Song of the White Raven Crusader Eternal Blade optimisation

[Thaneus]

Unfortunately my last Character died after 2 salves of arrows and after that eaten by an old black dragon (no corpse no equipment) since i insulted him in the fight (casted ottos irresistible dance on him).

Since several other guys died too and the two survivors surrendered we came up with new characters.

As sated its a Song of the white Raven Crusader + Eternal blade build

Race Halfe Elf (obvious since we enforce multiclass penalty)

Level: Bard1; Crusader8; Warblade2; Eternal blade9 || Crusader1; Bard1; Crusader8; Warblade1; Eternal Blade9
Template: Phrenic (LA Buyoff)

Statts: Str 16; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14(16); Wis 8(10); Cha 12(16)
All add statts to Str (start with 13,5 buyouff reduces to 12 Level -> +3 Str)

Feats:
1. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack (Flaw), Stand Still(Flaw)
3. Weaponfocus Greatsword
6. Extra Granted Maneuver
9. Song of the White Raven
12. Words of Creation
15. Robilars Gambit
18. Overwhelming Assault

Stances:
Crusader 1: Leading the Charge (White) @ 1
Crusader 2: Iron Guard’s Glare (Devo) @ 3
Crusader 7: Thicket of Blades (Devo) @ 8

Warblade 1: Stance of Clarity (Diamond) @ 10 -> Pearl of Black Doubt might be better here?

Eternal Blade 5: Immortal Fortitude (Devo) @ level 16

Maneuvers;
Vanguard Strike (Devo 1) @ Crusader 1
Leading the Attack (White 1) @ Crusader 1
Mountain Hammer (Stone 2) @ Crusader 3
White Raven Tactics (White 3) @ Crusader 1 -> changed @ 4
Revitalizing Strike (Devo 3) @ Crusader 5
Divine Surge (Devo 4) @ Crusader 1 changed @ 6
Covering Strike (White 4) @ Crusader 7
Flanking Maneuver (White 5) @ Crusader 1 -> changed @ 8
Radiant Charge (Devo 5) @ Crusader 9


Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond 1) @ Warblade 1
Wall of Baldes (Iron 2) @ Warblade 1
Iron Heart Surge (Iron 3) @ Warblade 1
Ruby Nightmare Blade (Diamond 4) @ Warblade 2 -> gone

War Leader Charge (White 6) @ Eternal Blade 1
Clarion Call (White 7) @ Eternal Blade 3
White Raven Hammer (White 8) @ Eternal Blade 5
Strike of Righteous Vitality (Devo 9) @ Eternal Blade 7
Eternal Blade 9 i am still not sure what to take...

The level 0 Bard Spells: Resistence, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Mending, Prestigigation


Wealth as 13th (110000)

Items:
Head: Circlet of Persuation (MiC) 4,000
Face: Blindfold of true Darkness (MiC) 9,000
Throat: Badge of Valor (MiC) + Inspirational Boost (Spell SC) (3/day together only with bedge inspiration) + 2 CON (3600+1620+4000) = 9,220
Shoulder: Cloak Greater Resistance +3 = 9,000
Body: +1 Called lesser Fortified Feycaft Commander (CC) Easy Travel Speed (MiC) Mithral full plate (500+2000+2000+1500+10,500+4000) = 20,500 GP -30% 14350
Torso: Vest of Legend (DMG) 16,000 -30% 11200
Arms: Strongarm bracers (MiC) 6,000 GP
Hand: Gloves Of Strength +4 and Dextirity +2(16000 +4000) 20,000 GP -30% 14,000
Ring1: Ring of sustenance (MiC) 2,500 GP
Ring2: --
Waist: Healing Belt 750 GP
Feet: Sandals of the Vagabond (CC) + Boots of the Battle Charger (MiC) (2000*1,5+4000) 7,000GP
Weapon: +1 Adamantide Greatsword, sizing (MiC), Smoking (LoD) + Wand Chamber (3050 adamantite greatsword + 2000+ 8000 +100) = 13150

Iron ward diamond, lesser DR 3/—, prevents up to 30 damage per day 2,000
crystal of adaptation Lesser 1,500
revelation crystal lesser 1,000
Heward's Handy Haversack 2,000

**-30% Crusader restricted

Scholar’s outfit (free)
Traveler's outfit 1GP


Eternal Wand Enlarge Person 820 -> in weapon
Eternal Wand Grease 820 -> in Bag
Eternal Wand of Bening Transposition 820 -> Bag
Wand Cure Light Wounds 750 -> Bag
Masterwork Lute 100 GP -> Bag its gone and freed 100gp since no perform string anymore :(

Any better suggestions?

edit
updated it thanks to your input; changes in red

[Dagroth]

I see one problem.

Power Attack requires you to have BAB +1. Bard 1 doesn't give you that, so you'll have to swap when you take Weapon Focus & Power Attack in your build.

[Thaneus]

Thanks for pointing that out.... also realized i wont be able to take WoC until 15 because of the +5 will base save requirement... this hurts quite a lot.
I am pondering how i can get this down but i cant figure out a all suitable solution i need crusader 8 for thicket of blade stance which I want... bad
i could drop Warblade 2 but Ironheart surge and moment of perfect mind are also way to good... so for this drop uncanny dodge and the 4th maneuver and go crusader 9 warblade 1
will is now +5...
ok done with that.

Swapping out Bard 1 to crusader is an obvious choice but the skills get a very bad hit, very very since most skill i took as level 1 are all bard specific to 4 and left them there (UMD, Perform, Spellcraft to name a few) so it would be better to figure out how i can swap them in another order...
Weaponfocus -> needs BAB +1
Powerattack -> needs BAB +1
Song of the white Raven -> needs Maneuver
Extra Granted Meuver -> needs crusader
Words of creation -> needs will +5
combat reflexes and stand still is all solved with level 1... this is bad

[Gruftzwerg]

I am pondering how i can get this down but i cant figure out a all suitable solution i need crusader 8 for thicket of blade stance which I want... bad


You don't need crusader 8 for that.

Thicket of Blades is 3rd lvl stance.
You need an Crusader Initiator lvl of 5 to get it. So, even a Crusader 1/ other class 8 would have enough Crusader Initiator lvl to get it (via Martial Stance feat or a PRC who gives a stance with access to the discipline).

edit: to solve your problem the fast way (not the most optimized I guess), squeeze in 1-2 fighter lvl and rearrange feats (and thake the stance with Martial Stance feat, or rearrange the lvl up of crusader so that you get a new stance at the right character lvl).

edit2:
crusader 1st lvl > other classes 6 lvl > crusader 2nd lvl. Now you can take "Thicket of Blades" as stance granted by 2nd lvl Crusader.
edit3:
other class 6 / crusader 2 = you start with an Initiator lvl of 3 as crusader and can pick up to 2nd lvl maneuvers on your first crusader lvl.

[Thaneus]

Fighter would solve the feat issue certainly but the Will issue worsens.

I figured i have to bite the bullet and make crusader 1 Bard 1 Crusader 8 Warblade 1 eternal blade 9 to fix this.. my poor skills...
but with this its solved but leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

anything else?

edit:


edit2:
crusader 1st lvl > other classes 6 lvl > crusader 2nd lvl. Now you can take "Thicket of Blades" as stance granted by 2nd lvl Crusader.
wont do my friend, gm enforces multiclass penalty and bard 1 crusader 3 and any +1 bab class 5 will certainly falls into this

[Gruftzwerg]

why not take it as Eternal Blade stance?

[Thaneus]

why not take it as Eternal Blade stance?

at level 16?? way to late

edit:
i changed the setup and it turns out quite well
Radiant Charge (Crusader 9) instead of Ruby Nightmare Blade (the now gone Warblde 2) and swapping crusader 1 and bard 1 did the trick with the build but the skills, well i cant have everything cant i?

[Dagroth]

Remember that a Crusader 4/Warblade 4 has an initiator level of 8.

Since the highest level maneuver you're taking as a Warblade is 3rd, you could do this:

Crusader 1, Bard 1, Crusader 3, Warblade 1, Crusader 4, Warblade 1, Eternal Blade 9.

[Gruftzwerg]

Remember that a Crusader 4/Warblade 4 has an initiator level of 8.

Since the highest level maneuver you're taking as a Warblade is 3rd, you could do this:

Crusader 1, Bard 1, Crusader 3, Warblade 1, Crusader 4, Warblade 1, Eternal Blade 9.

You don't have one sole Initiator lvl when multiclassing into martial adept (base) classes.

Initiator lvls formula:
= base martial adept class + martial adept prc + (other base martial adept classes & prcs)/2
You only count the base martial class and martial adept prc as full on your initiator lvl. And base martial classes don't stack full on each other, only half the value!

A Crusader 4 / Warblade 4 has a initiator lvl of 6 as Crusader and as Warblade. He can take up to 3rd lvl maneuvers from his disciplines for both classes..

or a Crusader 7 / Swordsage 5 (example in the book p.39 - multiclassing):
Crusader Initiator lvl 9 & Swordsage Initiator lvl 8
He can have up to 5th lvl Crusader maneuvers and up to 4th lvl maneuvers as Swordsage.

You can look it up in ToB.

[Dagroth]

You don't have one sole Initiator lvl when multiclassing into martial adept (base) classes.

You can look it up in ToB.

Ah, yeah... I didn't read the whole entry.

Still, you could move the first level of Warblade down to character level 9 for:

Crusader 1, Bard 1, Crusader 6, Warblade 1, Crusader 1, Warblade 1, Eternal Blade 9

That way the 3rd Crusader Stance (at Cru8) can be a 5th level Stance (Not that you care, since you want Thicket of Blades).

Of course, if you don't care about Steely Resolve 15, then go this route:
Cru-1, Bard-1, Cru-3, Ftr-1 (Martial Stance as 5th level Cru), Cru-2, War-2, Cru-1 (5th level Maneuver), Eternal Blade 9

The real bummer about your build is you're only able to Inspire Courage 1/day.

I'm trying to fit more Bard levels in, but your desire for Iron Heart Surge gets in the way.

[Thaneus]

The Bardic Music is covered thanks to ruling hat bard can have nice things too (see nightsticks cleriks) so laterone for 7k i have 5 uses per day

The suggestions seem all to forget the will 5 requirenment for WoC though so either i need bard 2, warblade 3 or crusader 9 to get a +5 on will

[Gruftzwerg]

The Bardic Music is covered thanks to ruling hat bard can have nice things too (see nightsticks cleriks) so laterone for 7k i have 5 uses per day

The suggestions seem all to forget the will 5 requirenment for WoC though so either i need bard 2, warblade 3 or crusader 9 to get a +5 on will

Do you use fractional saves?

1st lvl of bard gives you good will save +2 (instead of normal 0.5 for good on lvl up)
9 further lvl of poor will progress will earn you the remaining +3 (= 9 x 1/3)
Bard 1 / poor will save classes 9 = +5 base (fractional) save

note: you don't need to take the bard at character lvl 1, you get the +2 bonus the first time you get a good bonus in a save (at whatever character lvl that might be)

[Firechanter]

Why are you forfeiting the Eternal Blade Capstone? Isn't that the very reason why you'd even want that PrC, if you're skilling for level 20 anyway?

Just off the cuff, I'd have a look at Crs 1, Brd 1, Crs +6, Wbd 1, Crs +1, EB 10.

Ah, silly me, that won't work b/c of BAB prereq...

Haven't looked at the maneuver progression, but you'll definitely want Time Stands Still for maximum synergy.

What you could do: ask your DM if a Paladin with From Smite to Song counts for Song of White Raven. Replace Bard level with this. Presto.

[Dagroth]

Haven't looked at the maneuver progression, but you'll definitely want Time Stands Still for maximum synergy.

What you could do: ask your DM if a Paladin with From Smite to Song counts for Song of White Raven. Replace Bard level with this. Presto.

I thought of that, but he's very Feat-starved. He'd have to lose the Extra Granted Maneuver.

Edit: I just thought of the other reason he wasn't taking Bard at 1st level and swapping Weapon Focus & Power Attack. Bards don't get proficiency with Greatswords.

But then, he can just take Weapon Focus with anything at all... since Warblade will allow him to switch it to Greatsword.

[Doctor Awkward]

Weapon Focus also requires a BAB of +1

[sage20500]

Levels of Eternal Blade won't count towards your Song of the White Raven levels. Warblade and Crusader do, but Eternal Blade won't, so with that current set up you have you'd only count as an 11th level Bard.

Out of curiosity, is Dragon Fire Inspiration not available for you to pick up? I know most song of the white raven builds generally want to get that for all of the extra damage dice it can pick up.

[Firechanter]

I really really don't get that Hype about DFI. You effectively pay 2 Feats for a benefit of 0.5 points of damage per regular point of Inspire Courage.
The only regime where DFI becomes good is when you have more than one Bard within earshot b/c then you can stack the inspirations. Otherwise, it's rubbish.

[Dagroth]

I really really don't get that Hype about DFI. You effectively pay 2 Feats for a benefit of 0.5 points of damage per regular point of Inspire Courage.
The only regime where DFI becomes good is when you have more than one Bard within earshot b/c then you can stack the inspirations. Otherwise, it's rubbish.

True... and: 1) DFI is usually Fire damage, one of the most common resists in the game. 2) DFI damage isn't increased on a crit, while IC damage is. 3) IC gives a bonus to hit, DFI does not.

Edit: It's a little ironic that a person who goes by "Firechanter" isn't big on DragonFire Inspiration. :smallbiggrin:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I really really don't get that Hype about DFI. You effectively pay 2 Feats for a benefit of 0.5 points of damage per regular point of Inspire Courage.
The only regime where DFI becomes good is when you have more than one Bard within earshot b/c then you can stack the inspirations. Otherwise, it's rubbish.

+2.5, not .5. A d6 averages 3.5 while IC gives +1 and scales from there. If your to hit is high enough the loss of to hit from IC to DFI is trivial and you can change the energy type to something nice like sonic (nom nom objects). The thing about DFI is that it works best as part of a build designed to use it specifically, not tacked on.

[Particle_Man]

Levels of Eternal Blade won't count towards your Song of the White Raven levels. Warblade and Crusader do, but Eternal Blade won't, so with that current set up you have you'd only count as an 11th level Bard.


On the upside, if you drop Eternal Blade, you could pick human as your race and get an extra feat.

[Firechanter]

True... and: 1) DFI is usually Fire damage, one of the most common resists in the game. 2) DFI damage isn't increased on a crit, while IC damage is. 3) IC gives a bonus to hit, DFI does not.

Edit: It's a little ironic that a person who goes by "Firechanter" isn't big on DragonFire Inspiration. :smallbiggrin:

ad 2: true. Well, about 50% of the 3.5 MM entries are crit-immune anyway so it's probably not a big deal. Where crits apply, a non-critfishing build makes the benefit shrink to 0.2 damage on average, I suppose.

And heh, now that you're saying it. ^^ My username is inspired not by Dragonfire, though, but by a filk song. ^^


+2.5, not .5. A d6 averages 3.5 while IC gives +1 and scales from there. If your to hit is high enough the loss of to hit from IC to DFI is trivial and you can change the energy type to something nice like sonic (nom nom objects). The thing about DFI is that it works best as part of a build designed to use it specifically, not tacked on.

Wroooooong.
[bet you read that in a particularly orange voice ;) ]
See Dagroth. You get a bonus To Hit. You can convert that bonus to 2x damage with Power Attack, which the build discussed here has, so each IC point is worth 3 points of damage. What DFI does is give up that flexibility of using that really high To Hit bonus when you are dealing with really high AC, or simply scale it to your needs on a round-by-round basis.

This discussion seems to come up every week. Last time someone objected that Power Attack maxes out at your BAB. I asked them to please show me the build that offers such a high To Hit at effective BAB=0 (i.e. max Power Attack) that increasing your To Hit would not improve your average damage against typical opponents. Because that would imply that your final iterative attack still hits on a Natural 2. They never replied. I repeat that challenge here.

Until presented with such evidence, I stand by what I said: DFI is rubbish unless you have at least two Performers in the party, and even then it's better to have one of them using regular IC and only the other one DFI (using Sonic, as you correctly pointed out).

[Thaneus]

Didn't i say the dm throws a lot of other dragons and half dragons monsters at us, most of them had been fire resistent or immune. This way DFI is a waste of a swift action and bardic music.



Levels of Eternal Blade won't count towards your Song of the White Raven levels. Warblade and Crusader do, but Eternal Blade won't, so with that current set up you have you'd only count as an 11th level Bard.

Out of curiosity, is Dragon Fire Inspiration not available for you to pick up? I know most song of the white raven builds generally want to get that for all of the extra damage dice it can pick up.

I know but thanks to Vest of Legends i have at least IC +3 (Count as Bard 16). IF we go anywhere past epic in maybe 5 years i consider more crusader level anyway to get mettle and more steely resolve. I don't see any benefit to go Eternal Blade past its 10th level. So basically IC will proceed to move on at Level 22 and this 5 level less then a pure bard.


Do you use fractional saves?

1st lvl of bard gives you good will save +2 (instead of normal 0.5 for good on lvl up)
9 further lvl of poor will progress will earn you the remaining +3 (= 9 x 1/3)
Bard 1 / poor will save classes 9 = +5 base (fractional) save

note: you don't need to take the bard at character lvl 1, you get the +2 bonus the first time you get a good bonus in a save (at whatever character lvl that might be)

I wish we would but we do not (on partial BAB or saves i could have used a Swordsage level to fix the Will problem right of the bat and get some beefy shadowhand movement enhancers)

About the 1st level bard thing, i wanted it to get some skills up and running before i switch to the less classy Crusader, Warblade and co. Dunno why you bring the +2 Will save up though.


On the upside, if you drop Eternal Blade, you could pick human as your race and get an extra feat.
And i could have dropped Song of the white Raven and bard and go full 5WB/5CR 10 Eternal Blade, but that would be to easy, wouldn't it?

No, the primary concept is a aiding protector who can coordinate his allys on the battlefield (White Raven) and inspire (inspire courage) them with valor and encouragement and be a shining beacon of faith (crusader) for the hopeless in the dark times.
And thanks to this devotion he is granted the knowledge by his elven ancestor as a guide

This concept could have been realized in other ways I know. But this had the best ring to it I came up to.
But as i said thanks to all who were willing to show me other options.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wroooooong.
[bet you read that in a particularly orange voice ;) ]
See Dagroth. You get a bonus To Hit. You can convert that bonus to 2x damage with Power Attack, which the build discussed here has, so each IC point is worth 3 points of damage. What DFI does is give up that flexibility of using that really high To Hit bonus when you are dealing with really high AC, or simply scale it to your needs on a round-by-round basis.

Only if you have power attack. That is easy to ensure, but remember this is a team game. So any time your allies lack power attack the numbers swing heavily in favor of DFI.


This discussion seems to come up every week. Last time someone objected that Power Attack maxes out at your BAB. I asked them to please show me the build that offers such a high To Hit at effective BAB=0 (i.e. max Power Attack) that increasing your To Hit would not improve your average damage against typical opponents. Because that would imply that your final iterative attack still hits on a Natural 2. They never replied. I repeat that challenge here.

Until presented with such evidence, I stand by what I said: DFI is rubbish unless you have at least two Performers in the party, and even then it's better to have one of them using regular IC and only the other one DFI (using Sonic, as you correctly pointed out).

Done: I am a necropolitan.
Also please do not compare the most optimal scenario to yours and declare yours the winner while ignoring its downsides: PA means you are more MAD than DFI; DFI's numbers sky rocket if people don't have PA; DFI works on builds where you aren't meleeing whereas PA ONLY works if you are meleeing; morale bonuses are blocked by Mindblank and similar immunities. I am sure there are more, but these shows that PA is not the perfect magical superior solution since some of these problems are hard to fix.

[Darrin]

Until presented with such evidence, I stand by what I said: DFI is rubbish unless you have at least two Performers in the party, and even then it's better to have one of them using regular IC and only the other one DFI (using Sonic, as you correctly pointed out).

This view does not appear to me to be a reasonable or coherent position. Outside of the problems with relying on Power Attack charges, the most distinctive feature of DFI is that it is a force-multiplier applied to the entire *party*. The benefits of DFI scale up as you add more allies with more attacks. I don't see how that really compares to a single ubercharger using Power Attack. DFI also applies to ranged attacks, and isn't limited to 30' like most precision damage buffs. Outside of Bloodstorm Blade, Power Attack can only be used on melee attacks.

OP: Have you considered Warrior Skald (Races of Faerun)? Takes three feats (Apprentice, Power Attack, Cleave), but you can finish out Eternal Blade 10.