Dragonfire Adept and Breath Weapon Feats

[tedcahill2]

A few weeks ago I was reading a guide on the dragonfire adept (can't remember where I came across it, but it was on this forum). One of the optimizations they were detailing in the guide was breath weapon feats (from the Draconomicon I think). These feats require you to have a breath weapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds (i.e. 1d4 rounds like many dragons).

The guide had some examples of how to achieve this, a feat called power surge, templates that give breath weapons, etc. I was thinking about this guide just now and I realized something; If you have a breathweapon that you can use every round, doesn't that mean your breathweapon has a cooldown of 0 rounds? In other words, you already have a breathweapon with a cooldown expressed in rounds, it just happens to be 0 rounds?

The books aren't going to waste text on quantify a 0 round cool down, but for all intents and purposes a breathweapon with no cooldown has a 0 rounds cooldown, right? So dragonfire adepts are free to take breath weapon feats.

[ComaVision]

No. There is no CD. If you had a source of extra actions (say Factotum 8/DFA 1) you could breath twice in a turn.

However, that is a reasonable house-rule.

[tedcahill2]

No. There is no CD. If you had a source of extra actions (say Factotum 8/DFA 1) you could breath twice in a turn.

However, that is a reasonable house-rule.

I don't think we're saying different things. Having no cooldown = 0 rounds cooldown.

[Segev]

As long as the metabreath feat's cooldown extension is an addition of more rounds, not a multiplication of currently-applied rounds, it probably works out balanced well enough to use. As to RAW-legal...that's debatable enough that it's not worth debating if you're talking about a build for an actual game. Discuss it with your DM.

[tedcahill2]

As long as the metabreath feat's cooldown extension is an addition of more rounds, not a multiplication of currently-applied rounds, it probably works out balanced well enough to use. As to RAW-legal...that's debatable enough that it's not worth debating if you're talking about a build for an actual game. Discuss it with your DM.

Meta breath is like meta magic. Maximize breath for example, adds 4 rounds to your breath weapons cooldown.

[Khedrac]

I don't think we're saying different things. Having no cooldown = 0 rounds cooldown.
The problem is that the reqirement is not to have a breath weapon with a recharge time of N rounds but to have one expressed in rounds.

So if the recharge time is stated as "10 rounds (1 minute)" it is expressed in rounds and qualifies for the feat, while if it is "1 minute" it does not.
Because the DFA's breath weapon does not have a statement about recharge time (because it does not have one) it is not "expressed in rounds" and is not eligible for the feats 'as is'.

Edit: some justification for saying "no":
Consider a level 1 DFA - breath weapon does 1d6 damage.
If you allow metabreath feats as is add the feat entangling exhalation
The breath now does 1d6/2 + 1d6 per round for 1d4 rounds as well as entangling any who take damage! The modified breath is significantly more damage as well as getting a rider effect when the user is clearly (RAI) supposed to be swapping damage for the entangling effect.
Forcing a DFA to take other feats to qualify forces them to wait until the breath has a higher base damage and the actual purpose of the feat is closer to being met.

Edit 2:

That's a rather poor example as it's entirely irrelevant. Entangling Exhalation is not a metabreath feat and does not require a recharge time. All you need are a breath weapon and the Dragonblood subtype. You should try to make your unbalanced argument with a valid feat.
I had forgotten that Entangling Exhalation did not have that restriction. This does a nice job of demolishing my example. I still think EE is way overpowered for a level 1 DFA though, but the other meta-breath feats? - probably less so.

[Segev]

Oh, there's plenty of justification for saying "no." There's also plenty for saying "yes." How you weigh them is up to you(r DM).

I think, in situations like this, a better question is: are they balanced?

I think they are, personally.

[tedcahill2]

The problem is that the reqirement is not to have a breath weapon with a recharge time of N rounds but to have one expressed in rounds.

So if the recharge time is stated as "10 rounds (1 minute)" it is expressed in rounds and qualifies for the feat, while if it is "1 minute" it does not.
Because the DFA's breath weapon does not have a statement about recharge time (because it does not have one) it is not "expressed in rounds" and is not eligible for the feats 'as is'.

Edit: some justification for saying "no":
Consider a level 1 DFA - breath weapon does 1d6 damage.
If you allow metabreath feats as is add the feat entangling exhalation
The breath now does 1d6/2 + 1d6 per round for 1d4 rounds as well as entangling any who take damage! The modified breath is significantly more damage as well as getting a rider effect when the user is clearly (RAI) supposed to be swapping damage for the entangling effect.
Forcing a DFA to take other feats to qualify forces them to wait until the breath has a higher base damage and the actual purpose of the feat is closer to being met.

This is a good point, one that I hadn't considered. I had home brewed my own solution, the sorcerer in my sig, which based on this still holds as a better option than allowing the feats from level 1.

[WhamBamSam]

The phrasing as I recall (on my phone at the moment) is something to the effect of "a breath weapon with a recharge time expressed in rounds" so the phrasing matters. Once every 10 rounds would qualify, but once every minute would not, as an example. So the fact that the non-cooldown isn't written as a cooldown of 0 rounds matters by strict RAW.

EDIT: Swordsage'd it would seem.

[Celestia]

The problem is that the reqirement is not to have a breath weapon with a recharge time of N rounds but to have one expressed in rounds.

So if the recharge time is stated as "10 rounds (1 minute)" it is expressed in rounds and qualifies for the feat, while if it is "1 minute" it does not.
Because the DFA's breath weapon does not have a statement about recharge time (because it does not have one) it is not "expressed in rounds" and is not eligible for the feats 'as is'.

Edit: some justification for saying "no":
Consider a level 1 DFA - breath weapon does 1d6 damage.
If you allow metabreath feats as is add the feat entangling exhalation
The breath now does 1d6/2 + 1d6 per round for 1d4 rounds as well as entangling any who take damage! The modified breath is significantly more damage as well as getting a rider effect when the user is clearly (RAI) supposed to be swapping damage for the entangling effect.
Forcing a DFA to take other feats to qualify forces them to wait until the breath has a higher base damage and the actual purpose of the feat is closer to being met.
That's a rather poor example as it's entirely irrelevant. Entangling Exhalation is not a metabreath feat and does not require a recharge time. All you need are a breath weapon and the Dragonblood subtype. You should try to make your unbalanced argument with a valid feat.

[Thurbane]

The common workaround to get meta-breath feats on a DFA is to become a Dragonborn.

[Necroticplague]

The books aren't going to waste text on quantify a 0 round cool down, but for all intents and purposes a breathweapon with no cooldown has a 0 rounds cooldown, right? So dragonfire adepts are free to take breath weapon feats.

No, that's not remotely how that works. Not having any of something is very different from having 0 of something. A creature with 0 CON is dead, a creature without CON isn't alive. Just like how slapping a headband of intelligence doesn't suddenly give a skeleton INT 2, adding two rounds to the cooldown time of an ability that doesn't have a cooldown doesn't suddenly give you a two round cooldown.

[SangoProduction]

No, that's not remotely how that works. Not having any of something is very different from having 0 of something. A creature with 0 CON is dead, a creature without CON isn't alive. Just like how slapping a headband of intelligence doesn't suddenly give a skeleton INT 2, adding two rounds to the cooldown time of an ability that doesn't have a cooldown doesn't suddenly give you a two round cooldown.

oooo. By the logic, DFA breath weapons can have all the metabreath feats without any cooldowns, just so long as you get a breath weapon with a cooldown to qualify to take the feats. I'm going to see if that logic will fly with my DM.

[Necroticplague]

oooo. By the logic, DFA breath weapons can have all the metabreath feats without any cooldowns, just so long as you get a breath weapon with a cooldown to qualify to take the feats. I'm going to see if that logic will fly with my DM.

Honestly, I always thought it was a hard enough sell to pass 'applying metabreath feats to breath weapon that doesn't qualify because you have one that does'.

[SangoProduction]

Honestly, I always thought it was a hard enough sell to pass 'applying metabreath feats to breath weapon that doesn't qualify because you have one that does'.

There is no requirement on the use of the feats, only the acquisition. So, once you get it, it can apply to any breath weapon. In the same way that if a feat requires Weapon Focus, you aren't restricted to the weapon of your focus when using the feat...unless it says so.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Power Surge is actually a fantastic feat to get, considering it only adds one round to the time you have to wait between breaths, so you can still use it every round. That gives either +1 DC, +1 damage per die, or +50% duration. That duration increase can apply to Entangling Exhalation or Clinging Breath, otherwise the +1 damage per die is probably the best use of it.

[tedcahill2]

Power Surge is actually a fantastic feat to get, considering it only adds one round to the time you have to wait between breaths, so you can still use it every round. That gives either +1 DC, +1 damage per die, or +50% duration. That duration increase can apply to Entangling Exhalation or Clinging Breath, otherwise the +1 damage per die is probably the best use of it.

If it adds one round, you can't use it every round. Breath, wait, breath.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it adds one round, you can't use it every round. Breath, wait, breath.

Every 1 round would be every round. Every 2 rounds would be every other round.

[SangoProduction]

Every 1 round would be every round. Every 2 rounds would be every other round.

/facepalm

It adds one round.........of waiting.

[Segev]

Yeah, the recharge time is added to how many rounds you have to wait between breaths. If you normally have to wait 0 rounds (and thus can do it every round), and the metabreath feat adds 1 round to your wait time, you now have to wait 1 round (and thus could do it every other round).