3.5 Rogue Feat Help

[Curtisw2000]

First time player with my first character and could use a little help with my feats. Decided to do a halfling rogue (a classic that fit into our original party nicely). When building character I wanted to do Weapon Finesse (Str mod of 0 & Dex mod of +4) but didn't meet the BAB perquisite. I was limited to the PHB at the time, so I went with Improved Initiative.

Throughout my 1st level, I quickly discovered I couldn't hit anything. So instead of waiting to level 3 to take Weapon Finesse (as I planned) I took a level of Fighter to get it sooner (and increased HP at level). That may have been a mistake, but I'm stuck with it now.

I'm about to get level 3 and it was mentioned off hand that I could retrain feats when I get my new one. Given that our DM has opened us up to other books, I was thinking of replacing Improved Initiative with TWF, keeping Weapon Finesse, and adding something new.

Sorry for long description but basically I have 2 questions:
1- should I drop Improved Initiative or keep it (taking TWF as 3rd feat)?
2- what are some good feats to consider (for now and future)?

I do want to do the TWF chain, but aside from that, I'm pretty open to suggestions.

[Darrin]

Throughout my 1st level, I quickly discovered I couldn't hit anything. So instead of waiting to level 3 to take Weapon Finesse (as I planned) I took a level of Fighter to get it sooner (and increased HP at level). That may have been a mistake, but I'm stuck with it now.


Rogue with a Fighter dip is a solid choice, although I'd be tempted to ask whether Alternate Character Features (ACFs) are available... there's a Hit-and-Run Fighter ACF in Drow of the Underdark that works really, really well with sneak attack.



1- should I drop Improved Initiative or keep it (taking TWF as 3rd feat)?


Keep it. Improved Initiative is a very good feat to have on a rogue. As far as Core feats go, it's recommended as a good "go to" feat.



2- what are some good feats to consider (for now and future)?


Check out the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). Look for the Green/Gold stuff.

Could you be more specific about which sourcebooks are available? #1 feat to get on most sneak attack builds is Craven from Champions of Ruin, but it's a setting-specific book that's outside most of the common sourcebooks.

After Craven, next feat on my list is usually Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, most likely available at 9th level for you, as it has a BAB +6 prereq) or Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook), but the latter requires Combat Reflexes and Improved TWF first. If Craven isn't available for your 3rd level feat... Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) might be worth a look (once per day, 10 rounds of move + full attack).

[Curtisw2000]

I wish I could be more specific about the books. Like I said, originally it was just PHB. Then we lost the fighter and cleric... so recruited new player. He managed to talk the DM into letting him use a race from Races of the Wild. Since then we have also had people use Complete Adventurer and Compete Warrior. It has been pretty much a case by case basis. So want to have a plan before asking him about it.

[Darrin]

Ok, sounds like the DM would be more comfortable with PHB 1/2 + Completes + Races. Champions of Ruin might be a hard sell there, but it's worth asking about for Craven. #2 priority after Craven would be to ask about the Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape. At Rogue 3, this lets you trade Trap Sense +1 for the ability to get half your sneak attack damage against creatures that are normally immune to it. If it's not available, then you'll want to put some more thought into how you want to deal with undead and constructs.

If you're stuck with mostly Core, Rogue 19/Fighter 1 is still a pretty decent build. You don't really get much for taking the 20th level of Rogue, so you might as well dip Fighter. Rogue is a favored class for halflings, so you can take that Fighter 1 whenever you like.

You said your first problem was not being able to hit. Has Weapon Finesse fixed this? If not... then one of the most effective sneak attack strategies in Core is splash weapons (acid flasks, alchemical fire) because they rely on touch attacks to hit. But you need to take Quickdraw for it, and there are some downsides to relying on thrown weapon attacks (poor range, flanking difficulties, cost/time to prep ammo). That and some DMs get really bent out of shape over dealing sneak attack with splash weapons (so much so that Pathfinder explicitly banned it). Oh, and if you're switching to a ranged build... Weapon Finesse would be something of a wasted feat.

If Complete Warrior and Complete Scoundrel are available... ask your DM if you can swap that Fighter level with a level of Swashbuckler. You get the same feat, but a couple more skill points. You could then head towards a Daring Outlaw build: Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16. Or if you really want to squeeze the most feats into the build, this lets you save the Fighter dip until later, such as when you get BAB +6 and want to pick up Improved TWF earlier than 9th level.

[Curtisw2000]

Thanks so much for the input.

Couple of questions:
- For Craven, do you have to be an Evil character? The book (upon a quick skim) to be for Evil-ly aligned characters.
- What are the requirements to use a Domain Feat like Travel Devotion? I really like the idea of being able to do a full attack and still move.

How to deal with undead has been on my mind since the start... which was only further enhanced by the fact there is a big sealed crypt in our game's main town that I'm sure we're going to have to go investigate soon. So I've done some research on the topic. I am going to ask about Penetrating Strike ACF when I get closer to Level 4 (Rogue 3). But I appreciate the advice.

Staggering Strike seems very solid. Will most likely end up in my build once I get the BAB.

Daring Outlaw build is something I DO want to try, but not with this character. He's the strong silent type and I picture the Daring Outlaw as more..... outgoing.

I did also consider (for both this character and the future Outlaw) looking at the Luck Feats in Complete Scoundrel. Seems like a steap commitment (feat-wise) but might be fun to play with luck on your side

[jmax]

- For Craven, do you have to be an Evil character? The book (upon a quick skim) to be for Evil-ly aligned characters.


Craven does not require that your character be evil, although you should consider role-playing a coward. It's quite excellent, especially on a multi-class build as it gets your sneak attack much closer to the full power it would have had if you went straight rogue. On a full sneak attack build with two-weapon fighting, the extra damage adds up very quickly.

By rules as written, the extra damage is multiplied on a critical hit, so you'll get the most mileage out of a weapon with a large threat range. (A weapon with x3 or x4 crit multiplier is likely to be wasting much of the bonus except against boss monsters.)




How to deal with undead has been on my mind since the start... which was only further enhanced by the fact there is a big sealed crypt in our game's main town that I'm sure we're going to have to go investigate soon. So I've done some research on the topic. I am going to ask about Penetrating Strike ACF when I get closer to Level 4 (Rogue 3). But I appreciate the advice.


A wand of grave strike (Spell Compendium, p107) is 750 gp and will give you 50 rounds of sneak attacking undead. Note that you have to have the wand in hand already to activate it as a swift action.

[Venger]

in addition to all Darrin's helpful advice the rogue handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) does a decent job of covering the basics re: feats.

despite craven being from champions of ruin, there's nothing tying it to a specific setting, so that shouldn't be a factor for your gm.


A wand of grave strike (Spell Compendium, p107) is 750 gp and will give you 50 rounds of sneak attacking undead. Note that you have to have the wand in hand already to activate it as a swift action.

just use a wand chamber and you won't need to worry about it.

[Pugwampy]

Telling blow is a nice rogue feat .

Are you sure you want a rogue ? You are doing everything in your power to make him a fighter type .

Why not just make a fighter ?

[Curtisw2000]

Are you sure you want a rogue ? You are doing everything in your power to make him a fighter type .

Why not just make a fighter ?

How do you figure? Because I chose Weapon Finesse and TWF as my first couple of feats? As I understand it, the key to being a rogue in combat is to maximize your Sneak Attacks. Hence the TWF. Sneak Attacks don't help if you can't hit them... hence the Finesse.

Or is it because we've been talking primarily about melee feats? If you have a good suggestion for a great feat to help me with other aspects of being a rogue, I'd love to hear it. Most of them seem to read like "+2 bonus on Disable Device and Open Lock checks" ... I have been discounting those because as a rogue I get a lot of skill points per level, so those skills are always going to be maxed out (for my level) anyways.

In an answer to your question: Yes, I'm sure I want to be a rogue. Being the character who doesn't stand toe to toe bashing the enemy, instead relying on wits and skill to maneuver to do the most damage. Being the shadow that sneaks ahead and scouts the enemy position to help devise a cleaver battle strategy. Being the one who view locks and traps as not being an inconvenience. If I'm doing something wrong based on this discussion, please let me know.

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That being said, when we were character building our original party consisted of a paladin, fighter, cleric, and wizard. So rogue was a great addition in my mind, although I may have been biased because it was on the top of my list of characters I wanted to try. SINCE then, however... we've had a lot of people switch out. Now we have me (rogue), paladin, bard (who doesn't even own a weapon), ranger, druid, and two wizards. Our party is kind of lacking in the melee category, so maybe I've been trying to step up my melee to mitigate the gap.

[DEMON]

Daring Outlaw build is something I DO want to try, but not with this character. He's the strong silent type and I picture the Daring Outlaw as more..... outgoing.


Daring Outlaw is what you make it. I don't think there's anything in the character's fluff preventing him to be a silent type and even then you can roleplay the character however you like.

Darrin's mostly covered everything of note, so let me just add that if PHB 2 is on the table, there are some decent ACFs for both the Rogue and the Swashbuckler as are in the Drow of the Underdark.

Craven, Staggering Strike, Telling Blow, TWF, ITWF, Savvy Rogue are some feats of note. I also like Magical Training.

[bean illus]

To address your original question.

Since you asked about improved initiative, and mentioned that complete adventurer might be acceptable...

Quick Reconnoiter
Prereq. Listen 5 ranks, Spot 5 ranks

You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action. You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks.
Normal. Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively making a Spot/Listen checks requires a move action.
=============

Though i see few folks mention it, i love this little gem. Rogue still goes first almost every time, but in my opinion, a free listen and spot every round is pretty useful.

[Curtisw2000]

Though i see few folks mention it, i love this little gem. Rogue still goes first almost every time, but in my opinion, a free listen and spot every round is pretty useful.

How often do you need to make a spot or listen check in battle? I've never really done so (keeping in mind I'm level 2 with my first character ever).

[Venger]

How often do you need to make a spot or listen check in battle? I've never really done so (keeping in mind I'm level 2 with my first character ever).

When fighting invisible enemies, this is one of the quickest ways to mundanely pinpoint them. so fairly often at mid-high levels.

[DEMON]

How often do you need to make a spot or listen check in battle? I've never really done so (keeping in mind I'm level 2 with my first character ever).


When fighting invisible enemies, this is one of the quickest ways to mundanely pinpoint them. so fairly often at mid-high levels.

Plus it stacks with Improved Initiative (and Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter) to make sure you get to SA someone in the first round (even with ranged weapons).

[bean illus]

How often do you need to make a spot or listen check in battle? I've never really done so (keeping in mind I'm level 2 with my first character ever).


When fighting invisible enemies, this is one of the quickest ways to mundanely pinpoint them. so fairly often at mid-high levels.


Plus it stacks with Improved Initiative (and Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter) to make sure you get to SA someone in the first round (even with ranged weapons).

... and of course, knowing in advance does help win battles, and keeps your character alive.

[jmax]

... and of course, knowing in advance does help win battles, and keeps your character alive.

"I win initiative and you're a chair." - ???
(Sorry, I can't remember where I saw this. It may have been a D&Dmotivator.)

[Curtisw2000]

Thanks for the help everyone so far... I really appreciate it.

So talked with my DM last night after our game (ended the night just shy of level 3) and he basically said his new policy is: "Any rulebook written for 3.5, as long as you're following the rules, I'm ok with it." So..... yeah... if anyone was holding back of thought b/c it came from an odd rule book, feel free to mention it.

So let me kind of re-ask my question in a different way:

If YOU were playing a halfling character who had 2 levels of Rog and 1 level of Ftr... what would be the 3 feats YOU would have?

[Eladrinblade]

Sorry for long description but basically I have 2 questions:
1- should I drop Improved Initiative or keep it (taking TWF as 3rd feat)?
2- what are some good feats to consider (for now and future)?

Keep it.

1st level rogues should stick to throwing or projectile weapons, unless they have strength in which case they should probably use a longspear if they're gonna be in melee at all.

Improved Initiative is the general go-to 1st level rogue feat, but TWF isn't a bad choice for halfling rogues, because of the high bonuses they get with thrown weapons. Your character would have +6 with a thrown weapon at 1st level; two at +4 would still be good.

Taking the level of fighter is a bad idea, IMO, because you'll just be that much further behind on skills and class features.

1st three feats in whichever order you think is best: Imp Init, TWF, Weapon Finesse

After that, I'd get Improved TWF at 9th, Quick Draw or Shuriken Proficiency at 12th, and Greater TWF at 15th. Protip: a level of monk is probably the best 1-level multiclass dip a halfling rogue can take, mostly for shuriken proficiency and flurry of blows.

[bean illus]

Consider switching it with Quick Recon.
As has been pointed out, would you rather go first after being surprised? or go first after you surprise your opponents.


"I win initiative and you're a chair." - ???
(Sorry, I can't remember where I saw this. It may have been a D&Dmotivator.)

Absolute classic.