Recommendations for rogue items

[VoxRationis]

I've got 9000 gp to play with and a rogue to get items for (well, I also have a wizard/rogue to get items for, but that's different). The rogue in question has both Strength and Dexterity scores of 17 and mostly dual-wields a bastard sword and a short sword, sometimes switching to using the bastard sword only. Armor is a chain shirt currently, and skillset revolves around typical thiefly matters. No magic items currently.

I've been playing around with various different ideas for what to get. The campaign is likely to involve a good amount of spies and skullduggery, but the wizard/rogue will cover most of the intrigue. I've thought about pumping up the bastard sword. Making it +1 human-bane would be particularly useful, as most enemies in this setting are humans, but that'd take up most of the gold and not allow for defensive or utilitarian items; I'm not sure how important those are considered to be. Available resources are mostly DMG, but if there's something good from the PHB II or Heroes of Battle, it'll probably be allowed.

Ideas?

[Darrin]

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) has a section on magic items.

Available sources are DMG, PHBII (which has no magic items) and Heroes of Battle? So no MIC? What about online sources? Or is it more of a "ask the DM to allow X" situation?

[VoxRationis]

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) has a section on magic items.

Available sources are DMG, PHBII (which has no magic items) and Heroes of Battle? So no MIC? What about online sources? Or is it more of a "ask the DM to allow X" situation?

It's a "these are the books we have, and I doubt the DM will let me bring new books just to grab a couple of exotic magic items" sort of situation.

[Holcane]

Do you have UMD? Perhaps some wands or some helpful spells might be handy to have and you'd have a variety of spells from those books.

[Matrota]

The fact that MIC is off the table takes away pretty much every magic item on my rogue's personal wishlist that I'd reccomend. If the DMG is your main source, I'd find some nice spells that would benefit you and use the item creation stuff on page 282. You're probably gonna be stuck with 0-1st level spell enchantments with your budget.

[Darrin]

I'll look through the DMG again later when I have some time. Can your rogue pay to have some custom items created? If so, we can probably kitbash something together for you.

Hmm. +1 weapon and +1 armor will take up about 3500 GP.

You didn't mention online sources. Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) can be pretty useful for anyone who wants to hack the action economy a bit.

Otherwise, Hat of Disguise (1800 GP, DMG) is immensely useful for social engineering, although you'll want to put some ranks in bluff or disguise.

[noce]

Here's a List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).
They're deemed necessary.

Anyway, most items on the list are not from DMG, since the ones from DMG suck.

[Jay R]

Will the DM allow a custom item using the rules in the RPG? The most obvious cheap and useful items are a Belt of Giant Strength +1 and Gloves of Dexterity +1.

[Vizzerdrix]

Aaww. And here I was just going to post Shapesand and leave.

How is your umd skill? You may want to grab a few wands for dealing with things you cant sneak attack, or to have a bit of emergency healing on hand.

[Eladrinblade]

I've got 9000 gp to play with and a rogue to get items for (well, I also have a wizard/rogue to get items for, but that's different). The rogue in question has both Strength and Dexterity scores of 17 and mostly dual-wields a bastard sword and a short sword, sometimes switching to using the bastard sword only. Armor is a chain shirt currently, and skillset revolves around typical thiefly matters. No magic items currently.

I've been playing around with various different ideas for what to get. The campaign is likely to involve a good amount of spies and skullduggery, but the wizard/rogue will cover most of the intrigue. I've thought about pumping up the bastard sword. Making it +1 human-bane would be particularly useful, as most enemies in this setting are humans, but that'd take up most of the gold and not allow for defensive or utilitarian items; I'm not sure how important those are considered to be. Available resources are mostly DMG, but if there's something good from the PHB II or Heroes of Battle, it'll probably be allowed.

Ideas?

It sounds like you're a melee damage specialist in a low-powered game. That human bane addition sounds like it would really help you out.

That said, the following are good items for any rogue to have:
-boots of longstriding (2000gp, +10ft enhancement to speed)
-goggles of minute seeing (1250gp, +5 search)
-cloak and boots of elvenkind (2500gp each, +5 hide and move silently, respectively)
-you could get all of those at once with 9k

Do you have UMD?
-wand of reduce person
-wand of faerie fire
-wand of produce flame (higher CL is better)

[Dagroth]

If he's allowing DMG, he's (by default) allowing custom magic items.

The build rules give clear values for things like +1 Dex gloves, 3/day magic missile wands, +5 competence to skill items, etc.

[rel]

blindfold of true darkness is exactly 9000 GP and negates almost all forms of concealement so you can reliably sneak attack. also it lets you see in the dark and spot hiding enemies automatically so you can scout much better.

lens of detection is a slotless untyped +5 to search for 3500

[Eladrinblade]

blindfold of true darkness is exactly 9000 GP

Pretty sure that was an editing error. It should be 90,000

[Fizban]

9,000gp is not much, especially with DMG only. No mention of what level you are either.

You should obviously have a +1 weapon, or two if you're consistently using that TWF, and +1 armor. Mithral Shirt is a good investment if you expect to ever reach a dex mod of +5 or more. You should probably have a masterwork composite (3) shortbow, as well as cold iron and silver melee weapons and arrows. I expect you're taking plenty of damage, so a wand of Cure Light should be around. Other 1st level spells like Unseen Servant can make you more tricky as long as you have UMD to activate them in wand or scroll form.

The tan and rust Bags of Tricks are a bit pricey for right now, but the grey one is still popular for mischief. A Handy Haversack is a staple you might want to get out of the way early, since even with high strength it quickly becomes difficult to stay under a light load, and then you fill it with mundane and alchemical supplies and 1st level scrolls. Pearls of Power are often suggested for getting your party casters to prepare a certain buff for you, useful if you need more duration than a 1st level wand.

Marvelous Pigments are the DMG's great variable item, especially if you're allowed to paint terrain as the Stronghold Builder's Guide and Dungesoncape suggest to make cracks and holes in doors and walls. Some people might even say it could make a pit of lava since lava has no price. Universal Solvent, Unguent of Timelessness, and Salve of Slipperiness are all fairly inexpensive weird effects that can be made use of. The Ring of Sustenance is also popular for removing food and reducing sleep to only 2 hours per night.

[VoxRationis]

Here's a List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).
They're deemed necessary.

Anyway, most items on the list are not from DMG, since the ones from DMG suck.

That's not particularly helpful, considering I don't have access to many of those things, and the game isn't as high-level as that list seems to suggest.


Will the DM allow a custom item using the rules in the RPG? The most obvious cheap and useful items are a Belt of Giant Strength +1 and Gloves of Dexterity +1.

Probably not. Technically, these items are all coming from the hoards of various dragons aligned with us politically. It's fairly generous that we get to pick items at all, or that I get to say I start out with two 25-charge wands instead of one 50-charge wand.


Aaww. And here I was just going to post Shapesand and leave.

How is your umd skill? You may want to grab a few wands for dealing with things you cant sneak attack, or to have a bit of emergency healing on hand.

No UMD skill. I considered it, but the character couldn't fit it in.


It sounds like you're a melee damage specialist in a low-powered game. That human bane addition sounds like it would really help you out.

That said, the following are good items for any rogue to have:
-boots of longstriding (2000gp, +10ft enhancement to speed)
-goggles of minute seeing (1250gp, +5 search)
-cloak and boots of elvenkind (2500gp each, +5 hide and move silently, respectively)
-you could get all of those at once with 9k

But that's two sets of boots...

Do you have UMD?
-wand of reduce person
-wand of faerie fire
-wand of produce flame (higher CL is better)


9,000gp is not much, especially with DMG only. No mention of what level you are either.

You should obviously have a +1 weapon, or two if you're consistently using that TWF, and +1 armor. Mithral Shirt is a good investment if you expect to ever reach a dex mod of +5 or more. You should probably have a masterwork composite (3) shortbow, as well as cold iron and silver melee weapons and arrows. I expect you're taking plenty of damage, so a wand of Cure Light should be around. Other 1st level spells like Unseen Servant can make you more tricky as long as you have UMD to activate them in wand or scroll form.

The tan and rust Bags of Tricks are a bit pricey for right now, but the grey one is still popular for mischief. A Handy Haversack is a staple you might want to get out of the way early, since even with high strength it quickly becomes difficult to stay under a light load, and then you fill it with mundane and alchemical supplies and 1st level scrolls. Pearls of Power are often suggested for getting your party casters to prepare a certain buff for you, useful if you need more duration than a 1st level wand.

Marvelous Pigments are the DMG's great variable item, especially if you're allowed to paint terrain as the Stronghold Builder's Guide and Dungesoncape suggest to make cracks and holes in doors and walls. Some people might even say it could make a pit of lava since lava has no price. Universal Solvent, Unguent of Timelessness, and Salve of Slipperiness are all fairly inexpensive weird effects that can be made use of. The Ring of Sustenance is also popular for removing food and reducing sleep to only 2 hours per night.

This is the sort of reply I was hoping for. I wasn't really sure what prevailing wisdom stated was most important for low-level rogues. Unfortunately, the group met and played before I got to see it. The player in question (I was consulting for them, not playing the character myself; I play the party wizard) elected to avoid spending any more on armor, getting instead Gauntlets of Ogre Power for making her attacks more effective. She also got a few odds and ends, like Elixir of Firebreath. Though the Ring of Sustenance could have been useful, I don't think anyone found room in the budget for one; fortunately, our party has two high-Survival characters, and the terrain in the campaign such far makes foraging pretty easy. Actually, one of our characters did get a bag of tricks; others of us settled for the less-portable standby of having three guard dogs (of the sort trained to make trip attacks).

[Vizzerdrix]

No UMD skill. I considered it, but the character couldn't fit it in.

Wait. What. You didnt take the best skill in the game? I am confused.:smallconfused:

[Fizban]

Eh, it'll be fine (as long as the DM's giving out loot properly). Assuming that 9k was 5th level starting gold, you're in the range where WBL is ramping up pretty hard while most of those items are pretty cheap. It's just a question of what to pick up first: mithral shirt is only 1,100, +1 enhancement is only 1,000, bow is only 600 or so, the bag and ring are in the 2k range and all consumables are 1k or less as long as you're allowed to purchase them (or the DM places them for you). The pigments were the only big thing I listed but they're also potentially quite disruptive and can be consumed very quickly, they can still make a great drop later once everyone's settled in (and you can count it as party loot since everyone benefits and split the cost instead of dumping it all on one character).

[VoxRationis]

Wait. What. You didnt take the best skill in the game? I am confused.:smallconfused:

Rogue skills are always at a premium. Taking UMD means not taking something like Forgery, and we're fighting people who should have a patent on the phrase "show me your papers," so we're getting plenty of use out of that skill. In particular, this is not a high-magic campaign. Having WBL-appropriate levels of magic items dropped on us is a rarity. Most or all magic items going ahead will be in the hands of our direct enemies, usually in the personal possession of high-level inquisitor-types, and those NPCs tend to try to destroy materiel rather than let us get it, even if it means dying. In short, we can't count on finding enough magical items that UMD would get much use (especially given that we have a wizard/rogue, cleric, and druid already in the party, who all tend to lay dibs on those sorts of magic items), and we definitely need all the other skills we can get.

[Eladrinblade]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking too clearly with the two sets of boots there. That said, you can get the shadow enhancement on your armor or just use a wand of longstrider (if you have UMD).

[noce]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking too clearly with the two sets of boots there. That said, you can get the shadow enhancement on your armor or just use a wand of longstrider (if you have UMD).

As a rule in M.I.C., you can combine two items that normally occupy the same slot in a single item.
They don't need to have the same shape, you can for example combine sandals with boots.
The resulting cost will be the sum of their costs, plus half the cost of the cheaper item.

But again, M.I.C., so not allowed for the OP.

[Eladrinblade]

That's in the DMG as well, it's just that he wouldn't be able to afford all those items if he did that.

[Melcar]

It's a "these are the books we have, and I doubt the DM will let me bring new books just to grab a couple of exotic magic items" sort of situation.

Two comments:

1) Magic Item Compendium does not only contain "exotic" items, but also core items and magic tools, which are both flavourful and well balanced.

2) Why do you limit yourself to half a game because you only have them in print? The books and thus the content are readily available online. You're missing feats, classes, spells, items, and flavour for build!

[VoxRationis]

I don't consider the game to be composed of all of its sourcebooks. It's composed of its core, and the sourcebooks are extra. Icing, as it were. The tables I play at tend to be of similar mind.

[Melcar]

I don't consider the game to be composed of all of its sourcebooks. It's composed of its core, and the sourcebooks are extra. Icing, as it were. The tables I play at tend to be of similar mind.

Sure that's your prerogative, I just have different opinion. Whatever floats your boat. I was just curious about your argument, which to me sounded like bringing in official content beyond the three core books, was in some way "cheating". The latest content is arguable more balanced, one could argue the game gets better with the more content you allow. 1) because it adds cool options for players and DMs (which is quite a big part of the game (all the multiple choices)) and 2) it good quality content.

[Fizban]

Why is this thread so full of arguing with the restrictions? Man has a game, that's the game, just deal with it.

So you've got hardcore mode on. If you've got no flexibility and are under-stocked in magic items it's a good thing you've got all three major casters. Most of the "necessary magic items" are only necessary if your casters are refusing to share buffs like they're supposed to. The strength booster was probably the right call in this instance, it's expensive enough that NPCs shouldn't be packing them for a while so making sure you have it now is a good investment, while +1 armor and weapons should show up sooner.

Gotta say that destroying magic items to avoid you getting them is a bit nonsensical though. It smacks of a complete disregard for the sheer price of them, which even the wealthiest NPCs should not be willing to throw away. That said it should be plenty exploitable if you can scare them into wrecking their own stores of supplies, and it gives you more liscence to do so yourself: if they'll destroy it instead of running away, destroy it yourself first so they're easier to kill.

[VoxRationis]

Gotta say that destroying magic items to avoid you getting them is a bit nonsensical though. It smacks of a complete disregard for the sheer price of them, which even the wealthiest NPCs should not be willing to throw away. That said it should be plenty exploitable if you can scare them into wrecking their own stores of supplies, and it gives you more liscence to do so yourself: if they'll destroy it instead of running away, destroy it yourself first so they're easier to kill.

The NPCs we've found with them tend to be either enemy military or enemy secret police. I assume they don't pay for them out of pocket, and their superiors would be less angry to find out that they destroyed the item than to find out that the item is returning its value to us. The DM has ruled that wands release all their spells at once when broken, so the inquisitors we've fought (packing wands of fireball) tend to want to snap them when hope of victory is lost. They generally assume they're about to die anyway.

[Darrin]

The DM has ruled that wands release all their spells at once when broken, so the inquisitors we've fought (packing wands of fireball) tend to want to snap them when hope of victory is lost. They generally assume they're about to die anyway.

It sounds to me like your DM is going out of his way to be a jerk.

Anyway. 9000 GP... my recommendations:

2335 GP bastard sword +1
400 GP true strike 1/day (added as a use-activated spell effect)

310 GP MW shortsword

1250 GP chain shirt +1
360 GP protection from evil 1/day (added as a command word spell effect)

1000 GP, Cloak of Resistance +1
360 GP, obscuring mist 1/day (added as a command word spell effect)

1800 GP, Hat of Disguise
900 GP, Hand of the Mage

100 GP, Blessed Bandage x10 (Heroes of Battle)

8815 GP Total

Also recommended:

2000 GP, Heward's Handy Haversack
2000 GP, Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)
2000 GP, Ring of Protection +1
2200 GP, Ring of Feather Falling

[VoxRationis]

It sounds to me like your DM is going out of his way to be a jerk. Eh, we consider it a reasonable solution, and we've considered doing the same under like circumstances. It's a fairly low-magic setting. Magic is a very significant thing in it, and our enemy doesn't want us to get ahold of what little magic they have.


Anyway. 9000 GP... my recommendations:

2335 GP bastard sword +1
400 GP true strike 1/day (added as a use-activated spell effect)

310 GP MW shortsword

1250 GP chain shirt +1
360 GP protection from evil 1/day (added as a command word spell effect)

1000 GP, Cloak of Resistance +1
360 GP, obscuring mist 1/day (added as a command word spell effect)

1800 GP, Hat of Disguise
900 GP, Hand of the Mage

100 GP, Blessed Bandage x10 (Heroes of Battle)

8815 GP Total

Also recommended:

2000 GP, Heward's Handy Haversack
2000 GP, Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)
2000 GP, Ring of Protection +1
2200 GP, Ring of Feather Falling

Why does an item that appeared in writing as an April Fool's Day joke keep cropping up? Thanks for the recommendations, though.

[Darrin]

Why does an item that appeared in writing as an April Fool's Day joke keep cropping up? Thanks for the recommendations, though.

Because it's so darned useful. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8235936&postcount=8) The unseen servant gets a move action and standard action every round, so it gives you a leg up on the action economy. When you're a rogue, your primary role is usually to support the frontline meatbags or create disorder from the shadows. The unseen servant allows you to manipulate objects at a distance, investigate or trigger traps remotely, capitalize on asymmetric mismatches, and create confusion. And when it's not doing that, it can also pamper and clean up after you.

[Fizban]

Eh, we consider it a reasonable solution, and we've considered doing the same under like circumstances. It's a fairly low-magic setting. Magic is a very significant thing in it, and our enemy doesn't want us to get ahold of what little magic they have.
Which is why a Wand of Fireballs worth 11,000gp, or 5,500+11 days of a 5th level Wizard's time+450 of his experience points is disposable. A low-magic setting shouldn't be able to support high level wands, let alone destroying them out of spite. Their superiors should be furious about losing the items and demand they survive and retreat rather than waste their apparently high level spellcasting lives destroying irreplacable equipment and then fighting to the death.

Accept restrictions, sure, but this world only makes sense from the direction of "use powerful consumables against players without giving them any," unless there are some ridiculously good justifications hiding under there.

[VoxRationis]

Which is why a Wand of Fireballs worth 11,000gp, or 5,500+11 days of a 5th level Wizard's time+450 of his experience points is disposable. A low-magic setting shouldn't be able to support high level wands, let alone destroying them out of spite. Their superiors should be furious about losing the items and demand they survive and retreat rather than waste their apparently high level spellcasting lives destroying irreplacable equipment and then fighting to the death.

Accept restrictions, sure, but this world only makes sense from the direction of "use powerful consumables against players without giving them any," unless there are some ridiculously good justifications hiding under there.

Perhaps I've given the wrong impression or implied something by accident. The enemy has no mages; the inquisitors are (rather ironically) rogues with UMD. I suspect they're using dragon parts or something to make their magic items.
And this setting is about a conflict between a group of rebels and a centralized, totalitarian empire. Our enemy is a monolithic force, or at least likes to present itself as a monolithic force. It is trying to prevent us from successfully rebelling against its rule. To that end, it does its best to keep us from acquiring materiel of strategic weight. Price, for an expansionistic empire that has no qualms against using its enemies as slave labor, is no object compared to the threat of us acquiring something powerful. Notably, when we have acquired magical or high-tech items, we've used them to devastating effect in support of our guerilla outfit. So when we storm a keep and the inhabitants (who can't really go anywhere) find themselves critically outgunned, they naturally try to deny us these items.

[Fizban]

They're still "cheating" to get their magic items though, and the expected price of those magic items remains staggering compared to throwing another army at something (and you need troops to hold the ground anyway). If they have unlimited resources they'd do better pitting resources against resources, rather than creating strategic weapons you can loot. If they must have wands for fighting the party, single target spells that are of little strategic value at least. Two scorching rays (on rogues even) is far more likely to screw with the party than a fireball. It's all a perfectly reasonable campaign setup, but the circumstances that lead to it must be engineered or handwaved in my estimation.