Help figuring out a player's build.

[Breakman]

So one of my players has been absolutely wrecking my encounters these past sessions.
This isn't really a problem, but his build uses a lot of rules that I am unsure interact the way he uses them.

His build so far is: Goliath Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 1/Frost Rager 3.
He uses unarmed strikes in combat, using the goliath barbarian ACF to get to large size for big fists and with TWF + bear form secondary natural attacks he gets 7 attacks in a full round (3 from BaB, 1 from TWF, 3 natural bear attacks) with his unarmed strikes (with IUS) dealing some 3d8 + str damage while raging.
At least, that's what he told me. I'm not nearly rules-savvy enough to understand how the different bonuses to his unarmed damage and the like interact, so I am turning to the playground for help. Can someone explain to me what a full round attack using this build should look like?

[JNAProductions]

Remember his later attacks have an attack penalty.

And honestly? Give your enemies more HP, or make them more numerous. This is BY FAR one of the better issues to have-it's easy to solve.

[MisterKaws]

He likely thinks Fist of the Forest and Frostrager stack, which would explain from where this 3d8 came: 2d8 from FotF's 1d10 unarmed strike scaled to large, and 1d8 from Frostrager's 1d6 unarmed strike, also scaled to large. Well, they don't - the highest dice stays, and only the cold bonus damage is added to it. Also, Bear Form replaces your size, so it doesn't stack with Mountain Rage.

At the end, his actual unarmed damage should be 1d10+str with 1d4 extra cold damage per attack. And he's medium when raging, so use the medium damage dice for his natural attacks. To boot, since Bear Form is based on Polymorph, he doesn't get Powerful Build while in Bear Form.

[Malroth]

Honestly He's a lv 12 Melee guy he's good at exactly one thing beating things up up close. If he was using a 2hander charge build he'd be hitting for4 times at 90+ per hit as opposed to 7 attacks that average only 19 each. Make some foes fliers others incoporeal and some of them just sniping from really far away and give him some Melee Mooks to squash to keep him busy

[KillianHawkeye]

Protip: The DM is the rules arbiter and needs to understand everything that's happening in the game. Either learn how the things your players want to use work, or don't let them use things you're not familiar with.

[jmax]

If I recall correctly, if you have natural weapons and are full attacking with your iteratives - usually using a manufactured weapon, although there's no reason you couldn't use unarmed strike - you can use all of your natural weapons as secondary weapons. I've always felt it's a bit cheesy, but the rules allow it.

I'm not terribly familiar with some of the stuff in this build, but here's what I see for tallying up attacks. The attack bonuses listed are just the BAB portion.


3 iterative attacks (+12/+7/+2) with unarmed strike
1 off-hand attack with unarmed strike (+12), which causes all attacks with both "hands" to take a -2 penalty. This technically only applies to the unarmed strikes, not natural weapons as secondaries.
2 claws as secondary attacks (+7) from being a bear
1 bite as a secondary attack (+7) from being a bear
1 extra unarmed strike (+12) for One-Two Punch from Frost Rager, which causes all attacks in the round to take a -2 penalty

That's actually 8 attacks, not 7. Barbarians aren't known for their math skills :-P

The unarmed strikes each have a base damage of 2d6 unless there's an extra boost in there I didn't notice.

Powerful build effectively gives him a +4 on grapple checks if he ever does them. Not 100% sure he should keep that when in bear form, but at a quick glance I don't see anything that says he can't. Glanced too quickly :)

You haven't said what his stats are, but Bear Warrior gives him a +8 to Strength. It replaces the bonuses from Rage. Depending on the magic items he has, and whether any caster allies are buffing him, his Strength score could theoretically be as high as 18 base +4 Goliath racial bonus +3 from levels + 6 enhancement from an item (not out of line for an ECL 13 character, or ECL 12 if using Level Adjustment buy-off) +8 bear = 39. At that level, Manuals of Exercise are probably too expensive to be practical. Str 39 gives him a Str bonus of +14. Off-hand weapons (including unarmed strikes) and secondary natural weapons all get get half Str bonus to damage. Main hand gets full Str bonus.

So assuming no other buffs (not a given, especially because if I was him I'd have an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Necklace of Natural Weapons), his Full Attack looks like this:

Unarmed Strike +22/+17/+13 (2d6+14) and Unarmed Strike +24 (2d6+7) and Bite +19 (1d6+7) and 2 claws +19 (1d4+7) and extra Unarmed Strike +22 (2d6+14)

Total potential damage 11d6+2d4+84, assuming everything hits, no enhancement bonuses or other buffs, no power attack (which potentially could add another 96 damage but make it seriously unlikely he's going to hit a whole lot).

It's a lot, potentially. But you can mitigate this several ways.

None of the individual attacks is hugely powerful. A little damage reduction will decrease his damage considerably. You haven't said what kind of stuff you're throwing at the PCs, but if you (for example) throw a CR 11 elder elemental at them, that's got DR 10/-. You're immediately lopping 10 points of damage off of each attack.
Absent either magic items or a caster buddy to grant flight (totally plausible by this level, of course), this build is totally ground-bound and has no decent ranged combat options. Throw some flying monsters at the party. Air elementals can fly quite fast, allowing you to incorporate (1) as well.
Everything he has relies on getting full attacks. Tactical teleportation is going to ruin his day, as will just spacing enemies out in general.
Throw a caster at the party. A debuffer or battlefield controller can give this player a seriously hard time. Be gentle if doing this - if the party doesn't have a primary caster, or if the primary caster plays with sub-par tactics, this is going to feel punishing. Anything that reduces damage is going to hit this guy hard, as will anything limiting mobility. A slow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slow.htm) spell will make him cry, as would ray of dizziness if you use non-Core content.



What's the rest of the party look like? And what equipment does this PC have? You should definitely be able to challenge this player. You're getting into high-level play, so usually it's melee types like this one that get left in the dust.

EDIT: Holy multiple ninjas, Batman!
EDIT2: Bolded the full attack progression, since that's the answer to the specific question.
EDIT3: Note that, if he took the Lion Spirit Totem alternate class feature, he has Pounce, allowing him to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In that case, difficult terrain and battlefield control ruin his day by preventing charging. Unless he has Boots of the Battle Charger... which he can't wear in bear form, even with a Wilding Clasp.

[SirNibbles]

He likely thinks Fist of the Forest and Frostrager stack, which would explain from where this 3d8 came: 2d8 from FotF's 1d10 unarmed strike scaled to large, and 1d8 from Frostrager's 1d6 unarmed strike, also scaled to large. Well, they don't - the highest dice stays, and only the cold bonus damage is added to it. Also, Bear Form replaces your size, so it doesn't stack with Mountain Rage.

At the end, his actual unarmed damage should be 1d10+str with 1d4 extra cold damage per attack. And he's medium when raging, so use the medium damage dice for his natural attacks. To boot, since Bear Form is based on Polymorph, he doesn't get Powerful Build while in Bear Form.

Fist of the Forest does stack but not in the way he is doing it:

"If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table."

A Large Size Frostrager deals 1d8 with an Unarmed Strike. Fist of the Forest increases this twice on the Monk table (to 2d6).
__

I would interpret Mountain Rage as increasing his Bear Form's size to large.
__

Polymorph cancels Powerful Build, as you've said.

"You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels."

__

The easiest counter to someone who hits a lot with UAS/Natural Weapons is a spell that does damage to anyone who touches the user.

Babau Slime (Spell Compendium, page 22)- 1d8 acid damage to anyone who hits with an UAS/Natural Weapon; no saving throw allowed. 7 attacks means 7d8 damage. It's a level 1 Sorc/Wiz spell and lasts minutes/level so you can toss it onto any almost enemy.
There's an electricity-based one as well that I can't remember right now. I'll keep looking and get back to you.
EDIT: Radiant Shield (Book of Exalted Deeds, page 108)

[KillianHawkeye]

I would interpret Mountain Rage as increasing his Bear Form's size to large.


That's a pretty iffy interpretation. Bear rage entirely replaces the normal effects of rage. When you rage, you have to choose whether to do a normal rage or a bear form rage. Mountain rage modifies the Barbarian's normal rage, and shouldn't be compatible with bear rage which overwrites the effect.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Either this player doesn't fully understand how these things work together, or he's using your ignorance of the rules to flat out cheat. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just mistaken.

Let's break down what each of those classes gives him, and how they interact:

Goliath Barbarian 1: Mountain Rage makes him increase to large size, it does not change anything if he's already large size. This also very specifically does not increase weapon damage, and it doesn't say that it only applies to manufactured weapons so it doesn't increase his natural weapon damage, either.

Fighter 1: Nothing to clarify.

Ranger 3: Nothing to clarify, other than two-weapon fighting rules which I'll cover later.

Fist of the Forest 3: Unarmed damage becomes 1d10, or if it was already 1d10 it increases one step per the Monk unarmed damage progression. Feral Trance gives him +2 damage with his unarmed strikes (but not with any other natural weapons). It also gives him a 1d6+Str bite attack at his highest bonus.

Bear Warrior 1: He becomes a Black Bear when using (Mountain) Rage, replacing the increased Str bonus from Mountain Rage with the bonuses stated: +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con. A black bear has 2 claws at 1d4 and a bite at 1d6, they'll be secondary natural weapons when using his unarmed strike as his primary weapon.

Frost Rager 3: Frostrage replaces his current unarmed strike damage with 1d8 (large) plus 1d4 cold. This is not optional, the class feature says this happens, not that it may happen or that you may choose for it to happen. One-two punch gives him an extra attack but applies a -2 penalty to hit with every attack he makes.

Two-Weapon Fighting: You make an extra attack with your offhand, but take a -2 penalty with every attack you make that round. That offhand attack adds half your Str bonus to damage.

Secondary Natural Attacks: These are made at a -5 to hit (or -2 with the feat Multiattack, or no penalty with the feat Improved Multiattack), and they only ever add half your Str bonus to damage. The bite attack from Fist of the Forest is an exception to this, but he only gets one bite attack.

Additionally, you could say that he may only make one attack with each limb. He can deliver either an unarmed strike with his hand, or he can deliver a claw attack with that limb, but not both. If he's delivering kicks or elbows instead of punches (which a non-Monk generally can't do) then he can get around this, but otherwise you're well within your right to tell him he can punch or he can claw with a given hand, but can't do both.

At level 12 he has a +12 BAB, for three attacks per round with his primary weapon (unarmed strike).

His various rage abilities give him the following bonuses:
Mountain Rage: Str bonus gets replaced by Bear Warrior; size becomes large but weapon damage does not increase.
Bear Form: Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, becomes a black bear (2 claws 1d4, bite 1d6).
Feral Trance: +4 Dex, +2 damage with unarmed strikes, bite (1d6+Str at highest bonus).
Frostrage: Unarmed strike damage becomes 1d8 plus 1d4 cold, which automatically overrides his current unarmed strike damage.

So he's a large black bear that gets Str +8, Dex +6, Con +4, plus natural armor bonuses and other stuff.

His attacks should appear as follows, assuming he has a Str 22 that increases to 30 from the above bonuses:

Unarmed Strike Primary: +17/+17/+12/+7 melee, 1d8+12 +1d4 cold (this includes one-two punch)
Unarmed Strike Offhand (half Str to damage): +17 melee, 1d8+7 +1d4 cold (+17/+12 if he has Improved TWF, +17/+12/+7 if he has Greater TWF, same damage)
Bite (Feral Trance): +17 melee, 1d6+10
Claws (secondary - half Str to damage, if you let him use each hand to wield multiple weapons): +12/+12 melee, 1d4+5

Any enhancement bonuses such as from an Amulet of Mighty Fists, permanent Greater Magic Weapon, or similar will add the full bonus to the attack and damage of everything it applies to. A Greater Magic Fang on a fist does not apply to the claws of that same hand, as they're different weapons.

[SirNibbles]

Goliath Barbarian 1: Mountain Rage makes him increase to large size, it does not change anything if he's already large size. This also very specifically does not increase weapon damage, and it doesn't say that it only applies to manufactured weapons so it doesn't increase his natural weapon damage, either.

__

Fist of the Forest 3: Unarmed damage becomes 1d10, or if it was already 1d10 it increases one step per the Monk unarmed damage progression. Feral Trance gives him +2 damage with his unarmed strikes (but not with any other natural weapons). It also gives him a 1d6+Str bite attack at his highest bonus.
__

Frost Rager 3: Frostrage replaces his current unarmed strike damage with 1d8 (large) plus 1d4 cold. This is not optional, the class feature says this happens, not that it may happen or that you may choose for it to happen. One-two punch gives him an extra attack but applies a -2 penalty to hit with every attack he makes.

__

Secondary Natural Attacks: These are made at a -5 to hit (or -2 with the feat Multiattack, or no penalty with the feat Improved Multiattack), and they only ever add half your Str bonus to damage. The bite attack from Fist of the Forest is an exception to this, but he only gets one bite attack.

Additionally, you could say that he may only make one attack with each limb. He can deliver either an unarmed strike with his hand, or he can deliver a claw attack with that limb, but not both. If he's delivering kicks or elbows instead of punches (which a non-Monk generally can't do) then he can get around this, but otherwise you're well within your right to tell him he can punch or he can claw with a given hand, but can't do both.


It says the damage does not increase because it's already increased from Powerful Build. Since he loses Powerful Build, RAI, it would provide a damage increase.

"However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability."

__

Fist of the Forest increases his UAS damage twice, not once. The wording is poor and ambiguous but it's pretty clear that FOTF 1 would increase someone with a 1d8 to the next step; it doesn't only apply to the 1d10 portion.

__

Yes, and then FOTF increases this 1d8.

__

Any character can make non-punch UASs, as per the Player's Handbook, page 121: "Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack."

[John Longarrow]

Take a look at an Ice Devil in the MM. Compare what it can do to your player's character. If you want, it should be a good challenge for your party so toss it at them. With its DR, spells, and ability to keep moving if it wants, I'm betting your brawler will run into a lot of problems.

As others have pointed out the problem isn't so much that the character is broken as your tossing fights at them that play to their strengths. Groups, ranged combat, touch attacks, stat damage, and BFC will all really throw a wrench in this character. Even a group of shadows attacking from the ground can drop him quickly if he's not really really careful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It says the damage does not increase because it's already increased from Powerful Build. Since he loses Powerful Build, RAI, it would provide a damage increase.

"However, he does not gain additional benefits on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability."

__

Fist of the Forest increases his UAS damage twice, not once. The wording is poor and ambiguous but it's pretty clear that FOTF 1 would increase someone with a 1d8 to the next step; it doesn't only apply to the 1d10 portion.

__

Yes, and then FOTF increases this 1d8.

__

Any character can make non-punch UASs, as per the Player's Handbook, page 121: "Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack."

Regardless, Frostrager absolutely replaces whatever damage it does with 1d8 plus 1d4 cold, so it doesn't really matter. It's definitely nowhere near the 3d8 he's using currently.

[Dagroth]

Regardless, Frostrager absolutely replaces whatever damage it does with 1d8 plus 1d4 cold, so it doesn't really matter. It's definitely nowhere near the 3d8 he's using currently.

Frostrager's 1d8 is then upgraded by Fist of the Forest to 1d10 and then to 2d6. Mountain Rage does make you Large, which would increase this to 3d6... but Bear Form drops keeps you medium since the two forms of Rage are separate and not stacking.

Remember that he needs a Wilding Clasp for any worn magic items he expects to keep working while in Bear Form. Armor can, of course, have the "Wild" enhancement.

[SirNibbles]

Regardless, Frostrager absolutely replaces whatever damage it does with 1d8 plus 1d4 cold, so it doesn't really matter. It's definitely nowhere near the 3d8 he's using currently.

That's quite an uncharitable interpretation.

"Frostrage (Su): While raging, the character grows larger and more massive, and his freezing sweat forms icicles as it streams out of his pores, coating his body in a glittering crust of ice. The frostrager's actual size category does not change (nor does his space/reach), but he does gain a +4 natural armor bonus to Armor Class from the sheets of ice that form over his body. In addition, a frostrager's unarmed attacks deal 1d6 points of damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage on a successful hit. If the frostrager is Small, his unarmed attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and if the frostrager is Large, his unarmed attack deals 1d8 points of damage."

In order to truly appreciate the author's intent, let's first examine how poorly this is written if we go by strict RAW.

If the Frostrager is any size but Small or Large, he deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage.
If he's Small, he deals 1d4 points of damage. No mention is made of cold damage.
If he's Large, he deals 1d8 points of damage. No mention is made of cold damage.

_

Now let's think about what the author actually meant (probably):

"While raging, a Frostrager's Unarmed Attacks deal an extra 1d4 points of cold damage on a successful hit. Additionally, his base Unarmed Attack damage is increased, dealing 1d4 damage if he is Small, 1d6 damage if he is Medium, and 1d8 damage if he is Large. Refer to Tables 2-2 and 2-3 of the Dungeon Master's Guide for other sizes."

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Fist of the Forest's Unarmed Damage increase:

"Unarmed Damage (Ex): Your unarmed attacks deal more damage than usual. At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table."

I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that the logic for a Fist of the Forest's Unarmed Damage should be as follows:
A 1st or 2nd level Fist of the Forest's Unarmed Strike damage increases to 1d8. If your Unarmed Strike already dealt this much damage or more, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the Monk class table.
A 3rd level Fist of the Forest's Unarmed Strike damage increases further by one step.

Thus, we would have the Large Frostrager dealing 1d8 base damage plus two increases from Fist of the Forest to give us 2d6 base damage.

________


Frostrager's 1d8 is then upgraded by Fist of the Forest to 1d10 and then to 2d6. Mountain Rage does make you Large, which would increase this to 3d6... but Bear Form drops keeps you medium since the two forms of Rage are separate and not stacking.

Remember that he needs a Wilding Clasp for any worn magic items he expects to keep working while in Bear Form. Armor can, of course, have the "Wild" enhancement.

Does he shift into Bear Form and then become large or become large and then shift into Bear Form?

__

"When so worn, a clasp prevents the worn item from melding into your new form when you use wild shape" - Magic Item Compendium, page 190

[Dagroth]

Frostrager's 1d8 is then upgraded by Fist of the Forest to 1d10 and then to 2d6. Mountain Rage does make you Large, which would increase this to 3d6... but Bear Form drops keeps you medium since the two forms of Rage are separate and not stacking.

Remember that he needs a Wilding Clasp for any worn magic items he expects to keep working while in Bear Form. Armor can, of course, have the "Wild" enhancement.


Does he shift into Bear Form and then become large or become large and then shift into Bear Form?

__

"When so worn, a clasp prevents the worn item from melding into your new form when you use wild shape" - Magic Item Compendium, page 190

1) Neither. Mountain Rage replaces normal Rage. Bear Form replaces normal Rage. They do not combine. If you want Large & Bear, you need 5 levels of Bear Warrior for Brown Bear shape.

2) Bear form functions as wild shape, with specific differences (in stat modifiers, specifically). Wilding Clasps should work fine. Even if you don't accept the idea that Bear form functions as wild shape, it falls under "why can't melee characters have nice things?"

[SirNibbles]

1) Neither. Mountain Rage replaces normal Rage. Bear Form replaces normal Rage. They do not combine. If you want Large & Bear, you need 5 levels of Bear Warrior for Brown Bear shape.

2) Bear form functions as wild shape, with specific differences (in stat modifiers, specifically). Wilding Clasps should work fine. Even if you don't accept the idea that Bear form functions as wild shape, it falls under "why can't melee characters have nice things?"

"Mountain Rage: When he rages, his size category increases to Large."
"Bear Form (Su): Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form"

Mountain Rage is a type of rage.
Bear Form is an added optional bonus to rage.

_

By RAW it's different but as a DM I'd let a melee player use Wilding Clasps with Bear Warrior. I just thought RAW should be mentioned.

[Dagroth]

"Mountain Rage: When he rages, his size category increases to Large."
"Bear Form (Su): Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form"

Mountain Rage is a type of rage.
Bear Form is an added optional bonus to rage.

_

By RAW it's different but as a DM I'd let a melee player use Wilding Clasps with Bear Warrior. I just thought RAW should be mentioned.

Actually, Bear Form very specifically replaces the benefits of Rage with the form & stat bonuses of Bear Form.

[Thaneus]

So basically he has a lot of attacks which might miss/crit but each attack does not much damage for a level 12.
DR10/- and he is basically a teddy bear for this encounter (this should not be uncommon).
A simple rogue/swordsage build 9/3 can make way more damage like this and hit better (1d6 short sword+7d6 sneak attack rogue+2d6 assassin stance+12 craven +8 dex to damage and this with 6 attacks thanks for dancing mongouse and twf) and he just needs to use cloak of deception or distracting ember and can nearly solo a lot of encounter on one on one.
A wizard can make a SoD on the bad save of the encounter and just end it or trivialize it.
A Bardbarian can go "CHARGE" and eradicate him with a AT +31 roll and 140dmg.
You are talking higher levels at 12 (i do at least) where a BSF can solo a bear in a fistfight while catching chinchillas.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You haven't mentioned whether this character uses an amulet of mighty fists/necklace of natural weapons/greater magic weapon/greater magic fang. As written, this character doesn't even beat DR/magic, meaning that most any magical being should be resisting a lot of damage.

[KillianHawkeye]

2) Bear form functions as wild shape, with specific differences (in stat modifiers, specifically). Wilding Clasps should work fine. Even if you don't accept the idea that Bear form functions as wild shape, it falls under "why can't melee characters have nice things?"

This isn't true at all. Bear form functions as polymorph and has nothing to do with Wild Shape whatsoever.

That being said, it's fairly sensible to allow wilding clasps to work for additional things beyond Wild Shape, but it's definitely a house rule that isn't guaranteed to be usable for everyone.

[SirNibbles]

Actually, Bear Form very specifically replaces the benefits of Rage with the form & stat bonuses of Bear Form.

I really dislike the fact that you never post quotes and you're so often completely wrong.

"The bear warrior retains the normal +2 bonus on Will saves and —2 penalty to Armor Class while raging, but the ability score bonuses granted by rage or frenzy are replaced by Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution bonuses appropriate to the bear form taken (see below)."

He is considered to be Raging. He gains all the benefits of Rage except those that are specifically replaced (the ability score bonuses).

[Menzath]

SRD quote.

Manufactured Weapons: You can attack with "manufactured weapons" and any secondaries allowed by the creature description (and for the monk, their unarmed attacks count as the same thing as "manufactured weapons" in this context)

So in this case monk like unarmed strikes prevent you from dual using natural attacks AND manufactured weapons in the same hand.
Since you can't use two of the same weapon type from the same hand.

This thread goes into more detail about it.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/16924/can-i-use-a-full-attack-and-natural-attacks-in-the-same-round

[SirNibbles]

SRD quote.


So in this case monk like unarmed strikes prevent you from dual using natural attacks AND manufactured weapons in the same hand.
Since you can't use two of the same weapon type from the same hand.

This thread goes into more detail about it.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/16924/can-i-use-a-full-attack-and-natural-attacks-in-the-same-round

Unarmed Strikes don't have to be made with hands, as per the Player's Handbook, page 121, so you're free to use claws and Unarmed Strikes at the same time.

"Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack."

[Menzath]

Okay, he is going to two weapon unarmed strike with his feet. Since using a headbutt would take away the bite.
He now falls prone do to not using his legs to stand.
Unless you make him pass an incredible jump AND balance check.

[Dagroth]

Okay, he is going to two weapon unarmed strike with his feet. Since using a headbutt would take away the bite.
He now falls prone do to not using his legs to stand.
Unless you make him pass an incredible jump AND balance check.

Two weapon combat does not indicate that you're attacking with both weapons in the same motion...

Dual Weapon Attack, however, does... since you only use one attack roll.

[Menzath]

The thread link I posted goes into detail about why you cannot use two natural attacks OR weapon attacks with the same "hand".
Natural attacks being a claw and unarmed strike.
It's a long read. But the rules are there.
And no, two weapon fighting doesn't cover that, the rules on attacking with manufactured and natural weapons does.

By your ruling I should be able to make a slam, claw, rake, touch, and unarmed strike with the same hand. Which just can't happen.

[SirNibbles]

Okay, he is going to two weapon unarmed strike with his feet. Since using a headbutt would take away the bite.
He now falls prone do to not using his legs to stand.
Unless you make him pass an incredible jump AND balance check.

Of course, that reminds me of every monster statblock like Centaur where you have to make a jump/balance check to attack with your hooves.

Wait a second... there are no statblocks like that!

[Menzath]

Because quadrepeds​ have four legs. Leaving them TWO more to balance on.
They didn't magically loose half their legs when they hoofed with the other two.

In this case raw and rai support logic.

Conversely show me in the rules where it says a legless creature can stand.

If X legs are doing something besides supporting you out of Y, and Y-X=0, you shouldn't be able to stand.

[Dagroth]

The thread link I posted goes into detail about why you cannot use two natural attacks OR weapon attacks with the same "hand".
Natural attacks being a claw and unarmed strike.
It's a long read. But the rules are there.
And no, two weapon fighting doesn't cover that, the rules on attacking with manufactured and natural weapons does.

By your ruling I should be able to make a slam, claw, rake, touch, and unarmed strike with the same hand. Which just can't happen.

Nobody is saying he's using the same hand to claw and unarmed strike. In fact, they're saying he's not using any hands to do unarmed strikes (which is RAW, btw). Now, you could fairly claim that he would have to use his off-hand for TWF... that's RAW.

BTW, some creatures can claw with both "hands" and then rend with those same hands... on the same round.

[Menzath]

Nobody is saying he's using the same hand to claw and unarmed strike. In fact, they're saying he's not using any hands to do unarmed strikes (which is RAW, btw). Now, you could fairly claim that he would have to use his off-hand for TWF... that's RAW.

BTW, some creatures can claw with both "hands" and then rend with those same hands... on the same round.

That makes more sense but still has issues of limited # of usable body parts that conflict with either standing or other natural attacks.

And rending is a special ex quality (attack) that bypass' this mess in that specific Trump's general.

And again. Not using his hands is fine. But begs the question, what IS he using?

Now if he uses one leg to make his unarmed iteritive attacks, and either gets two secondary claws OR uses twf and gets one secondary claw that would be fine.
Losing 1 attack for everything to make sense.

[Dagroth]

That makes more sense but still has issues of limited # of usable body parts that conflict with either standing or other natural attacks.

And rending is a special ex quality (attack) that bypass' this mess in that specific Trump's general.

And again. Not using his hands is fine. But begs the question, what IS he using?

Elbows, Knees, Headbutts, Shin kicks, Forearm strikes, Shoulder bashes, Hip checks, Back kicks...

[Menzath]

A kick and a knee, an elbow and a fist are the same "hand" for mechanical purposes.
We still hit the same issue.

Fluff is all well and good.
But the crunch is we need to specify a "hand" that we are using.

[SirNibbles]

Because quadrepeds​ have four legs. Leaving them TWO more to balance on.
They didn't magically loose half their legs when they hoofed with the other two.

In this case raw and rai support logic.

Conversely show me in the rules where it says a legless creature can stand.

If X legs are doing something besides supporting you out of Y, and Y-X=0, you shouldn't be able to stand.

Animated Objects
Yuan-ti and other Snake-like Creatures

By the way, "there's no rule that says this doesn't happen" isn't an argument. Is there a rule to say something happens? If not, nothing happens.
_

It's completely reasonable to stand on one leg and make 4 quick kicks with your other leg. Look at any martial artist.

____


A kick and a knee, an elbow and a fist are the same "hand" for mechanical purposes.
We still hit the same issue.

Fluff is all well and good.
But the crunch is we need to specify a "hand" that we are using.

CITATION NEEDED

[Dagroth]

A kick and a knee, an elbow and a fist are the same "hand" for mechanical purposes.
We still hit the same issue.

No, they're not. A Monk can wield a quarterstaff in both hands and still make unarmed strikes without letting go of said quarterstaff. If said quarterstaff were +4 Defending/+4 Defending, the Monk could gain +8 AC and still make unarmed strikes without letting go of said quarterstaff.

Now, on the other hand, I generally agree with you... but the claw damage is so low that it is hardly worth fighting over and falls under the "why can't melee have nice things?" clause.

Edit: That being said, he should just get the Beast Strike Feat to add his claw damage to his unarmed strike damage.

[Breakman]

Thank you all for your responses, I feel I've got a better hang of things now.
I also appreciate the advise on making counters, but I didn't really have a problem with that, I am simply curious if his build works.

The only two debatable problems (leaving aside the "number of limbs" problem) that I still have are the following:

-Neither powerful build nor mountain rage seems to affect unarmed weapon damage. Does this mean a large sized character would have medium sized unarmed damage?

-Does the bearform grow to large size? With all the corresponding damage die increases, since the bear loses powerful build?

Thanks again!

[Dagroth]

Thank you all for your responses, I feel I've got a better hang of things now.
I also appreciate the advise on making counters, but I didn't really have a problem with that, I am simply curious if his build works.

The only two debatable problems (leaving aside the "number of limbs" problem) that I still have are the following:

-Neither powerful build nor mountain rage seems to affect unarmed weapon damage. Does this mean a large sized character would have medium sized unarmed damage?

-Does the bearform grow to large size? With all the corresponding damage die increases, since the bear loses powerful build?

Thanks again!

Powerful Build does not affect Unarmed Damage.
Mountain Rage does implicitly affect Unarmed Damage because it makes you one size category larger.

There is a debate on if the Bear Form grows Large or not. If you accept that Bear Form & Mountain Rage are compatible, then you: 1) Rage, 2) Bear Form, 3) become Large all at the same time.

[KillianHawkeye]

-Neither powerful build nor mountain rage seems to affect unarmed weapon damage. Does this mean a large sized character would have medium sized unarmed damage?

Powerful Build doesn't give higher unarmed damage, but increasing in size actually should. The reason that Mountain Rage doesn't otherwise increase weapon damage is because it doesn't increase the size of held items. In fact, it subsumes the effects of Powerful Build when it increases the character's size. Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are the exception, because their damage is always relative to the user's size category.


-Does the bearform grow to large size? With all the corresponding damage die increases, since the bear loses powerful build?

IMO, it doesn't. Powerful Build is a property of the Goliath's natural form, so losing it when changing forms is totally expected. And D&D is pretty specific about form-changing magic overwriting previous form changes, so thinking that they can grow their form larger at the same time they change into the form of a bear doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bear Warrior already has a built-in method for becoming a Large bear, and that's getting to level 5 for the brown bear form.



Personally, I view any attempts at trying to combine Mountain Rage with a Bear Warrior's bear form Rage is about the same level of nonsense as an evil Cleric with the Fire domain trying to rebuke fire elementals at the same time they rebuke undead. You can't. You have to choose one or the other.

[Dagroth]

Powerful Build doesn't give higher unarmed damage, but increasing in size actually should. The reason that Mountain Rage doesn't otherwise increase weapon damage is because it doesn't increase the size of held items. In fact, it subsumes the effects of Powerful Build when it increases the character's size. Unarmed strikes and natural weapons are the exception, because their damage is always relative to the user's size category.



IMO, it doesn't. Powerful Build is a property of the Goliath's natural form, so losing it when changing forms is totally expected. And D&D is pretty specific about form-changing magic overwriting previous form changes, so thinking that they can grow their form larger at the same time they change into the form of a bear doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bear Warrior already has a built-in method for becoming a Large bear, and that's getting to level 5 for the brown bear form.



Personally, I view any attempts at trying to combine Mountain Rage with a Bear Warrior's bear form Rage is about the same level of nonsense as an evil Cleric with the Fire domain trying to rebuke fire elementals at the same time they rebuke undead. You can't. You have to choose one or the other.

I agree with everything you said... until you got to the end.

If you have the Fire Domain, you get a separate turning pool that only works against certain creatures.

Now, you can't Rebuke Undead on the same action as Rebuking Fire Elementals... but you do get to Rebuke both (just not at the same time).

[SirNibbles]

Powerful Build does not affect Unarmed Damage.
Mountain Rage does implicitly affect Unarmed Damage because it makes you one size category larger.

There is a debate on if the Bear Form grows Large or not. If you accept that Bear Form & Mountain Rage are compatible, then you: 1) Rage, 2) Bear Form, 3) become Large all at the same time.

I concur.

_

I'd lean towards the bear becoming Large. Since Mountain Rage is non-magical there is no issue with the following clause:

"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

[KillianHawkeye]

I agree with everything you said... until you got to the end.

If you have the Fire Domain, you get a separate turning pool that only works against certain creatures.

Now, you can't Rebuke Undead on the same action as Rebuking Fire Elementals... but you do get to Rebuke both (just not at the same time).

Sounds like you're agreeing with me, then. Trying to use Mountain Rage and bear form Rage at the same time is exactly like trying to rebuke fire elementals and rebuke undead at the same time. You can't. You have to choose each time you do it.

[zergling.exe]

I wouldn't let Mountain Rage increase the bear form's size for the same reason I wouldn't let a pixie become large while raging: Goliath's are on the verge of being large size already, and Mountain Rage changes them from being 8ft medium creatures to 8ft large creatures. I think that's the RAI of the matter.

[Dagroth]

Sounds like you're agreeing with me, then. Trying to use Mountain Rage and bear form Rage at the same time is exactly like trying to rebuke fire elementals and rebuke undead at the same time. You can't. You have to choose each time you do it.

Sorry, it looked like you were saying that if the Cleric got the Fire Domain he wouldn't be able to Rebuke Undead anymore.

And yes, I'm on the side of "No, you can't Mountain Rage and Bear Form at the same time."

[KillianHawkeye]

I'd lean towards the bear becoming Large. Since Mountain Rage is non-magical there is no issue with the following clause:

"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

This isn't the issue. The issue is that Bear Form is based on polymorph, and polymorph changes you into a typical version of whatever creature you become. It also totally ignores what your original/previously current form is. If a Bear Warrior with a permanent enlarge person spell on them went into bear rage, they'd still turn into a normal-sized bear. The ability is physically incapable of generating a bear of unusual size.

[Dagroth]

This isn't the issue. The issue is that Bear Form is based on polymorph, and polymorph changes you into a typical version of whatever creature you become. It also totally ignores what your original/previously current form is. If a Bear Warrior with a permanent enlarge person spell on them went into bear rage, they'd still turn into a normal-sized bear. The ability is physically incapable of generating a bear of unusual size.

Well, if it's an Order of Operands situation, what if you Bear Form and then apply Mountain Rage? Is what I'd say if I didn't know that turning into a Bear makes you no longer a Goliath and thus no longer able to Mountain Rage. :smallbiggrin:

Just heading off that argument ahead of time.

[SirNibbles]

Well, if it's an Order of Operands situation, what if you Bear Form and then apply Mountain Rage? Is what I'd say if I didn't know that turning into a Bear makes you no longer a Goliath and thus no longer able to Mountain Rage. :smallbiggrin:

Just heading off that argument ahead of time.

Mountain Rage isn't a Goliath racial feature. It's a class feature and is thus kept while Polymorphed.

[KillianHawkeye]

Mountain Rage isn't a Goliath racial feature. It's a class feature and is thus kept while Polymorphed.

You can't rage when you're already raging. Rage is a once per encounter ability.

[Breakman]

Alright, I believe that answers all of my questions.

Thanks again for the assistance, this is my first thread and I didn't expect to get help THIS fast. :smallsmile:

[SirNibbles]

You can't rage when you're already raging. Rage is a once per encounter ability.

When do you rage a second time?

I activate Rage. This turns me into a Bear and makes me large.

[Dagroth]

Mountain Rage isn't a Goliath racial feature. It's a class feature and is thus kept while Polymorphed.

Mountain Rage is a Class Feature predicated on being a Goliath. If you're not a Goliath, you can't take Mountain Rage... even if you have Powerful Build (like a Half-Giant).

[SirNibbles]

Mountain Rage is a Class Feature predicated on being a Goliath. If you're not a Goliath, you can't take Mountain Rage... even if you have Powerful Build (like a Half-Giant).

"A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level.
...
To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race.
" - Races of the Dragon, page 105

Polymorph: "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels..." - Player's Handbook, page 197

Were you the proper race when you selected the level? Yes. Did you gain class abilities? Yes. Are (Ex) class abilities kept when Polymorphing? Yes.

_

Please, quote me the rule that backs up what you are saying. Show me the rule that says "you lose benefits of Racial Substitution levels while Polymorphed". It doesn't exist. The rules that do exist say the exact opposite.