Creating problems for a familiar being relied on heavily

[DMThac0]

I'm DMing a homebrew campaign with a player who took ritual casting and took Alarm and Find Familiar. The player's chosen familiar is an Owl, which for the most part has been more like a token pet with one caveat; the player relies on it to be their scout. Due to the advantage on perception checks the player has come to rely on the telepathic bond making the bird the party's scout. The player has also become fond of the Flyby trait in conjunction with the Help action to gain advantage on attacks.

In a previous session I had the owl shot out of the sky by some lizardfolk who were looking for food, and in tonight's session I had the player's meditation (too look through the owl's eyes) interrupted by a scuffle that happened to spill over on top of them.

Now, I am not one to punish tactical and/or strategic play, especially since I use tactics and strategy for every encounter I present. The goal of this post is to see what you Playgrounders might concoct to make this a bit more challenging for my player in the future when using the owl's assistance. Feel free to ask questions if you want clarification or any other information, thanks to all who reply.

[Bahamut7]

So far you seem to be reacting accordingly to the area. I wouldn't do it outright every time, but punishing players who rely on the same trick constantly is a matter of time. I would also suggest to have the BBEG start catching wind of a group that seem to appear shortly after an owl is seen in the sky. Ensure there is a survivor from their attacks that can report this of course.

[sir_argo]

My wizard has an owl familiar and we use him as a scout, as an adjacent ally for the rogue's sneak attack, and to deliver touch spells. It might sound like a terrific advantage, it doesn't really seem to be OP at all. The bird dies almost every adventure. Mobs do swing at him and kill him. Any AoE takes him out--I don't care what he rolls for a save. I'm lucky if he lasts the whole session.

As a DM, just have a mob target him with an attack. I mean, he's only got an AC of 11 and 1hp. Literally, a thrown rock does 1hp of bludgeoning damage, and that's all it takes. Any mob can just bend down, pick up a rock and hit the owl at least 50% of the time. How hard can it be?

[Sir cryosin]

Remember the help action is only for one attack if they are taking the attack action. Also it take 1 hour to cast it so they can't be popping it off everytime it dies.

[Giant2005]

Wait until the owl has been sent off scouting before ambushing the party.

[Beechgnome]

I used a familiar in a similar manner, and it too died nearly every session because it scouted too far or tried to do too much.

Because we understood the familiar to be the same fey spirit, no matter the shape, it became a running joke in our campaign, and our DM always had the familiar, when it was resummoned, cast my character murderous glares and carrying out orders with much reluctance. (But it did carry them out).

I think in a subtle way it made me take fewer risks with the bird, if only because I was trying to play a good character.

[Sjappo]

At a lot of points during their adventuring campaign PC's get abilities that trivialize some kinds of challenge's. And while it might be ok to deny the PC his ability to trivialize a challenge so the challenge is a challenge again, it should not happen often. Mostly those challenges disappear from the game.

Fly removes climbing challenges, water breathing removes under water challenges, teleport removes overland travel challenges.

The use of a familiar as scout removes surprise attacks and ambushes as challenges. Let your player feel powerful a few times by trivializing some ambushes and remove those challenges from your game. Your PCs have evolved, so should you.

[Malifice]

Owls can't open doors.

[sir_argo]

it too died nearly every session...it became a running joke in our campaign

Name him Kenny!!!

[MBControl]

Have an evil ranger "hi-jack" the bond, and use it as a spy against the party. Maybe magically feed dis-information.

[Galadhrim]

At a lot of points during their adventuring campaign PC's get abilities that trivialize some kinds of challenge's. And while it might be ok to deny the PC his ability to trivialize a challenge so the challenge is a challenge again, it should not happen often. Mostly those challenges disappear from the game.

Fly removes climbing challenges, water breathing removes under water challenges, teleport removes overland travel challenges.

The use of a familiar as scout removes surprise attacks and ambushes as challenges. Let your player feel powerful a few times by trivializing some ambushes and remove those challenges from your game. Your PCs have evolved, so should you.

He traded an ASI specifically to gain this ability. That's a big investment. Letting the familiar spot some NPC's waiting to ambush the group validates his character and increases enjoyment of the game. Now the party can plan a counter ambush, and everyone has fun. It isn't like you don't know he is going to use it, so you can just plan your encounters accordingly. If you simply remove this from the game, then he basically wasted an ASI and then never gets to use that ability.

Also agree though that the BBEG should eventually become aware of this tactic and can even use it to help him track the party if it is used too frequently and out of context with it's surroundings (owl in the forest? not so suspicious. Owl in the desert? Adventuring heroes are near!)

[NNescio]

At a lot of points during their adventuring campaign PC's get abilities that trivialize some kinds of challenge's. And while it might be ok to deny the PC his ability to trivialize a challenge so the challenge is a challenge again, it should not happen often. Mostly those challenges disappear from the game.

Fly removes climbing challenges, water breathing removes under water challenges, teleport removes overland travel challenges.

The use of a familiar as scout removes surprise attacks and ambushes as challenges. Let your player feel powerful a few times by trivializing some ambushes and remove those challenges from your game. Your PCs have evolved, so should you.

I wouldn't exactly remove them outright, even if they are trivial. Instead I just Theater of the Mind the party counterambushing the ambush and slaughtering them. Free loot and they get to feel awesome.

I do something similar for other encounters the party made trivial (flight against enemies without the range to meaningfully threaten the PC, Greater Invisibility on a Rogue with sky high Stealth against enemies without means to detect invisible creatures or doorways to retreat behind, etc) , if time permits.

Of course I do have to change up the encounters (and environmental factors) to meaningfully challenge them, yes, but letting the PCs feel like well, gods among mortals from time to time is something I (and my players) really enjoy. Everything just scaling up automatically feels like a Bethesda game gone wrong to me.

[Azgeroth]

first post!

i play a wizard, and i use this same tactic. Though to be honest, i decided myself to use the scouting tactic less, as i felt it was destroying to much of the mystery of the game..

ways to deal with this, remember the ritual requires a brass brazier, how common are those in your world? they are not light, or cheap so carrying one is not practical unless you have a bag of holding. also the components are consumed, how common is incense??

dealing with the actions using the owl,

scouting ;
if the 'enemy' is behind/under total cover, it cannot see them regardless of the perception score. something to bear in mind, of course you could always have it killed, maybe by a larger bird? maybe by some roving ranger, doesn't always have to be by some evil munchkin.

help action ;
now we know this has to be done with in 5ft of the target, and as the attack action happens after the familiars turn, it should have to hold its action to help the next/selected persons next attack. meaning it can't fly away untill its next turn (i.e. after the said enemies turn) perhaps that target judges the player who attacked a greater threat, but what about his friends??

other general ;
your familiar is not an animal, it only has its form. how good is it at pretending to be that animal? so potential nasties don't just stop and think that owls acting really weird... lets kill it to be safe.. remember this is a magical world, your wizard is not the first to use a familiar, warlocks also use them, and druids often take there form.. as a PC i know I would kill a random creature watching me behaving in a strange manor, why not the other denizens?? especially those of mal-intent.

as a rule, dont just stone wall the familiar out, talk to the pc first, then harass it lightly, if he doesnt stop then let the owl murdering begin!

[TentacleSurpris]

I'm DMing a homebrew campaign with a player who took ritual casting and took Alarm and Find Familiar. The player's chosen familiar is an Owl, which for the most part has been more like a token pet with one caveat; the player relies on it to be their scout. Due to the advantage on perception checks the player has come to rely on the telepathic bond making the bird the party's scout. The player has also become fond of the Flyby trait in conjunction with the Help action to gain advantage on attacks.

In a previous session I had the owl shot out of the sky by some lizardfolk who were looking for food, and in tonight's session I had the player's meditation (too look through the owl's eyes) interrupted by a scuffle that happened to spill over on top of them.

Now, I am not one to punish tactical and/or strategic play, especially since I use tactics and strategy for every encounter I present. The goal of this post is to see what you Playgrounders might concoct to make this a bit more challenging for my player in the future when using the owl's assistance. Feel free to ask questions if you want clarification or any other information, thanks to all who reply.

Sage Advice disagrees with me on this rules interpretation, but then again, it's sage ADVICE not sage RULING. In the PHB on page 175 it states that you can perform the Help action for something that you could attempt alone. The key word there is alone. The rules for familiars state that familiars cannot attack. Therefore if they can't attack alone, they can't Help you on attack checks. It just has no offensive capability or combat acumen to distract an opponent with. Otherwise Find Familiar with an Owl and Flyby is just permanent True Strike that also tanks attacks and needs to be refreshed for a token 10gp once in a while. It's just bad writing and bad design on Jeremy and Mike's part that allows this exploit. Trust me, I took this exact feat for this exact spell on almost every build. It's broken. Now as a player with a familiar I don't ask for Advantage on attack from the DM and as a DM I don't allow it.

Other solution: Every. single. bad. guy. is accompanied by its own bird of prey pet, one that can actually attack, that destroys your player's familiars and then provides the same bonuses for the enemies. Or give each enemy 3 birds to see how the player's like it. Remember as the DM, anything the players can do, you can do better.

[NNescio]

first post!

i play a wizard, and i use this same tactic. Though to be honest, i decided myself to use the scouting tactic less, as i felt it was destroying to much of the mystery of the game..

ways to deal with this, remember the ritual requires a brass brazier, how common are those in your world? they are not light, or cheap so carrying one is not practical unless you have a bag of holding.

Braziers can be quite small, really, like the ones that use in house shrines in some Chinese/Korean/Japanese homes.

Even Catholics have a thurible, which is basically a brazier with a chain attached used for burning incense. Some are designed to be swung.


also the components are consumed, how common is incense??

If the town has temples in it, incense SHOULD BE buyable.



dealing with the actions using the owl,

scouting ;
if the 'enemy' is behind/under total cover, it cannot see them regardless of the perception score. something to bear in mind, of course you could always have it killed, maybe by a larger bird? maybe by some roving ranger, doesn't always have to be by some evil munchkin.

While a scouting familiar is supposed to be at risk sometimes, having it be "always killed" conveniently by a larger bird is just bad DMing punishing a player for playing in a way he doesn't like. This isn't controversial DMing. This is unambiguously and objectively BadWrongFun™ DMing, yes.



help action ;
now we know this has to be done with in 5ft of the target, and as the attack action happens after the familiars turn, it should have to hold its action to help the next/selected persons next attack. meaning it can't fly away untill its next turn (i.e. after the said enemies turn) perhaps that target judges the player who attacked a greater threat, but what about his friends??

No, that's not how it works. Nothing says whoever used the Help action can't just move away (RAW). It's the action that grants the advantage, not you staying within 5 ft of the enemy. This interpretation is also RAI, see Sage Compendium Page 6 (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium.pdf).



other general ;
your familiar is not an animal, it only has its form. how good is it at pretending to be that animal? so potential nasties don't just stop and think that owls acting really weird... lets kill it to be safe.. remember this is a magical world, your wizard is not the first to use a familiar, warlocks also use them, and druids often take there form.. as a PC i know I would kill a random creature watching me behaving in a strange manor, why not the other denizens?? especially those of mal-intent.

as a rule, dont just stone wall the familiar out, talk to the pc first, then harass it lightly, if he doesnt stop then let the owl murdering begin!

If you have a problem with a player's tactic, have a chat with them OOC. Taking away their class features like that is just... bad. This line of thought is exactly what leads to things like AMFs and Counterspellers everywhere with spellcasters having their class features being arbitrarily denied.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

Have the Familiar Labor Union Rep show up and have the owl go on strike to improve working conditions
Give the owl something to distract it while it goes on Recon Missions (Is that A mouse?)
Have the baddies set up an ambush outside of the camp the owl finds
Have a group of Kuo Toa declare the Owl there new god
Have it captured and get its wings clipped so it has to be resummoned
Use the DMG rules on loyalty for the owl, if it gets low, then it will start doing a worse job
Wait for the owl to start looking over the area and then have the party ambushed by another wizard and his familiar (the bad guys have access to all the same tactics the players do.)
Owl Trowel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puUvD6VvFno

[Dr.Samurai]

I suspect Azgeroth means that the option *always* exists to kill the familiar, not that the familiar should always be killed when scouting.

[Azgeroth]

Braziers can be quite small, really, like the ones that use in house shrines in some Chinese/Korean/Japanese homes.

Even Catholics have a thurible, which is basically a brazier with a chain attached used for burning incense. Some are designed to be swung.

that did occur to me before posting, but at least in my mind, a brazier is large, the smaller variants are usually oil/incense burners. perhaps my understanding of it is just wrong?


If the town has temples in it, incense SHOULD BE buyable.

true, but not all small towns have temples, and not all small towns are fully stocked..


While a scouting familiar is supposed to be at risk sometimes, having it be "always killed" conveniently by a larger bird is just bad DMing punishing a player for playing in a way he doesn't like. This isn't controversial DMing. This is unambiguously and objectively BadWrongFun™ DMing, yes.



No, that's not how it works. Nothing says whoever used the Help action can't just move away (RAW). It's the action that grants the advantage, not you staying within 5 ft of the enemy. This interpretation is also RAI.



If you have a problem with a player's tactic, have a chat with them OOC. Taking away their class features like that is just... bad.
[/QUOTE]

fair enough, thanks for the correction. I wasn't trying to suggest he stone wall the player, just trying to give more options to deal with it. i did suggest he talk to him first, but if the player isnt willing to reason and the DM isn't willing/wanting to remove them from the table, maybe a harder handed tactic (not total stone walling) may convince him not to give it up, but simply not rely on it all of the time.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm going to agree with others and say that the player gave up other options (another feat/asi/etc) in order to get the owl for this reason & it almost sounds like the scouting is the biggest concern... Perhaps the player even said "crap, we are getting ambushed all the time, I'm going to solve that so we can do something more interesting". A paladin can sense undead & such within 60 feet, a rogue can find traps & unlock stuff, barbarians& most heavy armor classes can go head to head in melee frays that would send others running for the hills just thinking about doing it themselves... so on & so forth.
If you start pulling rocks fall/lightning strikes on the owl all the time, you are just removing feat they chose without being open enough to work with the player so they can find something else.
Instead of things like "oh no, a red tailed hawk snatches your owl out of the sky", try instead perhaps "the nine goblin slavers who were guarding that chain of human merchants you were trying to ambush grin & draw their crossbows as the cloth covering the wagons explodes around the eruption of orcs, trolls, & their drow masters". Perhaps the players are trying to sneak/run away from persuit, maybe even to help someone or bring a macguffin somewhere, "you guys have a reputation for following that owl... are you really going to scout ahead with it right now?..." If yes, maybe some of the bad guys are waiting for them inside $destination anyways.... if no, keep them appraised of just how big & well armed the overwhelming pursuit force is while they struggle to overcome whatever minor obstacles along the way as quickly as possible rather than risk being caught.

Just be creative & come up with things that don't involve "out of the bushes storms...", everyone will have a lot more fun

[Sebastrd]

Personally, I think its unreasonable to punish a player for using the resources they've chosen in exactly the way they're expected to be used.

Keep in mind that the point is for the players to win, and that some wins should be easy.

[Azgeroth]

I suspect Azgeroth means that the option *always* exists to kill the familiar, not that the familiar should always be killed when scouting.

indeed i did

some more ideas,

if the player IS constantly using the owl to scout ahead, or the area surrounding the players, give them some mis direction... such as other bands of people or even loaners stalking through the woods, perhaps towards them, or close to them who are totally innocent, woodsmen/rangers/messengers/runaways/fanboys.

some aspect of the terrain, such as an abandoned camp, smoke, blood trails, that lead to nothing and would not have been found with out the owl.

perhaps the bandits/orcs/nasties are paticularly well disguised, or only a very small number are exposed.

can you give us more information on the party in general? what level? how many pc's? what other classes? the standard MO?

[Dalebert]

There are times when the familiar will be at risk. He can take precautions like casting invisibility on it and such which is arguably worthwhile depending on what level he is and how many slots he has. That would make it a better scout and also allow it to assist while being less of a target and not provoking AoO (if not an owl).

Just don't metagame to kill it all the time. When enemies are being impaired enough by it, intelligent ones will conclude it's worth an attack to kill it. Other times it will be less of a threat than other PCs and not worth it.

This is going to be rather obvious to most but it needs to be said for some. The key to avoiding meta-gaming is to play the NPCs just like you would PCs. Stop thinking as a DM and think like a gobin or an evil wizard. You have your own priorities. The DM might be thinking "That familiar is going to keep causing problems for the rest of the game" but the gobin in the field is trying to cover his own ass. The familiar may or may not actually be worth his precious actions at that moment in time.

Bugbear sees the familiar assisting the wizard with firebolts. Eh, the wizard is still going to be shooting things with firebolts fairly well without it. I'll target the wizard.

Bugbear sees the familiar helping the rogue land sneak attacks. I can kill that thing off and keep the rogue from landing sneak attacks for maybe another round or two. The rogue's one-shotting us with those things!

[Hrugner]

The drawbacks for using a familiar aren't always those that involve the familiar being killed. The big drawback for the owl over the other birds, is that it's an unlikely bird to see out and about during the daytime. It's presence, if noticed and understood, should tip off certain enemies to its roll as a scout where a raven or hawk wouldn't. Assuming it isn't hiding, and is moving at full flight, we can bet on it being spotted every time. The knowledge:nature check to realize it's out of place should be fairly low during daylight hours, about 10-12.

[Saggo]

In the PHB on page 175 it states that you can perform the Help action for something that you could attempt alone. The key word there is alone. The rules for familiars state that familiars cannot attack. Therefore if they can't attack alone, they can't Help you on attack checks. It just has no offensive capability or combat acumen to distract an opponent with.
To Help an ability check, yes, p175 applies. Helping an attack is specifically an alternative, called out on p192, the same restrictions don't apply.



Otherwise Find Familiar with an Owl and Flyby is just permanent True Strike that also tanks attacks and needs to be refreshed for a token 10gp once in a while. It's just bad writing and bad design on Jeremy and Mike's part that allows this exploit. Trust me, I took this exact feat for this exact spell on almost every build. It's broken. Now as a player with a familiar I don't ask for Advantage on attack from the DM and as a DM I don't allow it.
Broken only if the table ignores or handwaves basic battle site risk.

Killing a familiar is trivial, as it's been pointed out several times. It's not perma-advantage since there's risk to the familiar, it requires proper positioning, and a dead familiar isn't terribly useful at scouting (True Strike is mostly garbage, not a good comparison), so it's not an exploit or broken. I wouldn't even call it overpowered.

Positioning a familiar and mitigating risks to its safety are tactical considerations and the investment to have the ability to get a familiar isn't small. This adds value to the combat experience, not trivializing it.



Other solution: Every. single. bad. guy. is accompanied by its own bird of prey pet, one that can actually attack, that destroys your player's familiars and then provides the same bonuses for the enemies. Or give each enemy 3 birds to see how the player's like it. Remember as the DM, anything the players can do, you can do better.

If you want to be petty, sure.

[TentacleSurpris]

Killing a familiar is not trivial. Positioning and battle tactics with it are. In this example I have an Owl familiar:

The own stays 30 feet behind me and on its turn, it moves to within range of the enemy, makes its Help action, and moves 30 feet back (or 15 feet in the air). It has the flyby ability so it does not provoke attacks of opportunity. So it cannot be attacked by melee.

An enemy could take the Ready action to kill it on the condition that it moves in range. The Ready action only lets you take one attack as a Reaction, not a full attack routine, therefore the enemy has already possibly lost his multiattack. But a clever player will notice the monster hesitating and not acting on his turn and looking at the Familiar, seeming to wait for it to come in range. In that case, the player doesn't order the Owl to descend and the monster wastes his entire turn waiting for a Readied action condition that never happens.

So now the Familiar is both Advantage and Crowd Control, effectively paralyzing monsters who think it's enough of a nuisance to attack.

If the monster has a ranged attack (many, many do not) then it can attack the Owl with that. If it can see the Owl, but it probably can't, because with 60 feet of movement and Tiny size it can probably find a creature or object to hide behind and get full cover. It will have Disadvantage (because I am in melee range) against the Owl's AC of 11. That's not a trivial hit for most monsters. Furthermore, not many monsters have native Ranged attacks. Those that have ranged attacks usually need to swap weapons to a shortbow or something, which deprives them of a melee weapon to make AoOs or to attack me with the rest of their multiattack action (as you can't swap weapons multiple times in a round). The Flyby ability avoiding AoOs make Owls very non-trivial to kill.

Owl familiars are NOT trivial to kill and provide Advantage on attacks or Crowd Control with no cost to Concentration nor to your action economy.

Then let's say the monster by some stroke of genius does manage to kill the Familiar. It readies its action and attacks the bird and hits it. In this case, you're still ahead. The monster has wasted its attack (more likely its turn) to deal 2d10+6 or whatever damage to something that isn't your party member. That's an attack possibly dealing 2d10+6 or whatever damage that isn't applied to your party. It's a damage shield with again, no action economy or concentration cost to you.

If Find Familiar is allowed to Help on attacks, it quickly becomes a necessary class feature for all characters who make attack rolls. No Rogue should ever leave home without it.

A party of characters with Familiars and enough time in town before the adventure to stock up on materials becomes game-warping. The DM will have to stock encounter will require back-line spellcasters or archers or beholderkin to deal with the flock of owls that are trivializing hit rolls. It's an arms race and 5e shouldn't feel like an arms race.

You noted correctly that True Strike is bad, and that it's a bad comparison, but you are wrong there. TS is bad because the action economy cost (1 action) and the Concentration cost are too high for the effect. Find Familiar gives the effect with neither the action economy cost nor the concentration cost. The comparison is apt because Advantage on Attacks is granted by both. Do you see how Find Familiar is really, really good? Heck it doesn't even have a spell per day cost, as it can be cast as a ritual.

Trust me, I've played characters with Familiars who could Help on attacks and it's like E-Z mode. After one or two sessions, I just told the DM I wasn't going to do that anymore. OP knows what I'm talking about.

[DMThac0]

(Posting from work so just a small reply for now)

First of all, thank you for all of the responses, there's a lot of stuff here to play off of.

Someone asked party info: Rngr 1 / lock 2 human, Monk 3 Blk-Dragonborn, Druid 3 Wood-Elf, Druid 2 / Cleric 1 Red-Dragonborn, Warlock 3 Drow.

Now in response to a number of you who took this as me trying to punish, restrict, or otherwise deny my player the owl, that is not in any way the purpose of this thread. Instead i wanted some interesting, funny, or savage ways to make this tool live up to the risk/reward from taking it.

I have rewarded the player's scout by thwarting an ambush once before, had the owl shot down in a lizardfolk swamp, had the rangers trance interrupted, had the owl follow a wagon of stolen goods to the thieve's warehouse, and I intend to use a number of the ideas here to make his familiar a more interesting story piece.

Again, thank you for such an animated discussion.

[gfishfunk]

Owls can't open doors.

But they can use the assist action to give you advantage on turning the door knob.

[busterswd]

Indoor fights, magic missiles, aoe, pretty much any dedicated ranged attacker with multiattack, environments where owls are an unusual creature (and stick out), terrain setups where knowledge of positioning doesn't help terribly much, spider webs (and giant spiders), Aarakocra villains, increasingly traumatizing fates for the poor hapless owl where the PLAYER starts feeling bad for using it as a meatshield...

Don't go out of your way to do things that are anti owl, but as you increase the challenge and change environs, occasionally the skys will become no-fly zones.

I also limit the telepathy to empathy, if the creature isn't capable of speech. So if the owl does get caught, the player feels waves of fear and confusion before a sudden blinding flash of shared pain.

[Saggo]

Killing a familiar is not trivial. Positioning and battle tactics with it are. In this example I have an Owl familiar:

I'm not going to go tit for tat on examples, because for every situation you craft where it's really obvious an Owl is hard to kill, I can craft one where it's really obvious even the Owl is dead. They're literally endless.

Full cover isn't as ubiquitous as you make it out to be and eat up a lot of movement to go around, other creatures are only half cover meaning even a measly +3 (which even CR1/8-1/2 have that) to hit and any improvised ranged attack still has a 50:50 chance, you don't get to know what what the Ready trigger is (maybe it's not the familiar, maybe it's you), and any save-for-half AoE will destroy them and you can Ready those too.

The simple fact is they only take one hit to kill, and every combat encounter has that. You have a lot of good risk mitigation examples for players, but ignored all the options hostiles have that create the risk even if the DM isn't meta-gaming to kill your familiar.

I know Owls are good. I use them too, so no I don't trust you. They're far from invincible when battlefield risks are being properly acknowledged, so to bring it back, they add to the combat experience, they don't trivialize it.

[Temperjoke]

One thing to remember, the familiar is considered fey, celestial, or fiend and not a beast (according to the PHB) so spells and effects that can locate or block those creature types will affect the familiar, regardless of the form it's in. Granted, it might not be immediately obvious to the enemy at hand, but someone who has done more research on the players, or has set up a variety of defenses around an area could take that into consideration.

[Erose]

Create problems for using a familiar as it's intended to be used? Help/Scout/Use to deliver touch spells, that's it's purpose. That's relatively akin to asking for advice on how to create problems for a Barbarian that rages. From some of the other idea's suggested, the Owl would be at risk of becoming extinct if it were to be continuously attacked on sight. I agree that smart foes would become privy to this tactic though.

[gfishfunk]

There are some good thoughts in here. I think it comes down to two basic questions:

1. What is the logic response as opposed to the penalizing response?

2. Can you create some encounters and areas where it doesn't work?

Any trick gets boring if it can be relied upon every time. If every encounter negates it, that is bad DMing.

[MrStabby]

So an enemy sees something that might be a familiar.

1) Is it an owl? If no, not a familiar.

If yes, is it daytime?

If yes, then it is a familiar. If no then it is still probably a familiar.


Yes the owl will suffer in a logically consistent world. On the other hand if any wizard ever takes any beast other than an owl no one will ever suspect it.



Just normal ranged attacks against any owl that enemies see when there is nothing better to shoot at will cover most of the problems. The owl will still be useful much of the time but will still need to be cautious.

[Zanthy1]

You say you're not one to punish player actions like this, but what it sounds like you're doing is exactly that. He invested a serious amount of his character into having his owl be useful for the party, and by targeting like this it becomes more of an attack on him as the player instead of challenging the character.

[Contrast]

Its worth pointing out you can still easily 'ambush' a party if they are scouting with an owl familiar (teleportation, invisible foes or traps, sneaking up from behind while the owl scouts ahead, disguises, being inside).

If a scouting owl is routinely spoiling your encounters then maybe you need to reconsider how you're making your encounters.

My standing opinion is that the flyby owl thing is dumb and (as a separate issue) is good...but not game breakingly so. If its really bothering you that much, ask your player to choose a different familiar/remove the flyby rule from the owl and offer them a rechoice on the spell/feat if they'd prefer not to.

[goatmeal]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm new to 5e and had one question: what does ASI stand for?

[Saggo]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm new to 5e and had one question: what does ASI stand for?

Ability Score Improvement

[goatmeal]

Thanks. I knew it would be obvious once I saw it.

[gfishfunk]

This is an interesting discussion. I'm new to 5e and had one question: what does ASI stand for?


Ability Score Improvement

Each class have ASIs at level 4, 8, etc. If you look at the class abilities, you will see Ability Score Improvement. You can either raise one stat by +2, two stats by +1, or gain a feat.

[Squiddish]

So an enemy sees something that might be a familiar.

1) Is it an owl? If no, not a familiar.

If yes, is it daytime?

If yes, then it is a familiar. If no then it is still probably a familiar.


Yes the owl will suffer in a logically consistent world. On the other hand if any wizard ever takes any beast other than an owl no one will ever suspect it.



Just normal ranged attacks against any owl that enemies see when there is nothing better to shoot at will cover most of the problems. The owl will still be useful much of the time but will still need to be cautious.

Exactly... nobody will predict the magic octopus! Nobody!!!

[Galadhrim]

Sage Advice disagrees with me on this rules interpretation, but then again, it's sage ADVICE not sage RULING. In the PHB on page 175 it states that you can perform the Help action for something that you could attempt alone. The key word there is alone. The rules for familiars state that familiars cannot attack. Therefore if they can't attack alone, they can't Help you on attack checks. It just has no offensive capability or combat acumen to distract an opponent with. Otherwise Find Familiar with an Owl and Flyby is just permanent True Strike that also tanks attacks and needs to be refreshed for a token 10gp once in a while. It's just bad writing and bad design on Jeremy and Mike's part that allows this exploit. Trust me, I took this exact feat for this exact spell on almost every build. It's broken. Now as a player with a familiar I don't ask for Advantage on attack from the DM and as a DM I don't allow it.

Other solution: Every. single. bad. guy. is accompanied by its own bird of prey pet, one that can actually attack, that destroys your player's familiars and then provides the same bonuses for the enemies. Or give each enemy 3 birds to see how the player's like it. Remember as the DM, anything the players can do, you can do better.

This seems similar to metagaming ways to keep someone from shoving with shield master or using their opportunity attack with pole arm master or using a lightning spell after they took elemental adept-lightning? It might be fun from time to time to challenge a player to find other ways to deal with a situation, but if that's a regular occurrence then that player is being targeted by his DM.

If every.single.bad.guy has a bird pet of its own do they also decrease their attack roles the way this PC did in order to obtain his familiar?

I have played in a game where another PC used a feat to get find familiar as a ritual and it did not break the game. Did it add something to combat and allow that character to do something new? yes. Given that he spent a feat to get it I would hope it did.

[Squibsallotl]

How about creating "problems" for the player (and their party) by allowing full use of the familiar's abilities and having it open up adventure hooks and access to information?

Example.

Familiar gets sent to scout an area, notices with its excellent night vision a burglary attempt against the party's stronghold (or the Inn they use as a base of operations, or the NPC's house they're shacked up in). Alternatively they might find out that someone they trusted is in fact an antagonist; the NPC who keeps sending them out on adventures is seen handing over gold and descriptions of the party to some assassins.

As a DM, you're using this player's familiar to rope them into an encounter you're prepared. But from the player's perspective, his familiar has "found" something you were trying to keep hidden, and the party foil the burglary or confront the antagonist.

Player feels rewarded. Party feel like the familiar is valuable. And all the while you're just using it as a way to introduce plot hooks that would have been difficult otherwise.

[MrStabby]

I don't have a problem with every bad guy having a bird, as long as that was some kind of faction theme. In fact I think it could be a cool kind of faction (lake a variant of beast-master ranger).

The is no reason why it shouldn't be a common spell though. It is powerful and versatile - I imagine is is a priority for most mages to pick up as well as probably being the most common ritual for pact of the tome warlocks, ritual casters and available to arcane tricksters and pact of the chain warlocks.

I would certainly give almost every enemy wizard a familiar.

[goatmeal]

Ok, another 5e noob question: why does it cost an ASI/feat to do this? My understanding of the PHB is that wizards can cast rituals of spells in their spellbook. What is the feat that is necessary for this to work?

[DMThac0]

You say you're not one to punish player actions like this, but what it sounds like you're doing is exactly that. He invested a serious amount of his character into having his owl be useful for the party, and by targeting like this it becomes more of an attack on him as the player instead of challenging the character.
You're right, it does sound like I'm doing exactly that. Which is why I also pointed out that there have been rewards for the use of the familiar to balance out the times that the familiar has been put in peril. I don't want to use these ideas in every single game, I don't want the player to feel like the owl is useless, I want the player to feel like it could be a liability to use the familiar in the same fashion repeatedly. Rather than an owl, how about an alley cat, or a raven, in a swamp you choose a lizard, there are multiple ways to use the familiar to accomplish a similar result. I am not punishing the act of using a familiar, I am using the predictability of my player to create situations with dramatic tension, or capitalize on a poor choice. I want to use the ideas here to create a narrative not take my DM Fiat and wave it around saying "I don't like your choice so I'm going to make it worthless". This is not intended to seem like an attack against you Zanthy1, I simply found that your wording created a perfect way to emphasize what my objective was with this thread.



...snip
If it weren't for my one druid already trying to be the comic relief of our party I'd try out some of your more amusing ideas :) but the loyalty suggestion seems intriguing.


Ok, another 5e noob question: why does it cost an ASI/feat to do this? My understanding of the PHB is that wizards can cast rituals of spells in their spellbook. What is the feat that is necessary for this to work?
Welcome to the Playground Goatmeal! The player started as a Human Ranger, so Ritual Casting is a feat that they needed to gain access to the Find Familiar spell. In this case the player chose to go with Human Variant rule, gave up 4 Attribute points and instead gained a Skill proficiency and a Feat at creation.

Now on to the ideas that I've managed to glean from reading all the posts, I have come up with a list so far that looks something like this:
- Use misinformation or useless information about what the familiar observes to give the players red herrings or
- Use the information the familiar observes to create a minor/major plot hook
- Have the familiar become a recognized tool of the party and, in time, use that information to give the enemies/BBEG forewarning
- Use terrain as an obstacle for the familiar's sight, hidden creatures or large amounts of cover could still prevent information from being gathered
- Have the familiar respond emotionally to the peril of being used in a careless manner
- Have natural enemies of the familiar harass it
- Depending on the type of owl, yes it matters, see if the enemies recognize that it is out of place at that time of day
- Have the Celestial/Fey/Fiend nature of the familiar become a restriction on where the familiar may go, or exist

I had the idea of having the owl captured by the BBEG, late game mind you, a Dimensional Anchor applied to the familiar so it could not be dismissed and pulling some dastardly deeds in front of it to show his overwhelming power to the players before killing the owl.

[Squibsallotl]

Now on to the ideas that I've managed to glean from reading all the posts, I have come up with a list so far that looks something like this:
- Use misinformation or useless information about what the familiar observes to give the players red herrings or
- Use the information the familiar observes to create a minor/major plot hook
- Have the familiar become a recognized tool of the party and, in time, use that information to give the enemies/BBEG forewarning
- Use terrain as an obstacle for the familiar's sight, hidden creatures or large amounts of cover could still prevent information from being gathered
- Have the familiar respond emotionally to the peril of being used in a careless manner
- Have natural enemies of the familiar harass it
- Depending on the type of owl, yes it matters, see if the enemies recognize that it is out of place at that time of day
- Have the Celestial/Fey/Fiend nature of the familiar become a restriction on where the familiar may go, or exist

I had the idea of having the owl captured by the BBEG, late game mind you, a Dimensional Anchor applied to the familiar so it could not be dismissed and pulling some dastardly deeds in front of it to show his overwhelming power to the players before killing the owl.

All good ideas. I'll add one more - once the familiar is established as a party tool/information source, use the other players' class features or backgrounds to provide a similar benefit.

Got someone with the Noble background? Have an old family retainer, or a vassal, or an allied noble provide that specific player some key information they can relay to the party.

Got someone with the Criminal background? Have an information broker, fence or colleague do the same.

Got a cleric? Their deity sends them some insight.

Etc etc. Balances the familiar's access to information. "Sure, he's got this cool thing, but you've got yours too."

[Saggo]

Each class have ASIs at level 4, 8, etc. If you look at the class abilities, you will see Ability Score Improvement. You can either raise one stat by +2, two stats by +1, or gain a feat.

Worth noting fighter gets about 2 extra and Rogue gets 1 extra compared to everyone else.


Ok, another 5e noob question: why does it cost an ASI/feat to do this? My understanding of the PHB is that wizards can cast rituals of spells in their spellbook. What is the feat that is necessary for this to work?

Most players that actively seeking advantage on attacks usually don't have levels in Wizard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, or Warlock to get it natively. You'll have to use a feat if you don't multiclass, Mage Initiate or Ritual Caster and pick Wizard, a not-insignificant opportunity cost.

[Anderlith]

Doorknobs

Other than that...? An ambush spots the owl & nets it. If your group is okay wih this level of horrible, after its captured, describe how it feels the pain as they puck it & kill it to eat. This should make him feel for it & maybe second guess sending it out all the time. To elaborate Im not suggesting being sadistic to the poor owl, just describe in a few terms how it is frightened & in pain, then it glances an ax... then cut to black. If your group isnt okay with this then dont do it. Just a suggestion on helping the player value the Owl more as a character & less as an ability, leading to more emotion & caution. I'd further suggest only doing this once. No reason to have the situation repeat.

[Mellack]

The drawbacks for using a familiar aren't always those that involve the familiar being killed. The big drawback for the owl over the other birds, is that it's an unlikely bird to see out and about during the daytime. It's presence, if noticed and understood, should tip off certain enemies to its roll as a scout where a raven or hawk wouldn't. Assuming it isn't hiding, and is moving at full flight, we can bet on it being spotted every time. The knowledge:nature check to realize it's out of place should be fairly low during daylight hours, about 10-12.

I want to point out that not all owls are nocturnal. Some, like the northern hawk owl and the northern pygmy owl are day hunters. Some will hunt both day and night. Many others will hunt during the day under certain conditions, such as if there have been a couple of nights of bad weather. So perhaps that nature check should be a bit higher?

[goatmeal]

Welcome to the Playground Goatmeal! The player started as a Human Ranger, so Ritual Casting is a feat that they needed to gain access to the Find Familiar spell. In this case the player chose to go with Human Variant rule, gave up 4 Attribute points and instead gained a Skill proficiency and a Feat at creation.

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm here to learn more about 5e before running a game in it. I certainly haven't read up on all the feats, so now I know.

After reading this thread, I kind of hope one of my future players has a familiar so that I can do all these fun things. And by fun things, I'm including spotting the ambush before it can happen.

[Hrugner]

I want to point out that not all owls are nocturnal. Some, like the northern hawk owl and the northern pygmy owl are day hunters. Some will hunt both day and night. Many others will hunt during the day under certain conditions, such as if there have been a couple of nights of bad weather. So perhaps that nature check should be a bit higher?

Fair enough! I feel like seeing out of place animals wouldn't be too hard, but if you were in a region with daytime owls I suppose bumping it up a bit wouldn't hurt. My table has decided that familiars are noticeably outsiders so I didn't put enough thought into it.

[DMThac0]

I want to point out that not all owls are nocturnal. Some, like the northern hawk owl and the northern pygmy owl are day hunters. Some will hunt both day and night. Many others will hunt during the day under certain conditions, such as if there have been a couple of nights of bad weather. So perhaps that nature check should be a bit higher?

I had the same conversation with a friend before making this thread, I hadn't considered asking what type of owl my ranger was using and figured this would be one more quirk to use along the way.



Other than that...? An ambush spots the owl & nets it. If your group is okay wih this level of horrible, after its captured, describe how it feels the pain as they puck it & kill it to eat. This should make him feel for it & maybe second guess sending it out all the time. To elaborate Im not suggesting being sadistic to the poor owl, just describe in a few terms how it is frightened & in pain, then it glances an ax... then cut to black. If your group isnt okay with this then dont do it. Just a suggestion on helping the player value the Owl more as a character & less as an ability, leading to more emotion & caution. I'd further suggest only doing this once. No reason to have the situation repeat.

I like the idea you're presenting here. I'd never use it however, since the familiar can be dismissed thus removing it from the scenario at any time.


Etc etc. Balances the familiar's access to information. "Sure, he's got this cool thing, but you've got yours too."
Good points, and something I've toyed with in my head but haven't had a chance to implement in game.

[Malifice]

Make a DC 15 Perception check.

You notice an Owl flying around the area.

(Make it by 5 or more) You notice it taking an unusual intrest in your group

Make a DC 10 nature check.

Owls are nocturnal. Its day time.

(Make it by 5 or more) This is no ordinary owl. There is something... 'off' about it.

[NNescio]

Doorknobs

Other than that...? An ambush spots the owl & nets it. If your group is okay wih this level of horrible, after its captured, describe how it feels the pain as they puck it & kill it to eat. This should make him feel for it & maybe second guess sending it out all the time. To elaborate Im not suggesting being sadistic to the poor owl, just describe in a few terms how it is frightened & in pain, then it glances an ax... then cut to black. If your group isnt okay with this then dont do it. Just a suggestion on helping the player value the Owl more as a character & less as an ability, leading to more emotion & caution. I'd further suggest only doing this once. No reason to have the situation repeat.

Capturing wouldn't work on familiars since the caster can just temporarily dismiss it to a pocket dimension by using an action. There's no range restriction to use it (and in fact can also be used even when both the familiar and its master are on different planes). At least not while the caster can still see through it.

Killing the familiar before the caster can take an action (and making the death horrible to make players sympathize with it) still works though.

Of course, a powerful enough caster can block dimensional travel to prevent you from dismissing your familiar, but Dimensional Anchor no longer exists in this edition so you would have to rely on long-duration precast spells like Forbiddance and the like.

--
Speaking of which, OP, how was the caster using his familiar to scout? Remember, the see through senses option only works while the caster is within 100 ft. (okay, technically he can use it while the familiar is within 100 ft., and then dash him out farther and still see through it until the start of his next turn). Beyond that he can't see through the familiar any longer, nor can he issue any further telepathic commands, so he would have to rely on standing orders and hoping the 2 INT owl could carry out the scouting mission (dismissing/reappearing after a set time if necessary) successfully, remembering what is important and deciding on what is relevant to report to his master with, all with only — I would like to emphasize again — a puny 2 INT.

(It is possible to read the 100 ft. restriction to only apply to the telepathic communication part instead of the whole paragraph, but this is definitely not RAI. Note the use of the word "additionally" (implying the restriction still applies) and the fact that they put the sense through option within the same paragraph instead of the next unlike the dismiss option.)

[DMThac0]

Speaking of which, OP, how was the caster using his familiar to scout? Remember the see through senses option only works while the caster is within 100 ft. (okay, technically he can use it while the familiar is within 100 ft., and then dash him out farther and still see through it until the start of his next turn). Beyond that he can't see through the familiar any longer, nor can he issue any further telepathic commands, so he would have to rely on standing orders and hoping the owl could carry out the scouting mission (dismissing/reappearing if necessary) and report anything important to him with only 2 INT.

(It is possible to read the 100 ft. restriction to only apply to the telepathic communication part instead of the whole paragraph, but this is definitely not RAI. Note the use of the word "additionally" (implying the restriction still applies) and the fact that they put the sense through option within the same paragraph instead of the next unlike the dismiss option.)

He's using the telepathic communication to get a "feel" for what the owl sees, never letting the owl out more than 30-50 ft ahead of the party flying in circles. When applicable he'll use the ability to look through his familiar's eyes, in those instances one of the party member's simply guides him akin to a seeing eye dog. Now that the Druids have learned more about their abilities, both players being relatively new to D&D, they have begun to wild shape into a mount. The player in question is, for the most part, the tactician of our group which has been a fun time since he generally doesn't take any actions that would put the party or his character in any great risk.

[NNescio]

He's using the telepathic communication to get a "feel" for what the owl sees, never letting the owl out more than 30-50 ft ahead of the party flying in circles. When applicable he'll use the ability to look through his familiar's eyes, in those instances one of the party member's simply guides him akin to a seeing eye dog. Now that the Druids have learned more about their abilities, both players being relatively new to D&D, they have begun to wild shape into a mount. The player in question is, for the most part, the tactician of our group which has been a fun time since he generally doesn't take any actions that would put the party or his character in any great risk.

Oh, so more like a short-ranged UAV instead of a scout then. Good in open spaces, but it does seem to be broadcasting the party's presence to anyone who knows what to look out for (intelligent creatures with experience or knowledge of Wizards, Rangers, Druids and people with the Ritual Caster feat. ). The Owl's perception (16 passive) isn't also unbeatable (although repeated +1 with advantage Search can be a problem), and it still might not see anything under thick tree canopies or anything else that can block LoS.

Heck, a lot of things in a forest would at least be lightly obscured with all the foliage around, cancelling out the owl's Keen Sight.

Also, if it's at night and there's no moon out, the owl can only see out to 120 ft (darkness treated as dim light), and everything he sees is treated as lightly obscured, again cancelling out Keen Sight. See PHB p.183 Darkvision and MM p.9 Darkvision.

[Temperjoke]

There's also the chance the familiar could get distracted by food. I mean, it may be fey/celestial/fiend, but it is in a mortal form, and most predator animals don't turn down the chance for more food, even if it's just a bite or two.

[NNescio]

There's also the chance the familiar could get distracted by food. I mean, it may be fey/celestial/fiend, but it is in a mortal form, and most predator animals don't turn down the chance for more food, even if it's just a bite or two.

I'm now imagining the horror of one character's familiar munching on another character's (owl on bat or rat, for example).

Does eating count as an attack?

(Yeah, wouldn't work by RAW though.)

[Addaran]

I like the idea you're presenting here. I'd never use it however, since the familiar can be dismissed thus removing it from the scenario at any time.


I wouldn't give up on the idea, just because the caster can dismiss the familiar. Seeing an ordinary owl disapear from the net (the weapon kind that have 15 fts range so close enough to notice) would give them hints. Maybe the goblins who wanted a snack freaks out and send one of them to tell the shaman that there is weird magic happenning. Or the orcs decide to put 2 guards instead of 1 for the night, because there's weird mystical animals in the area.

[gfishfunk]

How about creating "problems" for the player (and their party) by allowing full use of the familiar's abilities and having it open up adventure hooks and access to information?

Example.

Familiar gets sent to scout an area, notices with its excellent night vision a burglary attempt against the party's stronghold (or the Inn they use as a base of operations, or the NPC's house they're shacked up in). Alternatively they might find out that someone they trusted is in fact an antagonist; the NPC who keeps sending them out on adventures is seen handing over gold and descriptions of the party to some assassins.

As a DM, you're using this player's familiar to rope them into an encounter you're prepared. But from the player's perspective, his familiar has "found" something you were trying to keep hidden, and the party foil the burglary or confront the antagonist.

Player feels rewarded. Party feel like the familiar is valuable. And all the while you're just using it as a way to introduce plot hooks that would have been difficult otherwise.

Someone just trumped the entire conversation with the best idea.

That person is you.