PDA

View Full Version : DM Help Solved* (Don't know how to remove now)



1Forge
2017-03-11, 01:05 PM
Hey I run several games at a club I run in my town. Last session I let one of my players DM and I had a very poor time as a player. So I'd like to know what I can do to be a better player, and how I can help give constructive criticism of his game without offending him and splitting the group.

In short I just need some advice on how to be better as a player, and how I can help my friend as he learns to be a DM. Thank you in advance, I'd like to see some more experienced peoples responses.
(For context he DM'd a system he began developing himself based loosely off 5e, pathfinder, and a video game he owns.)

KillianHawkeye
2017-03-11, 01:43 PM
It's going to be hard for people to give you relevant advice unless you elaborate on what kinds of problems you had with the game or your friends DMing or whatever other reasons you didn't enjoy yourself.

On the issue of constructive criticism, especially in the case of a homemade game system, my advice is to avoid doing it during the game itself. If anything seems wrong or doesn't make sense to you, make a note about it for later and just go with it. Don't interrupt the game or cause a scene. Also, when you do bring it up, phrase it as something you didn't understand so as not to put your friend on the defensive about his game. Defensive people aren't open to comments that could possibly be perceived negatively.

Finally, if he's just learning to DM, you're going to have to be patient while he gets his groove. I'm sure you're aware that DMing involves a lot of different skills, and it can be easy to falter in some areas when you're not used to doing so many things at once. This goes double when you're essentially play-testing a new game system, because that's another extra thing to be thinking about beyond the norm.

1Forge
2017-03-11, 02:50 PM
It's going to be hard for people to give you relevant advice unless you elaborate on what kinds of problems you had with the game or your friends DMing or whatever other reasons you didn't enjoy yourself.

On the issue of constructive criticism, especially in the case of a homemade game system, my advice is to avoid doing it during the game itself. If anything seems wrong or doesn't make sense to you, make a note about it for later and just go with it. Don't interrupt the game or cause a scene. Also, when you do bring it up, phrase it as something you didn't understand so as not to put your friend on the defensive about his game. Defensive people aren't open to comments that could possibly be perceived negatively.

Finally, if he's just learning to DM, you're going to have to be patient while he gets his groove. I'm sure you're aware that DMing involves a lot of different skills, and it can be easy to falter in some areas when you're not used to doing so many things at once. This goes double when you're essentially play-testing a new game system, because that's another extra thing to be thinking about beyond the norm.

Thank you for the advice! As for specifics, I'll try and post some general information in the original post.

Darth Ultron
2017-03-11, 05:22 PM
Well, in general, the best thing you can do is sit back and play the game. You really don't want to back table DM.

You want to help him learn how to be a DM, that is good....if he wants the help.

If it's some custom game....you can't say anything about ''the rules'', right? It's not like the Wacky Worship type of D&D/Pathfinder where everyone follows the rules. It's his game and rules, so he can just say ''this is that'', right?

Everything he is doing is....insane....but what do you even hope to do. Even if he asked for advice, you'd be hard pressed not to sound like the ''whiny player complaining to the DM''.

Worse, somethings like ''understanding Railroading'' would take days to explain and understand....not just a ten minute conversation.

1Forge
2017-03-11, 06:00 PM
Well, in general, the best thing you can do is sit back and play the game. You really don't want to back table DM.

You want to help him learn how to be a DM, that is good....if he wants the help.

If it's some custom game....you can't say anything about ''the rules'', right? It's not like the Wacky Worship type of D&D/Pathfinder where everyone follows the rules. It's his game and rules, so he can just say ''this is that'', right?

Everything he is doing is....insane....but what do you even hope to do. Even if he asked for advice, you'd be hard pressed not to sound like the ''whiny player complaining to the DM''.

Worse, somethings like ''understanding Railroading'' would take days to explain and understand....not just a ten minute conversation.

I'm unsure of what you're saying... I'm just trying to listen to other players experiences so I can learn how to be the best player possible for such a situation, and what I can do as a friend to help the DM without being a "back table DM". I just want to know if there is anything I can do now on my end, or if I need to just sit back and see what develops at the table.

Darth Ultron
2017-03-11, 06:34 PM
I'm unsure of what you're saying... I'm just trying to listen to other players experiences so I can learn how to be the best player possible for such a situation, and what I can do as a friend to help the DM without being a "back table DM". I just want to know if there is anything I can do now on my end, or if I need to just sit back and see what develops at the table.

If you want to do anything to help, and that help is not wanted or asked for....then you will have a problem.

There are no magic words you can say that will make him suddenly agree with everything you say.

You can ask him if he wants help...maybe even try as say so nicely....and wen he almost certainly says no, you will just have to drop it.

But, really, even if this guy was the nicest guy on the planet and crawled down at your feet and begged you, the greatest DM he knows in the world, for help.....it would still likely never work. Everything he is doing is just beyond bad.

ShaneMRoth
2017-03-11, 07:42 PM
His comments to the effect that “this is what a DM is supposed to do” are telling. Not only does this fellow lack any interest in learning anything from you, but it seems that he is more interested in teaching you how to DM.

Comments like this are passive-aggressively adversarial, and entirely inappropriate. It’s a matter of simply courtesy, really. You might say something like, “Could you please stop taking shots at my DM style during the game? I just want to be treated like any other player.” Do this in private and away from the gaming table.

He’s not teaching you how to DM. What he’s really doing is teaching the other players what a good DM you already are. So don’t interrupt.

Let him run the game his way. Don’t give him advice until his he asks you for it. (Don’t worry, he won’t ask.) The mistakes you pointed out will fail on their own merits.

If he drives every other player away from the table and you are the last player present, THEN you might say: “So, is THIS what a DM is supposed to do?”

This is your chance to demonstrate, by your conduct, how to be a model player. Do the things you wish players would do when you are behind the DM screen.

When I get to be a player, I consider it a vacation from being a DM. I let someone else adjudicate rules. I’m willing to make a case to the DM for the rules to go a certain way, but I’m not willing to filibuster the DM. I let someone else be the rules-lawyer. I just worry about playing one character, rather than playing every Uncle Bob and Aunt Fanny in the setting. And, this is most important, I know that DMs will make mistakes from time to time, because I make mistakes all the time, and so I accept those mistakes as what they are: a part of the game.

KillianHawkeye
2017-03-11, 08:35 PM
Is your friend a child? He's acting like a child. I don't have any advice for that because I don't have the patience for dealing with immature people.

ShaneMRoth had some good advice, though. You should probably follow what he said to do. Either that, or tell your friend that you're quitting his game because of his unnecessarily hostile attitude towards you. Don't hold it against him when he plays in your games, though. Don't forget that you're the better DM.

1Forge
2017-03-11, 09:27 PM
His comments to the effect that “this is what a DM is supposed to do” are telling. Not only does this fellow lack any interest in learning anything from you, but it seems that he is more interested in teaching you how to DM.

Comments like this are passive-aggressively adversarial, and entirely inappropriate. It’s a matter of simply courtesy, really. You might say something like, “Could you please stop taking shots at my DM style during the game? I just want to be treated like any other player.” Do this in private and away from the gaming table.

He’s not teaching you how to DM. What he’s really doing is teaching the other players what a good DM you already are. So don’t interrupt.

Let him run the game his way. Don’t give him advice until his he asks you for it. (Don’t worry, he won’t ask.) The mistakes you pointed out will fail on their own merits.

If he drives every other player away from the table and you are the last player present, THEN you might say: “So, is THIS what a DM is supposed to do?”

This is your chance to demonstrate, by your conduct, how to be a model player. Do the things you wish players would do when you are behind the DM screen.

When I get to be a player, I consider it a vacation from being a DM. I let someone else adjudicate rules. I’m willing to make a case to the DM for the rules to go a certain way, but I’m not willing to filibuster the DM. I let someone else be the rules-lawyer. I just worry about playing one character, rather than playing every Uncle Bob and Aunt Fanny in the setting. And, this is most important, I know that DMs will make mistakes from time to time, because I make mistakes all the time, and so I accept those mistakes as what they are: a part of the game.

Thank you for the advice. I suppose I ought to be patient and see what happens. I'm just trying to see what I can do to avoid a situation that both I and this player had with another DM who ended up alienating the players and his friends in a pirate campaign. We dissolved quickly after he let a player of his DM for a week, it went poorly and we never met up since. I'd just hate to see the same thing happen again. Anyway thank you for the feedback.

erikun
2017-03-12, 10:54 AM
Well, I have two big pieces of advice for you. (and perhaps a couple of smaller ones)

First, don't backseat DM. If you are familiar with the system that is being run, then you can be helpful if someone is lost or confused about a particular rule (mention how it works, or point out the page it is listed in) but don't try talking about the official rules when you first see a discrepancy. Some DMs use somewhat different rules, and as a DM yourself, you can probably appreciate the players helping out with specific rules or points about their characters rather than everyone immediately jumping on anything you might be doing "wrong". Plus, as you say, it is a custom system so not every rule is going to be the same as in a rulebook.

Second, try to go with the flow. Not every game session is going to involve the PCs meeting at a bar and then roleplaying a reason to go out adventuring. "You are all working together as a group, and you arrive at the hideout of the bandits you have been pursuing" is actually a perfectly fine and valid way of running a game. Not every game is going to be focused on the minutiae of events in town, and especially for a new DM, it can be easier to just jump to the parts which they know they can run well (or think they can run well) as opposed to having the party stuck in town for hours because they don't know how to effectively get the party where it needs to be.

Other than that, make some allowances for their DM newness and style. He locked the door and electrified the pits so the party couldn't use them for cover - okay, not great DMing, but just roll with it and hope they can learn better countermeasures to such things in the future. Lowering AC could be a fatigue system as much as it could be DM fudging, although again, consider that the DM might've wanted to make the fight "tense" and just didn't have the knowledge of how to do so properly. Some aspects I can simply not agree with, such as sniping at your DM style or throwing an in-game penalty for making a joke. I'd be inclined to let them off for now (as I said, new DM, probably doesn't know how to manage things) but if such behaviors keep happening, then talking to the new DM outside the game might be worthwhile.

icefractal
2017-03-14, 12:02 PM
Sounds like he's falling into a trap that new GMs sometimes do - he's drunk with power and thinks that he should do whatever he feels like.

Having the game collapse because enough players get fed up with that **** is one way to learn otherwise, and it might be the only way if he's not interested in listening. You can try bring it up outside the game - ask him whether he'd enjoy this kind of GMing if he was a player, and remind him that video games are a different medium - but it may or may not work.

If he keeps being ****ty about it, don't be afraid to leave the game. Finding out that if you abuse your powers you lose players is a key lesson to becoming a better GM.