how to use the shriver

[Venger]

the shriver is a magical location in fiendish codex 2 which can grant you a variety of special powers, the most important of which is regeneration. it deals a ton of damage per round and forces ever-increasing saves. if you can survive for 9 rounds, you get all the goodies

while becoming immune to hit point damage is trivial, the primary reason you'd be seeking out the shriver in the first place is probably to get regeneration to complement your immunity to nonlethal damage to make yourself immune to hit point damage.

can anyone think of a way to take advantage of the shriver while still actually needing what it has to offer you?

[noob]

When you have a lot of hit points but not immunity?

[Uncle Pine]

I vaguely remember that location. Does it inflict anything that a Delay Death (and a bunch of healing spells) can't prevent?

If I'm not mistaken you're also required to pass all those forced saves to get regeneration. The relevant Diamond Mind maneuver coupled with Guidance of the Avatar or a good Concentration modifier could help with that.

[OldTrees1]

Solo usage of the Shriver:

State 1: Acquire +2 Fort (If you are alone you will still suffer the 4th round, but you will still gain the R3 ability if you squeal in R4)
Survive 8d20 damage with 4 successful Fort Saves, 3-4 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 2: Acquire Regen 1 (might happen in state 1, from here each state can roll into the next one until you need to get off the table)
Survive 8d20 damage with 4 successful Fort Saves, 4 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 3: Acquire +2 Will
Survive 10d20 damage with 5 successful Fort Saves, 5 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 4: Acquire +2 Will
Survive 10d20 damage with 5 successful Fort Saves, 5 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 5: Acquire Regen 2
Survive 12d20 damage with 6 successful Fort Saves, 6 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 6: Acquire Regen 3
Survive 14d20 damage with 7 successful Fort Saves, 7 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 7: Acquire Regen 5
Survive 16d20 damage with 8 successful Fort Saves, 8 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

Greater Vigor grant fast healing 4 for 9 rounds and can be purchased.

Eventually you might want to get off the table merely to let your now higher regeneration get a head start. In State 7, if you start with the R6 reward, you would take spikes of 2d20 damage (max 40, average 21) and heal 7 per round. 40+7*(21-7)=138

However if you are doing it solo, watch out for those Fort saves. 1 Failure = death to solo users.

[Venger]

When you have a lot of hit points but not immunity?
while that's certainly true, you still need to mitigate the saves, which get pretty darn high.


I vaguely remember that location. Does it inflict anything that a Delay Death (and a bunch of healing spells) can't prevent?

If I'm not mistaken you're also required to pass all those forced saves to get regeneration. The relevant Diamond Mind maneuver coupled with Guidance of the Avatar or a good Concentration modifier could help with that.

No, it doesn't. but if I'm the kind of character who can have persistent delay death etc up, then I can probably already become immune to hp damage some other way and don't really need the shriver.

while moment of perfect mind/ mind over body would be able to dodge one save (since they'd be expended for the encounter) you can't initiate martial maneuvers when you're unable to move, and the shriver locks you in place.

good call on guidance of the avatar if I'm trying to escape via escape artist.


Solo usage of the Shriver:

State 1: Acquire +2 Fort (If you are alone you will still suffer the 4th round, but you will still gain the R3 ability if you squeal in R4)
Survive 8d20 damage with 4 successful Fort Saves, 3-4 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 2: Acquire Regen 1 (might happen in state 1, from here each state can roll into the next one until you need to get off the table)
Survive 8d20 damage with 4 successful Fort Saves, 4 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 3: Acquire +2 Will
Survive 10d20 damage with 5 successful Fort Saves, 5 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 4: Acquire +2 Will
Survive 10d20 damage with 5 successful Fort Saves, 5 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 5: Acquire Regen 2
Survive 12d20 damage with 6 successful Fort Saves, 6 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 6: Acquire Regen 3
Survive 14d20 damage with 7 successful Fort Saves, 7 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

State 7: Acquire Regen 5
Survive 16d20 damage with 8 successful Fort Saves, 8 successful Will Saves, 4 Concentration Checks, and 4 Escape Artist Checks.

Greater Vigor grant fast healing 4 for 9 rounds and can be purchased.

Eventually you might want to get off the table merely to let your now higher regeneration get a head start. In State 7, if you start with the R6 reward, you would take spikes of 2d20 damage (max 40, average 21) and heal 7 per round. 40+7*(21-7)=138

However if you are doing it solo, watch out for those Fort saves. 1 Failure = death to solo users.
good catch that you get the abilities instantaneously after surviving each round. for whatever reason I thought you got the powers after you got out of the shriver, but nothing actually says that.

vigor would put a pretty big dent in it.

as far as getting out of the machine, I don't see anything in the shriver's description that would block your pals from using benign transposition or similar to swap you with a summon once you'd gotten all the powers you need.

yeah doing it solo is a bad idea. generally speaking, you would want to be making will saves to ensure you were at least conscious so you could hit a chicken switch of some kind. it doesn't specify your base saving throw, so any method of boosting your fort higher than your will temporarily would let you use will for the duration.

[ATHATH]

There was a build over on Min/Max Boards that SorO made that was guaranteed to survive this, IIRC.

[OldTrees1]

good catch that you get the abilities instantaneously after surviving each round. for whatever reason I thought you got the powers after you got out of the shriver, but nothing actually says that.

vigor would put a pretty big dent in it.

as far as getting out of the machine, I don't see anything in the shriver's description that would block your pals from using benign transposition or similar to swap you with a summon once you'd gotten all the powers you need.

yeah doing it solo is a bad idea. generally speaking, you would want to be making will saves to ensure you were at least conscious so you could hit a chicken switch of some kind. it doesn't specify your base saving throw, so any method of boosting your fort higher than your will temporarily would let you use will for the duration.

If Benign Transposition would work, here is the patient minimum optimization approach:
At Max you can take 40 damage in a round
At Min you take 2 damage per round

Day 1-X: Get to State 2 (Regen 1)
Strap yourself in while your ally is ready with the escape for when you fail or request extraction. Call for extraction if you get to 30hp or less. Since your goal is State 2 you are only concerned about surviving 46 damage (although rolling a 6 on 6d20 will take ~64,000,000 days not counting saving throws). Minimum HP to pass win confidence is 37hp.

Day X-Y: Get to State 8 (You might notice I am ignoring state 9)
Strap yourself in while your ally is ready with the escape for when you fail (failure is now non lethal due to your Regen 1 because the Shriver is now dealing non lethal damage).

So 37hp + Immorality & a Patient friend with Benign Transposition & a summon.

[Flickerdart]

(although rolling a 6 on 6d20 will take ~64,000,000 days not counting saving throws).
Plot twist - you go to the Shriver to pull off this trick, but the guys ahead in line got to it first, and have several dozen million days to go.

Take a number.

[Zaq]

Can we obviate the Will save requirement by magically removing our ability to speak or cry out? Perhaps a self-inflicted (and therefore relatively easy to break with Remove Curse) Bestow Curse to render yourself incapable of making sounds? I don't think Silence alone is enough, but it might be worth exploring.

I don't see any reason why the old Vigor + Share Pain + Psicrystal trick wouldn't work. That's a very reliable method of gaining a hell of a lot of effective HP, especially if you have some kind of contingent effect re-upping the Vigor midway through. (I wouldn't count on being able to manifest it normally, since that's going to be a monstrous Concentration check, but I'm sure there's something that could help. Delay Power, perhaps?) Psicrystals are constructs, so they're a little obnoxious to heal normally, meaning that we'd need to be very careful not to break through the temp HP, but I think that's doable with enough juice. A character with access to the V/SP/PsC trick still can benefit from regeneration, though.

Does Freedom of Movement obviate the Escape Artist checks, or do we still need to make those? Alternatively, could a short-range teleportation effect obviate the Escape Artist part?

Isn't there a spell out there that makes all dice rolled against you roll minimum damage? I know about Damp Power, but I thought there was something more all-purpose than that.

[WhamBamSam]

You might need Regeneration to qualify for something. The Detach feat in Savage Species is the only thing I know of with Regeneration as a prereq, but it's a pretty fun one.

And you don't need to be able to cast Delay Death and the like yourself. Maybe pay for the spellcasting services of a 10th level evil Cleric so he can buff you up, have his undead minions break you out after 9 rounds, then heal you up before you die. Now you have Regeneration basically forever (so long as you keep doing sufficiently evil things, once in a while) for just a one time monetary investment.

[Zanos]

Pay the magical location cost from your starting wealth and say you made all the checks. :smalltongue:

It's not just the regeneration if I remember correctly, the Shriver also gives a host of immunities to some fairly nasty conditions.

[OldTrees1]

You might need Regeneration to qualify for something. The Detach feat in Savage Species is the only thing I know of with Regeneration as a prereq, but it's a pretty fun one.

And you don't need to be able to cast Delay Death and the like yourself. Maybe pay for the spellcasting services of a 10th level evil Cleric so he can cast Delay Death on you, have his undead minions break you out after 9 rounds, then heal you up before you die. Now you have Regeneration basically forever (so long as you keep doing sufficiently evil things, once in a while) for just a one time monetary investment.

The Recharge is harder than you think.

[WhamBamSam]

The Recharge is harder than you think.I don't have the book in front of me. Don't you just have to commit an act that qualifies as depraved (or some synonym thereof) under some specified definition once in a while?

[Zaq]

I don't have the book in front of me. Don't you just have to commit an act that qualifies as depraved (or some synonym thereof) under some specified definition once in a while?

If you're not LE, you need to commit Corrupt and Obeisant acts, which push you towards being Evil and Lawful, respectively. (And specifically towards being LE in a way that gives the Nine Hells claim over your soul.)

If you're already LE, you need to induce a separate non-LE character to commit those Corrupt and Obeisant acts, thereby making them closer to LE.

Or you can go back into the Shriver again, of course . . .

[Zanos]

You can just cast dominate/diplomacy/intimidate someone into fulfilling the recharge if you're already LE.

I mean using this definitely condemns your soul to Hell as written, but staying dead isn't really a strong suit for people who're using the shriver anyway.

[Segev]

If it only requires periodic Lawful and Evil acts to recharge, but doesn't go away if you perform Chaotic and Good acts, you could arguably maintain a NE or TN alignment while keeping it charged, as long as you played the "balance of extremes" variant on Neutral.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't your god get first dibs on your soul? A Lawful Evil deity would be pleased by your acts, and a Neutral (or Chaotic Neutral) one might be amused by your balancing act. So you can shrive all you want and still get a better afterlife than average Joe Badguy.

[OldTrees1]

I don't have the book in front of me. Don't you just have to commit an act that qualifies as depraved (or some synonym thereof) under some specified definition once in a while?

Others expanded while I was gone but I will expand further.

If you are not LE, you must commit an act as severe as your highest rank (luckily multiple lesser acts do count). These acts taint you and once you accumulate 9 points in either category you are damned by the Pact Primeval (The gods signed the pact and thus cannot help you). Even worse, the only way to recover from that taint is to give up the benefit gained, offer an apology & restitution, & pay a scaling fee(60% of your wealth if you have 7 points, 8 and 9 are undefined but might be 70% and 80%). If you get 4 or more points (you will) you also need an atonement spell to ransom back your soul (even before you reach 9 points).

Eventually paying 60+% of your wealth every 99 days will be infeasible so you will go LE. Once you are LE, you must get someone else to commit as severe an act. However they are likely to know that a 9 point act is final. So I would suggest only getting the 8th rank(the 9th is weak anyways).

So the only feasible recharge is to get a non evil person to inflict cruel or painful torture(1d4 to 1d6+1 damage from the hour of torture) twice per 99 days. That would recharge your Regeneration 5. Having them do it once per 99 days would recharge Regeneration 1.

[Venger]

Plot twist - you go to the Shriver to pull off this trick, but the guys ahead in line got to it first, and have several dozen million days to go.

Take a number.

Just as the otyugh hole is used frequently to get free iron will, although it says in the fluff that the whole schtick is jamming you in there for solitary confinement, I imagine the otyugh hole is actually jam packed like a crowded night spot full of people talking to each other about the cool prestige classes they're going to enter and eating overpriced jalapeno poppers. when it gets too full, that's why your gm won't let you do it right away and you need to wait to build up the 3000gp, so it stays compliant with fire code.

I like to imagine the shrivers operate under similar principal


Can we obviate the Will save requirement by magically removing our ability to speak or cry out? Perhaps a self-inflicted (and therefore relatively easy to break with Remove Curse) Bestow Curse to render yourself incapable of making sounds? I don't think Silence alone is enough, but it might be worth exploring.

I don't see any reason why the old Vigor + Share Pain + Psicrystal trick wouldn't work. That's a very reliable method of gaining a hell of a lot of effective HP, especially if you have some kind of contingent effect re-upping the Vigor midway through. (I wouldn't count on being able to manifest it normally, since that's going to be a monstrous Concentration check, but I'm sure there's something that could help. Delay Power, perhaps?) Psicrystals are constructs, so they're a little obnoxious to heal normally, meaning that we'd need to be very careful not to break through the temp HP, but I think that's doable with enough juice. A character with access to the V/SP/PsC trick still can benefit from regeneration, though.

Does Freedom of Movement obviate the Escape Artist checks, or do we still need to make those? Alternatively, could a short-range teleportation effect obviate the Escape Artist part?

Isn't there a spell out there that makes all dice rolled against you roll minimum damage? I know about Damp Power, but I thought there was something more all-purpose than that.
muting yourself is definitely an interesting idea and would take care of that aspect of things.

I don't see any reason the shriver bypasses fom so that's another option as well.

I can't think of any spell that does that. I think it's a divine effect.

that does remind me of deaden blow, though, which would allow you to convert all the shriver's torture to nonlethal damage.


If you're not LE, you need to commit Corrupt and Obeisant acts, which push you towards being Evil and Lawful, respectively. (And specifically towards being LE in a way that gives the Nine Hells claim over your soul.)

If you're already LE, you need to induce a separate non-LE character to commit those Corrupt and Obeisant acts, thereby making them closer to LE.

Or you can go back into the Shriver again, of course . . .
yeah I don't think there's a rule against just using the thing again if your gm won't let you corrupt people, but that gets expensive fast. you'll just have to go out and earn a lot of money

[shaikujin]

Others expanded while I was gone but I will expand further.

If you are not LE, you must commit an act as severe as your highest rank (luckily multiple lesser acts do count). These acts taint you and once you accumulate 9 points in either category you are damned by the Pact Primeval (The gods signed the pact and thus cannot help you). Even worse, the only way to recover from that taint is to give up the benefit gained, offer an apology & restitution, & pay a scaling fee(60% of your wealth if you have 7 points, 8 and 9 are undefined but might be 70% and 80%). If you get 4 or more points (you will) you also need an atonement spell to ransom back your soul (even before you reach 9 points).

Eventually paying 60+% of your wealth every 99 days will be infeasible so you will go LE. Once you are LE, you must get someone else to commit as severe an act. However they are likely to know that a 9 point act is final. So I would suggest only getting the 8th rank(the 9th is weak anyways).

So the only feasible recharge is to get a non evil person to inflict cruel or painful torture(1d4 to 1d6+1 damage from the hour of torture) twice per 99 days. That would recharge your Regeneration 5. Having them do it once per 99 days would recharge Regeneration 1.

A possibly more palatable (but no less cheesy) option for anyone who is not Lawful Evil -
Carry out a act of obeisance. (Shriver accepts either corrupt OR obeisance acts).

One of the acts of obeisance is following a rule you think is stupid (3 points). Not a law, but a rule.

So, find (or open) an upscale inn where there is a rule for proper dress codes (or stupid dress codes such as wearing ruffles and a feathered hat). You think it's stupid rule, but nonetheless, once a month, you eat at the inn and adhere to their stupid dress code rules.

That would give the 9 obeisance points required by the Shriver every 99 days.

(Because Shriver accepts corrupt or obeisance acts from non-LE characters, even a Lawful Good character can do this since he is not LE).

Of course, obeisance points function like corruption points. A score of 9 and above upon death still means going to Baator.

Funny image - for redemption, you bring a Chaotic Cleric with you to the inn. You go in without following the dress code, and do the redemption fasting there.

[Deophaun]

Of course, obeisance points function like corruption points. A score of 9 and above upon death still means going to Baator.
Only if you're evil. Obeisance points simply move your alignment towards Lawful but don't otherwise give Baator a claim on you, which is why FCII says devils that focus on tricking mortals into performing acts of obeisance pose as demons to make demon-worshipers lawful; those newly minted Lawful Evil souls are ripe for Baator, while a newly minted Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good wouldn't be.

If performing acts of obeisance alone consigned you to Baator, then looking at the list of obeisant acts, every paladin ever is there.

[shaikujin]

Only if you're evil.
...
...
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If performing acts of obeisance alone consigned you to Baator, then looking at the list of obeisant acts, every paladin ever is there.

That's even better! So, that means we just got a free get out of jail card?


On the other hand, under the corruption section, it just says any lawful character (no mention of good or evil in this section) who dies with a corruption score of 9 or more, goes to Baatar regardless of how many orphans he saved.

Then again, I guess the corruption and obeisance scores only applies to characters who made a pact with an actual devil. So paladins who have not made any such pacts are absolutely safe.

[Telok]

RE: Making someone else perform various acts

Leadership or Thrallherd