Mage 20 optimized build help

[xkroku]

Hi
So i had a discussion with a friend a while ago, about whether Fighter 20 could win with Wizard 20. I was on the Wizard side, and in the end, we'll put it to test. He'll build a Fighter 20, I'll build Wiz 20. And I have built him, Desert Kobold Conjurer 20, with Immediate Magic, 36 Int and the like. But I'm not satisfied wuth it, besides, I haven't got much tactics AND I have aboslutely no experience in playing high-level characters. So I'm calling for help.

I have to be Wizard 20, with feats every odd level, plus two flaws allowed.
I can use every book existing, but no Dragon Magazine or the like.
I have 760k gp to spend and all traits of a 20-level character.
Spells known play no role

So, please help me with the build and tactics, Thank you!

Edit: I'm nearly sure he'll use Mirror of Opposition...
Edit 2: No custom magic items
Edit 3: So, based on answers I plotted this:
(We can cast immediate before initiative)

Round 0 (initiative)
-Cast Celerity
-Cast Limited Wish->Favour of the Martyr
-Cast Clelerity Again
-Cast Time Stop
-*Buff myseld, probably Elemental Body, Limited Wish->Sign (auto 20 on initiative), and something else if i can fit it*
-Cast Nerveskitter
Initiative is about auto 80 now

Round 1, probably win initiative
-Celerity->Standard Action cast Extended Time Stop
-and i'm free to act, probably never allowing the Fighter to take turn.
Is this allowed?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Mirror of Opposition
If he uses that, it's not the Fighter beating the Mage, it's an item. No reason why you couldn't use one yourself, but that's just... Money vs Money, not Fighter vs Mage.

[Melcar]

Hi
So i had a discussion with a friend a while ago, about whether Fighter 20 could win with Wizard 20. I was on the Wizard side, and in the end, we'll put it to test. He'll build a Fighter 20, I'll build Wiz 20. And I have built him, Desert Kobold Conjurer 20, with Immediate Magic, 36 Int and the like. But I'm not satisfied wuth it, besides, I haven't got much tactics AND I have aboslutely no experience in playing high-level characters. So I'm calling for help.

I have to be Wizard 20, with feats every odd level, plus two flaws allowed.
I can use every book existing, but no Dragon Magazine or the like.
I have 760k gp to spend and all traits of a 20-level character.
Spells known play no role

So, please help me with the build and tactics, Thank you!

Edit: I'm nearly sure he'll use Mirror of Opposition...
Edit 2: No custom magic items

How prepared can you be for the fight?

Here are a few options. They all assume you win the initiative, you are invisible and flying. (You wint the initiative by having Moment of Prescience on you and Foresight and greater celerity( make sure to be immune to stunning (by favor of the martyr, which can be cast via limited wish)




1) timestop and then just chain gate-in solars!

2) make a gate to some nasty place right under him.

3) forcecage and maw of chaos

4) create a wall around him, fill it with water, let him drown

I'm unsure of your level of optimization but that is just a few options....

For a more I beat you so har into the ground is not even funny... call Tippy and have him show you a trick or two! ;)

EDIT: That Mirror can be disjoined by Mordenkainen's Disjunction

[xkroku]

If he uses that, it's not the Fighter beating the Mage, it's an item. No reason why you couldn't use one yourself, but that's just... Money vs Money, not Fighter vs Mage.

Well, playing without money is out of question, because Fighters somewhat depend on money.

It's Money+Wizard vs Money+Fighter :)

If you havo some rule to add to that, please say

[Gellhorn]

Note that the mirror of opposition only works what, 4 times a day and requires the victim to see their reflection? That sounds like there's a fair few ways to bypass it, whether by an inability to see your reflection, or through triggering it 4 times before you show up (assuming he only has 4, after all).

Of course, you could show him how a wizard can do a mirror of opposition without needing an item, and make a few ice assassins...

[xkroku]

I'm unsure of your level of optimization but that is just a few options....

I hope to get as optimized as you can get with plain Wizard

Thank you gor siggestions :)

[Gusmo]

Important questions. Can moment of prescience (PHB spell) be used for initiative? Are you allowed to go in with buffs active? A reasonable ruling regarding buffs might be that if you've got a way to make it last 15 hours per day (wizards need 8 hours of rest and 1 hour to prepare spells, 24-9=15), then you're allowed it entering the fight. So anything that you can get to last 15+ hours, you're not going to wait to cast it, you'd just cast it at the start of your day, before hopping into your mage's mansion at night. If you're not allowed buffs going in, argue he also isn't allowed to have any martial stances active or be wearing armor going in. Is going into pocket planes allowed during the fight, as long as the entrance to the pocket plane is within your battlefield? If your'e allowed to go into pocket planes, then you could just hop into a rope trick, then shapechange into a nightmare and send an endless stream of astral projection clones of yourself at him. If he uses the mirror of opposition on one of your astral projection clones, just dismiss the astral projection, which wastes a use of the mirror. Every astral projection clone of yourself that you send out will effectively be a refreshed version of yourself with all your spells and so forth, so unless your opponent is very clever, you're likely set if you can hole up in a rope trick.

[Coretron03]

First, Duels are bad for establishing balance between classes. Second, win initiative (from nerve skitter to Moment of Prescience it isn't hard) and cast disjunction. Then cast your choice of save or die. Have some all day buffs like the heart of X line of spells and overland flight. Jack up your save DC's with spell focus. Continue on with your day. Wasteful? Yes. Works? Double yes.

Want to soundly thrash him? Take levels in initiate of the sevenfold veil for veils. Incase yourself/him in a wall of nope. Dip mindbender for telepathy and take mindsight so he can't hide. Win.

Depends on how optmized you want to be really for a exact build, though with all books allowed it sounds higher then low OP.

Edit: Wait, Plain wizard? So no Prc's right? Well, eh you don't need them. Your have abrupt jaunt so he can't really touch you in melee and as along as you have overland flight and heart of X spells your In a good postion. I would also like the exact rules as, while unfair a wizard could planeshift back to his demi plane (make sure you have one) and scry the fighter until you bomb him with a tailor made spells prepared. Of course, probably not gonna fly but you said anything was on. Some other stuff

1 Take uncanny forethought (lords of madness) and cast ghouls glyph (Using reach spell to make 30ft ranged) and cast it as a fullround action under him and win (He'd probably be immune but it would still be funny, plus greater celerity lets you cast it effectively as a immediate action)

[Thaneus]

If he uses the mirror just by a Bilndfold of True Darkness and be done :)

Feats every odd level? also pure wizard?
Grap Spontaneous Divination (just because you took conjurer does not stop you to use Divination)

Take all +ini stuff in a contingency for a battle start -> you will go first
cast modekains disjunction on him
cast shapchange to whatever you like
eat up that sorry excuse of a fighter
done

[Uncle Pine]

You fear your opponent will use a mirror of opposition? Blow 50 gp on a psionic tattoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/psionicTattoos.htm) of Synesthete (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) (or several) and cast it before the fight, then shut your eye. Suddenly you can't "see" the mirror (although you can "feel" it) and your opponent has wasted 92,000 gp of his WBL. For comparison, that's 91,950 more than you did.

[jmax]

I just posted my new shapechange handbook in the "D&D 3e/3.5/d20" board. Take it for a spin - I expect you'll be able to counter almost anything he can do. Normally I advise treading carefully so as not to break the game, but since this is specifically an optimization duel... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: If you need to justify knowing about all those monsters, put all your skills in Knowledges that grant insight into creature abilities.

[lord_khaine]

You do know comming here to these boards asking for help invalidates the entire test?
Your getting help he isnt. Thats straight up cheating.

[Melcar]

Round 0 (initiative)
-Cast Celerity
-Cast Limited Wish->Favour of the Martyr
-Cast Clelerity Again
-Cast Time Stop
-*Buff myseld, probably Elemental Body, Limited Wish->Sign (auto 20 on initiative), and something else if i can fit it*
-Cast Nerveskitter
Initiative is about auto 80 now

Round 1, probably win initiative
-Celerity->Standard Action cast Extended Time Stop
-and i'm free to act, probably never allowing the Fighter to take turn.
Is this allowed?

I would say, that with celerity, and Moment of Precience, you dont need to buff your initiative during round 0, but thats just my take on it.

I would rather use round 0 to buff myself indestructible. But with the right combination of spells, he should never get he's turn.

Also, remember the following spells: Greater Ironguard, its unlikely that he will be thinking about using a non-metal weapon... Freezing Glance... Shivering Touch

[xkroku]

You do know comming here to these boards asking for help invalidates the entire test?
Your getting help he isnt. Thats straight up cheating.

It's not about who plays better, but about the power of the class. I just don't know all tge magic things that Wizard can do, I never played high level characters.

[Vizzerdrix]

I did this a few years back. Not to proove anything mind you, but to wipe the smug grins off a couple of players faces. We fought 3 rounds with complete resets in between. I took the first round with a forcecage, rock to mud, then mud to rock to bury him alive. Metamagiced evervation won me the second round, and metamagiced launch bolt won me the third.

Anyways, no matter how you do it, win initiative and break his toys. Hes just hit points after that.

[Zanos]

Sign was changed in Spell Compendium to give +4 initiative.

1. Cast foresight.
2. Cast overland flight.
3. Cast animate dead on a bunch of dead giants to create skeletons.
4. If you win initiative, proceed to 5. If you don't cast celerity. Foresight makes you never flat footed so you can take an immediate action.
5. Cast mage's disjunction.
6. As your huge 30+ str giant skeletons beat him to death, fly around while having some tea.

If you don't want to disjoin the fat loot you get from killing him, use permanency + arcane sight to identify all his buffs and magic items, then use a rod of chaining to hit all of his magic items and his buffs with targeted dispel magic, which will suppress all the items and strip buffs.

[Goladar]

How prepared can you be for the fight?

Here are a few options. They all assume you win the initiative, you are invisible and flying. (You wint the initiative by having Moment of Prescience on you and Foresight and greater celerity( make sure to be immune to stunning (by favor of the martyr, which can be cast via limited wish)




1) timestop and then just chain gate-in solars!

2) make a gate to some nasty place right under him.

3) forcecage and maw of chaos

4) create a wall around him, fill it with water, let him drown

I'm unsure of your level of optimization but that is just a few options....

For a more I beat you so har into the ground is not even funny... call Tippy and have him show you a trick or two! ;)

EDIT: That Mirror can be disjoined by Mordenkainen's Disjunction

How do you pay the XP cost if you're exactly 20th level?

[xkroku]

Thank you guys, I won.
I mean I totally destroyed him.

Won initiative, Extended Time Stop - Dimensional Lock - Forcecage - Maw of Chaos - 2xGate: Old Prismatic Dragon and they use Prismatic Spray until he dies

[Gandariel]

An even grander display of strength would be:

0) prepare one character sheet.
1) beat him
2) ask him to remove one of your spells or abilities (or remove one spell level)
3) beat him again, go back to 2)
4) when he finally beats you, show him how much stuff you had to lose before the fight was even remotely even.

It's fairly easy (and reasonable, really) to say "Ok fine, you tricked me with that one OP obscure thing".
Beating him ten times in ten different ways with the same character sheet is unexcusable proof of your character's superiority

[Swaoeaeieu]

Thank you guys, I won.
I mean I totally destroyed him.

Won initiative, Extended Time Stop - Dimensional Lock - Forcecage - Maw of Chaos - 2xGate: Old Prismatic Dragon and they use Prismatic Spray until he dies

what i wonder is how this debate even started in the first place. Why did you friend think a fighter (known for only being able to hit things) could win from a wizard (known for shaping reality at a whim)

[Thaneus]

Maybe it was more like he gave him a handicap like, "i take fighter and i am still better then you noob", well, which backfired, since he asked here, to get insight on what he can do.
Maybe he thought xkroku will just blast him with some nuke spells or something because he is new to this. Like "Polar Ray" 20d6 damage (70 dmg, fighter eats it) and then onehit kills him with a charge build, maybe.
There are a lot of ways to cripple a melee brute/fighter outright when a spell wielder knows he is coming, as we have seen. Fighter is just one of the worsted but it would have also worked if he had gone crusader 20 it is just a bit more challenging to win an obvious win.

[Goladar]

Thank you guys, I won.
I mean I totally destroyed him.

Won initiative, Extended Time Stop - Dimensional Lock - Forcecage - Maw of Chaos - 2xGate: Old Prismatic Dragon and they use Prismatic Spray until he dies

Where did you get the extra XP for the Calling function of Gate?

[ryu]

Where did you get the extra XP for the Calling function of Gate?

Could've just bought Ambrosia to act as crafting/spell casting XP. It's neither hard, nor expensive. Also makes a lot of sense in a one on one duel.

[Segev]

I always find it more interesting when the Playground puts its effort into mage-killer builds that use traditionally non-magic classes. The trouble is, unless the target mages are highly un-optimal, even the Playground generally has to give up on the effort after a while. Or resorts to tactics even a level 20 commoner could use, i.e. purchased items winning the fight for them.

[Deadline]

I always find it more interesting when the Playground puts its effort into mage-killer builds that use traditionally non-magic classes. The trouble is, unless the target mages are highly un-optimal, even the Playground generally has to give up on the effort after a while. Or resorts to tactics even a level 20 commoner could use, i.e. purchased items winning the fight for them.

Anthrowhale's EX Fighter is about the closest optimized fighter build I've seen that has a shot at beating a wizard. Of course, there was a tremendous amount of hoop-jumping to make it possible, and even then it still didn't give fantastic odds.

[Zanos]

Anthrowhale's EX Fighter is about the closest optimized fighter build I've seen that has a shot at beating a wizard. Of course, there was a tremendous amount of hoop-jumping to make it possible, and even then it still didn't give fantastic odds.
The ExFighter just shows that spells are powerful even when applied to characters that don't cast spells themselves. The first 20 steps of the ExFighter are "hire wizard or psion with very specific magic items to hand you the power to resist their abilities in exchange for comparatively small sums of gold."

It's RAW, sure, but it's actually more a demonstration of the power of spellcasters and WBL than anything else.

[Segev]

Were I designing a D&D edition, it would be a goal of mine to make fighters (and, to a lesser extent, rogues) more efficient and generally better targets for wizardly (and clerical) buffs than anything else. Sure, a wizard can bind a Vrock or a Hound Archon, and then buff that, but the fighter in his party should not only cost less in terms of having to do the binding, but should be BETTER when buffed with the wizard's magic than the wizard's called minion(s).

[Dagroth]

Were I designing a D&D edition, it would be a goal of mine to make fighters (and, to a lesser extent, rogues) more efficient and generally better targets for wizardly (and clerical) buffs than anything else. Sure, a wizard can bind a Vrock or a Hound Archon, and then buff that, but the fighter in his party should not only cost less in terms of having to do the binding, but should be BETTER when buffed with the wizard's magic than the wizard's called minion(s).

Well... reduce the maximum CR of creature that gets summoned/Gated would be a great start there.

A 16th level character should not be able to get a CR 20 creature's attention beyond it telling one of it's minions to "go see what that Cleric/Wizard/Mortal wants".

[Melcar]

How do you pay the XP cost if you're exactly 20th level?

AFAIR the poster did not specify how much exp they had, I therefore assume to have enough to be a functioning level 20 wizard. That would include at least some thousands of exp for stuff like wish and gate. Furthermore, this is duel, where the different abilities are tested. Can't really test a wizards full power without exp to burn - IMO that is.

Thirdly, who cares. The wizard could blast a level 20 out the sky at level 1 - with the right amount of abuse.


Well... reduce the maximum CR of creature that gets summoned/Gated would be a great start there.

A 16th level character should not be able to get a CR 20 creature's attention beyond it telling one of it's minions to "go see what that Cleric/Wizard/Mortal wants".

Erm.. My level 16 wizard could level an army of level 20s, why do you assume 4 levels matter that much? Most lords, guildmasters, arch-clerics and what not are below or around level 16. And just because you're level 20 does not mean your an aloof, abstract form of being, who no longer can fathom the life of mortals. You do not become Dr. Manhattan or Galactus at level 20.

[Dagroth]

Erm.. My level 16 wizard could level an army of level 20s, why do you assume 4 levels matter that much? Most lords, guildmasters, arch-clerics and what not are below or around level 16. And just because you're level 20 does not mean your an aloof, abstract form of being, who no longer can fathom the life of mortals. You do not become Dr. Manhattan or Galactus at level 20.

A CR 23 being (like, for example, a Solar) or a CR 20 being (like, for example, a Balor) should be way too busy, or aloof, or important to be summoned by a mortal. A Solar would probably send an Astral Deva at best to see if the situation was important enough... or simply use one of its own Cleric Spells to see if the situation was important enough for it to come personally. A Balor might show up if you knew its Name, but would certainly even then do everything it could to corrupt/cheat/kill the summoner. More likely it will send a lowly to see if the deal that the summoner wants to make is worth his time.

[Melcar]

A CR 23 being (like, for example, a Solar) or a CR 20 being (like, for example, a Balor) should be way too busy, or aloof, or important to be summoned by a mortal. A Solar would probably send an Astral Deva at best to see if the situation was important enough... or simply use one of its own Cleric Spells to see if the situation was important enough for it to come personally. A Balor might show up if you knew its Name, but would certainly even then do everything it could to corrupt/cheat/kill the summoner. More likely it will send a lowly to see if the deal that the summoner wants to make is worth his time.

Unfortunately for them, they are forced through by the magic of Gate, so they have no choice... poor servants of mortal wizards...

[Dagroth]

Unfortunately for them, they are forced through by the magic of Gate, so they have no choice... poor servants of mortal wizards...

Which is why I say that the maximum level of creature able to be summoned/gated/whatever should be lowered.

[Melcar]

Which is why I say that the maximum level of creature able to be summoned/gated/whatever should be lowered.

I always force my players to know the creatures ingame for them to be able to summon them. Alas, its not a great restriction but it does hinder the most nasty of creatures.

[Kutruel]

I just posted my new shapechange handbook in the "D&D 3e/3.5/d20" board. Take it for a spin - I expect you'll be able to counter almost anything he can do. Normally I advise treading carefully so as not to break the game, but since this is specifically an optimization duel... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: If you need to justify knowing about all those monsters, put all your skills in Knowledges that grant insight into creature abilities.

can you share the link of the handbook?

[Zanos]

I always force my players to know the creatures ingame for them to be able to summon them. Alas, its not a great restriction but it does hinder the most nasty of creatures.
It certainly makes sense, but wizards particularly tend to have quite high knowledge checks.

[Coretron03]

can you share the link of the handbook?

Not the creator, but here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517934-The-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook

[Krobar]

A friend of mine and I tried that. I had the wizard. Stock wiz 20, with Greater Teleport, Wish, and Craft Contingent Spell. And a Necklace of Strangulation. I had one contingent spell, a greater Teleport to my safe house immediately upon someone making an offensive move against me. He could have any items he wanted.

That happened, then I wished for this necklace to immediately appear around the neck of the guy that just began to attack me.

He didn't see that coming.

[SecretlyaFish]

Do some knowledge of the planes prep work. Find the deepest place of water you can find on the layer of the abyss Dagon and Demogorgon reside in. Disjunction him, paralyze him with a holding spell, open a gate to that place, throw the brightest light spell you can place on him, then use telekinesis to fling him through the gate and close it behind him.