Sorcerer: Cheesey McCheese Edition

[dropbear8mybaby]

I'm trying to determine if I've missed something in my interpretation of the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, you can Quicken a cantrip to cast it as a bonus action, and then Twin a different cantrip, allowing you to cast three cantrips in a turn, essentially. Is that right?

From what I understand, the metamagic limitation is only on the same spell so this doesn't break that. And technically you're only casting two cantrips which is also allowed by the rules. I can't find any Sage Advice or errata that contradicts this interpretation but I'm sure I must be missing something because that seems pretty bonkers.

[EvilAnagram]

That is precisely how it works.

[Oramac]

That is precisely how it works.

Indeed.

The thing that keeps it from being Ultra-Cheese is the limited amount of Sorcery Points you have. Doing that is 3 points (2 for Quicken, 1 for Twin). So even at 20th level you can only do that 6 times, total. And it means you're only casting cantrips. If you decide to Twin Greater Invisibility instead of your cantrip casting, that's 4 Points by itself, which severely limits your cheese. So the total amount of cheese is fairly low.

[Naanomi]

Don't forget to dip Fighter 2 for action surge and another twinned Cantrip?

[Crusher]

Don't forget to dip Fighter 2 for action surge and another twinned Cantrip?

And naturally you'd have taken 2 levels of warlock, so at level 20 you'd be tossing out 4 EB's per cantrip, giving you a total of 20 attack rolls with an action surge.

Its not so much that its OP in terms of damage done (though its certainly significant, ~210 damage if they all hit), but that's one heck of a lot of rolls.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Indeed.

The thing that keeps it from being Ultra-Cheese is the limited amount of Sorcery Points you have. Doing that is 3 points (2 for Quicken, 1 for Twin). So even at 20th level you can only do that 6 times, total. And it means you're only casting cantrips. If you decide to Twin Greater Invisibility instead of your cantrip casting, that's 4 Points by itself, which severely limits your cheese. So the total amount of cheese is fairly low.
Well, I plan to use spells mostly for utility so Haste, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, and Shield spam. The rest of the slots get turned into more spell points so it lasts a bit longer.


Don't forget to dip Fighter 2 for action surge and another twinned Cantrip?
Going 6 EK all up with gold dragon sorcerer origin and the HotDQ background that has her being a naughty gold dragon turned into a human by Bahamut. Using Greenflame in general for the bonus fire damage and twinning booming. Fire and lightning. So I named her Pelope Astape. Corrupted from the origins of Pele and Astrape, goddesses of fire and lightning :)

[Submortimer]

And naturally you'd have taken 2 levels of warlock, so at level 20 you'd be tossing out 4 EB's per cantrip, giving you a total of 20 attack rolls with an action surge.

Its not so much that its OP in terms of damage done (though its certainly significant, ~210 damage if they all hit), but that's one heck of a lot of rolls.

Except you can't twin EB: single target spells only.

[Naanomi]

Except you can't twin EB: single target spells only.
Yeah, three castings per round (normal, quicken, action surge) is the best you can do; at potentially extreme range with a pushback effect... Assassin can make them all Critical hits as well (surprise rounds easier at Spell Sniper + Distant Spell + Eldritch Spear range)

Need to use a single-target Cantrip (and have two targets, since twin can't hit the same person) for your version

[Oramac]

Well, I plan to use spells mostly for utility so Haste...Greater Invisibility

You can Twin both of those, and they can both break encounters when Twinned right. Don't limit yourself to just using Metamagic on cantrips.

[Asmotherion]

I'm trying to determine if I've missed something in my interpretation of the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, you can Quicken a cantrip to cast it as a bonus action, and then Twin a different cantrip, allowing you to cast three cantrips in a turn, essentially. Is that right?

From what I understand, the metamagic limitation is only on the same spell so this doesn't break that. And technically you're only casting two cantrips which is also allowed by the rules. I can't find any Sage Advice or errata that contradicts this interpretation but I'm sure I must be missing something because that seems pretty bonkers.

It's exactly how it works... the only limitation is that Twin specifically needs you to choose two targets, so you have less single-target damage, but more overall damage.

It's not broken, it's balanced enough, considering the damage this does is on par with other builds, and there are more powerfull mechanics either way.

An example of really broken almost at-will damage is quickening an upercasted scorching ray on a Hexed target, then casting eldritch blast (with Agonising Blast if Sorlock). Or a Two Weapon fighter with Hex/Hunter's mark. Or an archer with the same, and sharpshooter+crosbow master. Or just Meteor Swarm.

My point is that, wile it's a prety good combination, there are things much more broken than this.

[dropbear8mybaby]

My point is that, wile it's a prety good combination, there are things much more broken than this.

I'll make sure to let my DM know that, over and over and over again until he relents :)

[Jerrykhor]

You can add Empowered on top of all that too, but its hardly cheese because its just cantrips, plus you will burn through your sorcery points very fast. I assume you are using the Firebolt spell, because most Cheesy McMulticlass Sorlocks will use Quickened Eldritch Blast, and you can't Twin it.

Your sorcery points is very limited, and unless you want to burn spell slots for more points... I personally wouldn't recommend it. Utility is important, and more so than a bit of extra damage. Take useful spells, control the battlefield for more impact. You are not running a WoW raid with DPS meters.

[LudicSavant]

I'm trying to determine if I've missed something in my interpretation of the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, you can Quicken a cantrip to cast it as a bonus action, and then Twin a different cantrip, allowing you to cast three cantrips in a turn, essentially. Is that right?

From what I understand, the metamagic limitation is only on the same spell so this doesn't break that. And technically you're only casting two cantrips which is also allowed by the rules. I can't find any Sage Advice or errata that contradicts this interpretation but I'm sure I must be missing something because that seems pretty bonkers.

Yes, this is exactly how it works. No, it's not really bonkers (or even one of the stronger things for spellcasters to do with their time).

[Ngagn]

Well that's cheesy... hope my players doesn't know about this

[LudicSavant]

Cheesy? :smallconfused:

Quickened/Twinned Fire Bolt:
Single target damage: ~11 (1-4), ~22 (5-10), ~33 (11-16), ~44 (17-20).
Two-target damage: ~11 (first) and 5.5 (second) (1-4), ~22 (first) and ~11 (second) (5-10), ~33 (first) and ~16.5 (second) (11-16), ~44 (first) and ~22 (second) (17-20)
Utility: Nothing. Just damage.
Damage type: One of the worst damage types.
Resource cost: Burns 3 precious sorcery points per use. Each time you do this combo you could have cast 3 more Shields, or a Hold Person or something.

Standard Hex Eldritch Blast that every Warlock uses:
Single or Multi-Target Damage: Up to ~14+ riders (1-4), ~28+riders (5-10), ~42+riders (11-16), ~56+riders (17-20).
Utility: Powerful riders include 10-40 foot knockback, disadvantage on ability checks, and more. These can be even more valuable than the damage.
Damage type: Force, one of the best damage types.
Resource Cost: One casting of Hex lasts you pretty much all day (or at least until your next short rest at low levels), unless people are breaking your concentration.

Standard Eldritch Blast with no Hex: Up to 10.5+riders (1-4), 21+riders (5-10), 31.5+riders (11-16), 42+riders (17-20).
Utility: Same as above, minus the Hex stuff.
Damage type: Force, one of the best damage types.
Resource Cost: Nothiiiiing.

So basically, typical Eldritch Blast is just as good (if not better) than quickened or twinned fire bolt, for free. With Hex, Eldritch Blast is about as good as Twinned *and* Quickened Fire Bolt. And that's before we're counting riders and resource costs.

[NNescio]

Cheesy? :smallconfused:

Quickened/Twinned Fire Bolt:
Single target damage: ~11 (1-4), ~22 (5-10), ~33 (11-16), ~44 (17-20).
Two-target damage: ~11 (first) and 5.5 (second) (1-4), ~22 (first) and ~11 (second) (5-10), ~33 (first) and ~16.5 (second) (11-16), ~44 (first) and ~22 (second) (17-20)
Utility: Nothing. Just damage.
Damage type: One of the worst damage types.
Resource cost: Burns 3 precious sorcery points per use. Each time you do this combo you could have cast 3 more Shields, or a Hold Person or something.

Standard Hex Eldritch Blast that every Warlock uses:
Single or Multi-Target Damage: Up to ~14+ riders (1-4), ~28+riders (5-10), ~42+riders (11-16), ~56+riders (17-20).
Utility: Powerful riders include 10-40 foot knockback, disadvantage on ability checks, and more. These can be even more valuable than the damage.
Damage type: Force, one of the best damage types.
Resource Cost: One casting of Hex lasts you pretty much all day (or at least until your next short rest at low levels), unless people are breaking your concentration.

Standard Eldritch Blast with no Hex: Up to 10.5+riders (1-4), 21+riders (5-10), 31.5+riders (11-16), 42+riders (17-20).
Utility: Same as above, minus the Hex stuff.
Damage type: Force, one of the best damage types.
Resource Cost: Nothiiiiing.

So basically, typical Eldritch Blast is just as good (if not better) than quickened or twinned fire bolt, for free. With Hex, Eldritch Blast is about as good as Twinned *and* Quickened Fire Bolt. And that's before we're counting riders and resource costs.

Be a Sorlock and have the best of both worlds?

I mean, sure, that's like losing two-three levels of spellcasting (and other class features including ASIs). But personally speaking the Sorcerer doesn't offer much to the table that a Wizard, Bard or straight Warlock can do better, due to his limited spells known and limited use of metamagic (which to be honest, isn't particularly unique anyway as other classes can get equivalent effects for free, other than Subtle Spell tricks in spellcaster duels and against some legendary monsters.)

Might as well go Sorlock and carve out your own niche as Magic Archer Supreme.

Also gives you the practical equivalent of Sorcerous Restoration (or half Sorcerous Restoration for 2 Lock dips) far, far earlier, letting you throw around far more metamagic (and a ridiculous amount of low level slots).

[LudicSavant]

But personally speaking the Sorcerer doesn't offer much to the table that a Wizard, Bard or straight Warlock can do better Which is exactly why calling the Sorcerer "cheesy" or "broken" for using what isn't even one of their better tactics is inappropriate. Misinformation, even.

____________________________________________

Edit: Forget comparing to the Warlock, let's compare to the Sorcerer who doesn't even use any class features besides simply casting a non-metamagic spell. This is an easy enough comparison to make, because Sorcery Points and Spell Slots convert into each other. Okay, you're a level 5 Sorcerer and you have two targets, the best possible case for Twin/Quicken. You could either give up a third level spell slot (not to mention two precious metamagics known) to get 3 sorcery points for twin/quicken, or you could cast fireball, the non-optimized evoker's weapon of choice.

Okay then, let's compare those two options.

Fire Bolts: +7 to hit (assuming 18 Charisma), 2d10 damage on a hit, with 3 rays split amongst two targets. No damage if you miss. However, unlike Fireball, it does have a chance to crit, so I'll factor that in.
Fireball: Save DC 15 (assuming 18 Charisma), 8d6 damage on a failed save, half damage on a successful save. Can hit as many targets as you want within its massive area, but since we're giving Twin/Quicken Fire Bolt the best possible case here there are only two targets.

8d6*2 is 56. 6d10 is 33. That's already 170% of the damage output. But that's a naive comparison, failing to take into account the full variety of factors affecting DPR. Fire Bolt targets AC, and misses completely on a miss. Fireball targets a Dex save (which is on average worse than AC), and deals half damage on a successful save. This often means that the DPR is more than double that of Twinned/Quickened Firebolt in the two-targets case for Twinned/Quickened Firebolt.

So, let's look at some CR5 monsters, and try out our DPR against two of them (factoring in criticals, hit rate, etc etc). For simplicity I'll ignore damage resistances (they're both fire anyways), the goal is just to get some DPR numbers from sample ACs/save bonuses to calibrate your expectations. (Results are rounded to the nearest hundredth)
DPR: Gorgon | T/Q Firebolts 16.5 | Fireball 39.2 | Fireball is ~138% extra damage.
Night Hag | T/Q Firebolts 19.8 | Fireball 33.6 | Fireball is ~70% extra damage.
Half-Dragon Veteran | T/Q Firebolts 18.15 | Fireball 36.4 | Fireball is ~100% extra damage.
Werebear | T/Q Firebolts 29.7 | Fireball 39.2 | Fireball is ~32% extra damage.
Otyugh | T/Q Firebolts 24.75 | Fireball 39.2 | Fireball is ~63% extra damage.
Revenant | T/Q Firebolts 26.4 | Fireball 33.6 | Fireball is ~27% extra damage.
Roper | T/Q Firebolts 14.85 | Fireball 42 | Fireball is ~183% extra damage. Nearly triple.
Sahuagin Baron | T/Q Firebolts 21.45 | Fireball 25.2 | Even with its lowish AC and high +5 dex save, the Sahuagin Baron takes ~17% extra damage from Fireball.
Shambling Mound | T/Q Firebolts 23.1 | Fireball 42 | Fireball is ~82% extra damage.
Red Slaad | T/Q Firebolts 24.75 | Fireball 36.4 | Fireball is ~47% extra damage.
Troll | T/Q Firebolts 23.1 | Fireball 36.4 | Fireball is ~58% extra damage.
Umber Hulk | T/Q Firebolts 18.15 | Fireball 36.4 | Fireball is ~100% extra damage.
Drow Elite Warrior | T/Q Firebolts 18.15 | Fireball 19.6 | Despite the Drow Elite Warrior having the highest dex save of any CR 5 creature, (and indeed, one of the highest dex saves in the game), it also has a high AC, and therefore Fireball is ~8% extra damage.
Vampire Spawn | T/Q Firebolts 23.1 | Fireball 22.4 | With its lowish AC and whopping +6 dex save (the highest of all CR5 creatures), Firebolts actually gets 3% extra damage!
Xorn | T/Q Firebolts 16.5 | Fireball 39.2 | Fireball is ~138% extra damage.
Mezzoloth | T/Q Firebolts 18.15 | Fireball 39.2 | Fireball is ~116% extra damage.
Beholder Zombie | T/Q Firebolts 23.1 | Fireball 42 | Fireball is ~82% extra damage.
Giant Crocodile | T/Q Firebolts 24.75 | Fireball 42 | Fireball is ~70% extra damage.

Note that if there are more than two targets, this goes much farther in Fireball's favor, as if it wasn't already enough.

In order for Twin/Quicken Fire Bolts to be any good, you need to focus a good deal of build resources around it (fire dragon sorcerer, elemental adept, etc etc), and even then it's just sort of... okay?


Be a Sorlock and have the best of both worlds? Being a sorlock doesn't actually get you the best of both worlds. You can't Twin eldritch blast (therefore the combo being discussed by this thread doesn't apply at all). You have 3 less caster levels than the competition, so you're casting 3rd level spells while they're churning out 5s (with more slots to boot). Quickening Eldritch Blast sometimes competes with your bonus action economy (such as applying Hex), but is decent to have on hand.

[samcifer]

I have a question on EB and metamagic. Can I use Quickened on EB then use a normal eb in the same turn?

Say I'm at lv. 17. Can I quicken EB for 4 blasts, then use EB a second time in the same turn for 8 beams in one turn?

[prototype00]

Wasn't there a Sage Advice that stated that if you targeted all the Blasts at one target, Eldritch Blast was a single target spell?

Maybe not. I need to look.

[SharkForce]

I have a question on EB and metamagic. Can I use Quickened on EB then use a normal eb in the same turn?

Say I'm at lv. 17. Can I quicken EB for 4 blasts, then use EB a second time in the same turn for 8 beams in one turn?

yes. twin doesn't work, but you can quicken, then cast again, because eldritch blast is a cantrip that takes one action to cast.

[samcifer]

yes. twin doesn't work, but you can quicken, then cast again, because eldritch blast is a cantrip that takes one action to cast.

Yay! Thanks for finding the answer for me. :)

[Specter]

I have a question on EB and metamagic. Can I use Quickened on EB then use a normal eb in the same turn?

Say I'm at lv. 17. Can I quicken EB for 4 blasts, then use EB a second time in the same turn for 8 beams in one turn?

Yes, you can.

[Naanomi]

Yay! Thanks for finding the answer for me. :)
Then action surge for a third go if you really need to

[Matrix_Walker]

There is nothing cheesy about burning all your metamagic resources for a round of super glory. It's usually somewhat shortsighted, but that's a different matter...

You may as well say it's cheesy for a monk to use stunning strike on all his attacks and flurry of blows. Same dif.

[Specter]

About the thread's spirit, the only reason why metamagic isn't overpowered is precisely because it costs resources to use it. In other words, it's a good but not broken mechanic.

But it is very underrated nonetheless. Paladins spend their very limited spells on smites and the consensus is that it's an awesome ability, but when a sorcerer spends sorcery points to twin Greater Inviaibility, or Heighten a save-or-suck that will end the battle, or Quicken a Fireball to dodge their enemies (yes, it's usually better to Dodge than to cast a cantrip), people apparently don't give it much credit.

[Byke]

Be a Sorlock and have the best of both worlds?

I mean, sure, that's like losing two-three levels of spellcasting (and other class features including ASIs). But personally speaking the Sorcerer doesn't offer much to the table that a Wizard, Bard or straight Warlock can do better, due to his limited spells known and limited use of metamagic (which to be honest, isn't particularly unique anyway as other classes can get equivalent effects for free, other than Subtle Spell tricks in spellcaster duels and against some legendary monsters.)

Might as well go Sorlock and carve out your own niche as Magic Archer Supreme.

Also gives you the practical equivalent of Sorcerous Restoration (or half Sorcerous Restoration for 2 Lock dips) far, far earlier, letting you throw around far more metamagic (and a ridiculous amount of low level slots).

I agree with Paladin is the most optimized choice if you are taking Sorcerer.

But if you have you heart set on EK and being the magical archer then I would recommend taking it to 7th (War MAgic) and then taking 2 levels of Warlock (Then the rogue the rest of the way).

At higher levels a normal attack routine will be 4 EB (4d10) + Xbow short (1d10)+ Hex dam (5d6)+ Sneak (6d6)

You will have enough feat to max Dex/char and get yourself Xbow expert and or SS

[SharkForce]

About the thread's spirit, the only reason why metamagic isn't overpowered is precisely because it costs resources to use it. In other words, it's a good but not broken mechanic.

But it is very underrated nonetheless. Paladins spend their very limited spells on smites and the consensus is that it's an awesome ability, but when a sorcerer spends sorcery points to twin Greater Inviaibility, or Heighten a save-or-suck that will end the battle, or Quicken a Fireball to dodge their enemies (yes, it's usually better to Dodge than to cast a cantrip), people apparently don't give it much credit.

the heck are you talking about?

nobody thinks metamagic is bad. lots of people think *sorcerer* is a poorly designed class that requires excessive levels of optimization to get proper value out of it, and making a mistake can be difficult or impossible to fix (since you can never change metamagic, and only change one spell per level). many people even consider the sorcerer as a whole to be weak. but i have *never* seen anyone say that metamagic is not awesome. not worth being a sorcerer? sure. that comes up a lot. but never that it isn't good.

[Doug Lampert]

Wasn't there a Sage Advice that stated that if you targeted all the Blasts at one target, Eldritch Blast was a single target spell?

Maybe not. I need to look.

Lots of people said that on line. But Sage Advice said exactly the opposite, so do rules as written.

The rule is that twin spell lets you target two creatures with a spell, it does not cast the spell twice (if it did then you couldn't twin any concentration spell). Eldritch blast at level 17+ can target up to four creatures, if you COULD twin it, then the entire and only effect would be to REDUCE the number of possible targets to two at the cost of one sorcery point. Because twin doesn't create additional rays or a second casting, it increases the number of allowed targets to two, which does not in any way help with a spell that can already target two or more.

People try to insist that twin casts the spell twice when that's advantageous (scorching ray or eldritch blast) while simultaneously claiming it only casts the spell once with two targets when that's advantageous (haste). That's not how it works.

[Specter]

the heck are you talking about?

nobody thinks metamagic is bad. lots of people think *sorcerer* is a poorly designed class that requires excessive levels of optimization to get proper value out of it, and making a mistake can be difficult or impossible to fix (since you can never change metamagic, and only change one spell per level). many people even consider the sorcerer as a whole to be weak. but i have *never* seen anyone say that metamagic is not awesome. not worth being a sorcerer? sure. that comes up a lot. but never that it isn't good.

People don't say it's bad, they say it's expensive. Every time you mention something cool like effectively casting 3 cantrips someone will state "yeah, but it's 3 sorcery points". My point is, so what? If it's doing the job, you paid the right price.

[coredump]

I'm trying to determine if I've missed something in my interpretation of the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, you can Quicken a cantrip to cast it as a bonus action, and then Twin a different cantrip, allowing you to cast three cantrips in a turn, essentially. Is that right?

From what I understand, the metamagic limitation is only on the same spell so this doesn't break that. And technically you're only casting two cantrips which is also allowed by the rules. I can't find any Sage Advice or errata that contradicts this interpretation but I'm sure I must be missing something because that seems pretty bonkers.

I'm going to disagree with this.

The way I read metamagic, there is nothing stopping you from using quicken and twin on two castings of the same spell. No need to use two different cantrips.

[SharkForce]

People don't say it's bad, they say it's expensive. Every time you mention something cool like effectively casting 3 cantrips someone will state "yeah, but it's 3 sorcery points". My point is, so what? If it's doing the job, you paid the right price.

not if there's a better and less expensive way to do it. i'm rather doubtful that three cantrips (one of which is really just a cantrip that hits an extra target) is three times as good as one cantrip that hits an extra target.

[dropbear8mybaby]

So, my end build was a scourge aasimar. Starting stats of Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17.

Six levels of EK with the War Caster feat, and Draconic sorcerer for 14 levels. 20th level stats end up with Dex 20, Cha 20.

The idea is to have primarily combat and defence buffing spells which are used as needed. Primarily haste, shield, absorb elements and blink. There are a couple of "dead" spell levels where nothing much attractive exists for this concept. Those are the first to be used to gain more spell points during an adventuring day.

Going "nova" means using Action Surge to cast Haste, Regular action to cast Blink, then moving at 60 ft. speed to melee at least two opponents and using quicken spell to cast greenflame blade and another attack from Haste.

Then you blink, you're fine, if you don't, you have War Caster to cast booming blade as a reaction, +2 AC for a total of 20 AC plus shield if you need it, and casting Greenflame blade as a quickened spell, twinning booming blade as your action, and getting an extra haste attack in.

If you're hitting with all those attacks, it's actually pretty awesome damage. It requires multiple targets (at least two every turn), but it's pretty great IMO. And since your focus is melee, not spellcasting, burning slots for more spell points isn't an issue.

[Malifice]

I'm trying to determine if I've missed something in my interpretation of the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, you can Quicken a cantrip to cast it as a bonus action, and then Twin a different cantrip, allowing you to cast three cantrips in a turn, essentially. Is that right?

Yes thats right.

For the cost of 3 SP. You'll run out very fast doing it, and you're still behind the at will damage of things like a Sharpshooter Ranger/ Fighter or GWM Barbarian etc.

A 9th level Sorcerer doing this runs out of SP in 3 rounds (around 1 encounter). Assuming Firebolt (and Red Dragon bloodline, and Cha 20) he makes 3 attacks at +9, with each blast dealing 2d10+5 damage.

Decent, but in no way 'broken' (particularly considering the resource expenditure required).

Consider he is expected to have to conserve those long rest resources (sorcery points) over 6-8 medium-hard encounters


I'm sure I must be missing something because that seems pretty bonkers.

Its not bonkers at all.

For the cost of 3SP its very expensive resource wise indeed presuming the DM is cleaving reasonably closely to the expectation of 6-8 encounters between long rests.

Even at 9th level, you're spitting out 6d10+15 (48) damage (at +9 to hit) for the cost of 3SP per round. A Sharpshooter Ranger (Hunter) is spitting out 3d8+2d6+30 (50) damage at (+6 to hit) - more with magic ammunition and/ or magic bow - with his only resource expenditure being a single Hunters Mark spell (that lasts all day at this level).

[Malifice]

Going "nova" means using Action Surge

Action surge grants you an extra action (in addition to your bonus action).


to cast Haste

That uses one of your actions. Movement plus one action and one bonus action (plus one single weapon attack from Haste) to go.


Regular action to cast Blink

That uses your action surge extra action. Movement plus one bonus action and one extra single attack (from Haste) to go.


then moving at 60 ft.

Movement now used up.


to melee at least two opponents and using quicken spell to cast greenflame blade and another attack from Haste.

One quickened cantrip (bonus action) plus the extra attack from Haste. Check.

You make two attacks (one greenflame blade and one normal standard melee weapon attack). Dealing a rather modest amount of damage (5d8+19 and splash of 3d8+10 assuming longsword, fire sorcerer and dueling) for a 20th level PC. Two creatures get damaged for 30 points each at +11 to hit.

Then you get clobbered by the two creatures in return. At 20th level (presuming a party of 5 of you), you should expect to be encountering stuff like 6 x Fire giants (CR 9) as a standard encounter (of which you can expect around 6-8 of between long rests).

They have multiattack (2 attacks) also at +11, dealing around 30 points of damage per swing.

Your 20th level PC is on par with CR 9 monsters. He's used his action surge, 2 x 3rd level spell slots, and 2 SP to do it.

By contrast look at a GWM Battlemaster (precise attack, menacing attack, riposte) simply walking over and swinging his Greataxe, toggling GWM 'on'. For the cost of Action surge and a few superiority die (that refresh on a short rest) he's spitting out 4 times the number of attacks you are, and each one is dealing more damage.

He's likely dealing 160+ damage and killing the first fire giant with his 8 GWM attacks, and then triggering a bonus action cleave attack on the last one standing.

He doesnt have spells of course, so you have that over him. But I certainly dont consider the damage your PC spitting out in your example above to be overwhelming at 20th level.

Heck, I see 5th level Rangers dealing that kind of damage.

Have you ever played 5E at high (15th+) level? The kinds of damage that gets tossed out at that level is bonkers (as is the save DCs, hit bonuses, and monster HP you need to chew through).

[dropbear8mybaby]

You make two attacks (one greenflame blade and one normal standard melee weapon attack). Dealing a rather modest amount of damage (5d8+19 and splash of 3d8+10 assuming longsword, fire sorcerer and dueling) for a 20th level PC. Two creatures get damaged for 30 points each at +11 to hit.
That's the first turn in combat. The second turn is GFB + BB + BB + Melee.

Also, your math seems off.

GFB: 7d8 + 15 = 1d8 + 5 for rapier plus 3d8 for GFB primary attack plus 3d8+5 for GFB secondary attack plus +5 for elemental affinity.

Then 1d8 + 5 for second rapier attack.

On subsequent turns, you then include two BB attacks on top of that:

BB: 8d8 + 10 plus another 8d8 if both targets move.

So that's 16d8 + 30 per turn, assuming no magical items. Potentially a total of 24d8 + 30.


They have multiattack (2 attacks) also at +11, dealing around 30 points of damage per swing.
Sure, if the character hasn't blinked out of there, gaining an extra 10 ft. of movement when she returns. And of course still has the shield spell so 25 (assuming no magical items) AC.


Have you ever played 5E at high (15th+) level?
Nice try.

[Malifice]

That's the first turn in combat. The second turn is GFB + BB + BB + Melee.

For 3 SP per round.

Its more viable at higher levels (20th) but 3 SP per round over 7 encounters (each with around 4-5 rounds) per long rest (plus haste and blink and action surge) isnt sustainable for pretty much most of this characters career. Its a hefty resource expenditure.

Im not persuaded its something really worth aiming for either.

Also, your math seems off.


GFB: 7d8 + 15 = 1d8 + 5 for rapier plus 3d8 for GFB primary attack plus 3d8+5 for GFB secondary attack plus +5 for elemental affinity.

Then 1d8 + 5 for second rapier attack

8d8+20 damage split on two targets = 56 damage. I said around 30 damage per target (2 targets) so I was actually favoring you slightly.

56 damage, split among 2 targets, at 20th level, isnt really 'wow' factor.


On subsequent turns, you then include two BB attacks on top of that:

BB: 8d8 + 10 plus another 8d8 if both targets move.

So that's 16d8 + 30 per turn, assuming no magical items. Potentially a total of 24d8 + 30.

Spamming 3SP per turn. Again.

16d8+30 (92 damage) for 3SP resource expenditure, plus haste, plus blink... compared to a GWM Fighter (presuming cleave triggers) 10d6+75 [re-roll 1's and 2's] (100+ damage) for... no resources at all.

Youve really come up with a convoluted way to blow resources to basically match a GWM Fighter's expected at will zero resource damage output at 20th level.

The Fighter can expend +1d12 sup dice to hit, or to damage (gaining advantage via tripping strike) and has both of his two action surges up his sleeve if he really wants to nova (these are short rest resources and come back much easier than sorcery points and spells).


Nice try.

No, Im serious.

Round 1 your PC action surges, casts two spells, moves over to the two fire giants and deals 30 damage to each of two monsters with a haste attack and quickened BB + splash (expending 2 SP).

Then the Fighter has his turn, wanders over and action surges, and wallops each giant a total of 9 times (extra attack from cleave as bonus action), dealing 28 damage per attack (more if he wants to spam his superiority dice.

You do 60 damage (expending your single action surge, 2 x 3rd level spells, and 2 SP). He does 200 damage using his action surge and maybe a few superioirty die (killing a giant - dead giant is a better defence than Blink). At high level you really want to pour on as much damage as possible from round one (as you drop creatures, you start to win the action economy in return, and dont get attacked back).

You catch up next turn (your both dealing around 100 damage) unless he wants to use his second action surge, but you're blowing through 3SP a turn to do it, while he... isnt using any resources at all.

You're seeing 100 damage per turn (starting at turn 2) to be awesome. From experience with high level PCs it really isnt. Around 50-75 damage per turn is probably the benchmark at 20th, and most 20th level PCs hit at this mark with little to no optimisation.

There is the secondary issue that (due to the moderately high resource expenditure the character needs to fuel his metamagic) the tactics only become viable at very high level, or in campaigns featuring single encounter adventuring days.

And if the campaign features only single encounter adventuring days, then there are better nova builds out there (even just adding Paladin 2 to the mix) that makes it much better.

[dropbear8mybaby]

For 3 SP per round.
With 14 SP, and plenty of slots to spare to gain SP throughout the day, as needed.


Its more viable at higher levels (20th) but 3 SP per round over 7 encounters (each with around 4-5 rounds) per long rest (plus haste and blink and action surge) isnt sustainable for pretty much most of this characters career. Its a hefty resource expenditure.
Since we're being picky, "it's".

And who the **** does 7 encounters a day? Nobody, that's who. And IME, most combats are over in 3 rounds, not 4-5.


Also, your math seems off.
Uhuh.


16d8+30 (92 damage) for 3SP resource expenditure, plus haste, plus blink...
102, actually. You were saying?

Haste gives me far more options. Oh, and combine it with dragon wings for a 60 ft. flight speed. Blinking also means that 55% of the time, the character won't even be around to be targeted. All the while, that GWM fighter is getting pummelled.


...compared to a GWM Fighter (presuming cleave triggers) 10d6+75 [re-roll 1's and 2's] (100+ damage) for... no resources at all.
Geezus, wait, you're including GWM's -5/+10? You realise that lowers DPR against high AC monsters, right? So you're comparing the absolutely most favourable outcome for the GWM fighter. I don't even need haste to compete with that or the action surge or the blink.

What's more, who gives a ****? Even if it doesn't out-DPR a GWM fighter, it's still good. Moreover, it's cool.


No, Im serious.
Yah, you're being a serious cocknozzle, for sure. Insinuating that you know everything and I know nothing. Christ, the arrogance of it. This is why I hardly ever come here, dicknuts like you.

[Malifice]

With 14 SP, and plenty of slots to spare to gain SP throughout the day, as needed.


Since we're being picky, "it's".

And who the **** does 7 encounters a day? Nobody, that's who. And IME, most combats are over in 3 rounds, not 4-5.


Uhuh.


102, actually. You were saying?

Haste gives me far more options. Oh, and combine it with dragon wings for a 60 ft. flight speed. Blinking also means that 55% of the time, the character won't even be around to be targeted. All the while, that GWM fighter is getting pummelled.


Geezus, wait, you're including GWM's -5/+10? You realise that lowers DPR against high AC monsters, right? So you're comparing the absolutely most favourable outcome for the GWM fighter. I don't even need haste to compete with that or the action surge or the blink.

What's more, who gives a ****? Even if it doesn't out-DPR a GWM fighter, it's still good. Moreover, it's cool.


Yah, you're being a serious cocknozzle, for sure. Insinuating that you know everything and I know nothing. Christ, the arrogance of it. This is why I hardly ever come here, dicknuts like you.

Jesus mate. Calm down.

Reported.