PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Need assistance homebrewing a sorcerer customization (Spellshaper-like)



Jorgumander
2017-03-10, 12:54 PM
Hey all! Long time reader, first time poster here. Experienced playing DnD from 2E through to now playing (DMing) a 5E game with my children! Has been super fun finally getting to play with my kids as we learn the system together. However, I would like to tweak out the Sorcerer class to more closely match a Spellshaper-like class from MtG, which we all have experience playing.

Specifically what I like about the Sorcerer is it's ability to use metamagic, so I would like to keep that aspect. I love the Sorcerery point system, but in our house rules, we add the Charisma Modifier to the total as well. Also did a conversion to allow the points to be used to make more spell slots all the way up to 9th level. Especially enjoy the spontaneous spellcasting.

Things I'm not a fan of, are the ultra-limited spells known. Heck, even the Bard gets more spells known! While I understand a little of why this is the way it is, it's just not helping much in our home campaign. Every other caster type seems to gain or have the ability for spontaneous spellcasting as well, so it seems a little unfair that the Sorc gets the shaft as hard as it does here.

While I have stated my opinion on the matter, I invite others to as well, but it's not meant as a debate topic as much as to show why I feel the way I do so I can get a little help fixing it in our home campaign.

Sorcerers seem like the kind of class that SHOULD make the best specialists in a school, if they were made just a little differently. Therefore, instead of delving into the Color Wheel of MtG and jumbling up those rules so much, what I would PREFER to do is simply make Sorcerers able to know more spells, but from a much more limited set of Schools of Magic.

For instance, what I am thinking, is that at level 1, you pick a school to have access to. Perhaps you know 2-3 EXTRA spells from said school + Universal (if that's still a thing in 5E...can't recall as my books are at home). Effectively, you would gain knowledge of spells known somewhat equivalent to what a bard would know. Where it would get a little more interesting, and this is where I'm struggling the most, is I want the SSorcerer to, over the course of 20 levels, either gain bonuses to Spell School Specialized in OR gain access to additional schools.

Example: You could Choose say, Necromancy as the school you will focus in. At say 3rd level, you would either gain a +1 bonus (not sure to how to implement this bonus yet) OR choose a second school to have access to. This would continue through all 20 levels. Eventually giving you a potential of a +5 bonus to 1 school of magic or allowing you access to up to 5 schools total. If you choose a little of each choice, you simply split the bonuses between the schools focused in.

Example: Perhaps at 3rd level, you decide to focus on the one school. So Necromancy gains the +1 bonus (or whatever is decided on) and then at the next opportunity to gain a bonus, you decide to add Abjuration. So now Necromancy has the +1 bonus still, and Abjuration has no bonus, but you have access to it. At the next opportunity, you decide these two schools are fine. So they both gain an additional +1 bonus. Necromancy moves up to +2 total while Abjuration gains a +1. Next opportunity you stick with it again, granting both schools an additional +1. Necromancy goes up to +3, while Abjuration goes to +2. Next and final (unless I miscounted) you decide to add one more school to your repertoire. You settle on Divination. So by level 20, you would have a +3 to Necromancy, +2 to Abjuration, and +0 to Divination.

I hope that made sense.

But what should the bonuses be? + to caster level? Could be cool, but could really be abused maybe too? ++ to spell level? Say for instance, it's a freebie upgrade to cast spells from that school. So say you choose Evocation and focus all the way on it. By level 20, you would have a +5 bonus, right? So even though you are casting it as a 1st level spell only, it would COUNT as being cast from a 6th level spell slot. You wouldn't have to spend the higher level slot to get that boost. Which could be powerful...but you are also limited severely by only having access to Evocation spells. Even though you would know 22 of them.

I really hope this makes sense and I could REALLY use your help here. Thank you all so much!

noob
2017-03-10, 01:08 PM
The reason the sorcerer gets few spells known is to make it different from wizard.
Would this sorcerer be significantly different from a refluffed wizard who would willingly decide to not take spells in N schools.
Would it be balanced with it(do not forget spontaneous access to a lot of spells is really hard to balance and you will walk around with 22 spells and will be able to cast any of them at any time)
I think that the number of spells to which the character will have access is a very hard part.
I have a question will that sorcerer also keeps the other sorcerer class features?

Jorgumander
2017-03-10, 01:19 PM
The reason the sorcerer gets few spells known is to make it different from wizard.
Would this sorcerer be significantly different from a refluffed wizard who would willingly decide to not take spells in N schools.
Would it be balanced with it(do not forget spontaneous access to a lot of spells is really hard to balance and you will walk around with 22 spells and will be able to cast any of them at any time)
I think that the number of spells to which the character will have access is a very hard part.

22 Isn't set in stone. It's more a bar I would like to set to get close to in some way.

As for how similar it would be to a wizard, again, not sure. None of the kids are interested in playing wizards. But they like playing Sorcerers, Barbarians, and a homebrewed Princess class that is actually pretty neato. The youngest plays a homebrewed dragon class that someone else made, and it's working out pretty well.

What I'm running into is that the one playing the sorcerer wants a few more spells known. I'm on his side in this.

He also really likes Spellshapers from MtG. So what he and I settled on was to limit School access to make it more similar to that. I admit this may all be a little jumbled to understand.

I would be willing to have anywhere from no extra spells known to maybe just a handful (3-5) maybe? Not sure. But when we discussed a bonus somehow to the limited spells known we both REALLY liked the idea.

Would something like that work out alright, do you think? Granting either bonuses to school focus or access to more schools. Player choice on advancement?

noob
2017-03-10, 01:24 PM
I always think that classes are better when there is choice: it allows people to feel more unique and some people consider building their character an important part.
But since it is tailored for a particular person it becomes more based on what that person wants: does he wants to lose a few minutes choosing which schools he picks or does he just want to pick a school only one time and then play.
Also since you chose schools you could have bonuses based on schools: when using divination you do not really care about having a boost to spell level or caster level of your divination while getting some bonuses of other kinds might be neat(picking one time divination on five picks is quite a normal idea: having one divination spell helps a lot to collect info).
(For the bonuses based on schools you might even recycle a bit the wizard specializations but make access to them not linked to only level but also to number of times you pick up a school but then some picks would be too good(like first pick in divination) and would need change)

Jorgumander
2017-03-12, 01:12 AM
I always think that classes are better when there is choice: it allows people to feel more unique and some people consider building their character an important part.
But since it is tailored for a particular person it becomes more based on what that person wants: does he wants to lose a few minutes choosing which schools he picks or does he just want to pick a school only one time and then play.
Also since you chose schools you could have bonuses based on schools: when using divination you do not really care about having a boost to spell level or caster level of your divination while getting some bonuses of other kinds might be neat(picking one time divination on five picks is quite a normal idea: having one divination spell helps a lot to collect info).
(For the bonuses based on schools you might even recycle a bit the wizard specializations but make access to them not linked to only level but also to number of times you pick up a school but then some picks would be too good(like first pick in divination) and would need change)

I'm not sure I understand. Like allowing minor access to the Divination School? I like that idea! :)

Jorgumander
2017-03-12, 02:01 PM
How about something like this? Since certain spells would benefit greatly and certain not at all, could do some other way to not only focus a Sorcerer's spells, but give them a few more.

Level 1) Every Sorcerer gains access to Divination. Then each Sorcerer chooses 2 school to have access to. Then the Sorcerer Spell list could be slightly expanded, I suppose. Give them access to some Bard or Clerical or Warlock spells? Not sure. At 5th or so level, gain another school access? What about higher levels? Basically the payoff for gaining more spells known would be that they are from a very limited focus. Hmmm

Spells known: upped slightly, so Sorc has option of learning at least 2 spells up to 9th.

Cantrips known, remains the same as it is for a Sorcerer.

Sorcerey Points: same plus CHA bonus.

Metamagic: Same

Bloodlines: Same (except Dragons gain permanent resistance to energy type)

Jorgumander
2017-03-12, 02:03 PM
And I would say that cantrips known don't count against you not focusing in a school. Fair?

noob
2017-03-12, 03:07 PM
Usually 3.5 wizards could ban two schools without too much trouble:evocation and necromancy and enchantment are common picks for banning.
Banning three schools starts being more restraining and if you do not have as much spells as a wizard then banning 3 schools is a huge trade(but since you do that for getting more spells it is not a bad trade).
So he probably needs at least five schools.
(iI he gets only four he will be quite too much specialized basically if you give up more than 3 schools you give up on something crucial)
At the same time someone who considers wizards boring is probably going to ban something else than evocation and is thus going to miss more cool things than a wizard who starts by banning evocation unless he is cool with the idea of ground control.
Cantrips are usually not a balance problem so letting someone gets cantrips from all the schools is not going to be a huge trouble.

Jorgumander
2017-03-12, 06:09 PM
Usually 3.5 wizards could ban two schools without too much trouble:evocation and necromancy and enchantment are common picks for banning.
Banning three schools starts being more restraining and if you do not have as much spells as a wizard then banning 3 schools is a huge trade(but since you do that for getting more spells it is not a bad trade).
So he probably needs at least five schools.
(iI he gets only four he will be quite too much specialized basically if you give up more than 3 schools you give up on something crucial)
At the same time someone who considers wizards boring is probably going to ban something else than evocation and is thus going to miss more cool things than a wizard who starts by banning evocation unless he is cool with the idea of ground control.
Cantrips are usually not a balance problem so letting someone gets cantrips from all the schools is not going to be a huge trouble.

It's not that wizards are boring, it's more like they are a little too much bookkeeping for the age group I'm running. 14, 13, 11, and 6.

Jorgumander
2017-03-13, 07:29 PM
ok, here's what I've come up with so far.

Retain all Sorcerous Origin Features. At level 20 however, you add your CHA bonus to Sorcerous Restoration.

Sorcery Points: add CHA bonus. Also, expanded list to allow more spell slots to be added through 9th level spells. No longer maxed out at 5th.

Retain Metamagic. Stays same.

Draconic Bloodline: Gain permanent resistance to energy type aligned with. Not just for an hour at a time.

At Character Creation choose 4 Schools of Magic + Divination. These are the Schools you have access to for your career. (Not sure about this feature, but wanted to try and even out the fact that I wanted to add a few spells known to the list)

Spells Known: This will allow Sorcerers to have up to 2 spells known at each level, which really only seems fair. Totals 20 Spells Known from 5 Schools.

Level/Number Known
1-3
2-4
3-5
4-6
5-7
6-8
7-9
8-10
9-11
10-12
11-13
12-14
13-15
14-16
15-17
16-18
17-19
18-20
19-20
20-20

Cantrips Known: 6 total

This still leaves some levels as sort of "dead levels" with no obvious gains (like 19) but I think overall will fit our campaign much better.

Thoughts?

Jorgumander
2017-03-15, 11:23 AM
We game on Wednesday evenings and are leveling up right before playing. So it would be a great time to work this in as they are all 5th level heading into 6th. Wass hoping to get some feedback on these before we start. Does that final rework seem like it'll be alright? Thanks for everything! :)

noob
2017-03-15, 01:06 PM
The final rework seems functional.
Now the question is: will the sorcerer not overshadow all the other characters(play-test will allow to find out)
(if he is overshadowed by the others it is probably due to spell selection.)
I forgot if dnd 5 had a spell retraining on level up rule.(if there is not put that on all the spontaneous casters)

Jorgumander
2017-03-15, 01:08 PM
The final rework seems functional.
Now the question is: will the sorcerer not overshadow all the other characters(play-test will allow to find out)
(if he is overshadowed by the others it is probably due to spell selection.)
I forgot if dnd 5 had a spell retraining on level up rule.(if there is not put that on all the spontaneous casters)

Thank you!

Yes, 5E has probably the most liberal spell retraining on level up. EVERY level a sorcerer gets the option to retrain a spell known.

Will watch for the power level to make sure this doesn't happen.