Melding Orcs and half-orcs into one race, with the former racial traits as subraces.

[Arkhios]

With the arrival of VGtM we can see that Orcs and Half-orcs are not much different from each other. I had an idea that they could be melded into a single race - assuming you're not fond of the idea of half-orcs being half-breed which implies one or the other thing, and instead use their differences as sub-race traits.

Here's my re-iteration of the race, let's see what do you think of it. Feel free to use and reflavor them if you wish.

ORCS
Your orc character has the following racial traits.
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Size. Orcs are usually over 6 feet tall and weigh between 230 and 280 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Menacing. You are trained in the Intimidation skill.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.
Subraces. Uruk and Uruk-Hai.

Uruk Traits
Uruk are more bestial and unbridled than Uruk-Hai, and have the following racial traits.
Age. Uruk mature much faster than humans and Uruk-Hai, reaching adulthood around age 12. They age noticeably faster and rarely live longer than 50 years.
Ability Score Penalty. your Intelligence score is reduced by 2.
Aggressive. As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started.
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. In addition, Uruk wielding versatile weapons in one hand deal damage with them as if wielding them in two hands.*

Instead of Ability Score Penalty an Uruk would have the following racial trait.
Daylight Sensitivity. You have disadvantage on attack rolls and on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight when you, the target of your attack, or whatever you are trying to perceive is in direct sunlight.


Uruk-Hai Traits
Uruk-Hai are, despite their appearance, generally much more sophisticated than Uruk and tend to travel in small nomadic groups, preferring the open road to the laws and rules of civilization. They have the following racial traits.
Age. Uruk-Hai mature a little faster than humans and a little slower than Uruk, reaching adulthood around age 14. They age noticeably faster and rarely live longer than 75 years.
Relentless Endurance. When you are reduced to 0 hit points but not killed outright, you can drop to 1 hit point instead. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
Savage Attacks. When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you can roll one of the weapon's damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit.

*This is my own addition. I don't think that Powerful Build as written is worth the -2 to Intelligence.

[Maxilian]

First, you didn't really change anything but strip the orcs from their own language

[Laereth]

That is very nicely done ! Would never would have tought of doing it myself as I wanted to use half-orcs. But right now I'm tempted to scrap them form my homebrew world and use those variants instead.

If we are into changing abilities, for the Feral Orc would dropping the -2 make sense and use the Powerful Build as it is written ? Just wondering, since starting 5e I've become averse to penalties to stats seems like a hold over...

Anyhow, I reiterate good work and must admit I'm a fan of your "Inquisitor" Rogue Archetype, I am porting it to my current campaign as I was wondering what class would give the right feel for an Inquisitor.

[Arkhios]

First, you didn't really change anything but strip the orcs from their own language

Ugh, I forgot that bit. In my setting there is no racial languages, so I removed them from all races. But yes, I didn't change much, which wasn't my point anyway. I just wanted to re-iterate the races. If you look closely, though, you can see that Powerful Build isn't exactly as RAW.


That is very nicely done ! Would never would have tought of doing it myself as I wanted to use half-orcs. But right now I'm tempted to scrap them form my homebrew world and use those variants instead.

If we are into changing abilities, for the Feral Orc would dropping the -2 make sense and use the Powerful Build as it is written ? Just wondering, since starting 5e I've become averse to penalties to stats seems like a hold over...

Anyhow, I reiterate good work and must admit I'm a fan of your "Inquisitor" Rogue Archetype, I am porting it to my current campaign as I was wondering what class would give the right feel for an Inquisitor.

First of all, thank you! Much appreciated :smallsmile:

I think that removing the -2 penalty to intelligence, and keeping Powerful Build as is might be balanced(?) but I'm a bit doubtful. Powerful Build is a ribbon trait, really.

Edit: Instead of -2 int, I would have probably given the true orc Daylight Sensitivity as they had in 3.5 (IIRC).

[Specter]

Well, half-orc is still better by a large margin, I guess. Why not remove that INT penalty?

[Regitnui]

Why not call them "sharakim" and "thin-bloods"? The Sharakim are true orcs, and the thin-bloods are the weaker/intelligent kind.

[Arkhios]

Well, half-orc is still better by a large margin, I guess. Why not remove that INT penalty?

Why not indeed? I am considering it, but compared to half-orc's racial traits, they get two remarkably stronger traits, while orcs still get only one strong trait + a ribbon trait, which in most cases will probably be waste of space, if a DM doesn't enforce keeping track of carrying capacity. What would be reasonable trait to balance it? I think that just adding the line I have might do the trick.


Why not call them "sharakim" and "thin-bloods"? The Sharakim are true orcs, and the thin-bloods are the weaker/intelligent kind.

Hmm, good call. I had forgotten sharakim, but I also must admit I don't recall seeing the thin-bloods before. Although, weren't the sharakim more intelligent than their more common cousins?

Anyway, the sub-race names are subject to change most likely anyway. Those are just placeholders really.

[Laereth]

I think that removing the -2 penalty to intelligence, and keeping Powerful Build as is might be balanced(?) but I'm a bit doubtful. Powerful Build is a ribbon trait, really. I would have probably given the true orc Daylight Sensitivity as they had in 3.5 (IIRC).

It might be a ribbon trait, but somehow I feel that Aggressive is very stong (for melee characters)...being (unless I'm mistaken) the only form of charge ability.
Anyhow, I think your suggestion of Daylight Sensitivity is also a good one. I feel that aspect of orcs, being mostly underground/night creatures, is missing.

[Maxilian]

It might be a ribbon trait, but somehow I feel that Aggressive is very stong (for melee characters)...being (unless I'm mistaken) the only form of charge ability.
Anyhow, I think your suggestion of Daylight Sensitivity is also a good one. I feel that aspect of orcs, being mostly underground/night creatures, is missing.

I don't think Daylight Sensitivity is needed, the Orcs may prefer fighting in storms and at night, but that does not mean that they have problems with being on the sunlight.

[Arkhios]

I don't think Daylight Sensitivity is needed, the Orcs may prefer fighting in storms and at night, but that does not mean that they have problems with being on the sunlight.

Although, in previous editions (at least in 3.5) orc characters were Light sensitive, meaning that they had penalties to fight in "bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell." I find it strange that this isn't the case any more. Especially because that's not unprecedent either (see Drows in PHB, they are sensitive to light as well).

[Mikal]

Stealing this and expanding on it.

For my own campaign I've made a world where several elven subraces were different tribes who banded together into a caste-based society based on their racial subclass (surprisingly Drow make the best diplomats and merchants with that charisma bonus!)

With Orcs/Half-Orcs as a single race for an idea, I can set them up as a Republic who opposes the Elven caste-based society, protecting the scattered orcish tribes from Elven slave raids...

[Arkhios]

Stealing this and expanding on it.

For my own campaign I've made a world where several elven subraces were different tribes who banded together into a caste-based society based on their racial subclass (surprisingly Drow make the best diplomats and merchants with that charisma bonus!)

With Orcs/Half-Orcs as a single race for an idea, I can set them up as a Republic who opposes the Elven caste-based society, protecting the scattered orcish tribes from Elven slave raids...

Sounds cool, to say the least. And, be my guest and steal, and expand. I couldn't claim rights to this change even if I wanted to, anyway! :smallbiggrin:

[Mikal]

Sounds cool, to say the least. And, be my guest and steal, and expand. I couldn't claim rights to this change even if I wanted to, anyway! :smallbiggrin:

If you're interested in the elven society, shoot me a PM. It's about... 85% complete. Needs a little more fluff and geography to really finish off.

[Arkhios]

I think I'll call the "half-orcs" as Sharakim (Followers of Sharak, iirc), and "true orcs" as Urukim (likewise Followers of Uruk).

[Typhon]

Although, in previous editions (at least in 3.5) orc characters were Light sensitive, meaning that they had penalties to fight in "bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell." I find it strange that this isn't the case any more. Especially because that's not unprecedent either (see Drows in PHB, they are sensitive to light as well).

Goes back farther than that. I know in 2nd ed they were operated on night time cycles and that was the reason they suffered the penalty. Course they also had Orogs, half-ogre/half-orc cross breeds.

They probably dropped it on the basis that for the most part 5e isn't about having limitations and with there being half-orcs, people want to play full orcs. So drop the sunlight sensitivity and voila, new playable that is unique.

[Arkhios]

Goes back farther than that. I know in 2nd ed they were operated on night time cycles and that was the reason they suffered the penalty. Course they also had Orogs, half-ogre/half-orc cross breeds.

They probably dropped it on the basis that for the most part 5e isn't about having limitations and with there being half-orcs, people want to play full orcs. So drop the sunlight sensitivity and voila, new playable that is unique.

Drop Daylight Sensitivity while they don't even have it now? And just by judging from their stats Orc PC is strictly weaker than half-orc PC. Something just doesn't add up here. Shouldn't the Orcs be more savage than their half-blood cousins and not the other way around?

[Typhon]

Drop Daylight Sensitivity while they don't even have it now? And just by judging from their stats Orc PC is strictly weaker than half-orc PC. Something just doesn't add up here. Shouldn't the Orcs be more savage than their half-blood cousins and not the other way around?

I feel horrible about getting into a genetics breeding discussion even with fantasy creatures.

Think of it like this pure breed dogs can be strong in certain ways, but they are not wolves. Wolves are typically better than pure bred dogs because they are the source or most canines. Mutts (either two differing breeds or wolf/dog) tend to be closer to wolves and display a much more capable thought processing ability as well as being physically healthier and stronger.

So while pure orcs might be less intelligent than orogs or half-orcs, they have their own strengths. Things that get lost in the breeding as it were, like say 120' darkvision or enhanced smell.

As a note, half-orcs in 2nd also were pretty much outcast from society due to their heritage. Humans, demihumans (other than the disreputable), and orcs saw them as untrustworthy due their bloodlines.

Now, as to why they dropped daylight sensitivity in 5e, your guess is as good as mine.

[Zene]

This is great.

As a note, I've been playing a full orc since Volo's came out, up to L11, in a bunch of sessions with at least a dozen different (AL) DMs. And I can vouch from personal experience that they are substantially worse than half-orcs mechanically in actual play. Powerful Build has not come up once (despite my character having a grappling build). Aggressive is ok, but seems to always compete with other bonus actions that I want to use in round one (in my case, entering Rage or activating my flametongue weapon), and is completely useless once you're in melee except in extremely rare circumstances. The half-orc's relentless endurance and savage attacks will be straight-up better, and more frequently used, for any melee character build I can think of. And while a 6 Int could be manageable from a mechanical standpoint, every other DM I talked to about it interprets a 6 Int -wrongly, IMO, but it is what it is-- as a near-unfunctioning level of intelligence. So I decided to point-buy a 10 Int (i.e. 8 Int after Orc penalty) for roleplaying purposes, which definitely hurt my starting stat distribution.

Full orc is still fun from a flavor perspective, but mechanically it is a very poor choice. Btw, in AL it has the additional penalty of being from Volo's, which locks out EE and SCAG material from the character.

[Arkhios]

I feel horrible about getting into a genetics breeding discussion even with fantasy creatures.

Think of it like this pure breed dogs can be strong in certain ways, but they are not wolves. Wolves are typically better than pure bred dogs because they are the source or most canines. Mutts (either two differing breeds or wolf/dog) tend to be closer to wolves and display a much more capable thought processing ability as well as being physically healthier and stronger.

So while pure orcs might be less intelligent than orogs or half-orcs, they have their own strengths. Things that get lost in the breeding as it were, like say 120' darkvision or enhanced smell.

As a note, half-orcs in 2nd also were pretty much outcast from society due to their heritage. Humans, demihumans (other than the disreputable), and orcs saw them as untrustworthy due their bloodlines.

Now, as to why they dropped daylight sensitivity in 5e, your guess is as good as mine.

While I'm aware of all that, I don't see the point you're trying to make. Especially since I'm considering giving the true orcs the Daylight Sensitivity as well as maybe enhanced darkvision instead of the -2 intelligence. If drow (an elf sub-race) can get by with it (daylight sensitivity) - and they are in the PHB no less - then why couldn't one of the orc sub-races have the same drawback as well?

[Typhon]

While I'm aware of all that, I don't see the point you're trying to make. Especially since I'm considering giving the true orcs the Daylight Sensitivity as well as maybe enhanced darkvision instead of the -2 intelligence. If drow (an elf sub-race) can get by with it (daylight sensitivity) - and they are in the PHB no less - then why couldn't one of the orc sub-races have the same drawback as well?

I say do it.

[Arkhios]

Alright, one idea, which might even be fitting setting-wise, is to call the former Orcs as Uruk, and Half-Orcs as Uruk-Hai.

The setting, if someone's interested, is set in the future of our world and would be somewhat appropriate that people of future present might've misinterpreted Lord of the Rings and its tales of Middle Earth as true history :smalltongue:

[mgshamster]

It might be a ribbon trait, but somehow I feel that Aggressive is very stong (for melee characters)...being (unless I'm mistaken) the only form of charge ability.


It's basically a bonus action to dash, with the stipulation that you have to end your movement closer to the enemy. So it's a limited form of dash.

No race gets it, but a 3rd level eagle barb gets it. So does a 2nd level monk for 1 ki, and a 2nd level rogue.

[Arkhios]

I was wondering ...if I chose to take it one step further and basically homebrew the orcs again... would this be ok?

Orcs (as the race)
Ability Score Increase +2 Strength
Other traits as above.

"True Orcs" (sub-race)
Ability Score Increase +1 constitution
Daylight Sensitivity / -2 intelligence
Aggressive
Savage Attacks
Powerful Build (as written)

"Half-Orcs" (sub-race)
Ability Score increase +1 to two ability scores other than strength
Relentless Endurance

[Sigreid]

Stealing this and expanding on it.

For my own campaign I've made a world where several elven subraces were different tribes who banded together into a caste-based society based on their racial subclass (surprisingly Drow make the best diplomats and merchants with that charisma bonus!)

With Orcs/Half-Orcs as a single race for an idea, I can set them up as a Republic who opposes the Elven caste-based society, protecting the scattered orcish tribes from Elven slave raids...

I always liked the Rune Quest idea were orcs were literally elves corrupted by dark magics. It also amused me that both were listed as being plants.