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AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 08:21 AM
Okay, I am in this game that I actually like despite the corniness of it all (prophesied heroes fighting their way through tests of might to prove their worthiness, etc.). I don't know what I did to tick off the DM, but for my character's (Monk 11/Tattooed Monk 5) next test he has to fight his brother-turned-vampire (besides being a vampire, he is a 14th level Barbarian).

The only equipment my character has are an amulet of natural armor and some bracers of armor, while the Barbarian has the appropriate equipment for his level. I don't know what he has exactly, but I know we compared our ACs and attack bonuses, and he only misses me on a 1 when he is not power attacking, so my magical equipment isn't really going to help.

I was going to try to use my extra movement and spring attack to just stay out of his reach and try to take him down one attack at a time, but his 3/- damage reduction and 5 points of healing a round mean that even my unarmed damage of 2d8+1d6(tiger tattoo)+4 is barely going to make a dent in his hit points.

The arena we are fighting in is covered in a thick fog which reduces visibility by 100% when we are more than 60ft. (or was it 90?) away from eachother. Does anyone have any advice?

Thinker
2007-07-25, 08:25 AM
See if you can concede. A monk is hard-pressed to defeat a barbarian of equal ECL, let alone one that is far higher. If you cannot concede, trying to spring attack back into concealment is your best bet.

Iku Rex
2007-07-25, 08:29 AM
Feats? Tattoos? Ability scores?

Ivius
2007-07-25, 08:32 AM
I can't think of any complicated advice, but off the top of my head, remember the 1001 weaknesses off a vampire. Borrow the cleric's holy symbol, find some garlic, or get a Decanter of Endless Water (I think that would count as running).

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 08:37 AM
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Endurance, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Tattoos: Ocean (needed it at the time), Tiger, and Wasp.

Ability Scores:
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 6

I don't know what his are, except that his strength is a 29 when he is not raging :smallannoyed:

nerulean
2007-07-25, 08:41 AM
Repelling a Vampire
Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Pick up some garlic and a load of stakes. Stay out of reach and just keep going for called shots to the heart. At -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for the called shot, you're probably only hitting on a 20, but you've got to roll one at some point, and if you've got a mirror/garlic/holy symbol he's not hitting you back.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 08:43 AM
I can't think of any complicated advice, but off the top of my head, remember the 1001 weaknesses off a vampire. Borrow the cleric's holy symbol, find some garlic, or get a Decanter of Endless Water (I think that would count as running).I wish I were making this up, but I actually don't have access to my other party members and I don't have any way of getting more equipment. I was brought to a prison where they took everything but my protective gear (didn't have much else anyway) before I got to the arena. I'll have to check my character sheet though, because I think I may have a holy symbol. I guess I could use that to hold him at bay until all of his rage runs out.

Edit: Wait a minute, I think I may have a way of getting a stake.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 08:52 AM
Pick up some garlic and a load of stakes. Stay out of reach and just keep going for called shots to the heart. At -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for the called shot, you're probably only hitting on a 20, but you've got to roll one at some point, and if you've got a mirror/garlic/holy symbol he's not hitting you back.That might be my best bet, so long as I actually do have a holy symbol. I think I picked one up at the monastery, but I'm not sure. Then again, considering how underequipped I am compared to the rest of the party, the DM might let me slide in a common 1gp item without much of a fuss.

lord_khaine
2007-07-25, 08:53 AM
if he is a full vampire then i kinda think you are screwed, but for a start, to get past his damage reduction of 10/silver and magic, get some silversheen.

and called shots doesnt work like that nerulean, else you could kill just about anything by taking a called shot and driving a stake though its heart.

hmm, the garlic idea is good enough though, i would suggest throwing some out, and invest in a holy sling and some silver bullets.

Thinker
2007-07-25, 08:53 AM
Pick up some garlic and a load of stakes. Stay out of reach and just keep going for called shots to the heart. At -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for the called shot, you're probably only hitting on a 20, but you've got to roll one at some point, and if you've got a mirror/garlic/holy symbol he's not hitting you back.

DnD doesn't normally have called-shot rules. Where are you getting yours from? I believe older editions may have had them, but they got rid of them because it was too easy to defeat opponents with them.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 08:54 AM
Pick up some garlic and a load of stakes. Stay out of reach and just keep going for called shots to the heart. At -4 for nonproficiency and -4 for the called shot, you're probably only hitting on a 20, but you've got to roll one at some point, and if you've got a mirror/garlic/holy symbol he's not hitting you back.

Called shots don't exist in 3.5. Note that his rage lasts 3 rounds, as he has an effective constitution modifier of 0, and he can only rage once per encounter. So you can just run. Really fast. Now, as a vampire/NPC, he has (averaging, assuming no DM fudging, or crazy luck) 91 hp. DR 10/silver and magic, (Which, as the barbarian feature does not say it stacks, overlaps with), Fast healing 5.

You have 17.5 average damage per hit, which, on one attack hitting per round, barely overcomes regen and DR. On the other hand, you have 5 attacks per round. Assuming 3 of those hit (reasonable. A barbarian generally has low AC, even with +6 natural armour), you deal 22.5 damage per round which is not blocked by DR, and 5 of that is negated by fast healing. Beating down the vampire would take about 5 rounds, a bad idea when it's a +9 str modifier barbarian.

Nero24200
2007-07-25, 09:10 AM
The DM is pitting you against another creature ECL 23 whilst your 16th level? You have little to no magical equipment, whilst he has plenty. And the only real disadvantages associated with the race, are pretty much null here (arena fight, so no being able to flee from him by going into direct sunlight or throw a river)

Right, first thing I would do is tell the DM how much of a git he's being. If beating a challange like that was somthing you could do just by playing smart and using what you can to your advantage, you wouldn't be asking here for help would you?

If he insists on this happaning though (though personally I wouldn't stand for it) I'd say your best bet is either use the hold symbol to back him against a corner, it may count as a win since he would thereafter be incappable of fighting back. Another might be to try to break yourself out.

Funkyodor
2007-07-25, 09:15 AM
Frank, The spring attack thing won't work too well because the Vamp Barbarian should have about an 80' charge range. See if the DM will allow the heart piercing thing if you pin him in a grapple. Hmm, so if you can get a stake and if your monk runs until the rage ends, then turns around while the opponent is weakened and grapples, then maybe. But grappling a vampire is probably not a good idea anyway; fangs, claws, and whatnot. Pie is king, ya know.

Edit: But maybe he is just trying to make your monk a vampire or something by overwhelmingly stacking the odds in his favor.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 09:18 AM
I think my unarmed strikes are considered magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. I know he has at least a decent Dex modifier and some magic armor, but I don't know what his AC is. Thanks for pointing out his Con; that had totally slipped my mind.

Okay, so I should be able to hide/let him chase me until he runs out of rage. I might be able to use a holy symbol to keep him back if my DM is willing to consider my prayer beads or my tattoos holy symbols. I'm confused about the holy symbol thing though, it says that he has to stay 5 feet back and he can't attack me for the rest of the encounter, but it also says it is a standard action to keep a vampire at bay. Do I have to spend a standard action each round to keep him at bay, or do I spend a single standard action and that keeps him at bay for the rest of the encounter?

I should be able to hold the holy symbol (if I use the beads) and still get my full flurry of blows since FoB can include things like headbutts and kicks. Hm, if all of this works out, he may end up being the one hiding from me. I have a much better movement rate, but he will still be difficult to keep track of.

Dean Fellithor
2007-07-25, 09:20 AM
Improvised weapons: break closest wooden object and use it for a stake, stake the guy through the heart.





















just so you know: I'm talking about the DM (lol J/K)

Iku Rex
2007-07-25, 09:22 AM
I think you're screwed. Your best bet would be to use special attacks like grapple, disarm and trip, but you really don't stand a chance against an fully equipped epic powered (ECL 22) PC.

Still, if you decide to give it a go...

Trip: You'll lose more often than you win, but getting your opponent prone would still be a great help. (See below.)

Disarm: Again, you're outclassed, but if you successfully disarm the barbarian unarmed you grab his weapon. Move in, trip (+4 to hit), disarm (Improved Trip attack), move back. (Edit: If you fail to disarm him on your first attempt you could hang around and try again on the AoO when he stands up.) Then throw away his weapon on your next turn. Now you "only" have to deal with his slam attack and any backup weapons he might have.

Grapple: With +14 BAB and +9/+12 Str he'll out-grapple you even with the +4 from Improved Grapple. But if you can't get hold of his weapon a grappling match will still be your best bet. Try begging the kitchen for a garlick necklace to avoid the vampire's blood drain.

An ideal battle would be you hiding in the mist while the rage runs out. Then you buff up and move in using Listen. Trip, disarm, run away, throw weapon into mist. Then move back in, trip, attack. After this you're hoping for an unarmed slugging match where you get lucky with lots of hits and he keeps missing with his slam attack.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 09:23 AM
Nero, what really has me worried is that he may try to bail my character out deus ex machina style, which would honestly get on my nerves more than an unbalanced fight. Another possibility is that the test isn't what I think it is. Maybe it is a test of bravery instead of a test of might. He's done that sort of stuff before.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 09:25 AM
Technically, if he gets WBL for a ECL 16 char, it's a CR 16 encounter, one that you should have 50-50 chance of surviving.

Dean Fellithor
2007-07-25, 09:26 AM
I've had a bit more thought... make-shift holy symbols right around him might do the trick... then just stake him...

Iku Rex
2007-07-25, 09:26 AM
I think my unarmed strikes are considered magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.True, but they're not silver.


I might be able to use a holy symbol to keep him back if my DM is willing to consider my prayer beads or my tattoos holy symbols. I'm confused about the holy symbol thing though, it says that he has to stay 5 feet back and he can't attack me for the rest of the encounter, but it also says it is a standard action to keep a vampire at bay. Do I have to spend a standard action each round to keep him at bay, or do I spend a single standard action and that keeps him at bay for the rest of the encounter?Every round. That means no attacks for you. But it's still a good way to keep him off you while his rage runs out and you buff up.

Person_Man
2007-07-25, 09:26 AM
With that build, you're boned.

I suggest going for a roleplaying solution. Diplomacy is a class Skill, use it. Talk to guards. Form a secret alliance with his underlings. Bargain for more time by playing on his superiority complex. Find allies. Do anything to avoid actual combat.

If actual combat is unavoidable, convince/bribe/beg one of the prison lackeys to cut off a lock of your hair after you die and give it to your friends.

During combat, threaten to Coup de Grace yourself (and willingly choose to fail the Save). Although its not RAW, in some folklore vampires can only drink the blood of living beings, and if he views you as a coveted target, you may be able to use this against him to gain more time and options. Even if that's not an option, kill yourself anyway, just to deny him the pleasure of doing so.

After you're dead, your friends can use your hair for a Resurrection spell. Then you can seek your revenge.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 09:33 AM
Technically, if he gets WBL for a ECL 16 char, it's a CR 16 encounter, one that you should have 50-50 chance of surviving.I never really have understood that. He is a level 14 Barbarian with the vampire template, so he has a CR 16 but ECL 22?

Edit: You know, I'm liking the resurrection idea.

The Glyphstone
2007-07-25, 09:37 AM
ECL 22 due to his LA. LA is only calculated when it's a PC character, not an NPC, because of the fact that abilities become more useful when they're used repeatedly - as an NPC/monster/random encounter, the vampire won't be sticking around very long, but if it were a PC, it'd be there for a long time (Assuming it didn't die, that is), thus the LA is factored in to keep it balanced against normal characters.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 09:38 AM
Yeah. A lot of abilities that are of only moderate use in combat are extremely useful to PC's. Disintigrate at will? Ok for combat. Superb for PC's, bypasses many obstacles. Domination at will, creating an army of thralls, which can create further thralls? Incredibly broken for PC's.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 09:42 AM
Thanks Glyphstone and Arbitrarity, that is the first time someone has explained that to me in a way that sounds logical.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 09:48 AM
Walk in naked turn arround grabe ankles hope he was nice enought to bring lube.

Just kidding but seriously you are out of your league here. The mist will hurt you and not harm him, if I remember correctly udead don't see like normal living things, they see by heat/ lifeforce so the mist won't bother him. But it could be ruled differantly.

As far as I can tell you are outclassed on pretty much every level. If you plan on surviving you are going to need outside help period. Or just kill yourself like was posted earlier. The only other way I see it working is that he was your brother so maybe your DM expects you to appeal to that side in a diplomacy test not a combat test? However IMO that's not to bright because becoming a vampire robs you of all your human attributes so eh. That's my 2 cents.

Oeryn
2007-07-25, 09:48 AM
Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but is it possible that it's NOT a test of might, and instead a test of something else? Maybe you're not supposed to fight him?

Zim
2007-07-25, 09:52 AM
The CR 16 supposed to be a suitable challenge for FOUR 16th level PCs to encounter. A Monk vs. BBn Vampire is a pretty one sided affair in straight up HtH. The best way to survive this is to use your wits. The holy symbol idea is very workable. Just keep him at bay til the sun comes up. :smallsmile:

Barring that, avoid direct combat at all times and try to RP your way out of the situation. This dude is supposed to be your character's brother, right? Appeal to what remains of his humanity (I know there's still good in him, Obe-Wan). Monks can have diplomacy as a class skill, so use it!

Iku Rex
2007-07-25, 09:54 AM
The mist will hurt you and not harm him, if I remember correctly udead don't see like normal living things, they see by heat/ lifeforce so the mist won't bother him. But it could be ruled differantly.I should be ruled differently because in 3rd edition undead see just like everyone else. Rant on the subject. (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html)

Citizen Joe
2007-07-25, 09:57 AM
As to the rage durations, I think undead use their charisma in place of constitution for those sort of calculations. Not entirely sure if it applies, but look into it.

As far as tactics go, MAYBE you can outpace him and stay away until dawn. Then shatter some window shutters and trap him in a beam of sunshine.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 09:59 AM
Technically, if he gets WBL for a ECL 16 char, it's a CR 16 encounter, one that you should have 50-50 chance of surviving.
A party of four full-equipped ECL 16 characters should expend 1/8 of their resources on a CR 16 encounter.

A party of ONE full-equipped ECL 16 character should expend nearly every resource they have on a CR 16 encounter.

A party of ONE partially-equipped ECL 16 character should not survive a CR 16 encounter barring exceptional circumstances.

So, the odds are not 50-50.


Also, as a vampire in a fog, he can go gaseous form and come out quickly to attack with surprise, so just keeping away from him isn't a viable option.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-25, 10:06 AM
Maybe it's a battle like in Final Fantasy II where your character is supposed to face his/her "dark side" and you can win by defending yourself and not attacking? Because it certainly doesn't seem like a winnable battle. :smallconfused:

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:08 AM
Charisma replaces Con for all concentration checks, and that's it, according to the SRD.

Keeping away is a viable option, seeing as gaseous form has 20 ft move speed (oh noes!). Furthermore, vampires don't have HiPS, so if he goes gaseous form, as long as you observe him, he can't hide.

ravenkith
2007-07-25, 10:08 AM
Hrm...

How's your hide skill?

I mean, you might be able to hide from him, if he didn't spend massive on spot.

With the holy symbol? You have to use your standard action each round to keep it between you and the vampire: if you're keeping him at bay, you aren't going to be doing much attacking.

The vampire/barbarian is wayyyy out of your league. It's EquivalentCharacterLevel 22....(which, since this is a one-on-one battle, is the most relevant metric).

You should, by all rights, get thoroughly spanked.

...and you will, unless the DM is going to play him as really, freaking stupid.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-25, 10:14 AM
Have you thought about spring attack, then trip? Hard to pull off against a raging vampire, but if you can find a way to pull it off, you would be able to deal damage each round while staying out of harm's way.

Aside from that, you buy lots of holy water and use that with your movement rate to stay out of danger.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 10:17 AM
For those who need it:
(spoiler)text you want spoilered(/spoiler)

VAMPIRE
Vampires appear just as they did in life, although their features are often hardened and feral, with the predatory look of wolves.
Like liches, they often embrace finery and decadence and may assume the guise of nobility. Despite their human appearance, vampires can be easily recognized, for they cast no shadows and throw no reflections in mirrors.
Vampires speak any languages they knew in life.
CREATING A VAMPIRE
“Vampire” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A vampire uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below).
Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +6.
Attack: A vampire retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn’t already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the vampire retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A vampire armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires.
Full Attack: A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.
Damage: Vampires have slam attacks. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the vampire’s size. Creatures that have other kinds of natural weapons retain their old damage values or use the appropriate value from the table below, whichever is better.
Size Damage
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6
Special Attacks: A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire’s HD + vampire’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.
Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.
Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.
Dominate (Su): A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.
Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn (see the Vampire Spawn entry) 1d4 days after burial.
If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.
Special Qualities: A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Alternate Form (Su): A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. This ability is similar to a polymorph spell cast by a 12th-level character, except that the vampire does not regain hit points for changing form and must choose from among the forms mentioned here. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)
Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.
Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Spider Climb (Ex): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +4 turn resistance.
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
Skills: Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.
Feats: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.
Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–5), or troupe (1–2 plus 2–5 vampire spawn)
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.
Treasure: Double standard.
Alignment: Always evil (any).
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +8.

Vampire Weaknesses
For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.
They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.
Slaying a Vampire: Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

Citizen Joe
2007-07-25, 10:23 AM
As a monk, you'll have a significant speed advantage.

Although the barbarian can go gaseous, it takes a standard action, thus no sneak attack from it.

Monks have move silently and hide as class skills, combined with the fog and you'll have a bonus there. The fog is presumably NOT an illusion, thus it will affect vision of the vampire. The other side of the coin is a +8 bonus to listen and spot for being a vampire, but its based off wisdom. I assume the barbarian would have not super specialized in wisdom, instead dumping into strength and constitution before death. So, there's a decent chance that you can hide from him.

So the technique would be move and hide, move and hide. Then give him a false target. Move and hide repeatedly. He's likely to be chaotic evil at this point, definitely not a planning type. So he'll likely stay in the center of the ring trying to taunt you into attacking. At that point, you need to bide your time until a weakness opens up.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-25, 10:24 AM
You would have done better to post a link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

And you should at least spoiler that.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 10:34 AM
So, wait, a weapon has to be both silver and magical to overcome a vampire's damage reduction, I thought it was either/or?

Timmit
2007-07-25, 10:37 AM
How often does a vampire need to feed? Maybe you could just keep it at bay with a holy symbol until it needs to go somewhere else to drink someone's blood. You could say you won because he "ran away"...

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:39 AM
So, wait, a weapon has to be both silver and magical to overcome a vampire's damage reduction, I thought it was either/or?
Nope :(. It says "and" not "or"

Also, vampire's don't need to feed, literally. And furthermore, they don't need to sleep, unlike you.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 10:40 AM
Nope :(. It says "and" not "or"

Also, vampire's don't need to feed, literally. And furthermore, they don't need to sleep, unlike you.Actually, I don't have to eat or sleep either. I have the ocean tattoo.

Tyger
2007-07-25, 10:43 AM
So, wait, a weapon has to be both silver and magical to overcome a vampire's damage reduction, I thought it was either/or?

Nope, its "and" not "or"... thus in order to completely bypass his DR you need magical silver weapons. Which it doesn't appear that you have.

EDIT: Ninjaed!

I think the "you are screwed" group has it in the right here. There is little way you could, given the circumstances and resources, survive this if you are intended to fight. Unless your DM is trying to kill you off for some reason, I'd bet this is not a fight you are supposed to fight... diplomacy, hide, run like a mofo... hold him off with the holy symbol, wait for dawn. All feasible alternatives. Fighting him? Not too likely. All it will take is him grabbing you once, and that will likely be game over.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 10:43 AM
Looks like it's going to be either a really borring fight (Hold vampire at bay till he gets bored and leaves) or a really quick one in which you die.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:47 AM
Actually, I don't have to eat or sleep either. I have the ocean tattoo.

Ah. Cool :smallsmile:

Then stand still, keep holding him off, use move actions to talk or something, and keep droning on, and on, and on, until his lower wisdom causes him to be bored, or collapse gibbering.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 10:47 AM
I've maxed out my diplomacy, but the DM is letting a player take over the character for this encounter, so he may count him as a PC instead of an NPC, so no diplomacy check :smallfrown:

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:50 AM
Soo... ECL 22 then. ****.

Ok then, so. Hold him off until the other player screams in agony and surrenders.

Timmit
2007-07-25, 10:50 AM
Also, vampire's don't need to feed, literally. And furthermore, they don't need to sleep, unlike you.That's just stupid...

I guess that's what I get for not reading a monster manual since I stopped DMing in 2nd Ed. I'd still let it work if I was a GM.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 10:50 AM
I have the best idea that has ever come to me now that I know that

A: Diplomacy is out the window
B: He can hit you every round in combat
C: You can hardly hit him
D: He has you outdone in magical items
E: There are no acts of god

Bring lube.

ravenkith
2007-07-25, 10:53 AM
The more I hear about this, the more I have to think you're pretty much boned.

Unless you ask to join him....

become a vampire yourself....

and then stab him in the back the first time you get a chance, with the aid of your new-found powers....?

No, wait, that wouldn't work.

Violates monk alignment.

Boned!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 10:56 AM
How does it violate alignment? It's evil, it's planned out, thereby lawful, and evil, i.e. a monk vampire.

brian c
2007-07-25, 11:00 AM
Wait wait wait I've got it.


Build a house and don't invite him in.

ravenkith
2007-07-25, 11:00 AM
You have to ask to join him, and then betray him = not lawful. ;)

lord_khaine
2007-07-25, 11:02 AM
in the old days vampires had to be chaotic evil, these days they just have to be evil.

i think ill throw my voice in behind get a holy symbol, hold him at bay and wait until the vampire player falls asleep, or it becomes day.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-25, 11:06 AM
Reasons why you can't win the fight through combat:

- He hits you everytime in melee. Furthermore, everytime he hits with his slam (once per round?), you're gaining a negative level. Unless you have a way around it, but it doesn't sound like you do. In a couple of rounds, you won't even be good enough to threaten him.

- You can't hit him too much, and if you do, your average damage barely gets around his regen and DR.

- You can't outlast him even if you have a holy symbol/garlic. Rules state that he has to stay at least 5 feet away and can't attack you. However, he can just sit back and use his 'Dominate at will until you pooch your save' ability. You'll fail your roll before he gets 'bored and flies away'. Plus, he can summon swarms of rats or bats to kill you while you hold the holy symbol.

If there's no RP way out of the situation, you're either dead, or going to get Deus Ex Machina'd...


A party of four full-equipped ECL 16 characters should expend 1/8 of their resources on a CR 16 encounter.

I don't have my DMG for a page reference, but I'm pretty sure the formula is: 1 equal level encounter (EL, not ECL) = 1/4 the party's resources.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 11:06 AM
intersting question.. is the arena inside or outside? As long as you can hold him at bay and it's outside and since you don't need to sleep it could be a draw which I think everyone here is in agreement is your best bet. The only thing that could stop you is hunger.

Darrin
2007-07-25, 11:07 AM
So the technique would be move and hide, move and hide. Then give him a false target. Move and hide repeatedly. He's likely to be chaotic evil at this point, definitely not a planning type. So he'll likely stay in the center of the ring trying to taunt you into attacking. At that point, you need to bide your time until a weakness opens up.

If the fog blocks LOS at 60', then hiding is automatically successful and the vampire can't charge. He would have to spend a move action to get within 60', and then make a Spot check vs. your Hide DC (either as a free action or as a move/standard action).

Taunt the vampire into raging, wait three rounds (undead don't have a CON score, so the +6 Con is useless), the rage will wear off, and then he can't charge period. Assuming you can move farther than 40' to 60' a round (his wolf form has a speed of 50', plus fast movement), the vampire will be unable to attack. You can then spring attack him to 0 HP and stake him.

Edit: Ugh. Undead are immune to fatigue. Gah.

If you have a holy symbol, then you can repel the vampire indefinitely (the rules actually say "for the rest of the encounter" but the DM is not likely to buy that interpretation) as a standard action. You could then move away and hide in the fog, or just stand there and wait until sunrise. The vampire can't touch you or get within 5'. If he has no reach or ranged weapons, his only attack at that point would be his dominate gaze attack (range 30'). You can avoid this by wearing a blindfold or shutting your eyes (100% chance to avoid the save, and the rules for repelling don't state that you must have LOS, nor is there any "facing" required when brandishing the holy symbol), or you can just shrug it off with your high Will save (DC 14 + Int modifier... not generally a high stat for barbarians). If you need it, ask for a +2 circumstance bonus due to the fog, that gives you a minimum roll of 14 + Wis modifier.

You could also just Withdraw every round until sunrise. The argument then becomes: does the fog block full sunlight? Possibly, but it's much weaker than standard fog (Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud block LOS and grant full concealment outside 5', and 20% miss chance within 5'). If you can scrounge up a feather token: wind fan for 200 GP, you could disperse the fog in 1 round.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-25, 11:08 AM
Wait wait wait I've got it.


Build a house and don't invite him in.I think that is the most awesome thing I've read since Neville Longbottom was revealed to be a Death Eater . . . should I have put that in a spoiler?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 11:10 AM
Taunt the vampire into raging, wait three rounds (undead don't have a CON score, so the +6 Con is useless), the rage will wear off, and then he can't charge period. Assuming you can move farther than 40' to 60' a round (his wolf form has a speed of 50', plus fast movement), the vampire will be unable to attack. You can then spring attack him to 0 HP and stake him.



Ermm.. he can charge, because undead can't be fatigued, so post-rage, there are no derimental effects.

Wolfwood2
2007-07-25, 11:12 AM
Is there a way to cheat and get the rest of the party to help you out?

When you can't win within the rules, change the rules.

And don't give me any 'against lawful alignment' malarkey. You can get away with a chaotic act here and there, especially if driven to it by desperation.

Nevar
2007-07-25, 11:14 AM
Another good question is there any way the rest of the party can intercede?

martyboy74
2007-07-25, 11:16 AM
Is there a way to cheat and get the rest of the party to help you out?

When you can't win within the rules, change the rules.

And don't give me any 'against lawful alignment' malarkey. You can get away with a chaotic act here and there, especially if driven to it by desperation.

Especially since you are more loyal to your party than you are to the vampire.

Darrin
2007-07-25, 11:20 AM
- He hits you everytime in melee. Furthermore, everytime he hits with his slam (once per round?), you're gaining a negative level. Unless you have a way around it, but it doesn't sound like you do. In a couple of rounds, you won't even be good enough to threaten him.


Holy symbol or move+hide prevents the vampire from attacking. If there's no holy symbol on your character sheet, borrow one from another prisoner (RAW doesn't require the holy symbol to match your character's faith, doesn't require LOS or facing).



- You can't hit him too much, and if you do, your average damage barely gets around his regen and DR.


Monk fists are treated as magic weapons, so his 10/DR doesn't apply. That leaves the 3/- from Barbarian, which is manageable. The Fast Healing 5 is what really stinks.

Edit: OOOK. Didn't see the "and". Umm... ok, yeah, gonna need some lube.



- You can't outlast him even if you have a holy symbol/garlic. Rules state that he has to stay at least 5 feet away and can't attack you. However, he can just sit back and use his 'Dominate at will until you pooch your save' ability. You'll fail your roll before he gets 'bored and flies away'. Plus, he can summon swarms of rats or bats to kill you while you hold the holy symbol.


Holy symbol + closing eyes = no save necessary. Also, monks have a pretty high will save, possibly enough that even a 1 would still succeed.

The rats or bats would be mildly annoying but not particularly worrisome. The wolves might be more troublesome, but would be gone after several rounds of spring attacks or an hour of Withdrawals.

It should be possible to create stalemate, at which point the real question was whether or not the vampire was smart enough to specify an indoor arena. If not, then just wait til sunrise, and then argue with the DM about whether the fog blocks full sunlight or not.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-25, 11:26 AM
If you assume natural fog, it burns off in the morning sun.

However, if the arena is not enclosed, then the vampire could just fly up out of the fog, and since it is unlikely to be 60' deep, he could see the monk from the sky.

On the other hand, there's an assumption there that this vampire is not doing this of his own volition, instead he's been forced into the arena. If that is the case, then the arena needs to be sealed to prevent him from escaping via gaseous form.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-25, 11:26 AM
Monk fists are treated as magic weapons, so his 10/DR doesn't apply. That leaves the 3/- from Barbarian, which is manageable. The Fast Healing 5 is what really stinks.



DR 10/magic and silver.

Not DR 10/magic, or DR 10/magic or silver.

Therefore, no dice on easy bypassing DR, except with silversheen or something.

Now, with silversheen, you get probably 4 hits of 14.5, or 53 damage overcoming regen in a turn, or beat down in 2 rounds.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-25, 11:46 AM
Holy symbol or move+hide prevents the vampire from attacking. If there's no holy symbol on your character sheet, borrow one from another prisoner (RAW doesn't require the holy symbol to match your character's faith, doesn't require LOS or facing).



Monk fists are treated as magic weapons, so his 10/DR doesn't apply. That leaves the 3/- from Barbarian, which is manageable. The Fast Healing 5 is what really stinks.

Edit: OOOK. Didn't see the "and". Umm... ok, yeah, gonna need some lube.



Holy symbol + closing eyes = no save necessary. Also, monks have a pretty high will save, possibly enough that even a 1 would still succeed.

The rats or bats would be mildly annoying but not particularly worrisome. The wolves might be more troublesome, but would be gone after several rounds of spring attacks or an hour of Withdrawals.

It should be possible to create stalemate, at which point the real question was whether or not the vampire was smart enough to specify an indoor arena. If not, then just wait til sunrise, and then argue with the DM about whether the fog blocks full sunlight or not.

Yeah, so it pretty comes down to: what was the 'hero' lesson he had to learn if he just waits out 'till morning? It sounds like the DM is planning on a rumble (made a fully equipped vamp and all that) and might DM his way to make the fight happen regardless. If the point was to hide, then he accomplishes it, though. It does seem like the mist hinders the Vamp more than the monk (though the vamp can Gaseaous form to go invisible).

If the monk decides to fight (with silversheen), the vamp can simply ready an action to attack if the monk 'spring attacks'. That way, the vamp still attacks and energy drains the monk. If the monk does a straight up fight (the OP told us he can't hit the vamp reliably), then it comes down to who can hit who best. Monk's attack bonus is about: +15, the barb/vamp's is +21 (plus any magic weapon). Long story short, I don't think this is a fight the monk's supposed to win, unless stalemating 'till morning is the whole idea.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-25, 11:53 AM
It could be the lesson of water. Over time the subtle pressure of water can lay low a mountain. Patience is a virtue. The true warrior does not strike until the battle is already won.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-25, 12:29 PM
As far as i can see you have only a few options.

1. fight.... instant death, immune to stunning, close combat monster, fast healling, etc., etc., etc. - this is DEATH on a stick

2. talk.... might work if the DM lets it, only try this on undominated minions if you can find them, the vampire has no humanity, you have nothing worth taking and if he still gives a damn about you he'll just turn you into a vampire (that might be about the best way out of this)

3. Cunning trap option... garlic and holy symbols and running water, you are in his castle, trying to take him on with his own stuff, this isn't dracula and thus isn't going to hand you a silver holy symbol or any thing useful - file under sucky death of suckiness

4. "screw you guys I'M GOING HOME".... the only one that i can see that will have a chance of working, you're up against a guy that is suppossed to be a good fight for FOUR of your mates and you're the support character, you do however run reallyreally fast, use it. This is the option that works on te basis that survival is the test and the villan (who has backstory withone of your teams characters) will be a reoccurring character. He's so far out of your league that you couldn't see him with Hubble, let him eat your dust.:smallsmile:

Dairun Cates
2007-07-25, 01:53 PM
In all honesty, unless your GM cheats, holding him at bay with a holy symbol should work wonders for you. As a standard action, you can move or attack. Still, with the superior movement, an enclosed area, and a vampire that can't attack you, you should be able to back him into a corner and get him to run. From there, you can try diplomacy. If that doesn't work, turn by turn, you might be able to slow him down. It's also possible that your GM's not entirely evil and a good number of his Barbarian levels got replaced with Vamp hit dice. So, it might not be impossible.

Honestly, just act tactically, never let down your guard, try to go for the most peaceful solution, use the terrain (whatever it is) to your advantage, and hope for the best. It's not impossible to win. So, I wouldn't give up until the last bit of the battle is done.

If it makes you feel any better, the GM once ambushed our level 8 characters with level 12 or so rivals. All in all, a CR 15 encounter. The ambush went too effective and the GM took 2 of the 3 characters present down in the first round. The only one who got off some damage was our blaster Sorceror who half knocked down the bounty hunter (Slayers d20. Bounty Hunter = specialized ranger. Sorceror = wizard prestigue class that does best damage in game). The only reason my character wasn't out of the battle was because he was suffering nightmares and was fatigued from sleep. So, he couldn't exactly run, and his stats were down slightly. Still, I managed to use the very same element that let them ambush our party against them and managed to isolate them one at a time on terrain that benefited me. 8 turns later, my character was nearly dead, but he managed to beat all them. I'm not trying to brag here. I'm just saying that until you know everything about the battle, and until the dice have hit the table, you're not sure of how things will turn out.

Clove
2007-07-25, 02:07 PM
I think you need to take the advice given by others and hold the vampire at bay with a holy symbol until he gets bored and you win by default. This is obviously the only solution. Go ahead and diplomacize after getting the holy symbol out.

If the fight has no end until one of you is dead you might consider appealing to your DM's simple-minded and childish humor. I'm assuming this is the nature of his humor if he puts you in this situation and expects you to fight. You can hold the vampire off with your holy symbol and immerse the vampire in a steady stream of water by urinating on him... Might require a couple con checks to keep up a stream for that long.

cody.burton
2007-07-25, 02:13 PM
You can hold the vampire off with your holy symbol and immerse the vampire in a steady stream of water by urinating on him... Might require a couple con checks to keep up a stream for that long.

In one of my funny games, we had a character that was based off of this concept. The DM let him make a skill to keep urinating and homebrewed a few feats. (I think the character was able to do acid damage and blind people by the end :smallbiggrin: ).

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-25, 02:34 PM
The CR of 16 says this should be something like a fair fight (the kind PCs avoid like the plague, that is). If you had all your items, which you don't. And were as useful against it as the average party member, which considering the cleric-vs-undead deal and the things a wizard can do isn't very likely.

If it's intended as a straight fight, you've been grossly overestimated.

horseboy
2007-07-25, 03:11 PM
Does this remind anyone else of the standard video game boss fight. This seems right out of Soul Reaver. Watch for environmental effects inside the arena. See if the palisade that goes down to the "slave pen" is spiked and/or wooden. Stand in front of it, he rages, charges, you hold your action. When he gets to you, take a tumble action out of his reach, he can't stop in time, impales himself on spikes/splintered timber. Coup de grace, get the cut scene of your brother's spirit leaving tainted body. Roll credits.

Thinker
2007-07-25, 03:18 PM
I think you need to take the advice given by others and hold the vampire at bay with a holy symbol until he gets bored and you win by default. This is obviously the only solution. Go ahead and diplomacize after getting the holy symbol out.

If the fight has no end until one of you is dead you might consider appealing to your DM's simple-minded and childish humor. I'm assuming this is the nature of his humor if he puts you in this situation and expects you to fight. You can hold the vampire off with your holy symbol and immerse the vampire in a steady stream of water by urinating on him... Might require a couple con checks to keep up a stream for that long.

Unfortunately with the ability to summon this becomes unimportant. If you take the standard action to fend off the vampire you cannot beat his minions. If you take the standard or full-round action to defeat his minions then he destroys you. I'm assuming the DM has thought of this and it may very well be that he hasn't.

LotharBot
2007-07-25, 03:45 PM
You always have the option of saying "that was a lame encounter. It didn't really happen." and taking your character sheet as-is and going home.

BardicDuelist
2007-07-25, 03:56 PM
Actually, depending on the fluff you use, your tatoos could be holy symbols, which would literally prevent him from attacking you if you stand there and flex your muscles. Then pee on him. Even if it doesn't work, it is a valiant last stand :smallwink:

You could also make a tent out of your clothes and tell him that he is not invited into your clubhouse :smallbiggrin:

Nevar
2007-07-26, 08:20 AM
So any chance of knowing what happened?

BlackStaticWolf
2007-07-26, 09:36 AM
You have to ask to join him, and then betray him = not lawful. ;)

The request to join would be made with the specific intent to betray him at the first opportunity. It's not a haphazard (ie, chaotic) betrayal. It's a premeditated action that, in my opinion, doesn't violate a lawful alignment.

Randalor
2007-07-26, 09:57 AM
PC: I'm using my holy symbol to keep the vampire back
DM-as-vampire: Awwww... I just wanted to give you a huuuuuuuuug
PC: ... No

THAT would be a funny encounter.

Overall... yeah, sounds like you're pretty boned overall, you might stand a chance if you can disarm him...

Quick question: Would he be able to drive the vampire back with his holy symbol? He might be able to corner him so the vampire can't try anything that way.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 11:06 AM
Hmmmm, Adversus Vertias....maybe you still have a chance...

Try the following:
1a) if you have a holy symbol/mirror/garlic, stop the vampire's charge and wait for the rage to pass (he is in 10ft distance now), then go to 2)
1b) if you do not have a holy symbol/mirror/garlic, then outmaneuvre his rage (your hide, spot, listen, movement should be better than the vampire's; for instance ready to move 80ft away if he charges in rage etc.). Get him tripped with a reach weapon (if you can still get one, the -4 penalty should be OK since it is a touch attack) to stop his charge at 10ft away (your +8 vs his +9/+12 though).
1c) the bare minimum would be to let him only have one attack (assume he power attacks with his weapon, you take 50-60 damage or some such; would be bad).

2) Grapple!
Consider this: you have tiger and wasp tattoo. That gives both +1 to hit, and an additional attack. The wasp you can do, I guess, already 3/day for five rounds. Unfortunately, I am not sure about the activation time, but yet...
- then drop holy symbol, make 5ft step and you do your full grapple flurry attack first.
Your attack rolls should look like this (+11 base, greater flurry, hasted, tiger and wasp tattoos active):
+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+11
The vampire's grapple check value (after the rage) is:
+23/+18/+13
You have now 6 (!) attempts to overcome his +23 grapple twice to establish a pin. With the rest, you do your 2d8+1d6+4 damage (average 16, deduct 10, leaves still 6/attack)

- then the vampire likely full grapple attacks back. His problem: he has to break the pin first! (or uses gaseous form and retreat, which would be lame). So he loses the first (highest attack) on this, and then only has +18 to overcome your +21 (note that in 35% of the times he will not even escape the pin with the first grapple!). Not bad.

- Your turn. Again do your 6 flurries. Re-establish pin if needed. Do 6 damage on average per remaining grapple.
Eventually you might wear the vampire down and get it to 0 hits (when it has to flee to its coffin in gaseous form).

2 caveats
1) the rules are a bit unclear about the energy drain ability of the vampire. If he is grappling, apparently he can use its blood drain - but for this he needs to establish a pin, which needs 2 successful grapples agains your +21- not that likely.
The slam-induced energy drain is a supernatural ability. It is triggered by its slam attack - but likely that is not the same as a grapple, so it would not apply (the vampire would need to escape the grapple first and then slam, quite difficult to do in 1 round, because it would need 3 attacks- two to escape your pin, and the last at only +13 vs the monk's AC of the mid-20s I guess. And that slam may be even considered a standard action, so not even possible after escaping the grapple. Then the monk full flurry grapples/pins the vampire again).
2) I do not know how long it takes for the monk to activate his tattoos. So the additional grapple and boni may go away quite fast. And the tiger tattoo lasts only 5 rounds, anyhow. So it may get very, very close here...

Another thing the monk can do (do not know if that could be of any use) is heal 32 hit points over the course of the encounter with a standard action (supernatural, so even usable in a grapple, but he would be unable to maintain the pin then, highly dangerous!).

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 11:13 AM
Giamoco? Slams can be done in grapple, as natural attacks, at a -4.

How the heck does he get hasted? Interestingly, It seems flurry can be used in a grapple, however.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 11:20 AM
Grapple checks are opposed by the target's grapple check, not their normal attack progression.

So it should look more like:

Your attack rolls should look like this (+11 base, greater flurry, hasted, tiger and wasp tattoos active):
+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+11
The vampire's grapple check value (after the rage) is:
+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23

When the vampire tries to counter-grapple, THEN their attack progression drops while the monk's will remain at +21 for each.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 11:35 AM
@fixer: that is what was assumed above.

@arbitrarity
Hmm- makes sense. However, -4 would mean the vampire gets only +19 vs the +21 of the monk. That's already a bit better odds (succeeds only in 35% of all times).
Then, it is a big question if the slam that does energy drain (1/round) as a supernational ability takes a standard action. That would mean the vampire is not able to use it if pinned at the beginning of its round since it has to use a grapple check first to get free of the pin and then has no more standard action left for the draining slam.
The haste I looked up comes from the wasp tattoo which this tattooed monk apparently can use 3/day for 5 rounds each.

In all cases, though, the grapple route is much better than doing usual combat, since it negates the powerful weapon and power attack of the vampire.

- Giacomo

Thinker
2007-07-26, 11:40 AM
@fixer: that is what was assumed above.

@arbitrarity
Hmm- makes sense. However, -4 would mean the vampire gets only +19 vs the +21 of the monk. That's already a bit better odds (succeeds only in 35% of all times).
Then, it is a big question if the slam that does energy drain (1/round) as a supernational ability takes a standard action. That would mean the vampire is not able to use it if pinned at the beginning of its round since it has to use a grapple check first to get free of the pin and then has no more standard action left for the draining slam.
The haste I looked up comes from the wasp tattoo which this tattooed monk apparently can use 3/day for 5 rounds each.

In all cases, though, the grapple route is much better than doing usual combat, since it negates the powerful weapon and power attack of the vampire.

- Giacomo
While you have valid points, I cannot see the Vampire played intelligently losing. As you said, it can gaseous form out of the grapple if necessary. It also has its swarms that can attack while the holy symbol is being used.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 11:49 AM
Nononono, Giamoco. It's an attack roll. No opposed grapple check at all.

That's the annoying bit. AC over 29 or so? If not, that's gonna sting a lot.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 11:52 AM
I might go ahead and try grappling if it turns out the combat is unavoidable. Maybe the DM will let me try to stake him if I manage to pin him. I'm not even too attached to the character at this point, so I won't exactly be crushed if he dies, but I still kind of want to beat this guy just to show that it can be done. Oh well, the game is tonight, so I'll you guys know how it goes. I may be back here tomorrow asking for advise on building a new character; I'm going through spellcaster withdrawal.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 11:59 AM
While you have valid points, I cannot see the Vampire played intelligently losing. As you said, it can gaseous form out of the grapple if necessary. It also has its swarms that can attack while the holy symbol is being used.

Funnily, the gaseous form is a losing route for the vampire in this case.
It takes a standard action to become gaseous, then it moves 20ft away. This first draws an AoO from the monk who will gladly do a free full 2d8+1d6+4 damage (since now in gaseous form the vampire has only 10/magic damage reduction that the monk can overcome thanks to his ki).
Then it depends. Likely the vampire will move up (will be up only 10ft in that case since flying up is only half move). This is still within full attack range of the monk, meaning 6 attacks of the kind above. That could bring down the vampire to 0 hit points.
Or it just flew to the side, then the monk follows and attacks. Repeat.

Even if the vampire somehow escapes/flies away it will have to come back later, when the above grapple looms again. It could try to dominate the monk, but that monk likely needs only about a 2 or more to save against that.

The swarms may help, but they are quite low-level creatures and take a while to be there (2d6 rounds in fact which may be long enough...depends). The 3d6 wolves would be tough, though- but the monk simply would then try to evade them for an hour/until they're gone and it's back to the duel. Plus, the DM may have set this "duel" up to actually be only 1-on-1, so the vampire may then likely not summon any help.

I do not know whether a barbarian vampire should be played "intelligently". It depends if that vampire has a relatively high INT score. Otherwise, it appears quite in character if that vampire simply tries to charge and attack and drain. It may possibly even be diplomacie'd into "come into my arms, brother". And then the monk unleashes his grapple fury where the vampire would never expect to be bested.

- Giacomo

PS: depending on the weapon the vampire has, the monk may use that to damage the vampire in case it is silver and magic, but it is probably not worth it much...
Hope also the monk has some ranks in religion, so he will know at all about the vampire's weaknesses...

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 12:01 PM
Vampires probably wouldn't be carrying silver weapons

"Remember, down the road, not across the street. Oh Cruel, cruel world!"

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:03 PM
Nononono, Giamoco. It's an attack roll. No opposed grapple check at all.

That's the annoying bit. AC over 29 or so? If not, that's gonna sting a lot.

Darn, that's true. Still, the vampire has to grapple check first to get out of a pin. And then it is only its second iterative attack at -4 available vs that strike. The monk's AC is probably around DEX+WIS+3(monk)+amulet+bracers. Whatever. Could well be 29.
And then the big question is if that supernatural ability use constitutes a standard action. Which would mean if pinned, no drain.

@AdversusVeritas: good luck tonight! Think about it this way: if you grapple and win, it will be all the sweeter (since grappling is supposed to be the typical vampire thing with blood drain and all...). And try to trick the vampire into assuming gaseous form...the look on your fellow player's face when you then full attack since he is only protected vs magic and not silver anymore would be priceless...:smallcool:

- Giacomo

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 12:03 PM
Hope also the monk has some ranks in religion, so he will know at all about the vampire's weaknesses...He does, and he has been specifically studying them ever since his brother got turned.

lord_khaine
2007-07-26, 12:08 PM
then do everything you can to get your hands on some silversheen (or some silversheen on your hands) the odds are bad enough without having to bother with the silver part of his damage reduction.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 12:15 PM
Darn, that's true. Still, the vampire has to grapple check first to get out of a pin. And then it is only its second iterative attack at -4 available vs that strike. The monk's AC is probably around DEX+WIS+3(monk)+amulet+bracers. Whatever. Could well be 29.
And then the big question is if that supernatural ability use constitutes a standard action. Which would mean if pinned, no drain.

@AdversusVeritas: good luck tonight! Think about it this way: if you grapple and win, it will be all the sweeter (since grappling is supposed to be the typical vampire thing with blood drain and all...). And try to trick the vampire into assuming gaseous form...the look on your fellow player's face when you then full attack since he is only protected vs magic and not silver anymore would be priceless...:smallcool:

- Giacomo
Actually, that is a good point. With AC 29 or so, vampire has a 25% chance of hitting each round, monk has a good ummm...(thinks about statistics)

Ok, so 400 potentialities. 3 higher, so 20 17, through 4 1, so 153/400 that he wins, so... 4 attacks at maximum BAB, (247/400)^4 is 0.14539. Therefore, each round, you have better than 85% odds of pinning the vampire in 4 attacks. 77% odds of pinning in 3 attacks, 62% odds of pinning in 2 attacks, 38.25% odds of pinning in one attack. Depending on opponent AC, you have pretty good odds of dealing some damage.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:20 PM
He does, and he has been specifically studying them ever since his brother got turned.

Ah, that's good. Some last ideas
- if the vampire uses alternate form to a dire wolf while grappling, for instance, this will raise his grapple check by +2 (+4 for being large, -2 for lower STR). On the other hand, he can no longer drain you with a slam since he lost the slam attack. More importantly, in this case his creature type changes to animal and you can stun/flurry him! yeah...:smallbiggrin:
- while pinning you can prevent the vampire from speaking- this may stop him (depending on DM's interpretation) from calling/summoning the swarms...(and since it is a supernatural ability that takes a standard action, he cannot do it after he uses a grapple to escape the pin).

Good luck & let us know about the outcome...

- Giacomo

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 12:22 PM
I know this is a newb question, but what should his hitpoints be?

Edit: A lot of this battle is going to depend on whether the DM rules that energy drain is a standard action or not.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:25 PM
Not that much anymore, since he has no more CON bonus. So it is 14d12, or roughly 91 on average (likely a vampire does not get full hit points at the beginning). Probably your monk has more hits...

- Giacomo

EDIT: just noticed, the drain should still work in dire wolf form, since it is also triggered by natural attacks. Darn! Still, the stun should be nice since you go first (after the vampire has used its standard action for the round). Your stunning fist DC should be at around 22; which is not bad vs someone with no CON modifier to his fort save of likely +9.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:33 PM
Edit: A lot of this battle is going to depend on whether the DM rules that energy drain is a standard action or not.

Ah, this might save you: according to the SRD (likely also the PHB), table on standard actions, the use of a supernatural ability takes a standard action.

So, you have a chance!

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 12:34 PM
It's not a supernatural action. It's a side effect of an attack action, so unless you're really good at scamming the DM, no dice.

On top of that, the ability explicity says it can be used once per round. If it's a standard action, that makes no sense at ALL.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:35 PM
Actually, that is a good point. With AC 29 or so, vampire has a 25% chance of hitting each round, monk has a good ummm...(thinks about statistics)

Ok, so 400 potentialities. 3 higher, so 20 17, through 4 1, so 153/400 that he wins, so... 4 attacks at maximum BAB, (247/400)^4 is 0.14539. Therefore, each round, you have better than 85% odds of pinning the vampire in 4 attacks. 77% odds of pinning in 3 attacks, 62% odds of pinning in 2 attacks, 38.25% odds of pinning in one attack. Depending on opponent AC, you have pretty good odds of dealing some damage.

Wow, this overwhelms my math brain. Still- pinning with one attack is not possible, you need at least 2 successful grapples. But 85% sounds impressive.
Could you also calculate how likely it is that the vampire escapes the pin with its 3 grapple attempts? Looks like AdversusVeritas has a chance after all...(and if he wins this encounter, he can expect to go up a level from the sheer XP alone...)

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:38 PM
It's not a supernatural action. It's a side effect of an attack action, so unless you're really good at scamming the DM, no dice.

On top of that, the ability explicity says it can be used once per round. If it's a standard action, that makes no sense at ALL.

It has the abbreviation (su) attached to it, so it is a supernatural ability and thus needs a standard action. The limit 1/round is probably there to avoid vampires to do more than 1 drain per round if they happen to have more than 1 standard action (which would be quite tough). In core, that would be possible for 17th level & up wizard vampires who used shapechange to shape into a choker...outside core, it can be done with belt of battle or celerity.

- Giacomo

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 12:43 PM
I'm just worried the DM will consider the "creatures hit by a vampire spawn’s slam attack gain one negative level" as an "otherwise noted." I must admit that the way the ability is written, I have no idea how it works.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 12:43 PM
True, I was counting within a round where they were grappling.

Ok, so vamp has 23/18/13
Vs 21/21/21.

Let's see. 247/400 on the first, 136/400 on second, 66/400 on last. Therefore, odds of breaking out total are 1 - (153*264*334/64000000), which is Ow.. 79%.

And that's NOT how that's supposed to work. Let's find something... Ok, a Ice devil.
Slow (Su)
A hit from an ice devil’s tail or spear induces numbing cold. The opponent must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be affected as though by a slow spell for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.


Spear +20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/×3 plus slow)

Or even the example vampires in the MM. Take the elite vampire, which has in it's full attack damage for unarmed strikes "1d10+5 plus energy drain", in the FULL attack, not the standard action attack.

You might be able to pull it off, but it's clearly not the intent.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-26, 12:49 PM
It has the abbreviation (su) attached to it, so it is a supernatural ability and thus needs a standard action. The limit 1/round is probably there to avoid vampires to do more than 1 drain per round if they happen to have more than 1 standard action (which would be quite tough). In core, that would be possible for 17th level & up wizard vampires who used shapechange to shape into a choker...outside core, it can be done with belt of battle or celerity.

- Giacomo

C'mon... read the ability. It's painfully obvious that the energy drain 'piggybacks' onto his attacks, and doesn't require a seperate standard action to use.



Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.




Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.

The reason they stat 'once per round' is in the case of a vampire monk with 6 attacks, or a vamp with 2 claws and a bite doing multiple drains per round. So whenever this vamp hits you with a slam, you gain 2 negative levels. If you're going to try to get in close and fight this thing, you CANNOT let him hit you with a slam. Just one hit and you're toast.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 12:53 PM
Isn't there a save for the energy drain?

Darrin
2007-07-26, 12:56 PM
Edit: A lot of this battle is going to depend on whether the DM rules that energy drain is a standard action or not.

Hmm. That's not entirely clear. From the SRD:

"Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted."

The Vampire's energy drain description doesn't explicitly say it's a free action, but it does say it can be combined with a slam attack or natural attack, and since you only get one standard action a round... I guess the real question is can the vampire full-attack, and if any of those attacks hit, can he then use energy drain as a free action? Otherwise, the vampire would get only one attack roll to use his energy drain. By RAW, I think the vampire is stuck with one slam+energy drain attempt per round as a standard action.

If the vampire was grappled, he could use his slam attack or another natural attack at -4. The good news is if he just made an unarmed attack to avoid the -4, it shouldn't trigger the energy drain because unless you're a monk, an unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack. He'd do 1d3 subdual damage as a normal medium humanoid. The bad news is if the vampire wasn't pinned, then he could use his blood drain ability (1d4 con damage, gain 5 temp HP) as a free action... but apparently only once a round, since you can't re-pin someone who's already pinned (well, not exactly, you can release a pin as a free action, but that ends the grapple, which would have to be re-started).

Ugh. The grapple rules make my head hurt.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 12:58 PM
I'm just worried the DM will consider the "creatures hit by a vampire spawn’s slam attack gain one negative level" as an "otherwise noted." I must admit that the way the ability is written, I have no idea how it works.

Hmmm- where is that quote from? Hmm, it is really tough. Normally supernatural abilities take 1 standard action to use.
In this description, though, the drain is part of the slam (at most 1/round). So it could be used with any of the three iterative slam attacks. Hmmm. Maybe try to convince your DM BEFORE the combat as long as it does not appear that you have much of a chance, anyhow.
It looks like just a small concession, but it could be vital.

And even if it is not considered a standard action... if the vampyre escapes the lock (thanks for the math Arbitrarity!), it will have to slam at -4 with its lower iterative attac (+18). So only +14 vs your AC of ?? 29? (remember to add your haste bonus of +1). And if it did not get free out of the pin with the first grapple, that is only +9 (necessitating a 20 to hit in that case!).You COULD survive long enough....if the vampire thinks you become a nuisance with grapple it could make the heavy mistake of either becoming gaseous or a dire wolf, when it will be more vulnerable to your other attacks. Seriously, it is quite likely that the vampire barbarian has no idea about monk abilties. His (still mortal) brother is unarmed. What is there to fear? :smallwink:

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 01:05 PM
wow, instantly 3 more posts...

@AdversusVeritas: no, there is no save vs energy drain.

@Darrin: for the blood drain, the vampire will have to establish a pin. For this, he has to first escape the pin and then overcome the monk's +21 grapple with two of its own at +18/+13. Highly unlikely. A better tactics for the vampyre is to slam (-4) while in a grapple (once free from the pin) and then do the negative levels. CON loss is not that good, although the monk's opponent might roleplay the vampyre barbarian brother this way (wishing to taste his brother's blood!).

@SpikeFightWicky&Darrin: the drain thing-what-action-time is tricky, but likely now I would also go with SpikeFightWicky's interpretation.
Hope still that the DM will use the interpretation in favour of the monk...otherwise highly dangerous to grapple, but the best chance still- if a pin is established (and the monk can do the full attack first for reasons outlined above), then he has a good chance that the vampyre will not hit with its drain for some rounds, and then gets impatient (it's an undead chaotic evil barbarian, after all) and turns into a dire wolf. And then...it's stunning time!

- Giaocomo

Tyger
2007-07-26, 01:07 PM
I think he's referring to the unless otherwise noted portion of the supernatural abilities as standard actions portion. The exact quote is:


From the SRD
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise

So its quite arguable that the Energy Drain ability is an otherwise noted one, as it only engages during a slam attack. And you can't slam and then take another standard action. The once per round is just a qualifier so that the vamp can't slam four opponents in one round, or even worse, one opponent four times. Youch.

But I think you've already really touched on this above. Either way, it would seem that the intention is that the energy drain is an "otherwise noted" ability.

EDIT: Ninjaed!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:09 PM
247/400 of escaping pin in one go, followed by 45% chance of sucessful pin. 28% chance of escaping pin, then pinning.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 01:16 PM
What scares me is that, even with the threat of the vampire's slam attack, grappling is looking like a better option than spring attacking. At least he has that -4 for using a natural attack in a grapple, and he'll have less attacks than I do. Hopefully I can hold him off with a holy symbol until his rage runs out, keep close to him, and then try to pin him. If I'm lucky, he'll panic and use gaseous form.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:17 PM
What's your AC?

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 01:24 PM
What scares me is that, even with the threat of the vampire's slam attack, grappling is looking like a better option than spring attacking.

It should not scare you- be courageous and pin/grapple him into gaseous form! That will show him...

- Giacomo

Edit: you could while grappling him taunt him roleplaying-wise and say stuff like "so that is the only thing vampires can do? Get grappled and squished? HA!" And then the barbarian vampyre may become angry enough to turn into a dire wolf or take gaseous form...which would be better for you

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-26, 01:26 PM
What scares me is that, even with the threat of the vampire's slam attack, grappling is looking like a better option than spring attacking. At least he has that -4 for using a natural attack in a grapple, and he'll have less attacks than I do. Hopefully I can hold him off with a holy symbol until his rage runs out, keep close to him, and then try to pin him. If I'm lucky, he'll panic and use gaseous form.

As far as I'm concerned, spring attacking is the 2nd most dangerous stunt to pull (most dangerous being a 1 vs 1 slugfest). The vamp can use readied actions to attack you as soon as you get close enough for him to hit, and since it's a readied action, it goes before your attack. So your first attack may be subjected to 2 negative levels.

I think your AC will play a big part in what you should do. His average attack role with the -4 will hit an AC of 29-30.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 01:27 PM
Ach, if only the fog would also count as concealment in close combat...would mean miss chance for his slam, but you could use your grapple damage as normal...

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:29 PM
As far as I'm concerned, spring attacking is the 2nd most dangerous stunt to pull (most dangerous being a 1 vs 1 slugfest). The vamp can use readied actions to attack you as soon as you get close enough for him to hit, and since it's a readied action, it goes before your attack. So your first attack may be subjected to 2 negative levels.

I think your AC will play a big part in what you should do. His average attack role with the -4 will hit an AC of 29-30.

Actually, no, given that he has to escape from pin with his first iterative attack, so roughly a 15% chance of pulling of a successful slam with AC 29.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 01:32 PM
I have been thinking about my half-orc fighter build that no one wants to comment on _grumble_ and if you can take him prone with Improved Trip first he takes a -4 on all melee attacks. This includes grapple attempts as they are listed as: "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll."

Best part is, if you use Improved Trip you don't actually lose that attack because it gives you another one for free. :)

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 01:35 PM
That's what makes things even worse: my AC is only a 25 (+3 from Dex, +4 from Wis, +3 class AC bonus, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Bracers of Armor, +1 from Dodge, and +1 from Haste).

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:36 PM
Monk has +8 on trip checks, vampire has +9. However, the problem is that with those odds of failure, the vampire then owns you after you try it.

Also, I remembered suddenly that I misrepresented the odds slightly, forgot about tieing rules, counted them as nothing happening. If anyone wants me to redo those, I can.

Try and get more than 6K worth of magic items at level 16. That makes my brain hurt.

Also, knowing your luck, vampire boy has a ring of freedom of movement.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 01:37 PM
So, strategy.

Keep him at bay until he's out of rages.
Close distance and do a trip attack, charging if you have to. Follow that up with a disarm.
If he provokes just smack him once. Regardless if he tries to grab his weapon or stand, you are now right next to him.
Your next action is the full attack flurry to trip & grapple, pin, sustain.
Rinse, lather, repeat.


Edit: Oh, crap. I was hoping his trip modifier was higher. My bad, ignore me. :)

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-26, 01:37 PM
Actually, no, given that he has to escape from pin with his first iterative attack, so roughly a 15% chance of pulling of a successful slam with AC 29.

Ok, assuming a pin, then it gets a little easier, but AC 29 seems a few points too high for the monk. Depending on his equipment:

level 16... +4 Nat armor amulet and +6 bracers of armor? That gives:
10 + 3 dex + 4 wis + 3 monk + 4 nat armor + 6 armor = 30 - 31 with haste.

So second attack (+15 attack bonus after mods) hits 25-26 AC on average. So it's workable (though one slam and you're likely toast). Under regular circumstances, you should be good very well off in a grapple... It would be awesome if you could pin him, then stake him. It could potentially be over in a few of rounds.


EDIT


That's what makes things even worse: my AC is only a 25 (+3 from Dex, +4 from Wis, +3 class AC bonus, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Bracers of Armor, +1 from Dodge, and +1 from Haste).

Ouch... why do you have such crappy items? Your DM realises that you're level 16?

Krellen
2007-07-26, 01:38 PM
That's what makes things even worse: my AC is only a 25 (+3 from Dex, +4 from Wis, +3 class AC bonus, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +2 Bracers of Armor, +1 from Dodge, and +1 from Haste).
You only have a +1 amulet and +2 bracers?

Time to talk to this DM. Tell him you don't see a way out, and point out that a fully-equipped 16th level NPC is going to outclass any 16th level PC that has the gear of a 5th level character.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:40 PM
So, strategy.

Keep him at bay until he's out of rages.
Close distance and do a trip attack, charging if you have to. Follow that up with a disarm.
If he provokes just smack him once. Regardless if he tries to grab his weapon or stand, you are now right next to him.
Your next action is the full attack flurry to trip & grapple, pin, sustain.
Rinse, lather, repeat.


Edit: Oh, crap. I was hoping his trip modifier was higher. My bad, ignore me. :)

Rages? You can only rage once per encounter, so only one :)

With the symbol, tell the DM (quietly) "I ready an action to hold the vampire at bay"

Hope he rages, the interrupt his attacks.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 01:43 PM
You only have a +1 amulet and +2 bracers?

Time to talk to this DM. Tell him you don't see a way out, and point out that a fully-equipped 16th level NPC is going to outclass any 16th level PC that has the gear of a 5th level character.I think he'll give me the chance to get some more stuff before the game. I missed most of the games where treasure was being distributed, but 6,000 gp of equipment is ridiculous for a 16th level character.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 01:46 PM
So, strategy.

Keep him at bay until he's out of rages.
Close distance and do a trip attack, charging if you have to. Follow that up with a disarm.
If he provokes just smack him once. Regardless if he tries to grab his weapon or stand, you are now right next to him.
Your next action is the full attack flurry to trip & grapple, pin, sustain.
Rinse, lather, repeat.


Edit: Oh, crap. I was hoping his trip modifier was higher. My bad, ignore me. :)

I'd rather not trip or disarm - likely the vampyre has a two-handed weapon and is way superior vs your light weapon disarm attack (your fists). Similiarly, the trip will not do much good, since the vampyre can even stay on the ground and slam/drain you.

No. Try the grapple route. That's the only chance I can see. And taunt the vampyre (who does not realise you know a lot about vampyres) into changing a form that you can attack better.

On the equipment: might be story/plot-specific to have only these meagre items. Maybe you COULD get the silversheen somehow ahead of the duel (or are you already there in the middle of the foggy arena/combat area? oh well...). Silversheen is only 250gp item, lasts an hour and it would greatly increase your chance at winning with the grapple.

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 01:49 PM
I think he'll give me the chance to get some more stuff before the game. I missed most of the games where treasure was being distributed, but 6,000 gp of equipment is ridiculous for a 16th level character.

You SHOULD have 260K worth of items. That can boost your AC 15 points for 158K, for example.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 01:53 PM
I think he'll give me the chance to get some more stuff before the game. I missed most of the games where treasure was being distributed, but 6,000 gp of equipment is ridiculous for a 16th level character.

Hmmm...maybe you could get a scarab of protection (helps vs 12 draining attacks; costs 38,000). Then, maybe already an enlarge potion would be nice (50gp).
To increase your AC, you could get a ring of force shield (8,500, gives +2 shield bonus), gloves of DEX +6 (32,000 gp), ring of protection (up to +5, would be 50,000).

But it likely all depends on the plot. Key would be the scarab and the silversheen.

- Giacomo

Fixer
2007-07-26, 01:58 PM
Dex +4 and Wis +4 items give a total of +4 to AC compared to the +3 to AC from Dex +6 item for the same cost.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:04 PM
Dex +4 and Wis +4 items give a total of +4 to AC compared to the +3 to AC from Dex +6 item for the same cost.

Yes, that would be superior- but the WIS item would occupy the space of the scarab of protection which I believe is key in surviving long enough to out-grapple the vampire.

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:07 PM
Personally, I say 48K for the three +stat items, add in 18K for a +3 ring of protection, bit for silversheen. +4 str/dex/wis, +3 deflection AC, -1 natural armour? Maybe boost the bracers as well. +6 net AC, +2 to hit, damage, and grapple checks, bypasses DR for this fight. Good deal for 66K, if available.

Nevar
2007-07-26, 02:14 PM
My only issue with the whole grapple thing is well let me see how I think it would go

Monk: I grapple him
Successful grapple check
Vamp fails
Vampire: I go gasious form
Monk: well S***

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:19 PM
Then he loses, effectively, as he provokes AOO's...

Wait. Damnit. Monk fists only overcome DR, they aren't magic items, so you literally can't hit.

*cough* don't mention that to your DM.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 02:20 PM
The monk's grapple checks do not include bonuses on attack rolls like the tiger tattoo or haste. A grapple check is not an attack roll.

You probably can't do a "flurry of grapples". You have to use your BAB.

The way to win the opposed disarm check against a two-handed weapon is to first trip, then disarm. +4 from prone opponent, +4 from Improved Disarm, and then you "just" have to win the effectively +17 (monk) vs +23+ (vamp) opposed check. It would help if the barbarian was using Power Attack. The great advantage is that if you win you can throw the vampire's weapon far into the mist.

Don't forget the vampire's Fast Healing. If he goes gaseous he just needs to survive the movement AoO as he flies out of reach (20 feet straight up - perfect maneuverability), and then he can wait until he's fully healed again.

Edit: Also, according to the FAQ DR/silver is Extraordinary, so it won't disappear in gaseous form.

Nevar
2007-07-26, 02:21 PM
like several people have said before best hope is a draw or some screwy storyline railroading.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:25 PM
The monk's grapple checks do not include bonuses on attack rolls like the tiger tattoo or haste. A grapple check is not an attack roll.

You probably can't do a "flurry of grapples". You have to use your BAB.

The way to win the opposed disarm check against a two-handed weapon is to first trip, then disarm. +4 from prone opponent, +4 from Improved Disarm, and then you "just" have to win the effectively +17 (monk) vs +23+ (vamp) opposed check. It would help if the barbarian was using Power Attack. The great advantage is that if you win you can throw the vampire's weapon far into the mist.

Don't forget the vampire's Fast Healing. If he goes gaseous he just needs to survive the movement AoO as he flies out of reach (20 feet straight up - perfect maneuverability), and then he can wait until he's fully healed again.

Actually, I checked. Many grapple actions replace attacks


If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks
Literally, he has a lot of attacks, and has enough BAB for multiple attacks. Of course, the bit about "sucessively lower base attack bonuses" is problematic, but still :smalltongue: Then again, you can't TWF in a grapple.

Anyways, if he can't, then he's totally screwed. He has NOTHING that he should have by that level except features, he isn't batman, and he's fighting an ECL 22 character. And it is, basically, a character, seeing as it's played by a player.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:31 PM
Then he loses, effectively, as he provokes AOO's...

Wait. Damnit. Monk fists only overcome DR, they aren't magic items, so you literally can't hit.

*cough* don't mention that to your DM.

They hit normally when the vampire is in gaseous form which provides DR 10/magic only.

@ikurex: Of course, a grapple can be flurried and all combat boni apply since the "grapple check is like a melee attack roll".
The disarm route, however, has too many uncertainties AND even if succesful, you need to take a standard action to throw away the weapon (the vampyre can likely find it again) and then the vampyre stands up and slams you with its +23 attack (including the 2 negative levels).
Grappling forces him to possibly give up his highest iterative attack AND gets him a -4.

- Giacomo

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 02:32 PM
Then he loses, effectively, as he provokes AOO's...

Wait. Damnit. Monk fists only overcome DR, they aren't magic items, so you literally can't hit.

*cough* don't mention that to your DM.



At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Doesn't that mean that it bypasses the DR?

And seeing as how gaseous form only gives you DR 10/Magic, he bypasses the DR.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:34 PM
What the!?

Gaseous form doesn't make you incoporeal, or anything!? Nvm.

My memory is getting bad.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 02:34 PM
Literally, he has a lot of attacks, and has enough BAB for multiple attacks.The extra attacks from Flurry of Blows are not from BAB. Grapple checks are done using your BAB. For example, you don't get a grapple check for each of your natural attacks, even if you have +6 BAB or more. (See FAQ on natural attacks in grapple.)

Regardless, you can only use Flurry of Blows "with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons". A grapple check is not an unarmed strike and not a special monk weapon.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:36 PM
Don't forget the vampire's Fast Healing. If he goes gaseous he just needs to survive the movement AoO as he flies out of reach (10 feet straight up - perfect maneuverability), and then he can wait until he's fully healed again.

Ah, the perfect maneuverability thing- that's correct! And it is even 20ft up (vampyre special speed). Either the monk has a flying item then or uses a trip for the AoO. This would then stop the vampyre even if flying.


Edit: Also, according to the FAQ DR/silver is Extraordinary, so it won't disappear in gaseous form.

Note: the gaseous form spell completely overrides everything your normal form has and is able to do - it is not part of the morhping spells. So 10/magic it is, not also the damage reduction granted by the body of a vampyre (also makes sense).

- Giacomo

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 02:39 PM
Well, if grapple checks don't count as attack roles, I don't get my bonus from the tattoos, so that drops what I was projecting by 2. On the bright side, that also means those negative levels aren't going to effect my grapple checks!


A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained . . . -1 on attack rolls

I may actually be better off that way.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "flurry of grapples" not working.

Nevar
2007-07-26, 02:39 PM
Doesn't that mean that it bypasses the DR?

And seeing as how gaseous form only gives you DR 10/Magic, he bypasses the DR.

Where does it say gaseous form has only DR 10/magic?

From what I've read it's still: A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:40 PM
Vampire DR is Su, as it's silver AND magic.

Also, I sense a DEM.

The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:41 PM
The extra attacks from Flurry of Blows are not from BAB. Grapple checks are done using your BAB. For example, you don't get a grapple check for each of your natural attacks, even if you have +6 BAB or more. (See FAQ on natural attacks in grapple.)

Regardless, you can only use Flurry of Blows "with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons". A grapple check is not an unarmed strike and not a special monk weapon.

It's complicated with the grapple rules, but on this they are quite clear (bold und underlined by me):
SRD: "Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check."

For the purposes of starting a grapple, the monk makes a touch attack with his fists first- which can be also flurried.

- Giacomo

Edit: the FAQ on natural attacks and grapple may mean exactly that- only pertaining to natural attacks, not the monk's unarmed strikes...

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 02:45 PM
Where does it say gaseous form has only DR 10/magic?

From what I've read it's still: A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic

Like Arbitrary and Sir Giacomo said, when you become gaseous form, you lose your supernatural abilities, and according to the SRD, the Vampires damage reduction is supernatural:


Damage Reduction (Su)A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 02:45 PM
They hit normally when the vampire is in gaseous form which provides DR 10/magic only. It won't lose it's DR 10/silver. See FAQ.


Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon
property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in
damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment
qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is
supernatural. Damage reduction that is bypassed by any other
weapon quality that a manufactured weapon could not have
without being magical also would be a supernatural special
quality.
When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.



Nowhere does gaseous form say that you lose extraordinary abilities.

@ikurex: Of course, a grapple can be flurried and all combat boni apply since the "grapple check is like a melee attack roll". "Like a melee attack roll" is another way of saying "not actually a melee attack roll".

A couple of examples from the FAQ:


When using Combat Expertise or Power Attack, does
the penalty you take also apply to opposed attack rolls
(such as when you are involved in a disarm or sunder
attempt)? What about on grapple checks?
Yes and no. Anything described as an attack roll (even an
opposed attack roll) can be affected by Combat Expertise or
Power Attack. A grapple check isn’t an attack roll, so you can’t
use Combat Expertise or Power Attack in conjunction with it.


I have a monk with the Vow of Poverty feat (from Book
of Exalted Deeds). Does the exalted strike bonus apply to
grapple, sunder, disarm, and trip attempts?
The exalted strike bonus gained by a character who has
taken Vow of Poverty applies only on attack and damage rolls.
Unless something is described as an attack roll or a damage
roll, the bonus doesn’t apply.
• The touch attack made to start a grapple is an attack
roll (so the bonus would apply to this roll), but a
grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus the bonus
wouldn’t apply to the grapple check. Likewise, the
touch attack made to start a trip attack would gain the
bonus, but the Strength check you make to trip the
defender is not an attack roll and wouldn’t gain the
bonus.
• To attempt a disarm attack or a sunder attack, you
make an attack roll opposed by the defender’s attack
roll, so the exalted strike bonus would apply.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:47 PM
DR 10/magic and Silver (su) is DR 10/magic and silver (su)

NOT DR 10/magic (su) and DR 10/silver (ex)

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 02:48 PM
It's complicated with the grapple rules, but on this they are quite clear (bold und underlined by me):
SRD: "Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check."

For the purposes of starting a grapple, the monk makes a touch attack with his fists first- which can be also flurried.A grapple check is not an unarmed strike just because you deal the same damage as with an unarmed strike. Bad logic.

Nevar
2007-07-26, 02:49 PM
Well if I was to be really screwed as the vampire seeing it's being played by a Player. I wouldn't start off in bar rage. first thing I'd do is go gasious form.

If you think about it that would be a dasterdly thing to do.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:51 PM
You can make a flurry of blows while being grappled by the FAQ ruling.

http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-735378.html

EDIT: I win. From the 3.5 Ed. General FAQ


Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.
She couldn’t bull rush or overrun (since those don’t use
special monk weapons), nor could she aid another (which
requires a standard action) or feint (which requires a move
action).

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:52 PM
Well ikurex- it appears you are wrong and right.

Wrong about the damage reduction thing...it is as Arbitrarity said; you lose the supernatural abilities, and the magic damage reduction (you even quoted this from the FAQ!) is a supernatural ability. Check also the SRD/MM vampire entry- you'll find the (su) abbreviation there.

On the grapple thing- well, the FAQ seems to rule here in your favour. The only thing the check is influenced by is size, STR and BAB. So the monk's grapple bonus is only +19...hmmm...luckily, as AdversusVeritas has pointed out, this means energy drain stuff does not affect his grapple ability! Great!
And the grapple check can still be flurried...:smallbiggrin:

Maybe the best item to get then would be not a scarab of protection, but rather a belt of giant strength +6....and an enlarge potion. And then the vampyre is history...:smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 02:54 PM
DR 10/magic and Silver (su) is DR 10/magic and silver (su)

NOT DR 10/magic (su) and DR 10/silver (ex)Did you read the FAQ answer i quoted?
I'll quote the whole answer to make this perfectly clear:

Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon
property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in
damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment
qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is
supernatural. Damage reduction that is bypassed by any other
weapon quality that a manufactured weapon could not have
without being magical also would be a supernatural special
quality.
When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.
If a creature’s damage reduction entry has multiple parts
separated by the word “and,” a weapon must have all those
qualities to bypass the damage reduction. A creature such as a
pit fiend, whose damage reduction is 15/good and silver, has
damage reduction that’s difficult to bypass because the weapon
must be both good and silver to overcome its damage
reduction. Attacks from a creature with the good subtype would
bypass a pit fiend’s damage reduction if the creature wielded a
silver weapon. As a natural ability, such a creature’s attacks
with natural or manufactured weaponry bypass damage
reduction as good weapons. Otherwise, a silver weapon must
also be magical and have the good quality to bypass the
damage reduction. Inside an antimagic field, however, only the
“silver” portion of the pit fiend damage reduction functions, so
the pit fiend effectively has damage reduction 15/silver.
Anyone wielding a silver weapon can bypass the pit fiend’s
damage reduction inside an antimagic field.
If the damage reduction entry has two or more elements
separated by the word “or,” then an attack needs only one of
those qualities to bypass the damage reduction. For example, a
bearded devil’s damage reduction entry reads 5/silver or good,
so any silver weapon or any good weapon can bypass the
damage reduction. Inside an antimagic field, the “good”
element in the damage reduction would still be suppressed, and
a silver weapon still would bypass the damage reduction. Please notice that the example uses "X and silver" DR, just like the vampire has.

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 02:54 PM
DR 10/magic and Silver (su) is DR 10/magic and silver (su)

NOT DR 10/magic (su) and DR 10/silver (ex)

Vampire DR and Gaseous form

Damage Reduction (Su)

A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic.

Gaseous Form (Su)

As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Gaseuos Form (Emphasis mine)

The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.


Monk's Ki Strike Ability

Ki Strike (Su)

At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction.

Therefore, once the Vampire goes Gaseous, he loses his DR 10/Magic and Silver, and is only left with DR 10/magic. The monk's fists are considered magic weapons, so they bypass the DR.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 02:56 PM
I think what Ikurex was saying was that those extra blows from the flurry of blows have to be unarmed attacks as opposed to grapple checks; I don't think he was saying that I can't flurry at all while grappling.

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 02:57 PM
Did you read the FAQ answer i quoted?
Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon
property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in
damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment
qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is
supernatural. Damage reduction that is bypassed by any other
weapon quality that a manufactured weapon could not have
without being magical also would be a supernatural special
quality.
When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.
If a creature’s damage reduction entry has multiple parts
separated by the word “and,” a weapon must have all those
qualities to bypass the damage reduction. A creature such as a
pit fiend, whose damage reduction is 15/good and silver, has
damage reduction that’s difficult to bypass because the weapon
must be both good and silver to overcome its damage
reduction. Attacks from a creature with the good subtype would
bypass a pit fiend’s damage reduction if the creature wielded a
silver weapon. As a natural ability, such a creature’s attacks
with natural or manufactured weaponry bypass damage
reduction as good weapons. Otherwise, a silver weapon must
also be magical and have the good quality to bypass the
damage reduction. Inside an antimagic field, however, only the
“silver” portion of the pit fiend damage reduction functions, so
the pit fiend effectively has damage reduction 15/silver.
Anyone wielding a silver weapon can bypass the pit fiend’s
damage reduction inside an antimagic field.
If the damage reduction entry has two or more elements
separated by the word “or,” then an attack needs only one of
those qualities to bypass the damage reduction. For example, a
bearded devil’s damage reduction entry reads 5/silver or good,
so any silver weapon or any good weapon can bypass the
damage reduction. Inside an antimagic field, the “good”
element in the damage reduction would still be suppressed, and
a silver weapon still would bypass the damage reduction.
I'll quote the whole answer to make this perfectly clear:
Please notice that the example uses "X and silver" DR, just like the vampire has.

Yeah, but the vampires DR is entirely supernatural, so it loses it when it goes into gaseous form, like indicated by the spell.

Nevar
2007-07-26, 02:59 PM
Thier not saying in an antimagic field but from changing into a gasious form is how it becomes only DR 10/Magic. in which case the monk can damge that.

Darrin
2007-07-26, 02:59 PM
Dex +4 and Wis +4 items give a total of +4 to AC compared to the +3 to AC from Dex +6 item for the same cost.

Not in a grapple. No Dex bonus to AC while grappled. For roughly the same price of a Dex +4 item (16,000 gp), you could get a ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp) and a ring of force shield +2 (8,500 gp). An Ioun Stone would get you a +1 insight bonus to AC (5,000 gp).

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 02:59 PM
When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.

The entire thing is Su, as stated by the entry.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 02:59 PM
A grapple check is not an unarmed strike just because you deal the same damage as with an unarmed strike. Bad logic.

But also it says "Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack". How can it get clearer than that? With flurry, the monk has more attacks.
But I admit there seems to be alreay quite some FAQ discussion going on from the link that Arbitrarity posted.

On the FAQ damage reduction ruling: read the first sentence of the stuff you quoted. It says " Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon
property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in
damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment
qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is
supernatural."
The vampire's DR is silver AND magic, so it is supernatural. (and btw it is also written in the MM/SRD description:)
SRD: Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 03:01 PM
Not in a grapple. No Dex bonus to AC while grappled. For roughly the same price of a Dex +4 item (16,000 gp), you could get a ring of protection +2 (8,000 gp) and a ring of force shield +2 (8,500 gp). An Ioun Stone would get you a +1 insight bonus to AC (5,000 gp).

You keep your DEX bonus against the one you grapple. You lose it vs others.

- Giacomo

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 03:02 PM
EDIT: I win. Nope.

The FAQ says that you can "perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack". This includes starting a grapple. However, you want to use a Flurry of Bows to make a grapple check using the "Damage Your Opponent" option when you're already grappling, and that can only be done with attacks from BAB.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:05 PM
Nuh-uh. The FAQ says you can "grapple to your heart's content", and preform any special attack that takes the place of a regular attack. That includes most grapple actions, as grapple is a "special attack".


What about grapple checks?

the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack

She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 03:06 PM
The entire thing is Su, as stated by the entry.The "entire thing" is Su. But the FAQ explicitly states that the /silver portion is Ex.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:09 PM
No, it isn't.

When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.

The entire entry for the DR for vampires is Su. Specific rule trumps general.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 03:12 PM
Nuh-uh. The FAQ says you can "grapple to your heart's content", and preform any special attack that takes the place of a regular attack. That includes most grapple actions, as grapple is a "special attack".<sigh> Starting a grapple is a special attack. A grapple check isn't. For example, you can't draw a light weapon (another "If You’re Grappling" option) with an unarmed strike attack.

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 03:13 PM
The "entire thing" is Su. But the FAQ explicitly states that the /silver portion is Ex.

For the Pit Fiend.

For the Vampire, the entire thing is Supernatural.

And also note that the DR entry in the SRD does not specify whether DR is Su or Ex, you get that from the table for the monster.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:17 PM
Then why is grapple under "Special attacks"? Not "starting a grapple", but "grapple" as a whole?

Where does it state "starting a grapple" is the only of the special attack actions relating to a grapple?

Obviously, not all grapple moves substitute for attacks, as stated in the grapple description.

You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 03:17 PM
<sigh> Starting a grapple is a special attack. A grapple check isn't. For example, you can't draw a light weapon (another "If You’re Grappling" option) with an unarmed strike attack.But the question in the FAQ is specifically whether a Monk can flurry with "grappling checks."

Darrin
2007-07-26, 03:20 PM
I think what Ikurex was saying was that those extra blows from the flurry of blows have to be unarmed attacks as opposed to grapple checks; I don't think he was saying that I can't flurry at all while grappling.

I don't think you can flurry. Flurry requires a full-round action, and you don't really get to do full-round actions while grappled. There is a specific list of actions that can be done while grappling, and while you can perform some of those actions multiple times if your BAB allows iterative attacks (including, oddly enough, activating magic items), the grapple rules don't explicitly say you can full-attack. You can do something that's very similar to a full attack, but flurry/TWF/snap kick/haste or speed attack wouldn't be part of it. There are feats or some PrC abilities that allow a full-attack while grappled (Knife-fighting is the only one that comes to mind), but that isn't available here.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:22 PM
I don't think you can flurry. Flurry requires a full-round action, and you don't really get to do full-round actions while grappled. There is a specific list of actions that can be done while grappling, and while you can perform some of those actions multiple times if your BAB allows iterative attacks (including, oddly enough, activating magic items), the grapple rules don't explicitly say you can full-attack. You can do something that's very similar to a full attack, but flurry/TWF/snap kick/haste or speed attack wouldn't be part of it. There are feats or some PrC abilities that allow a full-attack while grappled (Knife-fighting is the only one that comes to mind), but that isn't available here.



Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks
during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks?
What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat
maneuvers?
As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s
special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry),
the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of
a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple
to her heart’s content.

Not. Complicated.

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 03:22 PM
No, it isn't.Yes it is.


Damage reduction is extraordinary unless the weapon
property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” (as in
damage reduction #/magic) or one of the four alignment
qualities (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), in which case it is
supernatural.


The entire entry for the DR for vampires is Su. Specific rule trumps general.That a valid point from a rules-lawyery perspective, but the whole point of the FAQ entry is that the MM doesn't distinguish between Su and Ex DR. The FAQ clarifies this by stating clearly and unambiguously that "damage reduction is extraordinary unless..." and that two-parter DR is both.

mudbunny
2007-07-26, 03:25 PM
That a valid point from a rules-lawyery perspective, but the whole point of the FAQ entry is that the MM doesn't distinguish between Su and Ex DR. The FAQ clarifies this by stating clearly and unambiguously that "damage reduction is extraordinary unless..." and that two-parter DR is both.

There is no rules-lawyering about it. The SRD also clearly states that the DR for a vampire is Supernatural. Therefore, when it enters gaseuos form, it loses all supernatural abilities, including it's Damage Resistance.


Damage Reduction (Su)

A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:25 PM
In this instance, the MM does distinguish. Therefore, the specific rule trumps the general. Obviously. Now, are we going to say the monk is non-proficient with fists next?

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-26, 03:26 PM
I don't think you can flurry. Flurry requires a full-round action, and you don't really get to do full-round actions while grappled. There is a specific list of actions that can be done while grappling, and while you can perform some of those actions multiple times if your BAB allows iterative attacks (including, oddly enough, activating magic items), the grapple rules don't explicitly say you can full-attack. You can do something that's very similar to a full attack, but flurry/TWF/snap kick/haste or speed attack wouldn't be part of it. There are feats or some PrC abilities that allow a full-attack while grappled (Knife-fighting is the only one that comes to mind), but that isn't available here.But the SRD says:


When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.That doesn't make any sense if you are denyed full round actions. If you are right, then all of these attacks don't count as a full-round action, meaning that you could move the grapple and still get all of those attacks.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-26, 03:29 PM
Come on Iku Rex, you even quote the stuff yourself which say that the DR is magic (and thus exception from the rule of extraordinary).

Maybe we can concentrate again on providing help to poor AdversusVeritas' monk who is about to face his vampyre brother with 6,000 gp worth of items?

I'd say that Iku Rex was right on the grapple check in that only STR, size and BAB apply (which would make lower-level monks stronger since then the grapple flurry penalty to BAB does not apply, plus also makes grapple checks and damage immune to energy drain- great!).

However, the grapple can still be flurried because you can make the checks IN PLACE OF AN ATTACK (not BAB, not check, not whatever, attack it is). It even refers to unarmed strike for damage. So it is fairly safe to assume that the monk can flurry when grappling (by the RAI, btw, the monk is supposed to be the best at grappling and unarmed combat in general, isn't he?)

- Giacomo

SpikeFightwicky
2007-07-26, 03:34 PM
But the SRD says:

That doesn't make any sense if you are denyed full round actions. If you are right, then all of these attacks don't count as a full-round action, meaning that you could move the grapple and still get all of those attacks.

I think that entry is more for balance. If you got grappled by an aboleth, he could make 4 full BaB attacks against you in one round. With these rules, he can only make 2, at: +12/+7

Iku Rex
2007-07-26, 03:38 PM
Then why is grapple under "Special attacks"? Not "starting a grapple", but "grapple" as a whole? They assumed we'd understand it. Seriously. Not everything is spelled out in great detail in the rules. Special attacks substitute for a melee attack and I've already proven (FAQ on natural attacks) that you can't make a grapple check for all your melee attacks.

Obviously, not all grapple moves substitute for attacks, as stated in the grapple description.Fine. Let's use "pin your opponent" as an example. It substitutes for an attack. According to you it is therefore a "special attack that takes the place of a regular attack". This means that you can pin someone with a single unarmed strike. Is that your position? Heck, you could even pin someone with a hit from a greataxe.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:41 PM
Hark, I hear the piercing of a poor scarecrow. All he ever wanted was a brain...

Alas, he was pinned by a lance. To the ground. It would be painful, except he has no brain.

Chronos
2007-07-26, 03:44 PM
There's another danger, here. As stated, this looks like it's intended to be a fight that the monk can't win. With the advice in this thread, and depending on DM interpretation, AdversusVeritas just might end up winning anyway. Which runs the risk, if the DM is petty enough (which it sounds like he might be), that he'll just say "In that case, a boulder falls out of the blue sky and squishes you flat. Obviously, you were supposed to repeat your family name three times backwards to break the spell on your brother, and its your own fault you didn't see that and got killed. Combat was suicidal, and you shouldn't have tried it.".

Of course, the proper response to that, in turn, is when your initiative roll comes up, you take a standard action to pick up your character sheet and dice, a free action to speak and say "Screw that, bye", and then a move action to drive home.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 03:46 PM
I like the move action :smallbiggrin:

What's the speed of the car? Is it making a run action?

Darrin
2007-07-26, 09:57 PM
Not. Complicated.

Sorry, I didn't explain that well.

I'm not disputing that you can flurry to start a grapple. That's quite clear, as far as I'm concerned. The rules/FAQ clearly states that while flurrying, the monk can make special attacks. That's not what I was referring to when I said the monk couldn't flurry *while grappling*. I'm talking about AFTER THE GRAPPLE CHECK HAS BEEN MADE.

Once the monk has successfully started a grapple, the list of options allowed under the grapple rules doesn't allow a flurry, because you don't get a full-round action *while grappling*. You may get a certain number of iterative actions based on your BAB, which allows something similar to a full attack action, but flurry can't be used once the grapple has started because it requires a full-round action. The vampire would likewise get his iterative attacks, and could slam three times at -4/-9/-14 (plus one energy drain/round), make three unarmed strikes for 1d3 subdual, or one pin plus blood drain (since you can generally only pin a person once a round).

Oddly enough, grappling the vampire and failing to pin him would give him three attempts to use his energy drain, while he would normally only get one attempt outside of a grapple (as a standard action, you couldn't combine it with a full attack).

Thinker
2007-07-26, 10:01 PM
You can use Natural Attacks as part of a full attack, but cannot use them in iterative attacks. Slams are Natural Attacks.

JackMage666
2007-07-26, 11:01 PM
My recommendation -

If you don't need to eat or sleep, which you said you didn't, just repel him with the holy symbol. Forever.
You said it was an arena fight, no? Who's watching? If it's a crowd, they'll quickly get annoyed, and you'll both be removed from combat. If it's the gods, they may wait longer, but eventually get bored. Perhaps it's a teste of patience, and this is how you should win it. Either way, the Vamp might get bored, and you can make special requests ("I'll fight you only if you fight unarmed.", or "No armor in our duel"). That's my suggestion.

Jack Mann
2007-07-26, 11:43 PM
My recommendation -

If you don't need to eat or sleep, which you said you didn't, just repel him with the holy symbol. Forever.

It's been pointed out that this doesn't work. The vampire can still summon minions via Children of the Night to attack him, among other things.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-26, 11:57 PM
It's been pointed out that this doesn't work. The vampire can still summon minions via Children of the Night to attack him, among other things.

I don't think it been said exactly why he can't just stay defensive and hit them when they come to him though. As long as he doesn't move, the monk can continue to act since it's only a standard action. He should be able to fight back against the creatures to an extent, and they should have trouble hitting him. The creatures a vampire summons aren't exactly amazing, and while it's been a while, I don't think vampires can summon minions forever. Logic indicates that there's only so many damn bats and wolves at his disposal.

Jack Mann
2007-07-27, 12:06 AM
...I don't think you understand how actions work. The only way the monk in question could attack would be on an attack of opportunity. If the monk chooses to attack the wolves otherwise, the vampire is now free to attack him directly. The vampire can also just spam dominate. Sure, the monk can close his eyes, but then the children of the night will have an even easier time ripping him apart. Heck, the vampire can even just throw rocks at the monk. He just can't approach to attack him directly.

Tor the Fallen
2007-07-27, 12:09 AM
like several people have said before best hope is a draw or some screwy storyline railroading.

You mean like rather than destroying your vampire brother, you try and talk with him? Seems like a pretty good moment to roleplay, rather than rollplay.
Sheesh, you guys are such D&D players.

"So my character is being forced to fight his vampire brother, with nothing but a rusty fork."
"Jeeze, that EL is, like, impossible."


You guys see the trees, but are missing the forest.

Dairun Cates
2007-07-27, 12:14 AM
Ah. Guess I was mixing up standard and half actions.

However, I'm still surprised at the amount of assumption automatically that the encounter is exactly what it seems like, out of the player's league, and that the GM is the most evil man on the face of the planet. Considering what we've heard and how the player has been enjoying it up to this point, I somehow doubt the GM is out to entirely screw the player over completely. Despite common belief by players, most GM's are not out to slaughter the living daylights out of their players. Also, with the sheer amount of cheese and spam people are talking about with the vampire, I'm vaguely reminded of something I heard a larper said once.

"For God's Sake, you're a fire elemental. You have an intelligence of 3. Your tactics aren't this good. Now shut up and take your death like a man."

True. Vampires are significantly more intelligent, but most GM's I've worked with avoid spamming abilities and cheap tactics, because it mostly leads to your players hating you, tedious combat, and the players trying to break your system.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-27, 07:06 AM
I don't thing the environment allows for calling the Children of the night



Children of the Night (Su)

Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.


That isn't a Summon Monster N spell, they don't appear out of nowhere, they have to come from someplace. But this is taking place in an arena, thus no reinforcements. They children would probably show up and surround the arena, but couldn't get in... since they lack opposable thumbs.

lord_khaine
2007-07-27, 07:52 AM
so to sum it up, i belive the current suggestion involves keeping the vampire at bay with a holy symbol until his rage runs out, then chugging a potion of enlarge, smear some silver sheen on your fist and start to grapple him.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 08:07 AM
Bah, last night's game got cancelled because the DM needed more time to pack for a trip he is taking. It looks like this encounter won't get resolved for another couple of weeks. On the bright side, it looks like he's going to square away the magic item situation first and also let me use my tattoos as holy symbols.

The biggest problem we have now is getting settled-up on some of the rules. Grappling and natural attacks are giving me a pretty big headache.

1) Under natural attack in the MM, it says, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high attack bonus when using natural weapons." Does that mean that if he uses his slam attack, he can't use any iterative attacks, even with other weapons?

2) Okay, the whole "full-round action" while grappling thing is confusing as hell, but I'd like to get peoples' perspectives on it because this could end up changing my strategy. The rules don't say anything about not getting a full-round action (unless I just missed that part). They say you can't cast a spell that has a full-round casting time, so I could see where a DM would rule that you don't get full-round actions. Then again, you do get at least the equivalent of a full attack, so I could see where a DM would rule that you do get full-round actions.

Personally, I'd say that you do get full-round actions. Here's why:

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these ["if you're grappling"] actions in place of each attack.

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough . . . you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.You can get extra attacks during a grapple if your BAB is high enough, but you only get extra attacks from your BAB if you are using a full round action.

But let's say for the moment that you don't get a full-round action, and that those extra attacks during the grapple don't constitute one. That doesn't leave us much of a choice. If it isn't a full-round action, it must be a standard action. So, I am allowed to use all of those attacks to try to escape the grapple. Say I managed to escape on my third attack. Those attacks only count as a single standard action, and I am no longer in a grapple; wouldn't that mean I still have a move action left, even after all of those attacks, to get away?

Also, let's say I have three attacks and I use the first one to escape the grapple and I succeed. What happens to those other two attacks? I am no long grappling, and those extra attacks are part of a standard if-you're-grappling action instead of a full-attack action, so I guess I just lose those attacks after I escape from the grapple?

Fixer
2007-07-27, 08:33 AM
1) Under natural attack in the MM, it says, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high attack bonus when using natural weapons." Does that mean that if he uses his slam attack, he can't use any iterative attacks, even with other weapons?
The rules about iterative attacks are actually pretty clear. As a standard action he can take a single attack with either a weapon OR his slam attack.

I need to point on this from the Monster portion of the SRD under Manufactured Weapons:
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.This would seem to indicate that the vampire can make a normal attack (with iterative bonuses) and a slam attack as an off-hand attack. It even says so under Full Attack for Vampire:
Full Attack: A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack. Thus, the vampire will have the attacks under Full Attack with normal iterative weapon attacks AND a slam attack at a -5 penalty. Most unfun.


2) Okay, the whole "full-round action" while grappling thing is confusing as hell, but I'd like to get peoples' perspectives on it because this could end up changing my strategy. The rules don't say anything about not getting a full-round action (unless I just missed that part). They say you can't cast a spell that has a full-round casting time, so I could see where a DM would rule that you don't get full-round actions. Then again, you do get at least the equivalent of a full attack, so I could see where a DM would rule that you do get full-round actions.
The grapple rules are not as complicated as everyone thinks.
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).Right here it clearly states "If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times."

WHILE you are grappled, the rules are also very clear:
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.Again, you get to perform as many of the actions as you want depending on your number of attacks. For you, this action will be the one you are performing the most:
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack.


Also, let's say I have three attacks and I use the first one to escape the grapple and I succeed. What happens to those other two attacks? I am no long grappling, and those extra attacks are part of a standard if-you're-grappling action instead of a full-attack action, so I guess I just lose those attacks after I escape from the grapple?
WHY would you do that? Grappled doesn't mean he has a hold of you and you don't have a hold on him. Grappled means you both have a hold on each other. Instead of escaping the grapple, use the rules above to Damage Your Opponent and deal damage.

But, IF you wanted to escape from the grapple you would literally have broken off his grip on you while also giving up your grip on him. You then could use your iterative attacks to just punch him, disarm, trip, or re-initiate the grapple.

Dizlag
2007-07-27, 08:45 AM
This has been an interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading it. As a DM, I'd like to offer my thoughts on this since it has come up in one of my games regarding a monk using "flurry of blows" to deal damage during a grapple.

Two things that are most important here ...

From the SRD:

Flurry of Blows: When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. ... When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes ...


Grapple: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack.

Note my accented text. A flurry of blows gives a monk extra unarmed strikes; however, all attacks at -2 penalty. AdversusVeritas' monk is high enough level where this penalty is gone and he's getting two extra attacks per round due to Greater Flurry of Blows. But that's what they are though, extra attacks ... extra UNARMED attacks. Since dealing damage to an opponent during a grapple is equivalent to an unarmed strike AND the monk gets extra unarmed strikes per round, then the monk is able to do damage during a grapple using his greater flurry of blows. He obviously would need to use his first attack to start the grapple, if he wins then damage is rolled. Then, he can use the rest of his greater flurry to do damage by making grapple checks instead of making attack rolls. If he wins a grapple check, he does his unarmed damage to the opponent.

It's as simple as that. This is how I ruled it in my game and I'm sure other DMs out there would do the same. Good luck to you!

Dizlag

EDIT: simul'post

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-27, 08:57 AM
I completely agree to Dizlag. Grapple that darn vampyre brother and you have a chance to win.
Now if your tattoos count as holy symbol(s) now, that puts up another rather awkward situation.
You ready an action to his charge and then present the tattoos stopping the vampyre's charge 10ft away. His action ends.
Now you just act before him, do a 5 ft step and start your grapple touch attack with flurry and your pin attemt with flurry and damage with remaining flurry. The problem: the vampyre is now within 5ft of the holy symbol! What happens then? By the RAW, the vampyre has to try to re-establish the distance to the holy symbol with his actions (so needs at least two of his iterative attack to get free from pin AND from grapple and make 5ft step; remember after you try a second attack you no longer can do a move action). Difficult call...as a DM I'd probably houserule it to involve some more penalties for the vampyre, who could then otherwise act normally within the grapple.

- Giacomo

EDIT: just noticed, AdversusVeritas, your two questions:
1) the slam attack can happen multiple times if the BAB is high enough (it is not a natural weapon per se, but a special kind of attack)
2) when starting a grapple, you can per definition not do anymore a full-round action (since you need at least a standard action already to start the grapple with a touch attack). You could still use the grapple options that replace an attack, though, if you have more than 1 attack left after the touch/grapple establishment.
IN a grapple you can do full-round actions like full attack (making all options that replace attacks) or full move, albeit at half pace- so basically twice your move is possible (if you beat the other's grapple check). The only 1-round action that you cannot do is cast a 1-round casting time spell since in grapple the longest casting time you can manage is 1 standard action.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 09:10 AM
Thanks for clearing up the natural/iterative attack thing, I had just read a little bit about it this morning and the wording had me confused. But you are right, the MM is pretty clear once you read about the specific attacks.


WHY would you do that? Grappled doesn't mean he has a hold of you and you don't have a hold on him. Grappled means you both have a hold on each other. Instead of escaping the grapple, use the rules above to Damage Your Opponent and deal damage.That question was more of a hypothetical for those who were insisting that the attack option for "If you're grappling" is not a full-round attack, but just a sort of grappling-specific option. Under that interpretation, you could only have those extra attacks while you are grappling. If that were true, and one of your attacks was used to break the grapple (for whatever reason), you would lose any extra attacks.

Under their interpretation, you can only get interative attacks outside a grapple if you spend a full-round action (obviously), but inside a grapple is a special case where you get your iterative attacks as a non full-round action. If you used this (standard I take it?) action to get some attacks, but partway through the attacks you are no longer grappling, you'd lose them.


But, IF you wanted to escape from the grapple you would literally have broken off his grip on you while also giving up your grip on him. You then could use your iterative attacks to just punch him, disarm, trip, or re-initiate the grapple.I agree; that is that way it should be, but if the "attack your opponent" option is purely a "if you're grappling" deal and not a full attack in its own right (as some people on this thread have suggested), it would stand to reason that your attack would end when the grapple did, even if you had iterative attacks left over.

Darrin
2007-07-27, 09:15 AM
1) Under natural attack in the MM, it says, "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high attack bonus when using natural weapons." Does that mean that if he uses his slam attack, he can't use any iterative attacks, even with other weapons?

Not exactly. He can full-attack as normal and then add any natural attacks he might have with a -5 penalty. If he just wanted to slam without the -5 penalty, then that would be a standard attack action he could do only once per round.



2) Okay, the whole "full-round action" while grappling thing is confusing as hell, but I'd like to get peoples' perspectives on it because this could end up changing my strategy. The rules don't say anything about not getting a full-round action (unless I just missed that part). They say you can't cast a spell that has a full-round casting time, so I could see where a DM would rule that you don't get full-round actions. Then again, you do get at least the equivalent of a full attack, so I could see where a DM would rule that you do get full-round actions.


Once you're grappling, the rules are a bit different. He may now make iterative attacks with a natural weapon (the slam attack) at -4/-9/-14 because the rules for "If You're Grappling" say you may make multiple attack actions if you've got the BAB to do so:



If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.


Heres the list of actions you can do while grappling:
* Activate a Magic Item (rules quirk: you may be able to activate a spell-trigger item such as a wand for every iterative attack you have)
* Attack your opponent - attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon at a -4 penalty. This is where the vampire can slam you multiple times.
* Cast a spell
* Damage your opponent - this is where your monk gets to attack him at no penalty and do your normal unarmed damage. You get iterative attacks here, but *not* extra attacks that would normally be granted by a full-attack action, such as Flurry, Haste, Speed, etc. The vampire can't use his slam here because natural attacks are not normally unarmed strikes.
* Draw a light weapon
* Escape from a grapple - since you can do this in place of an attack, iterative attacks would give you multiple escape attempts.
* Move - this is the only option that explicitly says what type of action it requires, but I'm confused about when it can be used. I guess if you've already used a full-round or standard action to start the grapple, you can't use the Move option. If you started the round grappled and get out of the grapple, I guess you could then use your normal move action to move away... it's not clear to me if you already did something else (including the move option or attacking) and then ended the grapple, what sort of actions you'd have left...?
* Retrieve a spell component - now this is interesting, says you can retrieve a spell componet as a full round action... so apparently you CAN take full-round actions in a grapple? But a full-round attack isn't listed as an option, just "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent". I think the intent here was if you want to retrieve a spell component, you can't do anything else in the grapple, including moving or attacking.
* Pin your opponent - attempt to pin in place of an attack.
* Break another's pin - one attempt per iterative attack
* Use opponent's weapon - similar to "Attack your opponent", requires your opponent to have a light weapon available



Personally, I'd say that you do get full-round actions. Here's why:

You can get extra attacks during a grapple if your BAB is high enough, but you only get extra attacks from your BAB if you are using a full round action.


I don't quite agree. "Full-round attack" is not listed as an available option under "If you're grappling". If you want to attack your opponent, you have three options: "Attack your opponent", "Damage your opponent", and "Use your opponent's weapon". None of those options say they allow a full-round attack. You do get multiple attacks if your BAB allows you to do so, but unfortunately the Grappling rules don't state whether these attacks count as a standard or full-round action. I can't see any indication of what the designers intended as far as allowing multiple attacks.




But let's say for the moment that you don't get a full-round action, and that those extra attacks during the grapple don't constitute one. That doesn't leave us much of a choice. If it isn't a full-round action, it must be a standard action. So, I am allowed to use all of those attacks to try to escape the grapple. Say I managed to escape on my third attack. Those attacks only count as a single standard action, and I am no longer in a grapple; wouldn't that mean I still have a move action left, even after all of those attacks, to get away?


None of the options listed under "If You're Grappling" specify that they use a move action. The attack actions don't specify if they are standard or full-round... you might assume any attacks, even multiples, might count as a standard action. So, unless you were retrieving a spell component, I'd say you still have your move action available.



Also, let's say I have three attacks and I use the first one to escape the grapple and I succeed. What happens to those other two attacks? I am no long grappling, and those extra attacks are part of a standard if-you're-grappling action instead of a full-attack action, so I guess I just lose those attacks after I escape from the grapple?

That's where things get really blurry, particularly if you take into account this from the combat section:



Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If youÂ’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you canÂ’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.


So if you escaped on your first attack... you might in fact be able to continue with a full-round attack, *including* your extra attacks from Flurry/Haste/Speed/etc. Since you're no longer in the grapple at that point, you're no longer restricted to only those options available under "If You're Grappling".

The really odd part would be if you attacked twice normally and then escaped on your third attack... was that a standard action, thus allowing you a move action? If it was a full-round attack, can you now take your extra attacks via flurry/haste/speed/TWF/etc.?

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 09:17 AM
Good question about the holy symbol Giacomo; I'll have to pick the DM's brain with that one.


1) the slam attack can happen multiple times if the BAB is high enough (it is not a natural weapon per se, but a special kind of attack)It isn't specifically called a natural weapon in the vampire description, but the MM says

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below . . . slap or slam


when starting a grapple, you can per definition not do anymore a full-round action (since you need at least a standard action already to start the grapple with a touch attack). You could still use the grapple options that replace an attack, though, if you have more than 1 attack left after the touch/grapple establishment.
IN a grapple you can do full-round actions like full attack (making all options that replace attacks) or full move, albeit at half pace- so basically twice your move is possible (if you beat the other's grapple check). The only 1-round action that you cannot do is cast a 1-round casting time spell since in grapple the longest casting time you can manage is 1 standard action.That's the way I was interpreting it, but some people on the thread seemed to be saying that you can't do a full-round action once in a grapple. I may have just been reading them wrong.

Dizlag
2007-07-27, 09:32 AM
*Damage your opponent - this is where your monk gets to attack him at no penalty and do your normal unarmed damage. You get iterative attacks here, but *not* extra attacks that would normally be granted by a full-attack action, such as Flurry, Haste, Speed, etc. The vampire can't use his slam here because natural attacks are not normally unarmed strikes.


Darren: Why wouldn't the monk get extra attacks due to his Greater Flurry? That ability gives him extra unarmed attacks and damaging an opponent during a grapple is considered equivalent to an unarmed attack. And for that matter, why wouldn't haste or speed count as well? They both grant extra attacks and you can damage your opponent in place of an attack. I'm just wondering because it might be cases the designers missed and tried to generalize their intent.

Dizlag

Fixer
2007-07-27, 09:34 AM
Good question about the holy symbol Giacomo; I'll have to pick the DM's brain with that one.
At that point you are not longer 'strongly presenting' the holy symbol so it stops working.


It isn't specifically called a natural weapon in the vampire description, but the MM says
Slam attacks, regardless of sourse, are natural attacks. A monk's unarmed attacks are not classified as 'slam attacks' which is why they are allowed iterative attacks.


That's the way I was interpreting it, but some people on the thread seemed to be saying that you can't do a full-round action once in a grapple. I may have just been reading them wrong.
You can't take full-round actions while in a grapple. You can only make opposed grapple checks during a grapple to perform actions. If you become no longer grappled and still have iterative attacks left, you may use them. If you used your first attack to escape, you still, technically, have a move action available although your opponent does still threaten your area because they aren't grappled any more.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 09:36 AM
Not exactly. He can full-attack as normal and then add any natural attacks he might have with a -5 penalty. If he just wanted to slam without the -5 penalty, then that would be a standard attack action he could do only once per round.The way I'm reading it, that -5 is for secondary natural weapons, so I don't think it would apply to his slam. The MM says that he doesn't get extra natural attacks from his BAB, and also that creatures generally only get one slam attack (the only exception they list is if the creature is large and has arms/arm-like limbs).




Once you're grappling, the rules are a bit different. He may now make iterative attacks with a natural weapon (the slam attack) at -4/-9/-14 because the rules for "If You're Grappling" say you may make multiple attack actions if you've got the BAB to do so:But the rules for natural weapons say that you don't get extra natural attacks from your BAB. A secondary natural weapon can give you extra attacks at larger penalties, but your primary attack won't benefit from your BAB.



I don't quite agree. "Full-round attack" is not listed as an available option under "If you're grappling". If you want to attack your opponent, you have three options: "Attack your opponent", "Damage your opponent", and "Use your opponent's weapon". None of those options say they allow a full-round attack. You do get multiple attacks if your BAB allows you to do so, but unfortunately the Grappling rules don't state whether these attacks count as a standard or full-round action. I can't see any indication of what the designers intended as far as allowing multiple attacks.I'll agree that it is poorly described. However, I would think that you would treat an attack that operates as a full-round action as a full-round action unless the rules specifically told you otherwise.


So if you escaped on your first attack... you might in fact be able to continue with a full-round attack, *including* your extra attacks from Flurry/Haste/Speed/etc. Since you're no longer in the grapple at that point, you're no longer restricted to only those options available under "If You're Grappling".

The really odd part would be if you attacked twice normally and then escaped on your third attack... was that a standard action, thus allowing you a move action? If it was a full-round attack, can you now take your extra attacks via flurry/haste/speed/TWF/etc.?I would think, if your multiple attacks while grappling are not a full-round, then no, you couldn't continue attacking after you escaped the grapple. If it were a full-attack action, you could assign your attacks to do whatever you wanted for the duration of the attack round. However, if your attacks are part of a grapple-specific standard action, your attack would have to switch from being standard action to a full-round action midstream.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 09:46 AM
If you become no longer grappled and still have iterative attacks left, you may use them.I am denied the option of taking a full-round action, so I take a standard action, but if part of my standard action removes the obstical that was preventing me from taking a full-round action, I can then turn my standard action into a full-round action?

I know that "full-round action" isn't listed under my "if you're grappling" options, but "attack your opponent" is, and the attack it describes is only possible during a full-round action. Technically speaking, "move action" isn't one of my listed options either, but some of my options do take up a move action. Obviously, if some of my options take up a move action, then I get a move action while in a grapple. I think it is equally obvious that if one of my options can only occur during a full-round action, I must get a full-round action.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 09:51 AM
Darren: Why wouldn't the monk get extra attacks due to his Greater Flurry? That ability gives him extra unarmed attacks and damaging an opponent during a grapple is considered equivalent to an unarmed attack.Their argument is that, although it damages the opponent as if it were an unarmed attack, it is not itself an unarmed attack.


And for that matter, why wouldn't haste or speed count as well? They both grant extra attacks and you can damage your opponent in place of an attack. I'm just wondering because it might be cases the designers missed and tried to generalize their intent.

DizlagTheir argument is that you don't get a full-round attack while grappling since it isn't one of the options listed under "if you're grappling." You get bonus attacks from your BAB, but it isn't a full-round attack so you don't get any bonus attacks from flurry or haste.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-27, 09:59 AM
Trying to pull away from the full/round/grapple/slam thing (I guess it is quite simple: use grapple and flurry with grapple en lieu of attacks; vampyre can use iterative slam attacks, but at -4 in grapple):

What kind of magic items has your DM hinted you could get? Could you choose from core items for a certain sum? Or will some Arena organisers for the duel give you items just prior to combat and take them away afterwards?

- Giacomo

Dizlag
2007-07-27, 09:59 AM
The way I see it is if you've got multiple attacks and you want to get away from a grapple, then you're gonna use all of those attacks to try to get away. If you escape on your first try, then you're still left a move action and options have opened up a bit ... you can move away out of grappling range (which should draw an AOO if it's greater than a 5' step) or continue to attack. Now, if you fail on your first try and make it on your second try, then you don't have a move action available (you made more than one attack) and you can then take a 5' step away or continue your attacks.

Think of it this way, if you have multiple attacks swinging your sword and kill an enemy on your first attack, you don't have to continue your attacks ... you can take a move action. However, if you don't take him down on your first attack and have to take another attack, then you're only left with a 5' step and have effectively taken a full-attack action.

That's the way I see it and have been ruling in the past.

Dizlag

EDIT: To reply to AdversusVeritas' statement:


Their argument is that, although it damages the opponent as if it were an unarmed attack, it is not itself an unarmed attack.

Actually, it is EQUIVALENT to an unarmed attack and a monk would get all of his unarmed attacks per round. When you are using more than one attack action in a round by default you are using a full-attack action, hence you can get all your attacks whether it be by haste, speed, flurry, or what not. That's the way I rule it and it would seem this is becoming more of a RAW discussion, possibly hijacking your thread. I would ask your DM how he would rule in regards to a monk getting a flurry during a grapple.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-27, 10:20 AM
Trying to pull away from the full/round/grapple/slam thing (I guess it is quite simple: use grapple and flurry with grapple en lieu of attacks; vampyre can use iterative slam attacks, but at -4 in grapple):I'm still iffy on some stuff, especially the vampire getting iterative slam attacks. If he had a secondary natural attack, he could use it at an extra -5 penalty, but he can't use his bonus attacks from BAB to get extra natural attacks according to the MM.

But we should probably drop all of this. Even if the DM won't let me use my flurry to get extra "damage your opponent" grapple checks, I will still probably end up grappling him. Even if the DM lets him get interative natural attacks, he can still only give me negative levels once per round.


What kind of magic items has your DM hinted you could get? Could you choose from core items for a certain sum? Or will some Arena organisers for the duel give you items just prior to combat and take them away afterwards?

- GiacomoThe organizer is going to give me some equipment, but I'll probably have some OOC say in what that equipment is. A scarab of protection, some AC boosting items, a potion of enlarge person, and some silversheen are looking pretty good right about now.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-27, 10:30 AM
The organizer is going to give me some equipment, but I'll probably have some OOC say in what that equipment is. A scarab of protection, some AC boosting items, a potion of enlarge person, and some silversheen are looking pretty good right about now.

Looking pretty good? Wow. I am starting to pity that ECL 22 vampyre...:smalltongue:

Scarab of protetcion- blocks 12 drains; could last 20 rounds of grapple this way.
Enlarge person? +4 to grapple checks and you get a +2 size bonus to STR. Of course, your brother may have had the same idea...to surprise him, you could drink the potion once you got him pinned...
Silversheen? It'a getting better and better...and with the AC boosts, you'll likely need the scarab even less. You'll probably not need much more. If the vampyre invests all/most he has into a nice two-handed weapon to power attack you away (verrry barbarian-like), he has a problem (since he cannot use that weapon in grapple).
Maybe also get a belt of giant strength OR monk's belt if possible, but it is just a crusting on the cake. And/Or gloves of DEX to get you higher Initiative so you will not have to suffer from his 1st round charge before grappling.

How long does it take you to activate your tattoos? And is it a supernatural or spell-like ability?

- Giacomo

EDIT: just noticed that with enlarge you have 10ft reach, 15ft with a reach weapon, so you do not even necessarily need to win initiative any more with combat reflexes- as soon as the vampyre charges you, trip it.

Zim
2007-07-27, 02:04 PM
Don't forget to eat a garlic and salami sandwich before the fight. :smallsmile: Bring holy water and potions of invisibility too!

Arbitrarity
2007-07-27, 02:09 PM
EDIT: just noticed that with enlarge you have 10ft reach, 15ft with a reach weapon, so you do not even necessarily need to win initiative any more with combat reflexes- as soon as the vampyre charges you, trip it.

Rules Correction: 20 ft of reach. Reach weapons DOUBLE reach, not add to it.

Jack Mann
2007-07-27, 02:33 PM
1) the slam attack can happen multiple times if the BAB is high enough (it is not a natural weapon per se, but a special kind of attack)

No, Giacomo. Slam attacks are exactly a kind of natural weapons. You'll find it under the natural weapons category. It works just like any other natural weapon. No iterative attacks.

Behold_the_Void
2007-07-27, 03:19 PM
You may be able to do better with magical equipment, but here's something you might consider:

Option A: Run. Keep running. About the only thing you have up on the vampire is that you're faster. This isn't a test of in-game ability, but a test of out-of-character patience. Keep saying you run until your DM stops being a **** about this encounter.

Option B: Candle of Invocation Gate Trick. I normally don't advocate anything like this, but in your situation it seems appropriate. Actually, you wouldn't even necessarily have to use gate loop, gating in one Solar or Pit Fiend might be enough. If it isn't, just get more than one candle.

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-28, 03:28 AM
Well, Arbitrarity and Jack Mann, thanks! This means the chances for the monk increase from good to better. So the only way to get multiple attacks in grapple is if you have the improved unarmed strike or improved grapple feat (even as a monster?). Wow. Still, the vampyre brother may have taken those feats in his barbarian levels, so it might be that he could slam attack several times while grappling. I'm looking forward to that battle now.

Otherwise, the candle of invocation trick would be likely something the DM does not allow...if he allows it on both side, the duel takes on a completely different character. Not sure if that is what is intended.

- Giacomo

Jack Mann
2007-07-28, 05:18 AM
He still wouldn't be able to get multiple slams. He'd get multiple unarmed strikes. They are similar, but not the same. A slam attack is not an unarmed strike, and an unarmed strike is not a slam attack. Rather, he would get his unarmed strikes and his slam attack.

Armads
2007-07-28, 09:32 AM
Hmm, would it be possible to get one 'set' dust of dryness, dump it into 100 gallons of holy water (a lake, maybe?), and throw it at the vampire?
Since 1 lb of holy water deals 2d4 damage, how much would 100 gallons deal...

Arbitrarity
2007-07-28, 10:53 AM
I once ended up with a decanter of endless holy water, used as a defense against undead. Wasn't as damaging as might be expected, but it was hilarious to watch the little soldiers screaming and running, then tipping this HUGE vat of water on various undead.

Deuce
2007-07-30, 03:30 PM
OK, so how'd it go down?

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-30, 03:36 PM
Still hasn't yet. The DM cancelled our most recent game to pack for a vacation that he hasn't come back from yet. I'm getting more confident now though. If I can even get as much as the scarab of protection and the potion of silversheen, I think I'll manage just fine.

Pestlepup
2007-07-31, 02:36 AM
I know I'm digging up an old debate, but this has been bugging me for some while. You see, about vampires and damage reduction, Iku Rex is correct. (I initially thought, like some others, that a vampire's DR is entirely supernatural. Then I actually read what Iku posted.)

The long version for those who still care: :smallsmile:


Damage reduction is extraordinary...

This is the groundwork for the entire special quality. More specifically, how the D&D world relates to Damage Reduction.


...unless the weapon property that bypasses the damage reduction is “magic” or one of the four alignment qualities, in which case it is
supernatural.

Now, this part goes on to elaborate, that in certain instances, for the purposes of defining the SQ in D&D terms, it will be marked as (Su). For brevity's, and purposes of simplicity I wager, no ability or quality is mechanically classified as both Su and Ex.


Damage reduction that is bypassed by any other weapon quality that a manufactured weapon could not have without being magical also would be a supernatural special quality.

This part states, that a damage reduction that can be bypassed without the actual use of magic (I.e. special weapon materials specifically) is, by its nature in the D&D world, extraordinary. This is the important part. Damage reduction vulnerable to silver, adamantine, cold iron and so forth, is, by definition, an extraordinary quality. Pairing vulnerability to a specific material with a vulnerability to a magical effect (be it magic itself or some alignment axis) will not change this fact. It will, however, for the purposes of stats entry, change its definition to (Su). We clear on this? Materials - Ex, magic - Su.


When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.

When we've gotten this far, it should be apparent what the FAQ writers mean by this. The reference to "extraordinary elements" means vulnerability to materials (as we learned above) and "supernatural elements" is the additional requirement for magic, good or whatever. This much should be clear. So what the FAQ (and Iku Rex) is saying, is that a creature with say, from the top of my hat, DR 10/Silver and magic would, when forced in an antimagic field, lose only the magic denominator of its DR, even as the SQ is classified supernatural (due to the magical element).

Furthermore, it is simple to derive, that when a circumstance causes the loss of supernatural abilities (such as Gaseous Form), the same rule will hold. Only the supernatural element of DR is forsaken in that case. That is, the magic part. So, by the rules, a vampire in gaseous form would first lose the magic denominator from its DR, leaving it with DR 10/silver. Then, from the spell effect, it would gain DR 10/magic. Since damage reductions don't stack, the vampire will use only the better one in any circumstance. Now it will have separate qualities of DR 10/silver (Ex) and DR 10/magic (Su from the GF). In practice, however, it is apparent that while the vampire can benefit from only the best DR at a time, it is still impossible to overcome its DR without a magical silvered weapon. Thus, in effect, the vampire still has DR 10/silver and magic.

Someone argued, can't remember who, that the silver DR could be considered tied to the vampire's corporeal form. While it is not counterintuitive, as vapor isn't usually vulnerable to silver, it wouldn't hold under scrutiny in my opinion. Vapor isn't usually capable of regeneration or special forms of vision, so would the vampire's fast healing and vision modes also be removed? This will complicate matters enough to make it not worth the effort. Gaseous vampire may not be in it's pristine physical form, but for the sake of argument, it would still be the same on a spiritual or metaphysical level. It is, after all, magic and supernatural monsters we're talking about.

The short version for those who don't:

Iku was right, all rejoice. Vampire's get to keep their precious DR 10/silver. :smallsmile:

Sir Giacomo
2007-07-31, 03:53 AM
Iku was right, all rejoice. Vampire's get to keep their precious DR 10/silver. :smallsmile:

No, he was not, although his line of argument was quite good. Still, the entry in the MM on vampires is crystal clear: the damage reduction of both magic AND silver for vampires is a supernatural ability. Thus, it is lost in gaseous form. It is really quite simple. As Arbitrarity has rightfully stated before, special rule trumps general rule.

- Giacomo

WitchSlayer
2007-07-31, 05:00 AM
Besides, if it did keep its DR, then it would have DR 10/magic TWICE. If it kept it in its gaseous form, then they wouldn't need to state that he had it.

AdversusVeritas
2007-07-31, 08:35 AM
Iku was right, all rejoice. Vampire's get to keep their precious DR 10/silver. :smallsmile:If we stick with the core rules, the vampire clearly loses the DR 10/silver when it assumes gaseous form. It is only if we adopt the FAQ that things get more complicated than that. So far in our group we have used the FAQ as a helpful way of resolving disputes, but we have not considered it as authoritative as the rules themselves. I haven't asked my DM about it yet, but I'm pretty sure that the FAQ will at least be considered. On the other hand, he may just let me buy some silversheen and the issue won't even come up.

tannish2
2007-07-31, 01:15 PM
I wish I were making this up, but I actually don't have access to my other party members and I don't have any way of getting more equipment. I was brought to a prison where they took everything but my protective gear (didn't have much else anyway) before I got to the arena. I'll have to check my character sheet though, because I think I may have a holy symbol. I guess I could use that to hold him at bay until all of his rage runs out.

Edit: Wait a minute, I think I may have a way of getting a stake.

it says they cannt make melee attacks against you for the REST OF THE COMBAT (i think someone said that, and im not clear on vampire rules, i usually just shoot them or melt them until they gaseous, which would be another significant problem, youde need to find his coffin) if you strongly present a holy symbol or something, so then all you have to worry about is ranged and if the DM is doing this he probably focused on melee so strongly that he forgot about it, possibly having a low opinion of either your intelligence/player experience/recources(such as this forum), or assuming that he wouldnt need it, because your a monk, or just forgetting about it because hes a noob (as a noob DM i can honestly say that i almost always do that with NPCs ><) and even if he does have one, you will still be able to catch and pwn him because ranged attacks arent THAT bad from a character like that, especially if hes retreating from you, your get charges and attacks of opprotunity

Pestlepup
2007-07-31, 03:11 PM
No, he was not, although his line of argument was quite good. Still, the entry in the MM on vampires is crystal clear: the damage reduction of both magic AND silver for vampires is a supernatural ability. Thus, it is lost in gaseous form. It is really quite simple. As Arbitrarity has rightfully stated before, special rule trumps general rule.

- Giacomo

*sigh* Yes, he was. Though I can see this will never evolve beyond repetitive gainsaying. If someone is interested why I think Iku was, in fact, correct, read the spoiler on my previous post. Or Iku's original. Either one will do. They're the same thing, really. I just tried to break it down a bit.

Deadmeat.GW
2007-07-31, 07:34 PM
<<<When a creature’s damage reduction entry has two or more
elements, some extraordinary and some supernatural, only the
supernatural elements go away inside an antimagic field.>>>

As from the faq you quoted, note the notion of some extraordinary and some supernatural.
I.e. if stated that both are this or one or the other is (ex) / (su) then the ruling is very clear.
The (ex) part stays, the (su) part goes.

However if the dr is only (su) you do not have an (ex) part and the whole thing goes.

DR silver and magic (su) is one rule, a very specific rule and as such should overrule a basic rule just like if you have an ability become supernatural through class advantages or feats you will loose them when turning gaseous if there is no specific ruling saying otherwise.

The rules here specifically stated that DR for a vampire is a supernatural ability, you cannot assume that the printed rules are incorrect all the time and there is no errata for the vampire entry as far as I can see.

There are entries where (su) and (ex) has been used btw, fairly badly written too, but it specified that there is a dual origin for the abilities.

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 08:14 PM
The rules here specifically stated that DR for a vampire is a supernatural ability, you cannot assume that the printed rules are incorrect all the time and there is no errata for the vampire entry as far as I can see.Actually, the MM errata identifies DR X/silver or DR X/cold iron as (Su).

This was changed in the more recent Official 3.5 FAQ.

(Cue endless debate over whether or not WotC is "allowed" to publish errata in a document not entitled "errata", and if so, if the FAQ entry was intended as errata.)


There are entries where (su) and (ex) has been used btw, ...Where? The lich template has damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic but the MM still calls it (Su).

Arbitrarity
2007-07-31, 08:23 PM
Actually, I agreed with many of Iku's points in some respects. 2 reasons for disagreement:

1: Stubborness :smallsigh:
2: When you help a player, you try to help them with any given argument. This includes technicalities, questionable rulings, etc.

I guessed that the (Su) descriptor could be expanded to be (Ex/Su) in some respect, though that was a bit strange, and certainly more of a stretch. The flurry bit was rather silly, all things considered. However, checking various boards, and searching, I've found in most instances it's a "Not enough data for a concrete decision. Ask your DM".