Do you consider a hamburger a sandwich?

[Some Android]

I just watched a let's play where this heated debate came up. What are your thoughts?

[Togath]

Well, it's ingredients between two pieces of bread. So I'd say yes.
Unless you mean a hamburger steak, of course.:smalltongue:

[Razade]

A sandwich is


A food item consisting of one or more types of food, such as vegetables, sliced cheese or meat, placed on or between slices of bread, or more generally any dish wherein two or more pieces of bread serve as a container or wrapper for another food type.

A haumbruger is


A hamburger or burger is a sandwich consisting of one or more cooked patties of ground meat, usually beef, placed inside a sliced bread roll or bun. The patty may be pan fried, barbecued, or flame broiled. Hamburgers are often served with cheese, lettuce, tomato, bacon, onion, pickles, or chiles; condiments such as mustard, mayonnaise, ketchup, relish, or "special sauce"; and are frequently placed on sesame seed buns. A hamburger topped with a slice of cheese is called cheeseburger.

The answer is yes. There's no argument to be had. It's a sandwich.

[Liquor Box]

There is always argument to be had - because the definitions of words on the internet are subject to the way the words are ordinarily used by most people. Especially true when the "definition" you find may differ depending which localised version of google you use to find it.

I think the word sandwich means something a little different in USA, to other parts of the English speaking world (such as where I am from. In that regard I note that the Wikipedia page on "Sandwich" says this:

"In the United Kingdom and Australia, the term sandwich is more narrowly defined than in the US: it refers only to an item which uses sliced bread from a loaf. An item with similar fillings, but using an entire bread roll cut horizontally in half, is always referred to as a roll... However, hot sliced (not ground) beef between two slices of toasted bread is referred to as a steak sandwich: it is the sliced loaf bread that distinguishes the steak sandwich from a burger."

I also know that Subway markets their products as sandwiches in USA, but not where I come from, simply because their product does not come within the normally understood use of the word here.

I wonder if the "heated debate" that Some Android was referring to arose from Americans and non-Americans each forcefully asserting that their differing interpretation of the word "sandwich" was correct.

[Remmirath]

Yeah, I think this is really a regional difference. In American usage, there's no reason not to classify a hamburger as a sandwich; it certainly is at least as much as a sandwich made from a sliced croissant, a sliced bagel, a sliced roll, or any number of other things that are commonly accepted as a "sandwich" here. Further, when looking in the menu in a restaurant, hamburgers are almost always found under the "sandwich" section.

However, that's not the universal definition of it. Personally, I actually feel that the other definition of it quoted above makes more sense, but since that's not how it's used here I'm still in the habit of lumping burgers into the sandwich category.

[Keltest]

If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

[AvatarVecna]

I personally say yes, but then, I'm American. Granted, even thinking about it, I'm not sure why you'd need multiple words for "bread-->non-bread stuff-->bread thing", when describing the stuff on it is usually more important than kind of bread it's on, much less the style of bread it's on. I wouldn't say "I'd like a rye sandwich with roast beef", I'd say "I'd like a roast beef sandwich on rye"; they both mean the same thing, sure, but one feels a lot more natural.

Of course, this leads into other weirdness, where trademarks give things a non-"sandwich" name, and adding sandwich in sometimes feels more clunky. To use McDonalds as an example, I wouldn't feel too weird ordering a "biscuit sandwich", but I'd probably feel weird ordering a "McGriddle Sandwich". And regardless of the kind of burger, "burger sandwich" feels like completely wrong, even though either one alone would be acceptable ("I'd like a number 3, just the sandwich" or "I'd like a number 3, just the burger" is fine, but "I'd like a number 3, just the burger sandwich" feels UGH).

[Some Android]

I wonder if the "heated debate" that Some Android was referring to arose from Americans and non-Americans each forcefully asserting that their differing interpretation of the word "sandwich" was correct.

Everyone in the "debate" was an American born and raised. (debate starts around 1 hr 27 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PhOOzWtrAQ)

[BannedInSchool]

If we allow a hamburger to be a sandwich then so will be a hot dog in a bun, and that can not be.

[Razade]

There is always argument to be had - because the definitions of words on the internet are subject to the way the words are ordinarily used by most people. Especially true when the "definition" you find may differ depending which localised version of google you use to find it.

I think the word sandwich means something a little different in USA, to other parts of the English speaking world (such as where I am from. In that regard I note that the Wikipedia page on "Sandwich" says this:


I also know that Subway markets their products as sandwiches in USA, but not where I come from, simply because their product does not come within the normally understood use of the word here.

I wonder if the "heated debate" that Some Android was referring to arose from Americans and non-Americans each forcefully asserting that their differing interpretation of the word "sandwich" was correct.

Just another example of the United States improving the language. Getting rid of useless u's. Making the language less anal about definitions. Really, the United States needs a medal for cleaning up a perfectly serviceable language for the rest of you.

[Strigon]

If we allow a hamburger to be a sandwich then so will be a hot dog in a bun, and that can not be.

Seconded.
Today, it's hamburgers. Tomorrow, hot dogs and sausages; soon enough, pizza is an open-faced sandwich!

Seriously, though, those things surrounding a burger? Yeah, they're not slices of bread. They're two halves of a bun. There is a difference, and I challenge anyone who cares to disagree to a round of fisticuffs!

Edit:


Just another example of the United States improving the language. Getting rid of useless u's. Making the language less anal about definitions. Really, the United States needs a metal for cleaning up a perfectly serviceable language for the rest of you.

What? What?
Listen here, Yank, I'll have none of that nonsense. Show up late to no less than two wars, and then talk about improving the language? Bah! :smalltongue:
All in jest, of course. Well, except for the part about it being nonsense; I stand by that.

[Liquor Box]

Just another example of the United States improving the language. Getting rid of useless u's. Making the language less anal about definitions. Really, the United States needs a metal for cleaning up a perfectly serviceable language for the rest of you.

You certainly get a metal for unintentional irony.

[Razade]

What? What?
Listen here, Yank, I'll have none of that nonsense. Show up late to no less than two wars, and then talk about improving the language? Bah! :smalltongue:


Wie gefällt Ihnen diese Freiheit?

Oh sorry, I figured I should speak to you in the language you would have been speaking if it weren't for us.
Totally, I don't care if you're wrong about hamburgers not being sandwiches or your funny u's.


You certainly get a metal for unintentional irony.

I know what I'm about.

[Winter_Wolf]

Riddle me this: if I take that same patty of ground beef and used two slices of bread instead of a bun (it happens), is it more or less of a sandwich? If it is ground beef with say taco seasoning and salsa and use bread instead of a tortilla, is it not a sandwich?

Also, when you get or make a meatball sub (sandwich), it's a long loaf of bread that often isn't fully cut in two, so as to attempt to keep at least a little sauce inside the sandwich. How is that loaf of bread significantly different than say quality hotdog buns, other than being larger?

But perhaps most important of all, how great are the lives of people debating what is and is not a sandwich? Because if this is an actual topic requiring debate, then this is the kind of thing that is a step beyond "first world problems."

By the way, I've had a pizza sandwich. Literally a slice of pizza between two slices of bread. Alcohol may have been a factor. Still tasted good.

[Anderlith]

What do non-americans call sub sandwiches? It's not two slices from a loaf its an entire loaf.

Sandwich is a general, breadlike object with meat & such (doesnt even really need meat (i.e. PB&J)

A burger is a specific type of sandwich, just like a sub

[Keltest]

If we allow a hamburger to be a sandwich then so will be a hot dog in a bun, and that can not be.

A properly crafted hot dog is not "between" two pieces of bread, but instead resting in a gap in one singular piece of bread, which only becomes two pieces due to mishandling.

[golentan]

Of course a hamburger is a sandwich.

And it's good to know Team Four Star has a fan base. :smalltongue:

[Knaight]

If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

I'm the same - my immediate answer isn't "yes" but "technically, yes", inasmuch as while it fits within the broader definition the term isn't used because of the more specific one. It's like someone describing a square as a quadrilateral - that's absolutely the case, but if you're using that term at all it tends to imply something a little less regular.

[Liquor Box]

What do non-americans call sub sandwiches? It's not two slices from a loaf its an entire loaf.

Sandwich is a general, breadlike object with meat & such (doesnt even really need meat (i.e. PB&J)

A burger is a specific type of sandwich, just like a sub

A roll usually.

[Domino Quartz]

I consider a hamburger to be a specific class of sandwich, although I wouldn't normally think of it that way.

[Anderlith]

A roll usually.

So you would go to Subway & eat a "roll" with swiss & ham on it?

[Fri]

Pretty sure yes. For example, my irish friend eat "breakfast roll" which is basically subway sandwich I guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakfast_roll

But since subway specifically call their restaurant a "Sandwich restaurant" it'd make sense if you enter there to ask for a sandwich, no need for be pedantic for that.

[Anderlith]

Pretty sure yes. For example, my irish friend eat "breakfast roll" which is basically subway sandwich I guess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakfast_roll

But since subway specifically call their restaurant a "Sandwich restaurant" it'd make sense if you enter there to ask for a sandwich, no need for be pedantic for that.

Wasnt trying to be pedantic. Legitimately asking. I see rolls as small soft tiny bread lumps, I dont visualize them as containing much of anything besides butter. Now my family does use them as tiny sandwiches occationally but this doesnt change my reactive visual being a plain bread lump. So calling a sub a roll is interesting. Especially since I always thought a roll would be round & not cylindrical given its name implies it rolls or was rolled.

Take for example cake, most people visualize soft sweet bread with icing i.e. a birthday cake, not a gram cracker crust & creamy filling like a cheesecake, cheesecake should actually be cheesepie.

Leading back to my first question is, just because it's on a bun & not two slices of bread a burger is still a sandwich in the same way a sub is a sandwich even tough it uses an entire loaf

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think the word sandwich means something a little different in USA, to other parts of the English speaking world.

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was. And yes, the things in Subway are definitely rolls. Or paninis if they're on crusty/French bread. Though I would add that the influence of the Subway chain has led to most people calling their products 'subs'.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a sandwich can't be cooked. It becomes a toastie if you cook it.

How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs? :smallconfused:

[golentan]

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was. And yes, the things in Subway are definitely rolls. Or paninis if they're on crusty/French bread. Though I would add that the influence of the Subway chain has led to most people calling their products 'subs'.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a sandwich can't be cooked. It becomes a toastie if you cook it.

How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs? :smallconfused:

I dunno, how do you brits refer to so many things as "Puddings?"

You've got your umbrella term, which is sandwich, and then you've got all the different subgroups. Hoagies, subs, burgers, cheesesteaks, panini, and so, so many more.

And Subway named their chain for the Submarine Sandwich style, AKA a "Sub," not vice versa.

[Ninja_Prawn]

And Subway named their chain for the Submarine Sandwich style, AKA a "Sub," not vice versa.

Yeah, I get that, but what I mean is, the term wasn't in common use here before Subway cane along. We would have called them 'rolls' before that. Possibly 'submarine roll', but the shortening of that would be 'roll'. And still, if someone said 'sub' to me today, I would assume they meant that one chain specifically.

[Wardog]

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was.

Ditto. Also, in British use, "burger" can mean the patty itself ("patty" rarely being used in the UK - I went though most of my life without ever hearing the word). Arguably the roll etc is just what a burger comes in by default.

[Fri]

How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs? :smallconfused:

Amusingly, my language does have originally only one catchall word for all "snack pastry." You know what I mean? Basically stuff you don't eat for an actual meal, there's one catchall for that. It's the equivalent of cake. Amusingly, that means "bread" can be called that depending on what it's for. Like, if you have a loaf of sweet bread you meant to use for your lunch it'll be "bread" but if you're going to eat it for snacking later it'll be a "cake."

Also, old people (in my childhood people used to still do it) call any protein part of a meal "the fish." So if someone ask you in lunch. "What's your fish?" and you answer "chicken." That's a legitimate conversation :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Brit here, and yes, I wouldn't consider a hamburger a sandwich. "Sub" wasn't a commonly used phrase here before Subway opened up. If we did consider having an entire loaf cut in half and with fillings before they came along it would almost certainly have been a French stick, and I think it would still have been referred to as that after having the fillings inserted.

[Coidzor]

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was. And yes, the things in Subway are definitely rolls. Or paninis if they're on crusty/French bread. Though I would add that the influence of the Subway chain has led to most people calling their products 'subs'.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a sandwich can't be cooked. It becomes a toastie if you cook it.

I find it very confusing how someone can use words like "bap" and "barm" and "toastie" and yet care that strongly that a hamburger cannot and must not be a sandwich. :smallconfused:

Although in retrospect, calling something a panini when it isn't even a pressed, grilled sandwich is probably the most consternating thing here.


How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs? :smallconfused:

Because the differences are much less than you apparently have built up in your head.

Also, please don't actually use that word to refer to us unironically, it just sounds silly.

[Ninja_Prawn]

French stick

Is it a Southern thing to call these baguettes? Because my parents (from the North) call them French sticks, but I (born in the South) prefer baguette. Or is it more of a class thing - do posh Northerners use the French too?

[Aedilred]

I'm inclined to agree with Keltest (I seem to be saying this a lot at the moment). A burger may technically be a sandwich and if asked to classify it in terms of food taxonomy I would probably group it among the sandwiches. But given that food taxonomy is not really a thing that exists, in a practical context I can't imagine a situation arising where this would come up. When sandwiches are mentioned I do not picture a burger.

To a lesser extent, the same would go for bagels and filled baguettes, although I think each of those would be closer to what I think of as a sandwich than burgers are. Paninis, filled rolls and ciabatta are borderline. Croissants I think are a bit of a stretch, as mentally I group them with pastries rather than breads.

I grew up calling toasties "toasted sandwiches" and so while I would not consider an unspecified sandwich to be toasted by default, I don't think toasting it causes it to lose its sandwich status.

As to why one might make the distinction? Well, if you expand the everyday definition of sandwich to include all of the above, what do you call a normal sandwich? (i.e. two slices of bread with filling between them). You have to come up with a new term and then you've really gone off the deep end.


Wie gefällt Ihnen diese Freiheit?

Oh sorry, I figured I should speak to you in the language you would have been speaking if it weren't for us.
Standard Yankee hyperbole :smallwink:. Not only is the premise questionable, but conquest doesn't always result in linguistic change, and in the mooted situation, almost certainly would not have.

[factotum]

Is it a Southern thing to call these baguettes? Because my parents (from the North) call them French sticks, but I (born in the South) prefer baguette. Or is it more of a class thing - do posh Northerners use the French too?

I wouldn't know, not being either posh or a Southerner? (Well, technically I was born in Northampton, but it's north of Watford Gap Services so it's still Northern as far as you Southern types are concerned :smallbiggrin:).

[Pyromancer999]

Just to note, when the hamburger was first made, it was served between two slices of bread, from a loaf. The place that first made them still serves them this way, and I know some people make them with slices of bread. Not bad, but also not as good at absorbing juices from what's inside as a bun is.

[Strigon]

Wie gefällt Ihnen diese Freiheit?

Oh sorry, I figured I should speak to you in the language you would have been speaking if it weren't for us.


Huh. I must have missed the day in history where Hitler planned his invasion of Canada!

Besides, if not for you, the whole continent would still be flying under the Union Flag, and the war would've been over by teatime!

[Tiri]

Not really what I think of when I hear 'sandwich', but I suppose it is a kind of sandwich, consisting of a non-bread food between two pieces of bread.

[Winter_Wolf]

As to why one might make the distinction? Well, if you expand the everyday definition of sandwich to include all of the above, what do you call a normal sandwich? (i.e. two slices of bread with filling between them). You have to come up with a new term and then you've really gone off the deep end.

If you're getting into technicalities, we sometimes call them "cold cut sandwiches." True, it starts falling apart when you have warm-hot fillings, but then people say "hot sandwiches". Which apparently excludes burgers for some reason. But people also consider Arby's food for some reason, so I think we've left the edge of the deep end far behind.

[Delicious Taffy]

So, based on people's reactions and explanations, can we assume that "sandwich" is a term that has a different sort of connotation based on region? American English tends to lump a lot of different things under one umbrella, and it looks like "sandwich" is no exception. For what it's worth, "burger" can be used to describe any sort of filling between two vertical buns. Hot dogs seem to be an anomaly at first glance, but once you look into the regional variants, they sort of wind up being their own category.

[Anderlith]

So, based on people's reactions and explanations, can we assume that "sandwich" is a term that has a different sort of connotation based on region? American English tends to lump a lot of different things under one umbrella, and it looks like "sandwich" is no exception. For what it's worth, "burger" can be used to describe any sort of filling between two vertical buns. Hot dogs seem to be an anomaly at first glance, but once you look into the regional variants, they sort of wind up being their own category.

Not any meat makes a burger. Off hamdedly I would say it has to be of the beef variety. A chicken "burger" doesnt sound right. A chicken sandwich does though.

[Winter_Wolf]

Not any meat makes a burger. Off hamdedly I would say it has to be of the beef variety. A chicken "burger" doesnt sound right. A chicken sandwich does though.

Off hamdedly, you say? Please tell me that was intentional.

If it was a typo, please don't fix it.

[Keltest]

Not any meat makes a burger. Off hamdedly I would say it has to be of the beef variety. A chicken "burger" doesnt sound right. A chicken sandwich does though.

Turkey burgers are absolutely a thing. As are chicken burgers, for that matter, though making patties out of ground chicken is uncommon.

[Flickerdart]

A tomato is a fruit. A watermelon is a berry. A hamburger is a sandwich.

[cobaltstarfire]

I do not consider Hamburgers to be sandwiches. It doesn't matter if one could roughly classify a hamburger as a sandwich, because I would never say I want a sandwich when I want a hamburger, same as I would never ask for soup when wanting dry cereal with milk, same as I wouldn't put tomato in a fruit salad.




Is it a Southern thing to call these baguettes? Because my parents (from the North) call them French sticks, but I (born in the South) prefer baguette. Or is it more of a class thing - do posh Northerners use the French too?

So when you say baguette, do you mean a small/skinny loaf of bread (what a baguette is), or a long skinny bread stick type thing? I'm not sure I've ever heard the term "french stick" personally, but it sounds like its trying to describe breadsticks to me. But I've also never heard of breadsticks being called baguettes (even in the south) because a breadstick is not a baguette, one is much skinnier and often (but not always) crunchy, while the other is still a loaf.

[Razade]

Standard Yankee hyperbole :smallwink:. Not only is the premise questionable, but conquest doesn't always result in linguistic change, and in the mooted situation, almost certainly would not have.

You say that with the language we saved for you on your tongue. Revisionist history if I've ever heard it.


Huh. I must have missed the day in history where Hitler planned his invasion of Canada!

Besides, if not for you, the whole continent would still be flying under the Union Flag, and the war would've been over by teatime!

The whole of the continent never flew under the Oppressor's Flag. The Netherlands, Russia, Spain and France all owned land over here. It wasn't until we threw off your cheese covered, boiled until it's gray chains that we decided to save this country from all other weird speaking countries. And the Native Americans. :smalltongue:

[Ninja_Prawn]

So when you say baguette, do you mean a small/skinny loaf of bread (what a baguette is), or a long skinny bread stick type thing? I'm not sure I've ever heard the term "french stick" personally, but it sounds like its trying to describe breadsticks to me. But I've also never heard of breadsticks being called baguettes (even in the south) because a breadstick is not a baguette, one is much skinnier and often (but not always) crunchy, while the other is still a loaf.

I mean the loaf kind. Anything from these mini (http://www.goldcoasttrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mini-baguette-210315.jpg) ones to these full-size (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/3/3b/Baguette.png/revision/latest) ones. My parents would call both a 'French stick'.

[cobaltstarfire]

I mean the loaf kind. Anything from these mini (http://www.goldcoasttrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mini-baguette-210315.jpg) ones to these full-size (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/3/3b/Baguette.png/revision/latest) ones. My parents would call both a 'French stick'.


I'm not sure that's a northern thing, the last time I saw a baguette (up here in Ohio, with in-laws from New York) it was a loafy kind of thing, and it was called a baguette properly.

I wonder why your parents call them french sticks...

[JeenLeen]

Is there anyone here who would, in casual conversation or when ordering a food item, call a hamburger by the term 'sandwich'?

In general, I find myself agreeing with this:


If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'm not sure that's a northern thing, the last time I saw a baguette (up here in Ohio, with in-laws from New York) it was a loafy kind of thing, and it was called a baguette properly.

I wonder why your parents call them french sticks...

Psst. Different country. England, it seems.

[tonberrian]

Merriam-Webster comes down as hamburgers being a sandwich, a sandwich being 2 or more slices or a split roll, and thus by extension hot dogs in buns are sandwiches. I find no fault in their logic.

[Some Android]

A watermelon is a berry.

:smallconfused:

You've lost me sir.

[Razade]

:smallconfused:

You've lost me sir.

Watermelons are scientifically a berry. So are pumpkins, bananas, tomatoes, and avocado. A berry is "a fleshy fruit produced from a single ovary." This also means peppers are a berry as well. What aren't berries? Raspberries, Strawberries or Blackberries. They're called Accessory Fruit or Aggregate Fruit.

[golentan]

:smallconfused:

You've lost me sir.

From wikipedia, not as the sole definition but as one of the more concise explanations I've found of the definition of a berry in Botany vs. typical conversation:

"In botanical terminology, a berry is a fleshy fruit without a stone produced from a single flower containing one ovary. Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain fruits commonly called berries, such as strawberries and raspberries."

Watermelons qualify.

[Delicious Taffy]

:smallconfused:

You've lost me sir.

It's true. The fruit of the watermelon plant is classified as a specific sort of modified berry, known as a pepo. Definitely not something most people would expect, but that's science for you.

Edit: Wow, everyone pile on the berry-denying heathen, am I right?

[cobaltstarfire]

Psst. Different country. England, it seems.

Well that would explain why I've never heard anything being called a "french stick"!

[golentan]

Well that would explain why I've never heard anything being called a "french stick"!

I've heard of it here in america.

But I can't disclose due to board rules. :smalltongue:

[Strigon]

Merriam-Webster comes down as hamburgers being a sandwich, a sandwich being 2 or more slices or a split roll, and thus by extension hot dogs in buns are sandwiches. I find no fault in their logic.

Just because there's no fault in their logic doesn't mean we can go around saying it's right. They could define a sandwich to be any food with bread in it and it would hold up just as well to logic, but would be just as wrong.

[Aedilred]

Merriam-Webster has as much linguistic authority in the Commonwealth as the OED has in the US, which is to say none. And to be honest the OED is increasingly modish and unreliable even for British use, though obviously still superior, because we've got to argue about something, right?

I stand by my original verdict. A hamburger is a sandwich in a similar way to how a Victoria sponge is a sandwich. It is indeed technically a sandwich, but for any practical purpose in real life, its membership of the sandwich family is irrelevant.

[Spojaz]

I have always considered the hamburger a sandwich, and will generally order it as such. "I would like a #2, small size, lemonade, with no onions on the sandwich please." is my normal order at my local fast food place. I never questioned it, nor have I been asked for clarification.

I can't conceive of calling a hot dog a sandwich, though there is not that much of a difference between them.

[Flickerdart]

I can't conceive of calling a hot dog a sandwich, though there is not that much of a difference between them.

A hot dog is a wrap - there is one piece of bread that is wrapped around the ingredients.

[Peelee]

Victoria sponge

OK, now you're just making things up.

[Liquor Box]

So you would go to Subway & eat a "roll" with swiss & ham on it?

Generally something like that would be called a roll, but when it comes from Subway it would be called a "Subway" (or perhaps a "Subway roll") because that is how Subway brands it here.

[Flickerdart]

OK, now you're just making things up.

If being sweet and sugary means it's not bread, then most American bread is disqualified. Wonderbread? More like Wondercake.

[factotum]

OK, now you're just making things up.

No, he's quite right--in the UK at least, a traditional Victoria sponge (e.g. two round sponge cake layers with jam and cream in the middle) can be referred to as a Victoria sandwich. See the section on "Victoria sponge" on the Wikipedia article about sponge cakes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_cake

[Ninja_Prawn]

OK, now you're just making things up.

Personally, I'd say a proper Victoria sponge is more of a sandwich than a hamburger is. At least, I can conceive of calling it a 'sandwich cake'. Especially because I frequently use the Victoria recipe for non-sandwiched cakes (I made some butterfly cakes with it literally yesterday), so a distinction would need to be made.

[Peelee]

No, he's quite right--in the UK at least, a traditional Victoria sponge (e.g. two round sponge cake layers with jam and cream in the middle) can be referred to as a Victoria sandwich. See the section on "Victoria sponge" on the Wikipedia article about sponge cakes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_cake

Oh, I did before I commented. I just like joking on the Brits for their (admittedly kind of awesome) names for things.

[Jasdoif]

Is KFC's Double Down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Down_(sandwich)) a sandwich? ...okay, apparently whoever put it in the title of the Wikipedia article thought so. But it doesn't have bread, it uses chicken fillets to hold the bacon and cheese filling.

So is it "actually" a sandwich? Or is it a food item arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches? Or is the word "sandwich" being adapted, or has it been adapted, to encompass food items arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches?

[Peelee]

Is KFC's Double Down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Down_(sandwich)) a sandwich? ...okay, apparently whoever put it in the title of the Wikipedia article thought so. But it doesn't have bread, it uses chicken fillets to hold the bacon and cheese filling.

So is it "actually" a sandwich? Or is it a food item arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches? Or is the word "sandwich" being adapted, or has it been adapted, to encompass food items arranged in the style typically associated with sandwiches?

I don't know what it is, but it's delightful.

[AuthorGirl]

If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef

By the way, I am Canadian, so this American regional use thing does not apply to me.

On another note, I am amused by the fact that there are multiple pages of forum argument about this when we mostly seem to be agreeing with eachother. GiantITP in a nutshell!

[Peelee]

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef


Not a big Reuben fan, I take it?

[Razade]

Or a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich?

[Aedilred]

Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef
!


Not a big Reuben fan, I take it?
Yeah, salt beef sandwiches are definitely a thing. As are (usually cold) roast beef sandwiches. With horseradish, they're hard to beat.


Or a Philly Cheesesteak Sandwich?
That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.

On doing some research to try to find out what the specific type of meat was in the "original" (i.e. eponymous) sandwich, which I suspect was beef or mutton, but may not have been, I discovered that in the US at least there is a legal definition for sandwich and it appears that two discrete pieces of bread are required. Which would disqualify hot dogs and other filled rolls where the bread remains joined.

Edit: So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

[Scarlet Knight]

A hamburger is a sandwich the way a lion is a cat: yes, by definition, but no one refers to one that way.



That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.
Balderdash ! As any good student knows, the Philly sleez cheese steak is one of the few items that taste as good at 1am as it does at 1pm!



So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

Only if can be eaten with your hands.

[Razade]

That, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination.

Certainly isn't even close.


On doing some research to try to find out what the specific type of meat was in the "original" (i.e. eponymous) sandwich, which I suspect was beef or mutton, but may not have been, I discovered that in the US at least there is a legal definition for sandwich and it appears that two discrete pieces of bread are required. Which would disqualify hot dogs and other filled rolls where the bread remains joined.

Not...sure where you got mutton from, like at all. The original meat used for the cheese streak was ribeye beef. The sandwich was invented in the 1930's.


Edit: So here's one for the thread in general. Is a croque monsieur (or a croque madame, no need to be sexist on this point) a sandwich?

Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Also, a Croque Monsieur and a Croque Madame are different. Not just a naming convention. So is the Croque Mademoiselle. The Madame has an additional poached egg added on top and the Maemoiselle is without the ham with chives and other vegetables.

[Some Android]

Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain fruits commonly called berries, such as strawberries and raspberries."

Watermelons qualify.

Everything I have ever been told is a lie! What is this Orwellian nightmare I have woken up to?!? Ignorance is strength! War is peace! 2+2=5!

[Aedilred]

Not...sure where you got mutton from, like at all. The original meat used for the cheese streak was ribeye beef. The sandwich was invented in the 1930's.
Not a cheesesteak sandwich! What is your obsession with that monstrosity?! :smalltongue: The original sandwich, as invented by the Earl of Sandwich in the 18th century.

Having done a bit more research, it appears that the (possibly apocryphal) "original sandwich" did indeed contain (salt) beef.


Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Also, a Croque Monsieur and a Croque Madame are different. Not just a naming convention. So is the Croque Mademoiselle. The Madame has an additional poached egg added on top and the Maemoiselle is without the ham with chives and other vegetables.

I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

[Razade]

Not a cheesesteak sandwich! What is your obsession with that monstrosity?! :smalltongue: The original sandwich, as invented by the Earl of Sandwich in the 18thcentury.

To be fair, you went from "that monstrosity" to "the original sandwich" without any kind of mention that you were talking about two separate things.



I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

See, I don't think sandwiches are just finger food though...we have sandwiches in the U.S that aren't. The Kentucky Hot Brown for example, not one you'd really want to eat with your fingers. One could argue that the French Dip isn't a sandwich if all ingredients have to be "on the outside".

[golentan]

To be fair, you went from "that monstrosity" to "the original sandwich" without any kind of mention that you were talking about two separate things.


"Eponymous" was a pretty good indication, IMO. :smallwink:

A croque monsieur is certainly a sandwich. Many of the things people are talking about as "edge cases" are clearly sandwiches. And we're about one mention of Pineapple on Pizza from me believing that Zamasu did nothing wrong.

[Keltest]

I know they're different, but the objection to the sandwich status of both would be the same: i.e. that the filling isn't just between the bread slices but also on top of them. It seems to run counter to the generally agreed rule of sandwich-dom in the thread so far that the filling is in the sandwich*. It also means that, while you can eat it with your hands, you can't eat it without getting your hands greasy, which is a betrayal of the whole purpose of sandwiches (see the "original sandwich", above).

*I am aware that the same objection could be raised for a sandwich cake, but that's an oddity anyway.

Conceivably, you can pile lots of other things on top of sandwiches, up to and including other sandwiches. A sandwich doesn't suddenly become less of a sandwich because you stuck a toothpick with an olive on top of the bread.

[Bartmanhomer]

Anything can be a sandwich these days. So in my opinion yes a hamburger can be a sandwich. Which included a cheeseburger and veggieburger. Speaking of hamburgers, I which I have a Big Mac by now. Mmm, delicious. :smile:

[AvatarVecna]

As a Brit, I agree. I would never consider a hamburger to be a sandwich. If it wasn't cooked, it'd be a bun or a bap (or maybe barm) depending on where in the country I was. And yes, the things in Subway are definitely rolls. Or paninis if they're on crusty/French bread. Though I would add that the influence of the Subway chain has led to most people calling their products 'subs'.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, a sandwich can't be cooked. It becomes a toastie if you cook it.

How do you yanks get by with only one word for all these different foodstuffs? :smallconfused:

You see, we differentiate our amalgamations of bread and non-bread things by the stuff inside it, and possibly the kind of bread; the actual style of bread occasionally comes up, but since most places that make sandwiches all make the same style of sandwich (McDonalds has burgers, but no subs or paninis, Subway has subs and wraps, but no burgers, etc), there's basically not ever any need to specify the style of bread. The actual ingredients are what matter (and oftentimes, the kind of bread you get will usually set the style as well, but that's neither here nor there).

A much shorter answer: we don't get by with one word, we have many words for "non-bread inside bread(s)", it's just that we don't pretend the group of things that are non-bread ingredients contained by bread ingredients can't have some kind of blanket term.


Is there anyone here who would, in casual conversation or when ordering a food item, call a hamburger by the term 'sandwich'?

"I'd like a Big Mac sandwich" is something I heard with enough frequency while working/eating at McD's that it's virtually interchangable to me with "I'd like a Big Mac burger" (other variations include things like my earlier example "I'd like a #3 meal, just the sandwich/burger").


If somebody asked me directly, as you are doing now, I would answer yes. If somebody asked me if I wanted a sandwich, then came back 20 minutes later with a hamburger, I would be very confused, and possibly annoyed.

True, but while all burgers are sandwiches, not all sandwiches are burgers. If your friend asked "you want a burger?", and you said yes, and they came back and handed you a burger while saying "here's your sandwich", it'd be a **** move to lecture them on the technical definition dating back to when the style of bread in a sandwich was more important than the ingredients, and they'd be well within their rights to tell you "just shut up and eat your sandwich". :smalltongue:

[Aedilred]

See, I don't think sandwiches are just finger food though...we have sandwiches in the U.S that aren't. The Kentucky Hot Brown for example, not one you'd really want to eat with your fingers. One could argue that the French Dip isn't a sandwich if all ingredients have to be "on the outside".
I think this is the language gap again, but really the "can you eat it with your hands" thing is more of a theoretical than a practical distinction. Obviously, many sandwiches are too big to be eaten with one's hands in practice. (As an aside, I'm always baffled by people who eat burgers with a knife and fork, especially if it's a non-formal setting. In a quasi-formal setting it's just amusing).

The French Dip, I think, is a dish which contains a sandwich. It's hard to argue that the whole thing counts as a sandwich, I think; it's not like a Happy Meal is a sandwich. The Hot Brown seems like it's a sandwich only by name, but then I don't really hold with open-faced "sandwiches".


Conceivably, you can pile lots of other things on top of sandwiches, up to and including other sandwiches. A sandwich doesn't suddenly become less of a sandwich because you stuck a toothpick with an olive on top of the bread.
That's a garnish, though, rather than an integral part of the sandwich. A reuben sandwich, say, doesn't become or stop being a reuben sandwich depending on whether it has an olive-toothpick on it, whereas a croque monsieur without cheese on top is just a cheese and ham toastie. The croque is kind of a hybrid between a rarebit (not a sandwich) and a sandwich, so it could be argued as a sandwich or as a "hot bread-based dish", I think.

I am being excessively pedantic, obviously, but then that is basically the premise of this thread.


Anything can be a sandwich these days. So in my opinion yes a hamburger can be a sandwich. Which included a cheeseburger and veggieburger. Speaking of hamburgers, I which I have a Big Mac by now. Mmm, delicious. :smile:
Yeah, I think if you accept the premise that a burger is a sandwich, you can change the nature of the burger itself or add extra toppings/fillings and it's going to remain a sandwich.


"I'd like a Big Mac sandwich" is something I heard with enough frequency while working/eating at McD's that it's virtually interchangable to me with "I'd like a Big Mac burger"

Seems like both of them are wasting a word there; I just go with "I'd like a Big Mac" and they seem to understand.

[Starwulf]

I'm one of those odd Americans I guess that don't see a burger as a sandwich. For me, a sandwich is between two pieces of "normal" bread(ie: two slices of bread you'd get from a grocery store). If it's between a roll or a bun, it is it's own thing.

[AvatarVecna]

Seems like both of them are wasting a word there; I just go with "I'd like a Big Mac" and they seem to understand.

A fair point, but neither is wrong just because the go into more detail.

[tonberrian]

So if a burger is not a sandwich because it's in a bun, what would you call a chicken "sandwich" that is in the same bun?

[Aedilred]

So if a burger is not a sandwich because it's in a bun, what would you call a chicken "sandwich" that is in the same bun?
A chicken burger?

[Liquor Box]

A chicken burger?

Or a McChicken

[tonberrian]

Or a McChicken

That's their cheapest one, but they also offer a Buttermilk Crispy Chicken Sandwich (http://fastfoodgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/h-mcdonalds-Buttermilk-Crispy-Chicken-Sandwich.png) and an Artisan Grilled Chicken Sandwich (http://www.grubgrade.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Artisan-Grilled-Chicken-McDonalds.jpg).

[Bartmanhomer]

I think this is the language gap again, but really the "can you eat it with your hands" thing is more of a theoretical than a practical distinction. Obviously, many sandwiches are too big to be eaten with one's hands in practice. (As an aside, I'm always baffled by people who eat burgers with a knife and fork, especially if it's a non-formal setting. In a quasi-formal setting it's just amusing).

The French Dip, I think, is a dish which contains a sandwich. It's hard to argue that the whole thing counts as a sandwich, I think; it's not like a Happy Meal is a sandwich. The Hot Brown seems like it's a sandwich only by name, but then I don't really hold with open-faced "sandwiches".


That's a garnish, though, rather than an integral part of the sandwich. A reuben sandwich, say, doesn't become or stop being a reuben sandwich depending on whether it has an olive-toothpick on it, whereas a croque monsieur without cheese on top is just a cheese and ham toastie. The croque is kind of a hybrid between a rarebit (not a sandwich) and a sandwich, so it could be argued as a sandwich or as a "hot bread-based dish", I think.

I am being excessively pedantic, obviously, but then that is basically the premise of this thread.


Yeah, I think if you accept the premise that a burger is a sandwich, you can change the nature of the burger itself or add extra toppings/fillings and it's going to remain a sandwich.Yes all you have to do is to get some bread,add condiments, add meat. And you have yourself a sandwich. I believe a chiliburger is part of the sandwich family as well.

[Knaight]

Yes all you have to do is to get some bread,add condiments, add meat. And you have yourself a sandwich. I believe a chiliburger is part of the sandwich family as well.

So if I have a giant pile of vegetables between two pieces of bread, plus various condiments (lets say mustard and mayo), that's not a sandwich because it doesn't have meat? This seems like a pretty unique definition.

[Bartmanhomer]

So if I have a giant pile of vegetables between two pieces of bread, plus various condiments (lets say mustard and mayo), that's not a sandwich because it doesn't have meat? This seems like a pretty unique definition.
It still a sandwich meat or no meat.

[Fri]

An interesting thing to consider that's touched here a couple of time already is that taxonomy isn't actually about separating things into rigid boxes, but to put things into categories for easier comparison. For example, in biology, the description of "species" that's taught to us in school is very inaccurate and way too broad. But even with the latest dna-based description of species, there's still too many exceptions and special cases and debates and such. But it's useful to separate things in different categories for various purpose. For example, if you have a collection of animals: Cat, Bear, Dog, Orca, Giraffe, Eagle, Shark. You can separate them to various categories. For example you can put Cat, Bear, Dog, Orca, Eagle, Shark as Carnivore and Giraffe as Herbivore if you're talking about their diet. Or you could separate them into Cat, Bear, Dog, Orca, Giraffe as mammals. Or Cat, Bear, Dog, Giraffe, Eagle, as land dwelling animals and Orca, Shark, as water dwelling animals.

So what I'm saying is, depending on the purpose of discussion, you definitely can can consider Burger a sandwich or not a sandwich.

[Bartmanhomer]

This is a good debate thread. No arguments at all. :smile:

[Peelee]

This is a good debate thread. No arguments at all. :smile:

Well, aside from the heretic who dislikes Philly cheesesteaks.

[Knaight]

Well, aside from the heretic who dislikes Philly cheesesteaks.

It makes sense to me. There are a few different versions, but the classic version involves spray on cheese. Screw. That.

[Ninja_Prawn]

For example, if you have a collection of animals: Cat, Bear, Dog, Orca, Giraffe, Eagle, Shark. You can separate them to various categories.

I thought the universally-agreed categories for the classification of animals were:

Those that belong to the emperor
Embalmed ones
Those that are trained
Suckling pigs
Mermaids (or Sirens)
Fabulous ones
Stray dogs
Those that are included in this classification
Those that tremble as if they were mad
Innumerable ones
Those drawn with a very fine camel hair brush
Et cetera
Those that have just broken the flower vase
Those that, at a distance, resemble flies
What's all this nonsense about 'herbivores' and 'mammals'?

[Fri]

Nah, it's "meat, non meat, meat but pointy"

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3039

[Algeh]

This makes me thing of how awkward I feel trying to explain to people what I'm eating when I've gone to Jack in the Box to get take out. See, I'm a vegetarian, and I figured out a while ago that at Jack in the Box you can get egg, ham, and cheese in a burger bun all day long, so I get that without the ham as a high-protein thing I can get from a fast food place if I'm in a situation where fast food makes more sense than a grocery store.

Now, in my head this is totally an egg burger, but if I actually call it that I will get odd looks, so I call it an egg sandwich (which is also confusing, because when you tell people you're eating an egg sandwich they think of egg salad sandwiches, which are totally different). It's officially called a "Breakfast Jack", which helps not at all in terms of conveying information about what kind of food I'm eating.

[Scarlet Knight]

Well, aside from the heretic who dislikes Philly cheesesteaks.

Burn the heretic! Well, actually quick char so the juices stay in...:smalltongue:

[2D8HP]

...so I call it an egg sandwich (which is also confusing, because when you tell people you're eating an egg sandwich they think of egg salad sandwiches, which are totally different)...


I've often made what I call "egg sandwich's by frying eggs and onion slices, and then having them with toast and mustard.


Burn the heretic! Well, actually quick char so the juices stay in...:smalltongue:


98 posts in and finally a hint of cannibalism!

What took so long?

[Delicious Taffy]

Burn the heretic! Well, actually quick char so the juices stay in...:smalltongue:

Charring heretics doesn't keep the juices in, it dries up the outside of them. It only seems juicier than a slower cook by comparison because the dry outside creates a contrast with the inside, which is actually just as juicy as it would be either way. Don't get me wrong, the heretic would be delicious either way, and I still enjoy them charred, but we don't need to fool ourselves into enjoying them a certain way.

All this talk of hamburgers and sandwiches is making me hungry, but it's "too early" in the morning for a burger. There's an idea for the next thread.

[Gnomvid]

As a non native English speaker (Swedish native) I would have to say no a hamburger is clearly not a sandwich as to us sandwich (Smörgås) signifies more often then not a open sandwich with cold filling on it, and not associated with anything hot other than coffe, tea or hot chocolate, unless it's a hot sandwich (varm macka) but then it would have been created the same way as a regular Smörgås and then had added cheese on top and grilled in the oven.

Smörgås which was once a fair portion now a day's only a small portion of what used to be the traditional Smörgåsbord which essentially in the beginning was a kind of starters with a range of aperitif's which later turned into the actual main meal (not sure how the aperitif's disappeared since now there's only schnapps for the pickled herring), you foreigners that can't pronounce it call it Smorgasbord instead, is actually three words Smör (butter) and Gås (Goose) Bord (table) but I guess Buttergoosetable although easier to pronounce doesn't sound quite as impressive or appetizing.

[Strigon]

Charring heretics doesn't keep the juices in, it dries up the outside of them. It only seems juicier than a slower cook by comparison because the dry outside creates a contrast with the inside, which is actually just as juicy as it would be either way. Don't get me wrong, the heretic would be delicious either way, and I still enjoy them charred, but we don't need to fool ourselves into enjoying them a certain way.

All this talk of hamburgers and sandwiches is making me hungry, but it's "too early" in the morning for a burger. There's an idea for the next thread.

2:00 in the afternoon, unless it's a barbecue (the event, not the method of cooking) in which case it can be done at noon. Neither of these times are flexible, and you're a lunatic if you eat them any earlier.

[Aedilred]

As a non native English speaker (Swedish native) I would have to say no a hamburger is clearly not a sandwich as to us sandwich (Smörgås) signifies more often then not a open sandwich with cold filling on it


Well, I think we can all agree that's clearly nonsense, given that an "open sandwich" is about as much a sandwich as a koala is a bear :smalltongue:


I guess Buttergoosetable although easier to pronounce doesn't sound quite as impressive or appetizing.
Well, not if you say it like that, but only a crazy person would :smallwink: On the other hand, "table of buttered goose" sounds amazing.

[Knaight]

Now, in my head this is totally an egg burger, but if I actually call it that I will get odd looks, so I call it an egg sandwich (which is also confusing, because when you tell people you're eating an egg sandwich they think of egg salad sandwiches, which are totally different). It's officially called a "Breakfast Jack", which helps not at all in terms of conveying information about what kind of food I'm eating.

I'd probably go with something like fried egg sandwich or similar, with the word fried replaced with something else if they did something weird with the egg.

[Peelee]

It makes sense to me. There are a few different versions, but the classic version involves spray on cheese. Screw. That.

Imean, i totally get the revulsion if y'all ate using spray cheese, but I think I found the problem here. I myself have never heard of it (and certainly no restaurant I've ever been to has had the audacity to do it) but it you're not entirely wrong (http://phillycheesesteak.com/prep-school/cheesesteaks-101/); some people apparently do do that. It's probably best of we don't talk about them in polite company.

Anyway, use provolone instead.

[Knaight]

Imean, i totally get the revulsion if y'all ate using spray cheese, but I think I found the problem here. I myself have never heard of it (and certainly no restaurant I've ever been to has had the audacity to do it) but it you're not entirely wrong (http://phillycheesesteak.com/prep-school/cheesesteaks-101/); some people apparently do do that. It's probably best of we don't talk about them in polite company.

Anyway, use provolone instead.

I've had some that I like, I'm just pointing out that spray cheese is traditional and a distaste for spray cheese entirely sensible.

[Peelee]

I've had some that I like, I'm just pointing out that spray cheese is traditional and a distaste for spray cheese entirely sensible.

Cheese spray is less traditional than white American or provolone. One might even call it "acceptable" rather than "traditional" (though I would certainly not use either). It was added purely for convenience sake, not taste.

[Red Fel]

I think the etymology is important.

First off, you have the Hamburg steak, a patty of beef. This is the literal core of the hamburger, both linguistically and physically. Hence why I refuse to acknowledge things like "chicken burger" or "turkey burger," because to my knowledge there is no German town called Chickenburg wherein locals perfected a dish composed of chopped chicken patty.

Next, you have the Sandwich, named for an 18th-century Earl of same, who famously requested that his meat be served to him between two slices of bread. (Not the first time in history that it's been done, but that's Eurocentrism for you.) Thereafter, any dish served between two slices of bread, originally meat but later including other things, became known as a sandwich. (This apparently excludes things like wraps, tacos, or other dishes involving a single wrapping, as a quick Wikipedia search has informed me.)

Now, at some point, the Hamburg steak became placed upon a slice of bread (like an open-faced sandwich) or between two pieces (like a sandwich). At that point, it seems that it was both Hamburg steak and a sandwich. Again, Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburger#History) reveals this convenient tidbit from 1896: "A distinguished favorite, only five cents, is Hamburger steak sandwich[.]"

So it seems clear that, at least at one point, it was considered to be a sandwich. The question, then, is simple: Why is it not a sandwich?

Is it the bun? Hamburgers are generally served upon some kind of roll or bun, as opposed to sliced or toasted bread. But then, so are grilled chicken sandwiches, frequently, and we have no issue calling them sandwiches. (They're not "chicken burgers," shut your heretic mouth.)

Is it the meat? There are other sandwiches with other forms of beef on them. For example, a corned beef sandwich is a sandwich with beef. Does the fact that the beef is chopped patty instead of sliced cold cut render it somehow different?

The only reason I could think of, then, that a hamburger would not be a sandwich, is simply that it is a hamburger. That somehow the hamburger is so distinctly itself, and nothing else, that you could never consider it anything but a hamburger. It would be like saying gelato is not merely ice cream, despite being made of the stuff; it is so distinct and unique that it could only be described as gelato.

[Flickerdart]

As an object composed exclusively of meat and cheese, a KFC Double Down is most accurately categorized as a charcuterie platter.

[MikelaC1]

As an object composed exclusively of meat and cheese, a KFC Double Down is most accurately categorized as a charcuterie platter.

The KFC Double Down is more properly categorized as "walking cholesterol induced heart attack", right up there with its second cousin, the poutine.

[Nepenthe]

Looks around.
...
"Monte Cristo"
Runs.

[Flickerdart]

The KFC Double Down is more properly categorized as "walking cholesterol induced heart attack", right up there with its second cousin, the poutine.

Absurd! I will not have the poutine slandered like that! It is a proper, balanced meal - potatoes, cheese, and gravy. Starch, carbs, and fats. Meat, dairy, and veg.

[thorgrim29]

You can add all sorts of things to a poutine too, like onions, steak, smoked meat, mushrooms, bacon, sausages, fried chicken, etc... You can get all food groups in one blob. Personally I like smoked meat or onions, steak and spicy mayo... mmmmm I just ate and I'm hungry again.

Anyway, I'd say that unless you get really strict about your definitions in order to specifically exclude it a burger is a sandwich

[Spojaz]

The KFC Double Down is more properly categorized as "walking cholesterol induced heart attack", right up there with its second cousin, the poutine.

I never understood the infamy of the double down. The only difference between the double down and a chicken cordon bleu (a centuries old meal that is served at restaurants with dress codes) is it has bacon instead of ham. Yet somehow marketing it as a decadent sandwich grabbed hold of the imagination of the internet and it is now seen as the low water mark for unhealthy, american, fast food excess. Does no one else see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Aedilred]

I think the etymology is important.

First off, you have the Hamburg steak, a patty of beef. This is the literal core of the hamburger, both linguistically and physically. Hence why I refuse to acknowledge things like "chicken burger" or "turkey burger," because to my knowledge there is no German town called Chickenburg wherein locals perfected a dish composed of chopped chicken patty.
I tend towards the prescriptive in my linguistic views and even I think you lost that battle an awfully long time ago.

I grew up calling the item in question a "beef burger"; that term was familiar enough that when I first encountered the term "hamburger" (probably in an American TV show or other media) I had to ask what it was and whether it was a burger made of ham. The original etymology is interesting, but since it's been adopted into English it hasn't been relevant for decades. I can't imagine there are many if any people alive who distinctly remember a time when the "hamburger" was the only type of 'burger.

Eurocentrism regarding the naming of the "sandwich", certainly, but there's an Americentrism to some of the rest of your post. The "burger" variety of the "chicken sandwich" is not uncontroversially a sandwich in the UK for the same reasons as a hamburger: it would more likely be called a chicken roll or, indeed, a chicken burger, because the bread isn't sliced. In these parts, it's whether or not the bread is slices of bread, or a roll or other loaf that's simply been bisected, that's important in determining whether something is a sandwich or something else (usually, a "roll").

It does seem to be a transatlantic divide as much as anything, really.

[tyckspoon]

I never understood the infamy of the double down. The only difference between the double down and a chicken cordon bleu (a centuries old meal that is served at restaurants with dress codes) is it has bacon instead of ham. Yet somehow marketing it as a decadent sandwich grabbed hold of the imagination of the internet and it is now seen as the low water mark for unhealthy, american, fast food excess. Does no one else see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

That's a pretty fair point; if you divided the Double Down in half and presented it on a plate with a fork and knife, nobody would look at it twice aside from maybe the standard comment about huge American portion sizes in having two pieces of chicken instead of one (plus possibly side items to make a more varied/complete meal presentation.) Heck, if you go with one of the grilled variations instead of the breaded and fried, it'd be perceived as 'health' food or at least permissible in a number of popular American diets; low/no-carb and/or gluten has been a pretty strong trend for a while. Americans seem to have trouble using spices and herbs for flavor, tho, so the thing *does* have a rather staggering amount of sodium.

I guess most of the reaction to it is not what the item is so much as it seems like an expression of stereotypically American uncouthness and impatience, that we would take what should be a plated dinner and turn it into a sandwich to be eaten out of hand? (Doesn't explain why, according to Wiki, the Double Down was a successful menu offering in every country where they tried to sell it.)

[Dr.Samurai]

This makes me thing of how awkward I feel trying to explain to people what I'm eating when I've gone to Jack in the Box to get take out. See, I'm a vegetarian, and I figured out a while ago that at Jack in the Box you can get egg, ham, and cheese in a burger bun all day long, so I get that without the ham as a high-protein thing I can get from a fast food place if I'm in a situation where fast food makes more sense than a grocery store.

Now, in my head this is totally an egg burger, but if I actually call it that I will get odd looks, so I call it an egg sandwich (which is also confusing, because when you tell people you're eating an egg sandwich they think of egg salad sandwiches, which are totally different). It's officially called a "Breakfast Jack", which helps not at all in terms of conveying information about what kind of food I'm eating.
Here in NYC, when we can squeeze breakfast in at the food trucks on the corner, it's simply called an egg and cheese on a bun. You order it as such, and if someone asks what you're eating you say "egg and cheese on a bun". It's the classic breakfast on the go here, and is the default. Meaning, if you want a meat you'd say "Let me get an egg and cheese on a bun with bacon" or "with sausage".

A hamburger is certainly a sandwich by definition, but most Americans (who understand language better than the rest of the world it seems :smalltongue: ) wouldn't say "I'm hungry for a sandwich" if they're looking to eat a burger.

[Some Android]

This is a good debate thread. No arguments at all. :smile:

Yeah I'm kind of surprised this topic I started has gone on for so long especially given the subject matter.

[tyckspoon]

A hamburger is certainly a sandwich by definition, but most Americans (who understand language better than the rest of the world it seems :smalltongue: ) wouldn't say "I'm hungry for a sandwich" if they're looking to eat a burger.

Sure, in about the same way you wouldn't ask for 'a sandwich' when you specifically had a Reuben in mind, or a cheesesteak, or a Cuban, or any of the other specifically-named kinds of sandwiches. It's easier and more accurate communication to name the particular sandwich you have in mind, burgers are just a particularly ubiquitous and relatively standardized (hot patty composed of ground or chopped items, typically beef but could be chicken, turkey, vegetables, etc) variety of sandwich.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah I'm kind of surprised this topic I started has gone on for so long especially given the subject matter.

I mean a chance to be pointlessly pedantic is like catnip for nerds so you shouldn't be.

[sktarq]

It is a sandwich, an offal sandwich

[Liquor Box]

I tend towards the prescriptive in my linguistic views and even I think you lost that battle an awfully long time ago.

I grew up calling the item in question a "beef burger"; that term was familiar enough that when I first encountered the term "hamburger" (probably in an American TV show or other media) I had to ask what it was and whether it was a burger made of ham. The original etymology is interesting, but since it's been adopted into English it hasn't been relevant for decades. I can't imagine there are many if any people alive who distinctly remember a time when the "hamburger" was the only type of 'burger.

Eurocentrism regarding the naming of the "sandwich", certainly, but there's an Americentrism to some of the rest of your post. The "burger" variety of the "chicken sandwich" is not uncontroversially a sandwich in the UK for the same reasons as a hamburger: it would more likely be called a chicken roll or, indeed, a chicken burger, because the bread isn't sliced. In these parts, it's whether or not the bread is slices of bread, or a roll or other loaf that's simply been bisected, that's important in determining whether something is a sandwich or something else (usually, a "roll").

It does seem to be a transatlantic divide as much as anything, really.

Is it not called a hamburger at English McDonalds outlets?

[Coidzor]

The "burger" variety of the "chicken sandwich" is not uncontroversially a sandwich in the UK for the same reasons as a hamburger: it would more likely be called a chicken roll or, indeed, a chicken burger, because the bread isn't sliced

So you'd be unable to use words to distinguish between a pan-fried patty of minced chicken meat and a slab of chicken breast that had been breaded and deep-fried?

[factotum]

Is it not called a hamburger at English McDonalds outlets?

Yes, but McDonalds is an American company so we expect them to call stuff weird names. :smalltongue:

[Some Android]

I mean a chance to be pointlessly pedantic is like catnip for nerds so you shouldn't be.

Okay. Well not wanting to derail my thread too much do you consider cereal to be soup?

[sktarq]

One of the main problems is "hamburger" no longer means much even in the US. It is term most commonly used for things more properly known as ground beef or mince. Hamburger Helper may hold some blame for this but between burger being used by turkeys, soybeans, and gardens on one side and the use of hamburger (and hamburger meat) for ground beef I don't think the term hamburger stands up well enough as a term to organize things by it.

It is fast becoming the food equivalent of a wastebin taxon. Which considering how the meat is derived from the animal is somewhat appropriate

[thorgrim29]

Okay. Well not wanting to derail my thread too much do you consider cereal to be soup?

Well played... I'd say no because soup has to be cooked, which might make oatmeal soup...

[Razade]

Well played... I'd say no because soup has to be cooked, which might make oatmeal soup...

Soup doesn't have to be cooked. Gaspacho is a soup and it doesn't have to have any cooked ingredients in it at all.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah but gaspacho is terrible though

[sktarq]

Also I would say one could not have a grain based soup.

Take grain, do X to it (make corn flakes or shreddies or whatnot in this example), and add liquid is such a core component to so many highly specific cooking techniques (sauces and baking to start) that the use of generalistic term soup would be improper to include as suddenly "milk soup" issues would be intruding into cake recipes and the like.

[Razade]

Also I would say one could not have a grain based soup.

Take grain, do X to it (make corn flakes or shreddies or whatnot in this example), and add liquid is such a core component to so many highly specific cooking techniques (sauces and baking to start) that the use of generalistic term soup would be improper to include as suddenly "milk soup" issues would be intruding into cake recipes and the like.

Beef and Barley Soup? Chicken and Rice? Corn Chowder? The Three Sister's Soup (Corn).

[Aedilred]

Is it not called a hamburger at English McDonalds outlets?
Maybe, but I didn't eat at McDonalds much as a child, and indeed even now I wouldn't be able to make a confident assertion whether or not they call any food there a "hamburger" without going to one and checking. (Though it seems they might, from factotum's post above). It might even have been in a McDs that I first encountered and queried the term; I'm honestly not sure.


So you'd be unable to use words to distinguish between a pan-fried patty of minced chicken meat and a slab of chicken breast that had been breaded and deep-fried?
Well, I could use some of the words you just did. They are words. But, no, I'd call both of them a "chicken burger" and I'm pretty sure that places like KFC and Nando's call the latter that too. Mind, I think the only time I've ever encountered minced chicken was in a curry, so it's never had a reason to come up.

[Some Android]

Yeah but gaspacho is terrible though

The quality of the soup does not change the fact it is a soup. So cereal still could be a soup.

[Razade]

It's the same as a hamburger being a sandwich. If I ordered soup and someone brought me frosted flakes I'd be annoyed with them. Same as if I ordered a sandwich and they brought me a burger (actually I'd probably be ok with that, I like burgers). But soup could be a cereal and hamburgers just are sandwiches despite what people may want to argue.

[Bartmanhomer]

It's a bird, it's a plane, It's Super Hamburgerman. :smile:

[LughSpear]

And that's why I don't categorize my food I just let it be it.

I think that if we stopped categorizing people and stuff we would be a lot happier since we wouldn't argue about what fit or don't fit in that category since the lines tend to be bluer sometimes.

[sktarq]

Beef and Barley Soup? Chicken and Rice? Corn Chowder? The Three Sister's Soup (Corn).

None of those stands the grain by itself in the way cereal does. Cereals could probably be used as part of a soup (creme of wheat for example)

So I call your counter-examples balderdash

[Coidzor]

Cereals could probably be used as part of a soup (creme of wheat for example)

What, porridge is a soup now?

[sktarq]

What, porridge is a soup now?

No.

Expressly not as per my uppage post

But like a roux is common base of a sauce a porridge like mass (esp if you use stock instead of water) could be a stage of creating a soup.

[Razade]

None of those stands the grain by itself in the way cereal does. Cereals could probably be used as part of a soup (creme of wheat for example)

So I call your counter-examples balderdash

Corn chowder's main ingredient and only important ingredient is corn. Three Sister's main ingredient is corn. Your assertion that a soup can't be "grain based" is invalidated just by these two. The barley and rice in the other two are a major ingredient. So important that get major billing in the name of the dish. Without them they wouldn't be the same soup.

Your counter-counter argument is balderdash.

[sktarq]

*Researches corn based soup*

Hmmm

Point well made. Touche

I still the theory hold on the base the general cereal/soup issue interferes with baking/sauces etc in usage. But an important exception may have to be carved out for corn.

As for barley and beef and the like I would say that without the beef it would very likely be a cereal but without the barley it would still be a soup.

[Razade]

A soup with barley and vegetables becomes cereral even though there's no milk involved? It just sounds, to me, like you're clinging to a weird definition at this point to avoid admitting you're classification is based off faulty reasoning.:smalltongue:

[Knaight]

And that's why I don't categorize my food I just let it be it.

I think that if we stopped categorizing people and stuff we would be a lot happier since we wouldn't argue about what fit or don't fit in that category since the lines tend to be bluer sometimes.

Yeah, because basically eliminating all nouns makes language functional.

[Razade]

Yeah, because basically eliminating all nouns makes language functional.

Not only that but because we classify foods, that's why we have racism. Or something.

[sktarq]

A soup with barley and vegetables becomes cereral even though there's no milk involved? It just sounds, to me, like you're clinging to a weird definition at this point to avoid admitting you're classification is based off faulty reasoning.:smalltongue:

No I'm not. It would be a porridge eventually, or a veg soup if it had those to begin with.


I could make an argument that the fry batter for deep fried articles is a soup. It isn't one in a functional sense, so some kind of demarcation is necessary or both words start to loose meaning.

[factotum]

Maybe, but I didn't eat at McDonalds much as a child, and indeed even now I wouldn't be able to make a confident assertion whether or not they call any food there a "hamburger" without going to one and checking.

I think they sell *one* item called a hamburger these days--the simplest, cheapest burger they do. Everything else is a cheeseburger, or a BBQ, or a Big Mac, or what-have-you. I think they also call one of their chicken burgers a "McChicken Sandwich", even though it's in the same sort of burger bun as everything else.

[Flickerdart]

What's more ridiculous - calling a hamburger a sandwich, or calling McDonalds a restaurant?

[Aedilred]

What's more ridiculous - calling a hamburger a sandwich, or calling McDonalds a restaurant?

It is somethig I try to avoid doing, but it's also hard to see what else it is. A café, maybe, or a public canteen? A burger bar? I may have made that last one up.

Years ago I played a game where for rules purposes it became necessary to define "restaurants" as opposed to other venues that served food, and after a few false starts we settled on the difference being that at a proper restaurant you require the attention of staff in order to be seated. That worked largely because of the rules of the game in question, but it did do a good job of setting aside what instinctively feels like a restaurant rather than something else.

[sktarq]

It's a joint. Fast food joint, burger joint, complete with zoot suits.

[Peelee]

It's a joint. Fast food joint, burger joint, complete with zoot suits.

Man, I want zoot suits to make a comeback.

[Keltest]

It is somethig I try to avoid doing, but it's also hard to see what else it is. A café, maybe, or a public canteen? A burger bar? I may have made that last one up.

Years ago I played a game where for rules purposes it became necessary to define "restaurants" as opposed to other venues that served food, and after a few false starts we settled on the difference being that at a proper restaurant you require the attention of staff in order to be seated. That worked largely because of the rules of the game in question, but it did do a good job of setting aside what instinctively feels like a restaurant rather than something else.

A particularly large near-food dispenser.

[Appleciders]

Yes, it is a sandwich.

[Aedilred]

Is it not called a hamburger at English McDonalds outlets?


I think they sell *one* item called a hamburger these days--the simplest, cheapest burger they do. Everything else is a cheeseburger, or a BBQ, or a Big Mac, or what-have-you. I think they also call one of their chicken burgers a "McChicken Sandwich", even though it's in the same sort of burger bun as everything else.

I was passing McDonalds today and had five minutes to kill so actually went in to check, and can confirm the above: there is one item called a "hamburger", which is the most basic burger on the menu; everything else has its own name, and even when it's a "burger" it's not a "hamburger".

[Shamash]

Is it weird I only like my burger with meat, cheese and nothing else?

No tomatos, salads or sauces.

[Keltest]

Is it weird I only like my burger with meat, cheese and nothing else?

No tomatos, salads or sauces.

No. I only have ketchup on mine. Anything else overloads me.

[Aedilred]

While there is something great about the simplicity of the plain bacon cheeseburger with no sauce, salad or anything, I will usually add some. But I don't think it's weird not to.

I have a friend who likes his burgers aggressively plain. No sauce, cheese, salad, anything. Just burger, bap, nothing else. Maybe, if he's feeling extravagant, some salt. But that is more down to extreme fussiness than some kind of desire for minimalism.

[Knaight]

I'm a big fan of throwing on every available vegetable when it comes to sandwiches of any sort (including burgers), but I wouldn't call the no vegetable approach weird.

[Gnomvid]

I'm a big fan of throwing on every available vegetable when it comes to sandwiches of any sort (including burgers), but I wouldn't call the no vegetable approach weird.

Does that include couch potatoes?

[Fri]

What I can't stand in general is ketchup. Basically it tastes so strong that it overpower any other flavor. So if I order burgers (or any other sandwich. Or Tacos, whatever) I always say hold the ketchup.

[Gnomvid]

What I can't stand in general is ketchup. Basically it tastes so strong that it overpower any other flavor. So if I order burgers (or any other sandwich. Or Tacos, whatever) I always say hold the ketchup.

Vinegar for me (yes I know there's vinegar in Ketchup but not enough to put me off it unless it's pure ketchup and not ketchup used as a condiment), haven't actually been to any chippy outside of Scotland but here it's almost like "wud yous leik sa' chips wid yer vinegar?" as for the people that ask for vinegar get (and I swear to what ever you hold holy) half a litre of the bloomin stuff drenched over their fries or chips.
For me spirit vinegar is great but only for pickled products that should be the one and only use of vinegar.

Another really puzzling thing is that here in the UK burgers do not come with the classic burger sauce, not even at Micky D or B king, but only ketchup and mayo, anybody else find that strange?
Any place in Sweden that serves burgers the classic burger sauce is part of the burger as much as the salad and tomatoes unless you specifically ask to have it excluded, on the other hand some native fast food places also offer a range of additional sauces for dipping your fries in.

[Aedilred]

Vinegar for me (yes I know there's vinegar in Ketchup but not enough to put me off it unless it's pure ketchup and not ketchup used as a condiment), haven't actually been to any chippy outside of Scotland but here it's almost like "wud yous leik sa' chips wid yer vinegar?" as for the people that ask for vinegar get (and I swear to what ever you hold holy) half a litre of the bloomin stuff drenched over their fries or chips.
For me spirit vinegar is great but only for pickled products that should be the one and only use of vinegar.

I'm not a particular fan of ketchup or vinegar, certainly not when used as condiments in their own right. Once I was in Inverness and went to a chippy; I was already off vinegar by that point but my friend asked for some, and was unprepared for the volume he received. He had a pie in there which was vinegar-soaked and disintegrating by the time we were able to eat.

[Flickerdart]

I'm a big fan of throwing on every available vegetable when it comes to sandwiches of any sort (including burgers), but I wouldn't call the no vegetable approach weird.

This was what I did as a college kid, before learning to cook. Two slices of toast, and then a stack of whatever I had in between. Lettuce, salad, pickles, mustard, deli meats, cheese, cabbage, leftover chicken. Stack until sandwich height matches diameter of mouth.

[Peelee]

This was what I did as a college kid, before learning to cook. Two slices of toast, and then a stack of whatever I had in between. Lettuce, salad, pickles, mustard, deli meats, cheese, cabbage, leftover chicken. Stack until sandwich height matches diameter of mouth.

That's the American way.

[Bartmanhomer]

That's the American way.

G.I. Burger!

[SaintRidley]

Technically a sandwich, though you'd never call it one.


Is it weird I only like my burger with meat, cheese and nothing else?

No tomatos, salads or sauces.

Not too weird. I prefer mine with meat, cheese, at least one more meat from a different animal (fried chicken breast, chicken nuggets, bacon, pulled pork, hot dog, bratwurst, etc. depending on the availability), and bbq sauce (add honey mustard if chicken is present). Then no vegetables. That's probably far weirder than your position.

[Knaight]

This was what I did as a college kid, before learning to cook. Two slices of toast, and then a stack of whatever I had in between. Lettuce, salad, pickles, mustard, deli meats, cheese, cabbage, leftover chicken. Stack until sandwich height matches diameter of mouth.

I know how to cook, but my love of vegetables has stuck with me from an early age, and if I'm eating a burger at all I'm almost certainly eating out (my personal cooking only rarely involves meat at all, and never involves it heavily).

[LughSpear]

I have a friend who likes his burgers aggressively plain. No sauce, cheese, salad, anything. Just burger, bap, nothing else. Maybe, if he's feeling extravagant, some salt. But that is more down to extreme fussiness than some kind of desire for minimalism.

That's what I normally have, the only reason I don't eat it very often is because I don't like paying full price for less things, but at home taht's the only way I eat.

I also like to eat just the burger with a fork and a knife.

[Aedilred]

That's what I normally have, the only reason I don't eat it very often is because I don't like paying full price for less things, but at home taht's the only way I eat.

I also like to eat just the burger with a fork and a knife.

Well that's just crazy.

[LughSpear]

Well that's just crazy.

I mean just the meat, not with bread. I'm not that insane yet. :D

[Stryyke]

That's what I normally have, the only reason I don't eat it very often is because I don't like paying full price for less things, but at home taht's the only way I eat.

I also like to eat just the burger with a fork and a knife.

LOL. I do the same thing. I get burgers, cook them, maybe put some cheese on it, and eat it with a fork. I didn't know anyone else did that. Most people think I'm crazy. LOL

[LughSpear]

LOL. I do the same thing. I get burgers, cook them, maybe put some cheese on it, and eat it with a fork. I didn't know anyone else did that. Most people think I'm crazy. LOL

Yay! Best burger friends forever. /o/ \o\

[Stryyke]

Yay! Best burger friends forever. /o/ \o\

If you want to try something really good, get some Spade L Ranch Beef Marinade. Since you like it plain, don't use a whole lot. 2-3 pinches on either side of the burger, and spread over the surface is more than enough. I usually find 1 pinch not quite enough. Fantastic flavor.

[Spacewolf]

LOL. I do the same thing. I get burgers, cook them, maybe put some cheese on it, and eat it with a fork. I didn't know anyone else did that. Most people think I'm crazy. LOL

There's a fish and chips shop near me that does that except they put the cheese in the middle of the burger so that when you cut it open all the cheese comes out.

[Drascin]

I mean just the meat, not with bread. I'm not that insane yet. :D

Eating burgers on a plate is not weird. It's perfectly reasonable behaviour. Burgers are meat and can still be eaten as such.

In fact, honestly, it often feels like a waste to put so much stuff around a burger when it's a good one.

[Aedilred]

Eating burgers on a plate is not weird. It's perfectly reasonable behaviour. Burgers are meat and can still be eaten as such.

In fact, honestly, it often feels like a waste to put so much stuff around a burger when it's a good one.

But if that's the case, it's already a waste to grind up the meat and turn it into a burger when it'd make an even better steak.

[lio45]

It's a joint. Fast food joint, burger joint, complete with zoot suits.

Can a "joint" be a chain too?

McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, etc. are all "restaurants" in French (my native language) so I've always been calling them like than in English while in the U.S. (I probably only rarely had to refer to them as such in my entire life, though) ... it's weird to call these places restaurants?

By our standards, anything where you can sit to eat in is a restaurant. Otherwise, it's going to be called a food truck or a takeout counter.

"Restaurant with service" would distinguish that class of place from a mere "restaurant" such as a McDonald's location in a context like Aedilred's game.

[Aedilred]

The key differentiation we were trying to make in the rules was between restaurants and pubs which serve food. Most pubs these days serve food to the table, even if it's just bar snacks,. For added confusion, some pubs have a "pub" section and a "restaurant" section but serve food to both.

Last time I was in the US I was too young to be spending any time in bars, so I don't know exactly how things work there.

I don't think it's weird per se to call McDonald's a restaurant but it's also not uncommon for people to sneer at McDonalds' when they do. I think the difference is in the level of expected formality, but it's hard to pin down with any real certainty.

[Razade]

Pubs are a pretty rare thing here as they exist in the U.K. Really, just stand alone bars are pretty rare these days at least from what I see. Most places serve food even if they serve drink. Even if it's just chicken wings and fries.

[Coidzor]

There's a fish and chips shop near me that does that except they put the cheese in the middle of the burger so that when you cut it open all the cheese comes out.

Some folks call those "Juicy Lucies," they can be pretty fun.


But if that's the case, it's already a waste to grind up the meat and turn it into a burger when it'd make an even better steak.

Sure, if it's a steakburger, and even then, a well-made steakburger is a lot better than a crappy quality steak. A lot of ground beef isn't made from meat that would make for good steak and instead would be made into roasts of various types.


Not too weird. I prefer mine with meat, cheese, at least one more meat from a different animal (fried chicken breast, chicken nuggets, bacon, pulled pork, hot dog, bratwurst, etc. depending on the availability), and bbq sauce (add honey mustard if chicken is present). Then no vegetables. That's probably far weirder than your position.

I'm going to have to make an unholy abomination of a sandwich soon, then.

The real question is whether I'll do it at home or combine a Hardee's/Carl Jr.'s burger with a Chik-Fil-A sandwich or try to do it entirely in-house. Or just do it at home.

[Algeh]

Eating burgers on a plate is not weird. It's perfectly reasonable behaviour. Burgers are meat and can still be eaten as such.

In fact, honestly, it often feels like a waste to put so much stuff around a burger when it's a good one.

Growing up, we'd call that a "hamburger steak", and it's something we'd eat at home for dinner reasonably often, usually with some sort of veggie side.

My mother has since gone gluten free, so she'll regularly order burgers with no buns when we're at burger-focused restaurants. This tends to get seen as mildly odd, but she's never had trouble getting them to serve them that way.

[Peelee]

Can a "joint" be a chain too?

McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, etc. are all "restaurants" in French (my native language) so I've always been calling them like than in English while in the U.S. (I probably only rarely had to refer to them as such in my entire life, though) ... it's weird to call these places restaurants?

By our standards, anything where you can sit to eat in is a restaurant. Otherwise, it's going to be called a food truck or a takeout counter.

"Restaurant with service" would distinguish that class of place from a mere "restaurant" such as a McDonald's location in a context like Aedilred's game.

Yep, chains can be joints. And everything else you said is pretty accurate for over here, too. "Joint" is kind of a way to be derisive towards them without actually being derisive, if that makes any sense. Differentiating between "restaurant with service," as you put it (because even some of those can be crappy, especially if they're chaims). It's not weird to call, say, Burger King a restaurant, but most people will just say the places by name - eg, "do you wanna go to Taco Bell" instead of "do you wanna go to a restaurant."

[Flickerdart]

Growing up, we'd call that a "hamburger steak", and it's something we'd eat at home for dinner reasonably often, usually with some sort of veggie side.

This is a thing in Japan. Burger, fried in sauce, served with the lettuce and tomatoes as a side.

[Peelee]

Growing up, we'd call that a "hamburger steak", and it's something we'd eat at home for dinner reasonably often, usually with some sort of veggie side.

I know it's not the same, but for some reason, "hamburger steak" just makes me think of chicken-fried steak.

[Jofry]

Of course, YES. Hamburger is a sandwich

[FinnLassie]

No, I don't. Hamburger's a hamburger. Sandwich is a sandwich. Hot dog is a hot dog. They include bread and similar attributes, but they're not the same.

[sktarq]

Here is part of it

If a restaurant has one or two burgers on menu I would expect to find them in the sandwich section.

If they had 6-8 burgers I would expect they pull them into their own section. Before I would expect they do so for anything else originally found in the sandwich section (except 1) in specialty restaurants- then the specialty should get one 2) wraps)

So yeah I think that is part of the idea of a hamburger is/is not a sandwich. Because I don't think I'm alone in that feeling.

[Zurvan]

I don't think so.

Just because they have something in common that doesn't make them the same thing. Just like, an owl is not an eagle because they both have wings. A burger is NOT a sandwich just because they are both a meal consisting of stuff between two pieces of bread.

[Razade]

I don't think so.

Just because they have something in common that doesn't make them the same thing. Just like, an owl is not an eagle because they both have wings. A burger is NOT a sandwich just because they are both a meal consisting of stuff between two pieces of bread.

Except the analogy fails because they're both birds. Hamburgers and certain sandwiches aren't that much different like a pattie melt for instance.

For your analogy to work it'd have to be something like ths. Sandwich is the family. Hamburger is the Genus.

[Stryyke]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, traditional hamburgers are a subset of sandwich. Of course it contradicts itself too. It says that a sandwich is "An item of food consisting of two pieces of bread with a filling between them, eaten as a light meal." Of course it then mentions "open sandwiches" which only have one slice of bread, and are usually covered in a gravy. Isn't English fun.

[Strigon]

Except the analogy fails because they're both birds. Hamburgers and certain sandwiches aren't that much different like a pattie melt for instance.

For your analogy to work it'd have to be something like ths. Sandwich is the family. Hamburger is the Genus.

Or one could simply change it to bats and eagles.

[Razade]

Or one could simply change it to bats and eagles.

Right but that still fails. Burgers have more in common with a sandwich than a bat does with an eagle. The connection between the latter is that they fly. But a burger isn't just "two pieces of bread". The fillings in sandwiches (the aforementioned patty melt) and burgers aren't just similar. They're often the same. Meat, veggies, spreads. The quibble is over the meat patty and that makes no sense.

[sktarq]

Also over a whole bread unit (roll or bun) vs a slice or a larger loaf of bread. . . And the fact it may be more logical to bend to a societal norm that a burger is and is not a sandwich for the benefit of clear communication and civil cohabitation (which is part of the point of having words with common definitions anyway) over some Platonic ideal of a hamburger existing in a logical culinary taxon system.

If language was really logical autistics wouldn't have half the trouble they do but trying to create logic where there really isn't one. Language is more like a glass than a crystal.

[Zurvan]

Except the analogy fails because they're both birds. Hamburgers and certain sandwiches aren't that much different like a pattie melt for instance.

For your analogy to work it'd have to be something like ths. Sandwich is the family. Hamburger is the Genus.

They both are birds just as they are both meals. >:)

[Razade]

They both are birds just as they are both meals. >:)

Well! Pad Thai is a sandwich then. Both meals.

[Zurvan]

Well! Pad Thai is a sandwich then. Both meals.

You misunderstood me, let me make a chart to see if you can get it now.

Birds -> Eagle.
Birds -> Owl.

Although they are birds:

Eagle is not the same thing as Owl.
Owl is not the same thing as Eagle.

Meals -> Burger.
Meals -> Sandwich.
Meals -> Pad Thai.

Although they are meals:

Burger is not the same as Pad Thai or sandwich.
Sandwich is not the same as burger or Pad Thai.
Pad Thai is not the same as burger and sandwich.

Got it now? I can draw if you want. :)

[aloysius]

of course it's ham

[aloysius]

If it ain't got bread it ain't a samich

[Coidzor]

I know it's not the same, but for some reason, "hamburger steak" just makes me think of chicken-fried steak.

It's one of the alternate names as I recall. Though I believe country fried steak is more common.

A chuckwagon is sometimes what they call taking a hamburger patty and then breading it and pan-frying it like a country-fried or chicken-fried steak.


This is a thing in Japan. Burger, fried in sauce, served with the lettuce and tomatoes as a side.

Not just in Japan, at least when it comes to having a ground beef patty that is pan-fried and then cooked in sauce, generally in the same skillet or frying pan that the patty was fried in.

[Stryyke]

You misunderstood me, let me make a chart to see if you can get it now.

Birds -> Eagle.
Birds -> Owl.

Although they are birds:

Eagle is not the same thing as Owl.
Owl is not the same thing as Eagle.

Meals -> Burger.
Meals -> Sandwich.
Meals -> Pad Thai.

Although they are meals:

Burger is not the same as Pad Thai or sandwich.
Sandwich is not the same as burger or Pad Thai.
Pad Thai is not the same as burger and sandwich.

Got it now? I can draw if you want. :)

It could also be

Meals -> Sandwich -> Burger
Meals -> Pad Thai

And a burger would still be a meal.

[Zurvan]

It could also be

Meals -> Sandwich -> Burger
Meals -> Pad Thai

And a burger would still be a meal.

And Pad Thai still wouldn’t be a sandwich.

[Stryyke]

And Pad Thai still wouldn’t be a sandwich.

Of course.

[Rockphed]

Seconded.
Today, it's hamburgers. Tomorrow, hot dogs and sausages; soon enough, pizza is an open-faced sandwich!

Seriously, though, those things surrounding a burger? Yeah, they're not slices of bread. They're two halves of a bun. There is a difference, and I challenge anyone who cares to disagree to a round of fisticuffs!

I'll take that round of fisticuffs. Why? Because a bun is bread. And in order to put the meat inside, it must be sliced. Ergo, the traditional hamburger sits upon sliced bread.


Yeah, exactly - there's technically not much of a difference, but I tend to think that a sandwich is
a) a cold meal, unless it's grilled cheese.
b) flat, not like a hamburger bun.
c) not involving beef

By the way, I am Canadian, so this American regional use thing does not apply to me.

On another note, I am amused by the fact that there are multiple pages of forum argument about this when we mostly seem to be agreeing with eachother. GiantITP in a nutshell!

A sandwich is generally composed of 2 or more pieces of bread with some sort of filling between. As noted above, rolls, buns and biscuits are all bread. Sandwiches typically use cold vegetables as filling. The bread is typically either served cold, or toasted separately, except in the case of paninis and other grilled sandwiches (grilled cheese being the most common, but I have seen and made grilled tuna and grilled BLT).

The real question is "is schwarma a sandwich"?


But if that's the case, it's already a waste to grind up the meat and turn it into a burger when it'd make an even better steak.

As a note, you can make a hamburger out of meat that would not make a good steak. Connective tissue is a bad thing in a steak, but is actually desirable in a burger (at least according to shows on the food network).


Growing up, we'd call that a "hamburger steak", and it's something we'd eat at home for dinner reasonably often, usually with some sort of veggie side.

I have heard it called "Salisbury Steak", though that might have a certain sauce as a requirement.


No, I don't. Hamburger's a hamburger. Sandwich is a sandwich. Hot dog is a hot dog. They include bread and similar attributes, but they're not the same.

The difference between a hot dot and a sandwich is almost entirely the central feature of the meal. When eating a hot dog, the central feature is the sausage; the bun is just there to hold condiments in place and absorb grease. While the same could be said of a hamburger, hamburgers are more likely to have large amounts of vegetation applied between the meat and the bread. People are also more likely to care what vegetation comes on the burger whereas hot dogs typically come as just the sausage and bun.

[Flickerdart]

I'll take that round of fisticuffs. Why? Because a bun is bread. And in order to put the meat inside, it must be sliced. Ergo, the traditional hamburger sits upon sliced bread.

Indeed. The argument that meat on a bun is not a sandwich falls apart when you recall the chicken sandwich:
http://i.imgur.com/LHSYFx7.png

Only two of those aren't buns - one is a panini, and one is a baguette.

[Peelee]

Indeed. The argument that meat on a bun is not a sandwich falls apart when you recall the chicken sandwich:
http://i.imgur.com/LHSYFx7.png

Only two of those aren't buns - one is a panini, and one is a baguette.

My thought process here: "wait, panini isn't a type of bread, it's a type of sandwich. Right? I should go check to make sure. Hmmm... In many English-speaking countries, a panini or panino (from the Italian panini [paˈniːni], meaning "small bread, bread rolls") is a grilled sandwich made from bread other than sliced bread." Ok, so it's not, but it does specify bread, in a way, and- wait, the picture of a panini was sliced bread! And every time I've ordered a panini, it's been on sliced bread! Dammit, world, make up your mind!"

[Skitterbug]

What I can't stand in general is ketchup.

But is ketchup a paste, cream, or sauce?

[Keltest]

But is ketchup a paste, cream, or sauce?

or a smoothie?

[Razade]

But is ketchup a paste, cream, or sauce?

It's a non-Newtonian fluid.

[Skitterbug]

or a smoothie?

What sort of convenience stores have you been in?:smalleek:

[Aedilred]

I don't like ketchup either, come to mention it. At least not on its own with chips or the like. When mixed into thousand island sauce or the like it's ok but it's still not my favourite. To make Marie Rose I use tomato puree rather than ketchup just to avoid the weird ketchup taste. I wonder if it's just the bought variety or whether homemade ketchup would have the same effect. I've never bothered to make my own to find out.

[Stryyke]

Who knew a sandwich/burger debate could go on so long? You guys are awesome. LOL

[Bartmanhomer]

Who knew a sandwich/burger debate could go on so long? You guys are awesome. LOL

There's a reason why it's called a debate. :smile:

[Rockphed]

There's a reason why it's called a debate. :smile:

No, I'm pretty sure we are waiting for the Philly Cheese Steak Heretic to finish smoking. This is pre-dinner conversation. It fills the length of time allotted to it. :smalltongue:

You know, when I first joined the forum, there was a forum war between the righteous Nacho Army and the vile Cookie Hoard. I'm pretty sure that this thread is taking on the undertones of that sort of silliness.

As to the subject of kechup, it is tomato based sauce. If it had higher fat content, it could be a gravy. It has too many distinct ingredients (sugar, tomato paste, vinegar) to be a paste (which to my mind implies a single ingredient with spices). If it had milk, it could be a cream. Prepared mustard is also a sauce. Mayonnaise is just disgusting.

[Strigon]

As to the subject of kechup, it is tomato based sauce. If it had higher fat content, it could be a gravy.

As someone who lives around a lot of tomato farmers, and a couple ketchup factories, making ketchup into a gravy can get you the death penalty 'round these parts.

The rest is all good, though, if used properly.

[Bartmanhomer]

No, I'm pretty sure we are waiting for the Philly Cheese Steak Heretic to finish smoking. This is pre-dinner conversation. It fills the length of time allotted to it. :smalltongue:

You know, when I first joined the forum, there was a forum war between the righteous Nacho Army and the vile Cookie Hoard. I'm pretty sure that this thread is taking on the undertones of that sort of silliness.

As to the subject of kechup, it is tomato based sauce. If it had higher fat content, it could be a gravy. It has too many distinct ingredients (sugar, tomato paste, vinegar) to be a paste (which to my mind implies a single ingredient with spices). If it had milk, it could be a cream. Prepared mustard is also a sauce. Mayonnaise is just disgusting.

Really? There was a forum war about it? :confused:

[Rockphed]

Really? There was a forum war about it? :confused:

Very small, very short lived forum war. It was mostly hyperbolic vilification of people who dared question the rightness of nachos or expound the virtues of cookies, who were obviously all shills for the Cookie Horde. It was very silly. The mods told both sides to cool it because it started being not-silly. Any record of it has long since been extirpated from the archives; it was back in 2006. Can you tell that my memories are flawed and extremely-biased. I don't think I could even remember any of the other participants if I tried.

[Bartmanhomer]

Very small, very short lived forum war. It was mostly hyperbolic vilification of people who dared question the rightness of nachos or expound the virtues of cookies, who were obviously all shills for the Cookie Horde. It was very silly. The mods told both sides to cool it because it started being not-silly. Any record of it has long since been extirpated from the archives; it was back in 2006. Can you tell that my memories are flawed and extremely-biased. I don't think I could even remember any of the other participants if I tried.
Must be a very silly forum war. It's a good thing I wasn't around to see it back then. :tongue:

[Flickerdart]

Mayonnaise is just disgusting.

Spoken like someone who's only had mayonnaise from a jar. Properly prepared mayonnaise (an emulsion of egg in olive oil) is a subtle, delicate sauce.

[Skitterbug]

Mayonnaise is just disgusting.

It's also not a musical instrument. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1JA-nh0IfI) Mayonnaise is just worthless.

[sktarq]

Mayo is great. . . As an enhancement to other flavors. By itself it's not good.

Also support the use of home made mayo.

It also goes well on both sandwiches and burgers

[Aedilred]

Mayo is great. . . As an enhancement to other flavors. By itself it's not good.


I agree. Mayo's at his best when paired with Kermode.

[Wardog]

If a restaurant has one or two burgers on menu I would expect to find them in the sandwich section.


Certainly not my experience in the UK. A restaurant would put burgers in the "main meals" section, and sandwiches in the "sandwiches" or "light meals" section.


Indeed. The argument that meat on a bun is not a sandwich falls apart when you recall the chicken sandwich:
http://i.imgur.com/LHSYFx7.png


Weird. To me, unless you are talking about the McDonsalds menu, a chicken sandwich is just a sandwich made with chicken. As in, two slices of bread, cold sliced chicken, and salad/mayonaise/etc to taste.

[factotum]

Mayo is great. . . As an enhancement to other flavors. By itself it's not good.

Apart from a few competitive eaters (and that chap who used to do Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Time), is there actually anybody who will sit down and eat mayo on its own? Seems a kind of odd thing to do.

[Razade]

Apart from a few competitive eaters (and that chap who used to do Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Time), is there actually anybody who will sit down and eat mayo on its own? Seems a kind of odd thing to do.

Well it's Miracle Whip but this kid? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du1kxaJEH3E)

[sktarq]

Do people eat mayo by itself.

In two ways often.

Firstly as I was talking about flavor - pairing it with something that has little to no flavor would be much like eating it by itself. You can quickly get to the point where fries/chips are the complementary flavor to the mayo if you dip them in mayo for example. Mayo is supporting role-and needs to stay there.

Secondly - people taste test mayo and judge it on that very regularly. Lick the knife, that gob hanging off the edge of the sandwich, etc. And these things are what people associate with the "taste of mayo"

[Coidzor]

One use of mayo is to take the edge off of a harsher sauce, such as particularly biting honey mustard or to dilute horseradish.

Alternatively, one can mix mayo and ketchup together and approximate Thousand Island salad dressing or make a fry sauce that amounts to a milder, creamier ketchup and can blend with the flavor of the french fries rather than mask them like either mayo or ketchup on their own can.

[Peelee]

Spoken like someone who's only had mayonnaise from a jar. Properly prepared mayonnaise (an emulsion of egg in olive oil) is a subtle, delicate sauce.

While I agree, "emulsion" will never be a word that sounds palatable.

[sktarq]

Would you prefer a suspension?

[Coidzor]

What about Colloid?

[Flickerdart]

Would you prefer a suspension?

No way man, that stuff goes on your permanent record.

[Peelee]

No way man, that stuff goes on your permanent record.

Yeah, but who uses vinyl anymore?

[Skitterbug]

But is a sandwich still a sandwich if you replace the bread? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Down_(sandwich))

[Algeh]

And Pad Thai still wouldn’t be a sandwich.

If you put leftover Pad Thai between two pieces of bread, you could make a Pad Thai sandwich. Probably would be better in a tortilla, though.



My thought process here: "wait, panini isn't a type of bread, it's a type of sandwich. Right? I should go check to make sure. Hmmm... In many English-speaking countries, a panini or panino (from the Italian panini [paˈniːni], meaning "small bread, bread rolls") is a grilled sandwich made from bread other than sliced bread." Ok, so it's not, but it does specify bread, in a way, and- wait, the picture of a panini was sliced bread! And every time I've ordered a panini, it's been on sliced bread! Dammit, world, make up your mind!"

Whenever I see the word "panini", my brain goes "pani-ni-ni" like "chickadee" noises. It's not easy living in my head.

As near as I can tell, around here "panini" means "reasonably flat hot sandwich with grill marks on it".

[Winter_Wolf]

If you put leftover Pad Thai between two pieces of bread, you could make a Pad Thai sandwich. Probably would be better in a tortilla, though.




Whenever I see the word "panini", my brain goes "pani-ni-ni" like "chickadee" noises. It's not easy living in my head.

As near as I can tell, around here "panini" means "reasonably flat hot sandwich with grill marks on it".

You don't do the Caddyshack ne-ne-ne sound like Chevy Chase? "Be the sandwich. Pani-ni-ni-ni-ni."

[Twizzly513]

I would say yes. It fits the technical definition of a sandwich. But when you think sandwich, you don't hamburger. Technically, a hamburger is a sandwich. But culturally, not at all. No one says they want sandwiches for dinner and then goes to a burger place, or vice versa. Unless they serve both, in which case I suppose my example implodes. There are far looser definitions of a sandwich, anyways. In France, for instance, a hot dog is considered a sandwich, and is served inside a piece of bread and not a bun.
No really, look up french hot dogs.
No bun...

[Keltest]

I would say yes. It fits the technical definition of a sandwich. But when you think sandwich, you don't hamburger. Technically, a hamburger is a sandwich. But culturally, not at all. No one says they want sandwiches for dinner and then goes to a burger place, or vice versa. Unless they serve both, in which case I suppose my example implodes. There are far looser definitions of a sandwich, anyways. In France, for instance, a hot dog is considered a sandwich, and is served inside a piece of bread and not a bun.
No really, look up french hot dogs.
No bun...

What have the French done to the poor hot dog? Is nothing sacred there?

[ChrisAsmadi]

What have the French done to the poor hot dog? Is nothing sacred there?

Whatever they've done, can it really be worse than that double down dog thing?

[Domino Quartz]

I would say yes. It fits the technical definition of a sandwich. But when you think sandwich, you don't hamburger. Technically, a hamburger is a sandwich. But culturally, not at all. No one says they want sandwiches for dinner and then goes to a burger place, or vice versa. Unless they serve both, in which case I suppose my example implodes. There are far looser definitions of a sandwich, anyways. In France, for instance, a hot dog is considered a sandwich, and is served inside a piece of bread and not a bun.
No really, look up french hot dogs.
No bun...

We do that in New Zealand as well. I wouldn't consider it a sandwich, though.

[factotum]

As near as I can tell, around here "panini" means "reasonably flat hot sandwich with grill marks on it".

I think you specifically have to use ciabatta bread to make it a panini--if you used regular bread it would be a regular toasted sandwich.

[Coidzor]

I believe another spanner in the works is whether it's grilled while pressed or not.

[Ebon_Drake]

Whatever they've done, can it really be worse than that double down dog thing?

Just gonna leave this here...

https://i.imgur.com/hBhx6F7.jpg

[Coidzor]

Just gonna leave this here...

https://i.imgur.com/hBhx6F7.jpg

I'm always amazed at how many of those actually sound fairly good and also at how inedible the ones that actually seem bad seem.

[Bartmanhomer]

Are talking about hot dogs now? I was starting to enjoying the hamburger debate. :frown:

[Skitterbug]

Are talking about hot dogs now? I was starting to enjoying the hamburger debate. :frown:

Well if you put a hot dog between two hamburger buns what is it?

[Bartmanhomer]

Well if you put a hot dog between two hamburger buns what is it?

A hamburger hot dog or a hod dog hamburger I suppose. :confused:

[Keltest]

Well if you put a hot dog between two hamburger buns what is it?

Crude and disappointing. A hamburger in between two hot dog bun halves is similar, but at least you can cut those to reasonably hold the burger without everything spilling.

[Fri]

Okay, to mix up/confuse/spice things a bit.

What's a sloppy joe then? Can it be considered a burger, since I always thought it's a burger variant. But apparently hamburger is actually more defined than that? So would that make sloppy joe actually a sandwich but not a burger?

[oudeis]

A sloppy joe couldn't be considered anything but a sandwich.

[Rockphed]

A sloppy joe couldn't be considered anything but a sandwich.

A sloppy joe is an undercooked bread pudding.

[Aedilred]

A sloppy joe is a sauce that's been badly served.

We don't really have them here, but they would be considered a "roll" I think.

[Keltest]

A sloppy joe is a mess that happens to contain bread.