[Pathfinder] Question : Vigor, Wounds and Non-lethal

[Laurent]

If using Vigor and Wounds system from Ultimate Combat, it's said that non-lethal damage go to Vigor points (so, there's not separated "Non-lethal" jauge).

How do you knock out somebody ? Does a character falls unconscious if 0 Vigor if hit with a non-lethal weapon ? If so, does he stays conscious if hit with a lethal weapon ?

[Kallimakus]

I use Wounds and Vigor, and upon reading the rules with my players came to the conclusion that they do not support being brought to unconsciousness.

Now, this is only a house rule I made, but once a character loses all their vigor, they have a nonlethal bar alongside their wounds. If brought below their wounds threshold by nonlethal damage, they fall unconscious. Thus, a character using a nonlethal weapon has 3 options:
-Use nonlethal damage to inflict 1 wound
-Use nonlethal damage to try and knock the enemy character out
-Take the -4 penalty to attack roll to deal lethal damage.

Because the nonlethal damage is besides wounds, it is only healed with rest or healing Wounds via magic. (A Wound-targeting heal would still heal both, healing just Vigor affects neither.

Fortunately, it rarely comes up.

[Laurent]

I use Wounds and Vigor, and upon reading the rules with my players came to the conclusion that they do not support being brought to unconsciousness.

Now, this is only a house rule I made, but once a character loses all their vigor, they have a nonlethal bar alongside their wounds. If brought below their wounds threshold by nonlethal damage, they fall unconscious. Thus, a character using a nonlethal weapon has 3 options:
-Use nonlethal damage to inflict 1 wound
-Use nonlethal damage to try and knock the enemy character out
-Take the -4 penalty to attack roll to deal lethal damage.

Because the nonlethal damage is besides wounds, it is only healed with rest or healing Wounds via magic. (A Wound-targeting heal would still heal both, healing just Vigor affects neither.

Fortunately, it rarely comes up.

I like it, so in short, non-lethal attacks hit Vigor points and then Non-lethal Wounds until threshold.
That seems good.

It gives me an idea... A "problem" of the game around my table is that sometimes my player complain that you cannot knock-out a guy in one shot, from behind, like in movies...
Maybe we could add a rule to yours : "When a character is flatfooted because he's not aware of the presence of an enemy, any non-lethal attack targets his non-lethal Wounds points. The attacker can be one category smaller than the victim, but not smaller than that".
If you attain the threshold in one attack, he's knocked out and unconscious, but if not, next attack will target Vigor points and you cannot knock out him in one hit anymore.
It seems to me not really abuseable, because in order to short cut a fight this way, you need to have only one opponent, unaware of your presence, and you take the risk of starting in a fight with a non-lethal weapon in hand.
And you cannot knock-out huge creatures if you are medium.

[Kallimakus]

I like it, so in short, non-lethal attacks hit Vigor points and then Non-lethal Wounds until threshold.
That seems good.

It gives me an idea... A "problem" of the game around my table is that sometimes my player complain that you cannot knock-out a guy in one shot, from behind, like in movies...
Maybe we could add a rule to yours : "When a character is flatfooted because he's not aware of the presence of an enemy, any non-lethal attack targets his non-lethal Wounds points. The attacker can be one category smaller than the victim, but not smaller than that".
If you attain the threshold in one attack, he's knocked out and unconscious, but if not, next attack will target Vigor points and you cannot knock out him in one hit anymore.
It seems to me not really abuseable, because in order to short cut a fight this way, you need to have only one opponent, unaware of your presence, and you take the risk of starting in a fight with a non-lethal weapon in hand.
And you cannot knock-out huge creatures if you are medium.

While I have not officially decided a stance on this personally since it hasn't come up (and my sneaky type players have tended to take a more lethal approach), I've considered exactly that (or rather, a character completely unaware of combat (like, asleep) has no vigor points at all). Thus the end result is pretty much the same. I like that idea.

[Slipperychicken]

It gives me an idea... A "problem" of the game around my table is that sometimes my player complain that you cannot knock-out a guy in one shot, from behind, like in movies...
Maybe we could add a rule to yours : "When a character is flatfooted because he's not aware of the presence of an enemy, any non-lethal attack targets his non-lethal Wounds points. The attacker can be one category smaller than the victim, but not smaller than that".
If you attain the threshold in one attack, he's knocked out and unconscious, but if not, next attack will target Vigor points and you cannot knock out him in one hit anymore.
It seems to me not really abuseable, because in order to short cut a fight this way, you need to have only one opponent, unaware of your presence, and you take the risk of starting in a fight with a non-lethal weapon in hand.
And you cannot knock-out huge creatures if you are medium.

It's a shame that PF doesn't have a stronger system for resolving attacks and damage. A lot of problems like this could have been avoided by simply giving a better model for hits, damage, evasive action, unawareness and the like.