The 3.5 Shapechange Handbook

[jmax]

NEW DISCUSSION THREAD LINK: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645863-3-5-Shapechange-Handbook-discussion-thread


Greetings, fellow munchkins!

Upon gaining access to shapechange for the first time, I discovered there wasn't a comprehensive guide to its use. So now there is!


The 3.5 Shapechange Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/127el4KqlL2ALu1chZ9WLPGFOu1InVTJ2pmxAmYAARbE/edit?usp=sharing)


A few notes:

It's quite long - I highly recommend turning on the Outline View so you can jump to a particular section you're interested in. It's not meant to be read cover to cover but rather used as a lookup resource during gameplay. If you aren't interested in my ramblings and want to cut straight to the meat, jump to page 6 or so.

Technically, this is still a work in progress, but I haven't made any major changes in several weeks, so I think it's time to post it. At some point I may redo some of the organization or add additional creatures, but probably not any time soon.

The handbook makes some assumptions regarding rules interpretations, all of which are detailed in the CL20 wall of text at the beginning. I'm definitely open to comments on my assumptions, but I'm unlikely to make major changes to the handbook in response.


So. Hopefully this is useful for people other than me. It's my first handbook, so apologies if it's a bit rough around the edges. Feedback is, of course, welcome. In particular, I'd love suggestions on bundling up some of the categories for individual spells.

Finally, remember that shapechange is easily game-breaking if you aren't careful. Try not to inspire your DM to throw source-books at me :smallsmile:

[Esprit15]

Your link seems to be missing its beginning.

Might I suggest taking a look at some other handbooks and using their format over simply linking a google doc?

[jmax]

I didn't have enough posts for the board to let me include a real link. It has a real one now.

The handbook is 70+ pages and has to be searched rather than read to use effectively - it would be unusable if I put it in forum posts.

[Buufreak]

Upon gaining access to shapechange for the first time, I discovered there wasn't a comprehensive guide to its use. So now there is!



This seems like less a "comprehensive guide" and far more a big list of things you could shift into to get x ability.

[jmax]

The key is organizing it by ability rather than by creature. I don't memorize all the forms I can use - instead, when I encounter a situation in game, I search the guide for the ability I need. (More realistically, since I remember most of the categories I put in, I find it in the Outline View.)

Need to stop someone from attacking without killing them? Check out "incapacitate". Immunity to certain energy types? Search for "immunity". Survive a powerful caster? Spell resistance.

Perhaps "handbook" isn't the best description for it. Should I call it a "combat reference" instead?

[Buufreak]

Perhaps "handbook" isn't the best description for it. Should I call it a "combat reference" instead?

Considering it is in google docs, why not a reference document? Certainly a more accurate statement.

[Esprit15]

Nixie's Grace appears to be a Bard spell, not Druid, by my searching.

[eggynack]

Seems really cool. Found some things you might want to change/add. Will-o'-wisp is a big one. You have it listed with that deflection bonus which I'm really not sure it gets (still not sure where the hell it comes from), and without its immunity to magic or invisibility, which I am sure it does get. You're missing a buncha creatures as well. Dire tortoise for its weird surprise round thing, for example. That one's a classic. Or zodar, for utter borkedness. And you mentioned not including casting, but the hobgoblin warsoul, for example, grants a type of casting that has an explicit ability type, so it's fair game. Kuo-toa exalted whip is probably more relevant, cause it grants cleric spells. Honestly, there's a lot of stuff I wouldn't bring up as not being included, but your standards for inclusion are rather low, so the lack of something like a shadow dragon for its fancy shadow blend seems like a miss. Really, a lot of the things I have on my aberration/dragon lists should probably pop up, as should some of the plant stuff, I think. Like, not necessarily on any shapechange list, but probably on one that prioritizes DR 10 to any meaningful extent. Oh, also, why do you have elemental weirds listed, but only mention five pretty low order effects? They have frigging contact other plane as a free action. It's amazing.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, shapechange is really really massive and really really complicated. There's a reason I wound up not including something on the order of what I did for various wild shape things or a few spells (animate with the spirit or fey ring, for example) for shapechange. Cause there's always more.

[jmax]

Nixie's Grace appears to be a Bard spell, not Druid, by my searching.

You are 100% correct. I put a tag in there for me to fix it as it requires re-working the rest of the paragraph.

EDIT: Fixed.



Seems really cool.

Thanks!



Found some things you might want to change/add. Will-o'-wisp is a big one. You have it listed with that deflection bonus which I'm really not sure it gets (still not sure where the hell it comes from), and without its immunity to magic or invisibility, which I am sure it does get.

It's in there. Everything is organized by ability rather than by creature. The natural invisibility is under the "Invisibility" section. Immunity to magic is under "Spell Resistance" - I originally had immunity to magic broken out as its own block, but will-o-wisp was the only creature with the ability. I'm trying to eliminate single-creature blocks because I feel they add a lot of clutter and are likely to be overlooked. Similarly, I'm trying to consolidate individual spells into related groups unless they're particularly iconic or well-known.




Oh, also, why do you have elemental weirds listed, but only mention five pretty low order effects? They have frigging contact other plane as a free action. It's amazing.


Ditto - it's all under the "Divination" block along with Warden Archon's automatic alignment detection and the Shiradi Eladrin's automatic detection of any enchantment effect within 20 feet.




...a lot of the things I have on my aberration/dragon lists...

There's a reason I wound up not including...

Aha! I knew I was missing a major handbook. I had yours conflated with eggs' Summoner's Desk Reference. I scoured your druid handbook pretty thoroughly a few months ago for picking my druid's higher level spells (druids are functionally spontaneous casters in that campaign - limited spells known, lots of castings). You have been added to the dedication :smallsmile: Hmm, I should link to the individual handbooks from there.



You're missing a buncha creatures as well. Dire tortoise for its weird surprise round thing, for example. That one's a classic. Or zodar, for utter borkedness. And you mentioned not including casting, but the hobgoblin warsoul, for example, grants a type of casting that has an explicit ability type, so it's fair game. Kuo-toa exalted whip is probably more relevant, cause it grants cleric spells. Honestly, there's a lot of stuff I wouldn't bring up as not being included, but your standards for inclusion are rather low, so the lack of something like a shadow dragon for its fancy shadow blend seems like a miss. Really, a lot of the things I have on my aberration/dragon lists should probably pop up, as should some of the plant stuff, I think. Like, not necessarily on any shapechange list, but probably on one that prioritizes DR 10 to any meaningful extent.

There are two aspects of this.

The game I made this for has a lot of the stranger monsters excluded from the setting, so I only really bothered with Core and otherwise monsters that appeared on summoning lists or that we'd specifically encountered in game (and of those, only the ones I felt were useful - Elemental Weird is the most notable). And some that happened to be nearby in the book that looked really slick - mostly angels, archons, and other celestials.
I'd already spent a few weeks' worth of evenings going through the SRD for monster entries, plus several more evenings adding the archons, angels, and other useful things from the summon lists (note that this game uses customized summon lists, so I may have included things not normally available). Combing through four more monster manuals and a bunch of splatbooks page by page wasn't particularly appealing, so I never got around to it.

However, that said, I am totally open to adding individual creatures that are particularly noteworthy. When I get time, I'll go through your Dragon and Aberration Wild Shape sections. Meanwhile, if you could make a short list of major ones you think I'm missing (in addition to what you mentioned above), I'll put priority toward including those. Fair warning - some of them *coughzodarcough* will go in the "Cheese" block.

Regarding spellcasting... honestly, I feel that those were probably marked that way erroneously. But I can throw in a spellcasting block with caveat text saying that it's totally reasonable for DMs to say no.

[eggynack]

It's in there. Everything is organized by ability rather than by creature. The natural invisibility is under the "Invisibility" section. Immunity to magic is under "Spell Resistance" - I originally had immunity to magic broken out as its own block, but will-o-wisp was the only creature with the ability. I'm trying to eliminate single-creature blocks because I feel they add a lot of clutter and are likely to be overlooked. Similarly, I'm trying to consolidate individual spells into related groups unless they're particularly iconic or well-known.
Fair enough. Thought I'd searched all of these on creature name. The AC thing is still a thing though.




Ditto - it's all under the "Divination" block along with Warden Archon's automatic alignment detection and the Shiradi Eladrin's automatic detection of any enchantment effect within 20 feet.

Yes and no. You have them listed with other divinations, but you only make explicit note of two of them.



Aha! I knew I was missing a major handbook. I had yours conflated with eggs' Summoner's Desk Reference. I scoured your druid handbook pretty thoroughly a few months ago for picking my druid's higher level spells (druids are functionally spontaneous casters in that campaign - limited spells known, lots of castings). You have been added to the dedication :smallsmile: Hmm, I should link to the individual handbooks from there.

Neat. Either way, the list I have is at least somewhat incomplete for this purpose, specifically regarding Su abilities on aberrations, and dragons bigger than medium. Should be useful in a subset sense, in that anything accessible through wild shape is still accessible through shapechange.



The game I made this for has a lot of the stranger monsters excluded from the setting, so I only really bothered with Core and otherwise monsters that appeared on summoning lists or that we'd specifically encountered in game (and of those, only the ones I felt were useful - Elemental Weird is the most notable). And some that happened to be nearby in the book that looked really slick - mostly angels, archons, and other celestials.

I'd already spent a few weeks' worth of evenings going through the SRD for monster entries, plus several more evenings adding the archons, angels, and other useful things from the summon lists (note that this game uses customized summon lists, so I may have included things not normally available). Combing through four more monster manuals and a bunch of splatbooks page by page wasn't particularly appealing, so I never got around to it.
Yeah, wasn't sure where the line was. A shapechange list would take crazy time.



Regarding spellcasting... honestly, I feel that those were probably marked that way erroneously. But I can throw in a spellcasting block with caveat text saying that it's totally reasonable for DMs to say no.
It's a weird situation, though I think they're the only creatures with that kinda naming assigned to their casting, beyond the difference in ability type.

[jmax]

Fair enough. Thought I'd searched all of these on creature name. The AC thing is still a thing though.

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. Gloom has the same thing. I figured it should be lumped in given that it's obviously not spell-like, spellcasting, or a feat - in absence of other guidance, I'm treating it as an Extraordinary Special Quality that isn't explicitly called out because it's purely numerical. In terms of its place in the stat block, it feels like it should count for the same reason natural armor does. (Ditto for Gloom's insight bonus.) You're right, though, that it merits marking explicitly on both.



Yes and no. You have them listed with other divinations, but you only make explicit note of two of them.

What are you seeing there? I wonder if the whole document is loading for you. Here's the full text I see:


Duplicate any of the following spells as free actions:

Analyze dweomer
Clairaudience/clairvoyance
Contact other plane
Detect thoughts
Discern location
Find the path
Foresight
Greater scrying
Legend lore
Locate creature
Locate object
Tongues
True seeing
Vision


If only part of the document is loading, that would also explain why you didn't see the other entries for Will-o-wisp the first time through. But if it's a common problem, I may need to find a new format if I want it to be useful for a large audience.



Neat. Either way, the list I have is at least somewhat incomplete for this purpose, specifically regarding Su abilities on aberrations, and dragons bigger than medium. Should be useful in a subset sense, in that anything accessible through wild shape is still accessible through shapechange.

It's certainly a good place to start, and while I'm in there I'll grab the Su abilities for them. I figured you might have other specifics for shapechange itself that you normally use during gameplay. I can also go through ksbsnowowl's and others' additions to TaisharMalkier's grand list of Su abilities for shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6595.msg99720#msg99720) to see if anything in particular stands out.



Yeah, wasn't sure where the line was. A shapechange list would take crazy time.

I think I'll draw the line after "Core + specifically mentioned excellent" forms. I think the marginal utility of finding incremental non-Core improvements over what's available with Core isn't worth either the time or the clutter. Now if there are whole specific types of solid abilities only available in the later Monster Manuals and splatbooks, that might be worth including.



It's a weird situation, though I think they're the only creatures with that kinda naming assigned to their casting, beyond the difference in ability type.

That's why I think it's likely an error. But there's another problem anyway, even if it is a bit of a technicality. There are three basic variations on spellcasting - prepared arcane, prepared divine, and spontaneous (arcane and divine work the same way). If the form has prepared arcane spells, you don't have the spellbook. If it has prepared divine spells, good luck getting the appropriate deity to grant them to you. If it has spontaneous casting, you don't actually know any of the spells. The only exceptions I can see to that are spontaneous casters with 100% fixed spell lists, which might imply the spells known are an inherent product of the race rather than learned. Technically, for wizard-style casting, you can make a Spellcraft check to attempt to prepare spells out of a captured or purchased spellbook, but I feel like that's really pushing it.



Would you be interested in contributing to the handbook, either new entries or just corrections/annotations of existing stuff? If so, send me a good email address in a private message and I'll add you with Suggestion/Commenting permissions.

You're also more than welcome to link to my handbook if you want extra information available in the shapechange spell description in yours.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I don't know what's up with that. Gloom has the same thing. I figured it should be lumped in given that it's obviously not spell-like, spellcasting, or a feat - in absence of other guidance, I'm treating it as an Extraordinary Special Quality that isn't explicitly called out because it's purely numerical. In terms of its place in the stat block, it feels like it should count for the same reason natural armor does. (Ditto for Gloom's insight bonus.) You're right, though, that it merits marking explicitly on both.
Yeah, I wound up just not talking about it, cause I like to stay away from completely uncategorized abilities.




What are you seeing there? I wonder if the whole document is loading for you. Here's the full text I see:
Thought that the bottom border on the page was the end of the entry. Whoops.



It's certainly a good place to start, and while I'm in there I'll grab the Su abilities for them. I figured you might have other specifics for shapechange itself that you normally use during gameplay. I can also go through ksbsnowowl's and others' additions to TaisharMalkier's grand list of Su abilities for shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6595.msg99720#msg99720) to see if anything in particular stands out.

I tend to not be in games at that high of a level. A lot of my information on shapechange optimization comes from Tippy's various mentions of the topic. And, y'know, logic and such. Part of why my entry for it is basically, "Full analysis of this spell is out of the scope of this handbook, because it'd take roughly infinite time to do. Here's a fancy Tippy quote." Another part is that the cheesy element of it kinda overwhelms the more normal uses, which is the reason I didn't cover epic stuff.




That's why I think it's likely an error.
Not really sure why. Normally, monster spellcasting has this really specific format. This time, the casting breaks that formatting, which implies that other breaks from the norm are intentional. If they wanted everything to be normal, they'd write it down the way they write it every time.


But there's another problem anyway, even if it is a bit of a technicality. There are three basic variations on spellcasting - prepared arcane, prepared divine, and spontaneous (arcane and divine work the same way). If the form has prepared arcane spells, you don't have the spellbook. If it has prepared divine spells, good luck getting the appropriate deity to grant them to you. If it has spontaneous casting, you don't actually know any of the spells. The only exceptions I can see to that are spontaneous casters with 100% fixed spell lists, which might imply the spells known are an inherent product of the race rather than learned. Technically, for wizard-style casting, you can make a Spellcraft check to attempt to prepare spells out of a captured or purchased spellbook, but I feel like that's really pushing it.
It looks like the warsoul is just doing bog standard wizarding. Which means you need to get that spellbook, but they're not impossible to come by. May not be worth it in the context of shapechange. I came by the trick largely in the context of MoMF, where it's more level appropriate and thus more worth pursuing. The whip, which does seem to just do the whole cleric thing, would I think be inclusive of the whole cleric deal. You have its fancy clericness, with all that implies.



Would you be interested in contributing to the handbook, either new entries or just corrections/annotations of existing stuff? If so, send me a good email address in a private message and I'll add you with Suggestion/Commenting permissions.

You're also more than welcome to link to my handbook if you want extra information available in the shapechange spell description in yours.
I'll consider it on both counts. Not sure yet.

[jmax]

Thought that the bottom border on the page was the end of the entry. Whoops.

Yeah, the lack of setting for the default view people see when they open the document is making me question Google Docs as a format for this. Defaulting to Print View and not showing the Outline are both suboptimal for a guide like this. I might be better off - on a number of levels - auto-generating HTML for a simple web-page. Or maybe I'll turn it into an actual web app, which I've been meaning to learn to do for a while anyway. Ooh, and from there it's an easy conversion to a mobile app... "Hey Siri, find me shapechange forms with fire immunity." Yay scope creep!



I tend to not be in games at that high of a level. A lot of my information on shapechange optimization comes from Tippy's various mentions of the topic. And, y'know, logic and such. Part of why my entry for it is basically, "Full analysis of this spell is out of the scope of this handbook, because it'd take roughly infinite time to do. Here's a fancy Tippy quote." Another part is that the cheesy element of it kinda overwhelms the more normal uses, which is the reason I didn't cover epic stuff.

There is definitely potential for too much cheese. It's one reason I didn't go looking for stuff like Zodar and why I have a few pages of advice on how not to break the game. In the game I'm playing, my character can get shapechange up to cap-breaking CL 26 (can squeeze out CL 27 next level if I work the numbers enough), so almost everything became viable right away. There's definitely stuff I don't use out of respect to my DM, and not all of it lives in the Cheese block.



Not really sure why. Normally, monster spellcasting has this really specific format. This time, the casting breaks that formatting, which implies that other breaks from the norm are intentional. If they wanted everything to be normal, they'd write it down the way they write it every time.

I just took a look at the Hobgoblin Warsoul, and I can see your point. The fluff text makes it clear that the spellcasting comes from ritual transformation rather than study. I'll throw in a "Spellcasting" block with the caveat that I think it probably shouldn't be used without getting specific DM approval.

Regarding the consistency... Wizards of the Coast has not demonstrated a great track record on that front, except for enforcing intellectual property rights :-P



I'll consider it on both counts. Not sure yet.

Ok, give me a shout if you decide you want in.

[Endarire]

Greetings, jmax!

This is a revised link to the MinMaxForum Shapechange Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6595.0). The one in your guide didn't work for me.

[jmax]

Fixed - thanks! I dealt personally with the MinMaxBoards changeover with a browser extension to auto-redirect, so I didn't notice because the change was transparent on my end. (But you're right - it was definitely broken without the auto-redirect.)

[Endarire]

Would a Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms 77) form assumed via shapechange give the ability to cast 1 spell per head per round since this casting is under "Spells?"

[Endarire]

A Hobgoblin Warsoul (Monster Manual V 87) explicitly gets Arcane Talent (Ex), or the ability to cast spells as a Wizard9. That seems worth adding.

Other notes:
-Lupinal (MMII 43) gets Dodge Missile 3/round which applies to any missile. Ask your GM if that also means rays, boulders, Hulking Hurler planets, etc.

[jmax]

Would a Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms 77) form assumed via shapechange give the ability to cast 1 spell per head per round since this casting is under "Spells?"

Eh... you could make an argument for it. The SRD hydra has the same problem with its "attack with all heads as a standard action" ability - it's not tagged with an ability type. Your bigger problem is going to be a lack of thumbs - unless you're a druid with Natural Spell.

As a DM, though, I'd be seriously leery about allowing it. Even by shapechange standards, that's pretty broken and probably belongs in Cheese. Certainly it's more potent than Chronotyryn.


A Hobgoblin Warsoul (Monster Manual V 87) explicitly gets Arcane Talent (Ex), or the ability to cast spells as a Wizard9. That seems worth adding.

Other notes:
-Lupinal (MMII 43) gets Dodge Missile 3/round which applies to any missile. Ask your GM if that also means rays, boulders, Hulking Hurler planets, etc.

I'll add the warsoul's casting, but my usual caveat (don't do it) applies. You'll also need a spellbook, and your DM should insist on Spellcraft checks as though casting out of another wizard's book.

Dodge Missile does indeed seem to be specifically eliminating the exceptions on Deflect Arrows. Neat.


I don't have time right now to make the changes, but I've put in notes to revisit them later. Thanks for the suggestions!

[ayvango]

Pump your caster level through the roof.
Does it really help? You still need to qualify for HD restriction? I believe the restriction from polymorph is inherited by the shapechange since it is worded "This spell functions like polymorph except and polymorph restricts form HD with your own HD.

[jmax]

Does it really help? You still need to qualify for HD restriction? I believe the restriction from polymorph is inherited by the shapechange since it is worded "This spell functions like polymorph except and polymorph restricts form HD with your own HD.

Yes.


This spell functions like alter self, except... The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.


This spell functions like polymorph, except... The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD).

The text in shapechange about maximum hit dice directly replaces the same text from polymorph, which directly replaces the same text from alter self. A particularly pedantic DM who really, really wants to nerf shapechange without banning it might argue that you end up with the intersection of all of the pieces that don't expressly conflict with each other, but it's a weak argument supported mostly by Rule Zero (GM fiat).

Also, while not directly relevant because it's inherently overwritten by the 3.5 printing, the 3.0 printing actually allowed up to double your caster level as the max HD, up to 50. I think it's reasonable to assert that, if the developers really intended to constrain it to your own hit dice, they would probably have spelled that out explicitly.

[ayvango]

You had mentioned wilding clasp. Shouldn't it work solely with wildshaping, and useless for polymophing?

P.S. Pyroclast dragon has disintegration line.

[jmax]

You had mentioned wilding clasp. Shouldn't it work solely with wildshaping, and useless for polymophing?

Hmm, strictly speaking that's correct - the item in Magic Item Compendium is specifically worded for use with Wild Shape. That said, you really don't even need the wilding clasps.

Armor and weapons aside - and a wilding clasp doesn't make the armor bonus available to you regardless - most equipment should Just Work even without a wilding clasp. Shapechange lets you wear/carry your equipment as long as it's physically possible, and Wondrous Items are mostly shape-agnostic as noted in MIC:

[QUOTE=Magic Item Compendium p219]Most of the time when a magic item is discovered, a character’s
size or shape shouldn’t be an issue...As a default rule, treat creatures of any shape as having all the
normal body slots available.

It then goes on to provide specific guidelines for restricting body slots on particularly unusual shapes - specifically creatures that are amorphous, armless, fingerless, headless, and legless. If your DM really wants to pause combat every round to adjudicate every shapechange form for whether it has the appropriate body slots for all of your gear (including manually recalculating all of your modifiers unless you have some very thorough and detailed automation going), that's her prerogative. I think it would be a much better compromise to just let you pay for wilding clasps and have them work in shapechange.

Personally, I do also prefer them for style - I feel like it would look silly to run around as a dragon with a purple cape and bangles.

That said, you're absolutely right that they do not strictly work as I've referenced them in the handbook. I've made a note for myself to correct it. Thank you for pointing it out!


P.S. Pyroclast dragon has disintegration line.

Non-core dragons are on my To-Do list. I just haven't gotten to them yet, partly because I can't use them in the game in which I have shapechange and partly because I haven't worked on the handbook much in the last month or two in general. If someone has a specific need for them, I can probably bang them out in the next few weeks if prodded occasionally.

[Endarire]

Consider the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm). Using its Alternate Form ability, it lets you transform into ANY creature of Large or smaller size and gain this form's (Ex) and (Su) abilities. Some Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) (epic creatures) are legal targets, including the time-manipulating Phane!

Getting even more complicated, a Phasm can turn into a Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) and grab the (Ex) effects of any non-deific creatures! Doing this requires a move action each round to maintain, but still may be worth it. (Island of Blades from Tome of Battle's Eternal Blade10 or Cunning Surge from Dungeonscape's Factotum8, anyone?)

[jmax]

Consider the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm). Using its Alternate Form ability, it lets you transform into ANY creature of Large or smaller size and gain this form's (Ex) and (Su) abilities. Some Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) (epic creatures) are legal targets, including the time-manipulating Phane!

Getting even more complicated, a Phasm can turn into a Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) and grab the (Ex) effects of any non-deific creatures! Doing this requires a move action each round to maintain, but still may be worth it. (Island of Blades from Tome of Battle's Eternal Blade10 or Cunning Surge from Dungeonscape's Factotum8, anyone?)

Are you saying you get the alternate form's Ex and Su abilities? I'm not seeing where it says that, and alternate form says you keep your own Ex qualities, Su, SLA, and spellcasting abilities but get only the Ex special attacks of the new form (it doesn't explicitly say you don't get the new supernaturals, but the implication seems clear that you do not).

That said, you would keep some of the nice benefits that Phasm gets. 100-ft telepathy, tremorsense, and +4 to Fort and Reflex saves. I could see those being nice when added to a heavy-duty bruiser form you couldn't normally access with shapechange due to hit dice limits or because the destination creature is unique.

It's nifty, and I'll include it regardless for the expanded form access. I don't have a good list of things I'd use it for (barring me missing something with the Ex and Su abilities) save making yourself look like a god, but it's definitely nifty.

[Endarire]

Grell (Lords of Madness 107): Sightless (Ex) makes you immune to gaze attacks, ILLUSIONS, and other effects sight-reliant. That makes Shadowcraft Mages go, "WEHHEWTUKJHNETIUHERWWHE?" (That's a nonsense quote by the way.)

This may also apply to the Grell Philosopher (or a Grell Patriarch - LoM 109) which is a higher HD version with Wizard levels.

Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun 187), especially of the Elder (16HD) and Revered Elder (19HD) categories, seems interesting for its continuous true seeing, spell resistance 26 and 29 respectively, 100' telepathy, and 30' flight (perfect maneuverability?). They also cast spells as SLAs and have racial Sorcerer casting of a Sor level equal to their character level. Maybe that helps during shapechange.

[jmax]

Grell (Lords of Madness 107): Sightless (Ex) makes you immune to gaze attacks, ILLUSIONS, and other effects sight-reliant. That makes Shadowcraft Mages go, "WEHHEWTUKJHNETIUHERWWHE?" (That's a nonsense quote by the way.)

Hmm, somehow I don't have sightless creatures mentioned anywhere in my handbook. There are 3 in the SRD - Grimlocks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm), Destrachan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/destrachan.htm), and Yrthak (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yrthak.htm).

I imagine a sane DM would only apply the immunity to visual illusions. Auditory and heat illusions and such should all still work, although RAW does say otherwise.

There's an interesting thread on ENWorld about illusions and blindsight with some good discussion: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?65482-Blindsight-vs-Illusions

Grell specifically doesn't have a whole lot going for it other than the sightlessness. The flight is ok, the range on the blindsight is decent, and immunity to electricity and paralysis is nice, but the physical and other magical defenses are very weak - it's a form you might use when you know you're going to encounter a bunch of illusions, but only if you aren't facing any other kinds of threats. Overall I think you're better off going with a powerful outsider form that has True Seeing. Granted, that's usually only out to a limited range, but that range is usually higher than the range on blindsight, so you can just ignore everything outside the True Seeing radius if you're worried about illusions.

Immunity to gaze attacks is more potent defensively, but you can also just close your eyes. Any form with blindsight can get the same benefits - they just aren't immune by default.

I may make a note about sightless creatures with blindsight in the True Seeing section, but I think there are stronger options.

Of course, if your DM allows sightless creatures to be immune to non-visual illusions simply because they're sightless, that becomes much better.



This may also apply to the Grell Philosopher (or a Grell Patriarch - LoM 109) which is a higher HD version with Wizard levels.

The grell philosopher (including the patriarch) is mostly special for advanced hit dice and wizard levels, neither of which grants much benefit with shapechange.



Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun 187), especially of the Elder (16HD) and Revered Elder (19HD) categories, seems interesting for its continuous true seeing, spell resistance 26 and 29 respectively, 100' telepathy, and 30' flight (perfect maneuverability?). They also cast spells as SLAs and have racial Sorcerer casting of a Sor level equal to their character level. Maybe that helps during shapechange.

Phaerimm, on the other hand, is quite interesting. The flight is nothing special, and any plant creature gets the same immunities, but the vision is quite spectacular - not for true seeing, which is common, but for arcane sight, which is not present anywhere else in my handbook. That is definitely going in - thanks!

(I'll also probably add it under "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" next to several other creatures that implant eggs or spores which slowly devour victims from the inside. It's hardly unique there, but what the heck.)

You definitely don't get phaerimm spellcasting because it's not an Ex or Su ability. (Plus, as I mention in the handbook, racial spellcasting starts to fall apart once you start looking at acquiring spells known and resting for spell slots). You can make an argument that it should be able to use other spellcasting as spell-like abilities (with no verbal, somatic, or material components), but I think it's a pretty weak argument since it's keyed explicitly to the innate casting ability (and, indeed, specifically refers to sorcerer spells). It's worth asking your DM, but the answer is almost certain to be no. Further, since phaerimm has no other means of performing somatic components, only a druid with Natural Spell will be able to cast normally - and even that is questionable due to the lack of speech. You'd have to make an argument that you can substitute sounds with the varying wind speed.


Far more interesting even than phaerimm's vision is the monster on the previous page: the nishruu. Nishruu eats targeted spells to gain hit points (neat), drains charges from charged magic items (counter-productive), negates non-charged magic items until 1d4 rounds after leaving contact (awesome!), eats spell slots from casters with a chance of inflicting feeblemind (fantastic if you have good Charsma, otherwise merely interesting) and negates artifacts (HOLY **** YES PLEASE!).

The tradeoff is vulnerability to Rods of Absorption and Rings of Spell Turning, which result in a 5% chance of your immediate and utter destruction. Couple with foresight (which you can get for free from shapechanging into an Elemental Weird, although I prefer to just learn the spell because it feels a little less cheesy) so you can reflexively change to something safe if someone starts to pull one out. Note that you need not worry about someone pulling such an item from a handy haversack or bag of holding while engulfed because said extradimensional storage unit will itself be negated.




Consider the Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm). Using its Alternate Form ability, it lets you transform into ANY creature of Large or smaller size and gain this form's (Ex) and (Su) abilities. Some Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) (epic creatures) are legal targets, including the time-manipulating Phane!

Getting even more complicated, a Phasm can turn into a Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) and grab the (Ex) effects of any non-deific creatures! Doing this requires a move action each round to maintain, but still may be worth it. (Island of Blades from Tome of Battle's Eternal Blade10 or Cunning Surge from Dungeonscape's Factotum8, anyone?)

Can you please clarify your meaning with this? See my previous post for the specific questions.

[Endarire]

The Phasm and Protean I thought were more useful, but Alternate Form didn't grant all the stuff I initially expected.

What is this DoE source for strength of the true form?

Handbook Correction: Will-o-Wisp isn't immune to magic missile nor maze.

What do you think of the Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms 78) as a casting form?

Fiend Folio 190's Yellow Musk Creeper is a minion factory that makes Plants. Slowly. Monster Manual II 154-157 has the Myconids, but the Soverign is the most interesting with its Animation spores and Potion Making abilities.

Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) (Epic Creatures) have a shapechange-legal form including spiffy immunities, resists, 500' blindsight (!), and 1000' telepathy (!). See the Chichemic for details.

"Dragon" 343 page 42-44 has the Tome Dragons, notable for their free metamagic reducers (+1 to +3 for shapechange within 28 HD), 120'+ (good) flight, and other things. (Other creatures from this issue are spiffy, like the Gray Shiver for an (Ex) CHA bonus to all saves. Undead are auto-neutral or friendly to Nuckaleevee as (Ex). Hex Dragons have Retributive Curse (Su) for (good) flight and the ability to freely curse any creature that hurts it.)

Hoary Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (12 HD Epic Creature) has (Su) versions of astral projection and etherealness with minor immunities to Hold and Charm natively and Compulsions due to its continuous magic circle effect.

Overall, I've found Eggynack's Druid Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) to be a tremendous resource for creatures. That's how I learned about things I've shared! There are probably more interesting creatures in here!

[jmax]

Sorry, thought I'd replied to this already.


What is this DoE source for strength of the true form?
Dragons of Eberron. Page 15 has a table (not mentioned in the Table of Contents) on ways that dragons can be disguised, in which the authors have printed an obscure, extremely cheesable spell.


Handbook Correction: Will-o-Wisp isn't immune to magic missile nor maze.
Corrected in the Go-to Forms section as a footnote. If I think of a decent notation for it that doesn't screw up the formatting, I'll add it to the magical defense tables. The golems have some caveats as well.


What do you think of the Nagahydra (Serpent Kingdoms 78) as a casting form?
The fast healing is nice, but unless I'm missing something, it doesn't provide any other advantages. Ah, buried in the Spells block. It's debatable whether you get the one-spell-per-head given that it's in the Spells block, but that's basically following the same format as the original hydra burying the attack-with-all-heads in the descriptive text. I've added it in the relevant places.

You're going to need that fast healing because the AC is poor and there's no damage reduction.


Fiend Folio 190's Yellow Musk Creeper is a minion factory that makes Plants. Slowly.
I thought about listing this under Minions!, but I decided that you need to stay in Yellow Musk Creeper form in order for the "zombies" to follow you. The zombies aren't actually mindless, but they aren't sentient either, so there really isn't any good argument to be made that you can persuade them of your authenticity as their creator. Imagine trying to convince a strange dog that you've been its master for years - I just don't see it working.

If you really think it's worth mentioning, I could maybe add it with those caveats. I suppose, if you're willing to invest months in harvesting (with a buddy to move you around and feed you suitable victims), you could start checking in with them once daily to maintain your army and only deploy them when you need to (which requires you to have multiple shapechange castings per day). It just seems like an awful lot of contortion for fairly minor benefit. Admittedly, if you're willing and able to spend up for an arbitrary number of portable holes or can cast teleportation circle, this does become an entertaining gag - if not actually a useful one.

One other thing worth noting is that the zombies don't actually obey the creeper. They act to protect and nurture it, but you can't command them to do specific things without another ability along the lines of Rebuke Plants from Initiate of Nature.



Monster Manual II 154-157 has the Myconids, but the Soverign is the most interesting with its Animation spores and Potion Making abilities.

Ooooh, free potions! You have my attention :-) It looks like you still have to pay the usual costs for creating them. Brew Potion as a bonus feat is nifty though. Added.

I think, like Yellow Musk Creeper, maintaining control over the servants may be problematic.



Abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) (Epic Creatures) have a shapechange-legal form including spiffy immunities, resists, 500' blindsight (!), and 1000' telepathy (!). See the Chichemic for details.

The ones you can actually reach with shapechange (which from the SRD I think is just Chichimec) are already in there and have been for some time. Alas, my DM says they're too unique.


"Dragon" 343 page 42-44 has the Tome Dragons, notable for their free metamagic reducers (+1 to +3 for shapechange within 28 HD), 120'+ (good) flight, and other things. (Other creatures from this issue are spiffy, like the Gray Shiver for an (Ex) CHA bonus to all saves. Undead are auto-neutral or friendly to Nuckaleevee as (Ex). Hex Dragons have Retributive Curse (Su) for (good) flight and the ability to freely curse any creature that hurts it.)

Hmm. I haven't been including stuff from random Dragon/Dungeon Magazine issues. That might be worth a mention somewhere though. I do rather like the some of the other creatures in here - quite a bit of good style going on, and most of it isn't all that cheesey.


Hoary Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (12 HD Epic Creature) has (Su) versions of astral projection and etherealness with minor immunities to Hold and Charm natively and Compulsions due to its continuous magic circle effect.

Nightmare has the same planar travel abilities, and it's easier to access because it's straight Core. The mind-affecting immunities are pretty common and not really worth their own listing. Plenty of forms with those immunities with far better defenses (think Dread Wraith). Misty Breath is neat, but the nightmare's smoke is strictly better. The continuous air walk is nifty, but the flight makes it irrelevant (nightmares have the same flight). The only things that the hoary steed really has over the nightmare are some different style (which should not be discounted!), swapped fire and cold immunity/vulnerability, slightly better touch AC (but still too low to be useful), spell resistance that is too low to rely on, and damage reduction which is hard to bypass but doesn't offer much protection. The hoof damage is better, but you're not doing nightmare or hoary steed for melee damage.



Overall, I've found Eggynack's Druid Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) to be a tremendous resource for creatures. That's how I learned about things I've shared! There are probably more interesting creatures in here!

I do need to look at it more for the special wild shape creatures. Last time I checked there wasn't a whole lot in the way of specifics for shapechange.



Thanks for the suggestions!

[thethird]

If you are looking into controlling things why not go for a quanlos (MMIV)?

[jmax]

If you are looking into controlling things why not go for a quanlos (MMIV)?

Mostly because I'd never heard of it, although it suffers from similar problems to the Yellow Musk Creeper - albeit not as badly.


Thralls are freed immediately upon the death of the controlling quanlos.

When you leave the form, the quanlos that controlled them ceases to exist. You could make an argument that said quanlos resumes existing when you take the form again, but the DM can make an argument that the link has already been broken and therefore you have to re-establish control from the beginning. Being limited to 3/day hurts, too. (One relatively bright spot - your save DC will be higher due to your significantly higher hit dice, and you'll be able to buff Con further to push it a little higher. It's not going to be stellar, but it can be decent.)

A much better choice overall for arbitrary minions is the Fiend Folio's Blood Fiend Demon, which is already in my handbook. 30-foot range, CL 18 dominate monster at will with no strings attached (30-ft initial range, but no limitation afterward - you should still retain control after changing). Save DC is Charisma-based, so it's fantastic on Sorcerers, Sublime Chords, and Fey Druids. For everyone else, it's as good or bad as their Charisma investment. (This is not unique to Blood Fiend in any way - if you want to use non-physical abilities with shapechange, do not dump Cha.)

[Endarire]

I didn't notice any Modron (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a) forms in this guide. What are your thoughts on the Secundus for Telepathy and possibly also Cleric20 & Sor20 casting? Tertian for its Psionics immunity and slightly shorter range Telepathy and possibly also Cleric20 & Sor20 casting?

[jmax]

I didn't notice any Modron (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a) forms in this guide.

I haven't been through Manual of the Planes cover-to-cover yet. I'd never heard of these before, which is one reason they're not in the handbook. The game in which I have access to shapechange has its own cosmology and excludes many plane-specific stock monsters, so MotP hasn't been high on my priority list.


What are your thoughts on the Secundus for Telepathy
The telepathy is excellent and very much worth mentioning.


Tertian for its Psionics immunity and slightly shorter range Telepathy
Psionics immunity is nice, albeit far less useful than magic immunity. It's unlikely you'd need it at the same time as the last few miles of telepathy.


and possibly also Cleric20 & Sor20 casting?

and possibly also Cleric20 & Sor20 casting?
You do not get spellcasting unless it is explicitly marked as an Ex or Su ability. These are not. I list a few forms that get some spellcasting as Ex, but I lay out my reasoning for why you shouldn't (or possibly can't) use them.

You do however get the Nonaton's Psionics, because they're listed as supernatural abilities rather than psi-like abilities. Personally, I think it's a misprinting - the save DCs are set as though they should be psi-likes. At-will plane shift you can get elsewhere. At-will invisibility, though... now that's handy.


Edit: Added to telepathy section.

[Endarire]

I didn't notice any Tome Dragons (Arcane Dragons) in here from "Dragon 343" page 42. (The Hex Dragons from page 39-41 of that issue are also amusing.) Tome Dragons have a (Su) which reduces the cost of 1 metamagicked spell per round of by 1-4 slot levels (though the 4 is normally out of bounds for PCs). Arcane Dragons also have (good) maneuverability for flight regardless of size category and DEX, which is rare.

I'm unsure if this applies to shapechange, but "Tome Dragons automatically know all divination and conjuration spells on the sorcerer spell list. They can also cast spells from the Knowledge Cleric Domain as sorcerer spells." (Refer to page 44's sample Juvenile Tome Dragon.)

Other creatures in "Dragon 343" may be interesting enough to warrant guide inclusion.

[Endarire]

Beastiary of Krynn 15: Check out the Oblivion (Su) ability of the Frost Dragon!

Any creature that dies (from HP or a CHA score becoming 0) due to this dragon's breath weapon is erased from existence along with all memory that it ever existed! This is nuts!

[Reptare]

Hi, this is a fantastic resource, you all seem to truly be experts on Shapechange. I'm a DM with a group that has just encountered this spell and we spent an unusual amount of time debating whether Shapechange is compatible with Animal Growth.

In particular, the last line of Animal Growth is "Multiple magical effects which increase size do not stack." which is a common refrain for size altering spells. You all seem to take it for granted that Animal Growth works on a druid who has shapechanged into an animal, which at the outset makes sense because shapechange does alter type -- this is the usual problem when PCs want to use Animal Growth on themselves.

However, is there a clear reason why Shapechange does not count as a magical effect which increases size (when used to change form into an animal of larger size than the caster's original form)?

I apologize if I am derailing the thread and/or if this has been answered clearly elsewhere. In particular, there are tons of discussions about wild shape but wild shape explicitly does not grant the caster the new type and therefore clearly does not interact productively with Animal Growth.

Thanks!

[eggynack]

Hi, this is a fantastic resource, you all seem to truly be experts on Shapechange. I'm a DM with a group that has just encountered this spell and we spent an unusual amount of time debating whether Shapechange is compatible with Animal Growth.

In particular, the last line of Animal Growth is "Multiple magical effects which increase size do not stack." which is a common refrain for size altering spells. You all seem to take it for granted that Animal Growth works on a druid who has shapechanged into an animal, which at the outset makes sense because shapechange does alter type -- this is the usual problem when PCs want to use Animal Growth on themselves.

However, is there a clear reason why Shapechange does not count as a magical effect which increases size (when used to change form into an animal of larger size than the caster's original form)?

I apologize if I am derailing the thread and/or if this has been answered clearly elsewhere. In particular, there are tons of discussions about wild shape but wild shape explicitly does not grant the caster the new type and therefore clearly does not interact productively with Animal Growth.

Thanks!

The question of whether transformation magic qualifies as size altering magic is a pretty old one, and I think it generally resolves in favor of a yes with some ambiguity. That's how I tend to read it anyway, so tossing animal growth onto a large creature wouldn't get you to huge. That said, there's still some utility here. You could, for example, use animal growth to increase the size of a fleshraker to large. Moreover, animal growth has some utility beyond just size changing, so that would happen regardless of base size.

As for the issue of type, you are correct that animal growth cannot be directly applied to wild shape. However, what you can do is cast something like aspect of the wolf, a spell that does change your type to animal, then cast animal growth, and finally use wild shape to become something different.

[jmax]

I didn't notice any Tome Dragons (Arcane Dragons) in here from "Dragon 343" page 42. (The Hex Dragons from page 39-41 of that issue are also amusing.) Tome Dragons have a (Su) which reduces the cost of 1 metamagicked spell per round of by 1-4 slot levels (though the 4 is normally out of bounds for PCs). Arcane Dragons also have (good) maneuverability for flight regardless of size category and DEX, which is rare.

I'm unsure if this applies to shapechange, but "Tome Dragons automatically know all divination and conjuration spells on the sorcerer spell list. They can also cast spells from the Knowledge Cleric Domain as sorcerer spells." (Refer to page 44's sample Juvenile Tome Dragon.)

Other creatures in "Dragon 343" may be interesting enough to warrant guide inclusion.


Beastiary of Krynn 15: Check out the Oblivion (Su) ability of the Frost Dragon!

Any creature that dies (from HP or a CHA score becoming 0) due to this dragon's breath weapon is erased from existence along with all memory that it ever existed! This is nuts!

Sorry for the delay - haven't forgotten about you. I know there are a bunch of very potent dragon forms available with shapechange, but those have been the lowest priority for inclusion because I can't use them in any game I play in. Dragon Magazine content in particular gets ranked even lower than that because most DMs don't allow it at all.

If you want to go through Draconomicon and Dragon Magazine and pull out all the dragons worth using, I'll try to get to them sooner rather than later. I consider a form worth using if it has at least one of the following qualities:


A useful Supernatural or Extraordinary ability that provides utility not available from less obscure source books. If overlapping, potentially worth considering if it keys on a different ability score than already-included material - provided that, if shapechange provides that ability score, said score is at least decent.
Unusually good defenses, movement modes, ability scores, or natural attacks beyond what is available from less obscure books
A combination of the above two factors that makes a given creature more worthwhile even if it's redundant on all individual aspects (e.g. if you found something that is incorporeal and immune to magic like the Prismatic Golem but also can also dish out 200+ points of damage per round)
An ability so game-breaking or campaign-smashing that it needs to be called out as something nobody should ever use


The threshold for inclusion has gotten higher as the book as gotten bigger.




Hi, this is a fantastic resource, you all seem to truly be experts on Shapechange.

Glad it's helpful! Feedback like that keeps me motivated to maintain it long-term even though I don't have a character with access to shapechange and probably won't for at least a year or two.


I'm a DM with a group that has just encountered this spell and we spent an unusual amount of time debating whether Shapechange is compatible with Animal Growth.

In particular, the last line of Animal Growth is "Multiple magical effects which increase size do not stack." which is a common refrain for size altering spells. You all seem to take it for granted that Animal Growth works on a druid who has shapechanged into an animal, which at the outset makes sense because shapechange does alter type -- this is the usual problem when PCs want to use Animal Growth on themselves.

However, is there a clear reason why Shapechange does not count as a magical effect which increases size (when used to change form into an animal of larger size than the caster's original form)?

I apologize if I am derailing the thread and/or if this has been answered clearly elsewhere. In particular, there are tons of discussions about wild shape but wild shape explicitly does not grant the caster the new type and therefore clearly does not interact productively with Animal Growth.

Thanks!


The question of whether transformation magic qualifies as size altering magic is a pretty old one, and I think it generally resolves in favor of a yes with some ambiguity. That's how I tend to read it anyway, so tossing animal growth onto a large creature wouldn't get you to huge. That said, there's still some utility here. You could, for example, use animal growth to increase the size of a fleshraker to large. Moreover, animal growth has some utility beyond just size changing, so that would happen regardless of base size.

I agree that there's a little ambiguity and disagree with the conclusion. Shapechange is changing your whole shape rather than specifically your size. Any size change from shapechange is incidental to the greater change in shape. So you definitely couldn't stack animal growth on top of enlarge person or righteous might, but I think it absolutely should work in conjunction with shapechange (or polymorph, baleful polymorph, or polymorph any object). Further, because the effects are independent, if you cast animal growth while you're in a medium animal shape (with shapechange specifically) and then change to a large animal shape, animal growth should remain in effect. The first form would now be Large, and the second form would now be Huge. It's the same logic as bull's strength persisting across forms.

That said, I think either interpretation is defensible. Since you're the DM, it's your choice. I will point out that, if your players are using shapechange and animal growth together, that's time spent in shapechange where it can't be used to break your game in half.


As for the issue of type, you are correct that animal growth cannot be directly applied to wild shape. However, what you can do is cast something like aspect of the wolf, a spell that does change your type to animal, then cast animal growth, and finally use wild shape to become something different.

I agree that this works mechanically, but I've never liked it. It just feels weirdly abusive of the type system. That said, still totally valid.

[Segev]

Regarding "size-changing magic," I would qualify it as anything that actually says its purpose is to change your size. If it says it changes your size as its primary (or even a secondary-but-really-needs-specifically-calling-out-or-it's-not-obvious) effect, it probably qualifies as "size-changing magic." If, on the other hand, the size change is truly incidental to a broader effect, to the point that it is only mentioned incidentally and that it probably would be assumed if not mentioned (barring pedantic arguments amongst Playgrounders), it doesn't qualify.

So shape-changing magics, even those which help specify their limitations on changed shape based on changes in size (e.g. "You can assume any form from Tiny to Gargantuan"), are not size-changing magics so much as magics where your size changes incidentally.

Therefore, if you cast enlarge person on a halfling to make him Medium-sized, then that halfing casts alter self into a human, he's now a human under the effect of enlarge person, so will be Large. But, if there was a generic enlarge monster, you couldn't stack that with enlarge person to go up two size categories.

[jmax]

Regarding "size-changing magic," I would qualify it as anything that actually says its purpose is to change your size. If it says it changes your size as its primary (or even a secondary-but-really-needs-specifically-calling-out-or-it's-not-obvious) effect, it probably qualifies as "size-changing magic." If, on the other hand, the size change is truly incidental to a broader effect, to the point that it is only mentioned incidentally and that it probably would be assumed if not mentioned (barring pedantic arguments amongst Playgrounders), it doesn't qualify.

So shape-changing magics, even those which help specify their limitations on changed shape based on changes in size (e.g. "You can assume any form from Tiny to Gargantuan"), are not size-changing magics so much as magics where your size changes incidentally.

Therefore, if you cast enlarge person on a halfling to make him Medium-sized, then that halfing casts alter self into a human, he's now a human under the effect of enlarge person, so will be Large. But, if there was a generic enlarge monster, you couldn't stack that with enlarge person to go up two size categories.

Agreed. I would further assert that the language in alter self (from which polymorph and shapechange are derived) makes clear that the size change is incidental:


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities...

[eggynack]

I agree that there's a little ambiguity and disagree with the conclusion. Shapechange is changing your whole shape rather than specifically your size. Any size change from shapechange is incidental to the greater change in shape.
The size changing may be incidental, but it still happens. A definition of size changing magic that isn't "magic that changes your size" seems kinda wonky to me. More to the point, I was being a bit imprecise with my language. Animal growth says, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." There isn't really a separate categorization called size changing spells or size changing magic or whatever. The question, then, is whether this is a magical effect that increases size. It is that, so it should count as that.


Further, because the effects are independent, if you cast animal growth while you're in a medium animal shape (with shapechange specifically) and then change to a large animal shape, animal growth should remain in effect. The first form would now be Large, and the second form would now be Huge. It's the same logic as bull's strength persisting across forms.
Animal growth absolutely sticks around across forms. It just probably doesn't increase your size in certain forms. Animal growth doesn't have a size limitation on targeting, after all. It just doesn't stack.

[jmax]

The size changing may be incidental, but it still happens. A definition of size changing magic that isn't "magic that changes your size" seems kinda wonky to me. More to the point, I was being a bit imprecise with my language. Animal growth says, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." There isn't really a separate categorization called size changing spells or size changing magic or whatever. The question, then, is whether this is a magical effect that increases size. It is that, so it should count as that.

We might just have to agree to disagree on this one. Regardless, we've gone outside the scope of shapechange at this point - we should probably open a new thread to continue the discussion.

[LibraryOgre]

The Library Ogre: Mod prod by request.

[Endarire]

Shaedling from Monster Manual V 148, an always CE Medium Fey, can, as an (Ex) ability, make any item from shadowstuff weighing 15 pounds or less. The item disappears (seemingly stops existing) if it leaves the Shaedling's hand for more than 1 round.

Scrolls, potions, artifacts, spellbooks (with whatever spells you want inside), weapons (with the appropriate properties like Bane and Holy), and MANY other things apply. It's like a bound-on-acquire wish for items only! Want a Boccob's Blessed Book with 1000 of the most useful spells to transfer to your real spellbook? Done. Want a staff (including an epic staff) of any spell? Done. Want a rod (like a metamagic rod) or an epic rod (like a Rod of Excellent Magic)? Yours!

Concerned about having too few hands? Use girallon's blessing!

This is more than nuts. It's trail mix!

[jmax]

Shaedling from Monster Manual V 148, an always CE Medium Fey, can, as an (Ex) ability, make any item from shadowstuff weighing 15 pounds or less. The item disappears (seemingly stops existing) if it leaves the Shaedling's hand for more than 1 round.

Scrolls, potions, artifacts, spellbooks (with whatever spells you want inside), weapons (with the appropriate properties like Bane and Holy), and MANY other things apply. It's like a bound-on-acquire wish for items only! Want a Boccob's Blessed Book with 1000 of the most useful spells to transfer to your real spellbook? Done. Want a staff (including an epic staff) of any spell? Done. Want a rod (like a metamagic rod) or an epic rod (like a Rod of Excellent Magic)? Yours!

Concerned about having too few hands? Use girallon's blessing!

This is more than nuts. It's trail mix!

You can definitely make mundane items from it, and you could maybe make an argument for masterwork (it's a very weak argument, since that still requires high craftsmanship), but it definitely doesn't do magic items. The "Typical Physical Characteristics" section goes into more detail about the shadow gossamer material.


Spinnerets sprout from their stomachs, allowing them to weave shadow gossamer—a light, tensile substance stronger than a spider’s webbing.

So you can make whatever shape you want, but it definitely doesn't enchant anything for you. It's just a shapeable substance with useful material properties. At best it's a short-duration upgrade to Shapesand.

Does the Table of Contents help with some of what you asked for in your PM?

[Endarire]

Thanks for clarifying Shaedling.

I liked the Table of Contents. May we get a page listed for each entry? (Note you can use control+Enter to insert a page break.)

Record high and low ability scores: I mentioned this because sometimes you just want something with a super high (or low) stat, like Will o Wisp for 1 DEX or Titan for 43 STR. Persisted strength of the true form and certain Illumians could benefit from this.

Force Dragon (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Force_Dragon) and Prismatic Dragon (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Prismatic_Dragon) have niche use, being immune to force and prismatic effects respectively. As GM, I used a Prismatic Dragon against a Cleric who was outraged and surprised when prismatic sphere did nothing. These Dragons get their CHA bonuses to deflection AC.

[jmax]

Thanks for clarifying Shaedling.

I liked the Table of Contents. May we get a page listed for each entry? (Note you can use control+Enter to insert a page break.)



Done.




Record high and low ability scores: I mentioned this because sometimes you just want something with a super high (or low) stat, like Will o Wisp for 1 DEX or Titan for 43 STR. Persisted strength of the true form and certain Illumians could benefit from this.

Where exactly are you looking for this to be recorded? There's already a section for High Ability Scores (https://docs.google.com/document/d/127el4KqlL2ALu1chZ9WLPGFOu1InVTJ2pmxAmYAARbE/edit#heading=h.a2lz1l62xnl). It scales the font size on each score so you can easily find high combinations.

I don't see any point in specifically adding entries for low ability scores. There would need to be a pretty compelling argument to go through and harvest information to list things that suck. If you're turning into a Will O' Wisp, you're not doing it for melee damage and carrying capacity.



Force Dragon (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Force_Dragon) and Prismatic Dragon (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Prismatic_Dragon) have niche use, being immune to force and prismatic effects respectively. As GM, I used a Prismatic Dragon against a Cleric who was outraged and surprised when prismatic sphere did nothing. These Dragons get their CHA bonuses to deflection AC.

Added the magical defenses. The CHA-to-AC was already in there.

[Endarire]

Monster Manual III has the Arcane Ooze for Spell Siphon (Su).

[jmax]

Monster Manual III has the Arcane Ooze for Spell Siphon (Su).

Hmm. As a debuff, I don't think that's strong enough to merit inclusion (which is why it's not in the handbook already, as I've been through all of the Monster Manuals to harvest abilities). It's nifty, but there are so many nasty things I can do even in bulk to people who fail a mid-DC Fort save that it's not super compelling (Trumpet Archon's 100-ft paralysis blast comes to mind as significantly better if you can get your Charisma to 26 or higher). If they lost all their spells, that would be an awesome trick, but they only lose one (even if it is of their highest level). The form has no useful defenses beyond infinite spell resistance, so you're going to get clubbed to death as soon as they realize what's going on and find you unless nobody in the room prepared for dealing with spell resistance. You can probably pull off one good round before you need to GTFO or die. If your DM rules that your victims don't automatically notice they've lost a spell, you might get more leeway.

However, as a means of getting temporary hit points, it's quite interesting. Very situational, because you need to find a large gathering of arcane casters, and you definitely are taking a risk if you get caught unless you find a ton of friendly casters willing to volunteer their spell slots to buff you. But if you can nom several dozen high-level spells from a room full of casters, you're looking at hundreds of temporary hit points that last an hour - the ability implies strongly that the temporary hit points from multiple absorptions stack.

Probably the way I would approach this with hostile casters - and I need to figure out where to write this technique up in general for the handbook, because there's not a good place for it right now except maybe Cheese - would be to cast Polymorph (or maybe Alter Self depending on interpretation) on yourself after taking Arcane Ooze so that you look human again (notably, neither Polymorph nor Alter Self is subject to Spell Resistance, so you can apply them after taking Arcane Ooze). Polymorph and Alter Self both let you keep your supernatural abilities, so there's a bunch of Shapechange goodness you can use with them. (Any sane DM is going to rule that your next Shapechange form overrides Alter Self/Polymorph, so you get one shot per casting.) That would buy you maybe a few rounds to slurp up their spells, but as soon as someone pulls up True Seeing, you're hosed. You could combine it with Trumpet Archon's bulk paralysis to give you a few rounds of safe slurping, but unless everyone fails the save, you're going to have problems.

Even the temporary hit points use is still really hard to pull off at a meaningful scale, so I'm not sold yet on putting this in. It's nifty enough that I might just do it - hundreds of THP at once is pretty neat even if it is super situational and requires a bunch of setup.

[Endarire]

Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) has Shadow Blend for total concealment outside full daylight or a daylight effect. Also, energy drain immunity and a level draining breath weapon!

Tarterian Dragons (Draconomicon) have continuous (Su) freedom of movement, just in case you want to slip into that form to slip out of something.

Unbodied (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm) may be worthwhile due to its unique ability combo.

MM3's Cave Troll's Dazing Blow seems worth mentioning. See also Monsters of Faerun's Cloaker Lord and Fiend Folio's Rilmani, Sarkrith (especially Spelleater), and Shedu. FF's Steel Predator is useful for sundering, but gets a style points mention from its Alien appearance. FF's Living Holocaust was interesting to me due to control winds.
,
Draconomicon, Monster Manual V, the Fiendish Codexes, Fiend Folio (reexamine the creatures therein), Elder Evils, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Monsters of Faerun, and the Eberron/Faerun books in general seem like handy places to check for forms. Furthermore, the Tome of Battle has creatures with maneuvers shapechange could obtain and the Tome of Magic probably has something worthwhile. Magic of Incarnum may also be useful.

Why do you so highly value Prismatic Golem form? What about its moral code (Ex) SQ?

Also, since you've done the research, what about high INT casting forms for polymorph any object? Maybe that would be a separate handbook.

[jmax]

In general I only add things that provide earlier/easier access or better features than what I already have. The point isn't to list every possible form - it's to list every form you'd specifically want to use, within reasonable constraints. Unless it's super awesome fluff-wise, that means it has to be better mechanically, lower level, or from an easier book. Otherwise it's both extra clutter and an unnecessary performance drop for users with low-end hardware.


My goal here is to cover everything one might want to do with shapechange rather than anything one could do. In that spirit, I have omitted creatures whose abilities are inferior to others with similar abilities unless they have other important qualities, such as an overall stronger form, better mobility or defenses, or a more accessible sourcebook.


Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) has Shadow Blend for total concealment outside full daylight or a daylight effect. Also, energy drain immunity and a level draining breath weapon!

Energy drain immunity is easy to come by - all undead and constructs are immune.

Shadow Mastiff is core and provides an identical ability, albeit on a weaker chassis. Shadesteel Golom is from a more accessible book, available quite early, and has a very nice chassis as well.

The level-draining breath weapon is interesting, but the save DC is bad. Probably worth listing anyway given the decent area and targeting Reflex - it fits the "many creatures" criterion at a minimum.


In order to be listed here, a debuff must either affect a very large number of creatures, be a free action or non-action to use, have no save (or occasionally a Reflex save), or possess some other unique and very powerful attribute. There are so many potent disables available with shapechange that debuffs just aren’t that spectacular.

What I do like with the Shadow Dragon, and this is definitely worth listing, is the hour-long, 300-ft-radius cloud of perfect darkness it can produce three times per day and then hide in at will while seeing normally - though I might switch to a different shadowy form depending on what I want to do.



Tarterian Dragons (Draconomicon) have continuous (Su) freedom of movement, just in case you want to slip into that form to slip out of something.

Tarterian dragon doesn't offer much that I don't already have from more accessible forms. Spider Eater is core and provides continuous Freedom of Movement at any caster level. At high caster levels, Storm Giant (core) and Hound of the Hunt (much more commonly allowed source) are better in almost every way. There's a brief period at CL 17-18 in which Tarterian dragon is better for simultaneous defense; aside from that, the only thing it brings to the table is faster flight. I'll probably list it anyway for those reasons, but it's pretty narrow.


Draconomicon, Monster Manual V, the Fiendish Codexes, Elder Evils, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, Monsters of Faerun, and the Eberron/Faerun books in general seem like handy places to check for forms.

I've done MM5, Fiendish Codexes, Monsters of Faerun, and I think Manual of the Planes. The rest are somewhat lower-priority sources for various reasons, including both obscurity and setting limitations. I may take a pass through the rest at some point, but I've been mostly working on other projects lately, so I probably won't be spending multiple consecutive days crawling through books page by page in the near future.


Why do you so highly value Prismatic Golem form? What about its moral code (Ex) SQ?

Moral Code is not an Ex or Su ability, so it does not come with Shapechange. Even if it did, the literal wording says it stops obeying its creator if given conflicting instructions. There's no creator and no instructions, so it's irrelevant.

[Endarire]

Intro
Thankee.

I'm not trying to overwhelm you with clutter, but offer suggestions on nifty forms. Maybe I got stuck on the notion of "seems fun/unique" instead of "world rending power."

I didn't mention the Create Shadows ability because that was Great Wyrm (37HD) only.

Table of Contents: The page number for Minions is wrong.

Nifty Creatures to Me
Still, the Tome of Battle Valkyrie gets martial maneuvers, all of which are (Ex) or (Su). Naityan Rakshasa from ToB shapeshifts into various forms for use of certain ToB maneuvers.

Lost Empires of Faerun has the Helmed Horror which gives it immunity to 3 spells of its creator's choice. (If the caster can choose these spells, especially on each turn, that's potent!)

If you're in a game where incarnum matters, there's the Incarnum Dragon for its Meldshaping, Consume Soulmelds, breath weapon, and chakra binds.

For odd minionmancy, I suggest Fiend Folio's Yellow Musk Creeper: Kill something through INT damage and it becomes a non-Undead Yellow Musk Zombie (that is, a Plant creature).

Want to escape detection while permanently killing off foes? Bastion of Broken Souls 42 has the Soulmarauder Energons, most notable for their Phase Change ability and Soul Consumption ability. Soul Consumption requires an hour, but works best if you can warp to a fast time plane.

Secrets of Sarlona 147 has the Essence Reaver for spell & power absorption, which kinda looks like Baldur's Gate II's Slayer form. It also has Karalaq Quori which are... weird.

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits: Oculus Demon (page 201) has its free action Eyebolts and is healed by negative energy. At 70' (perfect), it flies faster than a Beholder and has 100' telepathy.

Fortress of the Yuan-Ti: The Risen King (page 53) may be too unique of a creature to count, but it's interesting due to Invoke the Serpent's Wrath and Undead Ward.

Underdark: Elder Brain (page 85) has Bud Brain Golem to make a Brain Golem 1/day, 240' blindsight, and 350' mindsight ("Telepathic Awareness"). Kuo-Toa Leviathan (page 92) gets Sea Mother's Blessing (WIS bonus to AC like a Monk's AC bonus that seemingly stacks with a Monk's AC bonus). A Portal Drake (page 98) has Portal Sight, allowing it to look through any portal and see the other side of any portal it's been through.

Shining South: Rattelyr Dragon (page 63) gets Hood Extension for spell turning for a number of spell levels equal to its HD. A Laraken (page 66) has Absorb Magic. The Starsnake (70) absorbs all directed spells and SLAs and converts these into electrical zaps shot at the caster.

Heroes of Horror: Dusk Giants (page 148) get Cannibalize, which grants them extra hit dice by eating foes. Phantasmal Slayer (152) kills anyone who looks at it via phantasmal killer with the possibility of dazing creatures once and dealing damage every round.

Sources with No Notable Creatures for Shapechange Purposes:
-Anauroch, Enpire of Shade: Sharn would be spiffy if not for archetypical form which prevents shapeshifting into them.

-Complete Arcane

-Complete Psionic

-City of Stormreach

-City of the Spider Queen

-Cityscape

-Dark Sun Campaign Setting

-Deep Horizons

-"Dragon" Compenium (volume 1)

-Dragonlance Campaign Setting

-Dragonmarked

-Dragons of Eberron

-Dungeonscape

-Eberron Campaign Setting

-Elder Evils

-Exemplars of Evil

-Expedition to Castle Ravenloft

-Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

-Expedition to Undermountain

-Explorer's Handbook

-Five Nations

-Ghostwalk

-Pool of Radiance

-Races of the Dragon

-Red Hand of Doom

-Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil

-Secrets of Xen'drik

-Scourge of the Howling Horde

-Shackled City Campaign

-Shadowdale, the Scouring of the Land

-Shadows of the Last War

-Sharn, City of Towers

-The Sinister Spire

-The Speaker in Dreams

-The Fright at Tristor

-The Twilight Tomb

-Tome and Blood

-Tome of Magic

-Voyage of the Golden Dragon

-Waterdeep, City of Splendors

-Whispers of the Vampire's Blade-

[Noxangelo]

the reason dinosaurs are on spell lists is because they still exist in most settings. in forgotten realms they live on chult i believe and eberron never had an ice age so the big ones are only found in zoos or out of the way places, things like the compsognathus would be on the same level as foxes.

[jmax]

Intro
Thankee.

I'm not trying to overwhelm you with clutter, but offer suggestions on nifty forms. Maybe I got stuck on the notion of "seems fun/unique" instead of "world rending power."


Apologies if that came across as hostile. I started out listing all of the cool things and quickly discovered that it made the guide way too big to be useful - in addition to the really good stuff getting lost in the shuffle, there were the aforementioned performance problems. (The latter will go away if I ever turn this into a real web page/app, which I've only been talking about for 3 years :-P)

I definitely appreciate your enthusiasm! Shapechange is a really fun ability, and it's a shame it doesn't see more use. Although if I had published this ten years ago, I do wonder how many DMs would have just table-flipped and banned Shapechange entirely. This spell is definitely the Knowledge Is Power sort.

If you see anything in the handbook that seems insufficiently useful to be worth including and is a candidate for removal, please let me know. I would love to make it smaller without losing valuable content. Right now it's definitely too close to the Kitchen Sink side of everything.



I didn't mention the Create Shadows ability because that was Great Wyrm (37HD) only.


Bah. I thought that sounded too good to be true. I missed that detail. This is another reason I haven't done all of the dragons: The compound listings are annoying. Oh well - at least I hadn't done the write-up yet.




Table of Contents: The page number for Minions is wrong.


The table of contents is auto-generated, and Google Docs doesn't always do it perfectly. I regenerated it in Print Layout, which seems to have fixed the Minions! section - I can't promise everything is perfect, but they're also all links, and those definitely work.



Nifty Creatures to Me


In-lining (bold for ease of picking out the ones I want later):


Valkyrie - I don't think this works for getting maneuvers. Individual maneuvers are Su and Ex abilities, but those are things the individual valkyries learn, and the ability to learn them is not marked as Su or Ex. I would treat this the same as spellcasting. I'll probably list it anyway just as a unique effect that probably doesn't work (just like my spellcasting section).
Naityan Rakshasa - This one, on the other hand, explicitly does work because it derives from an Su ability. I'll have to look into whether those maneuvers and stances are worth listing - my guess is they aren't given the weak chassis, but it's worth a look.
Helmed Horror - I would interpret that as the typical ones, but a generous DM might let you choose once per casting of Shapechange. I definitely wouldn't allow changing them every round.
Incarnum Dragon - I know nothing of incarnum, so I don't even have the context to evaluate this one.
Yellow Musk Creeper - I looked at this one and ultimately decided it wasn't practical/useful. I don't remember precisely why. I think it was because the yellow musk zombies can't go more than 100 feet from their parent creeper for the first 2 days, which means you have to stay in the form for them to persist usefully (and the form is otherwise pretty bad aside from the regeneration). You also don't get direct control over them - they just fight to protect you, and by the time you have Shapechange, they won't be protecting you from anything that could actually harm you.
Soulmarauder Energon - I find the Roar ability more compelling than the Soul Consumption; there are other ways to prevent resurrection already in my book, and most of them are from much more accessible sources. As written, I don't think you can use Phase Change for devouring souls, and it's not clear whether Shapechange's duration would continue to tick down while out of phase, which probably means it would. I do like the chassis for the Soulscaper, but given the obscurity of the sourcebook (only exists in a specific adventure module) I'm not sure it's worth listing just for that. That's a very nice touch AC to layer on top of being incorporeal though. If it had golem immunities, it would likely displace Prismatic Golem as the top defensive form. The roar is interesting, and I do like Soulsight. I'll think on this one, but for Soulsight and Roar rather than Soul Consumption.
Kalaraq Quori - Weird indeed, but it's already in my handbook. It has quite a few lovely things. A shame it doesn't exist in my DM's setting. This is probably my favorite form that I can't use.
Essence Reaver - Ooooh, shiny. I'm surprised I missed this. It's an awfully long ability description, but they had me at the bit where you can cast the absorbed spell yourself. It's a shame it doesn't do divine spells, but this is a nice way to bum a high-level arcane spell off a buddy. This is definitely worth including.
Oculus Demon: Hmm. It's the triple-free action that saves the Eyebolts from complete obscurity. The initial effect (sickened) is crap, but since you can fire three at once, you only need two of three to stick in order to render the target panicked, which is probably about equal to a single save for the panicked effect - though less random. (If I can make all three stick to knock the target unconscious, I have plenty of other ways I could have done that.) I'm on the fence as to whether I should include this - I have tons of ways to incapacitate a single target, some even through the same effect (panic), but this is the only panicked effect I have that targets Fort or is based on a decent Con score - most are Will saves based no Charisma. I still have a ton of disables that target Fort for one or more creatures, but they're subject to different immunities. I'll have to think about it...
Oculus Demon again: ...except there is also that Paralysis Gaze. Now we're talking. I've got a few paralysis gaze attacks already, but they all target Fort, and this targets Will. It's also a better chassis that the other options up to 20 HD - at 21st Nightwalker is roughly equal. Between the earlier access and targeting a different save, this is worth including.
Risen King: I don't have access to this book. What does it do?
Elder Brain: I have it from Lords of Madness, but I missed the Brain Golem option. I'll look into it. I have the other abilities.
Kuo-toa Leviathan: Nifty. At this point I expect druids and Animal clerics to have a Monk's Belt with a wilding clasp though. Even without, I don't think this is going to result in good enough AC to be worth taking the form just for that.
Portal Drake - That is the mother of all niche abilities. Interesting. Worth including for the uniqueness, although whether it's at all useful depends on interpretation - if you have to be in Portal Drake form for a portal to count as traversed for this purpose, it's useless.
Rattelyr Dragon - The spell turning is easily outclassed by Mockery Monarch (which has infinite Spell Turning), but this is available three levels earlier... and Mockery Monarch is so bizarre I sort of expect every DM to just ban it. Worth including.
Laraken - Not as good as Essence Reaver's, and the sourcebook is equally obscure, but it's available a level earlier and won't be banned on the basis of acknowledging the existence of psionics. Worth including, if only just barely.
Starsnake - Dream Shield only works while sleeping, so that's out. If you're sleeping in combat, you're dead.
Dusk Giant - Now this is interesting. There are a few different interpretations that determine how useful this is. First of all, if your DM lets you keep the gains in other forms (I wouldn't), then like the Barghest under the same conditions this is incredibly slick - if you don't mind having to keep feeding it, but since you can use non-sentient creatures, at least it doesn't require continuous murder. The downside would be that those Hit Dice might count toward your Effective Character Level. However, most likely you'd just be powering up this specific form, and unlike with the Barghest, this one is actually worthwhile - even if you have to start from Least Dusk Giant and work your way up, that Greater Dusk Giant is a doozy just for the ability scores. 48 Str, 32 Con? Sweet. Nightcrawler is just as strong and immune to most things targeting Fort, but this is available 7 levels earlier - and if you push it all the way, you can get 54 Str and 35 Con. Ask your DM if the atrophy sets in while you aren't using the form - if not, you can be always-on at maximum once you attain it. And of course the DM might just let you change straight to max if your caster level is high enough. This one is really quirky, but it's sufficiently cool to be worth including.
Phantasmal slayer - Interesting, but we have Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm)'s death touch, which doesn't require the first Will save and has a better attack bonus. Further, Devourer's isn't a Fear effect, so fewer things are immune to it - Devourer's should probably be listed as a [death] effect, but it isn't, so it's not (unless the DM says otherwise, which she well might). It's nice that this is incorporeal, but I think that's offset by the second save. What I do like is the automatic 1-round daze on first sight with a successful save. Buying yourself and your allies a guaranteed round of unfettered action as far as the eye can see is definitely worth including. Forget the touch itself - once you have them dazed for a round, you can afford to use a more vulnerable form with a stellar offensive attack like the Banshee's wail.


There are definitely a few things in there worth picking up. Thanks!



Sources with No Notable Creatures for Shapechange Purposes:
-Anauroch, Enpire of Shade: Sharn would be spiffy if not for archetypical form which prevents shapeshifting into them.


Hah! You'd think WotC would have thought to put that on a bunch of other things, but nope. Oh well - it looks like it would have been nifty.




-Complete Arcane

-Complete Psionic

-City of Stormreach

-City of the Spider Queen

-Cityscape

-Dark Sun Campaign Setting

-Deep Horizons

-"Dragon" Compenium (volume 1)

-Dragonlance Campaign Setting

-Dragonmarked

-Dragons of Eberron

-Dungeonscape

-Eberron Campaign Setting

-Elder Evils

-Exemplars of Evil

-Expedition to Castle Ravenloft

-Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

-Expedition to Undermountain

-Explorer's Handbook

-Five Nations

-Ghostwalk

-Pool of Radiance

-Races of the Dragon

-Red Hand of Doom

-Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil

-Secrets of Xen'drik

-Scourge of the Howling Horde

-Shackled City Campaign

-Shadowdale, the Scouring of the Land

-Shadows of the Last War

-Sharn, City of Towers

-The Sinister Spire

-The Speaker in Dreams

-The Fright at Tristor

-The Twilight Tomb

-Tome and Blood

-Tome of Magic

-Voyage of the Golden Dragon

-Waterdeep, City of Splendors

-Whispers of the Vampire's Blade-

Thanks - having a bunch of books not to look through is helpful. Although I've actually pulled a few nifty things out of Waterdeep, City of Splendors - take a look at the handbook if you haven't seen them (just search for "Waterdeep").

[Endarire]

The Risen King (21 HD Medium Undead) is an oddity. To start, he also takes extra HP damage as if he were an Outsider and Undead, but can't be banished as if he were a true Outsider. (Assume all ability DCs scale with your CHA mod since this thing is Undead, and likely also a unique creature.)

-Fast Healing 7

-DR 15/Overcome by Good Silver

-60' blindsense

-Aura of Awe (Su, Mind-Affecting): Sanctuary (Will DC 26 negates). If overcome by a creature, that creature is immune for 24 hours.

-Hypnotic Gaze (Su, Mind-Affecting): Daze for 1 round, -2 on saves against his Hypnotic Gaze (and some SLAs of his shapechange doesn't grant) for d4 rounds. Fort DC 26 negates.

-Invoke the Serpent's Wrath (Su): Swift action, usable every d4 rounds. A living subject in 30' takes 10d6 damage (Fort 26 halves) as a viper swarm bursts from this creature and remains for 4 rounds afterward.

-Poison Blood (Ex): Any creature not immune to poison who damages the Risen King with a piercing or a slashing melee weapon (seemingly in melee, and not via a Dancing weapon or a spiritual weapon) takes 2d4 damage (Reflex 26 negates).

-Unholy Ward (Ex): Add CHA mod to HP per HD. Add CHA mod to accuracy, Fort saves, and deflection AC.

-Writhing Reach (Ex): 10' reach as a Medium creature instead of 5'.

He also has skills and SLAs and feats not gained via shapechange.

[jmax]

The Risen King (21 HD Medium Undead) is an oddity. To start, he also takes extra HP damage as if he were an Outsider and Undead, but can't be banished as if he were a true Outsider. (Assume all ability DCs scale with your CHA mod since this thing is Undead, and likely also a unique creature.)

-Fast Healing 7

-DR 15/Overcome by Good Silver

-60' blindsense

-Aura of Awe (Su, Mind-Affecting): Sanctuary (Will DC 26 negates). If overcome by a creature, that creature is immune for 24 hours.

-Hypnotic Gaze (Su, Mind-Affecting): Daze for 1 round, -2 on saves against his Hypnotic Gaze (and some SLAs of his shapechange doesn't grant) for d4 rounds. Fort DC 26 negates.

-Invoke the Serpent's Wrath (Su): Swift action, usable every d4 rounds. A living subject in 30' takes 10d6 damage (Fort 26 halves) as a viper swarm bursts from this creature and remains for 4 rounds afterward.

-Poison Blood (Ex): Any creature not immune to poison who damages the Risen King with a piercing or a slashing melee weapon (seemingly in melee, and not via a Dancing weapon or a spiritual weapon) takes 2d4 damage (Reflex 26 negates).

-Unholy Ward (Ex): Add CHA mod to HP per HD. Add CHA mod to accuracy, Fort saves, and deflection AC.

-Writhing Reach (Ex): 10' reach as a Medium creature instead of 5'.

He also has skills and SLAs and feats not gained via shapechange.

Sounds nifty. A shame that it's explicitly unique.

[Endarire]

Reserves of Strength debatably removes the caster level caps for spells instead of increasing their caps by the amount of caster levels boosted.

Unsure how useful this is considering how many useful forms are 20 HD or less.

[Endarire]

@jmax
What abilities do you believe are most useful to check for in new forms? I know this handbook doesn't yet account for every form, but it's a big enough data project that I was inclined to ask.

Thankee!

[jmax]

@jmax
What abilities do you believe are most useful to check for in new forms? I know this handbook doesn't yet account for every form, but it's a big enough data project that I was inclined to ask.

Thankee!

In some ways it's more art than science. Some bits are easy and obvious, and others are more nuanced. All of them require a final pass to see if the form is worth using relative to something already in the handbook.

The easy stuff:

High stats - look for anything with Str above 40, Dex above 30, and Con above 30. That's not a hard minimum, but it's a good baseline.
High AC - in general, base AC above 40 or touch AC above 30 is noteworthy
Resistances and defenses - SR above 30, any regeneration, DR 10 or 15 requiring a rare combination of damage types (e.g. epic and silver, silver and good), energy immunities or several overlapping resistances
Status immunities
Flight above 90 feet (good maneuverability)
Lots of natural attacks with good stats, or several natural attacks with amazing stats


Special abilities are more nuanced. At this point you probably aren't going to find a really new category of ability, so going based on the groupings in the outline is probably a good start. For any given form, look at its Ex and Su abilities to see what category they fit in, and then check to see whether they're better in at least one way (which can be amazing defenses and such as well as the specific ability) than a form already listed there. Being from a more common sourcebook or fewer hit dice counts as one way, and it's very possible to boot something else off the list if your new monster is better in every way (which can be targeting a different save - that's pretty common). Anything with a saving throw DC based on a physical ability score is only worthwhile if that score is at least ok - no matter how amazing it is, if it's Con-based on a form with 10 Con, it's going to suck.

Then the final pass is looking really hard to see if it's really worth including. For the easy stat-block stuff, you're looking for whether the whole package together is really better (or more accessible) than the whole package for something already listed - in general that means a lot of good, overlapping stuff. For the special abilities, it's assessing whether this is really something worth using - and, if so, would the situation in which you'd be using it be survivable for that form.

And then the new step for dragons specifically is to make sure the ability you've gotten really excited about is actually at an attainable age category :-P

Finally, after all that, see whether the new entry obsoletes anything in its categories - if you can remove something less accessible for the same effect, great.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to try to remove chaff, including stuff that I never should have included in the first place. I appreciate removal suggestions at least as much as new entries.

In actual game-play, I find myself always gravitating to the same few forms except in fairly niche situations - hence the "Go-To Forms" section near the beginning. Never once have I said to myself "Gee, I need a bunch of fire damage right now - what are my options?" I have definitely gone for massive-scale debuffs and incapacitates, but I've probably never used a single-target one that wasn't a save-or-lose, a save-and-you-suck-anyway, or a no-save-just-suck.

[Endarire]

I reread the Zodar stat block. Note that Zodars can walk at 60', they can't speak (though tongues should counteract that), and they can double their STR scores from 25 to 50 for 3 rounds per day, each as a free action.

[CIDE]

Beastiary of Krynn 15: Check out the Oblivion (Su) ability of the Frost Dragon!

Any creature that dies (from HP or a CHA score becoming 0) due to this dragon's breath weapon is erased from existence along with all memory that it ever existed! This is nuts!

That sounds like a less crappy version of that one 9th level Truenamer spell.


The Risen King (21 HD Medium Undead) is an oddity. To start, he also takes extra HP damage as if he were an Outsider and Undead, but can't be banished as if he were a true Outsider. (Assume all ability DCs scale with your CHA mod since this thing is Undead, and likely also a unique creature.)

-Fast Healing 7

-DR 15/Overcome by Good Silver

-60' blindsense

-Aura of Awe (Su, Mind-Affecting): Sanctuary (Will DC 26 negates). If overcome by a creature, that creature is immune for 24 hours.

-Hypnotic Gaze (Su, Mind-Affecting): Daze for 1 round, -2 on saves against his Hypnotic Gaze (and some SLAs of his shapechange doesn't grant) for d4 rounds. Fort DC 26 negates.

-Invoke the Serpent's Wrath (Su): Swift action, usable every d4 rounds. A living subject in 30' takes 10d6 damage (Fort 26 halves) as a viper swarm bursts from this creature and remains for 4 rounds afterward.

-Poison Blood (Ex): Any creature not immune to poison who damages the Risen King with a piercing or a slashing melee weapon (seemingly in melee, and not via a Dancing weapon or a spiritual weapon) takes 2d4 damage (Reflex 26 negates).

-Unholy Ward (Ex): Add CHA mod to HP per HD. Add CHA mod to accuracy, Fort saves, and deflection AC.

-Writhing Reach (Ex): 10' reach as a Medium creature instead of 5'.

He also has skills and SLAs and feats not gained via shapechange.

Where is the risen king from?



Reserves of Strength debatably removes the caster level caps for spells instead of increasing their caps by the amount of caster levels boosted.

Unsure how useful this is considering how many useful forms are 20 HD or less.

Gibbering Orb is the common solution to that question.


I reread the Zodar stat block. Note that Zodars can walk at 60', they can't speak (though tongues should counteract that), and they can double their STR scores from 25 to 50 for 3 rounds per day, each as a free action.

I think the biggest perk of the Zodar (barring the Wish use) is their damage immunities.

[Endarire]

@CIDE
The Risen King is from Fortress of the Yuan-Ti.

[nijineko]

Polymorph and Shapechanging
3.5 Forms for Alter Self (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811)
The EVEN MORE Complete Polymorph Thread 3.5 (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519)
Polymorph, Wild Shape and Shapechange, oh my! (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1415)
Mini Handbook of Shapeshifting Comparisions - by Surreal (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1451)
Form Changing Comparisons [Wildshape, Polymorph, etc] (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9635)

Some useful guides and handbooks that already exist.

[jmax]

Hey, so apparently I missed a post notification, causing me not to get any subsequent notifications. Sorry about that.



I reread the Zodar stat block. Note that Zodars can walk at 60', they can't speak (though tongues should counteract that), and they can double their STR scores from 25 to 50 for 3 rounds per day, each as a free action.

The Strength doubling is interesting, but there are so many things that get pretty close that I don't know it's worth the space to call out the three rounds per day. It might be useful in conjunction with the damage immunities.


Beastiary of Krynn 15: Check out the Oblivion (Su) ability of the Frost Dragon!

Any creature that dies (from HP or a CHA score becoming 0) due to this dragon's breath weapon is erased from existence along with all memory that it ever existed! This is nuts!

That sounds like a less crappy version of that one 9th level Truenamer spell.

Unfortunately that's not a WotC book, so I don't think it qualifies as original source material.





Gibbering Orb is the common solution to that question.

I believe I have that listed under "Cheese" :-P



Polymorph and Shapechanging
3.5 Forms for Alter Self (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811)
The EVEN MORE Complete Polymorph Thread 3.5 (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519)
Polymorph, Wild Shape and Shapechange, oh my! (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1415)
Mini Handbook of Shapeshifting Comparisions - by Surreal (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1451)
Form Changing Comparisons [Wildshape, Polymorph, etc] (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9635)

Some useful guides and handbooks that already exist.

I used several of those as inspirations. However, none of them indexes by ability. The power of Shapechange isn't about what you can be but rather what you can do. A list of go-to forms (which I have at the beginning of my handbook) is handy, but that only scratches the surface.

Sometimes you just really need to disperse an angry, magically manipulated mob of thousands of otherwise innocent creatures without killing them (because they are, after all, innocent) - a simple list of good forms isn't going to tell you how to do that. But look up "Incapacitate, Fear" and check for options with a several-hundred-foot radius and you're golden. And that's how turning into a Lupinal Guardinal for 30 seconds or less made my druid an enduring legend among fey throughout the continent by saving thousands of them from a dark, angry god who was going to devour them all to restore his power.

That level of specificity is the real power of Shapechange - and it only works if you know how to use it.

Hmm, I should break those and a few others out into "Incapacitate, Mass" - anything working on that scale is incredibly noteworthy.


Incidentally, I got a couple of Edit requests for the handbook with no explanation of what the requestors wanted - was that any of you? I haven't responded to them yet.

[Endarire]

I don't recall asking for Google Doc editing permission for this handbook.

[Windaar]

Greetings, fellow munchkins!

Upon gaining access to Shapechange for the first time, I discovered there wasn't a comprehensive guide to its use. So now there is!



Thank you!! This is exactly how I would want to use a guide like this!