Trying to manipulate Ultimate Magus

[schreier]

I was trying to create a fun theurge character, using Ultimate Magus instead of Mystic Theurge ...

If you take Wizard 5 (with Spontaneous Divination) / Archivist 3 and Alternate Source Spell, could Wizard be the spontaneous arcane class and Archivist the spellbook based one?

This definitely depends on the interpretation of what an arcane spontaneous and arcane prepared class is. Based on this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?264860-What-is-an-arcane-divine-spellcasting-class

it would not work as the base of wizard is prepared arcane and the base of archivist is prepared divine ...

But spontaneous divination allows casting of spontaneous arcane, and alternate source spell allows archivist to cast divine prepared from a spellbook

[Grim Reader]

You can qualify for UM though the Spontaneous Divination Wizard. However, I don't really see Alternate Source Spell turning Archivist into an Arcane class. It has an arguable use in allowing a character to cast arcane spells of a certain level, but I don't see it changing the nature of a base class.

[weckar]

By the letter of the rule; yeah this would work. Definitely not as intended, though, and I feel you may have some trouble getting the most out of the UM abilities.

Frankly, I've seen worse shenanigans where people used the SAME class for both sides of the UM.

[Grim Reader]

Also, Spontaneous Divination Wizard would still not be a spontaneous caster class.

[noob]

When you use spontaneous divination you qualify for the class since it does not asks for spontaneous spell-casting it asks for the ability to spontaneously cast some spells.
when you only have divination wizard you can give it the levels for lowest caster class and the ones for non spontaneous one but not the ones for spontaneous one but it is still cool to be a single classes wizard ultimate magus.

[Uncle Pine]

Also, Spontaneous Divination Wizard would still not be a spontaneous caster class.


When you use spontaneous divination you qualify for the class since it does not asks for spontaneous spell-casting it asks for the ability to spontaneously cast some spells.
when you only have divination wizard you can give it the levels for lowest caster class and the ones for non spontaneous one but not the ones for spontaneous one but it is still cool to be a single classes wizard ultimate magus.

A Spontaneous Divination Wizard is definitely a spontaneous and a prepared spellcasting class, as it gains access to both abilities from class features alone. There is no stricter definition of a spellcasting class than that disallowing everything bar class features to count.
Try not to count class features and suddenly no class is a spellcasting class, as all of them get it via class features.
Spontaneous Divination is a class feature.

[Grim Reader]

When you use spontaneous divination you qualify for the class since it does not asks for spontaneous spell-casting it asks for the ability to spontaneously cast some spells.
when you only have divination wizard you can give it the levels for lowest caster class and the ones for non spontaneous one but not the ones for spontaneous one but it is still cool to be a single classes wizard ultimate magus.


What happens is that you can burn through the first UM level which may be added to any Arcane class. This is good in Sublime Chord builds, etc. But on the second level, you get a prepared Arcane Caster level on the Wizard, but you have no Spontaneous Arcane Caster class to add to, so the second advancement is lost.

If you somehow managed to find a way to add both levels to the same class, maybe through never learning anything but Divination spells and getting really twisted with the definition, I am told you'd still be out of luck because text trumps table.

[Grim Reader]

A Spontaneous Divination Wizard is definitely a spontaneous and a prepared spellcasting class, as it gains access to both abilities from class features alone. There is no stricter definition of a spellcasting class than that disallowing everything bar class features to count.
Try not to count class features and suddenly no class is a spellcasting class, as all of them get it via class features.
Spontaneous Divination is a class feature.

The definition is in the Rules Compendium, and include being able to cast all its (the class) spells spontaneously, or prepared.

[noob]

well I said the wizard could get ultimate magus levels and that it was good and that he would at each level gain a wizard spellcasting level(he is both the lowest level one and the prepared one) but he will never gain two on one level.(still cool because of class features)

[Grim Reader]

Yes...at that point, looking into VMC Bard or similar to qualify for a level of Sublime Chord may be a rare case where delaying Wizard progression may be worth it.

I did once make a build with SD Wizard and Ultimate Magus that managed 9th level spells on both sides:)

[schreier]

The definition is in the Rules Compendium, and include being able to cast all its (the class) spells spontaneously, or prepared.

Had never seen the Rules Compendium before, but just downloaded it ... I didn't see that definition - can you point to a page?

Lots of classes could use this clarification (like sublime chord for determining spell level, spellthief shenanigans, etc)

And the goal was to raise wizard through the spontaneous levels, and raise archivist through the prepared (using the ability to modify with spontaneous divination and alternate source spell) -- if that's not possible, no problem ... feels abusive, but trying to play with all of the possible permutations

[Uncle Pine]

The definition is in the Rules Compendium, and include being able to cast all its (the class) spells spontaneously, or prepared.

That's handy, I've never noticed it before. Good to know!

EDIT: It's in the Spontaneous Spellcasting section. The last paragraph in the page details how to treat characters that prepare their spells but can also cast some of them spontaneously.

[Dagroth]

You can get Mystic Theurge to raise Archivist, or Arcane Hierophant if you get Trackless Step (Easiest is be an Elf/Half Elf with 8 ranks of Survival & some other stuff to grab Wildrunner 1).

[schreier]

I see this sentence:

"Such spontaneous casting follows special rules for spontaneous spellcasting, such as how metamagic feats interact with casting time, but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting."

on page 139 ... doesn't exactly define a spontaneous spellcasting class, but does seem to indicate that a prepared spellcaster would not qualify as it is treated as "normal spellcasting" I think?

Doesn't clear up arcane vs divine, but you could apply the same principle ...

I'm not sure how prestige vs base classes apply though (the "advance spellcasting" PrCs that is)