Reworking Goblins - The Green Tide

[Silus]

So me and a friend of mine are looking at reworking goblins for a homebrew setting and we're having a little bit of trouble sorting a thing out and I was hoping we could get some assistance on it.

So we're taking the standard Pathfinder Goblin and switching up the tactics and societal makeup to that of an amalgam of Kobolds (with the traps and scary cleverness), Skaven (Warhammer Fantasy, with the specialized clans, overwhelming hordes of mooks, use of poisons and disease, and general sneaky skullduggery), and Orks (the WAAAGH! method of warfare, looting technology, and "the strongest/most clever leads" leadership). All of that is well and good and easy enough but here comes the issue: How do you make Goblins threatening beyond, say, level 5 or 6?

One idea that my friend had was to give them the ability to auto-Aid Another, though I was thinking for higher levels give them the ability to get additive flanking bonuses (If 5 goblins are in melee with the party they all count as flanking and have the bonus stack, so each goblin would get +8 to hit). Swarming would be another option. Basically looking for a quick and dirty way to make a green tide of goblins a credible threat to a party up to about level 10 or so without having to give them all class levels. Increased HP or attack damage isn't needed, just the ability to hit the PCs. The idea is a horde of easy to kill mooks that can and will damage you little by little.

So, any advice?

[Kol Korran]

Hmmm... I think I'd go with using Team work Feats. In one of a few options:
1- Simplest way: A bonus Teamwork feat at 1st level. Goblins in your world work exceptionally well together and this is part of their training. you can give different groups different feats, thus making more "specialized teams".

2- "United we conquer!"- while goblins don't normally posses a team work feat, if they gather in sufficient numbers, a powerful enough leader can quickly train them in such feats. Mechanically this means that only groups of a certain size, and/or led by a sufficiently strong leader, may gain such feats.

3- The Tactician ability: Some classes/ archetypes (Cavalier comes to mind) have the ability to give others team work feats, even if those others don't qualify. Have such individuals (Say... hunting/war party leaders/ support) lead some groups of goblins. I even think there is some sort of a worg rider racial archetype? (Perhaps for hobgoblins?) You can add your own archetype, just for goblins, that enables using such ability for larger/ more wide spread groups.

Just my ideas.

[Silus]

Hmmm... I think I'd go with using Team work Feats. In one of a few options:
1- Simplest way: A bonus Teamwork feat at 1st level. Goblins in your world work exceptionally well together and this is part of their training. you can give different groups different feats, thus making more "specialized teams".

2- "United we conquer!"- while goblins don't normally posses a team work feat, if they gather in sufficient numbers, a powerful enough leader can quickly train them in such feats. Mechanically this means that only groups of a certain size, and/or led by a sufficiently strong leader, may gain such feats.

3- The Tactician ability: Some classes/ archetypes (Cavalier comes to mind) have the ability to give others team work feats, even if those others don't qualify. Have such individuals (Say... hunting/war party leaders/ support) lead some groups of goblins. I even think there is some sort of a worg rider racial archetype? (Perhaps for hobgoblins?) You can add your own archetype, just for goblins, that enables using such ability for larger/ more wide spread groups.

Just my ideas.

I am liking the tactician idea honestly, though I think if I was going to go with that I'd give them a pool of teamwork feats they would have access to as opposed to the straight "only teamwork feats you have access to" rule. I do agree with the groups of certain sizes only getting teamwork feats though.

The problem I'm facing however is stat drop-off of your standard goblin. Each is a 1/3 CR and only has a +2 to hit. The issue isn't more or better tactics unless we go full Kobold with them and have all the damage be from traps and such, the trouble is boosting the to-hit to scale with the levels of the PCs. 1d4 damage isn't a lot, even at low levels, but when 5 or 6 goblins can hit you for 1d4 a round, even at level 7 or 8, then things start getting a little worrying, and that's what we're trying to accomplish.

[Sayt]

For this odea, I'd consider taking a look at the Morlock, and consider nicking the swarming ability, which might be thematic for a tide of gerblins.

[Silus]

For this odea, I'd consider taking a look at the Morlock, and consider nicking the swarming ability, which might be thematic for a tide of gerblins.

Was thinking that as well to be honest. A green tide of swarming goblins with Teamwork feats that have just trapped you in their warren with a cleverly disguised trap.

Fun times :smallamused:

[Malroth]

If you want to give your goblins tech then making Gunslinger instead of Warrior or Commoner be the Default class for the Mooks and having Bards for squad Leaders does a whole lot for correcting the accuracy problem.

[Silus]

If you want to give your goblins tech then making Gunslinger instead of Warrior or Commoner be the Default class for the Mooks and having Bards for squad Leaders does a whole lot for correcting the accuracy problem.

I might do that for specialist goblins (Gunslingers, Rogues/Slayers, Alchemists, etc.), but the bulk of them I want to be Warriors but keep the stock HD but boost the to-hit from the stock +2 to whatever levels that make them a credible threat to higher level players.

By that I mean keep the 1d4 damage of the standard Warrior lvl 1 Goblin, but make it so said goblin can hit a, say, lvl 10 character with level equivalent gear. I want it to be where even a lvl 1 goblin, in a horde, is a credible threat to Mr. Big Fighter with full plate and some magic kit. The issue, at the moment, is the mooks.

The short and sweet version is I just scale the to-hit appropriately (increase their innate BAB or something) to keep up with the PCs but leave the damage and HD all the same so it's death by 1000 cuts instead of 1-hit-KO or something. That way it keeps the weak creatures in an unstoppable tide vibe but makes it so they can actually do something to the PCs and so the goblins don't have to rely on just critical hits to deal damage.

[Malroth]

Which is why Gunslinger 1 for goblin Mooks actually works, they're making 1d6 (small pistol) touch attacks at +6 or 7 to hit before Inspire courage aid another enhancement or flanking bonuses.

[Pugwampy]

The idea is a horde of easy to kill mooks that can and will damage you little by little.


Have you considered instead of mutating the cute little buttons , why not just give em easy access to a barrel or two of True Strike potion .

Have the players wonder why these gobos keep running away and taking a swig ? :smallwink:

[Albertus Magus]

I suggest using Underlings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408198-3P-Pathfinder-Review-Rule-Zero-Underlings) and Force multipliers, aka Skalds/Bards.

Furthermore, Goblin (Pyro-)kineticists with Roll with it are annoying little buggers for CR 1/2.

[Silus]

I suggest using Underlings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408198-3P-Pathfinder-Review-Rule-Zero-Underlings) and Force multipliers, aka Skalds/Bards.

Furthermore, Goblin (Pyro-)kineticists with Roll with it are annoying little buggers for CR 1/2.

Not gonna lie the Underlings thing is the closest I've seen to what I'm trying to do.

Waves of 50 goblins vs 4-5 PCs in a meat grinder maneuver with specialist goblins (alchemists, gunslingers, kineticists, etc.) harassing the PCs from within the ranks. Fireballs and AOE attacks might buy you some time but expect waaaaay more 'cause you didn't just aggro a patrol, you aggroed all of Moria and they're coming for YOU.

[Karl Aegis]

Have you tried using their racial traits?

They have a large bonus to dexterity, ride and stealth. Use ranged weapons. Hide. Ride. They normally come with goblin dogs, wolves or worgs in temperate forests or just worgs in temperate plains. All of these have 50 foot movement speed, enough to keep their riders away from someone in magical plate armor indefinitely.

Spread out. The more of you hiding together, the more likely one of you will be found. If one of you gets found, that's just one of you. Maybe use a distracting volley of slings or javelins so your buddy can get away. Maybe separate into more than one group so you can get a pincer attack or surround easier. Maybe don't stand so close to someone else that if an arrow misses that guy it won't hit you in your over-sized head. You have fast movement. Use it to outmaneuver your enemies. Don't just stand still in melee and hope you won't eat a full attack. If someone is getting close to you, move in the other direction. Use the Run action if you have to. Not even wolves stay in melee for long unless the all their enemies are flat on their back and almost dead.

Apparently you have reach weapons as racial weapons. If you have larger groups you can use those to cover for your ranged buddies while they retreat behind you. Skirmish tactics and such.

If all else fails, light a barrel full of flammable liquid on fire, attach a rope to it, spin it around you and let go. Hopefully something will be on fire by the time the barrel explodes into fiery death.

[Fouredged Sword]

Alchemical splash weapons can make goblins much more threatening for another 3-4 levels until energy resistances kick off as a solid defense.

[TheifofZ]

Well. As suggested earlier, underling might be a good method, but so would a trait that gives them bonus to hit that scales with numbers. (Say, +1 to hit for every 5~ goblins, rounding down) so a mob of 10 goblins, or a reasonable CR 2~4 encounter wouldn't be bumped too much; just +2 to hit right up till the first goblin dies.
But 50 goblins would add +10, which would mean that, for a CR 7~ encounter that only scaled due to numbers, the party tanks would still be in trouble; the party will need to drop the goblin's morale quite a bit by thinning their numbers before the greenskins aren't constantly hitting everyone.
Add in some teamwork buff platforms with various kinds of troop commanders, and suddenly a horde of 100 goblins with 3 obvious leaders in it is actually something the party will think seriously about approaching, even at level 12 when that would normally be laughed off.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would point out the aid other action and note just how many goblins can be fit around a 5x5 square.