Villains of Mechanical Cheese

[Wartex1]

I'm currently brewing up a campaign idea where the villains are all relatively crazy former adventurers who actively abuse rule cheese, but I'm low on ideas that aren't too ridiculous, too generalized, or too "circumstance based" like PunPun. Each character should have one extremely strong gimmick, but could be defeated otherwise.

So far, I have a d2 Crusader, a Fell Drain Locate City Bomber, Iron Heart Surge sun-destroyer, and a Bluff/Diplomacy abuser.

The whole premise of this campaign is that these characters are universe-hopping murderhobos in a setting where each universe has its own set of rules (represented by different systems, though only one universe will be used by players). These murderhobos came from a universe of complete and utter disarray (3.5) which they learned to abuse. Now they destroy universes for fun and loot with their abuse, and their next target is a familiar yet different universe (Pathfinder).

[Inevitability]

Would an all-seeing orbital warforged psion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20332993&postcount=46) and a mass amnesia-inducing devil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21126806&postcount=32) happen to be the kind of thing you're looking for?

[Telonius]

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, I'd suggest you go through some of the Villainous Competition threads. They've mostly been focused on practical optimization, not theoretical optimization; but there have definitely been builds that blur or cross the line.

Those aside, I'd put in a suggestion for Cancer Mage with Festering Anger (ridiculous strength score, but otherwise beatable), Changeling Warshaper (with ALL of the natural attacks), or Tainted Sorcerer (+eleventy bajillion spell DC).

[Bucky]

The tier thread recently produced a golem-rebuilding truenamer - restore a destroyed golem to full health as a standard action. And there's very likely some other truenamer-related RAW cheese to throw on top of that, given how poorly edited everything related to truenamers is.

You should include a metabreath abuser who self-stacks effects that increase the breath weapon's recharge time for a huge attack every 2,000,000d4 rounds (roughly once per year)

You should include a Cube (small mobile fortress from the Stronghold Builders' Guide rules whose walls allow one-way vision; offense varies) and at least one way to ignore damage (e.g. regeneration + energy immunity + nonlethal immunity).

You could have an Artificer who crafts candles of invocation to gate in overpowered minions.

As for stuff in the dysfunctional rules handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5)...

The Hardened Monk uses permanent object-protection spells on his whole body unarmed strikes because they count as manufactured weapons and who uses Feign Death to avoid being targetted while he beats people up.

A Warshaper can grow 100 different natural attacks and use them all in the same full attack (there's a list somewhere on the forum).

The Dance of the Spider stance(?) allows a character to negate the enemies' base attack bonus by standing on a wall.


Tower shield - Hide behind shield, now shield is hidden as well

[Wartex1]

That spy satellite one is really interesting. I'll probably use that one.

I don't know about the devil one though.

Part of it is that the villains should cooperate and work together, but there should still be tension between them all. The orbital psion makes a great "planner" for them all, though I would need to develop the Locate City Bomber in a different direction to avoid two characters being too similar. Maybe instead of a Bomber Wizard, I could make it a Sha'ir or even a Spellthief, or I could combine the Bomber with the Diplomancer as either a Bard or a Spellthief if I could figure out a way to do it (Spellthief is spontaneous and doesn't know Glibness, but does know Locate City and can use it with both Fell Drain and Flash Frost, since that only uses a 4th level slot without any metamagic reducers).

[Venger]

The tier thread recently produced a golem-rebuilding truenamer - restore a destroyed golem to full health as a standard action. And there's very likely some other truenamer-related RAW cheese to throw on top of that, given how poorly edited everything related to truenamers is.

You should include a metabreath abuser who self-stacks effects that increase the breath weapon's recharge time for a huge attack every 2,000,000d4 rounds (roughly once per year)

You should include a Cube (small mobile fortress from the Stronghold Builders' Guide rules whose walls allow one-way vision; offense varies) and at least one way to ignore damage (e.g. regeneration + energy immunity + nonlethal immunity).

You could have an Artificer who crafts candles of invocation to gate in overpowered minions.

As for stuff in the dysfunctional rules handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5)...

The Hardened Monk uses permanent object-protection spells on his whole body unarmed strikes because they count as manufactured weapons and who uses Feign Death to avoid being targetted while he beats people up.

A Warshaper can grow 100 different natural attacks and use them all in the same full attack (there's a list somewhere on the forum).

The Dance of the Spider stance(?) allows a character to negate the enemies' base attack bonus by standing on a wall.

Dance of the spider is indeed what it's called. I hadn't heard that one before, it's hilarious.

check out any of the dirty trick handbooks.

definitely include one character who is immune to hit point damage. (any way of gaining nonlethal immunity and regeneration works) that way your team would have a kind of unstoppable force (d2 crusader) and immovable object (immune to damage) guy on their team especially if your goal was for hidden resentments between the villains to be at play, those two are diametrically opposed. or if you want to be really awful, give both those powers to the same guy.

[remetagross]

You could go for a Druid that abuses Wild Shape with 12-headed Cryohydras or Dragon Wild Shape, and Shapechange stuff.
Or a Psion abusing Astral Seed + Fusion to have the body of a dozen combined creatures.
Or a Sorcerer with Sanctum Spell and Arcane Fusion: he can cast an infinite number of spells per turn.
Or the swarm of 5000 evil intelligent sparrows which are 80th level Sorcerers (see the Master of Many Forms round of Iron Chef Challenge).
Or a Hulking Hurler that can deal more damage than the number of particles in the (this?) universe.

Idea about the Arseplomancer Diplomancer: he manages to order his fanaticised Commoner followers to form a Peasant Railgun! :smallbiggrin:

You could also go with another form of abuse: a villain which has broken WBL by selling 10ft poles or something, and who as a result has an infinite amount of money at his disposal! Make it a 1st level Commoner, so that's even more insulting :smalltongue:

[Venger]

You could go for a Druid that abuses Wild Shape with 12-headed Cryohydras or Dragon Wild Shape, and Shapechange stuff.
Or a Psion abusing Astral Seed + Fusion to have the body of a dozen combined creatures.
Or a Sorcerer with Sanctum Spell and Arcane Fusion: he can cast an infinite number of spells per turn.
Or the swarm of 5000 evil intelligent sparrows which are 80th level Sorcerers (see the Master of Many Forms round of Iron Chef Challenge).
Or a Hulking Hurler that can deal more damage than the number of particles in the (this?) universe.

Idea about the Arseplomancer Diplomancer: he manages to order his fanaticised Commoner followers to form a Peasant Railgun! :smallbiggrin:

You could also go with another form of abuse: a villain which has broken WBL by selling 10ft poles or something, and who as a result has an infinite amount of money at his disposal! Make it a 1st level Commoner, so that's even more insulting :smalltongue:

These are all great ideas. There are ballads sung across the countryside about the hurler's dreaded osmium yo-yo.

The commoner who made all the money by splitting ladders into 10 foot poles does all of his schemes through agents since he still needs to spend most of his time tending to his dirt farm, or he will be slain.

[daremetoidareyo]

These are all great ideas. There are ballads sung across the countryside about the hurler's dreaded osmium yo-yo.

Perhaps the lightning thief: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142080-3-5-The-Lightning-Thief-Epic-Sleight-of-Hand-Abuse could get that yoyo off him

[MisterKaws]

These are the ones I remember right now:

Arseplomancer: Abuse of size-change abilities and Escape Artist to enter people's butts, then go giant and explode them, while making everyone around applaud madly, because Exemplar.

Jumplomancer: Same thing, but they increase their Jump modifier to such an amount that it takes them 10 rounds of double-move actions to finish their jump, qualifying for Exemplars Skill-o-mancy.

Gazebo Jones: Stealthy shapeshifter who murders people while disguised as furniture.

Mr Muschi: Cat Assassin who kills people by abusing cats' natural power of CUTENESS to brainwash people into petting his fluffy poison-coated fur.

Carnage Kabuto: This one is a build stub of my own creation, made just in case OOC doesn't solve a power trip. The gist of it is: a Were-Devastation Beetle(Etomanothrope) Incarnate Flesh Colossus is a CR 20 encounter. Seemed oddly similar to its namesake villain, so I felt the name was fitting enough.

[SirNibbles]

The villain who buys ladders and sells 10 foot poles, crashes the pole economy and forces pole manufacturers out of business, then starts his own monopoly on the pole industry, carefully controlling the supply. This leads to a rise in the price of poles and ladders and the average commoner is unable to afford them. Aristocrats begin hoarding poles and ladders as the price swells. Commoners revolt against the elite classes who would deny them poles. The villain's work is complete.

__


The Hardened Monk uses permanent object-protection spells on his whole body unarmed strikes because they count as manufactured weapons and who uses Feign Death to avoid being targetted while he beats people up.

The Monk whose body is a weapon that fights on its own:
By beating a DC 38 Concentration Check every round (as a free action, thanks to Extraordinary Concentration), the Monk can maintain Animate Weapon (Complete Mage, page 95) as a Swift Action. This allows the monk's body to move and attack as a swift action. The monk itself can then take a full round action of its own.

The feat Steady Concentration (Races of Stone) allows you to take 10 on Concentration all the time. All that's left is getting that +28 Concentration Bonus. Level 20 gives us 23. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting gives us 28.

[CharonsHelper]

1. Assuming you're playing 3.5 - you can make a character with the Spiked Chain AOOs / Spring Attack nuttiness. (just don't accidently have him walk off a cliff >.< - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html)

2. If you're playing Pathfinder - go with an Unchained Rogue with a Ring of Blinking and all of the Moonlight Stalker feats, Greater Feint, and Greater Blind-Fight. Swift action Feint every round which lasts the turn & 60% miss chance for defense. (they do have a tiny miss chance themselves)

3. If Pathfinder - have a pair of 'adventurers'. One of which is a barbarian with a scythe - the other goes TWF with kukris & has Improved Critical, Critical Focus, & Butterfly Sting - giving his crits to the Barbarian.

[daremetoidareyo]

The villain who buys ladders and sells 10 foot poles, crashes the pole economy and forces pole manufacturers out of business, then starts his own monopoly on the pole industry, carefully controlling the supply. This leads to a rise in the price of poles and ladders and the average commoner is unable to afford them. Aristocrats begin hoarding poles and ladders as the price swells. Commoners revolt against the elite classes who would deny them poles. The villain's work is complete.

__



The Monk whose body is a weapon that fights on its own:
By beating a DC 38 Concentration Check every round (as a free action, thanks to Extraordinary Concentration), the Monk can maintain Animate Weapon (Complete Mage, page 95) as a Swift Action. This allows the monk's body to move and attack as a swift action. The monk itself can then take a full round action of its own.

The feat Steady Concentration (Races of Stone) allows you to take 10 on Concentration all the time. All that's left is getting that +28 Concentration Bonus. Level 20 gives us 23. Tunic of Steady Spellcasting gives us 28.

Add familiar concentration to get another attack.

[Venger]

Add familiar concentration to get another attack.

throw solicit psicrystal in there too. combine with a psywar splash and tashalatora. nab control body and get more actions and reduce SADness.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm currently brewing up a campaign idea where the villains are all relatively crazy former adventurers who actively abuse rule cheese, but I'm low on ideas that aren't too ridiculous, too generalized, or too "circumstance based" like PunPun. Each character should have one extremely strong gimmick, but could be defeated otherwise.

So far, I have a d2 Crusader, a Fell Drain Locate City Bomber, Iron Heart Surge sun-destroyer, and a Bluff/Diplomacy abuser.

The whole premise of this campaign is that these characters are universe-hopping murderhobos in a setting where each universe has its own set of rules (represented by different systems, though only one universe will be used by players). These murderhobos came from a universe of complete and utter disarray (3.5) which they learned to abuse. Now they destroy universes for fun and loot with their abuse, and their next target is a familiar yet different universe (Pathfinder).

It might be a bit too much, but Vermin Lord requires you to be evil, is inherently icky (and thus super evil), and gets enough casting to be dangerous without being OP...outside of the hivemind rules. :smalltongue: Early on, before you reach the capstone, use the Dark Speech (available as early as 3rd lvl with the right build, or 2nd lvl with fractional saves) to make swarms into hiveminds, giving them tons of skills and feats, as well as some spellcasting. If you use it on a standard spider swarm, the swarm will have Int 37, Cha 29, 26 bonus feats, 52 bonus skill points, and will cast as a Sorcerer 12. The only thing keeping that fight vaguely reasonable for a party of PCs that have yet to reach double digit levels is that the swarm will still only have 9 HP (although they're immune to weapon damage). Still, a good AoE can take them out (even something like Burning Hands), so you'll have to be at least decent at caster-op to keep the swarm from dying too easily...but it could make for an interesting encounter for a lvl 8 group if done right.

If you want your players to have a hell of a time at high-non-epic/low-epic levels though, have the Vermin Lord in training use Dark Speech on a bat swarm instead; that sucker will be rocking Int 107, Cha 101, 145 bonus feats, 145 bonus skill points, and will cast as a Sorcerer 84. Of course, it only has 13 HP, so taking it out should be super-easy. The glass cannon is strong with this one. :smalltongue:

Oh, your players are getting into high-epic, and think they can handle this kind of nonsense? Have that 2nd lvl caster use Dark Speech on a wasp swarm (not hellwasp, actual wasp from Fiend Folio IIRC): that's gonna have Int 207, Cha 199, 392 bonus feats, 392 bonus skill points, and will be casting as a Sorcerer 182. Their one saving grace will be that it can't take epic feats.

Now I hear you: you're asking "what if I want my total BS swarm to be able to take epic feats?" and "what if I want my super-swarm to be less glass cannon-y?" and maybe even "but what if I want it to actually be a vaguely balanced encounter?" Good news! While in its original appearance in the Epic Level Handbook listed the Ruin Swarm as an Ooze (because the Swarm subtype didn't exist at the time), the SRD updated it into being a Tiny flying swarm! It'll have Int 27, Cha 49, 400 bonus feats, 400 bonus skill points, and will cast as a Sorcerer 32 (and will have 725 HP to boot). Of course, the base swarm is already CR 23, so casting as a Sorcerer 32 with a large pile of bonus feats and hit points shouldn't be too much of a problem for a low-epic party (provided they're optimized vaguely as well as the swarm's feats/spell choices).

[Menzath]

I think the tower shield trick would work wonderfully on a dvati with dark stalker. To make it funnier they dual wield shields and shield bash sneak attack with them.

There is also the trap crafting artificer to make a production line that makes golems, that can then construct more golems.

Anything to do with body outside body.

I second the astral seed cheese. Especially if you are an erudite.

[Bohandas]

Excessive multiclassing to stack lots of 1st level +2 save bonuses

[jmax]

Borrowing slightly from an idea a friend of mine told me about from a campaign he played in last year, try a player who abused shapechange shifting so often he forgot how not to. Every round, the villain involuntarily shifts into a random creature, possibly from the list of things he favored. Make a d% table for the list of creatures with some reasonable percentage chance that he actually gets to choose. Sprinkle in a few non-combat utility forms (i.e. mouse) for entertainment value.

As long as most of the forms on the table are decent, this should theoretically result in a very erratic but potentially quite challenging encounter.

If the character doesn't have Natural Spell, most spellcasting is off the table most of the time - but whenever something with hands and a voice comes up, you could definitely unleash the fury.

EDIT: If you need ideas for shapechange forms and abilities, check the link in my signature. Can you tell I have shapechange on the brain? :P

[Afgncaap5]

Ah, I see you already have a d2 Crusader. I was going to suggest that one because I have a version that I've used in-continuity as part of a Wuxia story in my main campaign world. The angry Crusader only wanted power and thought it was rightfully his, but he never sought out the philosophy that made the Ultimate Attack functional (ie., he never took the level of Cleric) so when he finally gained the talisman that could confer the power, he still didn't have the training to use it.

...so I guess I didn't have a d2 Crusader so much as I had a wannabe d2 Crusader villain, and a sensei who refused to be a d2 Crusader because it was too powerful and/or unnecessary.

[IcarusWulfe]

The villain who buys ladders and sells 10 foot poles, crashes the pole economy and forces pole manufacturers out of business, then starts his own monopoly on the pole industry, carefully controlling the supply. This leads to a rise in the price of poles and ladders and the average commoner is unable to afford them. Aristocrats begin hoarding poles and ladders as the price swells. Commoners revolt against the elite classes who would deny them poles. The villain's work is complete.

One could almost say, it was an uprising of the poleariat

[Inevitability]

I think the tower shield trick would work wonderfully on a dvati with dark stalker. To make it funnier they dual wield shields and shield bash sneak attack with them.

If you want to dual wield shields, make one of them out of riverine. That way you get the full shield bonus, then half the shield bonus as a deflection bonus on top of that.

Also, hiding behind a (translucent) riverine shield would make the entire trick even weirder.


One could almost say, it was an uprising of the poleariat

Aaaaand I'd like to sig this.

[IcarusWulfe]

If you want to dual wield shields, make one of them out of riverine. That way you get the full shield bonus, then half the shield bonus as a deflection bonus on top of that.

Also, hiding behind a (translucent) riverine shield would make the entire trick even weirder.



Aaaaand I'd like to sig this.

Aw shucks, my first sig request, of course you can:smallsmile:

[SirNibbles]

One could almost say, it was an uprising of the poletariat

fixed that for you

[Wartex1]

Okay, so I have 5 out of 6 character ideas pinned down, since I decided I wanted to focus on one ability score for each of the characters; so far, I'm only missing Wisdom.

STR - d2 Crusader
DEX - Iron Heart Surge Warblade
CON - Changeling Warshaper
WIS - ???
INT - Satellite Psion
CHA - Locate City Wightpocalypse + Glibness Face Spellthief/Bard w/ Master Spellthief (though this might just become a PrC'd Spellthief with wands/potions of Glibness, or the Spellthief steals copies of Glibness from a poor Bard they have chained up somewhere)

[Bucky]

Wis - Hardened self-animated monk in a cube?

[Wartex1]

Actually, for Wisdom, I might just make that character the "enabler" that benefits everyone else.

The cleric would provide the Crusader with the Imbued Healing Luck domain boost, command the Wights created by the Spellthief's Wightpocalypse, etc. Though if I could find a better cheese from a PrC that I could attach to it and still keep what's there, that would be better.

EDIT: Maybe lots of cheese with adding Turning/Rebuking attempts combined with Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic.

[Bucky]

Cubes are classless cheese; they only require WBL.

[Wartex1]

Cubes are classless cheese; they only require WBL.

What exactly do you mean by Cube?

Do you mean a literal cube with a slot or something in the side so you can see and move with magic but it grants total concealment and full cover in every direction?

EDIT: Do you mean a Gelatinous Cube? So that the Monk could never be damaged by the gelatinous cube because of the cheese which makes them indestructible.

EDIT 2: This could pretty easily be done with a Cleric with acid energy resistance, freedom of movement, and any effect which removes the need to breathe, and combined with Turn attempt boosting and DMM, the Cleric could stay engulfed in all sorts of Oozes. Now to find the best Ooze for the job.

[Bucky]

The traditional (sofawall) cube relied on the Landlord feat for a small mobile building that flew around ramming people.




Prismatic Wall
Wall of Force
Magically Hardened Obdurium
Lead
Dirt
Me

...And there may have been a wall of dispelling effect outside the Prismatic Wall.

Other variants used Control Winds or externally mounted wand turrets for offense instead of or in addition to Prismatic Wall contact. There was also some way for the rider to see through the walls of the cube.

Ramming people with flying oozes is funnier, though much less robust.

[Calthropstu]

:smallbiggrin: Yeah, I'd suggest you go through some of the Villainous Competition threads. They've mostly been focused on practical optimization, not theoretical optimization; but there have definitely been builds that blur or cross the line.

Those aside, I'd put in a suggestion for Cancer Mage with Festering Anger (ridiculous strength score, but otherwise beatable), Changeling Warshaper (with ALL of the natural attacks), or Tainted Sorcerer (+eleventy bajillion spell DC).

Actually, a series of published campaigns built around the competition winners as a bbeg would be kinda awesome.

[Wartex1]

Could someone walk me through how one builds said mobile fortress?

Building the others shouldn't be too hard (Full Warblade and Crusader, Barb/Fighter/Warshaper multiclass, follow the satellite build, and a standard Spellthief w/ PrC build), but I know basically nothing about the Cube.

How large can the Cube be?

[Bucky]

It's almost entirely material from the Stronghold Builders' Guide. I don't own a copy of it, so I can't describe the mechanics.


As far as "how large?" I think there's a minimum of a 15 foot cube and a maximum of "however much wall you can afford to pay for."

[Thurbane]

Illumian Duskblade/Cancer Mage; abusing festering anger for NI Strength, using Illumian to base bonus spells of Strength, and then throw in some Arcane Strike goodness.

[ATHATH]

For WIS... Maybe the Twice-Betrayer of Shar or a DMM: Persist build?

If you choose the latter, don't forget to dip into Doomspeaker.

[Wartex1]

One of the ideas was Clerical abuse of Persist spells, but it didn't feel cheesy enough.

Also, I can't find anything on Doomspeaker. The closest I found was the Doomspeak feat, which is a feat that spends Bardic Music uses for a debuff effect.

[Wartex1]

I think I found a way to do what I wanted with the Ooze idea.

The Cleric is a Luck/Trickery domain Cleric with a pet Bone Ooze. Normally, the Bone Ooze is not transparent, so while engulfed in it, the Cleric could not see outward. However, the Spellthief can learn Greater Invisibility, which, as per text, functions as Invisibility with the exception of not ending if the target attacks, and since Invisibility can be permanencied on objects, so can Greater Invisibility, since it is as Invisibility (this is the Cheese, since it relies on specific wording). However, the target needs to be an object, but the Trickery Domain grants Polymorph Into Any Object.

So, the Cleric Polymorphs his pet Bone Ooze into an object, and the Spellthief casts Greater Invisibility and a stolen Permanency spell on the object before it transforms back. Now that the Ooze is invisible, the Cleric needs to learn how to survive inside of it.

To do this, the Cleric casts Persistent Freedom of Movement and Persistent Sheltered Vitality to protect from being trapped and the ability drain, but I need to figure out a way to prevent the slam and bleed damage from the Ooze as well as its bonesucking ability (DC 35 Fort save or die, though the Cleric could be a nonskeletal creature like a Warforged or Thri-Kreen). The bleed effect is removed by Heal checks or healing spells, but not fast healing, so Persistent Vigor is out the window. High enough DR can prevent the slam damage, but I can't think of any spells beside the Wu Jen exclusive Transcend Mortality that grant DR of 30.

EDIT: I haven't found any healing spells that work for this since either they cannot be Persisted (Healing Spirit) or do not affect the caster (Positive Energy Aura). If there's a way to transfer healing from one character to yourself, that could solve the issue. Alternatively, an effect which deals constant negative energy damage to yourself can heal the caster if the caster has Tomb Tainted Soul

Though Persistent Delay Death with an effect that keeps the caster able to act as if they weren't dying would also work and solve both the bleeding issue and the slam damage.

[Thurbane]

Now that the Ooze is invisible, the Cleric needs to learn how to survive inside of it.

Amulet of Ooze Riding (A&EG, p.85). 28,000gp.

[Wartex1]

Oh, wow.

That significantly reduces the complexity of the build. That's really helpful, actually. Thank you for that.

[Wartex1]

So, final villain party:

STR - d2 Crusader
DEX - Iron Heart Surge Sun-blotter
CON - Changeling Barb/Fighter/Warshaper
WIS - Turning Attempt Maximizing Persistent DMM Luck/Trickery Cleric with an Amulet of Ooze Riding and an invisible Bone Ooze pet
INT - Satellite Psion
CHA - Wightpocalypse Spellthief of undetermined PrC

[Wartex1]

Crap, I just remembered the Oozes are immune to Polymorph, so my Polymorph Into Any Object strategy doesn't work.

EDIT: I could just get by with a magic item, but then it loses its cheesiness factor.

[Menzath]

Well it's not utlra cheese, but still works for Wis.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-(Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper)

Had a good laugh when I read that.
I made a similar version that used earth glide to do the same from under ground.

[Inevitability]

Illumian Duskblade/Cancer Mage; abusing festering anger for NI Strength, using Illumian to base bonus spells of Strength, and then throw in some Arcane Strike goodness.

When you've got limitless to-hit and damage, I don't think Arcane Strike adds all that much.

[Wartex1]

I think I can get around my problem by using Extra Spell to gain Greater Invisibility (why the Trickery domain has regular Invisibility but not Greater Invisibility is beyond me) since for prepared casters, it says

For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
Then its just a matter of Persistent DMM.

Though that does free up another domain, so I can choose Travel for Fly, which I can also Persistent DMM.

Now to figure out the best PrC combinations to maintain spellcasting as well as boost turning attempts (so if I lose access to infinite nightsticks, I can still maintain the ridiculous DMM stuff).

[tyckspoon]

I think I can get around my problem by using Extra Spell to gain Greater Invisibility (why the Trickery domain has regular Invisibility but not Greater Invisibility is beyond me) since for prepared casters, it says


You just need the ooze to have been an object at some point, right? That's easy. Find one, kill it, Invisible it, and raise it. Corpses aren't creatures any more. You can also create a statue of one, Invisible the statue, then do a Stone to Flesh and Raise it .. although the Ooze might be big enough to make that kind of tricky with the spell's size limits. Or Poly Any Object almost any random piece of crap into the appropriate corpse and Raise that. It's not hard to acquire any arbitrary corpse in D&D. Higher-level and potentially a bit expensive, but not hard. You might be better off finding a way to do it with an item or a personal spell anyway, tho, since a Permanent Spell is vulnerable to dispelling and you'd have to redo the shenanigans to get the invisibility back if it got blown away.

Consider acquiring a casting of Ice Assassin and creating a Bone Ooze Ice Assassin to be your ride (it's a Wiz/Sorc 9 spell, so this might take some fiddling with UMD.) This gives you two benefits - one, the Ice Assassin is explicitly under your full control (how that interacts with it being Mindless is.. well, up to you to decide, I guess.) Two, you can share spells with it. Including Personal ones. Which means you can share all those lovely Persistent buffs with your ooze armor/ride/buddy..

Oh, and if you're going with the Extra Spell interpretation that lets you pick things from off list, take a look at Superior Invisibility in the Spell Compendium instead of Greater Invis.

[ATHATH]

Sorry, I meant Doomdreamer. A dip into it can double your number of Turn Attempts.

[Wartex1]

I hadn't considered Ice Assassin cheese.

Now I can't use it with Extra Spell since it's the max level spell without the wonky Epic rules, but with a scroll and other cheese it can be done.

So, this means that we have an Invisible Cleric inside an Invisible Bone Ooze Ice Assassin, both of which are flying, with the Cleric commanding an army of Wights from the Spellthief, using the Bone Ooze to consume any excess Wights.

Said Cleric is also stacking nightsticks, which they probably have strapped on in a bandolier fashion.

Coupled with some Necromantic PrCs (Bone Knight, maybe), the Cleric could bolster the size of his army to immense proportions.

[Darrin]

What exactly do you mean by Cube?

Do you mean a literal cube with a slot or something in the side so you can see and move with magic but it grants total concealment and full cover in every direction?


The Cube by sofawall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147304-The-Cube) is a 13th level commoner build from the Test of Spite. It's a demonstration of how GPs can trump nearly any other build. We don't have the exact specifics of the Cube, but sofawall used the Landlord feat and the Stronhold Builders Guide to build a 5' x 5' flying room surrounded on all sides by prismatic walls and several dozen spellclocks spamming disjunctions. Essentially just ram your flying killcube into your opponents until dead. The Cube was undefeated.

[Wartex1]

I might make that into a 7th Jack of All Stats member then, plus the Chicken-Infested feat.

As for the Cleric, I think I've nailed it down to Cleric 9/Doomdreamer 1/Bone Knight 10, which gives it an effective turning level of 38 as well as another 80 HD worth of controllable undead from the Bone Knight. Give it Nightsticks and the Ooze, and it should be set.

Though, in order to fully realize this build, we need to be able to have someone cast Ice Assassin. To do this, we just need a scroll and an arcane caster with Ice Assassin on their spell list. This could easily be accomplished by the Spellthief multiclassing into Sorcerer, which would also make it much stronger with PrCs, though I think I'll just go Sorc 1 as to preserve some of the flavor (no one expects a Spellthief to be a gamebreaker).

[Bucky]

You're down for some cheese, right? Just use Planar Ally (once) to access Wishes in exchange for a favor to an Outsider. Wish is technically missing a limit for how expensive a magic item it can create, so use it for a custom magic item of 5/day Ice Assassin(bone ooze).

[MisterKaws]

I guess I'm kind of four days late, but you can Awaken your ooze and ask it to lower its immunity to Polymorph.

[Wartex1]

I thought Awaken could only work on animals and magic beasts.

[Tiri]

I thought Awaken could only work on animals and magic beasts.

I believe the Awaken Ooze spell can be found in Dragon Magazine #304.

[Wartex1]

Oh.

Okay. That eliminates the need for the Ice Assassin cheese.

[Wartex1]

So now the Spellthief awakens the ooze with a stolen spell, awakens a Bone Ooze, and the Cleric feeds it the extra undead created by the Wightpocalypse to gain comraderie with it.