Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again [Archive]

5a Violista

2017-03-09, 06:19 PM

Here is what's really going to happen:

They'll leave the sword behind, denying Roy of his advantage against Durkon*.
Roy will have to use his talky-man powers to save or defeat Durkon*
They'll magically be teleported north to the portal.
The Order of the Stick and the paladins there will start to fight against Xykon and Redcloak.
Just in time, The Monster in the Darkness will use his reality-bending powers to summon Roy's sword, thus "using powers he never knew he had" in fulfillment of Rich's prophecy.
Roy will use his magnetic personality to summon the sword from the Monster in the Darkness's hands (or tentacles or psi-pseudopods or teeth or fins or whatever).
Roy will block Redcloak's attack that was about to hit them, knocking the magic spell back at Xykon.
Redcloak will reveal his Final Form.

*little mental asterisk

Zulwarn

2017-03-10, 02:35 AM

My guess is that Belkar is going to find and grab it before he meets back up with the rest of the order.

Metahuman1

2017-03-10, 03:36 AM

I wonder if there's any chance of Roy finding a couple of Tome of Battle in the ship or the Dwarf Homeland and using that to not NEED the damn sword anymore instead?

Kish

2017-03-10, 06:37 AM

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-03-10, 07:15 AM

I'm guessing we'll find out in short order exactly what Roy intends to do about this problem.

Metahuman1

2017-03-10, 07:38 AM

No. He told 4ed-Roy that the reason he isn't a warblade now is "Dad would never have paid for a PhD program"; it's not that he doesn't know the class exists. And on a Doylist level, the chances of Rich suddenly introducing "the protagonist is now not a fighter but something called a warblade that uses anime combat moves" when he's concerned about his comic being accessible to non-D&D players is nil.

That was running with the fighter college joke. At this stage in the game, retraining and/or Multyclassing wouldn't cost "Dad" anything.

As for D&D rules access, "ok, theres this other more powerful class then fighter called a Warblade. Think of it like a Delux fighter that get's to pick special attacks from a list."

That's it, that's like, 1-2 panels for that much. A page, 2 tops, and the audience is caught up on all his new stuff, at least as much as they know what V, Elan and Durkon can do with there classes and spells.

Hell, doing it would even make sense in character as he'd be sticking it to his dad. "There, I got the equivalent of a PHD program, on my own, and got better with purely extraordinary abilities. Wonder how your Scrying kept failing? IRON HEART SURGE!" Oh, and Anti-magic fielding Xykon to finish him was SOOOOOO worth it!

Throknor

2017-03-10, 10:38 AM

V has sufficient divination magic to quickly retrieve the sword; it could be performed off-panel (unless a giant picks it up)
This or H/V/B will find it just trying to catch up with where the airship went.

Tyrannosaurus

2017-03-10, 12:28 PM

Well, what other incentive would Roy have to learn 'summon ancestral weapon'?

Why learn "Summon ancestral weapon" when he could learn "Summon bigger fish"?

pendell

2017-03-10, 04:33 PM

Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

We are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again.

/thread

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Goblin_Priest

2017-03-10, 08:32 PM

V has sufficient divination magic to quickly retrieve the sword; it could be performed off-panel (unless a giant picks it up)

Yea, I'm kinda expecting V to effortlessly reclaim it, either off-panel or with very few, or otherwise for the foot soldiers like Belkar to just stumble upon it. ;)

Darth Paul

2017-03-10, 11:35 PM

We may have to deal with getting the sword back, but it may be done in such an offhand and effortless way that it will come as a pleasant surprise to you. Or not. Too soon to say.

V just might come zooming up with it and drop it into Roy's waiting hands two comics from now, just in time to spit the Giant like a doner kebab. That would be both dramatic and satisfying.

Haluesen

2017-03-10, 11:50 PM

Oh you hilarious literal people. :smalltongue:

It is within the realm of possibility that we may or may not have to spectate a series of events that will be focused on the retrieval of the Greenhilt sword once more.

Clever, very clever. :smallamused:

I wonder if there's any chance of Roy finding a couple of Tome of Battle in the ship or the Dwarf Homeland and using that to not NEED the damn sword anymore instead?

Why would that make him not need the sword anymore? As far as I remember ToB classes still use weapons to do their things, other than unarmed swordsage (and I don't really feel like Roy would take that particular path).

Yea, I'm kinda expecting V to effortlessly reclaim it, either off-panel or with very few, or otherwise for the foot soldiers like Belkar to just stumble upon it. ;)

I think it will either be V, or Roy recalling it to his hands with his new Legacy abilities. I hope it is the latter, that will be more dramatic and exciting. :smallbiggrin:

dtilque

2017-03-10, 11:52 PM

It fell into a cwm. YwkYwk will retrieve it.

An Enemy Spy

2017-03-10, 11:58 PM

The sword is lost forever. From now on Roy will be taking levels in Monk.

Kish

2017-03-11, 12:00 AM

Darth Paul

2017-03-11, 12:01 AM

From now on Roy will be taking levels in Monk.

He does have the traditional shaved head.... there might be something to what you say here.

AuthorGirl

2017-03-11, 12:56 AM

. . . is Elan still dangling off the bottom of the airship?

In a perfect position to catch, say, falling heirloom swords? :smallwink:

GreatWyrmGold

2017-03-11, 01:06 AM

We are n—

We are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again.
Godsdammit!

My guess is that Belkar is going to find and grab it before he meets back up with the rest of the order.
bonk
"Ow! What the hell hit—ooh, free sword."

. . . is Elan still dangling off the bottom of the airship?
In a perfect position to catch, say, falling heirloom swords? :smallwink:
"Ow! What the heck hit—ooh, Roy's gonna definitely be my friend now!"

That was running with the fighter college joke. At this stage in the game, retraining and/or Multyclassing wouldn't cost "Dad" anything.
As for D&D rules access, "ok, theres this other more powerful class then fighter called a Warblade. Think of it like a Delux fighter that get's to pick special attacks from a list."
That's it, that's like, 1-2 panels for that much. A page, 2 tops, and the audience is caught up on all his new stuff, at least as much as they know what V, Elan and Durkon can do with there classes and spells.
Hell, doing it would even make sense in character as he'd be sticking it to his dad. "There, I got the equivalent of a PHD program, on my own, and got better with purely extraordinary abilities. Wonder how your Scrying kept failing? IRON HEART SURGE!" Oh, and Anti-magic fielding Xykon to finish him was SOOOOOO worth it!
Roy multiclassing hasn't been remotely foreshadowed, nor would multiclassing into a ToB class make sense.
Look at the closest comparable example—Elan multiclassing into Dashing Swordsman. What did that give him that he didn't have before? An excuse to pun more often, I guess. It fit in perfectly with his character, and with the sorts of things he'd already been doing (e.g, poking things with rapiers and acting dramatic). On the other hand, what about warblade-ey-ness has Roy embodied? They both fight things better than normal people should be able to? Not to mention that Roy, who's derived some amount of pride from sticking to his own physical abilities like Grandpappy, would need some strong incentive to break away and learn some de facto magic...especially since it's a type of magic which would be entirely new to the comic's world.

Haluesen

2017-03-11, 01:19 AM

Warblades can switch their weapon-specific feats to other weapons.

Not that that would make, "Oh well, I lost my +5 undead-killing greatsword of legacy which my family was named after; easy come, easy go, I guess" a reaction Roy would ever, in a billion years, come close to having.

Oh right, they can do that! I don't play ToB often, so it didn't occur to me. :smallsmile: Thanks for the info.

And yeah, that would be pretty unlike Roy to be that casual about something so important to him. Maybe as a snarky sarcastic moment, maybe, but probably not. Especially not after that blow from the giantess.

dtilque

2017-03-11, 04:19 AM

. . . is Elan still dangling off the bottom of the airship?

No he is not. He climbed up one of the ropes and is now near the underside of the gas bag. He is higher than Roy, so cannot catch the sword.

mouser9169

2017-03-11, 04:29 AM

Roy multiclassing hasn't been remotely foreshadowed, nor would multiclassing into a ToB class make sense.

Well, I can see him multiclassing into some sort of Ancestral Weapon using class, but that will make him MORE reliant on his weapon, not less. On the plus side, he may finally invest in a lanyard.

Mandor

2017-03-11, 09:21 PM

They will be unable to find the sword. Ever. But due to the tight timeline to save the world, they will continue north to Durkula / Greg / whoever. Roy will be gimped the entire time, with just a wooden club and his Bag of Tricks pets.

But, at the critical moment in the confrontation with Durkula, he will be visited by a manifestation of his Grandfather, who will speak in a voice that sounds suspicously like Mel Brooks / Yoghurt, who will tell him "Forget the sword! The sword is bupkis! I found it in a Cracker Jack box!" and that the schwartz is in HIM. Roy will then envelop himself in green fire without the sword, and will reverse his grip on the wooden club, and stake Durkula with the handle (since that's the narrower, more stake-like end of it).

True Facts! :smallsmile:

ChillerInstinct

2017-03-11, 10:56 PM

dtilque

2017-03-12, 12:15 PM

Here's the most likely scenario (based on the fight between Roy and Durkula):

Roy is going to take a big beating from the Frost Giant. It'll almost kill him. But at the last minute, his desperation for his sword will activate the weapon return feature of his legacy sword and it'll pop back into his hand. He then uses the Power of Greenhilt to trash the giant and restore all his hitpoints. This will take two strips, three at the most.

This would have all been avoided if he'd just learned where the function menu is on the sword, but that wouldn't have been as dramatic.

Cazero

2017-03-12, 12:41 PM

Or Roy (finaly) remembers that he's pretty good at grappling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) and throw the giant overboard.

GrayDeath

2017-03-12, 03:44 PM

The sword is lost forever. From now on Roy will be taking levels in Monk.

You mean he`ll be Khelgar, but much later levelwise, ergo more sucky?

NOOOOOOO.........!

Gift Jeraff

2017-03-12, 05:34 PM

We are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again.

We are not going to have to deal with reading this post again. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517873-Please-tell-me-we-are-not-going-to-have-to-deal-with-getting-the-sword-back-again&p=21790399&viewfull=1#post21790399)

Rodin

2017-03-13, 03:10 AM

Maybe they are getting it confused with the two (three?) times Elan has broken his rapier?

GW

I was trying to think about this.

His first rapier gets broken when Belkar shatters it with his voice. He gets a replacement immediately.

He loses his second rapier when Nale steals it, gets a replacement from Julio, then gets the original back when he beats Nale.

He gets one of those two broken when Tarquin snaps it, but gets another replacement in the form of Julio's chaos sabre.

So he only broke it twice, but lost it 3 times.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-03-13, 08:57 PM

Well, I can see him multiclassing into some sort of Ancestral Weapon using class...
...Well, okay, I'll grant you that. Blanket statements are always bad; only Sith deal in absolutes.

Or Roy (finaly) remembers that he's pretty good at grappling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) and throw the giant overboard.
Grappling depends on size, strength, and base attack bonus. Xykon's size and base attack bonus are similar to Roy's at that time (if Roy was about 10th level, pure fighter, and Xykon a bit over 20th, pure sorcerer), and his strength is almost certainly lower. And there might be some circumstance bonuses involved. The frost giant's size is (of course) bigger, may have a higher Strength, and likely has comparable BAB.

hongkasong

2017-04-21, 04:34 PM

Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

FujinAkari

2017-04-21, 06:49 PM

We are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again.

Kish

2017-04-21, 07:17 PM

I would find it hilarious if this thread got merged with the other one with the same name.

Jay R

2017-04-21, 08:46 PM

We are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again. That's Roy's problem. We just have to read the comic.

denthor

2017-04-21, 08:54 PM

Jay R you are funny

Please look at the last comic Roy has a sword so he all ready got it back.

zimmerwald1915

2017-04-21, 09:35 PM

Prediction: the sword's going to be a breadcrumb on the trail that leads Haley, V, Blackwing, and Belkar back to the Mechane. Probably because Haley or Blackwing will Spot it; V probably wouldn't think to scry it, thinking it'll be warded by the Mechane's lead lining.

Kish

2017-04-22, 07:34 AM

Ah, I see. It wasn't a joke thread deliberately copying the title of a recent thread, it was a spam bot deliberately copying the title of a recent thread.

Jay R

2017-04-22, 08:15 AM

Jay R you are funny

Please look at the last comic Roy has a sword so he all ready got it back.

And if his name were Randomhilt, the issue would be over.

But his name is Greenhilt, named after his family's heirloom sword, so he needs to get the green-hilted heirloom sword back.

Emanick

2017-04-22, 12:02 PM

I would find it hilarious if this thread got merged with the other one with the same name.

Looks like you got your wish :smallsmile:

Kish

2017-04-22, 12:09 PM

I did. Alas, the humor value is blunted by the new one having been started by a spam bot rather than an actual person.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-04-22, 11:09 PM

I did. Alas, the humor value is blunted by the new one having been started by a spam bot rather than an actual person.
I disagree. The spambot's algorithms tried to figure out a reasonable way to fake being a human being on this forum well enough to get away with spamming, and this is what it thought of? That's hilarious!

Douglas

2017-04-23, 12:00 AM

I disagree. The spambot's algorithms tried to figure out a reasonable way to fake being a human being on this forum well enough to get away with spamming, and this is what it thought of? That's hilarious!
Maybe I'm just jaded by experience on this one. Copy and paste an existing post is a somewhat common way to try to fake human behavior as a spam bot.

Out of those that bother to try at all, anyway - most just post blatant batches of links and ungrammatical descriptions of products. I don't really count "pretend I'm answering a question about this stuff" as trying to fake human.

Jay R

2017-04-23, 09:31 AM

I don't really count "pretend I'm answering a question about this stuff" as trying to fake human.

"Pretend I'm answering a question about this stuff" is what most people are doing here.

They will be unable to find the sword. Ever. But due to the tight timeline to save the world, they will continue north to Durkula / Greg / whoever. Roy will be gimped the entire time, with just a wooden club and his Bag of Tricks pets.

But, at the critical moment in the confrontation with Durkula, he will be visited by a manifestation of his Grandfather, who will speak in a voice that sounds suspicously like Mel Brooks / Yoghurt, who will tell him "Forget the sword! The sword is bupkis! I found it in a Cracker Jack box!" and that the schwartz is in HIM. Roy will then envelop himself in green fire without the sword, and will reverse his grip on the wooden club, and stake Durkula with the handle (since that's the narrower, more stake-like end of it).

True Facts! :smallsmile:

But what about the doily? And does Elan get a whistle?

137beth

2017-04-23, 10:06 AM

This or H/V/B will find it just trying to catch up with where the airship went.

And then we'll have to deal with people shouting "Dues Ex Machina!"

Kish

2017-04-23, 10:13 AM

"Dues Ex Machina!"
Money from a machine? An ATM?

Cazero

2017-04-23, 11:07 AM

Money from a machine? An ATM?
It's more money [made as such] by a machine, so bitcoins.

Mad Humanist

2017-04-23, 02:32 PM

I did. Alas, the humor value is blunted by the new one having been started by a spam bot rather than an actual person.

So there is place (https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditSimulator/) on reddit where only bots are allowed to post. Sometimes it's funny and/or accurate.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-04-24, 05:49 PM

So there is place (https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditSimulator/) on reddit where only bots are allowed to post. Sometimes it's funny and/or accurate.
Oh man, I forgot that existed!

Breaking Bad came out first and they don't talk about WWII because it wasn't Snape's wand, even though he didn't shed his furby form yet.

I want to see an alternate universe where that sentence makes sense.

YummyPizza

2017-04-25, 06:11 PM

It won't be hard for V, Haley, or Belkar to find it on their way back to Roy and Elan. Just look for the big impact crater a few mountains before the Mechane ran aground. It'll take all of a strip with Bugsby's Sword-Retrieving Hand.

Ah but the spell is Bugsby's CAT-Retrieving Hand. So V would need to Polymorph Any Object the sword into a cat first, and THEN retrieve it.

Darth Paul

2017-04-26, 07:13 AM

Ah but the spell is Bugsby's CAT-Retrieving Hand. So V would need to Polymorph Any Object the sword into a cat first, and THEN retrieve it.

If we've seen anything, it's that V has a Bugsby's Hand spell for anything. I'm only surprised that we haven't seen them whip out Bugsby's Back-Scratching Hand in a quiet moment.

prufock

2017-04-26, 07:31 AM

I have a feeling it's going to be one of those "The power was in you all along!" plotlines, where he learns to access the disruption power without the sword.

martianmister

2017-04-26, 07:38 AM

If we've seen anything, it's that V has a Bugsby's Hand spell for anything. I'm only surprised that we haven't seen them whip out Bugsby's Back-Scratching Hand in a quiet moment.

Bugsby's Washing Hand
Bugsby's Tickling Hand
Bugsby's Fingering Hand

Possibilities are limitless!

Throknor

2017-04-26, 10:29 AM

I have a feeling it's going to be one of those "The power was in you all along!" plotlines, where he learns to access the disruption power without the sword.

That would kind of nullify the whole "Here's a book about your Weapon of Legacy!" deal so I wouldn't put money on it. Not to mention that would basically make him a sorcerer of sorts depending on magic instead of strength.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-04-26, 10:42 AM

Bugsby's Washing Hand
Bugsby's Tickling Hand
Bugsby's Fingering Hand

Possibilities are limitless!

My favorite is still Bugsby's Expressive Digit.

Ruck

2017-04-26, 12:33 PM

GreatWyrmGold

2017-04-28, 08:17 AM

Bugsby's Hand can definitely be used to retrieve swords. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0932.html)
And also swordsmen. Though that was being used to retrieve a cat indirectly...

JbeJ275

2017-06-10, 06:31 AM

...Well, okay, I'll grant you that. Blanket statements are always bad; only Sith deal in absolutes.

But that itself is an absolute.

Marlowe

2017-06-10, 07:00 AM

Sith absolutes go up to eleven.

Aasimar

2017-06-10, 10:34 AM

Christopher K.

2017-06-10, 01:13 PM

We won't.

There are three possibilities, each of which will be resolved in one strip, unless the problem of the sword is maybe discussed as a secondary problem in one strip and then solved in another.

1) Roy worries about the sword and realizes he can summon it to him.
2) Varsuviuus or Haley returns and bring the sword with them.
3) Varsuviuus or another spellcaster uses a spell to retrieve it.
4) Belkar finally gets his opportunity to lord it over Roy when he hops back on board and goes "maybe we need to get you a training weapon or something you won't lose until you've proven responsible enough to handle this"

Peelee

2017-06-10, 01:28 PM

4) Belkar finally gets his opportunity to lord it over Roy when he hops back on board and goes "maybe we need to get you a training weapon or something you won't lose until you've proven responsible enough to handle this"

That's not "how the sword may be retrieved." That's "how a character might act after the sword has been retrieved."

Kish

2017-06-10, 02:56 PM

I thought the implication was that Belkar would be handing Roy's sword back to him, with a condescending smirk.

dmc91356

2017-06-10, 03:17 PM

That's how I read it (proposed number 4) as well.

Peelee

2017-06-10, 03:40 PM

V's carrying Belkar. It's not impossible, but I'd find it odd that V would carry Belkar carrying the sword, rather than simply Haley getting the sword or V using a Hand spell.

Vinyadan

2017-06-10, 05:33 PM

So there is place (https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditSimulator/) on reddit where only bots are allowed to post. Sometimes it's funny and/or accurate.

This from one of them:
"As a gay guy, I'm so glad it came out sooner than that. It's funny because I own a gun to someone's head and telling them to do that"*. Looooooootta women here."

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-10, 06:18 PM

But that itself is an absolute.
That's the joke.

Porthos

2017-06-10, 07:05 PM

That's the joke.

And one that was almost certainly intentional on Lucas' part given his further highlighting at how flawed the Jedi of the PT era were in The Clone Wars.

Kish

2017-06-10, 08:12 PM

Really? That's a more charitable reading of Lucas in general and the presentation of the Jedi in the prequel movies in particular than I ever saw before.

Porthos

2017-06-10, 09:27 PM

Really? That's a more charitable reading of Lucas in general and the presentation of the Jedi in the prequel movies in particular than I ever saw before.

Lucas isn't nearly given enough credit for his ability to weave subtext, IMO. More to the point the whole sub-current of the Jedi being wrong on some level by leading the troops in the clone wars is examined more than once in both the Lucas helmed TCW cartoon series and the Dave Filoni made Rebels (I only mention Rebels because Filoni worked with Lucas for a long time and plumbed his brain on just what was going on in the prequel era, and perhaps more than anyone besides Lucas himself knows his thoughts on the era).

After all, Yoda had to get to the "wars not make one great" place somehow.

===

As an aside, with the fullness of time, and as Lucas backed projects like TCW have had time to digest, there's been something of a re-examination of Lucas' work of the prequels, I think.

Don't get me wrong, they're still flawed (mostly in choice of actors and some dialogue). But there's been more of an appreciation of just what he was trying to say in his story. From the deconstruction of the myth of The Chosen One to the perils of losing sight of the bigger spiritual picture when one decides to muck about with day to day politics.

To put it another way, I don't think it was a coincidence at all that some of the Jedi Masters were, to put not too fine a point on it, jerks. Or that they were presented as cold and uncaring in many ways to Anakin. At the same time, it's also not a coincidence that Anakin was presented as fundamentally flawed on some level and that he wasn't able to overcome his own demons.

Sure, again, Lucas' scripts could have used more polish (Carrie Fisher could only do so much, it would seem). But I do think he does need to be given a hell of a lot more credit than some give him for (including the much derided sand speech, which is in a way brilliant, as is the highly dysfunctional relationship Anakin has with Padme).

Jasdoif

2017-06-10, 09:46 PM

More to the point the whole sub-current of the Jedi being wrong on some level by leading the troops in the clone wars is examined more than once in both the Lucas helmed TCW cartoon series and the Dave Filoni made Rebels (I only mention Rebels because Filoni worked with Lucas for a long time and plumbed his brain on just what was going on in the prequel era, and perhaps more than anyone besides Lucas himself knows his thoughts on the era).Dave Filoni was the supervising director on The Clone Wars. Personally, I'm convinced that Lucas not being as directly involved is a big factor on why it ended up significantly better than any of the prequel movies he directed and screenplayed (even though Revenge of the Sith and, to a lesser degree, Phantom Menace certainly don't deserve the full amount of scorn heaped on them).

Porthos

2017-06-10, 10:06 PM

Dave Filoni was the supervising director on The Clone Wars. Personally, I'm convinced that Lucas not being as directly involved is a big factor on why it ended up significantly better than any of the prequel movies he directed and screenplayed (even though Revenge of the Sith and, to a lesser degree, Phantom Menace certainly don't deserve the full amount of scorn heaped on them).

Yes, I know he was. However, each and every episode was personally approved by Lucas and Lucas was deep in development with all of them (from what I understand, at least). And many of the beloved concepts of TCW (Ahsoka, Mortis, the return of Darth Maul to name three) came directly from Lucas.

Lucas has his faults. He's can have trouble getting most out of his actors when he is directing, for one. His scripts can be hit or miss. He can take too many shortcuts in storytelling. At the same time, he has many strengths, and crafting subtext is one of them. At least, IMO.

Where the prequels failed is mostly* in the casting of a couple of characters. If three characters had different actors (Jar-Jar and both Anakins), I tend to think the prequels would be MUCH better received than they were.

* Mostly. There's more problems than just casting, but that's Issues #1, #2, and #3.

That is, of course, still on Lucas. But it does go to show how fickle these things can be. Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid and Liam Neeson are lauded for their work in the prequels. Yet they read the same quality of lines that Jake Lloyd, Ahmed Best, and Hayden Christensen did for theirs. That alone makes me think that if there was better casting there (or people more suited to Lucas' style of directing), the prequels would have been better received.

Naturally, as you point out, they probably would have been even better with other directors with Lucas as (a very hands on) Producer. But it's not like he didn't try on that front before saying "Screw it, I'll do it myself" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star-wars-episode-i--the-phantom-menace/steven-spielberg-ron-howard-turned-down-prequels/).

Peelee

2017-06-10, 10:33 PM

Porthos

2017-06-10, 10:52 PM

I don't know what group this is, but the bit is pretty on the ball.

http://i.imgur.com/eEe9HEC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xyBtXuY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ipv3tIR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KvaFJCU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/I8abNhB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fPkP1Jp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5xPJk20.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hTvjDko.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Wh1duCu.jpg
]http://i.imgur.com/zBPrx9P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xRtcIu5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KYgD0so.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6xLAVw6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/520FGd1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2jYM8BS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/A7lVL5e.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X4MXaHv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/de4xoYu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Maw7sgH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7JPEeUk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PaYDCDU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9DDPk0J.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/59qLR6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rKIV1Ye.jpg

"You were cooler as a mystery".

Yeah. Maaaaaybe an intentional point. :smallwink:

(Vader really SHOULDN'T be cool [or at least as cool as he is made out to be], BTW - but that's a whole nudder point and probably a 12 page discussion I don't particularly want to get involved in right now :smalltongue:)

EDIT BEFORE THE REPLIES START.

Let me amend that parenthetical somewhat. I get why Vader is 'cool'. But I also think it absolutely needs to be highlighted that Vader is one ****ed up dude, psychologically. What the prequels do is show HOW he got so messed up in the head and how that inevitably turned him into Vader. Where they fall down on that score a bit is in some of the execution of that and the connective tissue, though a lot of it is very very well done.

Jasdoif

2017-06-10, 11:08 PM

Yes, I know he was. However, each and every episode was personally approved by Lucas and Lucas was deep in development with all of them (from what I understand, at least). And many of the beloved concepts of TCW (Ahsoka, Mortis, the return of Darth Maul to name three) came directly from Lucas.First, Mortis is the worst arc of the entire series :smalltongue:

Second, Lucas said what he wanted to happen and the people who actually did the work made it happen. Saying Lucas "helmed" The Clone Wars is roughly equivalent to saying Shojo "helmed" the Order of the Stick: It may be accurate in some sense, but saying it that way obscures the people who really managed to make it work.

Where the prequels failed is mostly* in the casting of a couple of characters.What caused the prequel movies to suffer is primarily that Lucas wrote the movies to play to his strengths, with significant sections that didn't play to his strengths; and then directed them to focus on the former...to the detriment of the latter. Which, of course, still drags down the movie as a whole when key parts of it aren't done well.

Lucas is very good with adventure-story-type arcs. Comedy/Romance arcs...not so much.

Porthos

2017-06-10, 11:22 PM

First, Mortis is the worst arc of the entire series :smalltongue:.

In all honesty, I am more than a little unimpressed with the Mortis arc myself. I only first saw TCW starting last year and binged all six seasons within the span of a couple of months. I only bring that point up to say that for a very long time I had heard the hype about that arc. Was really looking forward to it, tbh. Let's just say that I don't agree with the hype and leave it at that. :smalltongue:

That being said, our personal opinions aside, I think it is safe to say that within the SW community at large it is very highly regarded. Even if we aren't as impressed with it. :smallwink:

Second, Lucas said what he wanted to happen and the people who actually did the work made it happen. Saying Lucas "helmed" The Clone Wars is roughly equivalent to saying Shojo "helmed" the Order of the Stick: It may be accurate in some sense, but saying it that way obscures the people who really managed to make it work.

He was in the writers room for each and every episode, no? He wrote some of the scripts himself. I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).

Lucas is very good with adventure-story-type arcs. Comedy/Romance arcs...not so much.

At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.

And even so, upon reflection I was a HELL of a lot more impressed with the Anakin/Padme plot in the prequels when I finally re-watched them for the first time in a decade just before TFA came out. Mostly because I felt the stalker-ish Anakin and the naive politician Padme who is almost just as emotionally stunted as Anakin worked. Because they were two highly flawed characters who were embarking on a dysfunctional relationship that could only ever end in tears.

I have my complaints about how Hayden acted in the prequels, but upon reflection his scenes with Padme weren't one of them. Which surprised me, tbh, as I expected to dislike them.

===

Not that much of this has much to do with the thread topic OR whether or not Lucas was deft enough to realize what he was typing when he wrote his "Sith deal in absolutes" line. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

Kish

2017-06-10, 11:33 PM

I'd also like to say that it's entirely possible to observe that some of the qualities panned in the prequels are also present in the original trilogy (Lucas thinking whiny, maladroit, but still aligned-with-good characters who exist solely to fall over their own feet while shrieking about it are the height of humor, i.e., Jar-Jar Binks and C-3PO), and think, not better of the prequels as a result, but worse of the original trilogy.

(For the original assertion, just in case I was less than clear, I'm going to spell it out: I do not believe there is any intentional subtext pointing to the Jedi being significantly morally flawed in the prequels. I do not believe Lucas believed they were such. I don't believe he saw anything wrong with Yoda's "accept that your loved one will be gone and don't mourn them" advice to Anakin. Given that he did explicitly say that the prophecy did in fact speak of the destruction of the Sith and that Anakin/Vader accomplished it by killing the Emperor, I also don't believe he thought the Jedi were wrong to be invested in Anakin as the Chosen One; I believe he genuinely meant for Anakin's sudden embrace of murdering children to be a further and inevitable step along the same path he started down by not wiping love from his heart, and accordingly the fault for Anakin's fall was entirely his own--not because of anything he did that I would agree was actually wrong, but because he didn't turn himself into an emotionless automaton like every Jedi in the prequel movies who didn't fall. That he established, with Obi-Wan walking away from Anakin and leaving him alive and suffering after he was mutilated and badly burned by the lava, that a Jedi could do something that was both incredibly sadistic and suicidally stupid without it being a sign of the dark side as long as he didn't raise his voice while doing it, was an unnecessary and entirely over-the-top touch to establish the prequel movies' lack of moral weight.)

Peelee

2017-06-10, 11:35 PM

In all honesty, I am more than a little unimpressed with the Mortis arc myself. I only first saw TCW starting last year and binged all six seasons within the span of a couple of months. I only bring that point up to say that for a very long time I had heard the hype about that arc. Was really looking forward to it, tbh. Let's just say that I don't agree with the hype and leave it at that. :smalltongue:

That being said, our personal opinions aside, I think it is safe to say that within the SW community at large it is very highly regarded. Even if we aren't as impressed with it. :smallwink:

He was in the writers room for each and every episode, no? He wrote some of the scripts himself. I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).

At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.

And even so, upon reflection I was a HELL of a lot more impressed with the Anakin/Padme plot in the prequels when I finally re-watched them for the first time in a decade just before TFA came out. Mostly because I felt the stalker-ish Anakin and the naive politician Padme who is almost just as emotionally stunted as Anakin worked. Because they were two highly flawed characters who were embarking on a dysfunctional relationship that could only ever end in tears.

I have my complaints about how Hayden acted in the prequels, but upon reflection his scenes with Padme weren't one of them. Which surprised me, tbh, as I expected to dislike them.

The best acting can't save the worst writing.

Not to say that the prequels have the worst writing, but there were badly written with nonsensical events.

Porthos

2017-06-10, 11:46 PM

I'm going to spell it out: I do not believe there is any intentional subtext pointing to the Jedi being significantly morally flawed in the prequels. I do not believe Lucas believed they were such.

Well, fundamentally disagree here. I think the argument could have been made quite well if The Clone Wars had never been made. But with Lucas' further thoughts on the matter distilled in that series (even if though other people), I think it gives heavy weight to the idea that yes indeed the Jedi were flawed in the prequel era and their own actions led in part to their destruction.

As for the prophecy? Well, it's hardly a subtextual analysis to remind that subversions of prophecy and them not turning out quite like the people thought they were going to (understatement) have a long and glorious history in storytelling.

And if you don't believe me on this point, if the Jedi hadn't been so wrapped up in The Chosen One guff and if Anakin didn't let it go to his head, then things probably wouldn't have turned out as bad as they did. That blindly following the prophecy led to decades of suffering and grief, only to finally culminate in something good? Well, hardly the first time we've seen prophecy used in such matter; won't be the last.

EDIT TO NOT DOUBLE POST

The best acting can't save the worst writing.

Not to say that the prequels have the worst writing, but there were badly written with nonsensical events.

Ugh. Any time the prequels get mentioned on the internet the discussion just keeps going on and on and on. ANY TIME.... :smalltongue:

*gathers self*
*realizes he's just as much part of the problem* :smallredface:
*decides to plow into the breech one more time anyway*

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.

Let me flip this around a bit. Take Empire Strikes Back. When I did my re-watch of all six movies just before TFA came out, I was struck by how much of an utter creep Han Solo is in the film at times. I then thought what would have happened if we had a pair of different actors without the undeniable talent or chemistry of Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford.

Let's just say that I don't think ESB would be quite the beloved classic that many think it is if there were different actors there. :smallsmile:

Jasdoif

2017-06-10, 11:53 PM

I think pegging him at the Producer level more or less works. Around the same level of involvement as ESB and ROTJ (and the Indiana Jones movies, for that matter).Ah....I wouldn't use "helm" to describe a Producer role, maybe that's why I've been disagreeing with you :smalltongue:

At the risk of turning this into one of those dreaded 12 page discussions.... I think better casting would have sold those arcs in the prequels a hell of a lot better.It certainly could have; but better casting with the same writing sequence would only go so far. A better treatment in the writing for Jar-Jar and Anakin (like, say, that in The Clone Wars) might've done a far better job of informing the actors even with the same cast.

Not that much of this has much to do with the thread topic OR whether or not Lucas was deft enough to realize what he was typing when he wrote his "Sith deal in absolutes" line. :smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:To be entirely fair, the extent to which losing a lightsaber happens to symbolize the current state of conflict could possibly parallel Roy losing his sword in a moment of over-reliance. Possibly. It sounds good, anyway....

Kish

2017-06-11, 12:02 AM

Porthos

2017-06-11, 12:18 AM

Again, you're taking for granted intentions that I don't believe were there. Unless you can quote George Lucas saying "the Jedi were supposed to be mistaken to think the prophecy was important," yes, we do fundamentally disagree on, I suspect, nearly everything about the movies."

How about text directly from one of the movies?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.
Yoda: A prophecy that misread could have been.

But if that isn't good enough for you, well, I may have a large amount of SW knowledge crammed in my head, but not every single interview or commentary. So I can't help you with your specific question at the moment. :smallsmile:

That being said, it is undeniable that Lucas himself has said that Anakin was the Chosen One. That doesn't mean Lucas thinks that the Jedi acted in the right way. Prophecies tend not to care about that sort of thing. "A great empire will fall" for instance.

...

Or some of the prophecies in this Order of the Stick comic, for that matter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

THERE!!!! Got it back to OotS. Finally. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif

2017-06-11, 01:15 AM

How about text directly from one of the movies?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.
Yoda: A prophecy that misread could have been.That sounds suspiciously like the opposite of the Jedi thinking the prophecy was important.

Kish

2017-06-11, 08:23 AM

That doesn't mean Lucas thinks that the Jedi acted in the right way.
It also doesn't mean he thinks they acted in the wrong way. You're not offering any actual evidence that he does, just repetitions that there's no proof he doesn't. The way he has the Jedi act in the prequels is plenty horrifying to me, but I see no authorial condemnation in it. Anakin's fall is presented as the result of his not suppressing his emotions, most prominently love; there is not a single syllable of dialogue anywhere in any of the movies where any character says "the Jedi mishandled Anakin," unless one counts the Phantom Menace argument over whether they should accept someone so old for training (and that hinges on the idea that there's absolutely nothing wrong or creepy about the Jedi taking extremely small children away from their families). Presuming that our moral condemnation of the Jedi is equivalent to Lucas' moral condemnation of the Jedi is effectively begging the question: the prequel movies aren't as horrible as they appear because that would make them horrible.

The fan-interpretation of the prophecy as meaning to equalize the numbers of the Jedi and Sith is explicitly contrary to Lucas' stated intention, which is that Anakin was indeed going to destroy the Sith, whatever detours he took to get there. In other words: He's never written anything to support fans (apparently like you) who want to impose a decent story in place of the movies, but he has occasionally taken the time to personally thwart their efforts and reassert the awful story that went up on screen. The only argument I see that the Jedi somehow overweighted the prophecy is that they should not have accepted Anakin for training to begin with--which, as I allude to in my prior paragraph, looks to me like "they should have stuck more strictly to one of the qualities that make them horrible to Kish's eyes."

(Sorry I can't really play off the reference to OotS; I wouldn't try to draw conclusions about the Star Wars prequel movies from OotS specifically because of the difference in the amount of George Lucas' writing and directing in each of them.)

Porthos

2017-06-11, 01:22 PM

It also doesn't mean he thinks they acted in the wrong way. You're not offering any actual evidence that he does, just repetitions that there's no proof he doesn't. The way he has the Jedi act in the prequels is plenty horrifying to me, but I see no authorial condemnation in it. Anakin's fall is presented as the result of his not suppressing his emotions, most prominently love; there is not a single syllable of dialogue anywhere in any of the movies where any character says "the Jedi mishandled Anakin," unless one counts the Phantom Menace argument over whether they should accept someone so old for training (and that hinges on the idea that there's absolutely nothing wrong or creepy about the Jedi taking extremely small children away from their families). Presuming that our moral condemnation of the Jedi is equivalent to Lucas' moral condemnation of the Jedi is effectively begging the question: the prequel movies aren't as horrible as they appear because that would make them horrible.

The fan-interpretation of the prophecy as meaning to equalize the numbers of the Jedi and Sith is explicitly contrary to Lucas' stated intention, which is that Anakin was indeed going to destroy the Sith, whatever detours he took to get there. In other words: He's never written anything to support fans (apparently like you) who want to impose a decent story in place of the movies, but he has occasionally taken the time to personally thwart their efforts and reassert the awful story that went up on screen. The only argument I see that the Jedi somehow overweighted the prophecy is that they should not have accepted Anakin for training to begin with--which, as I allude to in my prior paragraph, looks to me like "they should have stuck more strictly to one of the qualities that make them horrible to Kish's eyes."

(Sorry I can't really play off the reference to OotS; I wouldn't try to draw conclusions about the Star Wars prequel movies from OotS specifically because of the difference in the amount of George Lucas' writing and directing in each of them.)

As a quick aside, I'm not in the camp that suggests that the prophecy wanted to bring balance to the Force by putting the Sith and Jedi to equal numbers (I think that's garbage, personally).

The thing is, a lot of my reading of the prequels is indeed informed by secondary and tertiary sources (TCW and Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo musings among a couple). But not all of it. A decent amount of it was when I watched all three back to back and saw a few patterns I hadn't seen before.

Do I have a direct quote from Lucas on whether or not the Jedi shouldn't have relied on the prophecy the way they did? Nope. Fully admit it. Doesn't mean it's not out there; just that I don't have it on hand. But, then again, relying on Lucas on anything SW might be an exercise in madness since he is famous for changing his mind every few years. Might, I emphasize before too much is drawn from my quip.

There's a lot more here I could address in your post, as you've brought up a lot of points that I think are arguable (though I see exactly where you're coming from on them). But this really has gotten widely off topic and I'm really trying to extract myself from it. So just have to leave those comments (and any further defense of the prequels) for perhaps another day. :smallsmile:

Jasdoif

2017-06-11, 04:20 PM

The thing is, a lot of my reading of the prequels is indeed informed by secondary and tertiary sources (TCW and Dave Filoni and Pablo Hidalgo musings among a couple). But not all of it. A decent amount of it was when I watched all three back to back and saw a few patterns I hadn't seen before.

Do I have a direct quote from Lucas on whether or not the Jedi shouldn't have relied on the prophecy the way they did? Nope. Fully admit it. Doesn't mean it's not out there; just that I don't have it on hand. But, then again, relying on Lucas on anything SW might be an exercise in madness since he is famous for changing his mind every few years. Might, I emphasize before too much is drawn from my quip.I, too, saw patterns showing how the Jedi were complacent in their ways and self-assured of their own righteousness when I watched Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith after having seen The Clone Wars series.

Of course, that's because the relevant portions in the movies are so scattered and standalone that's it very easy to come up with about any sort of explanation for why, as you put it, the Jedi are jerks. "The Jedi put too much emphasis on the prophecy" and "the Jedi put too little emphasis on the prophecy" are both reasonably well supported by the prequel movies, as are "the Jedi are blind to their own self-righteousness" and "the Jedi have a problem with Anakin in particular, as necessary to account for Anakin's actions". Personally, I don't think leaving something ambiguous enough for someone else to portray a compelling way of looking at it...speaks well of Lucas' ability to "weave subtext".

It's much like your comment about how it needed to be shown how badly Anakin was messed up. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith did not show how Anakin was messed up, nearly so much as they showed that Anakin was messed up. Setting Attack of the Clones at the very beginning of the clone wars, and Revenge of the Sith at the very end, did an excellent job of ignoring the intermediate years (ie the clone wars) that would have dramatically showcased and shaped Anakin's post-childhood development; and putting the development of the galaxy around Anakin at the forefront over the development of Anakin in what was ostensibly the story of Anakin. I don't think it's a coincidence that The Clone Wars is explicitly set during that period and manages to do approximately everything better than the two movies, even with its several subpar episodes.

And...well like you said, Lucas isn't exactly known for consistency; I'm not particularly inclined to give the guy who retcons his cameo character's species (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baron_Papanoida#Behind_the_scenes) much benefit of the doubt when it comes to planning things in advance.

JbeJ275

2017-06-11, 04:35 PM

Ruck

2017-06-11, 06:32 PM

Peelee

2017-06-11, 06:51 PM

You know what I like? Weird Al Yankovic's "The Saga Begins." It's a parody of "American Pie" that tells the story of The Phantom Menace in eight minutes, and it's better than both "American Pie" and The Phantom Menace.

I got to dance on stage at a Weird Al concert to that song once.

Darth Paul

2017-06-12, 12:20 AM

From the very same play:

Is it just me, or does the guy in the beard look weirdly like Joss Whedon?

Which, if it were him, would make this the coolest play ever.

Emanick

2017-06-12, 01:11 AM

JbeJ275

2017-06-12, 05:33 AM

As someone who has repeatedly quoted a stage musical about Star Wars and who knows half of Al's songs off by heart I endorse this message!

Jasdoif

2017-06-12, 10:34 AM

You know what I like? Weird Al Yankovic's "The Saga Begins." It's a parody of "American Pie" that tells the story of The Phantom Menace in eight minutes, and it's better than both "American Pie" and The Phantom Menace.It certainly is a Weird Al classic. It's not "Yoda", though.

Quebbster

2017-06-12, 11:00 AM

As someone who has repeatedly quoted a stage musical about Star Wars and who knows half of Al's songs off by heart I endorse this message!

Only half?
Seriously though, seeing Weird Al live in concert was one of the greatest things ever for me. Totally worth taking two days off from work and travelling 400 miles for...

KorvinStarmast

2017-06-12, 11:36 AM

Roy dropped a sword, not a light saber.
There are not yet any Jedi in OoTS.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-12, 11:42 AM

Roy dropped a sword, not a light saber.
There are not yet any Jedi in OoTS.

Point of order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)

GW

Quebbster

2017-06-12, 02:36 PM

Roy dropped a sword, not a light saber.
There are not yet any Jedi in OoTS.

Eh, just let the thread keep careening off-course and we're bound to end up back at OotS sooner or later.

Porthos

2017-06-12, 11:21 PM

Eh, just let the thread keep careening off-course and we're bound to end up back at OotS sooner or later.

Much like Roy and his sword, one would presume.

Quebbster

2017-06-13, 02:20 AM

Much like Roy and his sword, one would presume.

Probably. Now that the mutiny is over it's time to start fixing the situation. Andi made things a lot worse, now it's up to Bandana to make it better again.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-13, 05:03 PM

Much like Roy and his sword, one would presume.
Plot twist: We never see the Greenhilt sword again.

Kish

2017-06-13, 05:06 PM

Hundred gold says that's not going to be the case.

Jasdoif

2017-06-13, 06:23 PM

Now that the mutiny is over it's time to start fixing the situation. Andi made things a lot worse, now it's up to Bandana to make it better again.Along with Roy and the rest of the Order, I'd expect. Roy's sword isn't likely to survive the unmaking of the world it's laying on, the Mechane's almost certainly going to be much faster than trudging through or overland flight-ing across the pass, and...recent events lead me to question the crew's overall efficiency in dealing with adverse situations on their own.

137beth

2017-06-15, 07:38 AM

THERE!!!! Got it back to OotS. Finally. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

No, no! Bring the thread back to OOTS, you must not! The path to the Dark Side it is! Being on topic leads to getting derailed, getting derailed leads to parody quotes, parody quotes lead to suffering. To prevent falling to the dark side, remain off topic, the only way is.

At any rate, I don't think too much time will be spent just trying to recover Roy's sword. Either he will get it back quickly, or there will be more story before he gets it back, but that story won't be focused on getting it back.

KorvinStarmast

2017-06-15, 01:38 PM

Point of order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)
There were no Jedi in that strip. There were Star War references for comic relief. The last panel was a nice punch line.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-15, 01:50 PM

There were no Jedi in that strip. There were Star War references for comic relief. The last panel was a nice punch line.

Only Jedi Guardians (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal) use blue lightsabers. Therefore, there was a Jedi and a Sith in the last panel.

GW

hamishspence

2017-06-15, 01:56 PM

Sith occasionally use stolen lightsabers, or the lightsaber they had before if they were a Jedi-turned-Sith.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-15, 01:59 PM

Sith occasionally use stolen lightsabers, or the lightsaber they had before if they were a Jedi-turned-Sith.

[citation needed]
(Its starting to concern me that people don't seem to realise I'm joking)
GW

monomer

2017-06-15, 02:10 PM

Only Jedi Guardians (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal) use blue lightsabers. Therefore, there was a Jedi and a Sith in the last panel.

GW

You cited a Legends page which are not canon. Also, this is demonstrably false since Han Solo used a blue lightsaber in Empire Strikes Back.

Peelee

2017-06-15, 03:59 PM

Only Jedi Guardians (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal) use blue lightsabers. Therefore, there was a Jedi and a Sith in the last panel.

GW

Even in legends, this isn't quite true. Blue was the normal for for Guardians, but Jedi weren't locked into (or out of) specific colors. 1Leia's first lightsaber was red2, for instance.

1 The Jedi Path.

2 Ambush at Corellia.

Jasdoif

2017-06-15, 04:05 PM

Even in legends, this isn't quite true. Blue was the normal for for Guardians, but Jedi weren't locked into (or out of) specific colors. Leia's first lightsaber was red, for instance.Wasn't green traditional for Jedi Guardians (and blue for Jedi Consulars) at some point? I can't remember, it's like someone changed their mind every few years (as Porthos alluded to).

Peelee

2017-06-15, 04:11 PM

Wasn't green traditional for Jedi Guardians (and blue for Jedi Consulars) at some point? I can't remember, it's like someone changed their mind every few years (as Porthos alluded to).

The Jedi Path and Knight of the Old Republic both hold Blue for Guardian, Yellow for Sentinel, and Green for Consular as the traditional (but not required or exclusive) colors. I'm not familiar with anything breaking that pattern, but I can't say no with 100% certainty. 99%, I'd say.

hamishspence

2017-06-15, 04:28 PM

Even in legends, this isn't quite true. Blue was the normal for for Guardians, but Jedi weren't locked into (or out of) specific colors. 1Leia's first lightsaber was red2, for instance.

1 The Jedi Path.

2 Ambush at Corellia.

Yup - it wasn't till around AOTC that they moved away from light Jedi having red lightsabers. In TPM-era comic books, it was quite common to see Jedi with red or orange sabers.

Technically Leia had them before the Ambush at Corellia novel (she's seen wielding one in the Thrawn Trilogy and later in Dark Empire) - but she stopped carrying them, feeling that she didn't really qualify as a Jedi, having focused far more on politics than Jedi training in the period leading up to Ambush at Corellia.

Luke (having had a heart-to-heart conversation with Mon Mothma) felt that Leia was selling herself short - that she was "guarding peace and justice" just as much as he was, if in a different way - and gave her the red one to send the message "I consider you a full Jedi Knight".

That didn't really stick in the EU though, with Leia returning to apprentice status later.

Kish

2017-06-15, 04:34 PM

The EU is inconsistent as is inevitable considering the number of different agendas going into it.

Peelee

2017-06-15, 04:50 PM

Yup - it wasn't till around AOTC that they moved away from light Jedi having red lightsabers. In TPM-era comic books, it was quite common to see Jedi with red or orange sabers.

Ha! I damn near added "if I'm wrong, expect hamishspence to let you know" to my last comment.

Anyway. Yeah, the villain-red/hero-non-red thing was pretty much done for visual effect on screen.

The EU is inconsistent as is inevitable considering the number of different agendas going into it.

True, which is even worse considering they were still done under a supposedly cohesive umbrella; Shelly Shapiro was effectively in charge, but since she worked for Del Rey and not Lucas directly, it led to a tangled mess (and it didn't help when Lucas decided to nix ideas for his movies that he had previously approved for novels, like the whole Jaster Mereel cluster****). Now Pablo Hidalgo has the reins, and works for the Lucasfilm Story Group, so I hope for a tighter, more cohesive tapestry (though they still let movies take precedence and make things wonky, like having Rey be so adept at some Force Powers with no training whatsoever, while Luke and Ezra have significantly more difficulty despite having actual Jedi teaching them*).

*Gripe subject to change if anything in the future movies explain this.

Jasdoif

2017-06-15, 05:07 PM

*Gripe subject to change if anything in the future movies explain this.Is Rey Revan?

Peelee

2017-06-15, 05:19 PM

Is Rey Revan?

That's it, you're on my list.

Jasdoif

2017-06-15, 05:32 PM

That's it, you're on my list.Which list of yours? :smallconfused:

KorvinStarmast

2017-06-15, 05:38 PM

... with Leia returning to apprentice status later.
OK, at this point in the digressions, Han Shot First!

Reathin

2017-06-15, 05:48 PM

Please tell me we are not going to have to deal with getting the sword back again

What do I look like, some sort of future psychic?

Kidding aside, I'll reserve judgement for what we see. There have been instances before where I figured something wouldn't be terribly interesting and I've been proven wrong.

Or maybe Roy will learn to call it to his hand by will alone, turning it into a ranged weapon, just like Durkoff taunted.

Jasdoif

2017-06-15, 05:51 PM

OK, at this point in the digressions, Han Shot First!Well, yeah.... (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1603.html)

Peelee

2017-06-15, 05:55 PM

Which list of yours? :smallconfused:

I dunno. One of the bad ones.:smalltongue:

Jasdoif

2017-06-15, 06:06 PM

I dunno. One of the bad ones.Oh. For a moment I thought you meant a list related to The Force Awakens, and I figure being on a list for a movie I haven't seen would be a notable accomplishment.
For a brief interlude to the original thread question topic, I just realized that Roy dropping the sword may have been specifically intended to set up Roy trusting Bandana over his own abilities in the most current strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1075.html). If that's the case, there's no reason getting the sword back now would need to be difficult. Could even be the opposite, if the next step is Roy trusting someone else over his own abilities even when he does have his sword handy.

137beth

2017-06-15, 06:47 PM

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-16, 11:02 AM

[citation needed]
What would happen if a Sith got attacked while his new light-saber was in the mail? He'd have to choose between using his old blue one or dying, and I never got the impression that Sith respected Jedi traditions that much.

The Jedi Path and Knight of the Old Republic both hold Blue for Guardian, Yellow for Sentinel, and Green for Consular as the traditional (but not required or exclusive) colors. I'm not familiar with anything breaking that pattern, but I can't say no with 100% certainty. 99%, I'd say.
What about purple?

Despite older stuff Timothy Zahn wrote being rendered non-canon, this quote from 2012 is still Canon:
Wait, does he mean that Lucas flip-flops a lot, or that he sometimes turns his brain off before talking about Star Wars?

Peelee

2017-06-16, 11:13 AM

What about purple?

Not a traditional color for any of the disciplines. Which, again, are neither mandatory nor exclusive.

Xyril

2017-06-19, 05:38 PM

"Roy, your ancestral weapon was inside you this whole time."

The Jedi Path and Knight of the Old Republic both hold Blue for Guardian, Yellow for Sentinel, and Green for Consular as the traditional (but not required or exclusive) colors. I'm not familiar with anything breaking that pattern, but I can't say no with 100% certainty. 99%, I'd say.

Also, purple for the unique prestige class called "Sam Jackson."

Peelee

2017-06-19, 06:02 PM

Also, purple for the unique prestige class called "Sam Jackson."

"Hey, we'd like you to play a member of an aesthetic monastic order."

"Well, I'll need a pimp purple lightsaber with 'bad mother****er' written on it."

"Sounds good!"

Guess how I feel about Mace Windu?

ericgrau

2017-06-19, 06:11 PM

It's right in the question itself: this will be resolved within either 5 strips or 50, so we may as well wait 6 strips and ask again. Maybe 10 strips if there are still a lot of other things going on.

Option C: This is to introduce Roy's newfound sword retrieving power. And/or he spends 8 gp on a locked gauntlet.

Jasdoif

2017-06-19, 08:38 PM

Guess how I feel about Mace Windu?No. :smalltongue:

How do you feel about Mace Windu, apart from Samuel L. Jackson's portrayal of Mace Windu?

Peelee

2017-06-19, 09:49 PM

No. :smalltongue:

How do you feel about Mace Windu, apart from Samuel L. Jackson's portrayal of Mace Windu?

Oh man, that's a different question altogether.

He went from 0-60 about as fast as Anakin with the kid-killing. "Chancellor, we're here to arrest you. And by 'arrest,' I mean 'execute.'"

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-19, 10:51 PM

Guess how I feel about Mace Windu?
Well, he was in the prequels, so...best part of the movie?

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 06:28 AM

"Chancellor, we're here to arrest you. And by 'arrest,' I mean 'execute.'"

"You are under arrest"
(lightsaber duel - 3 of the 4 arresting officers killed)
"You are still under arrest"
(Force lightning)
"You are too dangerous to be kept alive"
(attempts to kill).

littlebum2002

2017-06-20, 08:35 AM

The Jedi Path and Knight of the Old Republic both hold Blue for Guardian, Yellow for Sentinel, and Green for Consular as the traditional (but not required or exclusive) colors. I'm not familiar with anything breaking that pattern, but I can't say no with 100% certainty. 99%, I'd say.

I was OK with the purple lightsaber. I was more upset with the idea that, as many Jedi as we saw in the prequels (especially the arena battle in Episode 2), not one of them was a Sentinel with a yellow blade?

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 09:09 AM

TCW managed to show us the first "canon yellow saber blades" but they were associated with the Temple Guard.

Officially, Tera Sinube's lightsaber is "light blue" but I'd say it could qualify as silver in the context of the Legendsverse (The Jedi Path did state that silver is another common Jedi Sentinel color, and that Corran Horn's grandfather Nejaa, who had a silver blade, had a similar niche - investigation.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tera_Sinube

His role as "Jedi investigator" is also almost indistinguishable from the EU's Jedi Sentinels.

So, in the canonverse, I'd be forced to say he's a Jedi Investigator with a light blue lightsaber.

But in the Legendsverse, I'd feel justified in saying he's a Jedi Sentinel with a silver/white lightsaber.

Peelee

2017-06-20, 09:12 AM

"You are under arrest"
(lightsaber duel - 3 of the 4 arresting officers killed)
"You are still under arrest"
(Force lightning)
"You are too dangerous to be kept alive"
(attempts to kill).

"I shall, in private, kill the elected leader of the Republic at the height of a calamitous civil war. Surely nothing bad could come of this decision, and all will respect it as the right thing to do."

Also, what was up with there being no recording of him clearly murdering peaceful arresting officers, which clearly contradicts his story and the entire basis for the Jedi purge, while the knghting of Darth Vader, in the same place and almost the same time, had a crystal clear holo?

Kish

2017-06-20, 09:13 AM

"You are under arrest"
(lightsaber duel - 3 of the 4 arresting officers killed)
"You are still under arrest"
(Force lightning)
"You are too dangerous to be kept alive"
(attempts to kill).
I'm more concerned with consistency.

i.e., is striking down a seemingly-helpless one-dimensional monster with no redeeming qualities[1] a Fall-worthy action as Return of the Jedi suggests[2], or not?

[1]I will never forgive George Lucas for wasting a chance to actually give Palpatine motivations beyond "Because I'm eeeeee-villlll!"
[2]Ideally, answer without implying that the climax of Return of the Jedi hinges on Luke being a moron who believed something blatantly false was true just because the aforementioned monster said it.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 09:15 AM

Also, what was up with there being no recording of him clearly murdering peaceful arresting officers, which clearly contradicts his story and the entire basis for the Jedi purge, while the knghting of Darth Vader, in the same place and almost the same time, had a crystal clear holo?

That wasn't his knighting in the ROTS holo Obi-Wan saw - that was the Emperor talking to Vader in the Temple, after the massacre.

Presumably he'd switched off the visuals and/or edited the holos in his office themselves.

In the novel (which has very different dialogue for the arrest scene he records the arrest attempt itself, but ends the recording before anything incriminating him can be shown). And is specified as having played that start part, to the Senate.

Kish

2017-06-20, 09:17 AM

"Reaching the west of reaches, get up!"

Peelee

2017-06-20, 09:19 AM

That wasn't his knighting in the ROTS holo Obi-Wan saw - that was the Emperor talking to Vader in the Temple, after the massacre.

That makes a lot more sense. And is either a bit subtle in the movie, or it's been too long since I saw it and just flubbed a memory check. Either way, I withdraw that complaint.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 10:35 AM

I'm more concerned with consistency.

i.e., is striking down a seemingly-helpless one-dimensional monster with no redeeming qualities[1] a Fall-worthy action as Return of the Jedi suggests[2], or not?

[1]I will never forgive George Lucas for wasting a chance to actually give Palpatine motivations beyond "Because I'm eeeeee-villlll!"
[2]Ideally, answer without implying that the climax of Return of the Jedi hinges on Luke being a moron who believed something blatantly false was true just because the aforementioned monster said it.Luke killing out of anger and hatred would have been a large step towards the Dark Side, whoever his target was; a step Palpatine would've been right there to capitalize on.

Kish

2017-06-20, 10:40 AM

1) If Luke killed Palpatine Palpatine would have been dead.
2) Luke couldn't have killed him "for the right reasons," but Mace Windu could have? Is there any possible way a third party could tell a difference between the situations and the way the Jedi act that isn't in favor of Mace's killing the Chancellor being less justified, more about rage, and less about necessity than Luke's killing the Emperor?

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 10:56 AM

1) If Luke killed Palpatine Palpatine would have been dead.Oh, I thought you were talking you about Luke killing Vader....Well, if Palpatine was really willing to just let Luke kill him he would have dismissed Vader along with his guards. I would surmise that Palpatine was specifically attempting to get Luke to act on his anger instead of other motivations by planting the thought in his head...a successful attempt, I might add.

2) Luke couldn't have killed him "for the right reasons," but Mace Windu could have?Luke probably could have, though it would be was a heck of a lot harder to set aside his feelings towards Vader....But I am not inclined to give Mace Windu the benefit of the doubt in this instance, as I don't think he's earned it (four Jedi Masters with active lightsabers suggests "hit squad" more than "arrest warrant").

Vinyadan

2017-06-20, 10:59 AM

Luke killing out of anger and hatred would have been a large step towards the Dark Side, whoever his target was; a step Palpatine would've been right there to capitalize on.

He's too dangerous to live -> Dooku and Palpatine. Was Palpatine acting Jedi then? Or was Mace Windu acting Sith?

Also, I just watched the OV of Mace's death. The script and voice acting seems so bad to me, I am wondering if I watched a parody instead.

Kish

2017-06-20, 11:03 AM

Luke probably could have, though it would be was a heck of a lot harder to set aside his feelings towards Vader....But I am not inclined to give Mace Windu the benefit of the doubt in this instance, as I don't think he's earned it (four Jedi Masters with active lightsabers suggests "hit squad" more than "arrest warrant").
That means that in the "Anakin falls" scene in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin effectively had no good choice. Watch Mace murder Palpatine and fall? Stop Mace from murdering Palpatine and watch Palpatine murder Mace? And yet, thematically, I'm reasonably sure George Lucas meant for Anakin to have made a bad, fall-worthy, "it's not ludicrous to have him butchering children in his next scene" decision.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 11:10 AM

That means that in the "Anakin falls" scene in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin effectively had no good choice. Watch Mace murder Palpatine and fall? Stop Mace from murdering Palpatine and watch Palpatine murder Mace? And yet, thematically, I'm reasonably sure George Lucas meant for Anakin to have made a bad, fall-worthy, "it's not ludicrous to have him butchering children in his next scene" decision.All true. It's the longstanding classic "what do you do when there is no easy choice" of drama, with a horribly mangled execution because the movie prioritized showing the outcome of the "fall" over setting up the fall itself.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 11:19 AM

(four Jedi Masters with active lightsabers suggests "hit squad" more than "arrest warrant").

I would not want to be your criminal defense attorney. "Look judge, four obviously high-ranking police officers came up to me with guns drawn. That suggested "hit squad" more than "arrest warrant," so I acted accordingly."

Remember, lightsabers can also be used purely defensively. Although the speed at which lightsabers are depicted activating seems to vary depending on what would look cooler in a given scene, it's slow enough that I think there is a non-zero range of situations where a Jedi master who needs to activate his weapon won't be able to deflect an attack in time, and one who already has it turned on will.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 11:22 AM

Given that Mace is still saying "You are under arrest" after three of his companions are dead and Palpatine's lightsaber is out the window, it does seem like taking Palpatine alive was somewhat in his mind.

Bavarian itP

2017-06-20, 11:38 AM

[1]I will never forgive George Lucas for wasting a chance to actually give Palpatine motivations beyond "Because I'm eeeeee-villlll!"

Palpatine's motivation was Power, and power alone. A cynic might say, that makes Palpatine the only realistic character in Star Wars.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 11:43 AM

I would not want to be your criminal defense attorney. "Look judge, four obviously high-ranking police officers came up to me with guns drawn. That suggested "hit squad" more than "arrest warrant," so I acted accordingly."You forgot "I'm not some druglord in a warehouse with a personal militia, I'm the legitimately appointed representative of the entire Republic in a government building! Arrests of public officials are made without such overblown displays of force. And Senator Amidala was attacked by a shapeshifter assassin and the Separatists, we've been at war with for the past few years, are known to make use of lightsabers. Am I supposed to believe that every armed group that storms into my office unannounced with weapons drawn is not some sort of attack by the Separatists? Or am I to believe the Republic has become a police state; where anyone who can assume the appearance of an agent of the law can do whatever they wish, and kill whomever they wish?"

Kish

2017-06-20, 12:01 PM

Palpatine's motivation was Power, and power alone. A cynic might say, that makes Palpatine the only realistic character in Star Wars.
Replace "cynic" with "thirteen-year-old who thinks any nonsense is profound as long as it sounds grim enough," and I'll agree--without that altering what I said to begin with by a fraction of a letter.

Vinyadan

2017-06-20, 12:12 PM

Palpatine's motivation was Power, and power alone. A cynic might say, that makes Palpatine the only realistic character in Star Wars.

I think that too little of his ambition was shown. He's constantly just standing there. He's supposed to be a politician, but doesn't look like a people person.
Besides, power can be sought for other reasons than power itself. It might be because you believe it's your right, or because you want not to be given orders, to enjoy a more comfortable life, to change the laws and make something possible, to crush the state/man which is about to crush you, to create or block change, or because you have such unorderly desires, that only a kingdom could satiate them.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 12:17 PM

I will never forgive George Lucas for wasting a chance to actually give Palpatine motivations beyond "Because I'm eeeeee-villlll!"Hmm. Given how "well" he did giving Vader motivations, maybe he'd have wasted the chance with Palpatine even if he had taken it?

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-20, 12:20 PM

t might be because you believe it's your right, or because you want not to be given orders, to enjoy a more comfortable life, to change the laws and make something possible, to crush the state/man which is about to crush you, to create or block change, or because you have such unorderly desires, that only a kingdom could satiate them.

And that's just the first ten emperors* of Rome!

GW

*Including, and therefore counting from, Julius Caesar

littlebum2002

2017-06-20, 12:21 PM

Replace "cynic" with "thirteen-year-old who thinks any nonsense is profound as long as it sounds grim enough," and I'll agree--without that altering what I said to begin with by a fraction of a letter.

I'm sorry, but are you trying to say that only a naive child would believe that a man would do evil things to become the most powerful man in the world? You obviously haven't seen the news lately.

Given current events that i will not discuss, i think Palpatine's motivations are VERY plausible. He wanted power, and he was willing to do and say anything to get it. That sounds terrifyingly familiar.

Monday

2017-06-20, 12:37 PM

I'm more concerned with consistency.

[1]I will never forgive George Lucas for wasting a chance to actually give Palpatine motivations beyond "Because I'm eeeeee-villlll!"

Hey, sometimes being evil is all the motivation you need to make the best scene in a series.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/83/a1/7c/83a17c816b9f8e54f8777cc5d1e22f67.jpg

The Aboleth

2017-06-20, 01:39 PM

[2]Ideally, answer without implying that the climax of Return of the Jedi hinges on Luke being a moron who believed something blatantly false was true just because the aforementioned monster said it.

I recently rewatched ROTJ and am confused. What is the "blatantly false something" you are referring to?

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 01:45 PM

Xyril

2017-06-20, 02:03 PM

You forgot "I'm not some druglord in a warehouse with a personal militia, I'm the legitimately appointed representative of the entire Republic in a government building!

You're deliberately ignoring one important thing: Palpatine KNOWS he's Sith. He KNOWS that, depending on the circumstances and which four particular Jedi are the ones doing the arresting, he could plausibly kill them all in the fight. Your logic is basically "I've done such a good job concealing the fact that I have substantial combat prowess derived from dark forces that there's no plausible way someone could have found out and thus decide to take reasonable precautions while apprehending me! Since I've completely ruled out that possibility, I must therefore assume that they think I'm a helpless old man, and that they're here to kill me! Therefore, I am justified in making a preemptive strike in which I use my substantial combat prowess, and the mole I've been cultivating for years for this very moment, to kill them all in a fight."

Also, on the topic of "there's no plausible way someone could have found out," he told Anakan. So in your analogy, the elected official told his friend in the police that he's secretly a drug dealer who was trained in Spetsnaz and keeps an arsenal of concealed weapons near him at all times, then the police come in with guns drawn, and the elected official thinks "There's no plausible way that the police found out that I'm armed and dangerous, because there's no way the police officer I confided in would have passed that information on to his superiors, therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that this is a hit, not an arrest and therefore I'm justified in using my special forces training and hidden cache of weapons to preemptively murder them.

Arrests of public officials are made without such overblown displays of force.

Yes, they sometimes are. Elected officials sometimes have their own private security--particularly if they're a wealthy, but lower ranking official who get only a token detail, or no detail at all, from the Secret Service or the state police. If I were to arrest the President of the United States, I would assume that his detail wouldn't use force to help him illegally resist arrest and send a single agent to serve the arrest warrant. If I were to arrest some random state assemblyman with suspected mob ties and a protective detail comprised of a single state trooper, and a dozen bodyguards who have worked for him for far longer than he'd held the office, I would absolutely want my officers to take reasonable precautions. Despite what you seem to think, there wasn't enough detail given in the movie to tell us with any certainty which of these scenarios is closer to Palpatine's situation.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 02:15 PM

Replace "cynic" with "thirteen-year-old who thinks any nonsense is profound as long as it sounds grim enough," and I'll agree--without that altering what I said to begin with by a fraction of a letter.

Respectfully, I think the naive thirteen-year old is the guy who thinks it's not plausible that someone acts entirely out of self-interest.

By your logic, Hitler must have been motivated by a sincere desire to make Germany great again for his grandchildren, or wanted to build up Earth's defenses to prepare for the upcoming alien invasion, or he sincerely and reasonably believed that the Jews were a threat to humanity and tried to exterminate them in an act of altruism, because only a "thirteen-year-old who thinks any nonsense is profound as long as it sounds grim enough" would believe that he was simply a man who wanted to be the most powerful man in his country, and for his country to be the most powerful country in the world, and who was prepared to do anything and everything to achieve that goal.

By your logic, nobody ever takes a high-paying job in a field they don't particularly enjoy because they simply want to make money for its own sake: They must be doing it because there's no other way they can pay off some huge debts their family accumulated in their backstory, or they sincerely believe in the capacity of the invisible hand of the marketplace to do good and feel that it is their duty to be part of that, despite hating working in finance.

There are certainly criminals who aren't as evil as people assume, and politicians who are decried as selfish and corrupt, when in fact they do have principles and a sense of duty that their detractors don't always notice; however, to deny that evil can exist, to be an apologist for it, is to be complicit.

The Aboleth

2017-06-20, 02:23 PM

The idea is that if killing Palpatine is not a fall-worthy act for Mace, then it shouldn't be a fall-worthy act for Luke.

However, Palpatine can tell there is hate in Luke.

"Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the Dark Side will be complete."

Is this claim made "blatantly false" by Mace trying to strike down Palpatine?

Not if Mace has a lot less hatred than Luke.

Got it, thanks for clarifying!

Personally, I think the difference lies in the motives (or feelings, since those seem to matter to Jedi and Sith in the movies) behind the killings. I didn't really get the sense that Mace was trying to kill Palpatine because he hated him--he might have hated him, but the DRIVING FORCE behind the act was because Mace felt it was necessary for the greater good of society (or whatever phrase you want to insert there). Luke, on the other hand, was driven into a blind murder-rage--remember he states several times in the movie before then that he has no desire to kill Vader, but rather redeem him. Thus, I can see the argument for Luke's killing to have been Fall-worthy and Mace's to have been not.

I'm no Star Wars lore buff though, so I could be completely off.

Kish

2017-06-20, 02:32 PM

I recently rewatched ROTJ and am confused. What is the "blatantly false something" you are referring to?
One potential way to reconcile the "Mace Windu tried to kill Chancellor Palpatine and there's no indication he was doing anything wrong" thing with "the Emperor claimed that Luke would fall if he struck the Emperor down" would be to say that killing Palpatine, in either iteration, would have been perfectly morally safe. That the scene where the Emperor blasts Luke with Force Lightning only happened because Luke was supremely foolish in not cutting Palpatine in half as soon as Vader was no longer directly blocking him from doing so. I would consider that an unfortunate conclusion.

Respectfully, I think the naive thirteen-year old is the guy who thinks it's not plausible that someone acts entirely out of self-interest.

By your logic,
...no dude. By my logic, Hitler was not born a one-dimensional caricature of evil who was motivated solely by power-lust (indeed, at the apex of his career he was hugely motivated by racism and other prejudices, as is a matter of historical record to the point where it's fairly goofy that you're implying it's not the case). By my logic, someone who takes a job in a field they don't enjoy doesn't suddenly lose their personality as a result. I don't know if you just weren't paying any attention at all to the conversation before you jumped into it or are so offended by criticism of the Star Wars prequels that beating up on funny-looking strawmen strikes you as a valid response, but saying "respectfully" doesn't actually make something respectful, you know.

The Emperor being a one-dimensional cartoon villain was okay in Return of the Jedi, which, as far as I could ever tell, never claimed to be anything more than a straightforward space opera at the level of moral complexity of one of the Westerns where the villain wears a black hat, but the prequel movies could have shown how Palpatine came to be utterly evil, and instead they had him be, at the beginning of The Phantom Menace, essentially exactly the same one-dimensional cartoon villain he was at the end of Return of the Jedi. That's bad writing, and a wasted opportunity--whether Lucas was ever a good enough writer to take proper advantage of the opportunity if he'd tried or not, he simply threw it away instead of trying.

martianmister

2017-06-20, 02:35 PM

or wanted to build up Earth's defenses to prepare for the upcoming alien invasion

Wasn't that Palpatine's endgame in EU?

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 02:37 PM

Yes, they sometimes are. Elected officials sometimes have their own private security--particularly if they're a wealthy, but lower ranking official who get only a token detail, or no detail at all, from the Secret Service or the state police.So...you're saying "some elected officials have private security, so Palpatine can be treated as if he had private security even when none is present"?

The Aboleth

2017-06-20, 02:44 PM

One potential way to reconcile the "Mace Windu tried to kill Chancellor Palpatine and there's no indication he was doing anything wrong" thing with "the Emperor claimed that Luke would fall if he struck the Emperor down" would be to say that killing Palpatine, in either iteration, would have been perfectly morally safe. That the scene where the Emperor blasts Luke with Force Lightning only happened because Luke was supremely foolish in not cutting Palpatine in half as soon as Vader was no longer directly blocking him from doing so. I would consider that an unfortunate conclusion.

Ah, now I completely understand. In my previous reply I somehow thought you were talking about Luke trying to kill Vader and relating that to Mace trying to kill Palpatine. Now I see that you're referring to Luke attempting to kill PALPATINE. Got it. Please excuse the confusion, I rolled a Nat 1 on my reading comprehension.

I still think "the feelings that are driving the attempted killings matter" point from my previous post applies, though.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 02:46 PM

Wasn't that Palpatine's endgame in EU?

More Thrawn's than Palpatine's. Palpatine was plotting to become Emperor long before he discovered the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong. He probably didn't see them as an especially serious threat.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 02:54 PM

So...you're saying "some elected officials have private security, so Palpatine can be treated as if he had private security even when none is present"?

No. I'm saying that it's not as black and white as you seem to think. I'm also saying that 1) Palpatine is a Sith Lord. 2) He told a Jedi Knight that he was a Sith Lord. 3) The Jedi Council knew he was a Sith Lord. 4) A Sith Lord is capable of killing trained Jedi, even when apparently unarmed. 5) When arresting someone who you have reason to believe has the power to throw Force Lightning at you, it is reasonable to have your Force Lighting deflection devices at the ready.

Next time, please address the content of my argument instead of the straw man argument you wish I had stated. However, conspicuously ignoring a few things I said does make your response appear more reasonable, so I understand why you did it.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 03:00 PM

However, conspicuously ignoring a few things I said does make your response appear more reasonable, so I understand why you did it.Wait...are you not still on the "defense attorney" angle?

Xyril

2017-06-20, 03:04 PM

More Thrawn's than Palpatine's. Palpatine was plotting to become Emperor long before he discovered the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong. He probably didn't see them as an especially serious threat.

Honestly, I always felt that the "outside threat" justification was--in universe--either a bit of a revisionist history by Palpatine apologists or an acknowledgment that a united and militarized Empire would have had some advantages. I think that, at most, Palpatine had an abstract belief that uniting the galaxy by force would make it less vulnerable to some theoretical outside invasion, but like you say, he had already chosen his path long before becoming aware of any concrete threats.

If we're counting EU, I find the quest for immortality the much more compelling motivation for Palpatine. If we're only considering the movies in a vacuum, I read him as either wanting power for its own sake or as a means to control the galaxy around him as means to protect himself.

Kish

2017-06-20, 03:06 PM

I still think "the feelings that are driving the attempted killings matter" point from my previous post applies, though.
Sure, but how is that to Mace's favor rather than Luke's? Mace had a helpless Sith Lord at lightsaber point, charring himself whenever he tried to blast Mace, and decided to go for the kill anyway (with the same statement Palpatine used to urge Anakin to kill Dooku, as has been pointed out). Luke had the fate of everyone he cared about riding on the Emperor's death and no one else likely to kill the Emperor. And Samuel L. Jackson is acting way angrier and less in control than Mark Hamill. If someone showed me both scenes, and said "One of these people is motivated by rage and hatred and is at risk of falling, the other is acting for the right reasons and is at no risk of falling," there would be no doubt in my mind that Mace was the one who was at risk of falling.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 03:11 PM

The book that confirmed that Thrawn knew of the Vong (telling Darth Sidious's henchman Doriana, who was the first of Sidious's people to meet him, of the Chiss's first encounter with a Vong task force), was Outbound Flight.

In the newcanon, Thrawn's reasoning for joining the Empire is the same "threats out there more evil than the Empire itself" but the Vong themselves aren't named.

He even says at one point that the Chiss had to choose whether to join the Empire, or to sacrifice the Empire, in the face of those threats - and that was why they sent him to them - to make the decision one whether the Empire would be an ally or a sacrifice.

This is to a Rebel he's trying to talk into joining him.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 03:21 PM

Wait...are you not still on the "defense attorney" angle?

The "defense attorney angle" was a one-off joke that you're apparently now using to justify the straw-manning?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, against my better judgment, and assume this is a sincere question. No. I am purely saying that your assertions have been unreasonable. As I have pointed out repeatedly, the movies didn't depict all of the relevant circumstances. In my view, what the movie did depict (Palpatine is Sith, Palpatine admits he was Sith to a Jedi, Jedi were aware of an unidentified Sith Lord acting against the Republic for some time, Sith Lords are dangerous even when alone and unarmed, lightsabers have substantial capacity to be used defensively that guns/blasters do not, etc.) weighs heavily in favor of the Jedi being completely reasonable. However, I acknowledged the possibility that unseen circumstances might change that analysis completely. You, on the other hand, rely heavily on unsourced implied assumptions to justify your conclusion that the Jedi were wrong, period, and are not open to the possibility that unseen facts might change that analysis. It is this intransigent position I disagreed with.

If you want me to argue "the defense attorney angle," then my answer is simple: You are wrong, at least under pretty much every jurisdiction in the United States. The various states recognize the right to self-defense with varying degrees of latitude as to when it is or isn't reasonable. However, even in states such as Florida, which gained notoriety for being very permissive in terms of self-defense and preemptive use of force, self-defense does not apply to law enforcement officers. In fact, the law is generally applied with strict liability with respect to your victim being a police officer. In other words, if you hear about a serial killer pretending to be a cop making traffic stops, you get pulled over by a cop, and you think he's a fake cop because he's inexperienced, hasn't learned to act very "cop-like" yet, doesn't have his uniform on right, etc. and so you shoot him, then you don't get to argue self-defense no matter how sincere and reasonable you belief that he wasn't a cop.

It's like statutory rape laws--it doesn't matter if she showed you two forms of ID, you met her in an age 21+ nightclub, and she looks and acts like she's thirty--if her biological age is low enough, you're breaking the law no matter how innocent your intent. Same with killing police officers trying to arrest you--no matter how unreasonable their show of force, no matter how reasonable you think it is for an innocent person to panic and defend himself, in the eyes of the law, no matter how innocent you are, if they were police officers, and you harmed them, then you're certainly not innocent anymore.

The Aboleth

2017-06-20, 03:22 PM

Sure, but how is that to Mace's favor rather than Luke's? Mace had a helpless Sith Lord at lightsaber point, charring himself whenever he tried to blast Mace, and decided to go for the kill anyway (with the same statement Palpatine used to urge Anakin to kill Dooku, as has been pointed out). Luke had the fate of everyone he cared about riding on the Emperor's death and no one else likely to kill the Emperor. And Samuel L. Jackson is acting way angrier and less in control than Mark Hamill. If someone showed me both scenes, and said "One of these people is motivated by rage and hatred and is at risk of falling, the other is acting for the right reasons and is at no risk of falling," there would be no doubt in my mind that Mace was the one who was at risk of falling.

I'm not necessarily in disagreement, I'm just trying to figure out an argument that would justify one action being Fall-worthy and one not. I suppose you could say both WOULD have been Fall-worthy and Mace was ok with the consequences of that since he still was doing it for (what he believed were) Good reasons, or perhaps he didn't know it would be Fall-worthy and he'd become the Star Wars equivalent of Miko.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree Lucas's writing was convoluted at best and awful at worst.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 03:25 PM

I suppose you could say both WOULD have been Fall-worthy and Mace was ok with the consequences of that since he still was doing it for (what he believed were) Good reasons, or perhaps he didn't know it would be Fall-worthy and he'd become the Star Wars equivalent of Miko.

That comparison was being used at the time - people comparing Miko to Mace and Shojo to Palpatine - the differences being that Miko hadn't been struck at by Shojo's sword, or blasted by Shojo's lightning, among others.)

Xyril

2017-06-20, 03:34 PM

The book that confirmed that Thrawn knew of the Vong (telling Darth Sidious's henchman Doriana, who was the first of Sidious's people to meet him, of the Chiss's first encounter with a Vong task force), was Outbound Flight.

True, but at this point in time, Palpatine had already taken concrete steps to destabilize the Republic, so even if he learned about the Vong from Thrawn or others at this time, or even slightly before it, it happened to late to claim that the knowledge of the Vong motivated Palpatine's actions. IIRC, Outbound flight was set after the Clone Wars movie, during the Clone Wars series/comics, and Palpatine had been implementing his plan since before The Phantom Menace.

In the newcanon, Thrawn's reasoning for joining the Empire is the same "threats out there more evil than the Empire itself" but the Vong themselves aren't named.

This doesn't surprise me. Personally, I generally liked the Vong, the way their no-force gimmick was used to provide a plausible challenge to the Jedi and as a catalyst to character development, and how their history was used to explain their conduct, but not to excuse it, and to provide an avenue for redemption at the end. However, I recognize that their reception was divided at best, and I just don't see Disney has having the artistic courage to make such a risky decision as to bring them back. Everyone liked the original trilogy, so The Force Awakens conspicuously replicated elements from those movies while avoiding a repeat of the prequel trilogy. Everyone loves Thrawn (I'd argue he's perhaps the single most compelling EU-only character), so we get Thrawn. I don't see Disney bringing back the Vong--they're simply not a safe choice, and to me, Disney seems more interested in being safe and protecting the franchise they paid billions for than they are in taking a risk to advance that franchise.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 03:38 PM

Lucasfilm came very close to using the Vong in more mainstream media - a Vong ship was slated to appear in TCW before it was cancelled.

Outbound flight was set after the Clone Wars movie, during the Clone Wars series/comics, and Palpatine had been implementing his plan since before The Phantom Menace.

Not quite - but right general idea - it was 5 years after TPM, 5 years before AOTC - and Palpatine was recruited by Darth Plagueis as a teenager, several decades before TPM.

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 03:47 PM

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt...and assume this is a sincere question. No. I am purely saying that your assertions have been unreasonable.Well that rather changes things, since there's no longer a judge to convince of/against narrative facts. It also partly obviates the uncertainty around Mace not specifically calling out what Palpatine was under arrest for, which seems kind of odd.

In the more general sense, the part that really messes this up is that Mace Windu, who's been mildly distrusting of Anakin throughout the movies, said in response to Anakin telling him that Palpatine was a Sith Lord...was that he sensed much confusion in Anakin, and wasn't convinced when he set off to arrest Palpatine. Threatening Palpatine if he was not a Sith Lord doesn't seem prudent, nor does providing forewarning to him if he was.

Well, unless Mace was specifically trying to provoke a response to determine if he was or was not a Sith Lord, with the expectation that he could handle Palpatine if so. Of course, "handling" a Sith Lord is rather unlikely to happen in a civilized fashion. And then, as Kish mentioned, is that Mace seemed particularly angry. Whether that's just Samuel L. Jackson's acting, or something in the script to make it seem like Anakin had reason for cutting off Mace's hand, or intended to be some reflection of Mace Windu's development of a lightsaber style centered around mentally skirting around the edge of the Dark Side, or Mace being understandably angry about the abrupt deaths of the Jedi Masters around him, or Mace as the Jedi's premier lightsaber duelist being distracted on account of never having encountered a threat of this level before, or something else entirely, or some combination thereof...is something I can't determine.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 03:51 PM

That comparison was being used at the time - people comparing Miko to Mace and Shojo to Palpatine - the differences being that Miko hadn't been struck at by Shojo's sword, or blasted by Shojo's lightning, among others.)

I think there were a few other important differences. Shojo was at worst a liar and a hypocrite, and perhaps his scheming resulted in deaths that would not have otherwise. Miko wasn't killing him out of a reasonable belief that Shojo represented a concrete threat, he simply fell short of Miko's lawful-jerk morality as most people do. Palpatine had just killed three Jedi who were trying to arrest him--pretty handily, too. After a long struggle, Mace subdued him, putting him in a vulnerable position, and instead of finishing him off, Mace held back in order to arrest him... and Palpatine tried to blast him with Force Lightning anyway. It's the equivalent of four police officers getting in a gun fight with a suspect, who kills three of the officers, and then runs out of ammo after a protracted shootout with the surviving officer...and when that surviving officer holds him at gunpoint and tells him to surrender, he pulls a knife and makes a hail Mary attempt to kill that last cop. Nothing about Shojo implied that he had either the ability or the inclination to harm Miko or anyone else around him.

Really, the only parallel between Shojo and Palpatine is that arresting them might not have led to a conviction, and even that is questionable: The paladins are loyal, but not to the extent that loyalty trumps adherence to their code. If Shojo had the power to avoid arrest even if--as Miko alleged--he flagrantly violated their code, then he wouldn't have spent the past decades constantly maintaining his persona to avoid being seen violating that code.

Edit: "held back", not "head back"

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 03:53 PM

A fairly good summary of the "among other differences" bit.

If Shojo had the power to avoid arrest even if--as Miko alleged--he flagrantly violated their code, then he wouldn't have spent the past decades constantly maintaining his persona to avoid being seen violating that code.

It would have been a lot easier for him to rig other people's trials than to rig his own.

Xyril

2017-06-20, 04:16 PM

It also partly obviates the uncertainty around Mace not specifically calling out what Palpatine was under arrest for, which seems kind of odd.

This is also untrue. Police are not required to tell you what you're being arrested for at the moment of arrest--and often, they don't. They have to have some vague notion of the crime you committed in order for the arrest to be legitimate, but that is in many respects academic. Legally, they aren't required to list the specific charges until they file the charging document--and if, for whatever reason, they choose not to file charges, they can release you and they're never legally obligated to inform you of the charges.

I think what bothers you is privilege--if you're wealthy, well-connected, or a high-ranking government official, there's a certain expectation that you'll be treated with kid gloves, and Palpatine checks multiple boxes. However, this is a matter of pragmatism more than anything else--the law doesn't require that the powerful have special rights the common folk don't, nor do the police believe the powerful deserve special treatment.

Threatening Palpatine if he was not a Sith Lord doesn't seem prudent, nor does providing forewarning to him if he was.

In a vacuum, it's a choice that caries substantial risk. In context, the Jedi knew that there had been a substantial Sith plot being carried out under their collective noses, and as time passed without Jedi intervention, the Sith would only consolidate power. Then Anakin tells them that the Sith Lord was in fact the chancellor who has secured unprecedented amounts of personal power in the government--in other words, the Sith plan was far further along than the Jedi suspected. This implies urgency that might justify a risky decision.

I think you oversimplify by saying "Mace doesn't trust Anakin." If Mace had believed Anakin was a pathological liar, then it would make no sense to take him at his word. However, that's not really how Mace felt about Anakin--to me, it seemed like he felt that Anakin wasn't in control of his emotions and had divided loyalties, and for those reasons he couldn't always trust Anakin to be completely forthcoming and to always act in the interest of the Order and the Republic. In that context, it actually makes sense not to assume Anakin is lying--Anakin is loyal to the Jedi, but also to others. At any given moment, that loyalty to others may prompt Anakin to keep secrets from the Jedi, but as circumstances change, Anakin might change his mind.

or something in the script to make it seem like Anakin had reason for cutting off Mace's hand,

Well, there's that whole subplot where Anakin still felt loyalty to the Jedi, his master in particular, and had strong reservations about the dark side, but on the other hand felt great affinity to Palpatine as an individual and also saw him as the only means to save the life of the woman he loved. Thus, it would be entirely consistent with his characterization for him to act to prevent Palpatine from subverting the Republic, destroying the Jedi, and taking over, so long as Palpatine remains alive to save Padme. It would also be consistent if--upon seeing that Mace no longer was willing to risk taking Palpatine alive, and Palpatine apparently never intended to be taken alive, Anakin decided that saving Padme was more important than saving the Jedi.

hamishspence

2017-06-20, 04:23 PM

It would also be consistent if--upon seeing that Mace no longer was willing to risk taking Palpatine alive, and Palpatine apparently never intended to be taken alive, Anakin decided that saving Padme was more important than saving the Jedi.

The novelisation was always better at this sort of thing:

"It's them or me, Anakin. Or perhaps I should put it more plainly: It's them or Padme."
Anakin made his right hand—his black-gloved hand of durasteel and electrodrivers—into a fist.
"It's just—it's not... easy, that's all. I have—I've been a Jedi for so long—"
Sidious offered an appalling smile. "There is a place within you, my boy, a place as briskly clean as ice on a mountaintop, cool and remote. Find that high place, and look down within yourself; breathe that clean, icy air as you regard your guilt and shame. Do not deny them; observe them. Take your horror in your hands and look at it. Examine it as a phenomenon. Smell it. Taste it. Come to know it as only you can, for it is yours, and it is precious."
As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them—if anything, they burned hotter than before—but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.
"You have found it, my boy: I can feel you there. That cold distance—that mountaintop within yourself—that is the first key to the power of the Sith."
Anakin opened his eyes and turned his gaze fully upon the grotesque features of Darth Sidious.
He didn't even blink.
As he looked upon that mask of corruption, the revulsion he felt was real, and it was powerful, and it was—
Interesting.
Anakin lifted his hand of durasteel and electrodrivers and cupped it, staring into its palm as though he held there the fear that had haunted his dreams for his whole life, and it was no larger than the piece of shuura he'd once stolen from Padme's plate.

On the mountain peak within himself, he weighed Padme's life against the Jedi Order.
It was no contest.
He said, "Yes."
"Yes to what, my boy?"
"Yes, I want your knowledge."
"Good. Good!"
"I want your power. I want the power to stop death."
"That power only my Master truly achieved, but together we will find it. The Force is strong with you, my boy. You can do anything."
"The Jedi betrayed you," Anakin said. "The Jedi betrayed both of us."
"As you say. Are you ready?"
"I am," he said, and meant it. "I give myself to you. I pledge myself to the ways of the Sith. Take me as your apprentice. Teach me. Lead me. Be my Master."

Jasdoif

2017-06-20, 05:19 PM

They have to have some vague notion of the crime you committed in order for the arrest to be legitimate, but that is in many respects academic.I'm sure in some times/locales even that isn't required for legitimacy.

I just double-checked the movie though, and Mace Windu did say they were already headed to the Chancellor's office to ensure he returned his emergency powers to the Senate, before Anakin mentioned he was a Sith Lord, so that removes my feeling of oddness.

I think what bothers you is privilege--if you're wealthy, well-connected, or a high-ranking government official, there's a certain expectation that you'll be treated with kid gloves, and Palpatine checks multiple boxes.I was thinking more like "forcibly removing the Chancellor of the Republic from office, at the end of a war centered around whether or not the Republic deserves to exist to have an office, seems likely to cause/extend a lot of civil problems". Maybe that's a subset?

In a vacuum, it's a choice that caries substantial risk. In context, the Jedi knew that there had been a substantial Sith plot being carried out under their collective noses, and as time passed without Jedi intervention, the Sith would only consolidate power. Then Anakin tells them that the Sith Lord was in fact the chancellor who has secured unprecedented amounts of personal power in the government--in other words, the Sith plan was far further along than the Jedi suspected. This implies urgency that might justify a risky decision.Hmm. Possible I suppose.

Well, there's that whole subplot where Anakin still felt loyalty to the Jedi, his master in particular, and had strong reservations about the dark side, but on the other hand felt great affinity to Palpatine as an individual and also saw him as the only means to save the life of the woman he loved. Thus, it would be entirely consistent with his characterization for him to act to prevent Palpatine from subverting the Republic, destroying the Jedi, and taking over, so long as Palpatine remains alive to save Padme. It would also be consistent if--upon seeing that Mace no longer was willing to risk taking Palpatine alive, and Palpatine apparently never intended to be taken alive, Anakin decided that saving Padme was more important than saving the Jedi.All true, and all unrelated to Mace's expression. A hypothetical "we'll make Mace's face look angry too just in case" in the script wouldn't be the strangest decision I noticed in the prequels.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-20, 10:00 PM

That means that in the "Anakin falls" scene in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin effectively had no good choice. Watch Mace murder Palpatine and fall? Stop Mace from murdering Palpatine and watch Palpatine murder Mace?
Remind me never to play a paladin in any campaign Lucas DMs.

Palpatine's motivation was Power, and power alone. A cynic might say, that makes Palpatine the only realistic character in Star Wars.
For all its importance, power is nothing on its own. Power for power's sake is meaningless; one must have a specific goal they wish to apply that power to for that power to have any meaning. Someone who wants power for its own sake is, at best, a caricature of a corrupt politician or businessman. Such people are as realistic as one-dimensional villains. (Which isn't surprising, given their overlap. Many bland villains' motivations can be summarized as "do evil so I can get power, get power so I can do evil, repeat".)

I'm sorry, but are you trying to say that only a naive child would believe that a man would do evil things to become the most powerful man in the world? You obviously haven't seen the news lately.
Given current events that i will not discuss, i think Palpatine's motivations are VERY plausible. He wanted power, and he was willing to do and say anything to get it. That sounds terrifyingly familiar.
Whoever the world leader you're talking about, and whatever time you're referring to, I stand by my above statement. Call me naive if you will, but I'm convinced that every evil action has a logical and, more than likely, sympathetic motivation behind it. They just want to bring their country back to its perceived former glory, to protect its citizens, to stop a major threat to the world. (Of course, this doesn't shield them from criticism if their methods have undesirable side effects, unacceptable costs, and/or fail to meet their lofty goals.)

By your logic, Hitler must have been motivated by a sincere desire to make Germany great again for his grandchildren...or he sincerely and reasonably believed that the Jews were a threat to humanity and tried to exterminate them in an act of altruism, because only a "thirteen-year-old who thinks any nonsense is profound as long as it sounds grim enough" would believe that he was simply a man who wanted to be the most powerful man in his country, and for his country to be the most powerful country in the world, and who was prepared to do anything and everything to achieve that goal.
I see no reason to assume Hitler didn't believe that. He was, of course, incorrect, but that doesn't mean that he was motivated by power alone.

Keltest

2017-06-20, 10:09 PM

Power for its own sake is perfectly plausible, especially when that power takes the form of a galactic empire that has to obey your every whim. The ability to have that power whenever you decide you want something is as tempting as the ability to have what you already want.

Darth Paul

2017-06-20, 10:33 PM

My view of the chain of events is:

Palpatine and Mace trade accusations, confusing Anakin.
Palpatine loses his temper and attempts to lightning Mace, but has the silly thing in reverse. Meanwhile, he tempts Anakin with the knowledge that he can save Padme, reminding him that he must choose. Mace wants Anakin to resist temptation.

Palpatine then plays the pathetic old man, begging Anakin to save him from Mace, and claiming he is too weak to save himself.

Mace says he's going to end "this" once and for all- presumably by killing Palpatine. Anakin starts quoting Jedi principles. Mace knows the smartest thing is to just kill Palpatine, but the way he's doing it goes against his grain and he hesitates.

It's only when Anakin yells "I need him!" that Mace irrevocably decides to kill Palpatine; and that's when Anakin steps in and cuts Mace's hand off.

It was the knowledge that the Sith Lord was manipulating the Chosen One, and the Chosen One was embracing the Sith, that made Mace decide to kill at that point. Prior to that, the decision was based simply on "This man shoots frikkin' LIGHTNING out of his fingers, no jail can hold him... he's too dangerous to keep alive for trial." I didn't really see hatred at that time; just a determination.

Koo Rehtorb

2017-06-21, 01:09 AM

I don't know where people are getting the idea that killing is wrong in Star Wars. Good guys kill people by the dozen all the time. What matters in Star Wars is how you ~feel~ about it. It's entirely possible that Mace Windu made a strategic decision that capturing and imprisoning a Sith Master with that level of power was never actually going to work and a summary execution was required to protect the galaxy (a-ok by Star Wars standards). It's also entirely possible that he was motivated by anger and therefore it was totally not okay.

For another example, if Anakin had hacked up a sand person camp to rescue his mother that'd be fine. Anakin hacking up a sand person camp because he was pissed his mother had already died was badwrong.

People can certainly question how sensible this whole arrangement is, but that's just how it works in Star Wars.

Vinyadan

2017-06-21, 04:37 AM

Koo Rehtorb

2017-06-21, 05:05 AM

BTW... how is killing jedi children worse than killing Tusken children? Because, if it's the same, Anakin was supposed to have fallen long ago. And Yoda seemed very conscious of that. And they promoted Anakin to the Council?

I don't think it's worse so much as the Tuskens were a result of Anakin losing control, and he felt remorseful afterwards. The Jedi children were a result of him making a deliberate choice to turn to the dark side.

Kantaki

2017-06-21, 05:17 AM

Wasn't Anakin's seat on the Council due to Palpatine wanting a reliable contact/source/voice there?
Besides influencing Anakin I mean.
Hence the other members saying „Okay, you get the chair, but not the rank.“

hamishspence

2017-06-21, 06:27 AM

BTW... how is killing jedi children worse than killing Tusken children? Because, if it's the same, Anakin was supposed to have fallen long ago. And Yoda seemed very conscious of that.
Yoda sensed Anakin's anger and grief - but not what he was actually doing. Qui-Gon's "No, Anakin!" might have given him a clue - but not that Tusken innocents were being killed, only that he was acting in grief and anger.

They didn't question him very closely in the EU, after the fight on Geonosis. They may not have done so in the "newcanon-verse" either.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-21, 07:08 AM

I don't know where people are getting the idea that killing is wrong in Star Wars. Good guys kill people by the dozen all the time. What matters in Star Wars is how you ~feel~ about it.
Which is, incidentally, yet another reason to be suspicious of the Jedi's idea of right and wrong. Along with conscripting children, forbidding emotion, and condoning slavery.

Peelee

2017-06-21, 08:06 AM

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-21, 08:10 AM

Didn't conscript. Always had parental permission.
Well, I'll grant that that's slightly better, but the idea of taking children and training them to be warrior-monks, to only think in the ways that the Jedi deem appropriate, to have a career chosen for them before they grow out of the "I wanna be a cowboy" phase, sounds cultish at best.

Peelee

2017-06-21, 08:16 AM

Well, I'll grant that that's slightly better, but the idea of taking children and training them to be warrior-monks, to only think in the ways that the Jedi deem appropriate, to have a career chosen for them before they grow out of the "I wanna be a cowboy" phase, sounds cultish at best.

So say cultish instead. If there are multiple valid issues, then tossing a spurious one in there in lieu of a real one seems more than a bit silly, at best.

Sorry, I just have to bring up this gripe more often than you'd think.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-21, 08:57 AM

So say cultish instead. If there are multiple valid issues, then tossing a spurious one in there in lieu of a real one seems more than a bit silly, at best.
See, the thing is...I didn't realize there was parental consent involved, because I don't read Wookipedia much.

hamishspence

2017-06-21, 09:02 AM

In the movie we see Qui-Gon getting parental consent from Shmi, at least. However, in practice (although possibly not in law) Tatooine is outside the Republic.

The EU tended to flip-flop - some sources emphasised the Jedi getting consent - others suggested that this was technically not necessary, but the Jedi were trying to avoid bad PR by not insisting on their right to take Force-sensitive children of Republic citizens.

The age limit also varied - some said it was extremely rare for the Jedi to take children over 1 year old - others more often showed 3-4 year olds being taken frequently.

In the context of the newcanon - at least one planet - Bardotta - has had bad experiences with Jedi recruiters - growing to regard them as kidnappers. As a result, the Jedi had to tread extremely carefully with the Bardottas in the Season 6 arc focusing on them.

Emanick

2017-06-21, 09:10 AM

Which is, incidentally, yet another reason to be suspicious of the Jedi's idea of right and wrong. Along with conscripting children, forbidding emotion, and condoning slavery.

Wait, when did the Jedi condone slavery? I'm no Star Wars expert, but I thought Phantom Menace explicitly stated that slavery was outlawed across the Republic - and neither Qui-Gon nor Obi-Wan appeared to be okay with the situation on Tatooine.

Kish

2017-06-21, 09:16 AM

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

Vinyadan

2017-06-21, 09:29 AM

Anyway, I think that the best decision in SW history was the council forcing Obi Wan's: "Listen, my young, emotional, easily impressed, and slightly unstable pupil, could you please keep an eye on this shrew politician who is about four times your age and could waltz intrigue around any council member? Because I am sure that he will not seduce you to whatever evil plan he might have. It's not like you already are best buddies, and you have chosen him as a mentor over any Jedi (which btw might hurt me just a little bit, if I weren't a Jedi and therefore, well, you know, I'm hurt anyway, I'm just not showing it). I mean, it's not like gives you the stuff you want and we don't want you to have, or he just forced us to give you a position, which we did in such a way as to scorn you and make it clear that you are in debt with him, and offended by us. Yup, this is gonna be so smooth."

hamishspence

2017-06-21, 09:29 AM

Wait, when did the Jedi condone slavery?

The main case I've seen argued was - the clone army. Kamino pretty blatantly regards the clones it produces as property to be sold - and, by accepting the delivery of the clones, the Jedi and the Republic demonstrate an element of "condoning slavery" - especially since more clones are being ordered, and more payments being made - in TCW.

That said - also in TCW - when it comes to Separatists enslaving Republic citizens and handing them over to slave traders - the Jedi are real enthusiastic about invading the slave trader world of Zygerria and getting those citizens back.

A point was made in that arc (Season 4) that the last Zygerrian Slaver Empire was crushed by the Jedi centuries ago in an attempt to stop the slave trade, and that the old Sith Empire made heavy use of slavery (and that Sidious and Dooku are making overtures to the Zygerrians in order to ensure that slavery will thrive when Sidious turns the Republic into an Empire.)

Keltest

2017-06-21, 09:31 AM

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

In Phantom Menace, the Jedi are acting as government officials on a specific diplomatic mission and are currently outside their jurisdiction. In the longer term, they are beholden to the republic and its leaders, and the government would almost certainly not appreciate them picking a fight with the Hutts without going through them first.

Dr.Zero

2017-06-21, 09:32 AM

Really, the only parallel between Shojo and Palpatine is that arresting them might not have led to a conviction, and even that is questionable: The paladins are loyal, but not to the extent that loyalty trumps adherence to their code. If Shojo had the power to avoid arrest even if--as Miko alleged--he flagrantly violated their code, then he wouldn't have spent the past decades constantly maintaining his persona to avoid being seen violating that code.

Edit: "held back", not "head back"

Am I wrong, or the paladins in the Blue Cesspool weren't actually a police force with the right to arrest people?
I mean, I remember somewhere Hinjo saying that most of the citizens didn't even know that Sapphire Guard existed. IIRC, then it hardly seems like they can legally arrest anyone, specially if that "anyone" is actually who rules the city.

Emanick

2017-06-21, 09:37 AM

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, but it's obviously more complicated than that. There are, what, 2,000 Jedi? And how many planets exist in the galaxy? It seems unreasonable to expect them to solve literally every humanoid-rights atrocity in the galaxy, and/or to suggest that, by allowing any of said atrocities to continue, they implicitly condone them. Even if they wield significant influence over the Republic and its resources.

I pretty strongly disagree with the Jedi emphasis on emotional distance from family members, but given that it's a thing, it's not at all odd that they didn't go out of their way to free Anakin's mother, nor is it indicative of a tolerance for slavery. To the Jedi, she was just another oppressed being thousands of light-years away that they weren't being tasked with specifically rescuing. The Jedi don't really "tolerate" slavery anymore than we "tolerate" real-world faraway crises that we could probably solve if we put our mind to it, but that are hard to deal with and that we would have to redirect considerable resources toward to address positively.

Keltest

2017-06-21, 09:37 AM

Vinyadan

2017-06-21, 09:42 AM

Miko could arrest people (Belkar). (there's also a bonus strip somewhere about this, but I don't remember if it was a paladin). I think that people knew that there were paladins running around, and that they were government officials. They didn't know of the Sapphire Guard as a secret society bound on protecting the gates. But this is just my theory.

Kish

2017-06-21, 10:52 AM

It seems unreasonable to expect them to solve literally every humanoid-rights atrocity in the galaxy,
It does?

So what does "the guardians of peace and justice" mean? Is it anything more than posturing? Does it mean they pushed situations toward peace and justice, to the extremely limited extent an obscure monastic order could do so, as long as it didn't interfere with their other goals? (I would consider a "yes" answer to one of those two questions to require a "no" answer to the other, btw.)

I don't know for sure what group you mean with "we," but I do know that I would scoff at any member of any candidate group that claimed "we are the guardians of peace and justice."

Keltest

2017-06-21, 11:05 AM

It does?

So what does "the guardians of peace and justice" mean? Is it anything more than posturing? Does it mean they pushed situations toward peace and justice, to the extremely limited extent an obscure monastic order could do so, as long as it didn't interfere with their other goals? (I would consider a "yes" answer to one of those two questions to require a "no" answer to the other, btw.)

I don't know for sure what group you mean with "we," but I do know that I would scoff at any member of any candidate group that claimed "we are the guardians of peace and justice."

This sounds like you have awfully unrealistic expectations of them. They don't have a 'Toggle Peace Y/N" lever they can pull whenever somebody anywhere in the galaxy gets uppity. They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

But no, they should just be able to fix all the problems in the galaxy before tea.

Emanick

2017-06-21, 11:17 AM

This sounds like you have awfully unrealistic expectations of them. They don't have a 'Toggle Peace Y/N" lever they can pull whenever somebody anywhere in the galaxy gets uppity. They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

But no, they should just be able to fix all the problems in the galaxy before tea.

This, basically. It's pretty clear that the Jedi are far from perfect, but they shouldn't be held to unrealistic standards. They have limited resources and a massive jurisdiction to "sheriff" (or whatever verb you want to use), so while I don't think their role literally just amounts to posturing, I would agree (if that's what you think too, Kish?) that calling themselves the "guardians of peace and justice" is a bit of a grandiose claim that they certainly can't fully back up.

And by "we" I basically just meant "we members of global civilization, most of whom probably have at least a minimal amount of privilege since we have the resources and leisure to read webcomics and talk about them online in our spare time." It was meant to be kind of vague, since I meant it in a collective sense.

Dr.Zero

2017-06-21, 01:31 PM

Miko claims the rank of Samurai for Shojo on top of her rank in the Sapphire Guard, which implies that she has significant authority within the regular Azure City military structure. Depending on how Rich wanted to handle it, it could put her just below the nobles like Kubota in the civilian government as well in terms of what she can have done, though that isn't a given.

Its likely that other paladins held similar ranks within the military so that they were a part of the chain of command and could, say, order a squad of soldiers out to help them deal with a group of marauding goblins, without having to go through a bunch of red tape.

Miko could arrest people (Belkar). (there's also a bonus strip somewhere about this, but I don't remember if it was a paladin). I think that people knew that there were paladins running around, and that they were government officials. They didn't know of the Sapphire Guard as a secret society bound on protecting the gates. But this is just my theory.

Yes, my point was more that they might not have the right to arrest people for not adhering to the paladin code and specifically for violating sapphire guard code. (Which was what the text I quoted was talking about).

Keltest

2017-06-21, 01:33 PM

Yes, my point was more that they might not have the right to arrest people for not adhering to the paladin code and specifically for violating sapphire guard code. (Which was what the text I quoted was talking about).

Even if he didn't actually do anything illegal, they have reason to be suspicious enough of Shojo's actions and motives now that he would probably need to be removed from power and taken into custody until they can verify what has and has not been the truth. He almost certainly would not remain in command of the Guard even if they didn't have the power to remove him from the throne of Azure City.

Xyril

2017-06-21, 01:33 PM

Am I wrong, or the paladins in the Blue Cesspool weren't actually a police force with the right to arrest people?
I mean, I remember somewhere Hinjo saying that most of the citizens didn't even know that Sapphire Guard existed. IIRC, then it hardly seems like they can legally arrest anyone, specially if that "anyone" is actually who rules the city.

Well, that's two different questions. Legally, the Sapphire Guard has the right to arrest people if the sovereign of their state authorizes them to arrest people. I've been assuming that they have some arrest powers, since this whole thing started when Miko was sent to retrieve the Order, whether they wanted to come or not, but in a world that seems like it's basically lawless except when you're fairly close to centers of government, I suppose it's also plausible that Shojo sent Miko on an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, and Miko was both aware of this and satisfied that doing so didn't violate the Lawful in her Lawful Good code.

The fact that a police organization is secret--or at the very least, very little known--has no bearing on their legal police powers. Granted, expecting citizens to sit by and submit to arrest by a secret police is highly offensive to anyone who grew up in a modern liberal democracy, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. In fact, the situation existed in the United States, albeit to a lesser degree. Before the popularity of JAG and all the NCIS's, very few civilians knew that the armed services had their own criminal investigation services that could--under the right circumstances--assert jurisdiction over civilians. They weren't a government secret, strictly speaking, but it did lead to situation where people might be investigated or arrest by an agency they'd never heard of, and possibly subject to the same penalties for non-compliance as they would when dealing with a police agency everyone knows about. Also, we really don't know that the Sapphire Guard is a classified government secret either--it could be that they're just very low profile, acting as one of many semi-anonymous divisions within the larger police or military.

Xyril

2017-06-21, 01:36 PM

They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.

Counterpoint:
"You will restructure the health care law."
"I will restructure the health care law."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

Keltest

2017-06-21, 01:40 PM

Counterpoint:
"You will restructure the health care law."
"I will restructure the health care law."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."
"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

Which would work if the jedi could get themselves alone with a dictator of some sort who was also weak willed, but is not actually practical for any government that either values the life of its leader or fosters strong-willed, intelligent leaders. To say nothing of the various species that the mind trick outright wont work on.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-21, 01:41 PM

"Also, Grover Cleveland's birthday will be a national holiday."

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

Xyril

2017-06-21, 03:07 PM

Which would work if the jedi could get themselves alone with

Not an insurmountable problem given Jedi prowess.

a dictator of some sort who was also weak willed, but is not actually practical for any government that either values the life of its leader or fosters strong-willed, intelligent leaders

So you concede that it'll work on most governments?

I meant that as a joke, but when I think about it, it's probably true for the Star Wars galaxy. True, the Bail Organas of the galaxy submitted not because they were weak willed, or lacked the acumen to question the official narrative, but because they had no choice but to submit given the sheer volume of the forces arrayed against them. However, the galaxy never would have reached that point if the vast majority of leaders weren't the sort that could be manipulated, intimidated, or blinded by self interest.

Also, my impression from the EU is that the power of Force suggestion is limited by both the will-power of the victim, but also how much the suggestion conflicts with what they want to do. Perhaps a leader of average willpower wouldn't submit to a suggestion to implement drastic changes against his self-interest, but a few subtle nudges here or there might do a lot to service the interest of peace in the galaxy?

Xyril

2017-06-21, 03:08 PM

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

Every bar must serve double shots for the price of a single in honor of our two greatest Presidents, Grover Cleveland.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-21, 10:06 PM

In Phantom Menace, the Jedi are acting as government officials on a specific diplomatic mission and are currently outside their jurisdiction. In the longer term, they are beholden to the republic and its leaders, and the government would almost certainly not appreciate them picking a fight with the Hutts without going through them first.
If they were the only Republic officials or Jedi to ever visit Tatooine, they've got bigger problems than condoning slavery.

They have skills, government authority, and a generally good reputation going for them, but outside of the republic they aren't any more capable than most other lone actors at influencing the direction of entire planetary governments or cultures.
I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

Keltest

2017-06-21, 10:18 PM

If they were the only Republic officials or Jedi to ever visit Tatooine, they've got bigger problems than condoning slavery.

I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

Peelee

2017-06-21, 10:41 PM

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?

Jasdoif

2017-06-21, 11:07 PM

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?Wildly unknown? Unknowingly wild? That place with those other places?

Cazero

2017-06-22, 12:53 AM

goodpeople25

2017-06-22, 02:33 AM

Hey, it's not like there's wild space or unknown regions. What would they even call those, anyway?
Some type of terminology based on proximity to some central point perhaps? Since anything like that being in place already is just as ridiculous.

Not that I wish to be in the mid of innerStarwars conflict so I'm outer here. *rim-shot

Vinyadan

2017-06-22, 04:00 AM

I'm sorry, isn't that government the Galactic Republic? It seems like their governmental authority should have some influence over planets in the galaxy.

If it's like the USA, less than one third of the population of the Americas might be living there, and only cover 1/4 of their surface. The European Union right now covers less than half of European territory. Macedonia doesn't actually cover more than 1/3 of the region Macedonia. And so on and so on...

Lacuna Caster

2017-06-22, 04:29 AM

Which is, incidentally, yet another reason to be suspicious of the Jedi's idea of right and wrong. Along with conscripting children, forbidding emotion, and condoning slavery.

There's "not appearing to be okay with it" and then there's "doing anything to change it, ever, even in the specific case of Anakin's mother."

In Phantom Menace, the Jedi are acting as government officials on a specific diplomatic mission and are currently outside their jurisdiction. In the longer term, they are beholden to the republic and its leaders, and the government would almost certainly not appreciate them picking a fight with the Hutts without going through them first.
If what Koo Rehtorb is saying is correct, and the dark side is defined by feeling the wrong emotions, then the Jedi are objectively correct to practice emotional control. I don't see a way around that.

I do think it was kinda stupid to leave Shmi in a state of bondage, given it would have taken minimal effort to find an excuse to buy out her contract and it's probably wise to give your Chosen One as few distractions or complaints as possible, but... to be fair, she was already a free woman before she died- you can't blame slavery specifically for the tusken raids.

Well, that's two different questions. Legally, the Sapphire Guard has the right to arrest people if the sovereign of their state authorizes them to arrest people. I've been assuming that they have some arrest powers, since this whole thing started when Miko was sent to retrieve the Order, whether they wanted to come or not, but in a world that seems like it's basically lawless except when you're fairly close to centers of government, I suppose it's also plausible that Shojo sent Miko on an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, and Miko was both aware of this and satisfied that doing so didn't violate the Lawful in her Lawful Good code.
The legal niceties of jurisdiction there are rather strained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?6495-Order-of-the-Stick-November-II&p=292847#post292847)- even on religious-mandate grounds the north is under the auspices of a different pantheon- but of all the justifications for running an extrajudicial bag and grab mission, "these 6 dudes tugged at the fabric of reality and thus risked ending all life" seems very difficult to argue against. Which the Order, or more specifically Elan, were legitimately responsible for.

As for the whole argument about handling Shojo- I'm inclined to believe that the machiavellian puppet-master that Shojo is supposed to be* could probably have finagled his way out of a conviction, if he has the bluff-skill-mojo needed to convince the city he's senile for years on end. In which case the only realistic way to put him out of action was an impromptu execution. And while executing him was Fall-worthy, it would still have been Fall-worthy even if Shojo had been 100% guilty of everything Miko thought he was, given the code of conduct is pretty finicky about how you handle unarmed, unresisting targets. Something of a rock and a hard place there, gross-violation-wise.

* The version of Shojo that stays ignorant of the SG's crusades for several decades and thinks sending a single paladin with zero finesse and ambiguous orders to retrieve six lethally armed targets is a smart move? Probably less of a mastermind.

littlebum2002

2017-06-22, 08:38 AM

Peelee

2017-06-22, 09:04 AM

It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

To be fair, this applies to half the threads on here.

HerbieRAI

2017-06-22, 09:21 AM

Also, my impression from the EU is that the power of Force suggestion is limited by both the will-power of the victim, but also how much the suggestion conflicts with what they want to do. Perhaps a leader of average willpower wouldn't submit to a suggestion to implement drastic changes against his self-interest, but a few subtle nudges here or there might do a lot to service the interest of peace in the galaxy?

I'm not an expert, but it could also be limited on time. The mind trick may only work for a few minutes or hours before fading, leaving the victim wondering what they were thinking.

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-06-22, 09:29 AM

I hate when a thread goes completely off the rails but the OP leaves. It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi", because I'm enjoying this conversation but can never remember what thread it's in.

You'd be out of luck anyway: the OP is three months old, well past the point were you can change the title, which IIRC is like 20 days.

GW

Quebbster

2017-06-22, 10:34 AM

I hate when a thread goes completely off the rails but the OP leaves. It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi", because I'm enjoying this conversation but can never remember what thread it's in.
I just think "Jedi... Lightsabers... Oh right, the thread about the sword!"

Xyril

2017-06-22, 03:21 PM

I'm not an expert, but it could also be limited on time. The mind trick may only work for a few minutes or hours before fading, leaving the victim wondering what they were thinking.

That's a good point.

unbeliever536

2017-06-23, 02:14 AM

He should get two holidays, given that he's the only person to have ever been president of the USA twice.

GW

Aye, both birthdays.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-23, 09:25 AM

I hope you don't honestly believe that naming themselves the Galactic Republic is enough to grant them legitimate authority over every planet in the galaxy.

What are you babbling about? Of course the United States of America have legitimate authority over Brazil !

If it's like the USA, less than one third of the population of the Americas might be living there, and only cover 1/4 of their surface. The European Union right now covers less than half of European territory. Macedonia doesn't actually cover more than 1/3 of the region Macedonia. And so on and so on...
I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

Keltest

2017-06-23, 09:59 AM

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

Whether or not theyre trying, theyre obviously not succeeding. Tattoine is explicitly not part of the republic, to the point where their currency isn't even valuable there. To say nothing of the separatist movement in the second and third movies.

Kish

2017-06-23, 10:09 AM

More to the point, I'm fine with "the Jedi didn't have the power to do anything about slavery on Tatooine" as long as it's taken to its logical conclusion--i.e., Obi-Wan's thing about "the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice" is essentially posturing, for most of the galaxy the problem with the Empire was entirely about the active presence of the Empire and not the lack of presence of the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is being singularly self-absorbed when he ties the murder of the Jedi Order directly to "the dark times."

Keltest

2017-06-23, 10:13 AM

Peelee

2017-06-23, 10:17 AM

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy

Republic credits? Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real.

Imean, that was kind of a big plot point. If someone won't even take a government's money, and doesn't consider it terribly real, I'd think it's safe to assume that said government doesn't really have any authority in that area, at the very least, and likely in a much larger surrounding area.

ETA:
The Republic doesn't exist out here. We must survive on our own.

Two characters saying point blank "the Republic has no authority here" in one of the movies. Honestly, if you didn't see anything to suggest the Galactic Republic didn't exert its authority over the entire galaxy, you weren't really paying attention. That the Jedi and a fourteen-year-old queen didn't know just really confirms how the Republic mostly ignores some deep Outer Rim sectors.

pendell

2017-06-23, 02:47 PM

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Galactic Republic didn't at least try to maintain authority over the entire galaxy; the same doesn't apply to the EU or any but the craziest parts of the USA. The name thing was just a snappy way of pointing that out.

Okay, how does the Galactic Republic maintain authority? It's navy, to the extent it has one, is vestigial. Suitable for police actions, but Star Destroyers and the potential for solar conquest just flat doesn't exist before the Clone Wars. It's one of the reasons the Empire came into existence.

So the tools the Republic has are : 1) Jedi Knights and 2) Trade Embargo. There's not much they can do about their own home planet, but if you want to trade with the core, with Corellia and Kuat and Coruscant, you've got to play by their rules.

That would have no effect on Tatooine. It isn't a large market, and such market as it does have is already illegal anyway; putting the planet under embargo would have almost no effect whatsoever.

As towards Jedi knights -- well, that's all very well if the problem is a single black-caped Dark Lord in need of a lightsaber haircut. Or it could also work out if you had several factions that need a mediator. But when you've got a planetwide problem and a planetwide culture? One that you can't just slice in two with a lightsaber?

It's not going to work. And if the Jedi really did get involved in solving every planet's social ills , they'd spend all their time on nothing but , say, hunting down slavers in the middle of the Dune Sea, and is that really the best use of their time and energy?

No, it makes sense for the Republic to primarily let its own members sort out their internal problems, and send out the Jedi primarily when there's friction between Republic members (say, between Naboo and the Trade Defeation) , and not send them out to remake every planet in Coruscant's image. Not only is that a lot of time and energy, there's also a chance it will make things worse instead of better. Again, standardization and conformity was something the Empire was much, much larger on and the galaxy was not better for the change.

===

Thinking about it, while the Republic may claim to be galactic wide (and that's probably true, to the extent that member planets are probably spread throughout the galaxy) that does not mean that it claims sovereignty over every planet with intelligent life in the galaxy. I suspect it cannot coerce planets into joining, only invite them. And they probably don't invite every planet; there are probably some membership requirements in terms of sapient rights and technology, which Tatooine and similar planets do not meet and have no interest in doing so.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

hamishspence

2017-06-23, 03:06 PM

From Star Wars Backstories: Darth Vader (newcanon book)

It is uncertain where Anakin was born. Some records say Anakin was born on Tatooine; other sources say Anakin and his mother, Shmi Skywalker, arrived on the remote planet of Tatooine when Anakin was very young.
Even though the Republic had outlawed slavery, Tatooine was in the galaxy's Outer Rim. On the distant planets, laws were difficult to enforce. The idea that "might makes right" was the law in these lands.

The implication is that it's nominally in the Republic, but because it's so far away, in practice, gangsters rule over it. "It's controlled by the Hutts" "The Hutts are gangsters" as TPM puts it.

GreatWyrmGold

2017-06-23, 04:26 PM

I'd like to start by noting three points.
1. I said that it seemed like the Republic was trying to maintain authority over the entire galaxy, not that it succeeded. Those are two different things.
2. The fact that ending slavery on Tatooine was apparently not a priority for the Republic (or the Jedi) does not speak well of either. The fact that slavery seems nonexistent under the Empire (from what little we see of it) speaks even worse of the Republic.
3. It's been over a decade since I've seen the prequels. So if I miss a few details here and there, cut me a f*ing break, you fanboys! Not everyone has goshdang encyclopedic knowledge of every line and event in the effing prequels! The HFIL is wrong with you people? "Here's a single random line from a part of the movie that you forgot! You are an idiot for not accounting for it in your analysis!"

Okay, how does the Galactic Republic maintain authority? It's navy, to the extent it has one, is vestigial. Suitable for police actions, but Star Destroyers and the potential for solar conquest just flat doesn't exist before the Clone Wars. It's one of the reasons the Empire came into existence. So the tools the Republic has are : 1) Jedi Knights and 2) Trade Embargo.
Not to put it too bluntly, but...that's kind of a problem in and of itself. I get it, autocracy is wrong, but at least it's not quite as miserable as anarchy. The United Nations has more enforcement power than that, and that's generally considered to be too weak to serve as a government (part of why national governments still exist). If the Galactic Republic was a federation of sub-galactic nations which usually enforce peace successfully, that would be fine, but the only notable government we see evidence of on a level between planet and Republic is the Trade Federation, a glorified megacorporation. (Unless, of course, I've forgotten another minor line, in which case feel free to rake me over the coals for not remembering every detail of a movie I saw when I was six or so.)

Peelee

2017-06-23, 04:31 PM

pendell

2017-06-23, 05:18 PM

2. The fact that ending slavery on Tatooine was apparently not a priority for the Republic (or the Jedi) does not speak well of either. The fact that slavery seems nonexistent under the Empire (from what little we see of it) speaks even worse of the Republic.

??? We know slaves still existed on Tatooine in the time of Jabba the Hutt, since he kept slave dancing girls and even fed them to his pet Rancor if he wasn't happy with them. The fact that Owen and Beru didn't keep slaves speaks well of them -- but their family wasn't keeping slaves in the prequel trilogy either, and slavery was most definitely an issue then.

Off-film, "wookiee slaves" were a tremendous part of the old EU, and I don't think that was ever retconned away.

In the Ep. III novelization, there is a window into Count Dooku's mindset , which is that it is not at all a coincidence that almost all of the Seperatists were nonhumans such as the Trade Federation and Geonosis. Part of the Sith's plan was to use the clone wars to crush their power and establish a human-dominated Empire. The Empire in the time of the OT was a New Order in which humans were the Ubermensch of a Nazi-like regime and aliens were second-class citizens at best. I don't believe slavery was spelled out in the OT nearly as strongly as it was in the prequels, but I find it hard to believe it didn't exist. Life under the Empire was better for humans living in the Core and much, much worse for everyone else.

Not to put it too bluntly, but...that's kind of a problem in and of itself. I get it, autocracy is wrong, but at least it's not quite as miserable as anarchy. The United Nations has more enforcement power than that, and that's generally considered to be too weak to serve as a government (part of why national governments still exist). If the Galactic Republic was a federation of sub-galactic nations which usually enforce peace successfully, that would be fine, but the only notable government we see evidence of on a level between planet and Republic is the Trade Federation, a glorified megacorporation. (Unless, of course, I've forgotten another minor line, in which case feel free to rake me over the coals for not remembering every detail of a movie I saw when I was six or so.)

I think the Republic has been modeled on the US under the old Articles of Confederation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation). The central government had a great deal less power to make war and levy taxation than it did under the constitution. It appears that the Republic is a fairy-tale nation whose lack of military power and central government is supposed to be made up for by the existence of Jedi wizards.

Respectfully,

Brian P.