Readying actions pre combat?

[Foxydono]

A few party members tend to ready actions before combat is initiated. For example, before they open a door the hunter says: 'I ready my action for it there is a creature behind it. If there is I shoot it with my crossbow.'

Should I treat this as a possible surprise attack giving them an 'extra' attack round? It happens a lot and I am not sure how to deal with it. I could also let the ready action trigger before combat, but treat it as his normal action which triggered earlier.

Any advice on how to deal with such ready actions would be appreciated.

[DivisibleByZero]

I don't allow it. If you're exploring an enemy stronghold or a dungeon or something, then it is implicit that you are prepared for opening doors. That's what initiative is for. You don't just casually stroll through and are suddenly surprised when you open that door to see monsters behind it.

[Tanarii]

It's not possible. Ready is a combat action.

Also surprise doesn't give extra rounds of attacks. I highly recommend going and rereading how the surprise rules work.

The way to deal with it is to start combat with the party (or most of the party) already on the other side of the door. Assuming they're 'invading'. If they're being 'invaded', start it with the enemies part way through the door. Even if you don't start combat then, at the absolute earliest you start combat when the door opens. Initiative is the split second timing that occurs as combat erupts, so it determines who attacks first at the point you start combat. Although I *strongly* recommend from personal experience you start combat with the invading group at least partially in the room, not outside the room.

[Typhon]

A few party members tend to ready actions before combat is initiated. For example, before they open a door the hunter says: 'I ready my action for it there is a creature behind it. If there is I shoot it with my crossbow.'

Should I treat this as a possible surprise attack giving them an 'extra' attack round? It happens a lot and I am not sure how to deal with it. I could also let the ready action trigger before combat, but treat it as his normal action which triggered earlier.

Any advice on how to deal with such ready actions would be appreciated.

Speaking from real world experience, they can do this. My question is, how do they open the door?

If they batter the door with a warhammer, and it doesn't give, then enemies inside get the same warning and ready. Roll initiative.

If one of the party opens the door, then he is partially or fully in the kill corridor and the ranger can't take his shot without possibly or most likely hitting his buddy. Roll initiative and rangers attack has disadvantage.

If they are using a spell, mage hand or such, then unless anything is directly in front of the door it has cover. Roll initiative.

Plus I hope that someone checked for traps on that door and doorway.

[DivisibleByZero]

Speaking from real world experience, they can do this.

Speaking from a game mechanics standpoint, they can not do this.

[Tanarii]

Speaking from a game mechanics standpoint, they can not do this.
Yah. I mean, that's what initiative is. The fastest point at which you can declare a combat action on your turn. You *can* react faster, if you're not surprised, but you can't actually declare the Ready reaction in the first place.

[Typhon]

Speaking from a game mechanics standpoint, they can not do this.

So a ranger with a bow can not notch an arrow and pull back a blank aim? A fighter can not ready a shield for best defense and a sword for a thrust all before he charges into a room that may or may not have enemies? I never said they got a surprise/free round. I implied they could ready for combat, but once that door is open it's time to roll initiative. I also implied that a trap in a doorway is something that I would watch for in this situation, as doorways are wonderful for things like traps that will have an effect on a line of possible targets.

Anyone who has seen tense or combat situations will tell you that they are tiring. Running around in armor with weapons drawn, ready to strike targets everywhere is exhausting. So while you might carry all these items, they are not fully at the ready. Clearing a small building, such as house, it is entirely common to ready to enter the next room after getting ready to enter the building. Tactically, it is smart. Once a room is entered, all bets are off and things happen. Clearing a dungeon or a stronghold like this and fighting its inhabitants would be exhausting. Not too mention, with most structural layouts, you always have to watch out for things coming from behind.

Thus why rules for things like exhaustion exist. If they want to perform like it is reality, treat them to reality and introduce exhaustion in a big way. Not competitively, just realistically.

If they decide to switch tactics to reduce their footprint and try to involve more stealth and thoughtful gameplay. Then cool, it will get much easier, and rewards for less work are always nice.

[DivisibleByZero]

So a ranger with a bow can not notch an arrow and pull back a blank aim? A fighter can not ready a shield for best defense and a sword for a thrust all before he charges into a room that may or may not have enemies? I never said they got a surprise/free round. I implied they could ready for combat, but once that door is open it's time to roll initiative. I also implied that a trap in a doorway is something that I would watch for in this situation, as doorways are wonderful for things like traps that will have an effect on a line of possible targets.

Anyone who has seen tense or combat situations will tell you that they are tiring. Running around in armor with weapons drawn, ready to strike targets everywhere is exhausting. So while you might carry all these items, they are not fully at the ready. Clearing a small building, such as house, it is entirely common to ready to enter the next room after getting ready to enter the building. Tactically, it is smart. Once a room is entered, all bets are off and things happen. Clearing a dungeon or a stronghold like this and fighting its inhabitants would be exhausting. Not too mention, with most structural layouts, you always have to watch out for things coming from behind.

Thus why rules for things like exhaustion exist. If they want to perform like it is reality, treat them to reality and introduce exhaustion in a big way. Not competitively, just realistically.

If they decide to switch tactics to reduce their footprint and try to involve more stealth and thoughtful gameplay. Then cool, it will get much easier, and rewards for less work are always nice.

As pointed out above, Ready is a combat action. You aren't in combat until you are in initiative. So you can't Ready an action before initiative is rolled.
You can houserule whatever you like to make your game to align with what you believe to be more realistic. Knock yourself out. But within the confines of the rules, you can't do it until you are in initiative.

[Tanarii]

I feel like you guys aren't actually disagreeing, so much as saying the exact same thing in different ways right past each other. :smallbiggrin:

[Typhon]

As pointed out above, Ready is a combat action. You aren't in combat until you are in initiative. So you can't Ready an action before initiative is rolled.
You can houserule whatever you like to make your game to align with what you believe to be more realistic. Knock yourself out. But within the confines of the rules, you can't do it until you are in initiative.

I think the meaning of ready is what we are arguing here, not the action of readying.

You are specifying ready as combat involved actions, and I am not disagreeing with you. If you hold/ready an action in combat it is a pre-determined action that will happen in combat at a pre-determined moment.

I am specifying ready as in getting ready to take actions, which is how I read and understood what the OP stated. The ready I am specifying, is not combat related and does not have any effect on combat. For the situation that was described, I stated they could ready to take actions, but once the door opens they still will have to engage in combat as normal. Example; even if the ranger is fully drawn to fire, the enemy in the room may move faster (better initiative) and fire first.

[DivisibleByZero]

I think the meaning of ready is what we are arguing here, not the action of readying.

You are specifying ready as combat involved actions, and I am not disagreeing with you. If you hold/ready an action in combat it is a pre-determined action that will happen in combat at a pre-determined moment.

I am specifying ready as in getting ready to take actions, which is how I read and understood what the OP stated. The ready I am specifying, is not combat related and does not have any effect on combat. For the situation that was described, I stated they could ready to take actions, but once the door opens they still will have to engage in combat as normal. Example; even if the ranger is fully drawn to fire, the enemy in the room may move faster (better initiative) and fire first.

That is not the message that your answer conveyed.
He asked if it was basically a free surprise attack permitted before the enemy even rolled initiative.
Your response was to state "Speaking from real world experience, they can do this."

[Tanarii]

I am specifying ready as in getting ready to take actions, which is how I read and understood what the OP stated.In an D&D discussion, when someone asks if you can Ready an action pre-combat, it is always safe to assume they mean use the (combat) Ready Action.

In this case, the OP was fairly explicit. "the hunter says: 'I ready my action for it there is a creature behind it"

[sightlessrealit]

I'd allow it but they would have disadvantage as they don't know what's behind the door.

[Typhon]

That is not the message that your answer conveyed.
He asked if it was basically a free surprise attack permitted before the enemy even rolled initiative.
Your response was to state "Speaking from real world experience, they can do this."

My answer was also longer than one line. It also explicitly stated that


My question is, how do they open the door?

If they batter the door with a warhammer, and it doesn't give, then enemies inside get the same warning and ready. Roll initiative.

If one of the party opens the door, then he is partially or fully in the kill corridor and the ranger can't take his shot without possibly or most likely hitting his buddy. Roll initiative and rangers attack has disadvantage.

If they are using a spell, mage hand or such, then unless anything is directly in front of the door it has cover. Roll initiative.

Plus I hope that someone checked for traps on that door and doorway.

and at no point did I say they got a surprise/free round.

I know this is the interwebs, but we can not just ready our actions to argue and move off of single lines of text. The entirety of the triggering post agreed with you succinctly and stated in no uncertain terms why the party would still have to roll initiative. My "Speaking from real world experience.", is that you can be ready for combat and still get your teeth kicked in.

In my second post, I merely stated that no one runs around fully combat ready every second even in a dungeon. So taking a second to ready to fight before entering a room is normal. Entering a room with combatants is entering combat and everyone rolls initiative. I stated that if they wanted to do this every time they entered a room, then maybe introduce exhaustion to have them re-evaluate simply fighting everything. Because in an enemy stronghold, how often are you going to be able to sit and rest for any real length of time. You run out of resources, you run out of stamina, and it can honestly get frustrating.

[DivisibleByZero]

He basically asked if they should get a free round of attacks.
You basically said Yes, and now you're explaining why you didn't mean to say Yes.
Do you really not see why that makes your response confusing and worthy of further discussion?

[Breashios]

He basically asked if they should get a free round of attacks.
You basically said Yes, and now you're explaining why you didn't mean to say Yes.
Do you really not see why that makes your response confusing and worthy of further discussion?

So you read Typhon's "Roll Initiative." as after an attack (saying Yes). I did not read it that way. I read it as after you have opened the door Roll Initiative (saying No). The difference being the defenders are sitting/don't have shields on/weapons not drawn, etc. Even though there would be no surprise per se, the defenders could be at a disadvantage in that they would have to use some of their actions and movement to respond.

Of course, if the defenders were aware of the party about to open the door, they would be in an equally prepared situation, ready to fire/cast/swing at the first thing to appear as the door opened, so to answer the OP, just assume the enemy are equally prepared to take advantage of the door opening if they are aware of the party. ...and in either case start the combat by "Roll Initiative".

[Typhon]

He basically asked if they should get a free round of attacks.
You basically said Yes, and now you're explaining why you didn't mean to say Yes.
Do you really not see why that makes your response confusing and worthy of further discussion?

I would allow them to ready actions that would be combat applicable. However, combat applicable still means you need to be in combat and entering combat requires initiative. Until combat is actually joined, there is no combat. So I don't care what they are doing as it is not combat.

Training to fight is not combat, but you will learn to ready as if you were going into combat. Sparring is controlled and less dangerous combat, but still combat. Pulling a notched arrow and taking aim at a door is not combat, that is target shooting and an action that any archer would be well practiced at performing. The door opens and initiative rolls, every time. If there is no one on the other side then you waste a roll. If you don't aim to target a specific creature and fire as the door opens, you are at disadvantage to hit squat, lose an arrow and waste a roll. If you want to aim and hit an actual target, that is most definitely initiative based and you wait your turn. These aren't RAW or RAI, this is common sense and real world reflective.

[Mikal]

I allow it... but only with the knowledge given to the players that, since ready is a combat action, we are now moving into initiative phases, and I have them roll initiative.

I also roll several dice on my end whether or not there are actually enemies lurking on the other side of the door, so they can't anticipate whether or not something will actually be there.

It actually works somewhat well, since out of combat you can sometimes get the issue where one or two people are hogging all the time and spotlight either purposefully or unconsciously.

By making it break down into initiative actions, everyone can state what they're doing, and while it may slow the game down to do so, the added involvement of my wall flowers makes it worthwhile.

[Typhon]

I allow it... but only with the knowledge given to the players that, since ready is a combat action, we are now moving into initiative phases, and I have them roll initiative.

I also roll several dice on my end whether or not there are actually enemies lurking on the other side of the door, so they can't anticipate whether or not something will actually be there.

It actually works somewhat well, since out of combat you can sometimes get the issue where one or two people are hogging all the time and spotlight either purposefully or unconsciously.

By making it break down into initiative actions, everyone can state what they're doing, and while it may slow the game down to do so, the added involvement of my wall flowers makes it worthwhile.

That is a good way to handle it.

[Foxydono]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll stick with not allowing it since it is a combat action. I do hear some good alternatives, but since the group is fairly new to d&d I don't want to overcomplicate things.

[Mikal]

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll stick with not allowing it since it is a combat action. I do hear some good alternatives, but since the group is fairly new to d&d I don't want to overcomplicate things.

Yeah, if the group is new to D&D best to stick with RAW.

Is it new to D&D in general or just 5th edition? I know I had a hard time with a few of the differences between it and 3.5 (What? A grappled person can still attack? Insanity!), and still do occasionally.

Just remember D&D is a world where the average citizen can be killed by four housecats. D&D was never meant to be a real world simulator, and some things which may be "obvious in real life" actually should be ignored if they clash with the rules.

[lperkins2]

If you don't let PCs ready actions outside of combat, put them into initiative order before opening the door.

It makes sense to disallow readying actions outside of combat, since there's no clear way to do it. Who gets to ready actions in what order? Do the enemies all have their own actions readied? How long does the character stay ready? These are all questions that are solved by moving in initiative order. The downside is, for most parties, it takes longer. Not allowing this encourages its own set of absurdities, including encouraging intra-party combat.

'What, we can't just drop into initiative order to open the door? Fine, I'm going to punch our barbarian, guess we better roll initiative to see who gets to react to this PvP first. Oh look, we're in initiative order, guess everyone else can ready actions against hostiles that might have heard me attack, then on my next turn I'll open the door.'

Note that this does not grant an extra surprise round. Since characters can only be surprised on the first round of combat, no one on either side will be surprised. It's up to the DM to decide which of the NPCs skip their turns and which ready their own actions. If they hear the party, they probably all have their own attacks readied for when the door opens. If they are undead or constructs assigned to guarding the door, they probably always ready attacks against intruders. Otherwise, some of them may have passed their turns. Note that they can still take reactions since they are not mechanically surprised. If you do this, you'll probably find the party only rarely asking to drop into initiative before opening doors, since it can make the fight very one sided not in their favor, especially if the occupants know they are outside. The sequence goes something like this.

Party rogue gets highest initiative, readies against the door opening. Party mage goes next, readies to cast fireball through the door once opened. Ranger readies to shoot anyone coming out of the door, or visible through the door, barbarian readies with his spear against anyone coming out of the door. Next round, the rogue opens the door, revealing the nest of 4 wyrmling black dragons. This is a 'hard' fight, so a party willing to nova should handle it no problems, except all the beasties go before anyone can take intelligent actions. The wizard drops his fireball, doing 8d6 damage, with a 13% chance of killing any dragon that fails its save. Any dragon that makes its save cannot be killed by the fireball. The ranger shoots one of the dragons, possibly killing it. Doesn't matter though, because the dragons fire off their readied actions, 4 DC 11 breath weapons hit the poor sod who just opened the door. An average level 5 rogue, with 14 CON has around 36 HP, and the breath weapons do 5d8 each, or 20d8 for all of them. Assuming the rogue makes every single save, he still has a 3.5% chance of not going down. He could easily end up outright killed. If he fails the first 2 saves, he'll be sitting at 0 HP with 2 auto-fails. If he rolled badly on his HP while leveling, or only has a 12 in CON, the last breath weapon has around a 6% chance of killing him outright from over-damage. All because no one has time between each of the dragons going to down a healing potion, or take cover, or anything.

I've found it usually only takes once with something like this happening to make the party rethink this tactic. When they think there are hostiles on the other side of the door, they'll drop into initiative order, and anyone who rolls higher than the appointed door opener readies actions, but it doesn't turn into a full round of prep, nor an extra surprise round.

[Tanarii]

I've found it usually only takes once with something like this happening to make the party rethink this tactic. When they think there are hostiles on the other side of the door, they'll drop into initiative order, and anyone who rolls higher than the appointed door opener readies actions, but it doesn't turn into a full round of prep, nor an extra surprise round.
The party doesn't get to "drop into initiative order" unless the DM allows them to declare combat has begun, as opposed to declaring it herself.

You're effectively saying they get to declare Ready actions before combat has begun, you're just changing the rules to allow the players to declare combat has begun before it's actually begun.

[DivisibleByZero]

The party doesn't get to "drop into initiative order" unless the DM allows them to declare combat has begun, as opposed to declaring it herself.

You're effectively saying they get to declare Ready actions before combat has begun, you're just changing the rules to allow the players to declare combat has begun before it's actually begun.

Exactly.
What about if there actually are mobs on the other side of the door? Do they enter initiative as well, readying actions if they go before the door opener?

[Tanarii]

Exactly.
What about if there actually are mobs on the other side of the door? Do they enter initiative as well, readying actions if they go before the door opener?At which point he's right back where he started ... might as well just roll initiative. If the guys inside aren't prepared, then it's a surprise situation, so all this pre-combat lining up PCs turns before PCs open the door stuff isn't necessary then either.

Open door, roll initiative, if you act before someone else you want to act after, ready an action to act after them. If the other guys are surprised, use surprise rules. Done and done. Yes, it's possible someone 'surprised' inside the room may get a turn first and be able to use reactions before the player gets to do their thing. Cool. The enemy is just that quick to react to an ambush. Working as intended.

(This is all assuming DM doesn't want to just start combat with the front line guys having gone through the door anyway. IMX that works just fine unless the players are planning to open door and throw in a fireball / bunch of arrows before anything else happens.)

[hymer]

[...]you can take the Ready action on your turn[...]

I think it's meant to be clear that you can't take that particular action outside of combat when there are no turns.

[Typhon]

Exactly.
What about if there actually are mobs on the other side of the door? Do they enter initiative as well, readying actions if they go before the door opener?

I agree on this note heartily.

I would also state, what if the mobs on the other side of the door are non-combatants? Do you just go ahead and use your readied actions to go into attack actions on women and children, laying down fireballs on innocents. I am pretty sure that is how the Evils of Ravenloft pull you in.

Being ready for combat is not, as DBZ and I have gone over, being in initiated combat with fully readied combat actions.

[Mikal]

Exactly.
What about if there actually are mobs on the other side of the door? Do they enter initiative as well, readying actions if they go before the door opener?

Per my own post above, if the enemy hears them blundering about... yes.

Regardless, they enter initiative, and if they are doing anything, then they go on their action.

Since we're not attacking directly yet, then as a DM I would do their actions silently while the party does their preparation.

Combat is a tactical time space. If they want to spend time in that space, then they're allowed.

If anything, entering it before the actual combatants physically meet allows you as a DM to prepare the battle space beforehand, and allows you to be better prepared for what's occurring when the fight actually occurs.

Otherwise, technically speaking, any enemies on the other side of the door are essentially frozen in time until they interact with the PCs, or "spawn" when the PCs arrive, to use a video game example.

Hell, I've considered running an entire dungeon in initiative time, or any potential combat zone. It allows each party member to know when they can act, and helps slow down mr. or ms. "Oh I'm on the second floor searching the closet, oh wait there's gold on the first floor? I'm there instead!" as well as mr. or ms. "I describe 10 actions worth of activity while everyone else describes 1. Wait, why is everyone else looking bored?"

[N810]

How about only opening the door a crack to see what's on the other side ?

[Typhon]

Hell, I've considered running an entire dungeon in initiative time, or any potential combat zone. It allows each party member to know when they can act, and helps slow down mr. or ms. "Oh I'm on the second floor searching the closet, oh wait there's gold on the first floor? I'm there instead!" as well as mr. or ms. "I describe 10 actions worth of activity while everyone else describes 1. Wait, why is everyone else looking bored?"

That comes across as a whole lot of micromanagement. Something like this would, over time, really make me consider cycling my character out of a game for a bit.

I mean, great everyone gets to speak and say what they are doing. However, shouldn't that be something a DM would make sure got to happen without resorting to such a management intensive method?

[Mikal]

That comes across as a whole lot of micromanagement. Something like this would, over time, really make me consider cycling my character out of a game for a bit.

I mean, great everyone gets to speak and say what they are doing. However, shouldn't that be something a DM would make sure got to happen without resorting to such a management intensive method?

How is it management intensive? If you're not in combat it's literally "Ok. We're going down in the order you rolled. You can do these amount of actions. Everyone go."

There's not really any management there. The DM keeps the list of people in order, and people do their thing.

It cuts down on people talking over each other, and allows people who are normally quiet to have an opportunity to do more vs. their more gregarious companions if they so choose.

Plus, you can as a group can always say "We continue moving down the hallway until we notice something interesting or are stopped in some way".

In that situation, you continue moving as normal, the DM just making note if any enemies hear them or special effects, just as if you didn't roll initiative. And when something DOES happen, it makes it easier to adjudicate and say "ok, so, X happened, so player Y, what do you do?" vs. everyone shouting out their answer at once.

Also makes surprise easier to adjudicate since as the DM you know exactly when the enemy can interact during the parties actions, and either use stealth or whatever, rather than ad hoccing it.

It's not necessarily micromanagement, it's creating structure in chaos that could potentially stifle others, and doesn't really slow things down, for the most part.

[Hrugner]

The majority seems to be saying that the players can declare themselves not surprised by whatever is on the other side of the door, but gain no other advantage, is that correct?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've got players that attempt to do these things all the time. I rule that attempting to use combat actions puts you in combat. You and anything else in the vicinity immediately rolls initiative, and all normal combat rules apply. This will include uses of stealth, perception, cover, surprise, etc. Make sure to roll some dice even when there aren't any other creatures to keep everyone nervous.

It's actually led to some very nasty encounters for my players, and they rarely take these actions anymore. After I recognized how often they'd be trying to daisy chain ready actions, I started designing dungeons as though the creatures within them had a reasonable desire to not die. They don't hang around entryways, set up sentries and escape plans, don't stay put for very long, use at least a simple communication line with other rooms, and are always on the look out for intruders the very moment it becomes clear that something's wrong. Less intelligent gribblies prefer lurking in the shadows and are almost never obvious upon entering a room unless they're asleep or otherwise distracted. If you DO see someone clearly on the other side of the door, chances are good they don't actually belong there. Only one non-hostile NPC had to die before the party stopped using these tactics altogether.

My parties tend to rely on scouting, interrogations, and detective work before even setting foot into what is almost assuredly favorable terrain for their enemies. The last time I remember some new guy suggesting readying an action to shoot the first thing they saw on the other side of the door, the party yelled at him not to tempt me into putting a child on the other end of it.

(they were right)

[DivisibleByZero]

How is it management intensive? If you're not in combat it's literally "Ok. We're going down in the order you rolled. You can do these amount of actions. Everyone go."

If that's the case, then what is the point? All you're doing is slowing things down for absolutely no benefit (and some would argue plenty of loss). "You can do X amount of actions" just seems like micromanaging out-of-combat time. I don't understand the purpose.

[Mikal]

If that's the case, then what is the point? All you're doing is slowing things down for absolutely no benefit (and some would argue plenty of loss). "You can do X amount of actions" just seems like micromanaging out-of-combat time. I don't understand the purpose.

It's not micromanaging out-of-combat time. It's about structuring it.

It helps add structure in those situations where you have a few very extroverted people potentially hogging all the action while the introverts stay quiet. It also makes sure that the players realize that they can't just do 15 things at once, and actually plan out their actions.

It also again helps you as a DM. Rather than a general idea of where everything is, with this you can literally keep track of things in a wider area, and dynamically choose the NPC reactions based on the player actions- where they move, what they do, whether they're using stealth, etc.

It could provide a more cohesive experience, and stop a lot of ambiguity and ad hoc ruling of things.

This isn't during like, dinner in an inn with no enemies, or buying things. It's during situations where combat can occur at any time.

It's about the whole, not just the times there's an empty corridor they all walk down- including the times they want to prepare behind a door they think will have an enemy waiting for them, and again- for the times when they're searching for things and you have those PCs who always seem to be in the most advantageous spot, or doing 10 times the things others do in the same time.

Like I said- I've not tried it before. I think it would be interesting and potentially useful. But it could just end up slowing everything down. Doesn't mean the attempt shouldn't be made to see how it turns out.

[DivisibleByZero]

It's not micromanaging out-of-combat time. It's about structuring it.

.... said every micromanager ever. :smallwink:

[Mikal]

.... said every micromanager ever. :smallwink:

Seeing as how I'm not a micromanager and this isn't micromanaging, I'll have to take your word for it :smallsmile:

[dejarnjc]

Seems that since you can take the "attack" action outside of combat (generally initiating combat by doing so), use the "cast a spell" action, use the "search" action, and the "use an object" action it also seems to follow that you can use the "ready" action outside of combat as well.

I prefer rules that are logical and consistent so this seems pretty simple. If the PHB explicitly says otherwise then feel free to correct me.

[ProphetSword]

Seems that since you can take the "attack" action outside of combat (generally initiating combat by doing so), use the "cast a spell" action, use the "search" action, and the "use an object" action it also seems to follow that you can use the "ready" action outside of combat as well.

I prefer rules that are logical and consistent so this seems pretty simple. If the PHB explicitly says otherwise then feel free to correct me.

Prepare to be corrected, then.

While you can do some of these things outside of combat (like casting a spell or using an object), you are not using the "Cast a Spell Action" or any other kind of action. You're just doing things.

Page 192 of the Player's Handbook lists all the actions under the heading..."Actions in Combat." If that's not clear-cut, I don't know what is.

[DivisibleByZero]

Seems that since you can take the "attack" action outside of combat (generally initiating combat by doing so), use the "cast a spell" action, use the "search" action, and the "use an object" action it also seems to follow that you can use the "ready" action outside of combat as well.

I prefer rules that are logical and consistent so this seems pretty simple. If the PHB explicitly says otherwise then feel free to correct me.

Actions in Combat
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Attack
Cast a Spell
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Ready
Search
Use an Object

The difference between Ready/Disengage/Dodge and the rest is that those three are only pertinent in combat.

[lperkins2]

If that's the case, then what is the point? All you're doing is slowing things down for absolutely no benefit (and some would argue plenty of loss). "You can do X amount of actions" just seems like micromanaging out-of-combat time. I don't understand the purpose.

I think a lot of the trouble comes from the fact that most groups are terrible at managing time during combat. If your players don't pay attention during other characters' turns, and waste time asking what happened every time it gets back to them, spending time in initiative order is painful, so naturally, people try to avoid it, and it 'slows things down'. If initiative order is run well, it barely slows things down at all, and can even speed them up, since it avoids issues of everyone talking at once. Of course, once you go down the road of people spacing off during other players turns, fixing it becomes a large challenge.

[Mikal]

I think a lot of the trouble comes from the fact that most groups are terrible at managing time during combat. If your players don't pay attention during other characters' turns, and waste time asking what happened every time it gets back to them, spending time in initiative order is painful, so naturally, people try to avoid it, and it 'slows things down'. If initiative order is run well, it barely slows things down at all, and can even speed them up, since it avoids issues of everyone talking at once. Of course, once you go down the road of people spacing off during other players turns, fixing it becomes a large challenge.

That's a good caveat. So if I decide to implement this, I'll need to keep things moving along fast enough for people to not start spacing out.

Since we're not doing combat or making a lot of decisions most of the time, it shouldn't be an issue, but will need to somehow keep people's attention focused during those other times...

[dejarnjc]

Actions in Combat
When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
Attack
Cast a Spell
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Ready
Search
Use an Object

The difference between Ready/Disengage/Dodge and the rest is that those three are only pertinent in combat.

Says who? You?

Those are all technically potentially pertinent outside of combat as well though I admit that more often or not their usage would also cause combat to be initiated.

[Tanarii]

That comes across as a whole lot of micromanagement.Agreed. And the entire point of the individual initiative roll at the beginning of combat (with Dex bonus for quicker to react people), and the surprise rules, is to account for multiple factors.

Including:
A) One side prepares to ambush another.
B) Transitioning into combat, ie handling the Combat Swoosh cleanly without all this pre-combat manipulating
C) Not having to stay in combat time all the time and micromanage the in-game reality on a round by round basis.

(Note that in some versions of D&D they actually did manage it on a Turn by Turn basis out of combat, because written by wargamers.)


Says who? You?

Those are all technically potentially pertinent outside of combat as well though I admit that more often or not their usage would also cause combat to be initiated.
lol what part of "Actions in Combat" is hard to understand?

Outside of combat you just do stuff. You don't need actions to do them. Making Ready outside of combat a pointless exercise.

[dejarnjc]

lol what part of "Actions in Combat" is hard to understand?

Outside of combat you just do stuff. You don't need actions to do them. Making Ready outside of combat a pointless exercise.

Sorry you're just going to have to explain to my poor tiny brain why an action in combat can't be performed outside of combat...


I mean per either the rules or some sort of implied consistent logic in the game.

[DivisibleByZero]

Says who? You?

Those are all technically potentially pertinent outside of combat as well though I admit that more often or not their usage would also cause combat to be initiated.

Says the rules.


READY
Som etim es you want to get the jum p on a foe or wait for
a particular circum stance before you act. To do so, you
can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can
act later in the round using your reaction.
First, you decide what perceivable circum stance
will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action
you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose
to move up to your speed in response to it. Exam ples
include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the
lever that opens it,” and “If the goblin steps next to me,
I move away.”
W hen the trigger occurs, you can either take your
reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore
the trigger. Rem em ber that you can take only one
reaction per round.
W hen you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but
hold its energy, which you release with your reaction
when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must
have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the
spell’s m agic requires concentration (explained in
chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell
dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are
concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile,
your web spell ends, and if you take damage before
you release magic missile with your reaction, your
concentration might be broken.

Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow
you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction
is an instant response to a trigger of som e kind, which
can occu r on your turn or on som eone else’s. The
opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the
m ost com m on type of reaction.
W hen you take a reaction, you can’t take another one
until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts
another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its
turn right after the reaction.


Ready requires your reaction and specifies on your Turn. Outside of combat, you don't *HAVE* a Turn. That's solely a combat term.
So those three (Ready/Disengage/Dodge) are completely in-combat actions.
If you are using one of them, you are in combat. If you are not in combat, you are not using any of them.

[dejarnjc]

Says the rules.


READY
Som etim es you want to get the jum p on a foe or wait for
a particular circum stance before you act. To do so, you
can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can
act later in the round using your reaction.
First, you decide what perceivable circum stance
will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action
you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose
to move up to your speed in response to it. Exam ples
include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the
lever that opens it,” and “If the goblin steps next to me,
I move away.”
W hen the trigger occurs, you can either take your
reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore
the trigger. Rem em ber that you can take only one
reaction per round.
W hen you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but
hold its energy, which you release with your reaction
when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must
have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the
spell’s m agic requires concentration (explained in
chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell
dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are
concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile,
your web spell ends, and if you take damage before
you release magic missile with your reaction, your
concentration might be broken.

Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow
you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction
is an instant response to a trigger of som e kind, which
can occu r on your turn or on som eone else’s. The
opportunity attack, described later in this chapter, is the
m ost com m on type of reaction.
W hen you take a reaction, you can’t take another one
until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts
another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its
turn right after the reaction.


Ready requires your reaction and specifies on your Turn. Outside of combat, you don't *HAVE* a Turn. That's solely a combat term.
So those three are completely in-combat actions.

Guess you can't "Use an Object" since it requires an action which you don't have out of combat.

Also can't use "Help" outside of combat than either since it specifies your turn.

Also guess that you can't use absorb elements if a fire trap goes off under you since you're not in combat and don't have a turn and thus don't have a reaction by your logic.

[dejarnjc]

Regardless, RAW it's clearly not prohibited though you can obviously interpret it however you will. YMMV.

Seems to me the most logically consistent thing to do is to allow it as other Reaction type abilities are generally allowed to be used outside of combat.


MOST importantly is if the players suggest it then I highly recommend saying YES as it encourages player participation, encourages tactical thinking, and is simply more fun for them in general. I also have a hard time seeing how this could be abused.

Peace, I'm out for the weekend.

[ProphetSword]

Guess you can't "Use an Object" since it requires an action which you don't have out of combat.

Also can't use "Help" outside of combat than either since it specifies your turn.

Also guess that you can't use absorb elements if a fire trap goes off under you since you're not in combat and don't have a turn and thus don't have a reaction by your logic.

You are correct. You cannot use the "Use the Object Action", "Cast a Spell Action" or the "Help Action" outside of combat. This, however, does not mean that you cannot help someone do something, interact with an object or cast a spell at another time during the course of play. The rules allow for this.

This, from Sage Advice, might also clarify:

Question: Can players use the ready action before initiative is rolled (essentially guaranteeing a free surprise round)?

Answer: The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative.

Found here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/06/can-players-use-the-ready-action-before-initiative-is-rolled/).

[Mikal]

Which goes back to my earlier saying that real world logic should not always be applied to game books. They have an internal logic which doesn't always mesh with the real world, and the RAW here are pretty plain.

[Typhon]

Which goes back to my earlier saying that real world logic should not always be applied to game books. They have an internal logic which doesn't always mesh with the real world, and the RAW here are pretty plain.

Real world logic goes like this, even if you ready for action it is not combat until you are in combat. You are simply ready for combat. If when in combat you ready to complete an action, as RAW states, that is holding your action.

I think they should alter the wording for the combat action ready to instead say hold action, as that seems to be how the RAW is to be interpreted as stated by the official sources. Yet there is a disconnect in the real world definition of the word ready and the definition of the action called ready in the RAW.

[Laserlight]

I'd say "You're readying your bow, the rogue has both knives out, etc? Okay, you're ready for combat and if there are enemies on the other side, you're not risking Surprise. No, you don't get a Readied Action on top of that."

[BeefGood]

Originally I was in the SWAT team camp--allow PCs to run their first round actions according to a plan, in other words, regardless of initiative. But now I think it's simpler and just as realistic to bring everything under the combat umbrella. As soon as hostilities commence or seem imminent, roll initiative. I see initiative as not only sequencing things but also determining if the plans you made before combat worked as intended. Maybe the plan was for the tank to enter the room first and absorb all the enemy arrows. But if he rolls low initiative, that means that his visor fell down over his face and he had to burn a second or two to lift it up. Sometimes plans don't work out.

[Tanarii]

Originally I was in the SWAT team camp--allow PCs to run their first round actions according to a plan, in other words, regardless of initiative.
PCs can already do swat team tactics if you start with them outside the door. Ready an Action to move into the room after the guy you want to follow moves. Then attack next round on their initiative count as normal. (Or action surge or whatever to get another action to attack.)

Or you can just do what I do, and assume they did that, and start with them just inside the room. Or at least, those that want to be. Then roll initiative then. Same thing for the most part, unless they're planning to toss in some flash bangs (or a fireball) first. In which case I'll roll initiative with them set up outside the door, when it opens, and they can take actions (or Ready an Action if they want to wait to take one) on their initiative count as usual.

[BeefGood]

You are correct. You cannot use the "Use the Object Action", "Cast a Spell Action" or the "Help Action" outside of combat. This, however, does not mean that you cannot help someone do something, interact with an object or cast a spell at another time during the course of play. The rules allow for this.

This, from Sage Advice, might also clarify:

Question: Can players use the ready action before initiative is rolled (essentially guaranteeing a free surprise round)?

Answer: The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative.

Found here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/06/can-players-use-the-ready-action-before-initiative-is-rolled/).

I've found some little things which seem to be in tension with this. MM176, hag coven sidebar: "a hag...can take an action to see what the hag eye sees" There's no hint of combat but even so the combat-like language "take an action" is used. In other words they could have written "a hag can see what the hag eye sees. In combat, this requires an action" But they didn't write that. So RAW, a hag can't look through the hag eye unless she's in combat.

[Tanarii]

I've found some little things which seem to be in tension with this. MM176, hag coven sidebar: "a hag...can take an action to see what the hag eye sees" There's no hint of combat but even so the combat-like language "take an action" is used. In other words they could have written "a hag can see what the hag eye sees. In combat, this requires an action" But they didn't write that. So RAW, a hag can't look through the hag eye unless she's in combat.The entire idea of taking actions, or readying an action, for outside of combat doesn't make any sense. It's ignore than actions (and readying them) are a meta-game process for tactical resolution that only have any relevance inside of combat.

In other words, there's not necessarily anything to stop you from "taking an action" outside of combat, but actions are meaningless. Likewise, attempting to ready an action just prior to combat, or outside of combat, misses the entire point of the combat system's purpose. As well as that it has built in mechanisms to handle that idea anyway, called surprise & initiative.

[BeefGood]

PCs can already do swat team tactics if you start with them outside the door. Ready an Action to move into the room after the guy you want to follow moves. Then attack next round on their initiative count as normal. (Or action surge or whatever to get another action to attack.)
.

Agreed. What I like about this is that the players have to pay at least a small price for the SWAT tactics. They have to use their reactions if the initiative order does not turn out as they wished. You alluded to this with the action surge. Also if the monsters are not surprised, they may be able to foil the tactics.

[BeefGood]

In other words, there's not necessarily anything to stop you from "taking an action" outside of combat, but actions are meaningless. .

Right. Which is why it would have been preferable to reserve the combat-like language "take an action" for combat situations. The poor hag stirring her cauldron just wants to look through the eye, so it should have been written that way. It's obviously not a big deal, but I think that "combat is combat and not-combat is not combat" is a very helpful principle so this "violation" of that principle jumped out at me.

[Yuroch Kern]

A few party members tend to ready actions before combat is initiated. For example, before they open a door the hunter says: 'I ready my action for it there is a creature behind it. If there is I shoot it with my crossbow.'

Should I treat this as a possible surprise attack giving them an 'extra' attack round? It happens a lot and I am not sure how to deal with it. I could also let the ready action trigger before combat, but treat it as his normal action which triggered earlier.

Any advice on how to deal with such ready actions would be appreciated.

Well, until initiative is rolled, the party has no idea if whatever is behind that door is aware of them. All they are is prepped for action, i.e. swords drawn, shield ready, Bless pre-cast, etc. What then happens is standard Perception rolls on whatever is there. Success? The door is splintered, and the party tries to roll higher than the mooks initiative, no surprise. The mooks fail? Surprise round, as standard. Holding/readying is more for during combat rounds, like actually waiting AFTER the cleric heals you to charge or to cover the doorway that the slower peeps are escaping through. neing prepared and saving action economy is different than the "Readied" action and gets confusef between the two alot.

[Typhon]

I feel this is starting to devolve into a rabbit hole of RAW vs RAI. I think the big issue is that wording and phrasing used for some of the rules tends to be ambiguous. Ready, in daily use, can be a question, a statement, or a preparatory command. Ready by the RAW is a combat action in which an attack or action is held until blah and cannot be used outside combat. Ready as RAI can be seen as holding your action in combat.

Here is the thing, everyone runs their game as they want. If you want to run it on a constant combat type system, then go for it but know it isn't for everyone. If you want more free form, that is good too but still not for everyone. If a DM doesn't like how his players are running real world tactics in the fantasy game he is running fine, talk to them and try to reach a compromise or at least an understanding. If the DM doesn't mind or knows how he is going to handle such things, cool but understand that it is a group social game and some might get upset if they see it differently. You are going to have a discussion one way or the other and most likely someone is going to have hurt feelings unless it is handled tactfully.

Some will say that the rules are to be followed to the letter regardless of most anything else. Some will say they are a guide, and that the enjoyment of the game is more important. How many DMs and players have bent a RAW or RAI for the sake of the group story and fun? How many have hurt and upset people because the RAI or RAW was more important than the fun and group story? Figure out what is more important for the enjoyment of the group.

I have stated my opinion, you can ready what some consider a combat action and if you just fire it blindly either causing colateral damage or is completely worthless and wastes resources. If on the other hand you ready for the combat and roll in stacked, then that is just regular combat and any surprise is up to the DM based on how the players are handling themselves as a group. Storming strongholds and dungeons is dirty business, and if a party is reckless innocents get hurt. If the party is playing dumb, they will most likely be killed. If the players want to play smart and play it real, then the DM should play it like it was real.

How the game is played is something that the DM and the players should talk about and come to an agreement on before playing. It is also something they should discuss every so often just to check in. This ensures that they are all still in agreement as to the play style and any issues, real or perceived, can be hashed out with minimal impact to the actual game.

[sir_argo]

I started another thread on pretty much this same topic before I saw this thread. I used a different example, other than party outside a door.

If the party is outside the door, "readying" to burst open the door... that sounds like a stealth check, i.e. surprise. If you succeeded, the enemies on the other side of the door don't get to take actions on their first round, while the party does. If the party fails the stealth check, then the enemies heard the party and "ready" their actions too. When the door opens, it's just regular initiative. I don't really see this as using the Ready Action.

However, in my thread I used a different example where the two sides are face to face but haven't started swinging yet. The two leaders are parlaying and one guy on one side decides he's had enough and decides to act. One responder said that technically combat has started, just nobody is taking regular actions. In this case, everyone DOES have a readied action. I think that was a solution for my example.

But I have another example that just seems weird to me. Rogue with Sharpshooter, Boots of Elvenkind and Ring of Invisibility (this is the rogue in the campaign I play in) is 600 yards from a guard on a wall. He goes for a sneak attack. In a normal round, it would be assumed that the guard is surprised and during round 1 the guard would get no actions or reactions. However, as it turns out, the guard has the Alert feat. He can't be surprised. So initiative is rolled as normal and the guard wins initiative. So round 1... the guard goes... at what? The guard cannot perceive the Rogue at all. It's dark. He can't see 600 yards through darkness. He can't even hear the rogue. But somehow, he gets to take an action first. How would you handle this?

[Arial Black]

However, in my thread I used a different example where the two sides are face to face but haven't started swinging yet. The two leaders are parlaying and one guy on one side decides he's had enough and decides to act. One responder said that technically combat has started, just nobody is taking regular actions. In this case, everyone DOES have a readied action. I think that was a solution for my example.

Combat doesn't start until someone chooses to actually take hostile action. Merely thinking about hostilities is not combat, therefore combat has not begun, initiative has not been rolled, and Actions In Combat (including the Ready action) may not be used.

In your example, when it does all kick off this is how the rules handle it: first, the DM has to adjudicate if the person who attacks first is trying to conceal this fact or if he is going to shout, "LEEROY JENKINS!" first! If he makes it obvious that he's going to initiate combat then no-one is 'surprised' in game terms; initiative is rolled and creatures act in order. Mr. Jenkins may end up acting last, but it serves him right for shouting his intentions.

If the original attacker is trying for a sudden, surprise attack hoping to catch the target off-guard, then an opposed check is needed. Perception/Stealth (the usual murderhobo go to) is not appropriate here; everybody is aware of the presence of everyone else. What is trying to be concealed is not the presence of the attacker but the intention to attack. Therefore roll Deception for the attacker trying to conceal his deadly intentions and roll Insight for everyone else to see if they notice his hostile body language in time. Those who fail their Insight check suffer the game effects of surprise.

Note that they suffer these effects whether or not they kind of expected a fight to break out! Remember that the game mechanics of surprise are all about how quickly (or slowly) you are to react when a fight starts, not about your expectations of hostilities! The game mechanics are that you cannot use reactions until after your first turn in combat and cannot move or take actions on your first turn.

What the sneaky sucker-puncher is hoping for is that the target (and his mates) do not notice his hostile move until it's too late. In game terms, they failed their Insight checks (because they did not beat his Deception check). Everyone rolls initiative, surprised or not. Then the DM counts down initiative.

If the count comes to a person who is not surprised (because he saw the sucker-puncher 'go for his gun', metaphorically speaking) then he can act normally, including getting his retaliation in first!

If the initiative count comes to a person who is surprised (because he didn't notice the guy making a fist) then he cannot move or act, but after his turn he may react normally.

When it comes to the attackers initiative, he rolls his attack. He is hoping that the target is surprised, because then he may get extra bonuses (depending on his abilities) and the target cannot take any reactions. If the (surprised) target is reacts faster (rolled higher initiative) then he will be able to take reactions, like shield or Uncanny Dodge. That's why being fast is useful in a fight!

No-one is automatically successful just because they want to be! Everyone gets a fair chance. The sucker-puncher cannot simply bypass the target's senses and defences just because his player shouted "I attack"" first! Similarly, you cannot make your character immune to surprise just by declaring that your PC is "Expecting trouble" all the time!


But I have another example that just seems weird to me. Rogue with Sharpshooter, Boots of Elvenkind and Ring of Invisibility (this is the rogue in the campaign I play in) is 600 yards from a guard on a wall. He goes for a sneak attack. In a normal round, it would be assumed that the guard is surprised and during round 1 the guard would get no actions or reactions. However, as it turns out, the guard has the Alert feat. He can't be surprised. So initiative is rolled as normal and the guard wins initiative. So round 1... the guard goes... at what? The guard cannot perceive the Rogue at all. It's dark. He can't see 600 yards through darkness. He can't even hear the rogue. But somehow, he gets to take an action first. How would you handle this?

Being immune to surprise does not mean that you can't be....astonished or that nothing unexpected can happen to you. It just means that you never suffer the game mechanics of surprise: you can always take reactions and always move/act on your first turn.

Being immune to surprise is not the same thing as a successful Perception check, even though the most common way to determine surprise is through a Perception check!

If the guard was not immune to surprise then the DM may just announce that the guard is surprised, given the invisible/600 yards thing. Better form is to roll, but remember the disadvantage/advantage rules and apply then to the checks. It is possible, though unlikely, that the guard catches the arrow out of the corner of his eye and can react before the arrow actually catches the guard in the eye!

But if the guard has the Alert feat then you do not need to roll a Perception check versus your Stealth check to determine if the guard is surprised, because the feat already establishes that the guard is definitely not surprised! However, the guard should still get a perception check to see if he notices you. This probably will fail, given the invisibility/600 yard thing.

So you shoot the arrow. The guard is not surprised because Alert, but does not actually notice you because invisible/600 yards. Initiative is rolled.

If you rolled higher initiative then you resolve your attack. Because the guard is not surprised then he may use any useful reaction he may have, like shield/Uncanny Dodge. His finely-honed senses save him at the last moment. Maybe.

But if the guard rolls higher initiative then his turn takes place after the arrow is shot but before that shot is resolved. How does that make sense? What does he act against?

Excellent questions. Here are the answers:-

The Alert feat means that he is not surprised. "I've got a bad feeling about this!" "It's quiet. Too quiet!"

The Alert feat does not mean that he spots you! He cannot act against you because he doesn't know you are there! He just knows that something is wrong (combat is about to start) but does not know why; he just trusts his instincts that have saved his life countless times in the past. This is why he never shaves off those hairs at the back of his neck!

So, guard's turn, what does he do? He knows combat is about to start, but doesn't know exactly how. He can use his wisdom and experience. He is guarding a wall after all! He may assume, rightly or wrongly, that an attack is coming from the other side of the wall. Because the wall is high he may assume a ranged weapon. All reasonable assumptions, and in this case they happen to be true. He may use his turn to move into cover behind the wall, may take the Dodge action or cast a spell or sound an alarm or whatever. Of course, these actions won't help if the danger is actually from an adjacent invisible assassin with a poisoned dagger, but you have to play the percentages if you want to be an old guard!

Since it was you saying that you were shooting the arrow that started the combat, then you have already chosen what your first action is: you shot an arrow at the guard! Between you loosing the bowstring and the arrow reaching the guard, the guard had his first turn. Resolve the attack. It may be wasted because the guard ducked behind cover. Them's the breaks.

It should be noted that NPC's, especially nameless guards, will very, very rarely have any feats at all! 5E just isn't made that way. But if your 5th level barbarian with the Alert feat happened to be on guard the night the invisible assassin turns up, how would you feel if the DM blithely disregarded the rules of the game you thought you were playing and ignored the fact that your only feat was being casually ignored at the moment it was designed to save your life?

[Typhon]

But I have another example that just seems weird to me. Rogue with Sharpshooter, Boots of Elvenkind and Ring of Invisibility (this is the rogue in the campaign I play in) is 600 yards from a guard on a wall. He goes for a sneak attack. In a normal round, it would be assumed that the guard is surprised and during round 1 the guard would get no actions or reactions. However, as it turns out, the guard has the Alert feat. He can't be surprised. So initiative is rolled as normal and the guard wins initiative. So round 1... the guard goes... at what? The guard cannot perceive the Rogue at all. It's dark. He can't see 600 yards through darkness. He can't even hear the rogue. But somehow, he gets to take an action first. How would you handle this?

That is called an assassination.

[mephnick]

Why does the guard have the Alert feat? He's an NPC and should have been built as a monster, not a PC.

[djreynolds]

Reverse the discussion. The players are in the room, sleeping, no one on guard.

Monsters barge in to attack. I would make PCs Roll a perception check, with or without advantage, depending on quality of snacks and munchies

Those who pass, can roll initiative. Can use half their movement to stand, and interact with item to grab a weapon and so on.

Those who failed IMO are awake but are still lying down.

I might be inclined to give the monsters advantage on their initiative rolls

[Malifice]

I dont understand why people find this so hard to wrap their heads around.

The DM declares when the 'combat' sequence starts. He then calls for all participants to roll initiative to determine reaction time for the resultant combat.

Then; in initiative order, every combatant takes turns. Surprised combatants cannot take actions or move on turn one, and cant take reactions until after their turn 1 ends.

Turns dont exist otherwise. They are an abstraction used only during 'combat time'.

The assumption is you are always ready for threats around you, on high alert and 'ready' to attack or cast a spell at the first monster you see. For the times you are not, there are the rules for surprise.

If a DM made some kind of silly 'ready outside of combat' rule, I'd quit his campaign. Its silly, unecessary, and demonstrates a poor understanding of the working of the rules from that DM.

[Tanarii]

If the original attacker is trying for a sudden, surprise attack hoping to catch the target off-guard, then an opposed check is needed. Perception/Stealth (the usual murderhobo go to) is not appropriate here; everybody is aware of the presence of everyone else. What is trying to be concealed is not the presence of the attacker but the intention to attack. Therefore roll Deception for the attacker trying to conceal his deadly intentions and roll Insight for everyone else to see if they notice his hostile body language in time. Those who fail their Insight check suffer the game effects of surprise.


That is called an assassination.I use (Charisma) Deception vs (Wisdom) Insight to determine surprise in certain situations, and assassinations during a large social interaction is one of them.

In a tense interaction / negotiation / Mexican stand off, I usually don't allow any kind of check at all. If someone was being tricky trying to conceal their initial attack somehow, off the top of my head probably something to do with a loaded hand crossbow, I'd probably rule a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) vs Wisdom (Perception or Insight) check. But otherwise not only is there no chance of surprise in that case, but also initiative absolutely determines reaction time when violence explodes. Multiple people could react to someone initiativing violence before they can act if the initiator has Dex 8, for example.

But absolutely it should not be ruled as 'combat has already started' ... that messes up the entire underlying concepts of the combat rules. Both mechanically and conceptually.

[BeefGood]

I dont understand why people find this so hard to wrap their heads around.

The DM declares when the 'combat' sequence starts. He then calls for all participants to roll initiative to determine reaction time for the resultant combat.


Threads on this topic (readying outside of combat) or closely related issues pop up fairly consistently so there's probably a reason. I think one reason is that the books do not have a sentence like this: "Combat begins when such-and-such happens." Or even better, "The Combat state begins when such-and-such happens."
If there is such a sentence please point me to it!

[DivisibleByZero]

Threads on this topic (readying outside of combat) or closely related issues pop up fairly consistently so there's probably a reason. I think one reason is that the books do not have a sentence like this: "Combat begins when such-and-such happens." Or even better, "The Combat state begins when such-and-such happens."
If there is such a sentence please point me to it!

Page 189, PHB, bottom left

Combat Step By Step.
1. Determine surprise
2. Establish positions
3. Roll initiative
4. Take turns
5. Begin the next round

[Telok]

Well that certainly takes the pressure off in hostage situations.

BBEG has the princess chained up and is holding a knife to her throat? As long as the thief rolls well on initative he can walk over, pick the locks, and remove the chains before the bad guy can even blink. Then the princess can just walk away on her turn because daggers only do a d4 of damage.

[Tanarii]

Well that certainly takes the pressure off in hostage situations.

BBEG has the princess chained up and is holding a knife to her throat? As long as the thief rolls well on initative he can walk over, pick the locks, and remove the chains before the bad guy can even blink. Then the princess can just walk away on her turn because daggers only do a d4 of damage.
This is a situation in which it would qualify for one of two things:

DM ruling that they will determining surprise with a non-standard surprise method. Or just rule it automatic surprise. (I'll be clear, both of those would be overriding the standard surprise rules for this specific scenario.)

DM granting advantage to the BBEG initiative, and/or disadvantage to the thief. It's explicit in the DMG that they can and should grant advantage/disadvantage to rolls if they believe the situation qualifies. So ... if the thief can beat the BBEG's init roll with advantage while rolling his own with disadvantage ... checks out. The thief is just that good.

Edit: And the obvious one: Stop setting up contrived situations intended to break the combat rules. :smallyuk:

[sir_argo]

Edit: And the obvious one: Stop setting up contrived situations intended to break the combat rules. :smallyuk:

Um, these are not wildly unusual situations. They are situations that will routinely happen to PC's. I don't see a problem with trying to either A) explain how the RAW rules adequately handle the situation, or B) determine RAI or house rule that would. Only way to do that is vet examples. Telok is exactly right in pointing out that the regular rules of combat won't work in an example that is very likely to be encountered during regular gaming. Just rolling initiative and starting at round 1 would not work.

[Tanarii]

Um, these are not wildly unusual situations. They are situations that will routinely happen to PC's. I don't see a problem with trying to either A) explain how the RAW rules adequately handle the situation, or B) determine RAI or house rule that would. Only way to do that is vet examples. Telok is exactly right in pointing out that the regular rules of combat won't work in an example that is very likely to be encountered during regular gaming. Just rolling initiative and starting at round 1 would not work.If BBEG holding a helpless prisoner is a regular gaming situation for you, you're going to have to write some house-rules or use my suggestion for advantage / disadvantage. It's certainly not a regular gaming situation I've ever encountered.

What is a regular gaming situation is:
players wanting to do a SWAT style entry through a door to assault the enemies on the other side.
conversation suddenly erupts in combat

And the default combat rules handle that just fine.

[mephnick]

Yeah if the PC's can't disable the bbeg before he acts, likely utilizing surprise somehow, then he slits the princess's throat and kills her with his action (I'm assuming she has commoner stats and will die in one hit). Don't put your npc's in deadly situations unless you're ready to kill them. The PC's shouldn't have let it get to that point if they had a choice. If you set it up that way as a DM then it's your fault the princess dies because it's your duty to kill her if the PC's don't succeed.

[Typhon]

Can we all agree that the rules fail at some point for somethings and those things are going to have to be handled by rule of the DM in such a manner that it does not totally upset the whole table.

I thought that this discussion had pretty much wrapped up while I was gone. Shows how much I know.

[Tanarii]

Can we all agree that the rules fail at some point for somethings and those things are going to have to be handled by rule of the DM in such a manner that it does not totally upset the whole table. Yes. Even in a heavy abstraction rule-set like D&D, that's pretty much a given.

[BeefGood]

Page 189, PHB, bottom left

Combat Step By Step.
1. Determine surprise
2. Establish positions
3. Roll initiative
4. Take turns
5. Begin the next round

That sequence does not tell you when to start combat. It tells you how to run combat once it is started.

[Demonslayer666]

You can't ready an action for combat to start, otherwise everyone would always be doing that, and that's just silly and breaks how combat starts.

This scenario can be handled with surprise and initiative (and advantage/disadvantage if you like) without any need for readying an action.

The first thing to consider is what is happening inside the room, and determine if they could be surprised, and factor in any advantages or disadvantages.

[Breashios]

Why does the guard have the Alert feat? He's an NPC and should have been built as a monster, not a PC.

I believe you can build a monster with any feat or feat equivalent ability you desire it to have.

[lperkins2]

So, it occurs to me that there is not much for defined structure for running things 'out of combat'. This was, I'm sure, intentional, to allow for a wider variety of DM styles. Unless there is something I've missed, one perfectly RAW way to run the out-of-combat portions of dungeon delving is exactly the same as you run the in-combat portions. If there is some Rule saying that characters doing things are to be yelled out in a free-for-all, or any other format, I missed it. There are plenty of short examples of how many groups run the out-of-combat sections, but nothing saying it may not be done a particular way.

I don't think anyone is arguing that RAW requires the DM to allow combat actions outside of combat, only that it is not against RAW to do so. Even the sage advice from Jeremy Crawford only reiterates that the combat actions and combat rules were designed for combat; by implication they have not been play-tested extensively for use outside of combat. That makes allowing their use a ruling (same as a hag looking, or casting a spell, when not in combat), not a home-brew rule.

[DivisibleByZero]

That sequence does not tell you when to start combat. It tells you how to run combat once it is started.

Are you kidding me?
Okay, I'll revise it slightly for people that can't read between the lines.

Page 189, PHB, bottom left

Combat Step By Step.
0. Combat starts now
1. Determine surprise
2. Establish positions
3. Roll initiative
4. Take turns (this is the first time that anyone will be able to use the Ready action)
5. Begin the next round

[BeefGood]

Are you kidding me?
Okay, I'll revise it slightly for people that can't read between the lines.

Page 189, PHB, bottom left

Combat Step By Step.
0. Combat starts now
1. Determine surprise
2. Establish positions
3. Roll initiative
4. Take turns (this is the first time that anyone will be able to use the Ready action)
5. Begin the next round

I'm not kidding! In the list above, Step 0, I don't know when is "now". Is it when the party sees the monsters? When nasty words are exchanged? When someone shoots an arrow? DM discretion?
My point is not so much "I don't know when to start combat" but rather, that the rule books do not provide a clear answer, and I think that's part of the reason that these readying/SWAT team discussions keep coming up.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm not kidding! In the list above, Step 0, I don't know when is "now". Is it when the party sees the monsters? When nasty words are exchanged? When someone shoots an arrow? DM discretion?
My point is not so much "I don't know when to start combat" but rather, that the rule books do not provide a clear answer, and I think that's part of the reason that these readying/SWAT team discussions keep coming up.

It's irrelevant.
Initiative is your tool for determining in which order things happen. You can take the Ready action on your turn in initiative.
Outside of combat, there is no "Ready action" and it is assumed that you're either prepared for things or you're surprised.
The exact moment that combat begins is not a factor.

[N810]

https://youtu.be/5drjr9PmTMA