Setting a reaction before combat

[sir_argo]

Imagine a simple set up... a group of bandits is facing off with a group of soldiers guarding a royal carriage. The bandits already have their crossbows readied and pointed. The guards are near the carriage and have no weapons drawn. The bandit leader and captain have both walked forward to parlay. The bandit leader is demanding the guards hand over any gold on the carriage or they will attack.

Combat has not started. There is no surprise. If you are not allowed to set reactions before combat, then something odd seems to happen. If either the guards or bandits decide to begin combat, we just roll initiative and proceed down the turn order. That's weird because if Guard #4 is the one who decides he's had enough and starts combat, but he rolls a lousy initiative (3), he ends up going darn near last even though he's the one who triggered the beginning of combat. Further, it would be really weird that any guards who won initiative over the bandits would literally draw their weapons, move and attack a bandit before the bandit could fire their crossbow... even though the bandit was clearly pointing the crossbow at him and waiting for him to move.

I don't see it in the rules, but I think it would be appropriate to allow a character to set a reaction trigger out of combat. In this example, everybody would have a trigger set because they're anticipating hostility could erupt at any second. If it does, Guard #4 decides to act, that will set off the bandits' reactions, which in turn will set off the guards' reactions. So in what order do we process all of these? There does not appear to be a rule on whose reaction gets processed first. I think it is fair to use the initiative turn order.

With that in mind, I have an example. All of the bandits have a trigger to fire if any guard does anything other than stand still. The guards all set their reactions to be, if any of the bandits fire, I Dodge, except the captain who is standing within 5' of the bandit leader. The captain sets a reaction to attack the bandit leader with whatever he had in his hand (shield, fist, maybe he has a spear which is always in hand). The bandit leader sets his reaction to move away if any guard moves or attacks. For the sake of this example, everybody will target their numerical equivalent: bandit #1 goes up against guard #1; guard #3 targets bandit #3; etc. The bandit leader and captain target each other.

So, I'm going to take my hand at how I think this would go and I'm asking for you to point out where I have it wrong.

As stated, Guard #4 decides he's had enough and is going to attack. If I count this as a normal action, then everybody else gets their reactions after he moves. I find that weird. To me, he is using his reaction (if nobody has done something after 10 seconds, I charge). Well the 10 seconds lapsed and ge charges bandit #4. Since this counts as the beginning of combat, everyone rolls initiative and the chart is set. There is no surprise:

(22) Guard #3
(21) Bandit #2
(18) Bandit #5
(17) Guard #5
(16) Bandit #4
(14) Guard #2
(13) Captain
(11) Guard #1
(8) Bandit #3
(4) Bandit Leader
(3) Guard #4 <-- this guy starts it
(1) Bandit #1

Everyone has reactions set, so I would resolve them using the same turn order determined by initiative. We skip all the way down the chart to Guard #4, who moves up to bandit #4 but can't attack because this is his reaction. This does not set off any of his fellow guards' reactions, but it does set off all of the bandits' reactions. I can't just continue from that point--lots of bandit reactions just went off. So I return to the top of the initiative order to determine which bandit's reaction goes first, which is bandit #2. His reaction goes off and he fires at guard #2. This triggers all the guards who had set a reaction to Dodge. Again, I don't think it is right to just continue from that point. I return to the top of the turn order and process all reactions. The entire volley of reactions, including the opening move by guard #4 and the first crossbow shot by bandit #2 goes like this:

Guard #4 moves up to Bandit #4
* triggers all bandit reactions, back to the top of the turn order *

Skip Guard #3, his trigger has not activated
Bandit #2 fires at Guard #2 (normal attack)
* triggers all guard reactions, back to the top of the turn order *

Guard #3 Dodges
Skip Bandit #2, he already used his reaction
Bandit #5 fires at Guard #5 (normal attack)
Guard #5 Dodges (too bad, bandit #5 already fired but the Dodge will last until the start of his next turn)
Bandit #4 fires at Guard #4 (disadvantage because guard #4 has closed to melee range)
Guard #2 Dodges
The Captain attacks the Bandit Leader (normal attack)
Guard #1 Dodges.
Bandit #3 fires at Guard #3 (disadvantage because guard #3 is dodging)
Bandit Leader moves away from the Captain (no OA because Captain already used his reaction)
Skip Guard #4, he already used his reaction.
Bandit #1 fires at Guard #1 (disadvantage because guard #1 is dodging)

At this point, all reactions have been used and we begin round 1. All the guards, except the captain and guard #4, are Dodging until the beginning of their turn.

--------------

Now, all of that is predicated on being able to set reactions before combat has started. That's a major question. Can you do that? The other assumption is that I'm determining whose reaction goes first based on the initiative order. I don't see rules for whose reaction goes first. Initiative order just seems logical. And last, this is all a part of round #1. After all of these reactions are done, we actually return to the top of the turn over to "resume" round 1.

So... is that all correct, or what do you think I have wrong?

[Asmotherion]

So, basically a ready action? :smalltongue:

[sir_argo]

So, basically a ready action? :smalltongue:

Well, no. There are two things in the example which I do not see in the PHB.


1. can you set a reaction trigger out of combat?

2. what is the order of resolving reactions if more than one is triggered at the same time?


Maybe I've missed a relevant section in a rule book.

[Arcangel4774]

So, basically a ready action? :smalltongue:

I think he's discussing what came up in a different thread: that making a readied action only available once combat starts breaks verisimilitude to too great an extent.

[sir_argo]

I think he's discussing what came up in a different thread: that making a readied action only available once combat starts breaks verisimilitude to too great an extent.

Oh crap... I just found the other thread. Let me go read that.

[Asmotherion]

Well, no. There are two things in the example which I do not see in the PHB.


1. can you set a reaction trigger out of combat?

2. what is the order of resolving reactions if more than one is triggered at the same time?


Maybe I've missed a relevant section in a rule book.

1. nothing ditrectly prevents you from doing so...

2. the last reaction to trigger would be the first to resolve and vice verca

[Laserlight]

The bandits already have their crossbows readied and pointed. SNIP Combat has not started.

I'd say combat HAS started, they just haven't started shooting yet. They have clearly defined targets and triggers (which is not the case in the "kick open the door and assault" situation on the other thread).

So you cycle through initiative with everyone saying "I still have my Readied Action" until we get to Guard 4, who has been checking his phone and doesn't realize the bandits have the drop on him.

If Guard4 already has his weapon in hand and is within range, he gets his attack off before anyone can react--reactions take place AFTER their trigger per PHB 193, the 2nd paragraph in "Ready". (Opportunity Attacks can be a bit weird about that, so we'll ignore that).

If he has to draw his weapon or move (ie, move from one map square to the next), the bandit(s) watching him can shoot after Guard4 draws or steps but before he does anything else; Guard 4 can then continue with his turn, if he survives.

You have two triggers: "Fire if any guard does anything other than stand still" and "Dodge if bandits fire". Assuming all the bandits are paying attention when Guard 4 moves--I'd make them roll Perception, because he might be on the other side of a wagon or they might be distracted--then they all fire. The order is not important because they've all preselected their targets. Then, after the fire is resolved, all the guards dodge--a bit late to help.

You could have both the bandits and the guards triggers be "if any of the guards try shenanigans, I dodge". In that case, I'm not aware of any RAW, but I'd have the triggering event happen, then everyone roll Perception (possibly with disadvantage for facing, lighting, etc), and resolve the reactions in PER order. Once we get done with that, Guard 4 finishes his turn and we continue with the initiative cycle as usual.

[bid]

Now, all of that is predicated on being able to set reactions before combat has started. That's a major question. Can you do that? The other assumption is that I'm determining whose reaction goes first based on the initiative order. I don't see rules for whose reaction goes first. Initiative order just seems logical. And last, this is all a part of round #1. After all of these reactions are done, we actually return to the top of the turn over to "resume" round 1.

So... is that all correct, or what do you think I have wrong?
There's no initiative order yet, since combat hasn't started.

You have to play out a first turn where everybody picks its readied action (including guard4), having the leaders speak while holding their readied action.

I think allowing guard4 a "reaction" is cheesy, his move should be part of his normal turn.

The rest pretty much happens the way you say it, but it's not round 1.

[coredump]

A few things come into play.

First, its quite possible that the person that 'starts' the fight, doesn't actually get to attack first. Maybe he starts to aim, or adjusts to shoot, or just gets that obvious gleam in his eye and starts to tense..... or heck, maybe he starts to attacks, but just fumbles it a bit....there are a lot of ways the fiction can match the dice rolls.

Second, its just like any other ability check, a DM can give advantage or disadvantage. In this case, perhaps the guy shooting gets advantage on the init check, the rest of the bandits get regular checks, and the targets get disadvantage.

[ad_hoc]

If everyone can ready an action outside of combat then you still need to see who can make reactions first.

So you're still using initiative.

It's far better to just use regular initiative and let people have full turns.

If instead you decide, in the scenario of a stand off, that someone gets to 'start combat' then you're just creating a situation where the first person to speak up gets to win initiative. Try doing that for an NPC and see how fast the the players cry foul.

Han shot first but Greedo was the aggressor. Han won initiative.

[djreynolds]

I believe you are talking about an ambush. The enemy should be allowed to use their passive perception.

Now if let's say your men will attack once something is exchanged, I might say the enemy be allowed a wisdom check (insight) to see if something is amiss. Maybe in this instance even a passive insight check, so as to ruin your plan.

[NorthernPhoenix]

In a situation like this, the way i'd do it (not RAW) is to have the person starting 'some **** roll initiative with only his immediate target. They both go, highest first, then everyone else rolls and combat proceeds normally.

[Malifice]

Imagine a simple set up... a group of bandits is facing off with a group of soldiers guarding a royal carriage. The bandits already have their crossbows readied and pointed. The guards are near the carriage and have no weapons drawn. The bandit leader and captain have both walked forward to parlay. The bandit leader is demanding the guards hand over any gold on the carriage or they will attack.

Combat has not started. There is no surprise. If you are not allowed to set reactions before combat, then something odd seems to happen. If either the guards or bandits decide to begin combat, we just roll initiative and proceed down the turn order. That's weird because if Guard #4 is the one who decides he's had enough and starts combat, but he rolls a lousy initiative (3), he ends up going darn near last even though he's the one who triggered the beginning of combat. Further, it would be really weird that any guards who won initiative over the bandits would literally draw their weapons, move and attack a bandit before the bandit could fire their crossbow... even though the bandit was clearly pointing the crossbow at him and waiting for him to move.

I don't see it in the rules, but I think it would be appropriate to allow a character to set a reaction trigger out of combat. In this example, everybody would have a trigger set because they're anticipating hostility could erupt at any second. If it does, Guard #4 decides to act, that will set off the bandits' reactions, which in turn will set off the guards' reactions. So in what order do we process all of these? There does not appear to be a rule on whose reaction gets processed first. I think it is fair to use the initiative turn order.

With that in mind, I have an example. All of the bandits have a trigger to fire if any guard does anything other than stand still. The guards all set their reactions to be, if any of the bandits fire, I Dodge, except the captain who is standing within 5' of the bandit leader. The captain sets a reaction to attack the bandit leader with whatever he had in his hand (shield, fist, maybe he has a spear which is always in hand). The bandit leader sets his reaction to move away if any guard moves or attacks. For the sake of this example, everybody will target their numerical equivalent: bandit #1 goes up against guard #1; guard #3 targets bandit #3; etc. The bandit leader and captain target each other.

So, I'm going to take my hand at how I think this would go and I'm asking for you to point out where I have it wrong.

As stated, Guard #4 decides he's had enough and is going to attack. If I count this as a normal action, then everybody else gets their reactions after he moves. I find that weird. To me, he is using his reaction (if nobody has done something after 10 seconds, I charge). Well the 10 seconds lapsed and ge charges bandit #4. Since this counts as the beginning of combat, everyone rolls initiative and the chart is set. There is no surprise:

(22) Guard #3
(21) Bandit #2
(18) Bandit #5
(17) Guard #5
(16) Bandit #4
(14) Guard #2
(13) Captain
(11) Guard #1
(8) Bandit #3
(4) Bandit Leader
(3) Guard #4 <-- this guy starts it
(1) Bandit #1

Everyone has reactions set, so I would resolve them using the same turn order determined by initiative. We skip all the way down the chart to Guard #4, who moves up to bandit #4 but can't attack because this is his reaction. This does not set off any of his fellow guards' reactions, but it does set off all of the bandits' reactions. I can't just continue from that point--lots of bandit reactions just went off. So I return to the top of the initiative order to determine which bandit's reaction goes first, which is bandit #2. His reaction goes off and he fires at guard #2. This triggers all the guards who had set a reaction to Dodge. Again, I don't think it is right to just continue from that point. I return to the top of the turn order and process all reactions. The entire volley of reactions, including the opening move by guard #4 and the first crossbow shot by bandit #2 goes like this:

Guard #4 moves up to Bandit #4
* triggers all bandit reactions, back to the top of the turn order *

Skip Guard #3, his trigger has not activated
Bandit #2 fires at Guard #2 (normal attack)
* triggers all guard reactions, back to the top of the turn order *

Guard #3 Dodges
Skip Bandit #2, he already used his reaction
Bandit #5 fires at Guard #5 (normal attack)
Guard #5 Dodges (too bad, bandit #5 already fired but the Dodge will last until the start of his next turn)
Bandit #4 fires at Guard #4 (disadvantage because guard #4 has closed to melee range)
Guard #2 Dodges
The Captain attacks the Bandit Leader (normal attack)
Guard #1 Dodges.
Bandit #3 fires at Guard #3 (disadvantage because guard #3 is dodging)
Bandit Leader moves away from the Captain (no OA because Captain already used his reaction)
Skip Guard #4, he already used his reaction.
Bandit #1 fires at Guard #1 (disadvantage because guard #1 is dodging)

At this point, all reactions have been used and we begin round 1. All the guards, except the captain and guard #4, are Dodging until the beginning of their turn.

--------------

Now, all of that is predicated on being able to set reactions before combat has started. That's a major question. Can you do that? The other assumption is that I'm determining whose reaction goes first based on the initiative order. I don't see rules for whose reaction goes first. Initiative order just seems logical. And last, this is all a part of round #1. After all of these reactions are done, we actually return to the top of the turn over to "resume" round 1.

So... is that all correct, or what do you think I have wrong?

I see zero reason to resolve this outside of initiative order when (if) hostilites break out.

[Kane0]

How my table handles it:
- multiple reactions are handled in inititative order
- If everybody or nobody is readied, start on the initiating creature's turn.

Doing it this way allows for those swat-team style room entries while still allowing those on the other side to respond (sometimes).

[Malifice]

How my table handles it:
- multiple reactions are handled in inititative order
- If everybody or nobody is readied, start on the initiating creature's turn.

Doing it this way allows for those swat-team style room entries while still allowing those on the other side to respond (sometimes).

SWAT team room entries rely on the element of surprise.

Can someone give me an example of when the normal rules for turns inside of the combat sequence, and surprise narratively dont work?

[MasterMercury]

At my table, the guard gets an action to throw a dagger or something, and then the action begins. We are talking about split seconds here. The bandits may be ready to attack, but the guard has a second before he's a pincushion.
After that, I'd roll initiative for the party, but I'd just put the bandits before the guards. As the DM, I can make some calls like that, I feel.

[Malifice]

At my table, the guard gets an action to throw a dagger or something, and then the action begins. We are talking about split seconds here. The bandits may be ready to attack, but the guard has a second before he's a pincushion.
After that, I'd roll initiative for the party, but I'd just put the bandits before the guards. As the DM, I can make some calls like that, I feel.

Not my cup of tea.

Everyone is ready to attack. Everyone is aware of each other. Once a hostile action is declared (a guard shoots, a dude decidres to charge and swings his sword), I call for initiative.

No combat actions outside of initiative. Combat only occurs in turn order determined by initiative.

The initiative check determines the reaction speed of those in the battle. It determines if you can react fast enough to shoot the charging guard before he gets to you, or cross the 30' needed to get there in time and stab the archer before he gets his shot off.

The transition from narrative time to combat sequence is an abstraction within an abstraction.

[djreynolds]

How do you handle ambushes?

Jungles of Vietnam, a LARP is slugging through the jungle. The point man is chopping through brush and the LT has the map upside down.... but the SGT Rock get a tingle down his spine. DM says you sense something. (the DM had used SGT Rock's passive perception vs the ambusher's stealth)

The SGT tries to halt the platoon... but it is too late for the point man and LT and they are in the kill zone (they had failed they're passive checks)

I have to think there is a surprise round in there for the enemy vs any member of the squad who fails their passive perception check and is in the kill zone vs the enemy's stealth/ hiding check and they do not get to act. And squad members in the back out of the kill zone who fail their checks are stuck standing there

Now just because the enemy is going to fire on any of the GIs as they enter the kill zone, they are not robots or traps that just happen. They must see the targets, and then react. Thus now we roll initiative and I would grant perhaps advantage to the ambushers



But the OP's example is more of a plan... that you all have gone through and rehearsed or have prior experience with

IMO the bandits.... most of them must use a perception check to see if they noticed the cue and IMO either a sleight of hand check so some of the guards do not see that dagger for a toss.....

or deception check, as they are playing it cool

Now the guards is tricky, because some are soaking it all in... say the bowman on the wagon he's like an overwatch he rolls perception

But the guard talking with the bandit and perhaps the other guards next to him they are rolling insight checks

These are just examples, and this is fun, very fun. A DM can be tricky and say I think in this instance bandit 2 has to roll an intelligence to check to see if he remembers, and guard 7, the rookie, he has to roll and intelligence check because he needs to actively look. For me players debating what skill vs what skill is fun.

Once this is done, then we get to see who gets to roll initiative in this first round out of the bandits and guards.

And that guard sitting on the drivers bench on the wagon, picking his nose, well he might die

[Malifice]

How do you handle ambushes?

With the rules for surprise.

A Friendly patrol (the PCs) are walking through the jungle, ready for combat, AR 15's at the ready. They walk past a hidden (Stealth check 15) enemy patrol. No-one in the PCs patrol has a passive perception over 15.

The enemy mercs inform the DM they want to light up the good guys with machine gun fire.

The DM turns to the good guy patrol and states: "As you walk along the jungle trail, bursts of machine gun fire come from all around. Roll initiative; you're all surprised on round one."

Initiative is now rolled before anything else happens or any attacks are resolved. The PCs all get scores of 10. The enemy mercs in ambush all get scores of 9.

On round one, turns are taken in order. The PC patrol goes first but as it is surprised it can take no movement or actions, and reactions only after its turn ends. The bad guys go next and resolve that machine gun fire and mow them down with no mercy.

With advantage due to being hidden no less.

If the bad guys rolled better on initiative than the PCs they will get 2 turns in a row (on round 1 and 2) before the PCs can take any actions at all.

The rules handle surprise, ambushes, ready actions, reactions and everything else just fine.

[djreynolds]

With the rules for surprise.

A Friendly patrol (the PCs) are walking through the jungle, ready for combat, AR 15's at the ready. They walk past a hidden (Stealth check 15) enemy patrol. No-one in the PCs patrol has a passive perception over 15.

The enemy mercs inform the DM they want to light up the good guys with machine gun fire.

The DM turns to the good guy patrol and states: "As you walk along the jungle trail, bursts of machine gun fire come from all around. Roll initiative; you're all surprised on round one."

Initiative is now rolled before anything else happens or any attacks are resolved. The PCs all get scores of 10. The enemy mercs in ambush all get scores of 9.

On round one, turns are taken in order. The PC patrol goes first but as it is surprised it can take no movement or actions, and reactions only after its turn ends. The bad guys go next and resolve that machine gun fire and mow them down with no mercy.

With advantage due to being hidden no less.

If the bad guys rolled better on initiative than the PCs they will get 2 turns in a row (on round 1 and 2) before the PCs can take any actions at all.

The rules handle surprise, ambushes, ready actions, reactions and everything else just fine.

That's good, so regardless everyone rolls initiative.

You may roll high but might not be able to do anything,

So a caster could at then end of his turn throw up the shield spell... or is that spell specific to something causing it.

Anyhow I like it.

Now what about the OPs situation where it is a stand-off. Everyone is alert to danger.

Would you use my scenario of skill vs skill checks and then everyone rolls initiative?

[Malifice]

Now what about the OPs situation where it is a stand-off. Everyone is alert to danger.

Would you use my scenario of skill vs skill checks and then everyone rolls initiative?

The standard rules for initiative handle the 'stand off' just fine.

The person who gets to go first is the person who wins the opposed dexterity (initiative) check.

[djreynolds]

The standard rules for initiative handle the 'stand off' just fine.

The person who gets to go first is the person who wins the opposed dexterity (initiative) check.

You know I have always wanted to a Reservoir Dog's style stand off, or even an Old West feel.

Who's gonna move first? I just like the feel of skill vs skill, you guess wrong on your insight check... and fight breaks out, but if you don't you could die.

And people say 5E is boring... you have all these nuances and place you can go to.

I can definitely see initiative not always being dex vs dex is some situations or at least other skills providing advantage.

[Potato_Priest]

technically, the bandits could shoot before the guards attack if they ready the action "I shoot when any guard starts to move." Without the starts, they might end up shooting in melee range, since reactions occur after their trigger. Wording it this way is entirely legal, it's even discussed in a podcast by the wotc team.

[Potato_Priest]

The standard rules for initiative handle the 'stand off' just fine.

The person who gets to go first is the person who wins the opposed dexterity (initiative) check.

Standard rolls for initiative are acceptable in a wild west stand off with both parties' guns sheathed or out.

When one group has ranged weapons loaded and aimed, and the other has melee weapons sheathed and is out of range, it seems unfair not to somehow grant the ranged party a shot before the melee group can close in, particularly when they're actively preparing for funny business.

[Tanarii]

Standard rolls for initiative are acceptable in a wild west stand off with both parties' guns sheathed or out.

When one group has ranged weapons loaded and aimed, and the other has melee weapons sheathed and is out of range, it seems unfair not to somehow grant the ranged party a shot before the melee group can close in, particularly when they're actively preparing for funny business.
Give people with a loaded weapon pointed at an enemy advantage on the initiative roll. Granting Advantage on a roll (for reasons) is explicitly within the DM's purview. Edit: As is disadvantage. If you feel the weapon situation may make the people with loaded weapons pointed at them hesitate, give them disadvantage as well. If someone is quick enough to win initiative despite having disadvantage when the enemy has advantage, they're just that good. Let them react first.

[Potato_Priest]

Give people with a loaded weapon pointed at an enemy advantage on the initiative roll. Granting Advantage on a roll (for reasons) is explicitly within the DM's purview. Edit: As is disadvantage. If you feel the weapon situation may make the people with loaded weapons pointed at them hesitate, give them disadvantage as well. If someone is quick enough to win initiative despite having disadvantage when the enemy has advantage, they're just that good. Let them react first.

That's a good option as well. I like it.

[BW022]

You can't ready actions outside of combat.

You have two options...

First, you immediately put everyone into initiative -- before the leaders start talking. You put everyone in initiative, and you assume that everyone is readying actions -- except the leaders who are moving and talking. As each person's turn comes up, they could move, re-ready their action, etc. Presumably, everyone is readying until someone attacks.

Second, you don't go into combat until someone starts to attack. You then roll for initiative and everyone goes in that order.

In practice the two are the same... everyone will be going in their initiative order. All initiatives happen within six seconds and are a simulation of people acting simultaneously. You just have to picture it that way. Personally, the first option slows things down too much. Far better to assume that people are moving a bit, drawing weapons, getting ready, looking around the bushes, etc. as the two talk... than put everyone in initiative and go through asking everyone to ready over-and-over for three rounds until something happens. It also tends to trigger combat -- or at least rash actions.

I would always use the second, until players start taking obscene actions which would otherwise trigger combat or which others would react. Someone starts uncovering a ballista, tries moving into the bushes, gets too close, casts a summoning spell, etc. Normally, I'd just ask the group "What are you doing?" If anything would trigger combat, I'll roll for initiative. The initiative results might prevent that character from completing that action. Yes... it is highly likely (with enough folks in initiative) that the action won't happen. For example, the player declares they are going to cast a spell. Initiative, they get a 3, lots of arrows, people, swords, etc. happen prior to them going, and then they can decide not to bother. I.e. they started waving their hands but that triggered lots of arrows, bolts, horses bolting, other spells being cast, etc. Or... it is possible that others may ready to see if the spell hurts someone (assuming they are willing to wait to see the effect of the spell). Or... the player rolls an 18 and maybe that spell gets off before everyone else wasn't paying enough attention and the spell gets cast prior to them aiming their bow, firing their crossbow, the horses bolting, etc.

[Squiddish]

You can't ready actions outside of combat.



Citation, please?

We allow readied actions out of combat to show a sort of jumpiness.

[Malifice]

Citation, please?

It doesnt work that way. You need to find proof you can.

The 'ready' action exists only to deal with the abstracted turn based nature of combat rounds/ turns.

Outside of combat sequencing (in normal narrative time) 'turns' do not exist. You cant ready an action on your turn outside of combat, because you dont get turns outside of combat.

The game assumes that 'All combatants are ready to fight and alert to danger' at all relevant times. For the times they are not alert and ready, there are the surprise rules.


We allow readied actions out of combat to show a sort of jumpiness.

You shouldnt because its a silly rule, and is not needed in the rules as written. If you want to show 'jumpiness' take the Feat that grants you +5 to Initiative, and pump your Dex through the roof.

[Ursus the Grim]

Citation, please?

We allow readied actions out of combat to show a sort of jumpiness.

The Ready action is specifically a Combat rule. As are most Actions, tbh.



Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn, which lets you act using your reaction before the start of your next turn.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples include “If the Cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the Goblin steps next to me, I move away.”

When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round.

If there's no initiative, there's no turns. There's no Ready. Note that their examples are obviously combat situations with a clear and present threat. Not 'if a dog jumps through that window, I shoot it in the face.'

And I know people like to disregard him when they disagree, but Jeremy Crawford (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/15/players-readying-actions-outside-combat/) seems to agree with that interpretation.

[Dalebert]

When someone declares a readied action out of combat, that's fine. They can do that. When it actually goes off will depend on surprise and initiative which still must be determined. Otherwise it's just "I'm preparing so that I will automatically get surprise and auto-roll the highest initiative." and that obviously makes no sense. That's not free.

In the situation you described, it sounds like the bandits got a surprise round and they used it to ready actions to fire. That relies on every single one of them being completely hidden until the first round of combat. Their face was presumably hidden also or the guards would already be on the alert when they saw a guy standing in the road or even by the road. That's their job--to treat any stranger as a threat until determined otherwise. The face presumably used his first round action during surprise to come out of hiding and issue threats.

I would posit that readying attack actions IS a combat action that relies on surprise to ensure you do it before the enemy can be ready to respond. I would expect the guards to draw weapons the moment they saw a stranger on the road or in the trees or whatever.

Point is, getting a surprise round is not automatic. You have to work for it. Your entire party must be stealthy. Otherwise enemies go on the alert and initiative continues normally. If you surprise them, you can use your first round action to ready an action.

[RickAllison]

I have a question for those who resolve the ambushes with only initiative. It works in almost every case, but specifically how do you deal when you have combatants with Alert or the magic item that prevents surprise, won initiative, but who failed their Perception? No danger is visible to them, but they know initiative has been rolled and thus they are being attacked.

[mephnick]

I have a question for those who resolve the ambushes with only initiative. It works in almost every case, but specifically how do you deal when you have combatants with Alert or the magic item that prevents surprise, won initiative, but who failed their Perception? No danger is visible to them, but they know initiative has been rolled and thus they are being attacked.

Theyd be warned by their senses that something is going down, but don't know what. So their action if they win initiatve would be a Search action to figure out why their hair is on end, a dodge to defend, a dash to get out of there, etc. Just because you aren't surprised doesn't give you perfect knowledge. Requires the DM and PCs to act fairly and not act on meta knowledge of course.

[Tanarii]

I have a question for those who resolve the ambushes with only initiative. It works in almost every case, but specifically how do you deal when you have combatants with Alert or the magic item that prevents surprise, won initiative, but who failed their Perception? No danger is visible to them, but they know initiative has been rolled and thus they are being attacked.

Depends if the attackers / ambushes are doing anything to give away their position by the very act of attacking. In addition, the stealth check from surprise doesn't also (always) need to be considered a Hide check.

But if so, the surprised but not surprised person can always declare a Ready action in response to their 6th sense (or whatever) going off.

[Kane0]

Out of curiosity, how would people handle this?

A party of adventurers are storming an enemy stronghold, clearing rooms of goblinoids as they go. One of the fights is close to a chamber housing a squad of hobgoblins, who upon hearing what is transpiring gather their weapons and flip some tables for cover, readying their crossbows at the entryway.
The adventurers finish butchering the current encounter and hear the tables being flipped, so now they are also alert to the presense of potential enemies in the next room. They postpone looting the corpses for the moment and gather themselves for a rush through the door, only pausing long enough to check that it isnt trapped or locked. The rogue readies to throw a vial of something nasty, the wizard a fireball and the cleric a heal for the fighter, who is the designated doorman.

Neither side is surprised, and multiple creatures have actions ready for the same trigger (when the door opens). What do?


Everyone rolls initiative, and it ticks around until the fighter's turn since everyone else is readying.
As soon as the fighter opens the door everyone's reactions start flying, so we resolve those in initiative order. Then the fighter can make the rest of his turn and combat proceeeds normally.

[Malifice]

Out of curiosity, how would people handle this?

A party of adventurers are storming an enemy stronghold, clearing rooms of goblinoids as they go. One of the fights is close to a chamber housing a squad of hobgoblins, who upon hearing what is transpiring gather their weapons and flip some tables for cover, readying their crossbows at the entryway.
The adventurers finish butchering the current encounter and hear the tables being flipped, so now they are also alert to the presense of potential enemies in the next room. They postpone looting the corpses for the moment and gather themselves for a rush through the door, only pausing long enough to check that it isnt trapped or locked. The rogue readies to throw a vial of something nasty, the wizard a fireball and the cleric a heal for the fighter, who is the designated doorman.

Neither side is surprised, and multiple creatures have actions ready for the same trigger (when the door opens). What do?


Everyone rolls initiative, and it ticks around until the fighter's turn since everyone else is readying.
As soon as the fighter opens the door everyone's reactions start flying, so we resolve those in initiative order. Then the fighter can make the rest of his turn and combat proceeeds normally.


Roll initiative.

[Kane0]

So if the fighter goes first, nobody is ready for what they prepared for?

[Malifice]

So if the fighter goes first, nobody is ready for what they prepared for?

They're ready. But the fighter beat them to the draw. By virtue of his superior reflexes.

Remember- actions in combat are simultaneous despite what the stop start turn based combat round sequencing shows. Everyone isn't sitting around like statues while the fighter moves 30 and attacks. They're shooting, blasting and stabbing all at the same time.

In this case the fighter's quick reflexes (his victory in an opposed Dex check called - initiative) give him the edge.

If he manages to cross the ground and take a swing at the Hobgoblins before their shots are resolved, they're taken aback by the ferocity and audacity of this lightning fast killing machine storming into the room like a madman.

[Orion3T]

They're ready. But the fighter beat them to the draw. By virtue of his superior reflexes.

Remember- actions in combat are simultaneous despite what the stop start turn based combat round sequencing shows. Everyone isn't sitting around like statues while the fighter moves 30 and attacks. They're shooting, blasting and stabbing all at the same time.

In this case the fighter's quick reflexes (his victory in an opposed Dex check called - initiative) give him the edge.

If he manages to cross the ground and take a swing at the Hobgoblins before their shots are resolved, they're taken aback by the ferocity and audacity of this lightning fast killing machine storming into the room like a madman.

Somewhat counter intuitively, rolling lower initiative than the fighter means they get to take full turns rather than having to use their reactions to attack through the door.

Assuming the only difference is that in one case the fighter goes first and in the other he goes last, in the former case everyone resolves their turns as normal. In the latter case everyone else will be using their reaction in order to perform their attack, because on their actual turn they took ready actions.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - they do get to take another turn before the fighter gets their 2nd turn. If the fighter went first then the others would not get to take their next turn until after the fighter took their 2nd turn.

So, if we say the goblins all rolled well but the fighter went first out of the PCs, then the goblins have to use their reactions in order to attack in the first combat round, while the PCs will get to take full turns. However, if they survive to the 2nd round they will get to attack before the PCs. If it were the other way around th goblins would get to attack and take reactions but the PCs would get their 2nd turns before the goblins could attack twice.

Overall, that's all pretty balanced. It's still better to win initiative, but it's tempered somewhat because it's not a full turn. Of course the ideal situation for the PCs is for the fighter to get highest initiative, then all the PCs next, and goblins last. A worse case is the fighter goes first, then goblins, then PCs. Then the goblins will get a whole round to pelt and batter the poor fighter, who in all likelihood has charged in through the door before his allies were completely prepared. If he's lucky he might drop one or two before they can react. Goblins-Fighter-PCs is also not very good, they will get to attack him as he's standing in the open doorway. However they will use their reactions to do it (not sure if goblins have anything useful they can do with reactions though, so this might not be a problem for them).

[Orion3T]

One thing to add - if the PCs use ready actions to attack, not only will they not get reactions but they will not get to use their Extra Attack features, if any. Extra Attack only works if you attack on your turn, not as a reaction during another combatant's turn.

So there's definitely a trade-off if the PCs roll higher initiative than the fighter; they will need to ready, and therefore will only get a single attack each. Also, dual weilders won't get their offhand attacks, and any casters readying spells might end up wasting the slot if the fighter fails to bash the door in.

The PCs definitely want the fighter to take her turn first, then the other PCs, then the goblins. That would represent a perfectly coordinated breach on behalf of the PCs.

[Malifice]

Somewhat counter intuitively, rolling lower initiative than the fighter means they get to take full turns rather than having to use their reactions to attack through the door.

Assuming the only difference is that in one case the fighter goes first and in the other he goes last, in the former case everyone resolves their turns as normal. In the latter case everyone else will be using their reaction in order to perform their attack, because on their actual turn they took ready actions.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - they do get to take another turn before the fighter gets their 2nd turn. If the fighter went first then the others would not get to take their next turn until after the fighter took their 2nd turn.

So, if we say the goblins all rolled well but the fighter went first out of the PCs, then the goblins have to use their reactions in order to attack in the first combat round, while the PCs will get to take full turns. However, if they survive to the 2nd round they will get to attack before the PCs. If it were the other way around th goblins would get to attack and take reactions but the PCs would get their 2nd turns before the goblins could attack twice.

Overall, that's all pretty balanced. It's still better to win initiative, but it's tempered somewhat because it's not a full turn. Of course the ideal situation for the PCs is for the fighter to get highest initiative, then all the PCs next, and goblins last. A worse case is the fighter goes first, then goblins, then PCs. Then the goblins will get a whole round to pelt and batter the poor fighter, who in all likelihood has charged in through the door before his allies were completely prepared. If he's lucky he might drop one or two before they can react. Goblins-Fighter-PCs is also not very good, they will get to attack him as he's standing in the open doorway. However they will use their reactions to do it (not sure if goblins have anything useful they can do with reactions though, so this might not be a problem for them).

No they won't be using reactions to make any attacks.

Combat is declared by the dungeon Master when the door is opened and all creatures can see each other. At this point initiative is rolled and actions happen in turn order.

Seeing as initiative hasn't been called for before the door is opened there can be no readied action before this happens.

[Malifice]

I suppose in this situation the dungeon Master could call for initiative the instant both sides are aware of each other (both sides in the example cited can hear each other through the door).

In that case you could argue that readied actions could be taken before the door is opened, by creatures when their turn comes around in initiative order.

[Kane0]

Cool, so we're on the same page.
That just leaves one question: if multiple creatures ready using the same trigger, which goes first?
We use initiative order, but you could also rule whichever readied first.

[Dalebert]

A readied action is held until your turn in the initiative comes up or the trigger happens; whichever comes first. Readied actions can happen simultaneously off the same trigger, e.g. "as soon as the door opens, I'm firing at who opened it". You could have two archers both fire at the same time and kill each other simultaneously.

So if you have two entire parties that are holding their actions for something to happen, and that even doesn't happen, then their readied action doesn't go off. Their turn comes up and they then decide what they want to do with their new action. Any spells that were readied are lost, the spell slot expended for nothing.

It seems a lot of the confusion over how to handle certain situations comes from not understanding how initiative, surprise, and readied actions work. If you re-read those sections and handle them exactly as described, these situations are fairly easily worked out.

[Tanarii]

Out of curiosity, how would people handle this?

A party of adventurers are storming an enemy stronghold, clearing rooms of goblinoids as they go. One of the fights is close to a chamber housing a squad of hobgoblins, who upon hearing what is transpiring gather their weapons and flip some tables for cover, readying their crossbows at the entryway.
The adventurers finish butchering the current encounter and hear the tables being flipped, so now they are also alert to the presense of potential enemies in the next room. They postpone looting the corpses for the moment and gather themselves for a rush through the door, only pausing long enough to check that it isnt trapped or locked. The rogue readies to throw a vial of something nasty, the wizard a fireball and the cleric a heal for the fighter, who is the designated doorman.

Neither side is surprised, and multiple creatures have actions ready for the same trigger (when the door opens). What do?


Everyone rolls initiative, and it ticks around until the fighter's turn since everyone else is readying.
As soon as the fighter opens the door everyone's reactions start flying, so we resolve those in initiative order. Then the fighter can make the rest of his turn and combat proceeeds normally.

Fighter opens door. Roll initiative. Everyone acts in initiative order. They can declare a Ready action if they want to hold their turn, when their turn comes up.

This is one situation where I wouldn't start the fight with the Fighter and other front-rank (ie using marching order) PCs inside the door when initiative is rolled.

Edit: BTW the Fighter rolls initiative too. And acts on their initiative as usual. There is no 'after the fighter' or 'before the fighter'. The fighter's action triggers the start of combat, surprise can't happen, everyone acts normally in initiative order, including the Fighter.

Edit2: I'm also assuming the Fighter isn't stupid enough in this situation to open the door while standing in the empty doorway blocking the doorway. The Fighter's starting position should be off to one side.

[Dalebert]

Strictly speaking, everyone's held actions could go off simultaneously. The moment both parties are aware of each other and start taking actions, even ready actions, you can consider combat to have started. Now whoever opens the door, it's their turn in the initiative order. Anyone with an action readied for the door opening, including hobgoblins with crossbows aimed at the door, their actions all go off simultaneously. Then you continue down the initiative order. If the fighter doesn't open the door quickly enough, i.e. before the casters have their next turns, then their spells fizzle because they readied too soon.

[ProphetSword]

As stated, Guard #4 decides he's had enough and is going to attack. If I count this as a normal action, then everybody else gets their reactions after he moves. I find that weird. To me, he is using his reaction (if nobody has done something after 10 seconds, I charge). Well the 10 seconds lapsed and ge charges bandit #4. Since this counts as the beginning of combat, everyone rolls initiative and the chart is set. There is no surprise:

(22) Guard #3
(21) Bandit #2
(18) Bandit #5
(17) Guard #5
(16) Bandit #4
(14) Guard #2
(13) Captain
(11) Guard #1
(8) Bandit #3
(4) Bandit Leader
(3) Guard #4 <-- this guy starts it
(1) Bandit #1



I fail to see how this can't be resolved using regular combat rules, and why you can't wrap your mind around it. "Readying" in roleplaying terms isn't "readying and action" in mechanical terms. You can say you're ready to act, but you may not get to act before things happen if your initiative is low.

I'll use blue for the narrative and red for the mechanics to show how this might play out:

"Guard #4, having had enough of the nonsense pulls his weapon and begins to move toward the enemy."

[Roll For Initiative as combat has begun]

(22) Guard #3:
Having noticed his friend reaching for his weapon and beginning to move, follows suit and draws his weapon. He rushes toward one of the bandits and attacks. He misses.
[Draw weapon, move, attack Bandit #3]

(21) Bandit #2
Realizing that the guards are moving, fires off a shot at Guard #2 and kills him.
[Attack Guard #2, deal damage, pass on the move]

(18) Bandit #5
Realizing that things have gone sideways, fires a shot off at Guard #5, but misses. He then uses his move to duck behind cover.
[Attack Guard #5, move]

(17) Guard #5
Sidestepping an arrow shot at him by Bandit #5, pulls his weapon and moves toward where the Bandit moved, but can't reach him this turn.
[Draw weapon, move]

(16) Bandit #4
Seeing Guard #4 moving toward him, he fires off a shot, but misses. He decides to retreat a little.
[Attack Guard #4, move]

(14) Guard #2
Caught unaware, Guard #2 only just began to realize that people were moving when an arrow struck him in the head and killed him instantly.
[ Guard #2 is removed from initiative]

(13) Captain
Seeing the chaos around him, the Captain punches the Bandit Leader in the face and connects. He deals damage.
[Attack Bandit Leader, deal damage]

(11) Guard #1
Guard #1 moves for cover, hoping to get out of the line of fire of the arrows raining down upon the area. He ducks behind cover and prepares to attack any enemy that follows him.
[m ove, Ready an action on approach]

(8) Bandit #3
Bandit #3 had hoped to get the drop on Guard #3, but he was too fast. With an enemy in his face, he draws a melee weapon and holds his ground.
[Drop weapon, draw weapon]

(4) Bandit Leader
The Bandit Leader gets punched in the face and then attempts to flee from the Captain. He is hit while doing so.
[move - provoking Opportunity Attack from Captain, taking damage]

(3) Guard #4 <-- this guy starts it
Seeing that others are following him into action, he moves as quickly as his legs can carry him toward Bandit #4.
[Dash, move]

(1) Bandit #1
Having lost his target (Guard #1), who ducked behind cover before he could aim, Bandit #1 instead fires at the Captain, but misses. He then moves.
[Attack, move]


This example clearly shows that Guard #4 started the mess in the narrative but he wasn't the first to act, mechanically. It could have just as easily been that he was killed as he started to move, just as what happened to Guard #2. Just using regular combat, you can still play out a tense situation as though everyone was "ready," but with the benefit that they aren't using their reactions. I mean, players can say they're preparing to do something, but it doesn't mean they're actually "readying an action" in the term of taking an action. Before combat starts, they're just roleplaying and stating intent.

Setting up the right narrative is half the battle, I think, when it comes to making your players understand how this works.

[sir_argo]

I fail to see how this can't be resolved using regular combat rules, and why you can't wrap your mind around it.

Because using regular combat results in odd results in some circumstances. It's why I asked the question in the first place. One of my original questions was, can you set a Ready action out of combat. After reading the various responses, I believe you can. Actions, bonus actions, reactions, movement, etc. are all described in the section titled "Actions in Combat". Some of the responders to this thread infer that means they can only be done in combat. I don't believe that's true. I can say with 100% certainty that my wizard can cast Levitate (an action) out of combat, or Expeditious Retreat (bonus action) or Shield (reaction). A Ranger can shoot a flaming arrow at a house. A Druid can change shape. I reject the notion that you can only do these actions in combat. There is no action you cannot also perform out of combat.

I believe this also applies to the Ready action.

I had posted a couple examples that the regular combat order didn't seem to handle well. The stand off example I posted in the OP is one that we could duplicate in real life. I'll hold a super soaker 30ft from you and point it at you, ready to fire. You attempt to draw a foam sword, charge me and swing before I can pull the trigger. We'll do this test 100 times. 100 times, I'll fire before you reach me. So the notion of just roll initiative doesn't appear to work well. It simply doesn't take into account when someone is standing there with a readied action, waiting for you to make a move. I do like the person who posted that in my example, combat had actually already started, just nobody is acting yet. I think that resolves my example well. Working it that way, the Ready action is being set in combat, not before.

[DanyBallon]

Because using regular combat results in odd results in some circumstances. It's why I asked the question in the first place. One of my original questions was, can you set a Ready action out of combat. After reading the various responses, I believe you can. Actions, bonus actions, reactions, movement, etc. are all described in the section titled "Actions in Combat". Some of the responders to this thread infer that means they can only be done in combat. I don't believe that's true. I can say with 100% certainty that my wizard can cast Levitate (an action) out of combat, or Expeditious Retreat (bonus action) or Shield (reaction). A Ranger can shoot a flaming arrow at a house. A Druid can change shape. I reject the notion that you can only do these actions in combat. There is no action you cannot also perform out of combat.

I believe this also applies to the Ready action.

I had posted a couple examples that the regular combat order didn't seem to handle well. The stand off example I posted in the OP is one that we could duplicate in real life. I'll hold a super soaker 50ft from you and point it at you, ready to fire. You attempt to draw a foam sword, charge me and swing before I can pull the trigger. We'll do this test 100 times. 100 times, I'll fire before you reach me. So the notion of just roll initiative doesn't appear to work well. It simply doesn't take into account when someone is standing there with a readied action, waiting for you to make a move. I do like the person who posted that in my example, combat had actually already started, just nobody is acting yet. I think that resolves my example well. Working it that way, the Ready action is being set in combat, not before.

In your supersoaker example, your opponent might win initiative, and will have to move and take the dash action before attacking, so your 100% right that you will be able to shoot him before he can land a hit.

If he was 25ft from you and win initiative you may end up being surprised and he may reach you before you can realised that he draw his sword. You need to remember that a round last 6 sec, in those six second, your opponent draw, move 30 ft, attack you, then you riposte and can move 30ft as well. Also when moving you are not necessarily moving in a straight line you can side step as you move forward without taking a full 5 ft step sideways

[sir_argo]

In your supersoaker example, your opponent might win initiative, and will have to move and take the dash action before attacking

Ugh... sorry, was thinking about my character that has a 50ft movement. I should have said 30ft away. I'll still fire first before he gets to me every time. I'll edit my post to correct the distance.

[Kane0]

In your supersoaker example, your opponent might win initiative, and will have to move and take the dash action before attacking, so your 100% right that you will be able to shoot him before he can land a hit.

If he was 25ft from you and win initiative you may end up being surprised and he may reach you before you can realised that he draw his sword. You need to remember that a round last 6 sec, in those six second, your opponent draw, move 30 ft, attack you, then you riposte and can move 30ft as well. Also when moving you are not necessarily moving in a straight line you can side step as you move forward without taking a full 5 ft step sideways

Except he isn't surprised. He's ready for you before you do anything. Same problem I had above.
I think the solution is to stop thinking of combat and not-combat as two different states. Thats where the disconnect between narriative action and mechanical action is created.

[DanyBallon]

Except he isn't surprised. He's ready for you before you do anything. Same problem I had above.
I think the solution is to stop thinking of combat and not-combat as two different states. Thats where the disconnect between narriative action and mechanical action is created.

When someone acts before you in the initiative order, you are caught off-guard even if you are not surprised, otherwise you would have acted first.

In his example, while both are aware of the others and ready for any sudden move. A quick dash from your opponent will require you to react fast, and when dashing toward you, he isn't moving in a straight line (remember that each "square" is 5ft wide) so you have to think and adjust your aim, by the time you react, he is in your face. A full round, which consist of all creatures, last 6 second, you and your opponent turn last less than this.

[Orion3T]

Combat is declared by the dungeon Master when the door is opened and all creatures can see each other. At this point initiative is rolled and actions happen in turn order.

That would be a valid way to do it and I think the end result would be not that different. However I think as you mention in your subsequent post, the DM can decide when combat actually starts (and therefore call for initiative) whenever they like, including when the 2 groups are first aware of each other's presence. Or they could keep initiative order from the previous fight and add the new group in.

In the scenario described, the party were already in combat with the first group and have an initiative order. I'd probably roll for the new group and keep the party initiatives rolling.

I do agree that isn't the only way though - simply calling for an initiative roll after the door is opened does work. It is just that some people find it odd that the action narrated might never actually happen in some circumstances. For example, something simpler:

I am negotiating with an NPC, and showing no sign of hostility. I'm not getting anywhere and decide to cast hold on them.

- Roll initiative: NPC goes first.
- NPC stabs me in the chest with a critical and kills me.
- I'm dead.

I can see why some people would not be happy with this outcome. In that case the DM has the freedom to say the NPC didn't intent to initiate anything, but are ready to attack if they think the PC is going to do something. If they are ready for my PC to reach for her rapier, that won't help them. If they noticed she's a caster and that she uses her ring as a focus, they might ready an action for if I start speaking any unusual words that could be an attempt to cast a spell.

Essentially this allows the DM to alter their course of action depending whether they were expecting my Sorc to take the action she did or not. If they were watching for something she didn't do, it's reasonable to say they definitely won't get to attack first. If the DM doesn't do this and simply follows the initiative order, then the dice have decided that the NPC was watching for whatever it was that alerted them to my intentions and was able to react before I got the spell off.

Maybe I'm wrong but it does seem to me that the rules allow for the DM to tweak how combat starts up in this way. They have a few options and can choose whichever they feel makes most sense in the circumstances.

[Saeviomage]

Seems to me this entire problem is caused by drawing a weapon not taking an action. Having someone literally holding a weapon to your face ends up not being any disadvantage at all, because holding a weapon in your hand or not is effectively the same state. The same applies for movement: effectively you could be anywhere within a 30 foot sphere unless someone has a melee weapon out.

Combine those two, and standing 30ft away holding a ranged weapon to an unarmed person is effectively standing next to an armed one.

[Kane0]

Very true, its a combination of that quantum movement and the free object interaction (which can be used to draw a weapon or open a door) within your turn. As long as you win initiative you hold the trump card.
The simplest solution is to rewind the combat by a round as described above, but not all are comfortable doing that.

[Orion3T]

Seems to me this entire problem is caused by drawing a weapon not taking an action. Having someone literally holding a weapon to your face ends up not being any disadvantage at all, because holding a weapon in your hand or not is effectively the same state. The same applies for movement: effectively you could be anywhere within a 30 foot sphere unless someone has a melee weapon out.

Combine those two, and standing 30ft away holding a ranged weapon to an unarmed person is effectively standing next to an armed one.

I don't agree that's the entire problem - you would still have a problem even without taking weapons into account. There are unarmed attacks, spells, shoves and grapples which can all be used the same way. If you're 30 feet from someone with a ranged weapon drawn, you can have them grappled/prone/shocked/whatever by an action requiring adjacency, before they can get a shot off.

The 'problem' (if we assume for the sake of argument that there is a problem) is in trying to represent events which in reality would occur simultaneously using a turn-based system. It means someone always has to go first and who goes first can make a massive difference. It makes initiative very important, especially for those who want to keep at range. And I don't think there's any getting around it - some thing will always seem wonky.

Really, the resolution is to accept there is a lot more abstraction going on in combat than we probably think about. The swordsman managed to close in on and attack the archer because the archer fumbled getting their arrow notched, or hesitated for a few seconds in fear, due to seeing the fighter charging them down.

[Orion3T]

Also, I think it's easy to forget that what the player says their character will do, and what their character actually does, are not the same thing. We can say what we want to try and do, but the actual result is generally determined by a roll of the dice (especially during combat situations).

I might say "I draw my bow and nock an arrow". But when my initiative roll comes out terrible that might mean I actually forgot to nock the arrow, so when the fighter charged at me I had to grab another one. Or maybe I did get one but while drawing the string I noticed it was broken and had to fumble about getting another.

I might say "I cast hold person on the bandit leader", but when initiative comes out bad and the bandit's lackeys charge me down before I can cast it, that might mean I fumbled the gestures on my first attempt.

[Tanarii]

I reject the notion that you can only do these actions in combat. There is no action you cannot also perform out of combat.but if who acts when is important in regards to the actions taken, you are in a combat situation. That is what combat is for. Roll initiative. If the DM believes someone has an edge or tactical advantage and is likely to react first, give them advantage on the initiative roll. If the DM thinks someone is in a position where they will react very slowly, give them disadvantage on the initiative roll. This allows the 'who goes first' situation to be resolved using the rules for resolving such a situation. While still giving someone who reacts very fast (like a barbarian with feral instincts or a high Dex or Alert) a chance to beat someone who reacts slowly but holds a tactical advantage.

Some numbers for:
1) adv Dex 10 vs disadv Dex 10
2) adv Dex 10 vs disadv Dex 14 Barb 7 (+2 adv cancels disadv)
3) adv Dex 10 vs disadv Rogue (+5 disadv)
4) above but Rogue has Alertness (+10 disadv)
http://anydice.com/program/b0d7

1) 81.58% win
2) 54.19% win
3) 58.87% win
4) 31.60% win

Edit: Another any dice that shows the regular chance to win initiative in a straight up contest with no adjustments (the 'b')
http://anydice.com/program/b0d8

[Malifice]

Because using regular combat results in odd results in some circumstances. It's why I asked the question in the first place. One of my original questions was, can you set a Ready action out of combat. After reading the various responses, I believe you can.

Sweet. I look forward to playing a Rogue Assasin in your games.

'In every dungeon or adventure location ever, I walk around with my bow drawn 'ready' to shoot the first enemy I see'.

I look forward to having 2 turns before your monsters can act. Including auto crits.

[sir_argo]

Sweet. I look forward to playing a Rogue Assasin in your games.

'In every dungeon or adventure location ever, I walk around with my bow drawn 'ready' to shoot the first enemy I see'.

I look forward to having 2 turns before your monsters can act. Including auto crits.

That's not a stand off situation. What you just described would be handled by the surprise rules. You may have missed the part where the example specifically says there's no surprise.

[Kane0]

Also your arm would be killing you (https://youtu.be/3GHzSg5P-Jw?t=159) after a few minutes.

[mephnick]

Am I crazy or shouldn't a standoff situation have triggered initiative already? As soon as you raise that bow in a hostile manner initiative starts, the NPC doesn't know you won't shoot immediately.

Player shouts "Don't move!" and starts to raise bow. Initiative rolled.

Then either Player wins and readies action to shoot if NPC moves or NPC wins and reacts to bow being raised (runs, drops prone, attacks, begs for life). The only situation I could see a bow being aimed at another person outside of initiative would be a surprise situation in which surprise rulea take effect.

You can bounce back and forth in initiative without anyone attacking you know. People can talk while continuously holding a ready action every round if you want a standoff.

[Arial Black]

Because using regular combat results in odd results in some circumstances. It's why I asked the question in the first place. One of my original questions was, can you set a Ready action out of combat. After reading the various responses, I believe you can. Actions, bonus actions, reactions, movement, etc. are all described in the section titled "Actions in Combat". Some of the responders to this thread infer that means they can only be done in combat. I don't believe that's true. I can say with 100% certainty that my wizard can cast Levitate (an action) out of combat, or Expeditious Retreat (bonus action) or Shield (reaction). A Ranger can shoot a flaming arrow at a house. A Druid can change shape. I reject the notion that you can only do these actions in combat. There is no action you cannot also perform out of combat.

Ah, I see where you've gone wrong here. It's a common misconception, actually, so don't feel bad.

No-one is claiming that you can't, say, cast a spell out of combat. Or shoot a flaming arrow at a house, or Change Shape if you're a Druid.

What we are pointing out is that, out of combat, you cannot use Actions In Combat! But what you are not understanding is that you don't NEED to use Actions In Combat to cast spells or change shape or whatever if you are not IN combat! You just do it.

You can cast spells or do whatever stuff you like without needing to use Actions In Combat at all....unless you ARE in combat, and if you are then you MUST use Actions In Combat!

Outside combat, you do not need to use the Cast A Spell Action In Combat in order to cast a spell; indeed, you may NOT use the Cast A Spell Action In Combat AT ALL, or any other Action In Combat outside combat and initiative order.

However, it must be noted that some things you do mean that combat has started and the whole surprise/initiative thing kicks in.

So, you may shoot at a house outside combat, but if you attempt to shoot a creature then combat rules kick in, surprise is determined, initiative is rolled.

The thing about the Ready Action In Combat is that what it does is affect when things happen during the initiative count. Outside combat there IS no initiative count! The Ready Action cannot be used outside of the initiative count because the only thing it does is manipulate the timing of events within that initiative count.

Is it making sense now?

[Tanarii]

Is it making sense now?I liked my way of confusing the situation better. :smalltongue:

Even if we basically said the same thing: 'Combat' is whenever you need to formally adjudicate the order in which actions happen.

[dejarnjc]

The thing about the Ready Action In Combat is that what it does is affect when things happen during the initiative count. Outside combat there IS no initiative count! The Ready Action cannot be used outside of the initiative count because the only thing it does is manipulate the timing of events within that initiative count.


Nonsense. The ready action sets up a Reaction, a.k.a. an instant response to a trigger of some kind. You can can ready all sorts of actions that would never trigger initiative.

For example, my party and I have broken into a shop and are rummaging around when we hear footsteps approaching the front door and the jingling of keys. I ready a charm person spell with the trigger being as soon as the door is opened.

Door is opened, charm goes off. Us talking our way out the situation w/ advantage on CHA checks commences. No initiative.

Not being able to ready actions outside of combat makes the game logically inconsistent and is not prohibited by the rules in any way.

[DanyBallon]

Nonsense. The ready action sets up a Reaction, a.k.a. an instant response to a trigger of some kind. You can can ready all sorts of actions that would never trigger initiative.

For example, my party and I have broken into a shop and are rummaging around when we hear footsteps approaching the front door and the jingling of keys. I ready a charm person spell with the trigger being as soon as the door is opened.

Door is opened, charm goes off. Us talking our way out the situation w/ advantage on CHA checks commences. No initiative.

Not being able to ready actions outside of combat makes the game logically inconsistent and is not prohibited by the rules in any way.

Your example could be resolve this way:

1- You hear footsteps approaching the front door and the jingling of keys.
2- the door open. DM calls for initative. Since the creature opening the door do not know you are there, you get a surprise round.
3- what ever your initiative score you are alloew to cast charm person on the creatures before it can act, because surprised creatures can't take an action during 1st round when surprise.
4- Charm works, and you start negociating, combat ends.

[dejarnjc]

Your example could be resolve this way:

1- You hear footsteps approaching the front door and the jingling of keys.
2- the door open. DM calls for initative. Since the creature opening the door do not know you are there, you get a surprise round.
3- what ever your initiative score you are alloew to cast charm person on the creatures before it can act, because surprised creatures can't take an action during 1st round when surprise.
4- Charm works, and you start negociating, combat ends.

Could be but what a wonderful waste of time that would be. Writing down everyone's initiative, going through the whole list etc. etc.


Also imagine if the shopkeep KNEW burglars were in his shop and thus wouldn't be surprised AND won initiative. He'd get a full action and 30 feet of movement to come in and dance around the shop before my ready and prepared character whom was going to act the very instant the door opened even did anything. It's just silly.

[DanyBallon]

Could be but what a wonderful waste of time that would be. Writing down everyone's initiative, going through the whole list etc. etc.


Also imagine if the shopkeep KNEW burglars were in his shop and thus wouldn't be surprised AND won initiative. He'd get a full action and 30 feet of movement to come in and dance around the shop before my ready and prepared character whom was going to act the very instant the door opened even did anything. It's just silly.

It's a waste of time if Charm works, it isn't if it fail.

And if the shopkeep knew about burglars in his shop, then both side are aware. If he win initiative, too bad for you, he was more swift than you were. DM could give you advantage on initiative roll, but if he win initiative, it's fair and square that he may act before you.

Are you going to argue how silly it is in a normal combat that a character 30ft from you can close the gap and attack you before you cast a spell because he has a higher iniatitive count?

[dejarnjc]

If he win initiative, too bad for you, he was more swift than you were. DM could give you advantage on initiative roll, but if he win initiative, it's fair and square that he may act before you.


The issue is with this "A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind". An instant response is faster than a character or NPC's entire turn. Readying a spell means you pre-cast the spell and then release it instantaneously when the triggering event occurs. Basically comparable to having your finger on the trigger of a loaded and pre-aimed crossbow. If I'm set to fire that spell (or crossbow) as soon as that door then it makes no sense for the Shopkeep to be able to open the door and get a full turn. IF the shopkeep also prepared a reaction, (throw a candle into any attacker's face) then that reaction can be resolved at the same time as the PC's reaction of releasing the spell.



Look, I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that you can use Absorb Elements (reaction spell) in response to a fireball trap... no initiative required. It then follows that other spells can be cast outside of initiative as reactions since the rules specifically state that most any spell (any with a casting time of an action) can be cast as a reaction if you use the Ready a Spell action. Ergo you can also use the Ready a Spell (i.e. set a reaction) action outside of combat.

IF you can do this then it logically follows that you can ready attack actions etc. outside of combat.



Are you going to argue how silly it is in a normal combat that a character 30ft from you can close the gap and attack you before you cast a spell because he has a higher iniatitive count?

No because that's not what we are discussing. We're discussing reactions.

[DanyBallon]

The issue is with this "A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind". An instant response is faster than a character or NPC's entire turn. Readying a spell means you pre-cast the spell and then release it instantaneously when the triggering event occurs. Basically comparable to having your finger on the trigger of a loaded and pre-aimed crossbow. If I'm set to fire that spell (or crossbow) as soon as that door then it makes no sense for the Shopkeep to be able to open the door and get a full turn. IF the shopkeep also prepared a reaction, (throw a candle into any attacker's face) then that reaction can be resolved at the same time as the PC's reaction of releasing the spell.



Look, I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that you can use Absorb Elements (reaction spell) in response to a fireball trap... no initiative required. It then follows that other spells can be cast outside of initiative as reactions since the rules specifically state that most any spell (any with a casting time of an action) can be cast as a reaction if you use the Ready a Spell action. Ergo you can also use the Ready a Spell (i.e. set a reaction) action outside of combat.

IF you can do this then it logically follows that you can ready attack actions etc. outside of combat.





No because that's not what we are discussing. We're discussing reactions.

Absorb element is a a spell with a casting time of a reaction thus can be cast in reaction to a event as springing a fire trap.
Casting charm takes 1 action. In order to cast it as a reaction, you need to ready an action, which can happen only during combat. You may state your intention to cast the spell as soon as the door open, but it will still take you an action to do so. If you win initiative, you then can procede before the shopkeeper, otherwise, he was quick enough to caught you off-guard long enough to move and attack you before you manage to cast your spell. That what wining initiative means.

It's clear, simple and perfectly make sense.

[dejarnjc]

Casting charm takes 1 action. In order to cast it as a reaction, you need to ready an action, which can happen only during combat. You may state your intention to cast the spell as soon as the door open, but it will still take you an action to do so. If you win initiative, you then can procede before the shopkeeper, otherwise, he was quick enough to caught you off-guard long enough to move and attack you before you manage to cast your spell. That what wining initiative means.

It's clear, simple and perfectly make sense.

Nah that is so inconsistent it hurt to read. Now you may only ready a spell in combat too? I thought specific beat general? The rules specifically state that a spell caster can ready a spell to release as a reaction. There's no stipulation about it ONLY being in combat. Not allowing that breaks the internal consistency of the game.

[DanyBallon]

Nah that is so inconsistent it hurt to read. Now you may only ready a spell in combat too? I thought specific beat general? The rules specifically state that a spell caster can ready a spell to release as a reaction. There's no stipulation about it ONLY being in combat. Not allowing that breaks the internal consistency of the game.

Ready an action is available only through combat as it use the initiative count.

I don't mind if you or others decide to allow readying actions outside of combat, but the rules works perfectly without the need to do so. It has be proved many time in this thread.

[Ursus the Grim]

Ready an action is available only through combat as it use the initiative count.

I don't mind if you or others decide to allow readying actions outside of combat, but the rules works perfectly without the need to do so. It has be proved many time in this thread.

I really don't understand how this argument is still going on. There's no ready outside of combat. The DM is empowered to change that if he wants, but most of the arguments I've seen on that boil down to 'I don't understand how these rules work, so I'm going to call them inconsistent and stupid.'

Initiative is a reflection of your ability to react and move just a hair faster in a chaotic situation. Its literally there to determine who 'goes first'.

[dejarnjc]

Ready an action is available only through combat as it use the initiative count.

You say that as though it's RAW when it's clearly not. Feel free to play however you want but IMO the rules clearly allow readying an action outside of combat.


I've also said this before but using your ruling, Casting a Spell or Using an Object are only available through combat and use the initiative count. So IF you're going to be consistent then be consistent. You shouldn't just pick and choose when to apply the ruling.

[dejarnjc]

I really don't understand how this argument is still going on. There's no ready outside of combat. The DM is empowered to change that if he wants, but most of the arguments I've seen on that boil down to 'I don't understand how these rules work, so I'm going to call them inconsistent and stupid.'

Initiative is a reflection of your ability to react and move just a hair faster in a chaotic situation. Its literally there to determine who 'goes first'.

Ironically my view is that it's clear that those espousing YOUR view do not understand how the rules work.

[Dalebert]

Read the PHB on readying a spell. If you want to ready a spell to cast it as a reaction to some trigger, you have until your next turn (a combat term). if the trigger hasn't happened by then, the spell fizzles. We're talking the span of a round or about 6 seconds. Spells can't be held any longer than that. This is true for any held action though the consequences aren't usually as costly. That is, if your trigger hasn't gone off before your next turn (a combat term) the action was lost and now you decide what to do with your new action which could be to ready the same action again.

When folks talk about "in combat" I find it's better to think of it as whenever you're in a time-sensitive situation. You don't just roll initiative when you're in a fight. You'd roll it for any situation where your actions and moves are precious like if you're in a trapped room and a bomb is about to explode in 30 seconds (5 rounds) if you don't disarm it first. You'd roll initiative and folks would go in initiative order saying what they do with their turn.

Let's put it this way. If I'm DMing and you say "I want to ready a Magic Missile for anything that comes through the door" and you have no particular reason (say, the sound of footsteps approaching the door) to think you're about to be in a time-sensitive situation, then I'll let you only to tell you six seconds pass and your spell fizzles because the door didn't open.

Now you can say I'm going to knock an arrow and aim it at the door readying an action to fire at whomever comes through. If someone does approach that door 15 minutes later, well you've stared at that door for 15 minutes and now your mind is wandering and your arm is tired. Maybe you stop and flex our arm for a moment or whatever. If they're stealthy and you don't hear them come, they're going to catch you off-guard when they open the door and you'll be surprised during your first turn in initiative. If they're not stealthy and you hear footsteps approaching the door, then everyone will roll initiative from that moment, before they even open the door, and we'll go in order. Maybe you'll have your action readied or maybe you won't. It will depend on how well you rolled and yoru init bonus.

Saying you're readying an action outside of a time-sensitive situation is equivalent to declaring that you're going to get a surprise round and/or automatically roll high on initiative. Got news for yah. It don't work that way. Those things aren't automatic.

[dejarnjc]

Read the PHB on readying a spell. If you want to ready a spell to cast it as a reaction to some trigger, you have until your next turn (a combat term). if the trigger hasn't happened by then, the spell fizzles. We're talking the span of a round or about 6 seconds. Spells can't be held any longer than that. This is true for any held action though the consequences aren't usually as costly. That is, if your trigger hasn't gone off before your next turn (a combat term) the action was lost and now you decide what to do with your new action which could be to ready the same action again.

Technically the rules don't say the spell fizzles after 6 seconds and Mearls has previously hinted that concentration on it could be held indefinitely.

"When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but
hold its energy, which you release with your reaction
when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must'
have a casting time of 1 action, and holding onto the
spell's magic requires concentration (explained in
chapter 10). If your concentration is broken, the spell
dissipates without taking effect. For example, if you are
concentrating on the web spell and ready magic missile,
your web spell ends, and if you take damage before
you release magic missile with your reaction, your
concentration might be broken.

As you can see, the text only details what happens if your concentration is broken. I'm not going to quibble over this one though, obviously YMMV on what you think should happen after 6 seconds.


When folks talk about "in combat" I find it's better to think of it as whenever you're in a time-sensitive situation. You don't just roll initiative when you're in a fight. You'd roll it for any situation where your actions and moves are precious like if you're in a trapped room and a bomb is about to explode in 30 seconds (5 rounds) if you don't disarm it first. You'd roll initiative and folks would go in initiative order saying what they do with their turn.

That's a fair way to play. So for my example above with the shopkeep, DM could call for initiative rolls as soon as the players heard the shopkeep that would solve most every issue I had.



Saying you're readying an action outside of a time-sensitive situation is equivalent to declaring that you're going to get a surprise round and/or automatically roll high on initiative. Got news for yah. It don't work that way. Those things aren't automatic.

Not the same at all. It's about resolving situations where PCs would logically be ready to react in an instantaneous manner.

[Ursus the Grim]

Not the same at all. It's about resolving situations where PCs would logically be ready to react in an instantaneous manner.

Logically, nobody can react in an instantaneous matter.

[RickAllison]

I would like to point out that an archer readying for a long time has just as much as, if not more problems than a caster. Modern compound bows use the pulleys to support the weight of a draw once it has been pulled so that it can be held for extended periods of time. With your D&D bows, you are pulling the entire weight for the time. So readying a longbow attack is like holding a 120 pound weight in the same place for 15 minutes.

[Doug Lampert]

I would like to point out that an archer readying for a long time has just as much as, if not more problems than a caster. Modern compound bows use the pulleys to support the weight of a draw once it has been pulled so that it can be held for extended periods of time. With your D&D bows, you are pulling the entire weight for the time. So readying a longbow attack is like holding a 120 pound weight in the same place for 15 minutes.

It's worse than that, it's two 120lb weights, one with each arm. The tension applies to both arms. One holding away and one toward you.

This is why prior to the Mary Rose salvage there were hordes of people willing to swear up and down that no one could even use a 100lb longbow and that the draws were probably in the 40-60lb range, but certainly no more than 80lb.

[DanyBallon]

You say that as though it's RAW when it's clearly not. Feel free to play however you want but IMO the rules clearly allow readying an action outside of combat.


I've also said this before but using your ruling, Casting a Spell or Using an Object are only available through combat and use the initiative count. So IF you're going to be consistent then be consistent. You shouldn't just pick and choose when to apply the ruling.

Casting a spell and Using an Object can both be used in combat as an Action in Combat (PHB p.192) or out of combat (Interacting with an Object out of combat is described at p. 185, and Casting a spell is described at p. 203), while the for readying the PHB specify that you "take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction"

As you can note Ready is not mention elsewhere than in the Combat chapter and it's description use terms that refers to combat time tracking.

[ProphetSword]

You say that as though it's RAW when it's clearly not. Feel free to play however you want but IMO the rules clearly allow readying an action outside of combat.


Jeremy Crawford doesn't agree with your opinion:

Jack Of All Games ‎@J4ck0fA11G4m3s
@JeremyECrawford #DnD rule Q: Can players use the ready action before initiative is rolled (essentially guaranteeing a free surprise round)?

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative.


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/06/can-players-use-the-ready-action-before-initiative-is-rolled/

[dejarnjc]

Jeremy Crawford doesn't agree with your opinion:

Jack Of All Games ‎@J4ck0fA11G4m3s
@JeremyECrawford #DnD rule Q: Can players use the ready action before initiative is rolled (essentially guaranteeing a free surprise round)?

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford The options, including Ready, in the "Actions in Combat" section (PH, 192–93) are meant to be used in combat, after rolling initiative.


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/06/can-players-use-the-ready-action-before-initiative-is-rolled/

Fair enough, I'll happily admit I was wrong. I still believe Dalebert's methodology is the best at preserving internal consistency within the game. That being said, the phrase "in combat" is misleading regardless. The DMG offers other scenarios (chases, complex traps) where initiative is used and I can't imagine a reason why anyone would prevent ready actions from being used in those situations.

[DanyBallon]

Fair enough, I'll happily admit I was wrong. I still believe Dalebert's methodology is the best at preserving internal consistency within the game. That being said, the phrase "in combat" is misleading regardless. The DMG offers other scenarios (chases, complex traps) where initiative is used and I can't imagine a reason why anyone would prevent ready actions from being used in those situations.

In combat is a generic term to dezcribe a situation where an initiative count is required, and it can apply to a complex trap, or a chase, etc. But I understand how it can be misleading to a point.

[Sabeta]

Came in here to find things already resolved. Surprised it lasted this long to be honest, but yeah DannyBallon had the right of it. Adjudicate how you want, but in the charm scenario you're trying to see who can react the fastest. It's already unrealistic that within 6 seconds a fighter can run 30 feet and swing a halberd at full power then follow up with another swing, then action surge for 4 more swings. It's already unrealistic that a magic even exists in the first place.

It's not so unrealistic for a player to think he's ready for the shopkeeper to be caught off guard when he suddenly sprints through the room. It doesn't matter how the crunch works out; your DM can narrate that bit, what matters is that initiative is king, and you cannot ready before combat.

[Dalebert]

Technically the rules don't say the spell fizzles after 6 seconds and Mearls has previously hinted that concentration on it could be held indefinitely.

You're looking at just the spell section out of context. First paragraph:


Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can act later in the round using your reaction.

1) The "ready" action is a section under "Actions in Combat".
2) You do it "on your turn", something that only exists in initiative order in combat.
3) You can act later "in the round". A round is another combat term that represents one cycle of everyone taking one turn and lasts approximately 6 seconds.

I took the "later in the round" part to mean a readied action, any readied action including a spell, has to be triggered within one round. It doesn't say "later in the combat".

I do, however, admit that's a rather strict reading of the RAW. If it comes back around to your turn, you normally have the option to ready again, disregard the trigger and ready again for the same or a different trigger, or just take a different action. Dropping a readied spell obviously represents a resource that may be worth holding onto and I'd probably allow it to go a little longer within reason, but definitely not past the end of combat.

Folks have addressed physical exhaustion like keeping an arrow knocked, but human(oids) are not machines. There's mental exhaustion as well. You just can't continually maintain the hyper-vigilance of staying focused on a specific trigger such that you can response instantly for more than a minute or two.

[Malifice]

Nonsense. The ready action sets up a Reaction, a.k.a. an instant response to a trigger of some kind. You can can ready all sorts of actions that would never trigger initiative.

For example, my party and I have broken into a shop and are rummaging around when we hear footsteps approaching the front door and the jingling of keys. I ready a charm person spell with the trigger being as soon as the door is opened.

Door is opened, charm goes off.

Wrong. You're doing it all wrong.

The door is opened and initiative is rolled.

As the guy opening the door was unaware of your presence you get surprise on him.

He cannot act on turn one. He cannot take reactions until after term one ends.

Presuming he does not have the alert feat, and also win initiative, you get to cast your charm person spell on him before he gets to act.

The rules already support what you're trying to do. Stop making up absurd house rules that don't need to be made.

[dejarnjc]

Wrong. You're doing it all wrong.

The door is opened and initiative is rolled.

As the guy opening the door was unaware of your presence you get surprise on him.

He cannot act on turn one. He cannot take reactions until after term one ends.

Presuming he does not have the alert feat, and also win initiative, you get to cast your charm person spell on him before he gets to act.

The rules already support what you're trying to do. Stop making up absurd house rules that don't need to be made.

It's hardly absurd. Say the Shopkeep takes 12 seconds to fumble at the door to open in the dark. That's 12 seconds of prep time for the PCs. If the Shopkeep also knows someone is in the shop then it doesn't follow that he'd get the surprised condition. It makes the most sense to either #1) Allow the PCs to state any held actions (and the shopkeep too presumably) or #2) Call for initiative the round BEFORE the door is open thus allowing the PCs (and the Shopkeep) to make or hold actions in the normal initiative order. I don't believe anything in #2 is against the RAI as stated by Crawford.

[dejarnjc]

I do, however, admit that's a rather strict reading of the RAW. If it comes back around to your turn, you normally have the option to ready again, disregard the trigger and ready again for the same or a different trigger, or just take a different action. Dropping a readied spell obviously represents a resource that may be worth holding onto and I'd probably allow it to go a little longer within reason, but definitely not past the end of combat.

Folks have addressed physical exhaustion like keeping an arrow knocked, but human(oids) are not machines. There's mental exhaustion as well. You just can't continually maintain the hyper-vigilance of staying focused on a specific trigger such that you can response instantly for more than a minute or two.

IF this came up in my game I'd probably allow a PC to hold a spell w/ a casting time of 1 action for up to a minute. It's obviously an arbitrary house rule but I like that it provides more options and I have trouble seeing how it could be abused.

[Tanarii]

#2) Call for initiative the round BEFORE the door is open thus allowing the PCs (and the Shopkeep) to make or hold actions in the normal initiative order. I don't believe anything in #2 is against the RAI as stated by Crawford.What is the point? There is nothing gained over just running the start of combat with surprise as normal. And plenty lost in terms of throwing away intended mechanical approach for creatures / PCs with special abilities fully intended to help them overcome surprise / disadvantaged inititiate situations.

Basically, trying to claim ready actions must be allowed before initiative because 'realism' is just an extension of the man at the gym fallacy.

[Malifice]

If the Shopkeep also knows someone is in the shop then it doesn't follow that he'd get the surprised condition. It makes the most sense to either #1) Allow the PCs to state any held actions (and the shopkeep too presumably)

Why have everyone hold actions on all sides? Now we're just quickest to the draw i.e. roll initiative.

If everyone is aware of everyone else, and everyone is declaring combat actions, roll initiative and resolve those actions in turn order. No one is surprised. Everyone is equally aware and actions are resolved by the quickest to the draw.

If one side is not aware of the other side then they can do what they damn well want until the other side becomes aware of them (hearing them as they run around like mad men setting up ambush), at which point everyone is aware of everyone else and everyone is declaring combat actions so roll initiative and resolve those actions in turn order. No one is surprised. Everyone becomes aware of everyone else and actions are resolved by the quickest to the draw.

If one of them manages to get a bead on the shopkeeper before he opens the door somehow and declares a hostile action, roll initiative, and resolve those actions in turn order. The shopkeeper is surprised. He can take no actions on his turn 1, nor can he move, and he can only take reactions to the player characters action if he rolls sufficiently high enough on his Dexterity initiative check.

If the shopkeeper opens the door unaware that there are people on the other side, roll initiative, and resolve those actions in turn order. The shopkeeper is surprised. He can take no actions on his turn 1 nor can he move, and he can only take reactions to the player characters actions if he rolls sufficiently high enough on his dexterity initiative check. The PC burglars all get one action to smash him to death, cast their charm spell and shoot him in the face before he can do anything.

How are you finding this so hard to understand? What about this is confusing you?

The switch from narrative time to combat time isnt a real thing. It's an abstraction imposed by the Dungeon Master. It's not the universe suddenly switching into 'bullet time' on everyone. It's simply the DM breaking the game down into turns (even though the action is largely simultaneous) when (in his opinion) combat starts. Usually when someone declares a hostile action against another party.

[Arial Black]

Nonsense. The ready action sets up a Reaction, a.k.a. an instant response to a trigger of some kind. You can can ready all sorts of actions that would never trigger initiative.

Actually, not only do Actions not exist outside combat rounds and initiative, reactions don't exist either.

Since I last posted, all the other things I wanted to say have been said. Readying does not exist outside of combat.

[ProphetSword]

Actually, not only do Actions not exist outside combat rounds and initiative, reactions don't exist either.


As much as I want to agree with you, I have to point out that they *can* exist outside of combat. Otherwise, you would never be able to cast a spell like Feather Fall. I think the trigger (you or someone within 60' of you falling) creates an opportunity for the reaction to exist in that moment.

How awful would it be if you were falling and a DM told you that you can't cast Feather Fall because you weren't in combat? As with all things, there are exceptions to the rules.

[sir_argo]

Why have everyone hold actions on all sides? Now we're just quickest to the draw i.e. roll initiative.

No, it's not the same. Just rolling regular initiative leads to the utterly irrational result of person A is 30ft away pointing a loaded crossbow at person B. Ok, let's roll initiate... ah, person B won. He runs 30ft, draws his great axe as part of his attack action, swings twice. Happens to be a pole arm master, so he gets a bonus swing with the opposite end of his great axe. Uses action surge and attacks twice more, plus another bonus attack. Person A was supposedly holding a weapon on person B, but somehow because of "just roll initiative", person B gets 6 attacks on person A before he can just pull the trigger on his crossbow.

That's absurd.

Now, I actually consider this thread resolved. Early in the thread someone said that in my example, combat had already begun... just nobody is attacking. That seems to resolve not only my example, but every example I've read in this thread. For the guy who says, I constantly walk around the dungeon with a readied action... nope, there's no foe out there so you're not in combat. For the guy that says, we smash the door open and rush in, ok... you begin combat and use the surprise rules. If you want to now ready an action, go ahead but I think everybody else is already attacking. For the stand off example that I posted, combat began when the bandits stood up and pointed their weapons... and they set readied actions. Nobody is taking any of the other combat actions while the bandit leader and captain parlay, but combat has already begun. Rounds are ticking off. Should guard #4 decide to attack, the readied actions will execute. And that corrects the absurd result of the 6 attack fighter above. And because you're not "setting a reaction outside of combat", rule wonks should be happy too.

It's clean, follows the rules, and I've yet to read an example where it doesn't work.

[Malifice]

No, it's not the same. Just rolling regular initiative leads to the utterly irrational result of person A is 30ft away pointing a loaded crossbow at person B. Ok, let's roll initiate... ah, person B won. He runs 30ft, draws his great axe as part of his attack action, swings twice. Happens to be a pole arm master, so he gets a bonus swing with the opposite end of his great axe. Uses action surge and attacks twice more, plus another bonus attack. Person A was supposedly holding a weapon on person B, but somehow because of "just roll initiative", person B gets 6 attacks on person A before he can just pull the trigger on his crossbow.

Crossbow guy shouldnt have been messing with a fighter of 5th level then. Yes; GROGNARD SLAYER OF WORLDS is THAT fast that he has a chance to spring in and slice the guy to bits before he moves. Crossbow guy obviously crapped his pants with this great axe wielding superhuman warrior catching him off guard by charging him down and froze for a few seconds.

If you're curious if this actually reflects reality, google the 21 feet rule. That is the minimum distance away from an assailant a trained police officer needs to be from a visible and known suspect to be able to draw a firearm and shoot him twice before he stabs you dead.

And this is no ordinary perp. Its GROGNARD SLAYER OF WORLDS! You might want to google the 'Guy in the Gym' fallacy. There aint nothing you cant narrate under the RAW. Try me.

If you dont believe me, assume this is Drizzt with a bow pointed at him. Or Kirk. Or Achillies.

Well.. maybe not Achillies.

Also, you cant use PAM with a Great axe, and action surge doesnt give you an extra bonus action. Quick rules pointer.


That's absurd.

Its really not. Again; google the 21 foot rule.

Of course, if that still bugs you, assuming they were already warily staring at each other with weapons drawn, its entirely possible that initiative was already declared by the DM in this case.

[Sabeta]

even in a noncombat situation, you an easily simulate this. Let's say you want to cast a high powered spell the moment a boulder drops, for some reason or another. As in, let's say you want to destroy the boulder before it hits the ground and kills a plot device or destroys the easy way forward.

Giving the boulder a movepseed roughly equivalent 10 m/s * 6 seconds =60m * 3=~180 feet/turn. (Gratuitously simplified), you would try to ready for the boulder dropping, but would instead just roll initiative against it. Your DM might say that the force of it falling gives it an effective Dexterity of 10, or 20, or whatever he or she wants to assign so that it has a Dex score, then you roll initiative. If the boulder wins initiative, it probably hits the ground and crushes your plot device. If you win initiative, you have a chance to Fireball it and save the day.

I'm not sure why this topic is still going. You cannot Ready outside of Initiative. The entire point of Initiative is to adjudicate minor differences in reaction speeds, and Readying an Action exists in order to delay your turn in case you need to be slower.

If you were allowed to Ready Actions outside of combat the entire game breaks. Now, you can just all declare "I'm ready to shoot anything that looks evil" while walking through the bad guys lair and effectively start every combat with your entire party getting a free attack off; no penalty because "I 'readied the attack action' to shoot anyone wearing the red badge of Enochian which is the symbol of pure evil."

[Malifice]

even in a noncombat situation, you an easily simulate this. Let's say you want to cast a high powered spell the moment a boulder drops, for some reason or another. As in, let's say you want to destroy the boulder before it hits the ground and kills a plot device or destroys the easy way forward.

Giving the boulder a movepseed roughly equivalent 10 m/s * 6 seconds =60m * 3=~180 feet/turn. (Gratuitously simplified), you would try to ready for the boulder dropping, but would instead just roll initiative against it. Your DM might say that the force of it falling gives it an effective Dexterity of 10, or 20, or whatever he or she wants to assign so that it has a Dex score, then you roll initiative. If the boulder wins initiative, it probably hits the ground and crushes your plot device. If you win initiative, you have a chance to Fireball it and save the day.

I'm not seeing 'combat' here.

Id just let him nuke it. Maybe make a ranged spell attack at AC 15 to hit it on the way down with a spell if it was relevant to the story. Advantage for an area effect spell.

[sir_argo]

If you're curious if this actually reflects reality, google the 21 feet rule. That is the minimum distance away from an assailant a trained police officer needs to be from a visible and known suspect to be able to draw a firearm and shoot him twice before he stabs you dead.

Not applicable to my example. The 21 feet rule is for edged defense. It does not apply to people who are pointing a loaded firearm at the police officer. It's for how long it takes the perp to run at the officer, not the other way around. That's reality.

Interestingly, you can draw a firearm and shoot the bad guy before he pulls the trigger. In real life, firearms can be drawn and fired in a split second and that can be done before the bad buy pulls his trigger. And it actually works using the reaction rules. Bandit has a reaction set to fire at guard if he does something; guard decides to attack with a crossbow himself, rather than a melee weapon. As stated in my example, Guard #4 executed his movement before the reactions of the bandits kicked in. But if the guard used a crossbow instead, no movement is needed. He executes his attack action (and interacting with an object is free as part of the attack action). The bandit's reaction occurs after the triggering event.


And this is no ordinary perp. Its GROGNARD SLAYER OF WORLDS! You might want to google the 'Guy in the Gym' fallacy. There aint nothing you cant narrate under the RAW. Try me.

1) Not only is Grognard Slayer of Worlds a D&D character, capable of superhuman feats, but the bandit is also a D&D character... presumably capable of superhuman feats. That bandit could be 20th level, but a simple initiative roll determined the outcome... not superhuman abilities.

2) As I said in an earlier post, I will be happy to perform the super soaker experiment 100 times with anyone. ANYONE. Put Usain Bolt in front of me. I'm pulling the trigger before he gets to me every single time.


If you reduce this situation down to a simple initiative roll, it actually breaks any ability to hold a hostage. It's pointless. No BBEG will ever even attempt it because, it just boils down to initiative. The fact he's holding a dagger to the victim's throat becomes completely irrelevant since we're just going to roll initiative and the party can take actions before he slits her throat.


Of course, if that still bugs you, assuming they were already warily staring at each other with weapons drawn, its entirely possible that initiative was already declared by the DM in this case.

I think that's what I already said.


Early in the thread someone said that in my example, combat had already begun... just nobody is attacking. That seems to resolve not only my example, but every example I've read in this thread.

[Malifice]

Not applicable to my example. The 21 feet rule is for edged defense. It does not apply to people who are pointing a loaded firearm at the police officer. It's for how long it takes the perp to run at the officer, not the other way around. That's reality.

Wut? How on earth did you end up he...

Now do it the other way around.


Interestingly, you can draw a firearm and shoot the bad guy before he pulls the trigger. In real life, firearms can be drawn and fired in a split second and that can be done before the bad buy pulls his trigger.

I think youre missing the point of the 21 foot rule.

It means that If you and I were standing there, with you watching me closely and suspicious of me (in a 'you're the Cop and Im the Suspect kind of way), I could draw a knife, charge you and stab you to death before you could react, draw a pistol and shoot me unless I was more than 21 feet away from you at the time I went for my knife.


1) Not only is Grognard Slayer of Worlds a D&D character, capable of superhuman feats, but the bandit is also a D&D character... presumably capable of superhuman feats. That bandit could be 20th level, but a simple initiative roll determined the outcome... not superhuman abilities.

Well no because if the Bandit was 20th level its literally impiisble for Grognard to kill the guy in one round.Heck even if Grognard managed to 'hit' the 20th level character, he probably misses (narratively) only taking a few hit points off our 20th level Epic PC.

Presuming the 20th level bandit is also a fighter (with the crossbow mastery feat) making him comparable to GROGNARD then he then shoots old Groggy boy 8 times with his crossbow (likely while ducking and weaving and luckily being missed by GROGNARDS attacks -losing HP in the process)

Being an archer he's probably also maxed dex. Maybe he should have taken the feat that gives him another +5 to initiative and taken the Champion archetype for a further +3.

Old Groggy is doing well indeed to beat him to the draw seeing as he's a Str based Axe wielder.


If you reduce this situation down to a simple initiative roll, it actually breaks any ability to hold a hostage. It's pointless. No BBEG will ever even attempt it because, it just boils down to initiative. The fact he's holding a dagger to the victim's throat becomes completely irrelevant since we're just going to roll initiative and the party can take actions before he slits her throat.

Sounds like the BBEG has already initiated combat. He's clearly delared a hostile action in the presence of another combatant (the victim). Its initiative time (relative to him and the victim).

[Tanarii]

No, it's not the same. Just rolling regular initiative leads to the utterly irrational result of person A is 30ft away pointing a loaded crossbow at person B. Ok, let's roll initiate... ah, person B won. He runs 30ft, draws his great axe as part of his attack action, swings twice. Happens to be a pole arm master, so he gets a bonus swing with the opposite end of his great axe. Uses action surge and attacks twice more, plus another bonus attack. Person A was supposedly holding a weapon on person B, but somehow because of "just roll initiative", person B gets 6 attacks on person A before he can just pull the trigger on his crossbow.

That's absurd.How did crossbow guy get his crossbow up and point it and guy B without combat starting in the first place?

This question, of course, brings us right back to "combat should have already begun" in many cases.

However, as I've suggested several times already, if that situation did arise before combat has already begun. BUT you want to allow a chance for Guy B to be just that fast, not completely take away a chance for someone that has invested in a high Dex or other initiative advantages, the solution is simple: adv to initiative for crossbow guy, disadvantage to Guy B.

This reflects the fact that guy B may be a high level adventurer who can do amazing things while crossbow guy may be a slowpoke reaction time guy. As opposed to assuming that we're just dealing with two guys as the gym.

[Sabeta]

I'm not seeing 'combat' here.

Id just let him nuke it. Maybe make a ranged spell attack at AC 15 to hit it on the way down with a spell if it was relevant to the story. Advantage for an area effect spell.

You're right, this was just a thought exercise. You could adjudicate this as a brief combat encounter to let the players have a shot of doing something, or if you didn't care that much just let them take a shot at it. I personally plan on using this exact encounter with the boulder going to smash a suspension bridge in the near future, but it doesn't necessarily need to be that way. It's just easier since the Boulder will also have AC and HP, it for all the world can be treated like a creature with no ability to attack the players.

[Arial Black]

As much as I want to agree with you, I have to point out that they *can* exist outside of combat. Otherwise, you would never be able to cast a spell like Feather Fall. I think the trigger (you or someone within 60' of you falling) creates an opportunity for the reaction to exist in that moment.

How awful would it be if you were falling and a DM told you that you can't cast Feather Fall because you weren't in combat? As with all things, there are exceptions to the rules.

Just like you can do stuff out of combat without having (or requiring) actions, you can cast spells out of combat without having (or needing) the Cast A Spell action; you just cast it.

The Casting Time of a spell, when the casting time is Action, Bonus Action, Reaction or 1 Round, is the information you need to adjudicate the spellcasting in combat. Those words do not apply outside combat.

If you fall outside combat you don't have any reactions, but you don't need any actions or reactions to cast a spell, even feather fall, outside combat. You just cast it.

Simples.