Retreat?

[Foxolicious]

I'm a new DM and also I have a group of many new players. How do I get them to retreat possibly just try to teach them that not every battle can be won.
Suggestions???

[Naanomi]

Well, just make the odds overwhelming enough and they should get the idea. They sneak into the bandit camp and kill the leader in her room; but an alarm is sounded and hundreds of bandits are charging their way (but a turn or two back).

[mgshamster]

Players are dumb (this includes me).

If you want players to run, you have to be *very* explicit about it.

"This monster is very life threatening. You don't believe you can take it."

"You foes seriously outnumber you. Staying and fighting may result in your death."

However, if you don't want to be that explicit, then you need some very strong hints.

For example, say your PCs are fighting a really challenging Dire Rhino. They barely survive at the end of the battle. While harvesting the meat, skin, and horn, two more dire rhinos show up. Uh oh! Then bam! They both get taken out by a single giant spider!

That's one spider that should instantly be aware that they need to run from.

[Mrc.]

It really depends a lot on your group of players, but by introducing other victory conditions than "everything not on Team Hero is dead" they can learn to move on from just fighting everything. Also, have several opportunities to see that not everything is a challenge they can fight. Have NPCs they know to be powerful comment on a particular foe being stronger, have another party of hapless adventurers get murdered by this threat and make sure that out of character the players know they aren't invulnerable. Don't pull a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" but if the party see multiple signs that indicate they are approaching a dragon's lair and still don't take some measure to avoid it then ultimately they only have themselves to blame.

Here are a few examples:

Scenario 1. The party have been tasked with escorting an important NPC from one town to the next. Make sure to have other NPCs impress upon them how important this mission is. If they decide to chase down each and every bandit they see then their charge could well suffer. Have some of the caravan guards remind the party that their job here is to protect someone rather than kill the bandits.

Scenario 2. Several groups of assassins are headed to the king's chamber and the party are the only group who know about this. If they try and fight their way through every single assassin the king will be long dead. Instead, they should try and rush for the king's chamber and defend him.

Scenario 3. An ancient red dragon spies the party as they travel overland and decides to investigate. If they attempt to fight then they'll almost certainly be killed, but the dragon is inquisitive and finds it amusing watching the clearly weaker humanoids mill about their daily life. This teaches the party that fighting is not always the right option and that indulging the dragon's curiosity is preferable to indulging it's appetite.

Scenario 4. The party have managed to awaken an undead high priest and he raises hordes of zombies to assail them. This can be done in several ways but personally I like to have the surrounding area collapse just to emphasise the need to run. If you're using models then either have a few waves getting stronger but making sure to let the party know that there are countless more to take their place, or just go whole hog and place all of them on the table at once. Sometimes it takes seeing the forces against them to let the party know that maybe this time they should retreat.

Ultimately the important thing is that the players know what they're getting themselves in for. If they try and fight their way through a lost encounter and then say "But you never said we were supposed to run I thought we could take them" or "why did you put us up against enemies that can kill us?" then this message hasn't gotten across properly.

[Bahamut7]

Good luck...most players think that any encounter they have options...are encounters that can be won.

[Tanarii]

I've found that generally speaking, you have to make it clear before the first session ever begins that you're running a game where they can't expect every potential encounter to be automatically 'winnable' via combat. And that they might want to pay close attention to hints you'll be dropping about how tough an enemy is, and always have a retreat strategy planned ahead of time.

That's, generally speaking, not a very common way to set up D&D games nowadays. It's also worth noting that retreating can be quite hard if you wait until after its obvious you're in a no win situation. (This applies to the DM wanting monsters to retreat as well.)

Also, it helps if you allow (and for younger players explain) some classic tactics: dropping treasure or food to make the enemy decide it's better getting that then chasing you down. And have enemies show that they're willing to retreat or surrender, to demonstrate the point, possibly offering up something to be allowed to live. Of course, if your players just slaughter all enemies out of hand, they'll be learning a different lesson ...

[Naanomi]

Part of the challenge is that the system doesn't really present a lot of opportunity to retreat from a particularly aggressive foe... you need some way to actively hinder their movement (whether through obstacle, distraction, misdirection, etc) or else the movement/initiative/attack cycle just keeps people on eachother across the map no matter how far you run

[Kane0]

You do not *teach* your players to run. You *tell* them. 99.9% of the time they will not see what you see, they don't know what you know and will not do what you assume they will.

Don't play the guessing game with them. If you advise tell them straight up of what they are facing then they can make a decision fully aware. If they choose to stay and fight (IC or OoC), well that's their decision and you play out the consequences.

[Tanarii]

Part of the challenge is that the system doesn't really present a lot of opportunity to retreat from a particularly aggressive foe... you need some way to actively hinder their movement (whether through obstacle, distraction, misdirection, etc) or else the movement/initiative/attack cycle just keeps people on eachother across the map no matter how far you run

Nothing says you have to stay stuck in 'combat' mode once a retreat it under way. Just break into the chase rules instead.

Of course, getting some distance from being locked in hand to hand combat to start the retreat can be an issue. That's why a party needs to plan their strategy ahead of time. Things like caltrops and ballbearings can help at low levels, as well as having faster PCs (if any) hold back foes momentarily before they make a break for it. And of course various spells help at higher levels.

Also it's going to be situational. People on foot against mounted or very fast foes, or enemies with strong ranged attacks, are gonna be scewed in the open if they try to retreat.

(Edit: added quote for clarity in whom I'm responding to.)

[Astofel]

I've found that generally speaking, you have to make it clear before the first session ever begins that you're running a game where they can't expect every potential encounter to be automatically 'winnable' via combat. And that they might want to pay close attention to hints you'll be dropping about how tough an enemy is, and always have a retreat strategy planned ahead of time.

This. Especially if you're running an adventure similar to Princes of the Apocalypse, just be upfront and tell your players out-of-character that it's possible for them to run into a situation where their enemies are far more powerful than they are, and that in such cases it could be better to retreat and live to fight another day than to stand your ground and risk defeat.

[Sigreid]

Provide them a means to raise dead once. Then kill one of them in a fight they can just barely win with one certain fatality.

[Malifice]

Demonstrate the threat by having the monster kill something the PCs are scared of, smashing rocks with its hands, or whatever.

[Morcleon]

I generally use something like "An overwhelming aura of power washes over you with an almost tangible force. All of your instincts are screaming at you to run away before it kills you."

[LudicSavant]

I'm a new DM and also I have a group of many new players. How do I get them to retreat possibly just try to teach them that not every battle can be won.
Suggestions???

The answer is simple enough: Make them lose battles until they learn.

If you never hurt your players, they will never run, because why would they? There is no genuine threat, and they're smart enough to know that.

That said, make sure enough information is available that PCs can have rational expectations of danger and options available.

[Cespenar]

Best way in my opinion:

Make them roll Insight or Perception. To those that roll high, say that this creature(s) is/are just too strong/numerous in your professional opinion.

Since they see it as a successful check, they treat the knowledge as their "right", and they become much more likely to accept the explanation.

[DMThac0]

I am testing a mechanic in one of my games, after asking my players if they didn't mind a bit of homebrewing to HP to make combat more interesting, I explained this:
**This method is adapted from someone else's suggestion, I just can't remember who to give credit to.

You have XdX hp + Con (max) at level 1, you also have the same amount of "Morale Points". Every level your Morale Points go up using your hit die roll/average, your hit points go up only by your constitution modifier (no less than 1). Every 4th level (character not class) you roll/avg your HP and Morale Points.

During combat you lose your Morale Points much in the same way as Temporary HP. When you take enough damage to bring you to, or below, 0 Morale Points you suffer from combat fatigue, any excess damage is dropped. This gives you disadvantage on attack rolls, spell attacks, and concentration for offensive spells. From this point you have only your HP pool, and 3 death saving throws.

So far it creates an interesting tension to combat and makes players consider more tactical approaches to combat encounters. We are only level 4 so I haven't had the chance to see how it stacks up to some of the heavy hitting CR monsters out there, but as I said I'm just testing it.

[Puh Laden]

I haven't DM'd that long, only about a year's worth, but I recall two instances where the players ran: when they rolled a total of 20 to hit a dullahan (pathfinder) and missed and when they were outnumbered and the tank dropped unconscious (5e). But then again that first group was also determined to cheat a dragon out of magic items and instead of running managed to intimidate the dragon into compliance. I think a key could be to make sure that the fight is not an obstacle "blocking the way" to the party's goal, or else the players will be determined to overcome the "impossible" encounter and inevitably get lucky or die.

[Pex]

Since you're new, be sure you're teaching them to retreat as a necessary tactic for when the battle goes bad for them to save their character's lives and not because you want to put the fear of DM in them to bow to your superior power. It's an unfortunate failing of new DMs to let the power go to their head. On the players' part it is sometimes a hard lesson to learn to let the battle go, take their lumps, and regroup to find another route to victory, but they shouldn't be "taught a lesson".

[Temperjoke]

Sacrifice an NPC that they liked in a horrific and overwhelming manner, that demonstrates exactly how far beyond them this challenge is. Like, have the NPC be shown to be more powerful than them, and then have a passing roc swoop down and eat him and his mount in one gulp.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Add another person saying "you should probably say something OOC if this is the sort of game you intend to run." With 5e especially, combats are short and brutal: the rules are geared towards combats being 3-5 rounds, which means players have a very narrow window between a) having enough information IC to know they're outmatched and b) getting killed. In that time, all of them have to agree to run, and they have to create an opening to disengage safely. It's not easy for them.

[JackPhoenix]

Sacrifice an NPC that they liked in a horrific and overwhelming manner, that demonstrates exactly how far beyond them this challenge is. Like, have the NPC be shown to be more powerful than them, and then have a passing roc swoop down and eat him and his mount in one gulp.

Of course, if the players are more familiar with videogames, most likely reaction will be "ah, a cutscene to make us hate the enemy and show how strong it is before we kill it"

[Tanarii]

The answer is simple enough: Make them lose battles until they learn.In this day and age, it's still critically important to communicate to the players that you're going to do this before the campaign begins. Because the assumption of most games nowadays is it will be a
Semi-linear Combat-as-Sport game, and that the PCs have a solid chance of winning each and every combat encounter, unless they royally screw up or over-extend themselves.

In a combat as war sandbox, even with level appropriate zones (aka dungeons), players can easily get in over their heads. They need to know that's possible.

I haven't played the current 5e Adventure Paths, so I don't know linear & assured of winning they are. (Note that the reason linear adventures usually become combat as sport / safe is because otherwise the adventure cannot easily proceed.)

[LudicSavant]

In this day and age, it's still critically important to communicate to the players that you're going to do this before the campaign begins. Didn't I just say that?


That said, make sure enough information is available that PCs can have rational expectations of danger and options available.

[mgshamster]

Another way to make PCs run away is to make the run scene cinematic; make the true threat part of the backdrop. The PCs can still win the combat while technically running.

Here's some examples from my games:

1) PCs were escaping prison. They had no gear except the knives and knickknacks they stole from the prison kitchen, and they were seriously outmatched. They waited for a major distraction (demons appeared at the prison and most of the guards were fighting off the demons). While they were technically running from the enemy, they still had small fights as they fled. They didn't have to face the entire guard post at the prison, but they did have to face one or two guards here and there, and those smaller battles they won.

2) A giant demon appeared out of the waters on a lake shore town. The demon started grabbing tens of people at a time, stuffing them into its mouth. By the time it got to shore, it would destroy a single building with one hit. The PCs fled, but the entire scene was turned into a obstacle course. They had to make checks to overcome various road blocks or avoid collapsing buildings or flying debris. Failure on some checks meant a bit of damage. Success on other checks meant they saved a civilian just in time. Technically, they were running away the entire time. By the end of the scene, they had successfully​ fled the town and got to safety, with a number of civilians saved along the way.

[MrStabby]

So it depends on how much you are willing to tweak the rules.

I am working on a system to make combat more "dangerous". I mean dangerous in the sense of a risk of losing something rather than lethal. At present, as long as you survive combat you are pretty much as if the combat didn't happen after a long rest. Even if most of the party goes unconscious it doesn't really matter. Even if people die they can be resurrected - the penalty to rolls for the following days may or may not matter depending on how much is happening in that time anyway.

Fewer hit dice recovered on a long rest, a cap on hit dice able to be expended on a short rest together mean that even encounters you win can hurt a lot and be "not worth it". Likewise adjusting the rest mechanic for spells can mean that an engagement, even if won, can leave the party vulnerable to resources are recovered.

My hope is that once players get used to thinking in terms of how much a fight will hurt them rather than just in terms of a binary win/loss they will be more keen to retreat when these things go a bit wrong. As mentioned before, 5th edition can be a bit swingy so the round that people work out it's time to retreat is the time when the party has already taken a battering.

Enemies that are overpowering may do well to avoid abilities that make it hard to retreat. No hold person spells or powerful grapples.

From a world perspective it helps to have more than two sides. If it is a zero sum game then your loss is their gain. If they have an interest in conserving their own resources to deal with another threat then they have a credible reason to not pursue the party too hard.

[Tanarii]

Didn't I just say that?
I took that to mean in-game. Which is also important. But I'm saying a straight up statement, before any player joins the campaign, that 'if your PC isn't willing to run away or retreat, they WILL die' is important. (In my case, I add something like 'and there's a good chance they will anyway. Good luck.')

[mephnick]

Nothing says you have to stay stuck in 'combat' mode once a retreat it under way. Just break into the chase rules instead.

Are the chase rules any good? They look a bit clunky, but I haven't tried them.

[Sigreid]

You could also tell the players flat out "This isn't an MMO with level constrained zones. Not everything you come across is going to be beatable at your current level. Some of the things you come across are fights for later. Part of the wonder of the game is learning which is which and trying to escape when you are wrong."

The problem with this is some of the official adventures railroad the party into loosing fights they should have the good sense to avoid.

[Tanarii]

Are the chase rules any good? They look a bit clunky, but I haven't tried them.They're good if you mostly just ignore them hahahaha

No seriously though, they basically come down to a limit on number of times each creature can Dash (ie double move), assuming they all move at the same time so (unless speed is different) the distance between them won't change. You can make a ranged attack (physical or spell) but if your opponent still has a Dash left they'll increase the distance between you if you do so. You can't realistically make melee attacks or opportunity attacks, because the distance stays constant.

I've found the best way to do it is to shift into 'Chase' mode the moment one side decides to run, effectively sliding out of initiative. I don't allow it if the pursuers can catch up in 1-2 rounds to get back in melee distance. And if for some reason the pursuers DO ever get back in melee range, I just slide right back into 'Combat' mode. It's pretty easy to switch back and forth holistically, and it gets your players out of the 'Combat Swoosh' mentality a bit.


You could also tell the players flat out "This isn't an MMO with level constrained zones. Not everything you come across is going to be beatable at your current level. Some of the things you come across are fights for later. Part of the wonder of the game is learning which is which and trying to escape when you are wrong."Sandbox D&D almost always has level constrained zones. They're colloquially called 'Dungeons', although they aren't always actually Dungeons. I've tried completely open sandbox games without level constrained zones in various editions of D&D, and I've found that this WILL wipe the party. Because no matter how you try to communicate how dangerous something is, there is never perfect communication. It lacks consistency from the player's PoV, making it very hard for them to predict if they are outmatched. Whereas they can gently test their toes in an area and then retreat if it's too much, but keep going if it's not, if (at least some) areas are level constrained. That's not to say everything should be level constrained. The traditional divide for D&D is Wilderness is not constrained, and Dungeons are.

It's also not to say that players should KNOW what the level constraints for creatures / challenges in a "Dungeon" are.

[mgshamster]

Are the chase rules any good? They look a bit clunky, but I haven't tried them.

I've done chase rules as is and I've done some modified versions I've found on the web.

They're... Ok. Just ok.

They're not bad as long as you understand that's it's an abstraction. More importantly, however, is that you're players understand that it's an abstraction.

The chase rules are almost literally a mini-game where you're limited in your actions. Players who ignore this and try to treat a chase scene as they do every other part of the game will get annoyed and frustrated. Players who don't try to do unique things and just follow the rules of the chase scene have had more fun.

So on one hand, it works well enough for what it's supposed to do. But on the other hand, it's constraining and limits player options (also DM options) during the chase.

With that, once everyone understands that it's limiting and they stop trying to "break" it (intentionally or unintentionally), they tend to enjoy it more. The first time I used the chase rules, half the players hated the rules despite the scene. The second time I used it, everyone ignored their complaints and simply enjoyed the scene.

I got a lot better positive feedback the second time, as I and my players learned the purpose of the chase scene rules.

I hope that makes sense.

[Tanarii]

With that, once everyone understands that it's limiting and they stop trying to "break" it (intentionally or unintentionally), they tend to enjoy it more. The first time I used the chase rules, half the players hated the rules despite the scene. The second time I used it, everyone ignored their complaints and simply enjoyed the scene.Yeah, chase rules won't work if your players are still thinking in strict initiative terms. Also, there's no way I'd try to switch back and forth as needed if I ran a battle-mat games. It really only works well for TotM. Otherwise you need to treat them as 2 different kinds of mini-games. So you end up having to do both a "Combat Swoosh" and a "Chase Swoosh".

[Knaight]

One of the better ways to communicate an option is to have enemies use it - if NPCs and monsters always fight to the death, the players are likely to as well. If retreat is a fairly standard procedure for anything with at least animal level intellect, not so much.

[Pex]

One of the better ways to communicate an option is to have enemies use it - if NPCs and monsters always fight to the death, the players are likely to as well. If retreat is a fairly standard procedure for anything with at least animal level intellect, not so much.

This unfortunately has a side effect of some players getting upset they're retreating and won't let them. They might even chase after them. After all, they'll come back with reinforcements or at least tell the BBEG all about the party. There's also the loot they still have. If a bad guy uses a magic item the players really like and want but he runs away with that item? That's the true fury Hell does not have. :smallyuk:

As for me, sometimes guilty. :smallredface:

Thankfully most players and DMs understand that if the bad guys do retreat the PCs still at least get full XP for defeating them.

[Sigreid]

This unfortunately has a side effect of some players getting upset they're retreating and won't let them. They might even chase after them. After all, they'll come back with reinforcements or at least tell the BBEG all about the party. There's also the loot they still have. If a bad guy uses a magic item the players really like and want but he runs away with that item? That's the true fury Hell does not have. :smallyuk:

As for me, sometimes guilty. :smallredface:

Thankfully most players and DMs understand that if the bad guys do retreat the PCs still at least get full XP for defeating them.

The golden rule, no live witnesses.

Rule number 2, double tap, no rematches.