Living Grey hawk and its Eberron counterpart

[ALOR]

So i i've talked to a few people about Living Greyhawk. However i also wanted to get some more opinions on the games themselves.

1.Which is better Living Greyhawk or it's Eberron counterpart?
2. In your experiance, is a "Living" game more, less or the same amount as fun when compared to a more traditional campaign
3. Are the "living games" more combat geared?
4. Are thier alot of roleplaying opertunities?
5. How much "free will" do the dm's have during a game, meaning if the pc's do something outside what the adventure assumes they will do, how can they react to it? i've heard the DM's have thier hands tied
6. do all groups play the same adventures?

thanks all in advance.
:smallbiggrin:

[Citizen Joe]

Living campaigns are like continually updating campaign settings. In general, they don't radically change things, but they do provide a backdrop of events outside your character's influence. It is a bit like a MMORPG in that aspect, although you don't specifically interact with the other players.

[valadil]

1. Haven't played Eberron, so I can't comment.

2. *I* didn't have as much fun with it. Other players in my groups like it more. It's definitely worth a try. I think the real advantage of it is that it makes DMing less time consuming. Also, the modular nature of the adventures means you can switch out DMs fairly often.

3. More is a subjective term. They have their fair share of combat and other stuff. How much time you spend on the combat is up to your group.

4. There is roleplaying, but it's not as open ended as I'd like. It often feels like when you talk to people you have an objective and either you succeed or you fail. There are different paths the adventure can take depending on your success roleplaying. But each path has to be prewritten. Very few GMs will roll with whatever third option you came up with.

5. I've seen GMs change some combats around and no one complained, but I don't think they'd ever change plot structure. The games are flowcharts for all intents and purposes. Keeping this in mind, a well written game (of which there are plenty) doesn't necessarily feel like a flowchart.

6. All the same modules are available. Each character (I think it's char but it could be each player) can play a mod once. Characters are not required to do the mods in any particular order. If you go to a con and play there, any war stories you have will probably be shared by at least half the party members. Also, I think modules get rotated out of play after a certain amount of time. Two or three years maybe?

[Fixer]

6. All the same modules are available. Each character (I think it's char but it could be each player) can play a mod once. Characters are not required to do the mods in any particular order. If you go to a con and play there, any war stories you have will probably be shared by at least half the party members. Also, I think modules get rotated out of play after a certain amount of time. Two or three years maybe?

They get rotated out every three years.
A player can only play a mod once, regardless of which character it is. Playing a mod twice will result in the second time not being counted and you will get no credit for it and neither will your character.

[Keld Denar]

The Eberron living campaign "Mark of Heros" has been discontinued. It reached the completion of its story arc and I believe is no longer in play. Most people I talked to about it didn't like it, because of the lack of character investment in the system. Mark of Heros let you retool your character from the ground up in between each game. This was kind of a dumb idea. There are a couple other living campaigns, but not all of them have RPGA (and WotC) backing. Legend of the Shining Jewel, Living Blackmoor, and Living Kingdoms of Kalamar are the ones I can name off the top of my head.

Living Greyhawk has been around since 2000. Its predicessor, Living City, goes all the way back to 2nd ed at least. Living City was a Forgotten Realms setting living campaign that imploded on itself from which LG learned a lot of its lessons from.

One of the things that makes a living campaign work is the character record system. After every adventure (module), the player receives a certificate (AR) which discribes all of the gold/xp/favors/access earned in the mod. This ensures that there aren't any players running around with +5 vorpal swords "claiming" that it was given to them in a mod. A very dedicated and appreciated group of volunteers oversees writing, proofing, and playtesting each and every mod before publishing, and anyone can apply to write a mod (volunteers screen new writers to make sure mod plots fall within regional plot desires). The AR system is what makes LG feel most like an MMORPG, but is necessary thing when running an international campaign.

In my experience, Living Greyhawk does tend to be rather combat oriented. A typical LG mod has 3 combat encounters. There are roleplaying mods, some with optional only fights, and some with only 1 or so combats. These tend to be a bit of an exception, although remarkably fun when they are well written and well DMed. Most role/roll play ratios depend primarily on the DM, the players, and the amount of time alloted to the game.

One of the greatest strengths of LG is the regions. The entire world of Greyhawk was divided up and distributed amongst regions in the real world. Michigan, the region I started LG in, corresponds to the Kingdom of Furyondy, a predominantly lawful good country, wealthy, but sharing a border with the Bandit Kingdoms (occupied territory ruled by the archfiend demigod Iuz). The Bandit Kingdoms is the states of Texas and Oklahoma. I now living in Massachusetts, which combined with Conneticutt, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont, (and I think Maine) are the lands of Bissel. Bissel is having issues with the evil necromancer Evard, and also with bordering Ket. Ket is Ontario, Canada. There are also regions corresponding to many countries in Europe and Australia. Each region publishes 8-9 mods per year, plus 8-9 metaregionals (mods for bordering countries with similar plot arcs, for example: Iuz Border States is one, which incudes Furyondy and the Bandit Kingdoms and also boardering Veluna, Verbobonc, Highfolk, and the Shieldlands). There are also 20 core mods per year, which are open to all players everwhere. Players can only play mods in the region they are in, +metagregions they are in, +cores. For example, being in Mass, I can only play Bissel mods, Sheldomar Valley metaregion mods, and cores while physically sitting at a table in Mass. If I were to drive over the border to New York (Keoland) I could play Keoland mods, Sheldomar metaregionals mods, and cores. If I went home to Michigan, I could play Furyondy mods, Iuz metaregionals, and cores. Characters can be from any region they choose, but playing in your home region has many benefits, including aquiring influence with local people and joining local organizations.

For more info, go to the RPGA website and download the Living Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook. Otherwise, post some questions and I (and others) will answer to the best of our ability.

[Keld Denar]

They get rotated out every three years.
A player can only play a mod once, regardless of which character it is. Playing a mod twice will result in the second time not being counted and you will get no credit for it and neither will your character.

Actually, it's 2 years or less. The year it came out, and 1 full year after that. The campaign is currently in year 7, which means all year 6 and year 7 mods are legal for play. The exceptions to this are intro mods (1st level only mods, great for beginners/starting new characters) which phase in and out as more get written, and special mods (such as ones that appear at big shows such as Gencon, Origins, Winter Fantasy, etc) that are only available at the big shows.

A PLAYER can only play a mod once. If you DM a mod before you play it, you are also unable to play it (spoiler reasons). You may DM a mod as many times as you wish, so long as you keep finding new players to play it.

[Fixer]

I thought I saw 2005 mods out there last time I looked (last week)? I was looking to see what mods could be run.

*goes and looks again*

Crap. They are doing some kind of maintenance.

[ALOR]

The Eberron living campaign "Mark of Heros" has been discontinued. It reached the completion of its story arc and I believe is no longer in play. Most people I talked to about it didn't like it, because of the lack of character investment in the system. Mark of Heros let you retool your character from the ground up in between each game. This was kind of a dumb idea. There are a couple other living campaigns, but not all of them have RPGA (and WotC) backing. Legend of the Shining Jewel, Living Blackmoor, and Living Kingdoms of Kalamar are the ones I can name off the top of my head.
.
when i checked the RPGA website last night it had a download for "expedition to Xen'Drek" so i thought it was still ongoing

thanks everyone for thier input so far

[Keld Denar]

when i checked the RPGA website last night it had a download for "expedition to Xen'Drek" so i thought it was still ongoing

thanks everyone for thier input so far

Oh, I remember hearing about this now. I wasn't too keen on the Mark of Heros campaign because of the character mechanics I mentioned above, so I never got involved in it. I wonder if the Xen'Drek Expedtions will make that same mistake, or if they will adopt LGs system of character tracking.

[sakusha]

There are a couple other living campaigns, but not all of them have RPGA (and WotC) backing. Legend of the Shining Jewel, Living Blackmoor, and Living Kingdoms of Kalamar are the ones I can name off the top of my head.

It's not high fantasy, but Fellowship of the White Star will be a living-style campaign that spans 10 years. http://www.fellowshipwhitestar.com

There's also Witch Hunter, but it's a d10 system and I really prefer d20 (which FWS is :smallbiggrin: )

[Keld Denar]

I forgot about Living Force and Living Arcanis as well. Living Force is obviously a d20 Star Wars setting campaign. Living Arcanis is a high fantasy setting, similar to Greyhawk and FR. It uses some select psionic too, I believe. The main downside of the Arcanis system is it still uses some of the Living City loot distribution rules (certs) which is one of the things that many people believe was the downfall of the campaign.

Living Greyhawk has the largest amount of support (and therefore largest number of volunteers and writers) of all of the existing living campaigns. At most game conventions, LG takes up between 80 and 100% of the RPG niche. Even at major shows such as Gencon, Origins, etc, LG takes up a goodly portion of the events scheduled.

[horseboy]

So i i've talked to a few people about Living Greyhawk. However i also wanted to get some more opinions on the games themselves.

1.Which is better Living Greyhawk or it's Eberron counterpart?
My only experience with Eberron is in DDO, so I don't know.


2. In your experiance, is a "Living" game more, less or the same amount as fun when compared to a more traditional campaign
For d20, sure.


3. Are the "living games" more combat geared?
4. Are thier alot of roleplaying opertunities?
Well, given that my group finds the roleplaying opportunities less than satisfactory in a d20 game, I won't go into that too much. We mainly play it for going to conventions, that or helping Matt the Bloody playtest some stuff before he submits it. (No, we don't cert for that, we just simulate it.) Mainly I experience has been in the "precerting" of modules my friends need to do before conventions. We just drop the maps, run the combat fill out the certs then play something fun.


5. How much "free will" do the dm's have during a game, meaning if the pc's do something outside what the adventure assumes they will do, how can they react to it? i've heard the DM's have thier hands tied
The "free will" is chained to modules. Modules, modules and more modules. You can't have a good idea, build an adventure and "wing it" like I usually like to run a game. If you like modules, it's good.


6. do all groups play the same adventures?

Depends. As has been said, there are regional modules available. I don't think I've been certed on any of them.

One of the things that can get annoying is all the paperwork. While it's nice that the restrictions on play keep it from quickly spiraling into the land of Cheddar, my 9th level fighter's character sheet is 17 pages long.

[Keld Denar]

One of the things that can get annoying is all the paperwork. While it's nice that the restrictions on play keep it from quickly spiraling into the land of Cheddar, my 9th level fighter's character sheet is 17 pages long.

Um...How? My 11th level character has over 75 ARs, and thats not including special ARs for all my extra curses I've been collecting (collecting bad curses is almost a hobby in LG, complete with bragging rights, my high level fighter has 3.5 active curses of varying severity). How do you get to 9th level with only 17?

To address things about ARs furth, yes, you do get an AR (sometimes 2) after every mod. The easiest thing I've found is to get a folder or binder so that they stay together, and in a fair bit of order. Filling out an AR takes only a couple minutes when you've done them a few times, no more time than it takes to read all the fun stuff you've found access to.

Speaking of access, since year 2, LG has gotten away from "item certs." You no longer receive items directly from a mod anymore. Instead, all items are liquidated, and gold is split evenly up to the cap for your level. You then receive "access" to items you found, which you can then purchase or craft, if you are able. This is probably one of the most bemoaned things about LG, because it suspends disbelief that you actually sell all your loot, then buy it back. The main purpose of this system, however, is equality. At the end of mods, too often, people would fight over loot. People would actively try to get as much as they could, even if they couldn't use it, so that they could trade item certs to other people, or give them to their other characters. This way, usually everyone has an equal chance to buy everything, if they really want to. It also helps keep characters on par with wealth-by-level guidelines, which keeps encounters balanced. No fighter is disadvantaged because the cleric at the table won the roll for the +1 sword, and no wizard is mad because the rogue took the spellbook to give to his little brother who plays a wizard. In a campaign as large as LG is, it makes things much easier and much more fair, which generally leads to the enjoyment of many more people.

[horseboy]

Um...How? My 11th level character has over 75 ARs, and thats not including special ARs for all my extra curses I've been collecting (collecting bad curses is almost a hobby in LG, complete with bragging rights, my high level fighter has 3.5 active curses of varying severity). How do you get to 9th level with only 17?

I get asked this a lot on this forum. I don't have 17 ARs, I have 11. Three pages of character sheet (Heroforge), 1 master Item Logsheet, Three pages of AR Tracker (also Heroforge).
Certs:
VERIntro6-01: Paper Chase 900xp
VERIntro6-02: Forest for the Trees 900xp
CORS5-02: Mines of the Eye 1350xp
COR6-03: Rider of the Grave (APL 4) 675xp
ADP6-01: Fane of the Drow 2360xp
ADP6-03: Red Hand of Doom (pt1) 3570xp
ADP6-03: Red Hand of Doom (pt2) 5400xp
ADP6-03: Red Hand of Doom (pt3) 4572xp
ADP6-03: Red Hand of Doom (pt4) 3255xp
ADP6-03: Red Hand of Doom (pt5) 9780xp
ADP6-04: Fields of Ruin 3940xp

Final xp: 36702 Take a little over a year and a half (77 TUs I think)in campaign time.
I've got a clip board that the back opens up on that I leave mine in.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, adaptables. Published adventures comercially for-sale that, coupled with some slight LG errata, can be played as LG mods. RHoD was quite a combat grind I heard. I never got the opportunity to play it, and probably won't before it retires at the end of this year, due to the fact that the only character I have in the level range doesn't have enough TUs left to play it. When you move 1/2 way through the year, you have a lot of new regionals and metaregionals to catch up on :)

So far, the only adaptable I've played completely through is Barrow of the Forgotten King, which was very fun. I'm in the middle of Demonweb Pits on another character as well. Killing drow gives a pleasure that can't be likened to anything else.

Oh, one thing....I know Verbobonc is a crazy region and all, but how in the hell do they get away with giving out APL 6 xp for an intro mod? APL 2 should give 450, APL 4 is 675, and APL 6 is 900. And how on earth did you play the core special from origins (mines of the fathers eye) at APL 8 as your 3rd AR?

I'm not accusing you of anything, but wow....something doesn't look right there.

[skywalker]

My only experience with a living campaign was playing living blackmoor. I, for my part, hated all the book keeping and being accountable. I've enough trouble being accountable to MY dm, not to mention someone else. Being accountable is for work, D&D is a game that I play, IMO.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[horseboy]

Oh, one thing....I know Verbobonc is a crazy region and all, but how in the hell do they get away with giving out APL 6 xp for an intro mod? APL 2 should give 450, APL 4 is 675, and APL 6 is 900. And how on earth did you play the core special from origins (mines of the fathers eye) at APL 8 as your 3rd AR?

I'm not accusing you of anything, but wow....something doesn't look right there.

I don't know how Verbobonc gave so much XP, I'm the fighter, I just smash things. :smallwink: Mines can be played at AP2, 4, 6, or 8. I played it at AP4.

In some honesty, my DM decided I needed a high level character to be able to play with their "mains". So he did some snooping around, found the quickest way and we chained through the mods to level up some characters for those of us who didn't have a character already up, and made a set of "backups" for the established characters. As a result I didn't fiddle around like a normal LG player would have. (IE I got Power leveled by a DM needing to add a character to the main story line everybody's working on. A quandary in LG)