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Ichneumon
2007-07-25, 03:11 PM
Oke, I was just wondering:

Let's first quote all the appropriate passages from the SRD:

Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

Oke, here is my question: If an Undead Monk (for example a vampire) gains his/her 20th level in the monk class, does he/she become immune to Turn/Rebuke as Turning is a magical effect and she is treated as an outsider and not as an undead creature?

Is this unbalancing as it is one of the major disadvantages of being undead?

blue_fenix
2007-07-25, 03:16 PM
I don't think there's anything in the RAW that would cover this, but as a DM I would be inclined to rule that the character becomes an Undead and an Outsider. He/she may no longer be a humanoid, but that doesn't stop him/her from being undead too.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 03:17 PM
He becomes Outsider (Augmented Undead), and therefore is still--technically--an undead.

Thinker
2007-07-25, 03:20 PM
He becomes Outsider (Augmented Undead), and therefore is still--technically--an undead.

You beat me to it. This is correct. You do get some nice bonuses from becoming an outsider though.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 03:25 PM
Where is the problem?

Turn Undead is a Supernatural ability.

Nowhere under the Outsider description does it say that Outsiders are immune to supernatural abilities.

I found this specifically on the Wizards site with regards to a 20th level monk's type if it is undead:

Other Creature Types: Creatures with most other types are affected just as humanoids are when class features change their types. Undead creatures require some special handling. The transformation into an undead creature is profound -- so much so that the rules often don't bother with assigning the augmented subtype when creatures become undead (for example, the mummy and the ghoul). Transformation to undeath also is pretty much unalterable unless the creature returns to life (in which case it would regain its old creature type). To reflect the unique state of undeath, apply any class-induced change in type to the creature's original type, even if the creature has not received the augmented subtype for its original type. For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid). When the ghoul becomes a 20th-level monk, it becomes an undead (augmented outsider, native). The ghoul retains all its undead features and traits.

Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a)

Fixer
2007-07-25, 03:26 PM
He becomes Outsider (Augmented Undead), and therefore is still--technically--an undead.

Nope, it becomes Undead (augmented outsider, native). Undead type takes priority over outsider type. See above linkage.

There was a hierarchy of types in Savage Species, I believe. I am hunting for it. AHA! Here it is:

Construct, Outsider, Undead: these three types supersede all others. Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.
Elemental, Ooze, Plant
Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)
Fey, Giant
Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 03:30 PM
Nope, it becomes Undead (augmented outsider, native). Undead type takes priority over outsider type. See above linkage.

There was a hierarchy of types in Savage Species, I believe. I am hunting for it.

Savage Species is 3.0. The Hierarchy is no more. Now, replacements merely happen as replacements.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-25, 03:34 PM
More like 3.25, but it is still a useful guideline for determining what type something should be.

Nero24200
2007-07-25, 03:35 PM
"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid"

I'd rule that since the creature was not treated as a humoniod in the first place, but rather undead, that they would not gain this benifit.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 03:37 PM
Still. The monk in question was undead first.

Undead (augmented humanoid)

Then he became a 20th level monk.

Undead (augmented outsider, native)

His whole type isn't changed, just the humanoid part. You can become un-undead easier than you can become un-outsider. You are immune to energy draining while undead so you cannot lose levels enough to become 19th level monk. That means that in order to 'build backwards', you have to first become living (thereby losing the Undead status, reverting back to Outsider (native)) and THEN you can lose levels enough to become normal humanoid again.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 03:38 PM
"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid"

I'd rule that since the creature was not treated as a humoniod in the first place, but rather undead, that they would not gain this benifit. You can't quote half a sentence like that...

"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. "

Fixer
2007-07-25, 03:42 PM
Savage Species is 3.0. The Hierarchy is no more. Now, replacements merely happen as replacements.

Savage Species might be pre-3.5, but that article I quoted was from 2006. That is 3 years after 3.5 was published. The article supports my argument for Undead (augmented outsider, native).

Zherog
2007-07-25, 03:43 PM
"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid"

I'd rule that since the creature was not treated as a humoniod in the first place, but rather undead, that they would not gain this benifit.

You chose to edit the rule in an interesting place. The OP had the full sentence in his/her quote, but here it is again for reference:


She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

You chose to drop the parenthetical statement, but those seven words are really important to resolving this.

edit: w00t! I was ninja'd. That's what I get for being a slow reader..

Ichneumon
2007-07-25, 03:43 PM
You can't quote half a sentence like that...

"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. "

Good point,

My actual question was this: Am I right to say she can't be turned or rebuked anymore because rebuking is a magical effect and she is treated as an outsider for magical effects and outsiders can't be turned?

Zherog
2007-07-25, 03:46 PM
He becomes Outsider (Augmented Undead), and therefore is still--technically--an undead.

I'm not sure this is true, Fax. For example, a humanoid who changes types and gains this subtype is no longer subject to spells such as hold person. At least, as far as I know...

Fixer
2007-07-25, 03:47 PM
Am I right to say she can't be turned or rebuked anymore because rebuking is a magical effect and she is treated as an outsider for magical effects and outsiders can't be turned?

If you can show ANYWHERE in the RAW that Outsiders cannot be turned, sure. It does not, however, state anywhere under outsider type that they are immune to turning attempts.

I stand by my statement, though, that the undead in question remains an undead and simply gains the augmented outsider, native subtypes.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 03:52 PM
If you can show ANYWHERE in the RAW that Outsiders cannot be turned, sure. It does not, however, state anywhere under outsider type that they are immune to turning attempts.

I stand by my statement, though, that the undead in question remains an undead and simply gains the augmented outsider, native subtypes.

Yeah, I'll agree, particularly due to the verbage of the Monk ability.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 03:54 PM
If you can show ANYWHERE in the RAW that Outsiders cannot be turned, sure. It does not, however, state anywhere under outsider type that they are immune to turning attempts.

Sure, I'll take that challenge...


Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above).

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

The ability, as written, works on undead creatures.

We have the following facts:

At 20th level, a monk's type changes to outsider whenever you try to determine if a spell or magical effect will work
Turn undead is a supernatural ability, and therefore qualifies as a "magical effect" for our first point


For the purposes of magical effects, the monk's type is treated as outsider. Turn (or rebuke) undead works on undead, not outsiders.

Now, there are abilities in the game for turning outsiders. I think there's a domain somewhere that does it, and I'm almost certain there's a prestige class that does it. But if we're talking about the plain ol' cleric ability, that works on undead - and we're specifically instructed by the monk class to treat the character as an outsider rather than an undead.

Your quote comes from a "Rules of the Game" article. Quite frankly, those are full of inconsistencies, outright mistakes, and house rules.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 03:55 PM
I'm not sure this is true, Fax. For example, a humanoid who changes types and gains this subtype is no longer subject to spells such as hold person. At least, as far as I know...


A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

This, in this case, means that spells and effects that target undead specifically would still work. It's still an undead...just an augmented undead.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 03:57 PM
This, in this case, means that spells and effects that target undead specifically would still work. It's still an undead...just an augmented undead.

So, by that reasoning an augmented humanoid should still be subject to hold person, correct?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 03:58 PM
Yes, it would. This is important to note because not every change alters with the Augmented subtype.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I'm trying to find one. I can't in the SRD, but I'm sure I'll be able to find one when I get home and I'm around my books...

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:06 PM
I know Fax said the old hierarchy doesn't apply any more but I think it does with a little twisting:

{table]Types|Rank|Notes
Construct, Undead|Highest|Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. It has no life functions and very little that resembles life functions normally required by lower ranking types.
Elemental, Outsider|2nd Highest|Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider or an elemental. That is about the only way to get one of these types. These might qualify as living, but often exist at a level where extraplanar energies simulate life functions.
Aberration|3rd Highest|Aberrations are when something lower goes horribly wrong and it is removed from the nature. It is still living, however, and behaves as a living thing.
Ooze, Plant|Middle|These types can be applied to all lesser types and anything with these types would only become a different type through some class progression (if possible at all).
Dragon|3rd Lowest|Dragons are what Magical Beasts wish they were. All the 'lesser' types can gain this type (somehow) but Dragons cannot somehow become anything less.
Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Giant|2nd Lowest|If an Animal or Vermin gains some unusual ability, it becomes a Magical Beast. Humanoids who gain a shape with more than just the two arms/two legs/one head become Monstrous Humanoids. Humanoids of 'fey' descent become Fey. Humanoids with a natural size larger than Large become Giant.
Animal, Humanoid, Vermin|Lowest|If it isn't anything else, it falls into one of these three[/table]

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:09 PM
This, in this case, means that spells and effects that target undead specifically would still work. It's still an undead...just an augmented undead.

Are undead normally augmented? Because I imagine things that affect humanoids do not function on undead, meaning a normal Undead is not an "Undead (augmented humanoid)".

If Undead aren't normally augmented anything, then why would they become augmented outsider instead of just an Outsider?

Furthermore, when becoming an Outsider, humanoid monks don't seem to gain the augmented subtype. A humanoid monk is Outsider (Native), not Outsider (Native, Augmented Humanoid).

Though, I guess a more parallel type would be Construct, with the example of a Warforged monk.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:13 PM
We have the following facts:

At 20th level, a monk's type changes to outsider whenever you try to determine if a spell or magical effect will work
Turn undead is a supernatural ability, and therefore qualifies as a "magical effect" for our first point

For the purposes of magical effects, the monk's type is treated as outsider. Turn (or rebuke) undead works on undead, not outsiders.
But can something be not both an outsider AND an undead? You never described how something which is undead can becoming anything other than undead. Does becoming a 20th level monk remove the undead traits entirely?


Now, there are abilities in the game for turning outsiders. I think there's a domain somewhere that does it, and I'm almost certain there's a prestige class that does it. But if we're talking about the plain ol' cleric ability, that works on undead - and we're specifically instructed by the monk class to treat the character as an outsider rather than an undead.
Epic feat. I forget the name.


Your quote comes from a "Rules of the Game" article. Quite frankly, those are full of inconsistencies, outright mistakes, and house rules.
Simply because some have errors does not mean they all do. Unless there is something which directly contradicts the idea that undead type takes precedence over outsider type, it remains an undead and gains another subtype.

Both Savage Species and the article support what I'm saying. Your point pivots on the one sentence from a class description. The only true way to find out which one is correct is to ask WoTC. Want to write the email?

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:13 PM
Furthermore, when becoming an Outsider, humanoid monks don't seem to gain the augmented subtype. A humanoid monk is Outsider (Native), not Outsider (Native, Augmented Humanoid).

Note that nobody actually becomes an outsider by gaining level 20 of monk; instead, they're treated as being an outsider for the purpose of spells and magical effects. It might seem like a small difference, but it's really not.

The 20th level monk isn't an outsider - he/she/it doesn't take on the outsider traits. That creature is just treated as an outsider in two specific cases (spells and magical effects).

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:17 PM
In the SRD under vampires:


Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Thus, the part that changes is just the humanoid part.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:18 PM
But can something be not both an outsider AND an undead? You never described how something which is undead can becoming anything other than undead. Does becoming a 20th level monk remove the undead traits entirely?



The creature does not lose any of its existing traits, nor does it gain any of the traits of being an outsider.

All the ability says is that if a spell or magical effect is dependent upon the creature's type, treat the creature as though it were an outsider - rather than it's existing type - for the purposes of resolving the spell or effect.

A 20th level elf monk is no longer subject to hold person, because that monk is now treated as an outsider for the purposes of spells.

A lich who gains 20 levels monk is no longer subject to turn undead, because that creature - however bizarre it would be - is now treated as an outsider for the purposes of magical effects.

A vampire specifically gains the augmented subtype, and I'm still thinking about whether I agree with Fax about that subtype making the creature a valid target still. heh. I was typing while you quoted the SRD on vamps. Timing is everything

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:19 PM
A vampire specifically gains the augmented subtype, and I'm still thinking about whether I agree with Fax about that subtype making the creature a valid target still.

The justification I use is that, "He's a human, just an undead human."

For further comparison, go with a half-dragon human. He's still a human, but just a half-dragon. He's still affected by human-only spells (and depending on your literature, is affected by dragon-only spells too due to the Dragonblood subtype).

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:20 PM
Note that nobody actually becomes an outsider by gaining level 20 of monk; instead, they're treated as being an outsider for the purpose of spells and magical effects. It might seem like a small difference, but it's really not.

Wow, I never noticed that. Did the 3.0 version actually make the monk an Outsider (Native)? I might have been working off of memory of that.



The 20th level monk isn't an outsider - he/she/it doesn't take on the outsider traits. That creature is just treated as an outsider in two specific cases (spells and magical effects).

Which would mean that a level 20 undead monk is still immune to crits, no Con score, and still affectable by anything but spells and magical effects. Hmm.

I would imagine the turnability would then depend on if you consider 'magical effects' to construe any Supernatural ability, or if you define it as Spell-Like abilities only (which is a different category).

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:21 PM
I would imagine the turnability would then depend on if you consider 'magical effects' to construe any Supernatural ability, or if you define it as Spell-Like abilities only (which is a different category).

Supernatural abilities define themselves as magical effects. That's why they don't work in an AMF.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:21 PM
I would imagine the turnability would then depend on if you consider 'magical effects' to construe any Supernatural ability, or if you define it as Spell-Like abilities only (which is a different category).

As quoted by the OP, supernatural abilities are specifically defined as magical in nature.

edit: Ninja'd, again...

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:22 PM
Yes. The whole "spell effects" part hasn't been butchered down.

Are Supernatural abilities spell effects? They are MAGICAL EFFECTS, but are they spell effects? They aren't spells.

EDIT Ok, it says magical effects but that is still very broad. I know, as a DM, that I won't allow undead to get around turning by getting Perfect Self.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:23 PM
For further comparison, go with a half-dragon human. He's still a human, but just a half-dragon. He's still affected by human-only spells (and depending on your literature, is affected by dragon-only spells too due to the Dragonblood subtype).

Where are you getting this?


Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves.

A half-dragon human is a dragon. Period, end of statement.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:23 PM
Yes. The whole "spell effects" part hasn't been butchered down.

Are Supernatural abilities spell effects? They are MAGICAL EFFECTS, but are they spell effects? They aren't spells.

The monk ability specifies "spells and magical effects". Supernatural counts.

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:24 PM
Supernatural abilities define themselves as magical effects. That's why they don't work in an AMF.

Oh, hey, not reading quotations with a header for the proverbial lose.

Then I don't see why the creature wouldn't become immune to turning.

Considering that almost all undead have Hit Dice, and thus can only attain Monk 20 in an epic game anyway, I hardly see how it'd be a problem.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:24 PM
Yes. The whole "spell effects" part hasn't been butchered down.

Are Supernatural abilities spell effects? They are MAGICAL EFFECTS, but are they spell effects? They aren't spells.

Of course they're not spells. I don't get your point...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:25 PM
Where are you getting this?



A half-dragon human is a dragon. Period, end of statement.

Oops. Wrong template. Working off memory. I am an idiot.

Ichneumon
2007-07-25, 04:25 PM
I would imagine the turnability would then depend on if you consider 'magical effects' to construe any Supernatural ability, or if you define it as Spell-Like abilities only (which is a different category).

Which was my original question.

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:26 PM
Oops. Wrong template. Working off memory. I am an idiot.

Upside, I'm pretty sure there's a feat in... I think Races of Destiny... that allows a half-human to count as a human for spells and effects.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:26 PM
Oops. Wrong template. Working off memory. I am an idiot.

Cheers! :smallbiggrin: http://home.comcast.net/~jeling/smilies/guinness.gif

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:27 PM
I still say it's someone trying to munchkin.

Turning undead is a positive energy effect. The fact that the cleric can do it AS a supernatural ability is not completely relevant.

Undead, tied to the negative energy plane, are particularly vulnerable to positive energy.

Nothing in Perfect Self prevents this from being true. RAW is unclear and I would like to see anyone argue that RAI should allow undead to get away with this.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:28 PM
No, in this case. A vampire Monk 20 is immune to turning.

OH! Half-dragon is a template that doesn't give the augmented subtype! I'm arguing from the wrong side of the argument! A human half-dragon, not having the augmented human subtype, would be an invalid target for hold person, while a human vampire would be a valid target.

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:29 PM
Nothing in Perfect Self prevents this from being true. RAW is unclear and I would like to see anyone argue that RAI should allow undead to get away with this.

I feel that the RAW is pretty clear on it, but to reiterate an earlier point of mine, an Undead with Monk 20 is going to have an epic ECL.

Last I checked, most undead had Hit Dice, and I'm pretty sure even 1 HD Undead do _not_ lose their UD hit die when they gain class levels.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 04:29 PM
Are undead normally augmented? Because I imagine things that affect humanoids do not function on undead, meaning a normal Undead is not an "Undead (augmented humanoid)". Actually, yes they are, if their base type existed. If a PC becomes a Vampire, for example, he becomes "undead (augmented humanoid)".

This fits the definition of an Augmented subtype:
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

If we're really going there...
First someone is a humanoid. [humanoid]
Then someone becomes a vampire. [undead (augmented humanoid)]
Then he becomes a 20th level monk. [undead (augmented humanoid, treated as outsider for the purpose of spells and magical effects)]

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:30 PM
Actually, yes they are, if their base type existed. If a PC becomes a Vampire, for example, he becomes "undead (augmented humanoid)".


It's already been noted that Vampire is a specific exception to that rule.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:31 PM
I feel that the RAW is pretty clear on it, but to reiterate an earlier point of mine, an Undead with Monk 20 is going to have an epic ECL.

they're going to have epic CRs, too, if you turn it to the other side of the table. So what? A vampire who's a 20th level monk will be CR 22. That's certainly a very reasonable BBEG for a non-epic group, somewhere at level 19-20.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-25, 04:33 PM
The justification I use is that, "He's a human, just an undead human."


The point is rather moot in this case.


Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
(My emphasis)

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 04:34 PM
It's already been noted that Vampire is a specific exception to that rule. Vampire is not an exception to that rule, it's a perfect example of that rule.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:36 PM
Are undead normally augmented? Because I imagine things that affect humanoids do not function on undead, meaning a normal Undead is not an "Undead (augmented humanoid)".

Actually, yes they are, if their base type existed. If a PC becomes a Vampire, for example, he becomes "undead (augmented humanoid)".

As far as I can tell in the core rules, actually, the vampire is the exception. None of the undead creatures in the SRD (morhgs, ghouls, etc) have the Augmented subtype. So we're left looking at templates: ghost, lich, skeleton, vampire, zombie.

Ghost and lich do not gain the augmented subtype.

Skeleton and zombie retain whatever subtype they had (interestingly) but do not gain the augmented subtype to go with it.

Vampire gains the augmented subtype.

Am I missing any other undead? If not, it appears vamps are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the augmented subtype.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:36 PM
Crap, I gotta go home and my account on the D&D forums has been retired. I will ask them after they un-retire me. This one is too bizarre.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:37 PM
It's already been noted that Vampire is a specific exception to that rule.

Take Zombie, for instance:


Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead. It retains any subtypes except alignment subtypes and subtypes that indicate kind. It does not gain the augmented subtype. It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

An awakened zombie monk 20 would be Undead (treated as outsider).

EDIT: DAMN I'm slow.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:38 PM
The justification I use is that, "He's a human, just an undead human."

The point is rather moot in this case.



Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.

(My emphasis)

Alright. Change the example spell from hold person to enlarge person.

Fixer
2007-07-25, 04:39 PM
An awakened zombie monk 20 would be Undead (treated as outsider).

Psst, the zombie and skeleton templates remove class abilities. They make the character mindless. No Zombie or Skeleton monks.

Runolfr
2007-07-25, 04:40 PM
A human monk whose type is Humanoid.

If you apply the Vampire template, the monk's type changes to Undead.

If the monk hits level twenty, it's type is treated as Outsider when targeted by magical effects.

Thus, the monk is still an Undead, but a magical effect (like Turn Undead) affects it as if it were an Outsider.

Since Turn Undead does not affect Outsiders, the monk cannot be turned.

Give that this is an Epic combination, I wouldn't consider it particularly unbalanced. It's not like you're likely to encounter a L20 Monk Vampire more than once in an adventuring career. Given all the other options a party of characters suited to such an encounter are likely to have, quibbling over its immunity to turning seems to be a minor consideration.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:40 PM
Psst, the zombie and skeleton templates remove class abilities. They make the character mindless. No Zombie or Skeleton monks.

I said "awakened", which is capable through the awaken undead spell.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:42 PM
>>stuff<<

I agree. In fact, I think it makes a rather interesting and different BBEG for a campaign, rather than the typical caster that seems to be the end boss for so many other campaigns.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 04:42 PM
As far as I can tell in the core rules, actually, the vampire is the exception. Assuming you meant to quote me, I would point out that the Vampire is not an exception to the augmentation rule, as it follows it to the letter. It's exceptional in doing so, you could argue, but that doesn't make it an exception to the augment rules.
None of the undead creatures in the SRD (morhgs, ghouls, etc) have the Augmented subtype. That makes sense, they shouldn't have it. "Corpse" isn't a type. The rule would only apply to undead that are created out of still-living creatures, otherwise they have no type to augment and are simply undead.
Am I missing any other undead? If not, it appears vamps are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the augmented subtype. Actually, Vampires are the only creature that you've checked to which the rule definitely should apply. I suppose it's possible that it should apply to Liches, but that would require more knowledge of the lich-making process than the game ever gives us.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:42 PM
Alright. Change the example spell from hold person to enlarge person.

Half-dragon is invalid, vampire is valid.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:44 PM
Assuming you meant to quote me, I would point out that the Vampire is not an exception to the augmentation rule, as it follows it to the letter. It's exceptional in doing so, you could argue, but that doesn't make it an exception to the augment rules.

There are no "augmentation rules" beyond what is lay down in each template. The templates themselves determine if the type is made into a subtype and augmented or not, nothing else.

Indon
2007-07-25, 04:46 PM
they're going to have epic CRs, too, if you turn it to the other side of the table. So what? A vampire who's a 20th level monk will be CR 22. That's certainly a very reasonable BBEG for a non-epic group, somewhere at level 19-20.

My point is, you can either be an Undead Monk 20, with turn immunity, or a Monk 20 with epic levels and all of the awesomeness that accompanies it. I think it's fairly balanced on both the NPC and PC sides.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 04:46 PM
There are no "augmentation rules" beyond what is lay down in each template. The templates themselves determine if the type is made into a subtype and augmented or not, nothing else. Other than, of course, the aforementioned one for the Augmented subtype?

A template can say to skip it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:46 PM
Half-dragon is invalid, vampire is valid.

I disagree, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. Other than quoting the augmented subtype, can you provide further evidence?

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:49 PM
Assuming you meant to quote me, I would point out that the Vampire is not an exception to the augmentation rule, as it follows it to the letter. It's exceptional in doing so, you could argue, but that doesn't make it an exception to the augment rules.

>>and more stuff I'll snip for space<<

Indon asked if undead are normally augmented. You replied that yes they were. My point was that the only undead in the core game that gains the augmented subtype is the vampire. Nothing else - whether it be "normal" undead creature or template - has the augmented subtype, and therefore it is most decidedly not normal.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 04:52 PM
Indon asked if undead are normally augmented. You replied that yes they were. My point was that the only undead in the core game that gains the augmented subtype is the vampire. Nothing else - whether it be "normal" undead creature or template - has the augmented subtype, and therefore it is most decidedly not normal. Humanoids who turn into Undead are normally augmented. Corpses who are animated as Undead do not. The specific example the OP gave, the Vampire, is augmented.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:52 PM
Other than, of course, the aforementioned one for the Augmented subtype?

A template can say to skip it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Augmented Subtype entry discusses the conditions for its use, not actual application.

And Zherog? The only evidence I have is that the creature retains the subtype--and as such, is still a valid target for spells and effects that require a specific type. The type is still there: it doesn't matter how.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 04:54 PM
Humanoids who turn into Undead are normally augmented. Corpses who are animated as Undead do not. The specific example the OP gave, the Vampire, is augmented.

There are only two methods in Core of becoming undead without being a corpse first: Vampirism and Lichdom. Vampirism retains the type; Lichdom does not.


Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 04:54 PM
Humanoids who turn into Undead are normally augmented. Corpses who are animated as Undead do not. The specific example the OP gave, the Vampire, is augmented.

The underlined statement is not true. The only way for an undead to gain the augmented subtype (in the core rules) is to become a vampire. Any other method of that human turning into an undead does not include the subtype.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 04:57 PM
This, in this case, means that spells and effects that target undead specifically would still work. It's still an undead...just an augmented undead.
No it doesn't. Augmented subtypes have nothing to do with what spells work. Those are still based on the creature's actual type. The part you highlighted spells it outright that an augmented creature gas the traits of its current type but retains features of the original type. These traits and features are listed under each creature types, and under no creature type is "affected by effects that affect creatures of type <x>."

For an Outsider (Augmented Undead), we would have a creature that has
12-sided Hit Dice. (Undead feature)
Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (as wizard). (Undead feature)
Good Will saves. (Undead feature)
Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. (Undead feature)
Darkvision out to 60 feet. (Outsider trait)
Cannot be resurrected unless native. (Outsider trait)
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (Outsider trait)
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. (Outsider trait)
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. (Outsider trait)
But despite those Undead features, the creature is still an Outsider and is considered as such for all purposes other than those listed features.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:00 PM
But despite those Undead features, the creature is still an Outsider and is considered as such for all purposes other than those listed features.

It's still an Undead too, due to that (Augmented Undead) in the Type line.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 05:00 PM
Humanoids who turn into Undead are normally augmented. Corpses who are animated as Undead do not. The specific example the OP gave, the Vampire, is augmented.The underlined statement is not true. The only way for an undead to gain the augmented subtype (in the core rules) is to become a vampire. Any other method of that human turning into an undead does not include the subtype. The sentence following the one you underlined is rather relevant.

The Lich may be an exception to the rule I just gave, although we can't be sure as the exact process of becoming one is never given. Other than that possible one, I'm not aware of any exceptions.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:01 PM
And Zherog? The only evidence I have is that the creature retains the subtype--and as such, is still a valid target for spells and effects that require a specific type. The type is still there: it doesn't matter how.

Let's continue to use enlarge person for our discussion, because it neatly bypasses the undead's paralysis immunity while still fulfilling our need for a spell that affects humanoids.


Target: One humanoid creature
...
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature...


A vampire's type is undead, not humanoid. The spell doesn't target creatures with a particular subtype; it targets creatures with a particular type.

Let's dig deeper, though.


Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

Alright. So... our elf monk that becomes a vampire retains all the features of being a humanoid. What's that actually mean?


Features: A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
* Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.



Those are the features. In every case, the monk class has replaced those features with its own.

Our elf monk who turned into a vampire now has a creature type of undead; creatures with a type of undead are not valid targets for enlarge person regardless of what subtypes they possess.

edit: corrections coming. My lysdexia is acting up again...
edit2: corrections completed; I quoted "traits" rather than features...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:02 PM
The sentence following the one you underlined is rather relevant.

The Lich may be an exception to the rule I just gave, although we can't be sure as the exact process of becoming one is never given. Other than that possible one, I'm not aware of any exceptions.

...The "rule" you are quoting doesn't exist. There is no "rule" written anywhere in any book about how and when undead obtain the augmented subtype and when they don't. Your bit about corpses is logical, but it has no backing in the rules (or even in the fluff).

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 05:04 PM
...The "rule" you are quoting doesn't exist. There is no "rule" written anywhere in any book about how and when undead obtain the augmented subtype and when they don't. Your bit about corpses is logical, but it has no backing in the rules (or even in the fluff). It's backed by the rules due to the fact that "Corpse" isn't a type, and thus can't be augmented. If they were a type, I would expect to see "Undead [augmented corpse]".

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:05 PM
Alright, Zherog, you've got me. However, I'll still probably continue as I have via house rule.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 05:05 PM
Gah, somehow replied without realizing there were two more pages to go. Would have deleted the post and re-read to ensure better understanding before commiting that statemtnt, but this thread is moving way to fast... :smalltongue:

It's still an Undead too, due to that (Augmented Undead) in the Type line.
Augmented is a subtype, not an actual type itself.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:06 PM
It's backed by the rules due to the fact that "Corpse" isn't a type, and thus can't be augmented. If they were a type, I would expect to see "Undead [augmented corpse]".

Where are you getting this "every time your type changes, you gain the augmented type"? You don't. The only time you acquire the augmented type is when the template or class feature gives it to you.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:06 PM
Alright, Zherog, you've got me. However, I'll still probably continue as I have via house rule.

Cheers again. :smallsmile: http://home.comcast.net/~jeling/smilies/guinness.gif

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:07 PM
Gah, somehow replied without realizing there were two more pages to go. Would have deleted the post and re-read to ensure better understanding before commiting that statemtnt, but this thread is moving way to fast... :smalltongue:

Augmented is a subtype, not an actual type itself.

Yeah, yeah, I've conceded that point.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:08 PM
He's still catching up - he just got off page one. :smallbiggrin:

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 05:09 PM
Where are you getting this "every time your type changes, you gain the augmented type"? You don't. The only time you acquire the augmented type is when the template or class feature gives it to you. Can you back your italicized portion with anything from SRD? Because my statement is directly from it, even if your games have ruled that it should not apply.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:11 PM
You'll have to bold or underline instead of italicize; the boards code makes the entire quote italics when you put in the name of who you're quoting...

edit: also, please directly quote the SRD again. And give me an indication where you got the quote, so I can look it up myself in the version I use (I can't use d20srd.org).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-25, 05:11 PM
Alright. Change the example spell from hold person to enlarge person.

The Augmented Subtype was made mainly for bookkeeping reasons.

The intention is, I believe, clearly that features should not influence how magical effects work on the creature.
(I think all other subtypes describe or add something about the traits of the creature.)

Note the example from the Glossary for the familiar. We all know that familiars are not treated as animals for the purpose of spells and effects, yet it is described as having the Augmented Subtype.


A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar is a magical beast (augmented animal). A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar has an animal's features and the traits of a magical beast.


... it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:14 PM
Can you back your italicized portion with anything from SRD? Because my statement is directly from it, even if your games have ruled that it should not apply.

Let's see. Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Celestial, Fiendish, Zombie, Lich, Skeleton, Lycanthrope, and Ghost (that is to say, the majority of templates in the SRD) do not provide the Augmented subtype.

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:14 PM
Note the example from the Glossary for the familiar. We all know that familiars are not treated as animals for the purpose of spells and effects, yet it is described as having the Augmented Subtype.

Actually, I don't see anywhere that says familiars have the augmented subtype...

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:16 PM
Let's see. Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Celestial, Fiendish, Zombie, Lich, Skeleton, Lycanthrope, and Ghost (that is to say, the majority of templates in the SRD) do not provide the Augmented subtype.

Majority? It's every damn one except the vampire. Which, I guess, makes the vampire the exception. I think somebody said that earlier in this thread... :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-25, 05:17 PM
Actually, I don't see anywhere that says familiars have the augmented subtype...

I have bolded the relevant part of the glossary entry I quoted earlier.


A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar is a magical beast (augmented animal). A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar has an animal's features and the traits of a magical beast.

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 05:18 PM
Soundly beaten to the quoting, so I'll just leave this part...

Btw, even if the d20srd.org site doesn't work, see if this one does (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html). Failing that, there's always WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:21 PM
I have bolded the relevant part of the glossary entry I quoted earlier.

However, that text from the glossary seems to directly contradict the rules as outlined in the "familiar" section.


A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.

Doesn't say anything about the augmented subtype...

tainsouvra
2007-07-25, 05:21 PM
Let's see. Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, Half-Fiend, Celestial, Fiendish, Zombie, Lich, Skeleton, Lycanthrope, and Ghost (that is to say, the majority of templates in the SRD) do not provide the Augmented subtype. Most of those would not qualify for Augmented in the first place, so I'm not certain how that proves anything :smallconfused:


Majority? It's every damn one except the vampire. Which, I guess, makes the vampire the exception. I think somebody said that earlier in this thread... :smallwink: But not an exception to the rule given for Augmentation, merely exceptional for following it. I believe somebody said that earlier in this thread as well. :smallcool:


Doesn't say anything about the augmented subtype... I realize that wasn't a reply to me, but as long as I'm replying right now, I'd point out that it doesn't say anything about it either way. It's simply not mentioned, and doesn't contradict except by the assumption that they should have mentioned it (no direct or mechanical contradiction, in other words).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-25, 05:22 PM
Majority? It's every damn one except the vampire. Which, I guess, makes the vampire the exception. I think somebody said that earlier in this thread... :smallwink:

Unless otherwise notes the creature would also gain the Augmented Subtype.


Size and Type: Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.


(My emphasis)

Page 291 of the MM under Templates (Chapter 4 - Advancing monsters).

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:22 PM
Soundly beaten to the quoting, so I'll just leave this part...

Btw, even if the d20srd.org site doesn't work, see if this one does (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html). Failing that, there's always WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

I use this one (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/brief.html). I asked for the section only because most people post a link to d20srd.org, and then I have to try to find it in the version I use...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 05:24 PM
He's still catching up - he just got off page one. :smallbiggrin:
Indeed. And if you'll check the time stamps, you'll notice a major Simu Ninja.


I have bolded the relevant part of the glossary entry I quoted earlier.
Unfortunately, that doesn't actually appear in the description of familiar types, which naturally leads to all sorts of confusion.

Why is nothing from the PHB isn't really clear on creature types? I don't think it ever explicitly states the base races as being humanoids. Why mess with "Elven Blood" and "Orc Blood" racial features when you really mean "Elf subtype" and "Orc subtype" respectively? Familiars, as pointed out. Monks, as demonstrated... Am I missing anything else?

Zherog
2007-07-25, 05:25 PM
Unless otherwise notes the creature would also gain the Augmented Subtype.


(My emphasis)

Page 291 of the MM under Templates (Chapter 4 - Advancing monsters).

I hearby withdrawal my position that the vamp is an exception to templates granting the augmented subtype...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-25, 05:26 PM
Most of those would not qualify for Augmented in the first place, so I'm not certain how that proves anything :smallconfused:

How do you figure? Half-Celestial, Half-Fiendish, Half-Dragon, Celestial, Fiendish, and Lycanthrope all change the creature's type and do not provide the Augmented subtype.

EDIT: I r pwnt by Lord Silvanos.

...as per usual, if you read the Q&A thread.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-25, 05:29 PM
However, that text from the glossary seems to directly contradict the rules as outlined in the "familiar" section.

Doesn't say anything about the augmented subtype...

Contradict? Where do you see a contradiction?

It does not describe the augmented subtype, which is not really surprising since this is the PHB, but the description is exactly what happens when you apply the Augmented Subtype; You keep the features of your old form, but lose the traits.

It follows nicely with the rules for applying a template I quoted above. (a million posts ago at this rate)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 05:31 PM
Unless otherwise notes the creature would also gain the Augmented Subtype.
Ah, yes indeed. Get your nose out of the SRD for a moment and check the sample creatures from the MM. Despite not explicitly mentioning it in the template section, the sample creatures have the augmented subtype.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 02:14 AM
EDIT: I r pwnt by Lord Silvanos.

...as per usual, if you read the Q&A thread.

Hardly, but I think I deserve the award for slowest response time for this thread alone. :smallsigh:

It does not exactly put me in a flattering light, but then again when is the light ever flattering to a Beholder. :smallamused:

Fixer
2007-07-26, 07:08 AM
First: What is the difference between a trait and a feature?

Second: Was there ever a final agreement on whether or not undead 20th level monks can be turned or not? I want to know before I go posting on the WoTC forum.

Exil3dbyrd
2007-07-26, 07:35 AM
Hope I am not to late to chime in but the SRD says under the monk class

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.
Bold by me
So it doesn't matter if the creature was undead(augmented squirrel) for the purpose of spells and magical effects it would be treated as an outsider. I think turning counts as a magical effect so I would say that it would indeed be immune to turning, and even spells like command undead.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 07:42 AM
Hope I am not to late to chime in but the SRD says under the monk class

Bold by me
So it doesn't matter if the creature was undead(augmented squirrel) for the purpose of spells and magical effects it would be treated as an outsider. I think turning counts as a magical effect so I would say that it would indeed be immune to turning, and even spells like command undead.

That was what caused this entire thread. That one sentence.

You can get on either side of the discussion. Refreshments will be served every two days provided you have your ticket.

No ticket? ... Too bad.

Exil3dbyrd
2007-07-26, 08:14 AM
So what I think I am getting from the discussion so far is

A vampire is an undead(augmented humanoid)

Perfect Self acts as if the creature type is Outsider when dealing with magical effects and spells. (that is not in addition to other types, it becomes an outsider)

Clerics can turn/rebuke undead as a supernatural ability

So are supernatural abilities magical effects? If it is than it looks as if undead found a way to not be rebuked, commanded, turned. Unless the cleric can turn outsiders, which there are several prestige classes that allow it.

So all undead have to do to get rid of one of their weaknesses is take 20 lvls of a subpar class. It sounds far and balanced to me.

Zherog
2007-07-26, 08:34 AM
First: What is the difference between a trait and a feature?

A feature is the basic "building blocks" of a creature's stats. Things like hit dice, BAB, base saves, and skills are features.

A trait is all the other stuff - weapon or armor proficiencies, skill bonuses, bonus feats, and so on.



Second: Was there ever a final agreement on whether or not undead 20th level monks can be turned or not? I want to know before I go posting on the WoTC forum.

I think the outcome from the debate last night was that, at least in RAW, a vampire (or whatever undead) who happens to be a 20th level monk is immune to turning because for that effect they're considered outsiders rather than undead.

We arrived there, as best as I recall (I'm too lazy to re-read it right now) by parsing through what would happen to said monk if his wizard buddy were to cast enlarge person on him.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-26, 09:02 AM
A feature is the basic "building blocks" of a creature's stats. Things like hit dice, BAB, base saves, and skills are features.

A trait is all the other stuff - weapon or armor proficiencies, skill bonuses, bonus feats, and so on.
Indeed. They are not explicitly defined as such in the rules anywhere, but if you look up the descriptions of the various creature types, you will see that is how traits and features are determined.


So are supernatural abilities magical effects?
Yes.


Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities.
(emphasis mine)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 09:04 AM
Second: Was there ever a final agreement on whether or not undead 20th level monks can be turned or not? I want to know before I go posting on the WoTC forum.

Both the RotG article about Types and Templates (it even provides an example describing exactly this case) and Savage Species consider Undead to be a type that cannot be changed.
The FAQ also refers to Savage Species when it comes to questions about Type and Subtype.

IMHO the Undead is clearly the top of the pyramid as they put it, also in 3.5.


The PHB is less that precise in its description of type changing effects (as we have seen in the familiar case) and seems to focus more on describing the effects of the mechanical changes rather than the actual change.

If the Monk did not actually become an Outsider you could argue that it simple was a supernatural ability independent of type.
Treated as an Outsider vs. becoming an Outsider.


She is forevermore treated as an outsider ... for the purpose of spells and magical effects. ... Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.


So ironically, if a Monk does not actually become an Outsider through Perfect Self the argument about not being subject to the supernatural ability of Turn Undaed would hold.

If on the other hand Perfect Self actually tries to change the Type the Monk would still be subject to Turning, since the Undead type cannot be altered this way.

(Personally I believe the latter is the case (and so does Skip Williams would seem based on the RotG articles), but the description of Perfect Self is not precise enough on this fine point)

Zherog
2007-07-26, 09:09 AM
I think Perfect Self is quite precise.


She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.

I don't know what is so imprecise about that statement. The creature's type doesn't change (because that has other ramifications). But for the purposes of resolving spells and magical effects, treat the creature as though it were an outsider regardless of what type the creature actually is.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 10:13 AM
I think Perfect Self is quite precise.

Well yes, as precise as the description of familiars.


I don't know what is so imprecise about that statement. The creature's type doesn't change (because that has other ramifications). But for the purposes of resolving spells and magical effects, treat the creature as though it were an outsider regardless of what type the creature actually is.

Problem solved, assuming that Skip Williams misinterpreted Perfect Self.

I could easily read and interpret the description to be a description of the monk after the application of the Outsider type, just as we saw the familiar described.

The first part of the description further supports this.


At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature.

The reason that it is described as it is, is in my opinion exactly because changing type often have other ramifications. The Perfect Self description simply removes the other outsider traits.


Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
...

Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
...

(My emphasis)


Of course I cannot prove this, since I cannot find an official publication featuring a 20th level Monk, but I feel confident that if such a powerful creature should appear it would have the Outsider Type. :smallwink:

Until then I think you win. :smallcool:

Fixer
2007-07-26, 10:34 AM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13198343#post13198343

I have asked the other board for an official resource. I tried to be neutral.

the_tick_rules
2007-07-26, 10:39 AM
hmm, an undead monk, interestin idea.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 10:45 AM
The article that I posted a link to before that had this specific example:

For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid). When the ghoul becomes a 20th-level monk, it becomes an undead (augmented outsider, native). The ghoul retains all its undead features and traits.
Wasn't written by just anyone. It was written by Skip Williams. I would think he'd know something about what he was writing but since those arguing the opposite side seem determined to keep their unturnable monks I suppose they won't care if it was written by Gary Gygax.

Zherog
2007-07-26, 10:50 AM
Problem solved, assuming that Skip Williams misinterpreted Perfect Self.

Quite frankly, I don't trust Skip when it comes to rules usage. There's too many mistakes in the Rules of the Game articles he writes; he made far more demonstratable errors as sage than Andy has; and I've heard industry stuff that can't really be repeated but boils down to "Skip makes a lot of mistakes."

Now, I realize that means I have a personal bias against Skip much more than it means Skip is wrong. But until someone shows me documented evidence to the contrary, I'll take my win. :smallwink:

edit:


For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid).

And we can look in either the Monster Manual or the SRD and prove that statement incorrect. A ghoul is an undead with no subtype. Declaring in the article that they have the Augmented (humanoid) subtype is either flat-out wrong or Skip introducing one of his house rules into the discussion.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 10:55 AM
And we can look in either the Monster Manual or the SRD and prove that statement incorrect. A ghoul is an undead with no subtype. Declaring in the article that they have the Augmented (humanoid) subtype is either flat-out wrong or Skip introducing one of his house rules into the discussion.


Ah, yes indeed. Get your nose out of the SRD for a moment and check the sample creatures from the MM. Despite not explicitly mentioning it in the template section, the sample creatures have the augmented subtype.

Let me find my MM. Ghoul isn't a template, right?

Zherog
2007-07-26, 10:56 AM
Nope. Ghoul is a specific creature.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 11:09 AM
Ok. Is there somewhere where ghoul IS a template? *checks Libris Mortis* Nope. I don't have savage species handy.

Ok, I agree I have no idea where he got that either. Best I can figure is that all ghouls must have once been humanoid and at their death they would have acquired it but that's guesswork and, by default, makes that example useless.

Dammit, Skip! Get your crap straight! grumble

So it is still up in the air until we can get an official critter somewhere.

Zherog
2007-07-26, 11:13 AM
I've re-posted the question to two places. One of those can be found here, on the Nifty message board (http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=1489). Disclaimer: if you think I'm biased against Skip, it's nothin' compared to some of the people on that forum. That said, some of the best number-crunchers I've ever come across can be encountered over there.

The other forum is a private forum used by a collective of freelance game designers, so I can't post a link.

As for Skip's "ghouls are augmented humanoids" dealio... frankly, it's just one more error in the long list of errors Skip makes in his RotG articles. I trust that series of articles less and less every time I read one. For every good insight Skip provides, he turns around and makes a mistake which hurts his credibility.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 11:45 AM
Gravetouched Ghoul, Libris Mortis page 103.

Ghoul template that grants teh augmented subtype. :smallwink:

Jasdoif
2007-07-26, 11:54 AM
What makes this not so clearcut is that Turn Undead refers to "undead creatures". Not "Undead creatures" or "creatures of the Undead type". It's pretty easy to say that all creatures with the Undead type are undead, but can we really claim that all undead creatures have the Undead type?

Is an undead creature that gains a different type (either really in the case of templates, or effectively in the case of Perfect Self) still considered undead, or not?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 11:55 AM
Quite frankly, I don't trust Skip when it comes to rules usage. There's too many mistakes in the Rules of the Game articles he writes; he made far more demonstratable errors as sage than Andy has; and I've heard industry stuff that can't really be repeated but boils down to "Skip makes a lot of mistakes."

Now, I realize that means I have a personal bias against Skip much more than it means Skip is wrong. But until someone shows me documented evidence to the contrary, I'll take my win. :smallwink:


I realize I should not have mentioned Skippy in my argument. :smallsmile:

However, he certainly is not vital, he was only there as support.

The main point is that applying the Outsider type makes much more sense than granting some weird magical ability that treats you as a certain type.

I do not think it is an unreasonable interpretation, I just hope they publish a 20th level monk soon. :smalltongue:

Zherog
2007-07-26, 11:58 AM
I'm not around my books, but as I recall there's a bunch of NPCs in the DMG. Did they advance a monk somewhere in that glob of NPC goodness?

edit:

Also, here's an interesting thing to look at, maybe:


Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 20/+1.

So the ability was definitely re-worked when the change from 3.0 to 3.5 happened. Not surprising, I guess, since they had to fix the DR. 3.0 still said "treated as an outsider" though it specifically referred to only humanoids. So part of the change to 3.5 was to clarify that the change, whatever it actually is, happens to all creature types.

Don't quite know what it really means, but I thought it was interesting that they attempted to clarify the ability.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 12:14 PM
I'm not around my books, but as I recall there's a bunch of NPCs in the DMG. Did they advance a monk somewhere in that glob of NPC goodness?


I found a 15th level Mook, I mean Monk.


edit:

Also, here's an interesting thing to look at, maybe:
...
Don't quite know what it really means, but I thought it was interesting that they attempted to clarify the ability.


It is, but as you already established the Outsider traits brings a lot of baggage, so it really needed a clarification in any case.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 12:32 PM
What makes this not so clearcut is that Turn Undead refers to "undead creatures". Not "Undead creatures" or "creatures of the Undead type". It's pretty easy to say that all creatures with the Undead type are undead, but can we really claim that all undead creatures have the Undead type?

Is an undead creature that gains a different type (either really in the case of templates, or effectively in the case of Perfect Self) still considered undead, or not?

Good job noticing that distinction.

This isn't about the creature's type. Is a 20th level monk vampire/lich/ghost/whatever still an undead creature? It doesn't matter if its type becomes "Alabaster", is it still undead (as in animated dead)?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 12:46 PM
That is a false distinction.

When they say undead (even un-capitalized) they refer to the type just as everywhere else.


This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature...

See? Not Humanoid, but humanoid.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-26, 01:02 PM
So the ability was definitely re-worked when the change from 3.0 to 3.5 happened. Not surprising, I guess, since they had to fix the DR. 3.0 still said "treated as an outsider" though it specifically referred to only humanoids. So part of the change to 3.5 was to clarify that the change, whatever it actually is, happens to all creature types.

Don't quite know what it really means, but I thought it was interesting that they attempted to clarify the ability.
Well, it means that they realized they shouldn't be writing from the assumption that everyone plays a creature of the Humanoid type. The downside, is they only took the lesson halfway. As such, the PHB-related material referring to types and subtypes remains confusing as hell.

Jasdoif
2007-07-26, 01:03 PM
That is a false distinction.

When they say undead (even un-capitalized) they refer to the type just as everywhere else.I dunno....I know confusion can happen when descriptive terms and mechanical terms use the same name, and this may be venturing outside of RAW, but I'm not convinced that gaining a different type automatically removes the negative energy "shambling dead" quality of being undead.

In retrospect, this would all be a lot easier if Undead was a subtype instead of a type.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-26, 01:10 PM
In retrospect, this would all be a lot easier if Undead was a subtype instead of a type.

Which, honestly, it probably should be.

Fixer
2007-07-26, 01:15 PM
Undead as a subtype. Construct and Living Construct as a subtypes as well.

Plant (undead) a.k.a. undead treant
Outsider (construct) a.k.a. retreiver
Vermin (undead) lots of choices
Magical Beast (living construct) most effigies, really
Giant (construct) golems
Humanoid (living construct) a.k.a. warforged

That'd work out a HELL of a lot better, actually.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 01:25 PM
I dunno....I know confusion can happen when descriptive terms and mechanical terms use the same name, and this may be venturing outside of RAW, but I'm not convinced that gaining a different type automatically removes the negative energy "shambling dead" quality of being undead.

In retrospect, this would all be a lot easier if Undead was a subtype instead of a type.

I really don't think this is a point of much confusion. "undeads" refer to "Undeads" as "humanoids" refer to "Humanoids".

That is a moot point in any case since the Undead type cannot be removed.

The Pyramid of Types aligns nicely with your negative energy intuition, if I may call it that?

Jasdoif
2007-07-26, 01:37 PM
Undead as a subtype. Construct and Living Construct as a subtypes as well."Standard" constructs should still have their own type, as golems and the like aren't actually based on existing creatures. A retriever isn't an outsider, even though it resembles one.

Technically Living Construct is already a subtype, but I agree that it should be allowed on types other then Construct.


The Pyramid of Types aligns nicely with your negative energy intuition, if I may call it that?Negenergintuition, mayhaps?

Is there popcorn on that pyramid?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 03:02 PM
A retriever isn't an outsider, even though it resembles one.

A good example of the top of the Pyramid though.



Negenergintuition, mayhaps?

Much better. It will also make it easier for everyone to know what we are talking about. :smallwink:


Is there popcorn on that pyramid?

No, I have the popcorn. I thought you knew that by now. :smalltongue:

Zherog
2007-07-26, 04:44 PM
Summarizing the conversation on the freelancer's forum I mentioned earlier.

1) Rules as Written probably say:


A) a creature who is undead who attains 20th level in the monk class is immune to turn undead.

B) A creature who is a 20th level monk who becomes undead is up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle if a cleric attempts to turn him.


2) Intent is probably meant to function like the pyramid thingy in Savage Species, where the undead is up the proverbial creek either way.

Khantalas
2007-07-26, 04:47 PM
A) a creature who is undead who attains 20th level in the monk class is immune to undead.

OK, that is a typo, but being immune to undead just rocks.

Zherog
2007-07-26, 04:51 PM
I don't know what you're talking about...

*whistles innocently*

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 05:07 PM
Summarizing...

Isn't it nice when we all agree. :smalltongue:


That is, until they publish Complete Mook featuring a 20th level Kobold Monk with the Outsider type...

Then you will read it and weep (and so will everyone else for that matter, but that is besides the point).

I am almost considering applying for a job at WotC just so I can make this product and sent you a free copy. :smalltongue:

Krrth
2007-07-26, 05:13 PM
Well, I know it's outside of core, but I think the MMII or III has an undead outsider in it. Could give precident if it's description says it can be turned.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 05:22 PM
Well, I know it's outside of core, but I think the MMII or III has an undead outsider in it. Could give precident if it's description says it can be turned.

Whether it is CORE is not important as long as it is RAW.

However, I don't think you will find such a creature in either MM II or MM III. The closest will probably be an Outsider with the Incorporeal subtype...

Krrth
2007-07-26, 05:44 PM
If I remember right, it was called a visage. Kind of like a vampire. If it killed an outsider, that outsider became a visage. I might have the book wrong, though.

Krrth
2007-07-26, 05:52 PM
Right name, wrong book. It's in Liber Mortis. It's a medium outsider with the chaotic, evil, and extraplanar traits. it is not immune to turning.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-26, 06:05 PM
Right name, wrong book. It's in Liber Mortis. It's a medium outsider with the chaotic, evil, and extraplanar traits. it is not immune to turning.

"Liber Mortis" is "Free Death". "Libris Mortis" is "Book of Death". Just sayin'.

Krrth
2007-07-26, 06:41 PM
oops Well, technically, death doesn't charge, but I know what ya mean.

Zherog
2007-07-26, 07:41 PM
Right name, wrong book. It's in Liber Mortis. It's a medium outsider with the chaotic, evil, and extraplanar traits. it is not immune to turning.

It's certainly immune to turn undead if its type is outsider...

edit: the visage is an undead, not an outsider...

Krrth
2007-07-27, 08:29 AM
Yeah, thats what I get for trying to post while in class....I meant to say it's an undead with the chaotic evil and extraplaner traits....

AslanCross
2007-07-27, 08:43 AM
The Devourer from MM is also Undead (Extraplanar). It's clearly an undead thing but isn't from around here. These are probably the closest we can get to Undead Outsiders, apart from the confusing Lv 20 Vampire Monk issue.

I think it was the MM that says the spirits of Outsiders are one unit with the body, and that they contain the essence of their home plane. As such they cannot be truly killed in the Prime Material. If they cannot be truly killed, I don't think they can be animated as undead either. Still, that's a moot point when we look at the Vampire Monk.

Krrth
2007-07-27, 08:52 AM
True. I know the text of the visage mentions that any evil outsider killed by one becomes a visage. However, as for turning the vampire monk...my gut feeling is that it is suposed to still be turnable, but thats just my opinion.

mudbunny
2007-07-27, 09:08 AM
Oops. Wrong template. Working off memory. I am an idiot.

Could you be thinking of Dragonborn (from Races of the Dragon)?? IIRC, they keep their original type, but also add Dragon as a subtype.