Surprise round

[Scottlang]

Ok, scenario: players are in a T-junction corridor, 4 choices, rogue/shadow dancer chooses the one route, missions off, and and bumps right into a winterwight, he's stealthed (33, I rolled poorly) which he spotted, I ask for initiative from all, the wight and the rogue/shadow dance go for it, rogue jumps back in the surprise round, and then the Wight takes a 5 foot step around the corner and shoots a polar ray, and hits the paladin. Now the paladin is arguing that he should have been able to react to the situation, which I said no due to it being the surprise round.. Luckily if I took it back to the rules it had a 40 stealth as it was 25 ft away. That vs the passive perception of his very close to 30 passive...

So my question is where he stepped around the corner of that round, was I right to carry on with the round, or was the paladin?? Cos if not he did roll a 36 on perception... But I would like to know if I was right or wrong with that ruling...

[finaldooms]

Id say you were in the right, he was not aware of the monster since the other guy triggered. .thats what a surprise round is one side is aware and the other isn't

Kind of why ambushes are so deadly since thats a free attack per surprise guy along with flat footed ac instead of full

[Thaneus]

Well not that it matters a lot but did the paladin made a spot check? Was he able to get at least a chance? You sure the Wight was aware of the Pali? Did Pali not get partial cover because of the Wall?
Did the Wight made a spot check to spot the paly?
There are missing some rolles here mate :smallredface:
Just going:
Oh you spotted the Wight and he is going after the group (why the heck??) since you are stealthed (rogue).
initiate a surprise round out of this, i am not wondering why the player of the paly was pissed.

[jmax]

How did the winter wight know about the paladin if it couldn't see around the corner? I think you're right that the paladin should be caught unawares, but shouldn't the wight be focusing all of its wrath on the rogue?

Granted, the 5-foot step could have been originally intended to go toward or get away from the rogue, and at that point it's technically within the wight's rights (ha ha ha) to change targets. But if the surprise round is supposed to represent snap actions, going after someone you weren't originally aware of seems unreasonable. The wight doesn't have any unusual perception options that should allow it to see around corners.

I don't have a rules citation for that though.

[Scottlang]

Ok, the winterwight knew something was in the dungeon as it came across the other winterwight that was in the same area, peppered by flame arrows, so it knew something deadly was in the dungeon, so hence it was sneaking around!!! So the 2nds part is, the rogue wandered off (didn't stealth) and as soon as he came around the corner jumped back and hid in the shadows DC 55, so when the winterwight came around the corner in the surprised action, no one was hiding all were discussing what their next move was, and the paladin standing dead plum in the center, in shining full plate armour and a tower shield... Even if I worked off of his passive perception, which I think might have been like 25 or so without a roll... Up against a DC 40 (33 stealth +2 (20ft away) +5 for being distracted) missed it... Even if I took the roll of a 36 means he still didn't see it... The others were not able to see it, as it was a basic U-shaped corridor... From where the other players where vs the rogue and the paladin.
The winterwight has no added bonuses, it just followed the rogue... And cos there was no one else in the way, it shot in the direction of the rogue, who moved off to one side, and hit the paladin, like you following someone who ran around the corner you spot them and shoot thinking it was the original person you were chasing

[Jay R]

I don't know the 3.5e rules that well, so I have a couple of questions.

1. Under what conditions can somebody react between his enemy's move and attack? The only ones I can think of are an explicitly announced held action, or an attack of opportunity, neither of which apply.

2. You said he rolled a 36 on "perception". That leaves out an important detail. Was it a Spot check or a Listen check? The Spot check is worthless for that purpose; the wight wasn't in sight when the paladin made the roll. His Spot check means he saw every detail about the corridor, but not anything that wasn't in sight.

But if he explicitly made a Listen check, and was not surprised, then he isn't flat-footed. Roll against his real AC.

And if he isn't surprised, then:
If he rolled higher initiative than the wight, he should have already moved.
If he rolled lower initiative, then he can react - after the wight's attack.


But in any case, he's asking for the right to interrupt during the wight's initiative in the surprise round. Under what conditions is this ever allowed?

[Scottlang]

At J Roy, this is pathfinder, and spot, check and listen have been rolled into one save, perception... And the rules for surprise for pathfinder:
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[Diarmuid]

I guess I would ask how the Rogue was able to take a stealth action. Wasnt he being observed by the WW?

Even if we just assume that the Rogue and WW were involved in the surprise round after the rogue came around the corner and saw the WW, then the Rogue could have taken a move action back around the corner to break LoS with the WW and get a stealth check.

At this time, the WW could have stepped around the corner (5' step) and then not seeing the rogue, shot at whoever it deemed a good target.

[Dagroth]

In 3.5, until your initiative comes up during the "surprise" round... (assuming both groups randomly ran into each other) you're flat-footed.

If the Paladin's initiative came before the Wraith's, the Paladin could be said to have noticed the Rogue disappearing and "getting his guard up" before the Wraith came around the corner.

Edit: You don't need to know of the specific danger... just knowing that there is danger coming from a specific direction (down the corridor) is usually enough.

[KillianHawkeye]

It looks to me like your only mistake was having surprised characters roll initiative before the first round of combat. Tell your Paladin that he can't react on the surprise round because he was surprised. After the surprise round is over, then it's time to get initiative rolls from the rest of the combatants.