Still, uh... still goin through the mountain pass, huh? [Archive]

Aedilred

2017-03-09, 06:21 PM

Fair! Fair! I have loved the story for years, and my very sincere feeling that this portion of the story is way way too slow and boring doesn't detract from the parts that I love - nor is it likely to negatively color my overall experience in retrospect, years from now.

Rich IS awesome, OOtS IS awesome, and this arc IS interminable.

I was going to say that it seems like it's strung out a bit, but that's not quite right: it just feels like an obstacle parked in the way of where everyone wants to go. Having established a ticking clock and sense of urgency about Xykon "solving" Kraagor's Gate well over a hundred strips ago, and then given us another ticking time-bomb with Durkon's takeover of the dwarf council, it's hard to get that excited about a scrap with some frost giants. And when things seem to be contrived to make that fight unnecessarily difficult, with a mutiny on the ship, Roy losing his sword, and so on, I'm finding it increasingly hard to care. These strips aren't even particularly funny.

I'm not really getting any suspense from this sequence so much as I feel like I'm watching the Poochie episode of Itchy and Scratchy: when are they going to get to the fireworks factory?!"

Fundament

2017-03-09, 06:26 PM

I was going to say that it seems like it's strung out a bit, but that's not quite right: it just feels like an obstacle parked in the way of where everyone wants to go. Having established a ticking clock and sense of urgency about Xykon "solving" Girard's Gate well over a hundred strips ago, and then given us another ticking time-bomb with Durkon's takeover of the dwarf council, it's hard to get that excited about a scrap with some frost giants. [/i]

Yeah, that's true. I also just haven't ever engaged with the politics on the Mechane, the mutiny has felt telegraphed for a long time and now it's happening but not in a way which is surprising me (so far), and moreover it feels like I'm expected to be really invested in Andi and I am not.

"Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?"

Kish

2017-03-09, 06:34 PM

I am very certain you are not supposed to be invested in Andi, a little or a lot, and that they are in the process of saving the world, literally fighting against enemies who are attempting to make sure it ends.

I will say that looking at it in terms of the amount of real-time that's passed is not the approach Rich is taking. Number of strips matters. Amount of in-comic time that passes matters. But he's focused on what it will look like when the compilation book comes out, not what it looks like for people who read each page of the webcomic; five strips are going to be the same five strips, covering the same events, whether it turns out that it takes him five days or three months to draw them.

Aedilred

2017-03-09, 06:35 PM

Yeah, that's true. I also just haven't ever engaged with the politics on the Mechane, the mutiny has felt telegraphed for a long time and now it's happening but not in a way which is surprising me (so far), and moreover it feels like I'm expected to be really invested in Andi and I am not.

"Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?"

I don't know if we're meant to be invested in Andi, but without any investment in either Andi or Bandana the mutiny plot is very flat. And I don't really have any investment in either character. I think Bandana is a pretty popular character, so I guess some people are getting something out of this, but I've never found her particularly interesting.

I will say that looking at it in terms of the amount of real-time that's passed is not the approach Rich is taking. Number of strips matters. Amount of in-comic time that passes matters. But he's focused on what it will look like when the compilation book comes out, not what it looks like for people who read each page of the webcomic; five strips are going to be the same five strips, covering the same events, whether it turns out that it takes him five days or three months to draw them.
But then this is makes me wonder. Is this a webcomic, or is it a print comic that's published online one page at a time?

Fundament

2017-03-09, 06:45 PM

I will say that looking at it in terms of the amount of real-time that's passed is not the approach Rich is taking. Number of strips matters. Amount of in-comic time that passes matters.

I am not criticizing Rich, just characterizing my own experience of this moment in OotS.

I also think too much in-comic time and too much digital ink has been spent on this.

Jasdoif

2017-03-09, 06:58 PM

Is this a webcomic, or is it a print comic that's published online one page at a time?Answer: Yes.

What's your impression of the webcomic as medium? How do you see it as different from traditional paper comics, both in advantageous and disadvantageous ways?Honestly, at this point, it's nothing but a distribution method. The two main advantages it has are unlimited reach and the archive—I don't have to worry about getting books into stores just for people to discover them and I can write complex stories that call build on previous continuity without worrying that people won't have access to the older material. The main disadvantage is that they are difficult to monetize. Less than 5% of the people who read OOTS buy any given compilation book; the original stories fare better, but On the Origin of PCs is the best selling book I've ever done and it still tops out at about 10% of the regular audience.

Related, do you think that Order of the Stick ever loses something in being committed to print?OOTS in particular? No, not really, because I've been planning for print ever since the first book was published. I suppose you could say that it loses the ability for me to do something really unique with the digital medium, like animation or sound or whatever, but I don't have the skills to pull those off anyway. For example, Homestuck is an incredible use of the web medium, but since I couldn't do something like that anyway I don't think I'm losing out by going to print. My professional background is as a print designer anyway; it's what I'm comfortable with.

SaintRidley

2017-03-09, 07:01 PM

But then this is makes me wonder. Is this a webcomic, or is it a print comic that's published online one page at a time?

Both. There have been times where Rich really plays with the possibilities the internet presents for formatting, and print publication has either successfully (Orb spell knocking Haley out of the page) or unsuccessfully (Roy falling to death) translated that in a way that preserves the integrity of the page. Roy falling to his death is something that is definitively better experienced online - the book just can't convey it right.

edit - Oh, look, a helpful banana. That asking Rich questions thread was a delight, and I'd love to sit down to coffee with him some time and really dig into discussion of comic as medium.

NerdyKris

2017-03-09, 08:54 PM

Kish

2017-03-09, 08:59 PM

Yeah, there's also the immediate self-contradiction in, "I'm not criticizing its speed, I'm just saying it's taking too long."

I can also say that no one is concerned about Xykon solving Girard's Gate, or has been for 168 strips.

Keltest

2017-03-09, 09:47 PM

Regardless of the time investment or strips involved in the literal pass, we've had more than a dozen (near) consecutive strips of nothing but things getting worse and worse. The stakes are already as high as they are going to be, so I would kind of like to see some progress made on the existing problems without recycling old plots in an attempt to create more tension. What is especially annoying at this point is that the Order is supposed to be fairly competent, and yet they have managed to split the party (again), lose Roy's weapon (again) and get out-fought by an encounter they should have been able to beat with a little organization and planning (again).

Jasdoif

2017-03-09, 09:49 PM

....and get out-fought by an encounter they should have been able to beat with a little organization and planning (again).What type of planning are you thinking they should have done?

Aedilred

2017-03-09, 09:55 PM

I think there is a small but identifiable difference between criticising the update schedule, and, accepting that the updates happen roughly as frequently as they do, criticising the pacing of the strips published on that schedule. The former is complaining that updates should be more frequent, the latter is saying that the strip pacing should take account of the known frequency of the updates.

To reach for an infamous example, Thunt's followers are very tolerant of the slow update pace of Goblins. But you would be hard pressed to find one who didn't agree that the 18-page, multi-month battle scene in Book 3 that served no plot purpose was anything but self-indulgent and poorly conceived given the format. And that was when the comic was still updating something like once a week. More recent comics have been thinner on the ground but have tended to do more to progress things, so they don't feel as interminable as they otherwise might.

For me, at least, the format is a relatively minor part of why I wish this sequence could accelerate a bit. I just don't find it interesting and want to put it behind us so we can get onto something more entertaining that feels like it's going somewhere. I also agree with Keltest; this feels like it's trying to turn up the tension when we're already at max, so it's falling flat. I'd feel the same in the print edition or the archives, but at least there I could skip past it quickly.

I can also say that no one is concerned about Xykon solving Girard's Gate, or has been for 168 strips.
Probably because Roy blew it up.

Keltest

2017-03-09, 09:57 PM

What type of planning are you thinking they should have done?

Off hand, they could have grabbed Belkar or Roy, who as far as they knew were generally unoccupied, or at least not occupied with anything more important than taking out the giant spellcasters. Haley literally charged in, as a rogue, to get an attack off. They even literally call out that the giants knew they were coming, and they still blunder into their preparations.

Jasdoif

2017-03-09, 10:10 PM

Off hand, they could have grabbed Belkar or Roy, who as far as they knew were generally unoccupied, or at least not occupied with anything more important than taking out the giant spellcasters.Hmm. It just occurred to me that if Belkar hadn't jumped off the Mechane, all the giant boarders would have been dead well before now....

AchtungNight

2017-03-09, 11:34 PM

I too am dismayed by the pace of the comic currently, but I will say this- Rich did surprise me with the ending of 1067. I was expecting some joke along the lines of:

Bandanna- We will never clear that mountain! The ship's carrying too much weight!

[Andi grimaces, wondering if Bandanna's right. Just then, Roy knocks a giant overboard and the Mechane rises several feet in the air]

Andi: Hah!

What we got was a lot more morbid. I am seriously beginning to question whether the author wants the good guys to win this conflict as much as I do. Not a nice feeling. Hope Rich changes my mind in a good way again soon- he has before, but sadly not in a long time. :(

Turning a beloved character evil is not character development! Especially not when that character's evil side has serious plot armor and takes over the plot from the cooler more interesting bad guys! Come Back Real Durkon! I pray for the day!

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-10, 12:07 AM

Before the inevitable thread-locking comes along, sure, on some base level I agree with the frustration over the pace of the story unfolding. The Order have been inching their way though this single battle since the end of August, or over six months now, with no end in sight and just a perpetual stream of new misfortunes.

If this is about the Kickstarter demands and so forth, I'd be perfectly fine with some sort of explicit hiatus period (at a point in the narrative that makes sense) if it would result in more regular updates before and afterwards. Right now, I look on with envy at other webcomics where the readers get to see something new every weekday, whereas we spin our wheels on the interwebs for two weeks at a time.

But you know what? We really have no choice. It's going to get published at the rate the author chooses to make it available. I just hope that his pacing doesn't bore many people into losing interest online, because that could very well tank the sales side of the business through accumulated reader apathy.

georgie_leech

2017-03-10, 12:24 AM

If this is about the Kickstarter demands and so forth, I'd be perfectly fine with some sort of explicit hiatus period (at a point in the narrative that makes sense) if it would result in more regular updates before and afterwards. Right now, I look on with envy at other webcomics where the readers get to see something new every weekday, whereas we spin our wheels on the interwebs for two weeks at a time.

Don't worry about the green tinge over there, that's just the Prequel (http://www.prequeladventure.com/) fanbase busy writhing in envy. :smalltongue:

snowblizz

2017-03-10, 03:57 AM

"Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?"

The thing is, that is not and never has been the plot* of the comic. The comic is a character driven story, and as such focuses on what the chracters do and think and react to stuff, and how they grow or not as characters in the face of stuff happening.

Also, hurrying on with the "plot" means this will end sooner. I'd prefer it didn't, thanks.

*I'm not sure if this is the word I'm looking for, or if I correctly understand it's meaning, the Macguffin thing, Gates, Xykon etc are not central to the comic. They are a backdrop to the characters. If we never resolve the whole gate thing that would be perfectly fine too. In the sense that the story is over even though the suppsoed "plot" was never resolved.

Spellbreaker26

2017-03-10, 04:30 AM

I don't know if we're meant to be invested in Andi, but without any investment in either Andi or Bandana the mutiny plot is very flat. And I don't really have any investment in either character. I think Bandana is a pretty popular character, so I guess some people are getting something out of this, but I've never found her particularly interesting.

I basically agree with all of this, but for one point - I would be very surprised to find out if Bandana was popular.

Kish

2017-03-10, 06:41 AM

Hmm. It just occurred to me that if Belkar hadn't jumped off the Mechane, all the giant boarders would have been dead well before now....
The flip side of which is, if all the Order had jumped off the Mechane, the Mechane would be in pieces and all the crew would be dead by now, leaving the Order stranded in the pass. So the planning Keltest wants them to have done would have had far worse results than its absence did.

Jaxzan Proditor

2017-03-10, 07:22 AM

Personally I've actually been enjoying this subplot, or whatever you'll call it. And judging by the fairly large response from the forum in the discussion thread, I'd say most people are actually engaging pretty strongly with it, although for very different reasons perhaps. Either way, I'm sure that when all is said and done, this plot will wind up like the end of Book 5, which seemed interminable at the time, but now seems to flow fine.

Riftwolf

2017-03-10, 07:49 AM

ScaredHobgoblin

2017-03-10, 07:54 AM

Whilst I enjoy the dialogue and interaction between the characters, I will say the location isn't all that interesting. There's only so much you can show or use as a backdrop on a single vehicle going through a mountain pass. It gets very boring visually very quick, but Rich's writing skills continues to make it interesting!

Aedilred

2017-03-10, 08:00 AM

Just a quick thought; did people complain this much about the starmetal quest which served no plot purpose and turned out to be a complete waste of time because Miko dragged them off somewhere else anyway?

I don't know, but that was a very different time in the comic. We hadn't been told that it was desperately urgent that the Order get somewhere to stop someone from destroying the world as quickly as possible, in order that they could then go on somewhere else and stop someone else from destroying the world, and then found ourselves stalled while they fight some random mooks and two secondary/tertiary characters talk out their issues. The gates plot hadn't really been properly established, and it was also still updating two or three times a week, so even if the strips themselves were slow the plot moved along briskly in real time. So I imagine there was probably less complaining.

As I say, the speed of updates isn't the issue; it's the former part that is really the problem for me. Having been repeatedly told that the stakes are really high, there's nowhere for things to escalate to. Which is fine, because it meant the earlier scenes did their job, but it also means that there's a limit to how long you can string things out for or attempt to escalate them further before you start to lose patience.

Keltest

2017-03-10, 08:16 AM

The flip side of which is, if all the Order had jumped off the Mechane, the Mechane would be in pieces and all the crew would be dead by now, leaving the Order stranded in the pass. So the planning Keltest wants them to have done would have had far worse results than its absence did.

I did say they could have grabbed Belkar instead of Roy, especially since Belkar was already on the ground there killing giants.

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-10, 09:08 AM

Just a quick thought; did people complain this much about the starmetal quest which served no plot purpose and turned out to be a complete waste of time because Miko dragged them off somewhere else anyway?
Star metal quest served no plot purpose? I think it did.
First off the star metal was the stuff to reforge Roy's sword. (With an obvious hint at LoTR and reforging Narsil as Anduril ... see also allusions to Excalibur being perhaps "star metal" in some takes on the Arthurian legend)

I recall from Rich the point of the battle with the dragon being a place in the story where he offered some V spotlight. In the notes to the book he goes into more detail.

And he also wanted to Get Them Out of the Dungeon.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-10, 09:26 AM

Star metal quest served no plot purpose? I think it did.
First off the star metal was the stuff to reforge Roy's sword. (With an obvious hint at LoTR and reforging Narsil as Anduril ... see also allusions to Excalibur being perhaps "star metal" in some takes on the Arthurian legend)

I recall from Rich the point of the battle with the dragon being a place in the story where he offered some V spotlight. In the notes to the book he goes into more detail.

And he also wanted to Get Them Out of the Dungeon.

That too -- the quest for the starmetal was when Vaarsuvius disintegrated the black dragon, drawing the wrath of its parent later on and leading to the deal with the IFCC, the use of Familicide, and the loss of the entire Draketooth clan at their pyramid in the desert. So yes, it had a lot of repercussions and was integral to later plot points, including the fact that the starmetal in the sword grants Roy the powers he just manifested and makes the weapon important enough to be a major loss when it drops into an icy mountain range.

The current arc might turn out to have similar repercussions down the road, but at this point, the frost giant battle just seems to be intended to throw as many new obstacles in the Order's way as (in)humanly possible instead of actually achieving any real progress towards the Order's goals. I also don't think it can lead to much in the way of new events down-the-road, unlike the starmetal quest. By now, the webcomic's trajectory as a whole is getting to a point where long-stewing plot points need to start getting resolved, instead of whole new ones being introduced, simply due to there being less and less space remaining in which to develop them.

NerdyKris

2017-03-10, 09:44 AM

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-10, 10:42 AM

I don't know why people are assuming this is just some annoying speed bump. It's clearly going somewhere. There's no reason Rich would just say "Yeah, I'm gonna spend 20 strips just slowing the Order down instead of just saying it takes X amount of time for them to reach their destination, given that I never gave a specific distance for the dwarven lands". Obviously, there's a point to their current predicament. Possibly to meet someone who lives in that pass? Maybe a certain halfing? Or getting the frost giants on their side after they discover what the high priest's real motives are?

Oh, it's absolutely going to have repercussions, but 17 or so strips and six months into the battle all it seems to be coming up with is pure misfortune for the Order escalating to outright absurdity. It's showing no signs of actually heading to any sort of resolution and is getting to the point that the Order may need a deus ex machina to escape to actually continue their mission and save the world.

I sure hope the Order encounters Serini face-to-face; all they've seen of the Scribblers so far has been Girard's pre-recorded illusion and the only survivors who saw Soon's ghost are Xykon, Redcloak and O-Chul. Lirian and Dorukan are bound in Xykon's gem and probably can't be released until he is destroyed, and Kraagor is in Snarl-oblivion. Being elderly by this point, though, I doubt Serini has made the hike deep into the mountains and away from her stronghold, although clearly she designed Kraagor's Tomb to function well without her and, if she didn't leave the area of the North Pole, she would presumably be dead by now.

The frost giants don't seem to care about their leaders' motives; all they know is "Lord Thrym commands it" and that's apparently all they ever need. Anyone at that level of religious devotion in this webcomic has uniformly turned out to be evil or at least entirely villainous.

So it's a gauntlet through an enemy that can't be reasoned with, in an area probably devoid of allies, and everything seems to point to the Mechane getting shot down or disabled soon and leaving the Order split up in the mountains and travelling on foot to Firmament. How exactly is this supposed to be enjoyable?

Kish

2017-03-10, 10:53 AM

Seventeen strips is actually a really small number, in terms of the kind of huge plot arcs OotS has always had. For comparison, it took Roy fifty strips to realize Miko was an antagonist rather than a new member of the Order. And the amount of real time involved doesn't mean anything.

I also disagree entirely with what you're saying everything points to. I will be really surprised if the Mechane and its crew gets swept off-panel the way you're suggesting.

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-10, 10:54 AM

The current arc might turn out to have similar repercussions down the road, but at this point, the frost giant battle just seems to be intended to throw as many new obstacles in the Order's way as (in)humanly possible instead of actually achieving any real progress towards the Order's goals. I think that the point of the Frost Giant intervention is that Hel's servants are actively interfering with anyone thwarting their plan. Rich (the DM), is applying the old matter of "put yourself in the bad guys' shoes, what would he do to pursue his own objectives?" as he once again presents the Order with multiple challenges:
(1) Stop Xykon
(2) Deal with this other plot. In BRITF, it's Tarquin they have to deal with. In this book, it's Hel's plan to undo the world for her own ends as part of her existence long dispute with Thor, Odin, et al.

The overarching point is that there is more than one kind of evil in the world, and each brand has its own motives. (For example, in the real world the problems of pollution, war, disease, famine etc are all serious problems that cannot be lumped into one single problem for which a solution set is suitable).

By now, the webcomic's trajectory as a whole is getting to a point where long-stewing plot points need to start getting resolved, instead of whole new ones being introduced, simply due to there being less and less space remaining in which to develop them. The matter here is threefold: can they thwart Hel so that they can get on with preventing Xykon's designs? Does Durkon return from being dead, as Roy did, or does he RIP once Durkula is defeated? Does Belkar survive long enough to make it to the next book, or is this book his last hurrah? (His "to the very very end" assertion to Mr Scruffy while he's eating his two sandwiches after they defeated the Thieves Guild argues for Belkar lasting into the 7th volume).

I sure hope the Order encounters Serini face-to-face; I don't think she's alive, I suspect she died of old age, but her ghost/spirit would make for an interesting encounter.

How exactly is this supposed to be enjoyable? Belkar gets to kill a bunch of Giants. Haley gets to lay down some whoopass. Elan gets a chance to be heroic/useful.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 10:54 AM

They've been on the Mechane going through this sub-part of the current plot without any cut-aways since July 6. I'm not criticizing the rate of updates, mind you, I'm just saying that eight months of flying through a mountain pass is too many months of flying through a mountain pass.

Fun fact: in addition to that statement basically being, "I'm not saying that it's taking too long in real time, but it's taking too long in real time," that's also the most common complaint among people who are (relatively) new to the comic. It's been said about the mountain pass, it's been said about the godsmoot, it's been said about the gnomes, it's been said about the desert, and so on and so on. That's just how the strip works. Did you have any issues with Roy in the afterlife being too long? Because I hear that was a pretty major contention at the time. When all is said and done, the story is finished and the books are compiled, this isn't going to seem like it's been dragging on at all.

ThatNickGuy

2017-03-10, 10:55 AM

Oh hey, another "This storyarc is taking too long!" post. If Rich had a strip for every time someone complained about this, he'd have the series done three times over by now.

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-10, 11:01 AM

That's just how the strip works. Did you have any issues with Roy in the afterlife being too long? Yes, I do, and I was not a regular reader here when it was being presented one strip at a time. I have DSTP in pdf and I still find the Roy in the afterlife excruciatingly long. The only part in the AL that I liked is when he gets to play with his little brother Eric, and a few of the discussions about alignment with the clerk during his induction, and a few of the back and forth chats with his Archon. The rest was painful to read, again, as I read that story arc in book form.

Cazero

2017-03-10, 11:06 AM

The frost giants don't seem to care about their leaders' motives; all they know is "Lord Thrym commands it" and that's apparently all they ever need. Anyone at that level of religious devotion in this webcomic has uniformly turned out to be evil or at least entirely villainous.
Because everyone knows Heimdal is eeeevil, and so is his high priest.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 11:13 AM

Yes, I do, and I was not a regular reader here when it was being presented one strip at a time. I have DSTP in pdf and I still find the Roy in the afterlife excruciatingly long. The only part in the AL that I liked is when he gets to play with his little brother Eric, and a few of the discussions about alignment with the clerk during his induction, and a few of the back and forth chats with his Archon. The rest was painful to read, again, as I read that story arc in book form.

Well, then your complaint has more weight than the one being presented, which literally states "eight months is too many months."

Kish

2017-03-10, 11:21 AM

Sure. Physical books weigh something, digital ones don't (unless you could the weight of the computer, and then you'd have to say potentially hundreds of thousands of books total out at the weight of the computer, for any one book being almost weightless).

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-10, 11:28 AM

(snip)
I don't think she's alive, I suspect she died of old age, but her ghost/spirit would make for an interesting encounter.
(snip)
All certainly valid points. Re Serini specifically, I thought halflings in D&D generally have a much longer natural lifespan than humans do? Sure, Soon and Girard died of old age and Dorukan became elderly, but Serini might still be relatively healthy owing to racial traits.

Because everyone knows Heimdal is eeeevil, and so is his high priest.
Not evil necessarily, but definitely in the wrong, and essentially a benign villain because the protagonists are fighting to save the world and he is advocating its destruction. Plus the gods are pretty much uniformly portrayed as being arrogant and uncaring towards their mortal followers; even the Dark One only cares about goblinoids at the expense of everybody else.

Seventeen strips is actually a really small number, in terms of the kind of huge plot arcs OotS has always had. For comparison, it took Roy fifty strips to realize Miko was an antagonist rather than a new member of the Order. And the amount of real time involved doesn't mean anything.

Fun fact: in addition to that statement basically being, "I'm not saying that it's taking too long in real time, but it's taking too long in real time," that's also the most common complaint among people who are (relatively) new to the comic. It's been said about the mountain pass, it's been said about the godsmoot, it's been said about the gnomes, it's been said about the desert, and so on and so on. That's just how the strip works. Did you have any issues with Roy in the afterlife being too long? Because I hear that was a pretty major contention at the time. When all is said and done, the story is finished and the books are compiled, this isn't going to seem like it's been dragging on at all.
The difference is that when Roy was figuring out Miko, or Roy was in the afterlife, the strips were being published at one to two a week or more. Now, I fully acknowledge that with more complex art these days and a denser schedule due to Kickstarter demands, etc., that the sheer pace of the early days is likely impossible to achieve anymore. But put yourselves in the shoes of us newer folks -- if you're getting introduced to a webcomic at the rate of a strip every couple of weeks, yet you see over a thousand past strips built up, no wonder there's frustration. Getting caught up on the past thousand-plus strips will only hold new readers so long before they wonder "well, what's next?" and have to twiddle their thumbs for weeks watching the old, established posters argue endlessly over minutiae.

There's solid reasons why you see other series, like ones on television, losing viewers if they go on too many lengthy breaks between episodes. Sure, a big part of that is a modern society that pushes everyone to be impatient at all times and to demand instant gratification in all things. But at the same time, if a story seems to be spinning its wheels and getting bogged down going nowhere, it frustrates viewers/readers and rightly so. (And who knows, maybe that's the reaction we're supposed to be feeling over the frost giants' interference.)

Fundament

2017-03-10, 11:49 AM

Oh hey, another "This storyarc is taking too long!" post.

Perhaps the only thing more common than complaining about the pacing is aggressive dismissal of those complaints.

My complaint is 'eight months is too many months,' and my testimony is 'eight months of the same thing is only fun if what is happening is fun and I don't find this Mechane stuff fun enough for eight months.' It seems like some folks agree and other folks don't really disagree but consider complaints about the pacing too gauche? Anyway, it's my experience, I don't feel I need to argue for its legitimacy. But: the fact that it's an experience which has been shared by many others doesn't invalidate it.

On the other hand if you feel you've read this complaint so many times that it's boring and that I'm not bringing anything new to the table, fair.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 11:52 AM

The difference is that when Roy was figuring out Miko, or Roy was in the afterlife, the strips were being published at one to two a week or more. Now, I fully acknowledge that with more complex art these days and a denser schedule due to Kickstarter demands, etc., that the sheer pace of the early days is likely impossible to achieve anymore. But put yourselves in the shoes of us newer folks -- if you're getting introduced to a webcomic at the rate of a strip every couple of weeks, yet you see over a thousand past strips built up, no wonder there's frustration. Getting caught up on the past thousand-plus strips will only hold new readers so long before they wonder "well, what's next?" and have to twiddle their thumbs for weeks watching the old, established posters argue endlessly over minutiae.

There's solid reasons why you see other series, like ones on television, losing viewers if they go on too many lengthy breaks between episodes. Sure, a big part of that is a modern society that pushes everyone to be impatient at all times and to demand instant gratification in all things. But at the same time, if a story seems to be spinning its wheels and getting bogged down going nowhere, it frustrates viewers/readers and rightly so. (And who knows, maybe that's the reaction we're supposed to be feeling over the frost giants' interference.)

So the solution that people come to here is to come to the forum and complain about the update schedule? Because that's all that's really being accomplished by these kinds of posts.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 11:52 AM

You're not criticizing the update schedule, just pointing out the length of real world time between updates?

For the record this is not an accurate characterization of my point.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 11:55 AM

So the solution that people come to here is to come to the forum and complain about the update schedule? Because that's all that's really being accomplished by these kinds of posts.

Short of intervention in Mr. Burlew's creative process, which I would not presume even if it were an option, I don't see that anyone is looking for a "solution." It's a forum about a web comic, you know? I'm talking about what reading the comic has been like for me recently.

And again, I am not complaining about the update schedule, though the update schedule is one factor contributing to my current somewhat-negative experience.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 11:57 AM

Short of intervention in Mr. Burlew's creative process, which I would not presume even if it were an option, I don't see that anyone is looking for a "solution." It's a forum about a web comic, you know? I'm talking about what reading the comic has been like for me recently.

And again, I am not complaining about the update schedule, though the update schedule is one factor contributing to my current somewhat-negative experience.

You're complaining about the amount of real-world time that has been spent in the mountains. Let's say that X number of pages will be spent in the mountain pass. If that number of pages was all released in a week, would you still have your complaint? If not, then you are complaining about the update schedule, you're just doing it in a way that makes it seem like you aren't.

Kish

2017-03-10, 12:03 PM

The difference is that when Roy was figuring out Miko, or Roy was in the afterlife, the strips were being published at one to two a week or more.
Rich has been explicit--and, in my opinion, is correct--that he's not going to cram the same amount of story into fewer strips in order to save on real time. A story that takes fifty strips will remain a story that takes fifty strips, whether that translates in real time to fifty days or fifty millennia. (We are probably all glad it won't take millennia.)

I recognize that this is an unpopular decision in some quarters.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 12:05 PM

You're complaining about the amount of real-world time that has been spent in the mountains. Let's say that X number of pages will be spent in the mountain pass. If that number of pages was all released in a week, would you still have your complaint? If not, then you are complaining about the update schedule, you're just doing it in a way that makes it seem like you aren't.

I would still think the mountain pass thing took too long, but my complaint would be different, for sure.

There are several ways to alleviate the issues I'm having. Updates coming faster would be one. The whole scene taking less in-comic time would be another. Cutting away to something else would be another. A deeper investment in this slowly-built-up mutiny sub-plot would be another. An investment in the giants as villains would be another. There is not a single problem here, there are several adding together to make me have a less-fun time. This is not a complaint about update schedule. I am saying: whew man, still doing this, bummer, I guess I should come back in a few months.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 12:07 PM

Rich has been explicit--and, in my opinion, is correct--that he's not going to cram the same amount of story into fewer strips in order to save on real time.

I think that's the right call, it's just too bad that this particular arc, which is less engaging for me, is also taking so long in real time. Overall I am glad he's not sacrificed quality for the live-reading experience.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 12:21 PM

I would still think the mountain pass thing took too long, but my complaint would be different, for sure.

There are several ways to alleviate the issues I'm having. Updates coming faster would be one. The whole scene taking less in-comic time would be another. Cutting away to something else would be another. A deeper investment in this slowly-built-up mutiny sub-plot would be another. An investment in the giants as villains would be another. There is not a single problem here, there are several adding together to make me have a less-fun time. This is not a complaint about update schedule. I am saying: whew man, still doing this, bummer, I guess I should come back in a few months.

See, I have no problem if people think they actual storyline is too long. I don't agree, but I can't really argue against it, because that's personal taste. It's when people complain about real-world time is what gets me. Though I do think that cutting away to something else would ruin the flow of the battle.

And yeah, taking a few months' break isn't a bad idea. Everyone who sticks around deals with it differently. For instance, dedicated forumites tend to argue over minutae, as has been pointed out. More than a few have mentioned just checking back a few times a year. Whatever you're happiest with is the right call.

Jasdoif

2017-03-10, 12:36 PM

For instance, dedicated forumites tend to argue over minutae, as has been pointed out."Minutae", of course, is a subset of "minutiae" where people rarely see eye to eye. Because "minutae" only has one i.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 12:38 PM

"Minutae", of course, is a subset of "minutiae" where people rarely see eye to eye. Because "minutae" only has one i.

Prescriptivist. And yet you never give me any painkillers.

Jasdoif

2017-03-10, 12:41 PM

Prescriptivist.I prefer "proponent of coincidental brilliance in writing," myself; but it's fine if you don't want to take credit for your own brilliancy. The supercop story...was working. Okay?

Peelee

2017-03-10, 12:44 PM

I prefer "proponent of coincidental brilliance in writing," myself; but it's fine if you don't want to take credit for your own brilliancy.

I'm so used to blatantly taking credit for what others have done, it's kind of a new experience for me. I, too, greatly enjoy the Police Story films.

Jasdoif

2017-03-10, 12:47 PM

I'm so used to blatantly taking credit for what others have done, it's kind of a new experience for me. I, too, greatly enjoy the Police Story series.Ah. It's alright, you'll get to used to it eventually. It's too bad I've never heard of that series, and am quoting from Beverly Hills Cop.

kenlund

2017-03-10, 01:29 PM

Whatever anyone thinks of this encounter, hopefully the Order will get a bunch of XP so several of them can level again before the final confrontation with Xykon.

Rogar Demonblud

2017-03-10, 02:07 PM

Yeah, level grinding is what I figured the Order's role in this arc is. Especially considering they've been complaining about it (see Roy and Vaarsuvius after the Crystal Golem thing).

Mister Loorg

2017-03-10, 03:02 PM

Seeing this, I'm starting to think that people on this forum need to not disregard criticism so quickly, especially when the complaint in question is shared by multiple people.

Jasdoif

2017-03-10, 03:07 PM

Seeing this, I'm starting to think that people on this forum need to not disregard criticism so quickly, especially when the complaint in question is shared by multiple people.Does that include criticism about criticism? :smalltongue:

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-10, 03:08 PM

Seeing this, I'm starting to think that people on this forum need to not disregard criticism so quickly, especially when the complaint in question is shared by multiple people.

As (presumably) one of said "people of this forum", we do not "disregard" criticism. We oppose it, rationally.

Also, didn't I just link to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)?

GW

georgie_leech

2017-03-10, 03:16 PM

As (presumably) one of said "people of this forum", we do not "disregard" criticism. We oppose it, rationally.

Also, didn't I just link to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)?

GW

For clarity, Grey_wolf is speaking of this particular set of criticisms. Unless I badly misread them, I'm pretty sure they don't oppose the general idea of criticism on rational grounds. :smallbiggrin:

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:21 PM

As (presumably) one of said "people of this forum", we do not "disregard" criticism. We oppose it, rationally.

Also, didn't I just link to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)?

GW

'"Appeal to the people"' arguments make a liiiiittle more sense when discussing subjective questions of taste, though.

"Boy, Batman & Robin is a bad movie."
"Why? Just because everyone hates it?? Logical fallacy!"

Grey_Wolf_c

2017-03-10, 03:22 PM

For clarity, Grey_wolf is speaking of this particular set of criticisms. Unless I badly misread them, I'm pretty sure they don't oppose the general idea of criticism on rational grounds. :smallbiggrin:

I don't oppose any criticism, although I certainly prefer rational to emotional criticism (but I understand the latter does exist, and sometime one must vent it). I oppose being told I disregard criticism, when I believe it is quite clear that, if anything, my fault lies with paying it too much attention.

'"Appeal to the people"' arguments make a liiiiittle more sense when discussing subjective questions of taste, though.

"Boy, Batman & Robin is a bad movie."
"Why? Just because everyone hates it?? Logical fallacy!"
More like
"Boy, Batman Returns is a bad movie - some of my friends said so!"
"That's a fallacy - do you have an actual problem with the movie?"

Grey Wolf

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 03:28 PM

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:28 PM

More like
"Boy, Batman Returns is a bad movie - some of my friends said so!"
"That's a fallacy - do you have an actual problem with the movie?"

Grey Wolf

I would clarify that I have given pretty thorough descriptions of my problems with this moment in the comic but 1. I know you're not really addressing me or this thread with this criticism and 2. I can't even engage with this because Batman Returns rules.

Kish

2017-03-10, 03:31 PM

I think that ("would you want to have to accept that Batman Returns is a bad movie because someone scraped up thirty people who would say it was?") was Grey Wolf's point.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:31 PM

The problem with criticism at this point is that the story - and even the particular arc - is ongoing. To critique it now is a bit like writing a theater review during the first intermission; having not seen it through to the end, you lack context to have an informed opinion.

It's worse in OOTS because, while it is read one-day at a time, it is intended to be a book which could be read all at once. So criticism is more analogous to complaining about a book mid-chapter after you didn't have time to read last week because you were too busy at work.

People can, do, and should criticize where intermissions and chapter breaks are placed and any pacing problems which are revealed by those decisions.

Also, this 'it's intended to be a book' argument seems silly to me. Yes, sure, ok, but also, it IS a serially-released web comic and it's that experience on which I'm commenting.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:33 PM

I think that ("would you want to have to accept that Batman Returns is a bad movie because someone scraped up thirty people who would say it was?") was Grey Wolf's point.

Yeah, I think his/her points and my points are clear, I'm not seeing that we disagree.

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 03:36 PM

I will say that looking at it in terms of the amount of real-time that's passed is not the approach Rich is taking. Number of strips matters. Amount of in-comic time that passes matters. But he's focused on what it will look like when the compilation book comes out, not what it looks like for people who read each page of the webcomic; five strips are going to be the same five strips, covering the same events, whether it turns out that it takes him five days or three months to draw them.

Yes, this. The book is a book. It's very hard to have valid criticism midway through what would amount to one chapter.

The sporadic update schedule also makes it feel longer, which is not a valid criticism of a product which is supposed to be a finished whole.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:37 PM

The book is a book.

It literally is not.

Koo Rehtorb

2017-03-10, 03:42 PM

The serial format is quite common. It's the way many early novels were published.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 03:43 PM

The serial format is quite common. It's the way many early novels were published.

And I assure you that Dickens took his pacing and output very seriously because he knew the serial consumer's experience was also very important, while not sacrificing the ultimate whole.

Kish

2017-03-10, 03:48 PM

I'm glad Rich isn't getting paid by the word, for my part.

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 03:48 PM

People can, do, and should criticize where intermissions and chapter breaks are placed and any pacing problems which are revealed by those decisions.

Also, this 'it's intended to be a book' argument seems silly to me. Yes, sure, ok, but also, it IS a serially-released web comic and it's that experience on which I'm commenting.

It's a book. The Giant has said more than once that his end-goal is to produce a final product to be read front-to-back as a book. The serial publishing is a way to create audience.

By the rules of the forum the update-schedule and, therefore, the serian experience are not acceptable topics of conversation. Anytime someone talks "pacing" of an arc in progress -- especially in light of the real-time duration - that feels like an attempt to circumvent this pretty clear rule.

It's also arguably very entitled in that it puts an implied obligation on Burlew to pace his output based on your reading schedule.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:02 PM

... the serian experience are not acceptable topics of conversation.

The regular readers of the comic can only be having a serial experience of the comic. If that experience is not an acceptable topic of conversation I confess I am not sure what is, other than reviews of the books when they come out.

I'm not sure you're reading what I'm writing if you think that my complaint is the update schedule. That is not what I have said, and have in fact specifically argued otherwise already. if you don't think those arguments are legit, could you engage with them?

Peelee

2017-03-10, 04:05 PM

The regular readers of the comic can only be having a serial experience of the comic.

The free readers of the comic can only be having a serial experience of the comic.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:06 PM

It's also arguably very entitled in that it puts an implied obligation on Burlew to pace his output based on your reading schedule.

I like TOotS very much, and would not want Mr. Burlew to increase his pace at the expense of quality, so I am not making this argument, but if I WERE, I don't see how my saying 'I don't like this for these reasons' is expressing a belief that I am owed something else. If someone is singing on the street I can say "I don't like this song" without implying that the troubadour is obliged to cater to me.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:07 PM

The free readers of the comic can only be having a serial experience of the comic.

The readers of this portion of the comic which we're all talking about, yes.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 04:14 PM

I like TOotS very much, and would not want Mr. Burlew to increase his pace at the expense of quality, so I am not making this argument, but if I WERE, I don't see how my saying 'I don't like this for these reasons' is expressing a belief that I am owed something else. If someone is singing on the street I can say "I don't like this song" without implying that the troubadour is obliged to cater to me.

If you say, "I don't like this song because it's going on too long," though, what can people say to you? Nothing will change that. So far as I've seen, you've said two things. That the current storyline is going on too long for your tastes (which is completely subjective and I cannot argue against, because your opinion can't be wrong), and that the strips are taking too long in real time (which is basically complaining about the update schedule). If you had any other issues I missed, I'm all ears.

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 04:15 PM

I'm not sure you're reading what I'm writing if you think that my complaint is the update schedule. That is not what I have said, and have in fact specifically argued otherwise already. if you don't think those arguments are legit, could you engage with them?

As soon as you mentioned the real-life time of this arc [since July] it was about the update schedule. I'll also note that if you go back 20 strips and read them all at once the feel is quite different.

See also Neil Gaiman's defense of George Martin's slow pace in publishing books:

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

We can discuss what we think is going to happen next, the feel of the story thus far. To discuss pacing and the place of this arc in the scheme of the whole book is really not fair. That the intent is for the work to be read as a single completed work has been stated again and again.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:22 PM

pendell

2017-03-10, 04:30 PM

For context, I'd like to look at the authorship of Lord of the Rings, as described in one of Tolkien's letters (dated 7 June 1955)

The Lord of the Rings is only the end part of a work nearly twice as long ... which I worked at between 1936 and 53. It would have been a big task without anything else; but I have been a moderately conscientious administrator and teacher, and I changed professorships in 1945 ... and of course during the War there was no time for anything rational. I stuck for ages at the end of book 3. Book 4 was written as a serial and sent out to my son serving in Africa in 1944. The last two books were written between 1944 and 1948.

So if I'm reading this correctly, there was a four year hiatus in which none of these books were completed. And if the last two books were written in 1948, they weren't actually published until 1954 (29 July, according to Wikipedia).

If Tolkien had been publishing this to a wider audience during all that time, I daresay we would have become quite frustrated at a full four year hiatus between books.

But today we don't even notice this because we can read them all at a sitting. We don't have to think how many years real-time passed between Moria and Lothlorien. To us, it all happens instantly.

I have every confidence that when we eventually read OOTS as a published work, we will find it flows naturally and is paced well.

As it is, we're privileged to get a free look at the advance copy, and so it seems slow.

I suppose, after reading my own post, I must extend more charity to Mr. Burlew. His writing speed is consistent with other authors on the same subject matter, and those other authors don't have the real-life challenges Mr. Burlew faces, but has steadfastly refused to discuss in detail.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 04:32 PM

Here's my point: Still, uh... still goin through the mountain pass, huh? This has been going on for too long for it to be fun for me.

It's honestly baffling to me that anyone wants to mount an argument that such a criticism is in any way inappropriate or illegitimate, but those arguments are the only reason I'm continuing to return to this point. The point itself is very simple, no greater themes to explore I don't think.

Yes. It's a whiny, passive-aggressive dig at the update schedule. You made that clear two comments later when you mentioned real-time months. It's a clear attack on Burlew's priorities, it's self-centered, and it very likely violates the rules of the message board.

Czhorat

2017-03-10, 04:38 PM

I suppose, after reading my own post, I must extend more charity to Mr. Burlew. His writing speed is consistent with other authors on the same subject matter, and those other authors don't have the real-life challenges Mr. Burlew faces, but has steadfastly refused to discuss in detail.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That's a very interesting point. That said, not everyone writes at the same speed.

Rothfuss is almost six years since book two of the three-book Kingkiller Chronicles.
Martin has had so many delays that the TV show has past him.
Stephen King was publishing a book a year at one point.

Literature is art. Comics are art. Art comes at its time and pace.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:38 PM

Yes. It's a whiny, passive-aggressive dig at the update schedule. You made that clear two comments later when you mentioned real-time months. It's a clear attack on Burlew's priorities, it's self-centered, and it very likely violates the rules of the message board.

Booo. Boo to you. You're too sensitive to criticism of Mr. Burlew to notice my consistent praise of him and his priorities.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:39 PM

Oh and: yeah, it's self-centered! I'm talking about my own opinions! Sheesh.

Peelee

2017-03-10, 04:41 PM

Here's my point: Still, uh... still goin through the mountain pass, huh? This has been going on for too long for it to be fun for me.

It's honestly baffling to me that anyone wants to mount an argument that such a criticism is in any way inappropriate or illegitimate, but those arguments are the only reason I'm continuing to return to this point. The point itself is very simple, no greater themes to explore I don't think.

Nearly all the criticism is coming from the fact that someone said, "it's only been 17 strips," to which you responded, "and that's taken eight months."

For the record, it's been 17 strips since the giants showed up.

It really hasn't been that long.They've been on the Mechane going through this sub-part of the current plot without any cut-aways since July 6. I'm not criticizing the rate of updates, mind you, I'm just saying that eight months of flying through a mountain pass is too many months of flying through a mountain pass.

Fundament

2017-03-10, 04:46 PM

Well, to me, the very reasonable forum rule of not complaining about the rate of updates should apply mostly to 'jeez when is the next strip gonna be done' and does not apply to 'as a reader the fact that this one story sub-arc has taken eight months is a significant factor which can also be taken into account in my overall experience.' Maybe that was too much of an assumption. It's not like I don't understand the point you're making, it just seems silly to me that the real-world rate of consumption would be forbidden from discussion.

Mister Loorg

2017-03-10, 05:03 PM

goodpeople25

2017-03-10, 06:12 PM

In defense of Fundament, counting from the start of the siege of Azure City to the end of the arc (which includes the main battle and all of the lead-up to DStP), it took 62 pages. So this single battle against some giants has taken 25% of the pages it took to wage an entire war, and it doesn't look like it's ending soon.
Pages and strips are not interchangeable terms in this context though. (Can't be 100% certain if you are, but the end of the arc and #422 line up with your number of 62) Plus being a major event gave the battle extra strips of build up still related to the event, plus stuff like changed art style and bonus/cut strips that I think would favour the bigger event.

nocoolnamejim

2017-03-10, 06:19 PM

I think there is a small but identifiable difference between criticising the update schedule, and, accepting that the updates happen roughly as frequently as they do, criticising the pacing of the strips published on that schedule. The former is complaining that updates should be more frequent, the latter is saying that the strip pacing should take account of the known frequency of the updates.

I feel like this point deserves a bit more attention because I don't think anyone has really directly addressed it.

Questioning the rate of updates is materially different from suggesting that a particular story arc might be worth skipping if it's going to take months of real time.

And given the ruling that story arcs will not be hurried along by being done in fewer strips to accommodate the update rate (a decision that I wholeheartedly agree with) then questions about how certain story arcs might be less well received if they are going to take a lot more real time than they otherwise would seem valid.

I personally find the current Andi/Frost Giant arc to be slightly weak relative to the established comic norm. If it's done to get Bandana into the OotS then that doesn't seem worth it to me because I don't think Bandana's a great character particularly if it means getting her in while losing a character like Belkar whom I enjoy a great deal more and have been liking the long gradual character development due to his long awaited death. If it's done to unlock Roy's Returning power for his sword...just kind of meh on that one too.

None of this changes that I think this is a FANTASTIC webcomic overall and if I have to shrug and accept an arc that isn't my favorite for longer than I'd like then so be it.

But I do think the point that "criticizing the story arc choices when updates are going to be far less frequent because some arcs will seem to drag on" is materially different than "criticizing the number and frequency of updates" is worth considering.

I suspect that the Andi arc would be better received if it didn't seem to be taking so infernally long real time and the last ten strips weren't some variation of "Andi does something monumentally stupid that bones over both her crew and the party".

Dr.Zero

2017-03-10, 07:14 PM

Hmm. It just occurred to me that if Belkar hadn't jumped off the Mechane, all the giant boarders would have been dead well before now....

To be fair, quite obviously if Belkar remained on the Mechane, the giants would have not jumped on. :smallbiggrin:
(And no, not because they feared the always awesome Belkar, even if they should, but because for rule of drama and plot convenience, the main attack could not be so easily resolved).

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-10, 07:41 PM

To be fair, quite obviously if Belkar remained on the Mechane, the giants would have not jumped on. :smallbiggrin:
(And no, not because they feared the always awesome Belkar, even if they should, but because for rule of drama and plot convenience, the main attack could not be so easily resolved). As Tarquin might have opined, they barely respect a real warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0929.html): Roy. That hubris would have cost them dearly, I suspect, as it is costing a few of their compatriots on the ground. The Sexy Shoeless God of War is reveling in this BoO: Battle of Opportunity. :smallbiggrin:

An Enemy Spy

2017-03-10, 09:00 PM

Has there been a single arc in this comic that hasn't been met with a bevy of whining about how we're stuck on a pointless subplot that's never going to end and can't we just get to beating Xykon already?

This pointless giant fight is taking too long!

This pointless godsmoot is taking too long!

This pointless Crystal fight is taking too long!

This pointless Empire of Blood story is taking too long!

This pointless orc island adventure is taking too long!

This pointless Greysky City plot is taking too long!

This pointless resistance story is taking too long!

This pointless visit to heaven is taking too long!

This pointless battle is taking too long!

This pointless Linear Guild plot is taking too long!

This pointless trial is taking too long!

This pointless hotel plot is taking too long!

This pointless ogre plot is taking too long!

This pointless starmetal quest is taking too long!

This pointless evil opposites fight is taking too long!

This pointless gag-a-day dungeon crawl is taking too long!

Here, since Rich is apparently just a talentless hack who's just trying to bog the story down with his pointless nonsense meant to fool us into paying for more books while he cackles atop his mountain of cash, I will write a script for the comic that should have been made.

[The Order of the Stick enters the Dungeon of Dorukan]

ROY GREENHILT: Alright, we're here at the Dungeon of Durokan to kill the evil lich Xykon and avenge my father's master Fyron. Everybody, explain what your particular personality quirk is.

ELAN: But Roy, shouldn't we allow the narrative structure to reveal our personalities organically?

ROY: Elan, you dunce! Character development would only take away valuable time that could otherwise be spent pursuing the main goal of the story. Let me start, I'm Roy Greenhilt and I'm the constantly bemused straight man to the zany quirks of my companions.

HALEY STARSHINE: I'm Haley Starshine and I love treasure.

ELAN: I'm Elan and I'm silly!

VAARSUVIUS: I am Vaarsuvius and the sesquipedalian loquaciousness of my vernacular knows no boundary, nor does my mastery of the arcane arts. The nature of my genitalia is also a subject of much contemplation, though I find the matter inconsequential to the pursuit of ever more mystical power.

DURKON THUNDERSHIELD: I be Durkon Thundershield, an' my quirk is tha' I bein' afraid o' trees.

ROY: Is that a pirate voice?

DURKON: Avast, An Enemy Spy not be good at doin' a Scottish accent, me hearties.

HALEY: And what about you, Belkar?

BELKAR BITTERLEAF: I like stabbing people.

ROY: Finally. That was interminable. Let's go kill Xykon and end this thing already.

[The Order opens a door and finds Nale on the other side]

NALE: Hello there, my name is Nale and I'm Elan's long lost twin.

ROY: THERE WILL BE NO SUBPLOTS!

[Roy swings his mighty sword and cleaves Nale in two]

VAARSUVIUS: With my superior Evlen senses, I have ascertained that Xykon is in the adjacent chamber.

ROY: Alright everyone, this is the battle we've spent twelve panels preparing ourselves for. Let's go kill that lich.

DURKON: Wait, lemme cast this spell on yer sword that'll send Xykon to tha bottom o' Davy Jones' Locker. Metaphorically o' course. We be on dry land after all. Argh.

[Durkon casts Disruption on Roy's sword. The Order bursts through the door into Xykon's throne room. Haley shoots arrows, Elan sings his bard song, Vaarsuvius and Durkon cast spells, and Belkar stabs goblins. Roy hits Xykon with his sword and kills him.]

XYKON: No! I'm more dead than usual! [dies]

REDCLOAK: Oh no, I'd better get Xykon's phylactery out of here so he can come back to threaten the Order of the Stick in a later adventure.

[Belkar throws a knife into Redcloak's back and kills him]

VAARSUVIUS: Sir Greenhilt, you should destroy that phylactery so that Xykon will be unable to return to life.

ROY: Good thinking, V.

[Roy destroys the phylactery with his magically empowered sword]

HALEY: Hooray! We did it, and also I love you, Elan.

[Haly and Elan make out on top of Xykon's treasure trove]

ROY: Good job keeping that goblin from getting away with the phylactery, Belkar.

BELKAR: Phylactawhat? I just wanted to kill something!

ELAN: That's our Belkar!

[Everybody laughs. THE END]

There, the story is finished and now you can stop wasting your valuable time reading this comic. And the rest of us can get a much needed break from the never ending complaints about how long the story is.

Fey

2017-03-10, 09:06 PM

Still, uh... still complaining about the online pacing of a free work even though it will be a ten minute read in the final published book just like every other allegedly slow-paced story arc in the last ten years, huh?

Still makin' our way through this here complaint thread, fightin' some trolls, eh?

Cool, cool.

... ok, see you in a bit!

Mister Loorg

2017-03-10, 09:13 PM

Exactly what I was talking about earlier.

goodpeople25

2017-03-10, 09:21 PM

An Enemy Spy

2017-03-10, 09:26 PM

In all seriousness I think you can/might want to spilt up some of those up, mainly the empire of blood plot arc.

I was worried people would complain I was taking too long to get to the end.

goodpeople25

2017-03-10, 09:34 PM

I was worried people would complain I was taking too long to get to the end.
True, but that one (mainly the tarquin desert chase) I think had a bit more significance/infamy especially since it's an entire book with one thing. But yeah I think I might be putting a bit too much thought into this.

TheNecrocomicon

2017-03-10, 09:54 PM

(rant snipped)

Would you like a little more straw for building those guys?

Nobody's saying the webcomic's plot should be done right away. The point is that some people feel that the latest arc or two have been dragging, especially in comparison to older portions of OotS.

It's unfortunate that it enrages you so deeply that people hold that opinion, but it's not like people are just going to shut up and leave the boards just because you don't like what they have to say.

An Enemy Spy

2017-03-10, 09:58 PM

Would you like a little more straw for building those guys?

Nobody's saying the webcomic's plot should be done right away. The point is that some people feel that the latest arc or two have been dragging, especially in comparison to older portions of OotS.

It's unfortunate that it enrages you so deeply that people hold that opinion, but it's not like people are just going to shut up and leave the boards just because you don't like what they have to say.

Enraged? Who's enraged? Slightly annoyed, maybe. There's a whole spectrum of emotions we as humans are capable of. If all it takes to send me into a fit of rage is some some masturbatory self important whining on the internet, then I'm going to have a hard time getting through life.

And it's not just the last two arcs, it's every single arc since I began reading this comic in the year 2007. You can go on the OOTS forum at any time and see two or three threads about how the current arc is just a pointless sidequest and the story is dragging(there are two such threads on the first page at this very moment). Everyone knows the story updates slowly, so the only reason to complain about it is so that everybody can see you're complaining.

I should clarify, by mastubatory, I mean the Merriam Webster definition: excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent. Not, you know, the other kind.