Legacy Champion / Mind Mage?

[schreier]

How would the "class feature" piece work?

I've seen some reference to epic progressions where theurge classes alternate progression, but that does not seem necessarily included in the legacy champion/uncanny trickster class feature copying.

Regardless though, the Mind Mage is not 1/1 every level.

There seem to be 4 "types" of class features in the class:

I. Ones that do not level and would not be copied:

Psionic Components - replace cheap components for pp
Compensation - pay for metamagic with pp and metapsionics with spell slots
Force Touch - deliver touch spells using powers
Focus of Discipline - Spend PP or Spell slots to low spell level or pp cost
Painful Premonition - add non-lethal damage and a save penalty to the regular damage if fail save


II. One that could level, but does not have a stated progression "formula"

Psionic Reinforcement - Increase save DC at levels 3 and 9


III. Ones that would almost certainly improve

Twin Wells Same Source - Add mind mage levels to both casting and manifesting level for 24 hours (the additional levels would increase the "Mind Mage" levels added to CL/ML)
Magical Reinforcement - 1/day per Mind Mage lvl, heighten power effect to increase by one level (just in the uses per day)


IV. The last one is the hardest to define ...

Manifesting/Spellcasting - Both are 8/10 (the first four levels alternate ML/CL) - I see 4 options:
[**]copy the pattern (alternate for the first four levels, then the next 6 levels are both)
[**]use the basic mystic theurge epic example (alternate ML/CL)
[**]continue the last 6 level pattern (give both ML and CL every level)
[**]no progression since the progression only hits certain levels


In the Epic level handbook, the potentially relevant text says:
"Generally speaking, any class feature that uses your class level as part of a mathematical formula, such as a paladin’s lay on hands ability, the Difficulty Class (DC) to resist a monk’s stunning fist attack, or a bard’s bardic knowledge check, continues to increase using your class level in the formula."

"Any prestige class feature that calculates a save DC using the class level (such as the assassin’s death attack) should add only half the character’s class levels above 10th."

"For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase after 20th level ... However, your spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat."

"Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern (such as a rogue’s sneak attack or the number of times per day a barbarian can rage) also continue to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate."

In the Epic Level Handbook 3.5 Update, they showed the Mystic Theurge alternating spellcasting levels, and gave it a bonus feat every 5 levels


The answers seem pretty clear I would think for all but the ML/CL. I would leave I & II alone (no progression). III should almost certainly improve. The CL/ML - I am tempted to alternate, as indicated with the Theurge entry (although without the bonus feat). Clearly, no one would take the class if it does not advance CL/ML at all ...

Thoughts?

[ATHATH]

Class Features: At each level except 1st and 7th, you gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. The specific class features you gain include spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abilities, sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending on the class. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class's Hit Dice, attack progression, skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

I. These WOULD be copied, and you would obtain them at the appropriate Mind Mage ELs.
II. Psionic Reinforcement will improve at Mind Mage ELs 3 and 9, but will not improve after those levels.
III. Yes, they would improve with an increased Mind Mage EL, even beyond EL 10.
IV. Since Mind Mage specifies what levels Manifesting and Spell Progression increase at (instead of saying something like "at all levels except for X, Y, and Z"), Manifesting and Spell Progression do not increase after you reach an EL of 10 in Mind Mage (they will increase as normal before and at EL 10, though).

[ATHATH]

I have a Mind Mage build skeleton for you, if you want one:

Athasian Human Wizard (choose a variant and pick up some ACFs if you want) 5/Ardent 1/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 3 (4 with LA buyoff)

Feats:
1: Dual-Plane Summons
Human Bonus Feat: Hidden Talent
3: Flash Freeze
6: Practiced Manifester
9+: Choose Whatever Looks Nice

You'll need LA buyoff to get Wizard 9ths, but your Ardent Manifesting should carry you anyway.

Athasian Human is from Dragon Magazine #319. They have LA +1 and get a 1st level power at 1st level, a 2nd level power at 5th, a 3rd level power at 10th, a 4th level power at 15th, and some extra PP at each of those levels. If they take levels in a Psionic class, their innate powers are instead added to that class's manifesting list... which might present an issue if your Psionic class can't manifest powers of the level of one or more of your innate abilities, hence the weird stuff with Hidden Talent and Practiced Manifester.

[schreier]

Class Features: At each level except 1st and 7th, you gain class features and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. The specific class features you gain include spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abilities, sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending on the class. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class's Hit Dice, attack progression, skill points, or saving throws. If you had more than one class before becoming a legacy champion, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

I. These WOULD be copied, and you would obtain them at the appropriate Mind Mage ELs.
II. Psionic Reinforcement will improve at Mind Mage ELs 3 and 9, but will not improve after those levels.
III. Yes, they would improve with an increased Mind Mage EL, even beyond EL 10.
IV. Since Mind Mage specifies what levels Manifesting and Spell Progression increase at (instead of saying something like "at all levels except for X, Y, and Z"), Manifesting and Spell Progression do not increase after you reach an EL of 10 in Mind Mage (they will increase as normal before and at EL 10, though).

True on 1 and 2 - although I was thinking Legacy champ after 10 (so 10 mind mage, then legacy champion) -- IV, that was my feat, but then that obviously means it is not worth taking past 10. Oh well

Thanks - and love the build

Out of curiousity - I'm still trying to figure out how the compensation and focus of discipline actually work on spells ... if you are a wizard, do you:

designate the metmagic when memorizing or casting?
pay the pp cost when memorizing or casting?



If you memorize with pp-fueled metamagic, but pay when actually casting - that would mean you can't cast unless you have those power points left

If you memorize with pp-fueled metamagic you pay then - that would mean you could spend "off-days" memorizing everything metamagic-ed up, then the next day be at full pp with all metamagic spells for free

If you apply the metamagic and pay the cost when casting - that lets you add metamagic on the fly ....

How do you work it?

[VisitingDaGulag]

1 No one thinks advances
2 would need your DM to RAI houserule (which I approve)
3 Advances
4 Look to the text. Most of them either fully advance or don't at all. Some do according to patterns

Anyways just meet the prereqs as soon as possible (there's a handbook for that) and then finish MM before going straight cerebromancer. LC is a waste casting boosts. It's mainly used to advance class features rather than casting progressions.