Utilizing The DMPC

[Astofel]

We all know about DMPCs and the horrible, horrible reputations they have regarding DMs who heavily favour their own PCs, have the entire plot revolve around them, have them be super great, handsome, and infallible, etc etc. Is there a place for the DMPC, or is it always doomed to be a terrible idea? If you were to include a DMPC in a game you're running, how would you go about it?

Personally, I'd use a DMPC if I were running a group of new players through their first adventure, especially if they only had a small party and/or lacked support classes. I'd throw in a basic bard or cleric dedicated to buffing and healing the party and generally not getting too involved in combat so the players still feel like they're the stars of the show. I'd be more likely to go bard, because I could say that the bard is simply there to chronicle the players' adventures so they'd be less likely to look to him for 'Word of DM' advice, although maybe he could throw in a few suggestions to egg the party on if they're at a loss for where to go.

I'm curious to hear the playground's DMPC experiences, whether great or awful. Has anyone ever seen a non-support class DMPC work well?

[DanyBallon]

I'm using a DMPC when the group is small (3 or less) and I tend to build my DMPC less than optimized. I often use lower starting ability score than standard array. I see DMPC as supportive character, a notch above an henchmen, a notch below active PC.

[INDYSTAR188]

In general I try to avoid any NPC adventuring with the party long enough to be considered a DMPC. Having said that, my preferred method is to RP the character and (assuming they want to) have the PC'S control it in battle. If not then I play them in as much a support role as possible.

[ProphetSword]

I ran a DMPC about ten years ago during a 4E game. I played a cleric, since the party didn't have one.

Due to the reputation of DMPCs, the DMPC in this case always followed the party and did whatever they were doing, never spoke to NPCs, and let the players do all the fun stuff. She was there to just heal and help in combat.

Players didn't mind that.

[Typhon]

I think that what has been listed so far is the way that good DMs use DMPCs. They are support and not core to the story.

[DanyBallon]

I think that what has been listed so far is the way that good DMs use DMPCs. They are support and not core to the story.

I think that every game that focus on a single character, whether a PC or DMPC, is bound to be dissatisfying to others at the table...

[Drackolus]

Running Curse of Strahd gives you a ton of them. My way of dealing with them is have no rolls so their turns are quick - they do a bit of adjusted damage (2 or so, to make up for their misses, or I just have them alternate hits and misses and do 5 or so damage. Depends on the character.), and whenever an enemy attacks them I do it the same way. Even with 2 npcs, their turns are a matter of seconds.
They also tend to only speak to give a "voice" to the world, especially when alone. Sometimes they'll offer suggestions, but those suggestions are based on the character's cleverness and understanding - not me just trying to give hints to the players.
Also gives a WONDERFUL way to remind players of story elements without breaking character. Arguably a minor point, but hey, it is one.

[solidork]

Devil's Advocate: The best actual play I have ever encountered was a Werewolf: the Forsaken game that had a party that consisted of 2 PCs and ~3 NPCs. The most mechanically powerful character was an NPC. The character that was ostensibly in charge of most of the party was an NPC.(one of the PCs was an outsider allied with the pack. They butted heads. A LOT) It ran for five years. I cried when one of the NPCs died, and had a nightmare about the main antagonist. It was done in chat form, which means that the NPCs could talk to each other without it being weird. You got a glimpse into the PCs heads, so character development and exploration was a focus in a way that is nigh impossible to do face to face if you aren't a skilled actor.

It worked for these guys, but I'm pretty sure it was some kind of role playing miracle. The very essence of Don't Try This At Home.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?446663-Werewolf-The-Forsaken-quot-Detroit-Rock-City-quot

[Marcloure]

I play a 4E game with two friends, and as their small group size let them lacking in many things, I put a DMPC to help them in combat. But as I don't want to give them so accessible DM hints and, most of all, as I don't wan't to have the spotlight and roleplay a NPC-NPC interaction, I made her voiceless. She has the scar of a cut in her neck, and this feature has also been useful as plothook and created a misterious and cute character that just follows the players because she seems lost and can't get help from anyone else.

[Sigreid]

My group switches off DMs so the DMPC is just that, the DM's PC. The important thing is just to confine your character's knowledge to what he/she actually would or could know and let the rest of the party take the lead. For example, I'll shift my character's attitude into "I'm helping my friends, but I'm not really that interested in what we are doing right now". This means he fights as effectively as he can. He complies with the decisions of of the party without argument or complaint. He doesn't ask for magic items and generally defers them to one of the other characters unless the group insists or has no interest in it. And he only uses his skills, particularly knowledge skills, when he's asked to. In short, he's that friend that joins the group activities, but you know he's just not that into it.

[tkuremento]

I'm alright with DMPCs so long as they are temporary and don't outshine other players at the thing they are good at. This means they could still be amazing but at something the party didn't specialize in or they might be a little bit of a jack of all trades.

I'd be alright with them being permanent but maybe perhaps they level slower? That way the party is level 6 but the DMPC is like 4? If possible they should also have a bit of a story tie in without being party face whatsoever. I've never been a DM so I'm not sure how I'd implement it myself, but I know there is probably a way.

[Citan]

We all know about DMPCs and the horrible, horrible reputations they have regarding DMs who heavily favour their own PCs, have the entire plot revolve around them, have them be super great, handsome, and infallible, etc etc. Is there a place for the DMPC, or is it always doomed to be a terrible idea? If you were to include a DMPC in a game you're running, how would you go about it?

Personally, I'd use a DMPC if I were running a group of new players through their first adventure, especially if they only had a small party and/or lacked support classes. I'd throw in a basic bard or cleric dedicated to buffing and healing the party and generally not getting too involved in combat so the players still feel like they're the stars of the show. I'd be more likely to go bard, because I could say that the bard is simply there to chronicle the players' adventures so they'd be less likely to look to him for 'Word of DM' advice, although maybe he could throw in a few suggestions to egg the party on if they're at a loss for where to go.

I'm curious to hear the playground's DMPC experiences, whether great or awful. Has anyone ever seen a non-support class DMPC work well?

Short answer: if you are a good DM in general, you will be able to use DMPC in a good way. If you are a bad DM, this will just be another way to ruin the fun for your players.

Otherwise said, as long as you keep in mind, even with your DMPC, making your players have fun as a priority, it will be fine.

I prepared a DMPC exactly as you said (bard, support role), did not even yet enter into the (extra small) group because we just play too rarely to really advance the campaign. XD I prepared him because currently the group only has 1 Rogue and one Monk, so they have no spellcasting at all.

But even a supposedly high-CHA character is not necessarily taking the highlights. You may give him a voice problem (= he can only be charismatic when singing, not really the best way to lead diplomatic negociations), a behaviour problem (the kind of guy that can be extremely charismatic, but only "on command", or just an asocial that just follows the group for his self-interest but doesn't care about well-being of said group)... In fight, using Healing Words is efficient but subtle, Blinding an enemy is very helpful but it is the Rogue who would have the satisfaction of the victory in the end...

Basically, the main "risks" I see with DMPC are....
1. Taking too much influence in a group (in campaign interactions): this can be avoided through aforementioned means. If necessary, just make him "follow orders" and be done with it (although you are damn close to a plain NPC here, losing some of its charm).

2. Being directly in competition on a specific role/skill with a player: as long as you "craft" your character carefully, it should be good (don't take any skill/spell other characters use regularly, don't use the same fighting style as other players etc).

3. Taking the spotlight in encounters: if you make a "warrior" like DMPC, risk is minimal. You cannot control the dice, but you can act yourself in a manner that makes you useful without hogging the glory. Even better if your DMPC is just straight following player orders and you just manage the resulting mechanics. With a spellcaster, you tread on finer lines, because spellcasters do have spells that can be tide-turners. As long as you keep in mind the goal "how can I help others create a big win" instead of "how can I end this", should be fine though.
With that said, it's sometimes unavoidable: when for example you put a Fiend Warlock in a no-magic party to help dealing with crowds, you ARE supposed to have some glory when you unleash a well-placed Fireball. But players won't hate you for that, on the contrary. ^^

4. Being taken advantage of by the players: for a "good" DM, this is imo the complexiest thing to do: roleplay a "true" character and helping players while avoiding that they tr, y to pick up unintented information by harassing player with questions or just "putting him in charge", because they hope/expect that he (meaning you) will choose the best course of action for them.
Best way to restrict this danger is by putting a strict background to your DMPC, so the players just view him/her as a "helper+++" instead as "the one the DM controls".

As to when use a DMPC?
Imo, the only reason to use a DMPC is when you fulfill the following conditions:
- Party is severely lacking in one or several specific areas (social skills, adventuring spells, AOE spells, etc).
- They are actively looking for some help in that regard, or you just know (metagame) they will hit a brick wall (because they are too inexperienced to find another solution for the oncoming problem, or they just don't have the required skill/spell, and you cannot -or don't want- to overhaul the next segment of your campaign just to circumvent this).
- A "brainless" NPC is not enough to do the trick (diplomat, mountain guide, mercenary, fence seller, etc).

So, imo, there is usually no reason to use one in groups larger than 4 people because larger parties usually cover all grounds. Unless it's a "thematic" party such as "Band of Brothers" (full Champions and Battlemasters > lack of spells) or "Raging Horde" (full Barbarians > no spells, limited skills) for example.

Two examples:
One friend of mine, as a DM, put a Barbarian-like DMPC (speaking of 4E here) dwarf to help our 2-man party (Rogue + Wizard): no direct role conflict, and he avoided any chance of influencing our decision making by putting a 3 in Intelligence (so the dwarf had so limited cognition and memory he barely remembered his own name, and couldn't speak). Later, he also put a Druid to help us for some time: the Druid was not "controllable", and while helping us in fights, was never providing any helpful hint about the campaign: which was logical, because his backstory never even "gave him a chance" to know anything about it.

Sometimes, DMPC may also be useful if players asks for them, because they want to "switch" characters sometimes to try something else and it's just difficult to make the characters come and go in the story. But it's a niche case here. ^^

[Cybren]

I think that what has been listed so far is the way that good DMs use DMPCs. They are support and not core to the story.

I'd contend that the "good" use of a DMPC is called an NPC.

[Fredaintdead]

I had one in a 4e run of Keep on the Shadowfell a few years back that seemed to go alright.

Context: 3 person group, only one of whom had any experience with D&D (let alone 4th Edition specifically). The group lacked a Defender (Striker/Striker/Leader that eventually became Striker/Controller/Leader when the Ranger's player left and we got someone playing an Invoker instead), so in comes Sir Fluffy.
The DMPC: Sir Fluffy was a Shifter Fighter who was described to the group as "A German Shepherd in armour", and communicated primarily by barking.
How it went down: Sir Fluffy did his job of filling the gap fairly well. He didn't get in the way of any roleplay because he barely spoke. He only did anything specific when asked (he was a good boy). And since the players were all lovers of dogs they generally really liked Fluffy. As things got ridiculous towards the end (I'd taken another look at the module and gone "Well if it's that easy then we might as well have some fun with it" and started giving out personalised custom artifacts and passive powers), Fluffy gained the ability to multiply his Strength score for non-combat stuff by the number of people calling him a "Good Boy" +1. The group were even really sad when it appeared like he'd sacrificed himself to save everyone from the exploding keep. They were also really relieved when a tiny German Shepherd puppy carrying a sword in its mouth trotted out of the rubble.

Sir Fluffy lives on to this day as a PC I'm playing in a 5th Ed game. He's a giant Pomeranian now, with a newly acquired level in Paladin.

[Spellbreaker26]

DMPCs should be, in my opinion:

Not stronger than the rest of the party, especially in terms of DPS. Ideally they should never fight at all, only heal and cast buffs. When DMPCs killsteal then it ruins the game, at least in my opinion.

Not the kind of person who interferes with the story. They should be a minor priest or something that helps out the party occasionally, not a major NPC.

[Gryndle]

Way back in the day we all took turns DMing with the same group of characters and just kept on going. there were two rules we set in place

1-dont DM a story where your DMpc is central to the plot. a.k.a. don't hog the limelight

2-when DMing, your character is there to support the other PCs, you don't lead, outshine, push or belittle.

using those rules, and some basic common sense, we have never had a problem with DMpcs. Only one player has ever complained. and he was complaining before he ever actually joined our group. He also didn't survive the group vote, though for other reasons. (when a new player joins our gaming group, after a few sessions to get to know them, our group takes a vote to see if they are invited to stay or not. this guy was unanimously voted out).

[Citan]

Hi all!

Bouncing back on the thread to present my "DMPC", for a 3-people group (Rogue, Ranger, Monk) nearing lvl 3, having no healing whatsoever, a lax sense of teamwork, and a strong tendency to erratic behaviour / putting themselves in unnecessary danger.

Bard 1 (Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers) / Warlock 2 (Eldricht Blast, Booming Blade, Charm Person, Mask of Many Faces + Armor of Shadows Invocations). 16 in DEX and CHA, 13 WIS, 10- otherwise.
Just knows Produce Flame, Bless and "Life" Goodberries in addition to that.

Let's call him Greed for now (don't have any good name in mind currently)

----
Background
Basic background is a Wood Elf that initially underwent some Druidic training but was banished half-way because he was inclined to use his newly acquired knowledge for his own self-interest, often in disdain of others. In particular, he was harvesting and trying to get monopolistic appropriation of some components, in particular the one necessary for Goodberries, so he could sell them not only to outsiders, but also to his village's own warriors.

As he had insight on how lucrative such a commerce could be if he could increase his offer, he tried to become a Life Cleric. While he managed to give change for some time, his bad habits finally came through and he was expelled, yet again, without finishing the full training.
He did manage to understand how to increase the potency of his healing powers and, to keep favor of his deity (Lugh), promised to sing his praises every new day. So he began studying Bardic arts while spending every second of his off-time opening a commerce of "magical berries", trying even to get some reputation by distributing its to poor people. For some time, this went fairly well, as he had no time to grow his shop anyways. After finally becoming a full-fledged Bard, he began trying to convince officials to fund him to create a true system for sustaining country's army. But these officials did not want anything that would require heavy investment and far return, not accounting for risks of economy unbalance if something as nutrient became mass-produced. So they drove him off, even shutting away his shop.
Meanwhile, this idea made its way into the minds of less scrupulous people.

As Greed neared desperation, a criminal organization came to him to propose a deal: they would pay clean and heavy money for any and every of these strange berries, as long as Greed could follow the demand.
The latter agreed without a second thought, and so his commerce flourished again. For a time. Soon enough, the syndicate started to ask more and more of these berries, either for themselves or as an alternative, more subtle kind of money, becoming more agressive every passing day as Greed couldn't obviously produce enough berries.
Incapable to stand firm to the not-so-subtle threats, or maybe to his own, uncontrollably growing avarice, Greed started looking for a way to massively increase his production. Apprenticeship failed, as Greed did not have any quality as a teacher. Another problem was that any Druids or Cleric apprentice he asked turned him away, as they deemed this contrary to their beliefs and values.

Greed turned to darker arts. After weeks of blindly looking for any solution, he finally found a way to make a contract with an otherworld being, which granted him a new source of magic to multiply his daily production.I just don't know which kind of Patron is the most accurate, since I'm not familiar at all with the "contract fluff": Undying Light? Seems more or less correct thematic wise (after all, Greed IS sustaining life ^^) but don't see how/why a powerful force would take interest in what is a small deed in the end. Fiend? But then what would the Patron require from such a people in exchange for power?
For more than a year, this sudden boost in production allowed Greed to make huge profit, as he contented his syndicate partner with huge quantities of Life Goodberries.
Consequently, the syndicate gained a boon which made it grow even larger in turn, thus finally throwing back Greed to its starting point.

Now, Greed is seriously considering some ways to break his contract without losing his life: as growing a successor is out of question, he is trying to think of a plan to just disappear, or fake his death. Even better would be to destroy the syndicate itself, but how to do it? Lure another syndicate into a gang war? Frame or make kill his contact (the only one knowing his true face, since he usually wanders around under Disguise Self)? Disclose as much information as possible to officials, hoping they put down everybody and keep him aside as a reward?


--
Mechanics and behaviour
Greed will be the one providing Life Goodberries to the enemies the players already fought. He is not strictly part of the syndicate though, and is free to do as he pleases as long as he fulfills his contract.
He will not actively try and contact the players, but will be in the surroundings when they confront the syndicate.
In case they make contact and propose something that may serve his interest, he will join them, for a fee, to act as their food and healing supplier.
He may also spontaneously propose help if their current course of action seems really benefitting to him.

In fights (he case he joins the party), he would attack only as a way of retaliation or if it becomes strictly necessary for his survival, with daggers, otherwise staying in the back (or even hiding from enemies), occasionally using Healing Words, otherwise helping them by concentrating on Bless.
He doesn't want to use any cantrips (Eldricht Blast, Shocking Grasp) unless he is absolutely forced too, as he wants to keep his true abilities a secret, especially from a group of people that may or not engage in conflictual relationships later. So being seen as basically "a coward that just knows how to heal some" is fine by him.

Outside fights, he will live his life, having no care about party's quests, helping unwillingly when the case arise, being ready to jump off the boat if the risks of staying outweighs the gains.

--
What do you think? Is it not too circonvoluted? I just really want them to have someone that can buff and heal them, because they tend to just have true bad luck on the most crucial moments, and neared a TPK on a fight that was supposed to be "normal" (although, the reverse sometimes is true: one player single-handedly downed 3 people banging on him ^^).

Also, I was thinking this character may stay later as a single NPC, that can affect the world and the players alike depending on their own relationship with him...

This also gives them the choice of having a "true ally" (going with them in fights), or just a plain NPC with which they will make a deal (provide us Life Goodberries for the next few days, we will help with your "escape"), so I'm not "pushing it on them". Although I frankly have no idea as to how this character could really escape -so how they could help him-, unless fake death. Obviously, whatever happens, he would have to travel far away and change identity, since he's known widely by both criminals and officials alike...

---
Thanks for feedback. Also, seemed on topic enough to put this here since we were discussins DMPCs, but if preferred, I can open a dedicated thread.

[Honest Tiefling]

In most cases, the DMPC is added to the party for a reason other than 'The DM got bored'. A DMPC to fill in gaps in roles CAN work. A DMPC to fill in newer players and possibly die appropriately can work. A DMPC to accompany the group can actually work. I mean, is the party really so awful no one cares to help them on their dangerous yet necessary work?

None of those cases involves the DM doing so to have a PC. Preventing the death of a mentor, hiring a well-regarded guard lieutenant, or having a follower all lead to RP even if they are not in the spotlight. They can all have ways to advance the story by following, not by leading. They don't have to be mindless robots, but that's why you have a dang party face to begin with.

Basically, a good DMPC aids the story and the combat by not stealing the spotlight, but by redirecting it onto the players and helps them out. They should be a logical extension of the game world, and react to the player's actions and decisions.