What keeps a Sorcerer at Tier-2?

[Barstro]

Please note, this is specific to Pathfinder.

Gnaeus will probably soon be asking about what tier the Sorcerer should be. Rather than have this discussion on that upcoming thread (and potentially derailing it), I figured I post it now.

Accepting the fact that Wizard is Tier-1, what exactly keeps a Sorcerer Tier-2?

Observations and conclusions;
This is based on "all else equal". The retort of "but the Wizard gets ___" is ignoring my initial statement of "all else equal". I'm not discounting the fact that Wizards get shiny things, that just isn't important at this initial stage.

1) Spontaneous casting allows for more options on the fly. Spontaneous is preferred to prepared.
2) More spells per day allows the caster to do more things. More available spell slots is preferred
3) Assuming higher level spells are better than lower level spells; More high-level spell slots, even at the cost of lower slots, is preferred.

Assuming ONLY the above, Sorcerer appears to be better than a Wizard. All known spells are available at any given time and the Sorcerer generally has more spell slots.

The obvious counter arguments are;
1) At even levels, the Wizard can cast higher level spells.
2) The Sorcerer has only a limited number of spells known, so "being able to cast anything at any time" doesn't' mean much when "anything" is one of maybe a dozen spells.

I respond to #1 with "Sorcerers have more spell slots at all odd levels and all levels after 17.

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge/).

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

I'm willing to concede that there are enough things about both classes I do not know which still keeps Wizard as the best Tier-1, but does Page of Spell Knowledge (along with time and money to purchase the same) elevate Sorcerers to Tier-1, or do they stay at Tier-2?

[Gellhorn]

(Note that my view of sorcerer tiering is T2 with the razmiran priest/false priest archetype making them T1 and imo better than wizards post 9)

First off, the difference in spells known gets a lot smaller once you factor in that the wizard should pretty much always be specialising.

Secondly, gaining access to spells a level earlier is *really* useful, more so than having a couple of extra spells, especially past early levels when you've got plenty of slots anyway.

Thirdly, if you're talking about JaronK's tier definitions (and most definitions I've seen, tbh), the key difference between T1 and T2 is being able to say "tomorrow I want to use this trick". Spell pages are handy yes (and funnily enough you can make them without knowing the spell with the correct feat which also halves their price) but they're a good amount more expensive than scrolls and to the best of my understanding the tier list tends to kinda disregard "they're tier 1 if they've got this specific build/item".

[Barstro]

(Note that my view of sorcerer tiering is T2 with the razmiran priest/false priest archetype making them T1 and imo better than wizards post 9)

First off, the difference in spells known gets a lot smaller once you factor in that the wizard should pretty much always be specialising.

Secondly, gaining access to spells a level earlier is *really* useful, more so than having a couple of extra spells, especially past early levels when you've got plenty of slots anyway.

Thirdly, if you're talking about JaronK's tier definitions (and most definitions I've seen, tbh), the key difference between T1 and T2 is being able to say "tomorrow I want to use this trick". Spell pages are handy yes (and funnily enough you can make them without knowing the spell with the correct feat which also halves their price) but they're a good amount more expensive than scrolls and to the best of my understanding the tier list tends to kinda disregard "they're tier 1 if they've got this specific build/item".

"First off"; the difference is smaller, but it still favors the Sorcerer.
"Secondly"; again is only at even levels. At odd levels, the Sorcerer is better. But, I agree; Wizard is much better at even levels and only slightly worse at odd levels (assuming all spell slots need to be used)
"Thirdly"; now we get into a debate over having money to do things, the ability trade with other casters, etc. We also get to debate the unlimited use of a Page of Spell Knowledge vs. the one-time use of a scroll.

I think that there can be specific Sorcerer builds that would classify at Tier-1 to the vast majority of people, but I agree that tiering should be general. If the "average" Sorcerer is still not Tier-1 with PoSK, then they should still be considered Tier-2.

[Gnaeus]

Please note, this is specific to Pathfinder.

Gnaeus will probably soon be asking about what tier the Sorcerer should be. Rather than have this discussion on that upcoming thread (and potentially derailing it), I figured I post it now.

Accepting the fact that Wizard is Tier-1, what exactly keeps a Sorcerer Tier-2?

Observations and conclusions;
This is based on "all else equal". The retort of "but the Wizard gets ___" is ignoring my initial statement of "all else equal". I'm not discounting the fact that Wizards get shiny things, that just isn't important at this initial stage.

1) Spontaneous casting allows for more options on the fly. Spontaneous is preferred to prepared.
2) More spells per day allows the caster to do more things. More available spell slots is preferred
3) Assuming higher level spells are better than lower level spells; More high-level spell slots, even at the cost of lower slots, is preferred.

Assuming ONLY the above, Sorcerer appears to be better than a Wizard. All known spells are available at any given time and the Sorcerer generally has more spell slots.

The obvious counter arguments are;
1) At even levels, the Wizard can cast higher level spells.
2) The Sorcerer has only a limited number of spells known, so "being able to cast anything at any time" doesn't' mean much when "anything" is one of maybe a dozen spells.

I respond to #1 with "Sorcerers have more spell slots at all odd levels and all levels after 17.

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge/).

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

I'm willing to concede that there are enough things about both classes I do not know which still keeps Wizard as the best Tier-1, but does Page of Spell Knowledge (along with time and money to purchase the same) elevate Sorcerers to Tier-1, or do they stay at Tier-2?

Not gonna argue it here, better just to start the thread. But my answer in PF is really that there is a tipping point where more spells known> spells in spellbook. A 3.5 sorcerer has a hard time picking downtime spells at competitive levels. The PF sorcerer gets 9 bloodline spells, powers and up to 17 spells from favored class is likely enough spells. Yes, maybe there's a page of spell knowledge, a wand or scroll or 2, but when you hit as many spells known as the wizard has on his adventuring, overland and downtime lists (there will be overlap), the marginal trick of swapping out a specific spell is not necessarily better than the ability to use resist energy 6 times if you need to.

[Tuvarkz]

Regarding Spontaneous casting and options on the fly-the wizard can prepare a spell in as quick as 1 minute (arcane discovery), or 1 full round action (Exploiter Wizard or Spellbinder).

More spells per day only applies to non-Thassilonian (Sin Magic) Wizards, and although preferred, Runestones of Power cost twice as much as Pearls of Power, making it cheaper to recharge wizard spell slots than sorcerer ones. Plus, a wizard can be efficient with his spell slots, and needs not burn through all his stuff in each combat (And so can the sorcerer, but having less spell slots, each spell slot saved matters more for a wizard). Also, Split Slot is a thing.

And yeah, while a sorcerer spends thousands upon thousands carrying pages of spell knowledge, the wizard gets to transcribe many more spells, and use the remaining gold to grab rods/scrolls/wands/you name it. And Pages of Spell knowledge get crazy expensive with later levels. There are plenty of spells that don't really need CL or a strong DC scaling to do their job.

Also, want to know the rough difference in terms of spell amounts? A sorcerer gets around 50-something spells, 70 and some with the right FCB. 50-something is about the average number of spells in each school, and the Wizard gets 6 schools, plus ways to grab spells of his opposition ones too.

There's a reason why Paragon Surge used to be considered a Tier-1 enabler for Sorcerer, and the False Priest PrC is still one. Tier 1 is not about how big your nukes get, but how many different kinds of nuke you can have at hand.

[Epic Legand]

There are countless ways in which the wizard is better then the Sorc. Numerous feats, class ability's and magic items allow the wizard to swap out a prepared spell for one in there book. The higher you go in levels the vastly wider this gap becomes. This means a wizard can add a spell to his book for almost nothing, and yet, on the fly always have that available. How often do you need dimensional anchor ? Not often at mid levels, but pulling out of your book on the fly ? Priceless. Yes, a Sorc could buy endless scrolls and have them available, but the expansion of the Wizard spell book is almost geometrical once in game. Defeat the bad guy...get his spellbook, and add all of them to yours. Have a friend ? share spellbooks and swap. Buy a knowstone and the price rapidly become more then a +5 item...and you have added just ONE spell. Meanwhile, the wizard just added a hundred spells to his book for less money.
You also already know the wizard can alter his spell list day to day, so today, he's a fire mage and the white dragon has a bad day. Tomorrow, he's an information gathering guru while your recouping in town. The next day, he ferry's the whole party to a different land or dimension. Add into that the clear advantages of your main stat being Intelligence vs Charisma, and then keep in mind, most games are not at 20th level. At 5th level, the Wizard specialist is casting 3-4 3ed level spells, probably DIFFRENT spells. How many is the Sorcerer, ZERO ? This curve in favor of the Wizard is carried out in feats, magic items and class advancement.
Is the Sorcerer powerful and awesome, yes. Is there a clear advantage to the Wizard, Also yes.

[Bucky]

Ultimate Magic has a bunch of spellbooks that can be bought on the open market. They're much cheaper than Pages of Spell Knowledge of the same level and come with many spells each.

[Psyren]

I heartily accept #2 and call Sorcerers weaker. HOWEVER, sorcerers have access to Page of Spell Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page-of-spell-knowledge/).

This really expensive, but it gives the Sorcerer pretty much all the versatility of a Wizard, and they still have more spells per day. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the only difference now is that a Wizard can prepare a metamagic version of a spell without increasing casting time.

But the obvious counter to this is that Wizards can spend the same amount of money on Pearls of Power instead, and thus bridge the spells/day gap. And that's if they even need to - at most tables, "I don't have enough spells today" is generally less of a problem than "I don't have the specific spell we need." Past the lowest levels, you'd need a lot of encounters in a given day before either class truly runs dry.

The Wizard can stock up on all kinds of unknown/situational spells during his downtime; the sorcerer doing the same via Pages becomes exponentially more expensive. If I need to go and get a given 7th level spell for instance, my wizard only needs 2275gp (scroll cost) + 490gp (scribing cost) = 2,765gp. The same endeavor for the sorcerer costs a whopping 49,000gp. And keep in mind this is per spell - while a wizard can get by with just a couple of generic pearls for his highest level spells, the sorcerer ends up needing a separate Page for every spell at a given level that his spells known don't cover. Take 5th-level spells for instance - at 10th level, the sorcerer gets only 1, while at 11th level, they get a second one plus one more from their bloodline; their FCB doesn't even kick in until 12th, so that's 3 total. I can easily think of more than 3 5th-level spells that are worth casting repeatedly, never mind 5th-level spells that are situationally valuable.

[Gellhorn]

Add into that the clear advantages of your main stat being Intelligence vs Charisma

Although it *is* always amusing to take the Int casting stat... especially since you can convert most of the important skills over to intelligence too.




There's a reason why Paragon Surge used to be considered a Tier-1 enabler for Sorcerer, and the False Priest PrC is still one. Tier 1 is not about how big your nukes get, but how many different kinds of nuke you can have at hand.

Minor point of correction- pretty sure you mean the False Priest archetype. The only False/Razmiran Priest PRC I can think of basically gives you some temporary HP cure X wounds spells and the ability to fool people into thinking they were real.

But yeah, people are expressing my points more eloquently than I could.

[Segev]

Numerous feats, class ability's and magic items allow the wizard to swap out a prepared spell for one in there book.

Is there a guide that has this information in it? I have not found many of these feats or magic items. I'm less interested in the class abilities, though I wouldn't turn my nose up at reading up on them, either.

[Peat]

Unless someone's redefined the Tier boundaries, the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer doesn't come down to how many nukes they can launch a day, its who's got the bigger overall arsenal of nukes. The Wizard (theoretically) has a huge arsenal of potential encounter enders and campaign solvers/ruiners. The Sorcerer's is limited by spells known and can't (money aside) have a huge arsenal.

For me, the question of whether Sorcerers are still Tier 2 at Pathfinder would hinge on how many 'nuke' spells there are. If there's 60 or so nukes and the Sorcerer gets 20/30 of them, are they still a tier below Wizards?

[Gnaeus]

I would add that wizard > sorcerer doesn't mean sorc is T2, since there are weaker T1s. Does Sorc > Witch or Druid in PF? If yes, PF sorc is T1

[Calthropstu]

If we allow 3rd party content, sorcerers are T1 with a simple trick of grabbing an item capable of manifesting psychic reformation.

Also, you guys have odd and even reversed. Sorcerers are better on even levels, 1st level, 19th level and 20th. So let's take a look:
Yes, there are ways, via spells, to completely obliterate wbl really late game. Most games end before reaching that point, but let's go level by level.

Lvl 1: Sorcerer is a clear winner. A wizard barely has enough spells to be useful for a single combat.
Lvl 2: Same as lvl 1. A wizard has just enough now to be useful in 2 combats if spells are stretched.
Lvl 3: Here is where the argument begins. Wizard gets lvl 2 spells first. The sorcerer still has more spells per day, and is still able to stretch himself for more encounters, but the 2nd level spells that can be used make the one combat they are used in a much bigger deal.
Lvl 4: Sorcerer now gets 2nd lvl spells, but they're a 1 trick pony. They don't get their bloodline spell until 5th, so they literally only have 1 2nd level spell. Granted, the wizard now only has 2 2nd level spells, but they can swap from day to day. And pages of spell knowledge are prohibitively expensive at this point. It's arguable who is better at this point. The wizard's lower spell count is still a major hindrance, but the versatility is starting to show.
5th level, wizards get 3rd level spells and can now generally stretch themselves across the standard adventuring day. Sorcerer comes into 2 more 2nd level spells known gaining reasonable versatility with 2nd level spells. The 3rd level spells the wizard has easily trumps the 2nd level spells, but again the spell count is still a thing.
6th level - 18th level: The dynamics of 4th and 5th level repeat. Spells per day are an issue at top tier spells, but as higher spells become available, and lower spells become obsolete the sorcerers numeric advantage in spells per day becomes less relevant, and the wizard's versatility becomes more relevant. Pages of spell knowledge at top tier spells remain prohibitively expensive throughout the life of the character.
Now there IS the fact you can use feats to gain more spells known, but feats are precious and better used elsewhere.

Outside of spell casting, the sorcerer has a huge social advantage being charisma based, while wizards have a major skill advantage being int based. The social advantage of the sorcerer makes them ideal for planar binding, which is a great way for them to overcome a huge amount of the handicaps of their spell restrictions.

Not so much with lesser planar binding, but with planar binding and greater planar binding they are able to call, with greater reliability than a wizard, spell casters with the same versatility as wizards. Greater can even call creatures with 9th level spells... getting them before other classes.

So there are ways to mitigate the whole spells known issue. With planar binding you can pretty much access any spell in the game... so beyond 12th level I say sorcerer wins out due to the fact they are better at binding than wizards are. But binding opens the door for a gm smack down so caution is advised.

[Bucky]

How good are Shadow Evocation/Conjuration/Necromancy/Enchantment at mitigating the Sorcerer's lack of versatility?

[Tuvarkz]

Although it *is* always amusing to take the Int casting stat... especially since you can convert most of the important skills over to intelligence too.



Minor point of correction- pretty sure you mean the False Priest archetype. The only False/Razmiran Priest PRC I can think of basically gives you some temporary HP cure X wounds spells and the ability to fool people into thinking they were real.

But yeah, people are expressing my points more eloquently than I could.

Yeah, the archetype. Got a bit distracted while writing that last part, my bad.

[Calthropstu]

How good are Shadow Evocation/Conjuration/Necromancy/Enchantment at mitigating the Sorcerer's lack of versatility?

Not very. You're using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells.

[Felyndiira]

I would add that wizard > sorcerer doesn't mean sorc is T2, since there are weaker T1s. Does Sorc > Witch or Druid in PF? If yes, PF sorc is T1

I think this is the key point in this thread. Rather than comparing Sorcerers to Wizards, how are their versatility (especially when you factoring spells like the Shadow spells) compared to the weaker T1s? Can they solve more problems than the Cleric? The Druid? The Witch?

[Barstro]

I think this is the key point in this thread. Rather than comparing Sorcerers to Wizards, how are their versatility (especially when you factoring spells like the Shadow spells) compared to the weaker T1s? Can they solve more problems than the Cleric? The Druid? The Witch?

The point wasn't so much comparing Sorcerers to Wizards; it was trying to figure out what specific thing(s) dropped Sorcerers to Tier-2.
EDIT: Since Sorcerers are closest to Wizards and share the same spells, this seemed the logical choice to demonstrate the contrast.

The followup question was if Page of Spell Knowledge removes said Thing(s).

To respond the the argument I read most often (I admittedly only skimmed) is that Wizards get all sorts of spells, while Sorcerers need lots of money.

That is sort of a true arguments, but I think the details helps contradict it.

1) Wizards get lots of spells, but they still have to pay for them. Sure, it's less than Sorcerers for stuff, but knowledge of all spells is not inherent in the class (unlike, say, Cleric).

2) This is where my main question comes up (What makes Sorcerer Tier-2 instead of Tier-1); Books full of spells enable Wizards to prepare any spell required at a moment's notice. A Sorcerer is not so lucky.

2a) Again, a Sorcerer can have spent all sorts of money to obtain every PoSK, thus getting rid of that argument. I consider this a very questionable counter-argument and discount it greatly.

2b) A Sorcerer has his whole arsenal available right away. A Wizard had better know what is coming up, have coincidentally prepared for what he didn't know, or find the time to prepare a spell. He'd better not hope to do this in the middle of combat.

2b(2)) What length of time keeps thing "Tier-1"? With enough time (which isn't all that much), a Sorcerer can find somebody with the correct PoSK and use his fine charisma to rent it for a while.

The arguments above also depend on "Solve a Problem". A Wizard of sufficient level can, with enough time and money to obtain full spellbooks, solve any problem. Realistically, what number of spells are necessary for someone to be able to solve every problem if with a bit more difficulty than said rich Wizard?

To disagree with Peat;
A Sorcerer is the one with the larger arsenal. His arsenal just doesn't have as much variety. Which begs the question; how many varieties of apples do I really need to make a pie?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Two points that have yet to be raised:

The Sorcerer is only one level behind the Wizard in being able to CAST spells at a specific level, but you only know one spell. It takes two or three more before you have a decent set of options, by which time the Wizard is ahead again.

On the other hand, Paragon Surge.

[Barstro]

On the other hand, Paragon Surge.

I know I'm sort of making the argument that Sorcerer is Tier-1 (really, just trying to understand the difference), but I think Paragon Surge is such a BS/OP thing that I personally refuse to consider it part of the argument.

I'm also not bringing Mythic into this :)

[Bucky]

Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation and that a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.

[Calthropstu]

Sorcerer is easily so close to t1 it's easy enough to consider them borderline.
With tricks available to surpass their limitations (Psychic reformation, binding, feat selection + retrain, PoSK + wealth generation cheese and probably a slew of other tricks I'm not considering) sorcerers can easily break their mold. Similar with Oracles (for the exact same reasons).

But one argument I can see for keeping them t2: T1 classes don't need such tricks. T1 classes are T1 regardless of tricks or optimization.

[Barstro]

The Sorcerer is only one level behind the Wizard in being able to CAST spells at a specific level, but you only know one spell. It takes two or three more before you have a decent set of options, by which time the Wizard is ahead again.

Absolutely. In fact, it's so obvious that I think it was understood by all. However, you are correct to bring it up.

To delve into it further;
The Wizard relying only on Class has a few more options, but (without foreknowledge) might not have the correct spell prepared. A Sorcerer could, at the very least, cast several more lower level spells.

Throwing money at the issue and getting some clairvoyance, the Wizard can now solve any problem with those many extra spells. Could not a Sorcerer be able to do so as well with scrolls, etc?

Maybe part of my issue is that Tier-1 seems to be assuming a fully prepared Wizard. Would that mean that a Wizard who doesn't plan ahead is Tier-2? Cannot a Sorcerer plan ahead as well (even if not quite so well)?

[Calthropstu]

Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation and that a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.

Or that a wizard will have more than one of memorized, and half of which are likely not even in his spell book.

[Zanos]

If we're bringing magic items into this, may I present, for the enterprising spontaneous wizard:

Amulet of Magecraft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-magecraft/)
Spectacles of Annihilation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-annihilation/)

[Barstro]

a sorcerer is unlikely to know more than one of.
I don't think that generalizations like that are a basis of good argument. But, that's only my opinion.


Air Bubble, Comprehend Languages, Detect Metal, Disguise Self, Keep Watch, Mount, Touch of the Sea, Unseen Servant. All first level spells that can solve a situation
If those are first-level spells, then the Sorcerer can very easily and cheaply have PoSK for each. Thank you for a list of things I will have my Sorcerer pick up.

[Segev]

Referring to phantom conjuration and its kin, and answering a question of how far they go to combat a sorcerer's lack of versatility:

Not very. You're using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells.

Remember that the sorcerer has more spell slots at those higher levels than does a wizard, so he could devote a number of them equal to the difference and still "keep up" in that regard.

Where this still comes to bite them is that the Sorcerer is giving up a higher-level spell known to achieve this versatility with lower-level spells. Which cuts quite a bit more sharply, because the place he's already non-versatile is costing him other of-level options for versatility to achieve below-level options at greater versatility.

[Calthropstu]

Absolutely. In fact, it's so obvious that I think it was understood by all. However, you are correct to bring it up.

To delve into it further;
The Wizard relying only on Class has a few more options, but (without foreknowledge) might not have the correct spell prepared. A Sorcerer could, at the very least, cast several more lower level spells.

Throwing money at the issue and getting some clairvoyance, the Wizard can now solve any problem with those many extra spells. Could not a Sorcerer be able to do so as well with scrolls, etc?

Maybe part of my issue is that Tier-1 seems to be assuming a fully prepared Wizard. Would that mean that a Wizard who doesn't plan ahead is Tier-2? Cannot a Sorcerer plan ahead as well (even if not quite so well)?

I believe the argument is actually assuming a wizard can leave a spell slot open, come upon a problem, open his spell book, memorize the spell he needs in 10 minutes, solve the problem and keep going.
Which doesn't exactly help when the situation calls for immediate action.

[Barstro]

But one argument I can see for keeping them t2: T1 classes don't need such tricks. T1 classes are T1 regardless of tricks or optimization.
I don't consider "tricks" to be worth an argument. As I stated, Paragon Surge takes care of all of this, but it's (IMO) cheese and shouldn't be allowed.

However, Wizards need tricks too (with a lowercase "t", instead of the Sorcerer's need for capital "T" Tricks (cheese)). A Wizard is only as good as what he prepares that day. He cannot improvise unless he has enough time and an open slot.

[Epic Legand]

Paragon surge is banned at many tables, as is much 3ed party content. Psyic Reformat is honestly broken for psyics, retooling it for arcane is much worse with their 10X larger pool of spells to pick from.
T1 is listed as game smashing power and ability to solve tons of problems T2 is similar power with fewer options. Clearly the Sorc is T2. Can the Sorc use up his money, feats, and class features to gain some of what the wizard starts of with? Yes....Meanwhile, the wizard gets all those things, and can further custonise or enhance themselves.

[Barstro]

If we're bringing magic items into this, may I present, for the enterprising spontaneous wizard:

Amulet of Magecraft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-magecraft/)
Spectacles of Annihilation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-annihilation/)

Wow! Not even a 24 hour requirement. We may have found the new cheese.

Edit: On second look, it does still require the Wizard to pick a specific school in the morning. Pretty darn good, but not quite as game-breaking.

[Gnaeus]

Referring to phantom conjuration and its kin, and answering a question of how far they go to combat a sorcerer's lack of versatility:


Remember that the sorcerer has more spell slots at those higher levels than does a wizard, so he could devote a number of them equal to the difference and still "keep up" in that regard.

Where this still comes to bite them is that the Sorcerer is giving up a higher-level spell known to achieve this versatility with lower-level spells. Which cuts quite a bit more sharply, because the place he's already non-versatile is costing him other of-level options for versatility to achieve below-level options at greater versatility.

Maybe. I like summons for sorcerers, so my 7th level slot could be a Celestial Roc, Shedu, Movanic Deva, 3-6 bralani eladrins, 2-4 Kirin or a dozen or so other options. My biggest problem is trying to process all the different spells and spell likes on hand to pick the most useful ones. It's a very different problem than this lack of versatility people talk of.

[Bucky]

If those are first-level spells, then the Sorcerer can very easily and cheaply have PoSK for each. Thank you for a list of things I will have my Sorcerer pick up.

Wizard: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up a scroll each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea so I can prepare them for the dives."

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up eight scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in two dives."

Druid: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a shark. I can prepare castings of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea for our next dive."

[Segev]

Or that a wizard will have more than one of memorized, and half of which are likely not even in his spell book.He's more likely to have the one he needs in his spellbook than the Sorcerer is to know it, and the Wizard also often will have scrolls of such incidental spells. Plus, there's the "leave a slot open" trick.

But the more important point is that, where the wizard might not have it prepared today, unless it was a time-limited need, he can have it tomorrow, and still solve the problem then.


If we're bringing magic items into this, may I present, for the enterprising spontaneous wizard:

Amulet of Magecraft (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-magecraft/)
Spectacles of Annihilation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spectacles-annihilation/)

The Amulet is particularly nice. Pity it only works if you're a "bonded object" wizard. I wonder if a variant could be made that allowed your familiar to provide a similar service...

(The bonded object wizard already has 1/day spontaneous spellcasting from his spellbook, which is nice, too.)

[Barstro]

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up eight scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in two dives."
Or; "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'll craft PoSK Air Bubble, and Touch of the Sea for 1,000 gp. I'll sell them for the same when we are done."

No argument on the Druid, though.

[Calthropstu]

On a side note, I am currently replaying baldurs gate 2, and my sorcerer main char is IMMENSELY more usable than my wizard. Let's be honest here, how many of those spells in your wizard's spellbook do you actually use regularly?
My sorc builds tend to have 1 attack spell, 2 utility spells, 1 buff spell at each spell lvl. It's almost never useless, and I always have access to these spells.

But your wizard has memorized spells to be widely applicable. The biggest advantage of the sorc over the wiz is the fact they can repeatedly throw the same spell over and over. Let's tak a low level solution spell at 5th level.

We have a 1,000 sheer rock cliff in front of us that climbing would likely result in the deaths of the party.

Who is better in this situation? The wizard who has memorized levitate or the sorcerer who chose levitate? The wizard, even putting his 3rd level slot as levitate, won't have enough castings.

And honestly, never will the entire length of his career. Unless a wizard has the knowledge of what will be needed beforehand, a sorcerer trumps the wizard BECAUSE of the fact he chooses spells rather than memorize.

In combat, I will take a sorcerer over a wizard any day of the week.

[Segev]

Or; "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'll craft PoSK Air Bubble, and Touch of the Sea for 1,000 gp. I'll sell them for the same when we are done."

No argument on the Druid, though.

Indeed. It is worth noting that a sorcerer can absolutely craft any Page of Spell Knowledge he could potentially use, just by adding 5 to the base DC of crafting the item (because he doesn't know the requisite spell).

Actually, if you can assume half-price sales are reliable enough, he could maintain a "sorcerer's spellbook" of Pages of Spell Knowledge, crafting the specific ones for purpose-built adventuring and selling off others to pay for new materials. It'd just be a number of days equal to the spell level squared to craft each new one.

[Tuvarkz]

1) Wizards get lots of spells, but they still have to pay for them. Sure, it's less than Sorcerers for stuff, but knowledge of all spells is not inherent in the class (unlike, say, Cleric).

2) This is where my main question comes up (What makes Sorcerer Tier-2 instead of Tier-1); Books full of spells enable Wizards to prepare any spell required at a moment's notice. A Sorcerer is not so lucky.

2a) Again, a Sorcerer can have spent all sorts of money to obtain every PoSK, thus getting rid of that argument. I consider this a very questionable counter-argument and discount it greatly.

2b) A Sorcerer has his whole arsenal available right away. A Wizard had better know what is coming up, have coincidentally prepared for what he didn't know, or find the time to prepare a spell. He'd better not hope to do this in the middle of combat.

2b(2)) What length of time keeps thing "Tier-1"? With enough time (which isn't all that much), a Sorcerer can find somebody with the correct PoSK and use his fine charisma to rent it for a while.

The arguments above also depend on "Solve a Problem". A Wizard of sufficient level can, with enough time and money to obtain full spellbooks, solve any problem. Realistically, what number of spells are necessary for someone to be able to solve every problem if with a bit more difficulty than said rich Wizard?

To disagree with Peat;
A Sorcerer is the one with the larger arsenal. His arsenal just doesn't have as much variety. Which begs the question; how many varieties of apples do I really need to make a pie?

1) Except that the amount paid is significatively less so, and after getting a blessed book the wizard still keeps the scroll that he bought with the spell, effectively making a 0-cost operation to get new spells, or half that if you want to get rid of the scrolls for some reason.

2a) And that would be extremely expensive. A 9th-level spell PoSK is a big 81k gp, versus 3825 gp for a 9th-level spell scroll, which you can still use (And the wizard can still keep the scroll and use it for its WBL, or re-sell it for half the price). I don't think you can realistically have a passable budget left after getting them all PoSKs until 20th level, while the wizard can do it at a significatively faster and cheaper pace.

2b) Psychic Asylum is a bit expensive in terms of spell slot expenditure, but it does the trick (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Psychic%20Asylum). Also, again, Spellbinder and Exploiter wizards can do this as a full round action (the lesser to a weaker degree since only a limited amount of spells can be readied that way). Also, you are underestimating the fact that a wizard always starts his day with divinations for these purposes.

2b(2)) Skill use doesn't define a tier, particularly because a wizard can spend a trait for Clever Wordplay for Intelligence to Diplomacy, and has the skill ranks to keep it maxed. And why rent it? The wizard can divine the guy in a moment, ready the proper spells to completely shut the guy down, or kill him, or mind control him into getting the PoSK permanently, and give it to the sorcerer.

Also, bringing up the Sin Magic Specialist (Also known as Thassilonian Wizard), mr Wizard can still have the bigger amount of spells per day and get them sooner. And because scrolls are cheaper, thus easier to get, the Wizard can get his complete spellbooks quite faster than the sorcerer does.

And if you want to make the very best apple pie? Of course you'll get the exact best apples for the job. And get them twice if one of the two pies get made wrong. And a chef to make the pies for you.

Also, you seem to not know that Paragon Surge was nerfed to the ground. You make a feat choice the first time you cast the spell each day, and each time you recast it you get the exact same feat, with the exact same choices.

EDIT: Also, Calthropsu, I'll take the Wizard with Spider Climb (or better, the communal version) in his spellbook to prepare. With communal spider climb, he gives everyone in the team at least 10 minutes of spider climbing (aka they have 100 rounds to move up the wall, do it in a quarter that) and still has his full allotment of second level spells plus a third level spell to continue his job.

[Elderand]

On a side note, I am currently replaying baldurs gate 2, and my sorcerer main char is IMMENSELY more usable than my wizard. Let's be honest here, how many of those spells in your wizard's spellbook do you actually use regularly?
My sorc builds tend to have 1 attack spell, 2 utility spells, 1 buff spell at each spell lvl. It's almost never useless, and I always have access to these spells.

But your wizard has memorized spells to be widely applicable. The biggest advantage of the sorc over the wiz is the fact they can repeatedly throw the same spell over and over. Let's tak a low level solution spell at 5th level.

We have a 1,000 sheer rock cliff in front of us that climbing would likely result in the deaths of the party.

Who is better in this situation? The wizard who has memorized levitate or the sorcerer who chose levitate? The wizard, even putting his 3rd level slot as levitate, won't have enough castings.

And honestly, never will the entire length of his career. Unless a wizard has the knowledge of what will be needed beforehand, a sorcerer trumps the wizard BECAUSE of the fact he chooses spells rather than memorize.

In combat, I will take a sorcerer over a wizard any day of the week.

I have highlighted the key words here; You're playing a CRPG, sorcerers are vastly more powerful in that specfic environment because 99% of the time were spellcasting happen is combat situation with little to no way to deal with the environment at large in creative way that spells tend to be good at.
But that's not an accurate reflection of pen and paper campaigns in general.

[Gnaeus]

Wizard: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up a scroll each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea so I can prepare them for the dives."

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up eight scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in two dives."

Druid: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a shark. I can prepare castings of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea for our next dive."

Sorcerer: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a dragon or monstrous humanoid with an extended Polymorph line spell that I know because it's useful in a wide variety of situations and way better than being a shark. When that runs out I'll just use my greater hat of disguise which I crafted for myself because 6kgp for a non enhancement dex or str buff that also gives a movement buff, natural attacks, and superior senses 24/7 is a steal. Didn't I offer to craft them for you too?"

[Segev]

1) Except that the amount paid is significatively less so, and after getting a blessed book the wizard still keeps the scroll that he bought with the spell, effectively making a 0-cost operation to get new spells, or half that if you want to get rid of the scrolls for some reason.Wait, where does it say that you can keep the scroll?

[Calthropstu]

I have highlighted the key words here; You're playing a CRPG, sorcerers are vastly more powerful in that specfic environment because 99% of the time were spellcasting happen is combat situation with little to no way to deal with the environment at large in creative way that spells tend to be good at.
But that's not an accurate reflection of pen and paper campaigns in general.

Which is fair, but it still is relevant and the argument valid. We can argue it into the ground, but ulimately sorcerers do have some advantages over wizards, especially when it comes to generic combat, and points where the same spell has to be cast over and over again.

[Calthropstu]

Wait, where does it say that you can keep the scroll?

It doesn't. The spell is always used in transcribing from a scroll.

What you CAN do, however, is copy from another wizard's spellbook at greatly reduced cost.

[Tuvarkz]

Wait, where does it say that you can keep the scroll?

*Checks up*
Huh, I was wrong on this part. Still, it remains that getting a scroll and scribing it over is still done at less than 5% of the cost a sorcerer will do while getting the appropriate PoSK.

[Calthropstu]

*Checks up*
Huh, I was wrong on this part. Still, it remains that getting a scroll and scribing it over is still done at less than 5% of the cost a sorcerer will do while getting the appropriate PoSK.

Unless he crafts the PoSK, then sells it when it is no longer needed... reducing the cost to zero.

Not really viable for higher level spells though due to crafting time. A 9th lvl spell would take 3 months base. A little long to wait for prep time.

edit: Though, if we are talking about prep time and consider time altered planes, it could be feasible...

[Psyren]

1) Wizards get lots of spells, but they still have to pay for them. Sure, it's less than Sorcerers for stuff, but knowledge of all spells is not inherent in the class (unlike, say, Cleric).

All spells, no, but the free spells they get each level are more than enough to handle the must-haves. I had assumed this thread was focused more on the differences between the two classes, which would come down to situational solutions like Planar Adaptation, Break Enchantment, Tongues or Ant Haul - spells that you'll be very glad to have when they are needed, but that would in most other circumstances be a waste of time for a sorcerer to learn, especially right at the level they first become available.



2) This is where my main question comes up (What makes Sorcerer Tier-2 instead of Tier-1); Books full of spells enable Wizards to prepare any spell required at a moment's notice. A Sorcerer is not so lucky.

2a) Again, a Sorcerer can have spent all sorts of money to obtain every PoSK, thus getting rid of that argument. I consider this a very questionable counter-argument and discount it greatly.

2b) A Sorcerer has his whole arsenal available right away. A Wizard had better know what is coming up, have coincidentally prepared for what he didn't know, or find the time to prepare a spell. He'd better not hope to do this in the middle of combat.

2b(2)) What length of time keeps thing "Tier-1"? With enough time (which isn't all that much), a Sorcerer can find somebody with the correct PoSK and use his fine charisma to rent it for a while.

First, I'd say both classes are screwed if {insert-spell-they-need-but-don't-currently-have-access-to} ends up being needed mid-combat. After all, Sorcerers more or less have to "prepare" too - it's just that their preparation takes place while leveling up or shopping, because those are the times when they have to stop and consider what they might need going forward, and they are far more locked into their choices than the wizard. Meanwhile, all a Wizard really needs is 15 minutes, and since scrolls are so much cheaper than pages, they have a lot more leeway to make niche purchases like the ones I listed above.

Second is a question of plausibility. Scrolls are simply more common - as mentioned they are cheaper, so they can show up in more villages/shops. They also have more potential to drop as treasure than pages do - while there are several categories explicitly for scrolls, (D,G,H,I), getting a page first requires you to be fighting/looting something with a wondrous item category, and within that hoping they have a wondrous item specific to spontaneous spellcasters, and within that hoping you get a PoSK instead of something else like a headband of charisma. Scrolls, in addition to showing up more easily due to their cost, can also plausibly be carried by both prepared and spontaneous casters, and even by noncasting enemies like rogues. And while you can make the same arguments about a Pearl of Power, those at least aren't specific to individual spells.

TL;DR - I think expecting Page of Spell Knowledge - especially all the specific PoSKs you need to cover for gaps in your repertoire - to be available at a moment's notice is unrealistic. And if they are not, then the Wizard has the leg up in variety and versatility that justifies a tier bump.

[Segev]

Unless he crafts the PoSK, then sells it when it is no longer needed... reducing the cost to zero.

Not really viable for higher level spells though.

Yeah, 16 days for a single extra spell known is the maximum where it likely stays viable. And that's questionable.

Beyond that, you're busy for a month at least on just ONE spell.

And that's assuming selling "when you're done" is an option. Or that there is a "when you're done." I mean, the wizard gets the spell and preps it every 2 or 4 adventures. The sorcerer has to sell it and then make a new one if he's keeping his cost "0" for it, and thus is taking a LOT of time just to swap out his spells known between adventures.

[Gnaeus]

My sorc builds tend to have 1 attack spell, 2 utility spells, 1 buff spell at each spell lvl. It's almost never useless, and I always have access to these spells.
.

What 'cha got there is one of them T2 3.5 sorcerers, son. You need to upgrade to the Pathfinder model. This baby packs 1 attack spell, 2 utility spells, 1 buff spell, a summons to fill multiple niches, a polymorph or shadow X line to fill multiple niches, and a downtime spell like shrink item, contingency, contact higher plane or planar binding to use up any unused spell slots before bed every night.


All spells, no, but the free spells they get each level are more than enough to handle the must-haves. I had assumed this thread was focused more on the differences between the two classes, which would come down to situational solutions like Planar Adaptation, Break Enchantment, Tongues or Ant Haul - spells that you'll be very glad to have when they are needed, but that would in most other circumstances be a waste of time for a sorcerer to learn, especially right at the level they first become available.

First, I'd say both classes are screwed if {insert-spell-they-need-but-don't-currently-have-access-to} ends up being needed mid-combat. After all, Sorcerers more or less have to "prepare" too - it's just that their preparation takes place while leveling up or shopping, because those are the times when they have to stop and consider what they might need going forward, and they are far more locked into their choices than the wizard. Meanwhile, all a Wizard really needs is 15 minutes, and since scrolls are so much cheaper than pages, they have a lot more leeway to make niche purchases like the ones I listed above..

That is true. That is a complete waste of time for a sorcerer. My angels cast those spells for me so I don't have to. I guess a wizard would be screwed if he needed one of those on the fly. All of my spell slots can be summon monster if I need them to, so I just need a round.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, 16 days for a single extra spell known is the maximum where it likely stays viable. And that's questionable.

Beyond that, you're busy for a month at least on just ONE spell.

And that's assuming selling "when you're done" is an option. Or that there is a "when you're done." I mean, the wizard gets the spell and preps it every 2 or 4 adventures. The sorcerer has to sell it and then make a new one if he's keeping his cost "0" for it, and thus is taking a LOT of time just to swap out his spells known between adventures.

Heh, new argument:

Sell it then convince the party rogue to steal it back :D

[Bucky]

PoSK crafting does appear to be viable for 1st level spells only, starting at about 6th level due to WBL concerns. It appears to become viable for 2nd level spells at about 9th level and 3rd+ level spells only during long periods of downtime.

Similarly, Sorcerers can use flexible higher level spells to cover what the wizard's doing with his first level utility slots, starting at about 8th level.

However, the lake dive itself, assuming only minor combat, is a 3rd-4th level scenario.

[Psyren]

That is true. That is a complete waste of time for a sorcerer. My angels cast those spells for me so I don't have to. I guess a wizard would be screwed if he needed one of those on the fly. All of my spell slots can be summon monster if I need them to, so I just need a round.

(1) What angels is your sorcerer summoning at level 5?
(2) Tongues specifically lasts for 500 rounds when the wizard first gets it, which summon are you using to match that?
(3) Any response to the non-bolded ones?

[Felyndiira]

Wizard: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up a scroll each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea so I can prepare them for the dives."

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up eight scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in two dives."

Druid: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a shark. I can prepare castings of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea for our next dive."

But we're talking about casters, so there is more than one way to solve the problem.

Revised Sorcerer: "I'll grab a page of spell knowledge for Locate Object. Then I'll polymorph myself and cast locate object, then beeline straight for the artifact."

Revised Sorcerer 2: "I just want to check with you guys and make sure you approve before I go ahead and simulacrum a efreet and wish it up."

[Gnaeus]

(1) What angels is your sorcerer summoning at level 5?
(2) Tongues specifically lasts for 500 rounds when the wizard first gets it, which summon are you using to match that?
(3) Any response to the non-bolded ones?

1. Lyrakien Azata. Truespeach, which is technically level 6. But level 4 is the pseudodragon, which can communicate telepathically with any creature
2. "I come in peace" today is way better than "please take me out of this stewpot" tomorrow assuming you can spit the carrots out of your mouth to say it.
3. There are a tiny set of cases where you have spells I won't get. And in many cases you will only get them if you go back to town. My ability to cast the 7 most useful spells half a dozen times if I need them more than once is good every single day.

[Psyren]

1. Lyrakien Azata. Truespeach, which is technically level 6. But level 4 is the pseudodragon, which can communicate telepathically with any creature
2. "I come in peace" today is way better than "please take me out of this stewpot" tomorrow assuming you can spit the carrots out of your mouth to say it.
3. There are a tiny set of cases where you have spells I won't get. And in many cases you will only get them if you go back to town. My ability to cast the 7 most useful spells half a dozen times if I need them more than once is good every single day.

(1) Which summon spell gives you those two? I checked Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster/) and came up empty.

(2) Your Diplomacy check to avoid that stewpot still takes longer than your summon lasts, so no. Also, wizards don't have to wait until tomorrow, empty slots exist.

(3) "Tiny?" At any given spell level the sorcerer list contains dozens of spells, of which you get one when you attain that level. Not only does the Wizard get double what you get (for free), he can scribe even more, and is half a level ahead besides.

[Gnaeus]

(1) Which summon spell gives you those two? I checked Summon Monster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster/) and came up empty.

(2) Your Diplomacy check to avoid that stewpot still takes longer than your summon lasts, so no. Also, wizards don't have to wait until tomorrow, empty slots exist.

(3) "Tiny?" At any given spell level the sorcerer list contains dozens of spells, of which you get one when you attain that level. Not only does the Wizard get double what you get (for free), he can scribe even more, and is half a level ahead besides.

Summon good monster gives it to you. Well in hand by 5. An evil sorcerer does have to wait til 6 for the cacodaemon. (Neutrals use Arbiters)

This path also lets me do other things you can't. Summon Neutral Monster, for example, also gives speak with animals, speak with dead, and shrink item by level 6. And of course, a Wizard could take the summon line and memorize multiple summons per level per day, but then they are just being less flexible sorcerers.

Oh dear. I guess I have to cast it twice. At 5 rounds each. Shame you can't. Also, while neither one is likely to be a diplomacy monster, at least the sorc doesn't have charisma as a dump stat.

It's not like you are likely to have tongues at level 5 either. Your 2 free spells won't likely include tongues. I on the other hand am incredibly likely to want to take summons and expand my range.

[Psyren]

Summon good monster gives it to you. Well in hand by 5. An evil sorcerer does have to wait til 6 for the cacodaemon. (Neutrals use Arbiters)

Oh dear. I guess I have to cast it twice. At 5 rounds each. Shame you can't. Also, while neither one is likely to be a diplomacy monster, at least the sorc doesn't have charisma as a dump stat.

It's not like you are likely to have tongues at level 5 either. Your 2 free spells won't likely include tongues. I on the other hand am incredibly likely to want to take summons and expand my range.

1) So now you're down a feat too just to badly do something the wizard does easily. (Well, you're down three if you count the Wizard's two bonuses, but who's counting.) Never mind that the wizard can do this AND use Tongues if he wants. T1 is variety of nukes, remember?

2) Clever Wordplay, yawn. Or Student of Philosophy, Bruising Intellect etc. Also, no you can't recast it - "continuous interaction" remember?

3) Which means I'm out, oh dear, a whole 375 gold at 5th level. My poor mortgage!

[Gnaeus]

1) So now you're down a feat too just to badly do something the wizard does easily. (Well, you're down three if you count the Wizard's two bonuses, but who's counting.) Never mind that the wizard can do this AND use Tongues if he wants. T1 is variety of nukes, remember?

2) Clever Wordplay, yawn. Or Student of Philosophy, Bruising Intellect etc. Also, no you can't recast it - "continuous interaction" remember?

3) Which means I'm out, oh dear, a whole 375 gold at 5th level. My poor mortgage!

I'm taking 3 feats that I would have taken anyway to beat the wizard in daily versatility. How do you speak with animals or dead? How do you convert your victims into devil currency? maybe you know spider climb. Can you turn your 2 empty level 3 slots into spider climb for 6 PCs for an hour? Wizards and sorcerers optimize differently. I turn my level 2 and 3 spells known into dozens of spells known, which continue to be spells known multipliers throughout my career.

You are out 375 for one circumstance. IF you took it. IF you have the spell memorized or can take the time prep it. I'm out 3 feats for an ever expanding list of spells many of which aren't even on the shared list. Spells which are at my fingertips every moment of every day without preparation. Some of which are way above level. I can surround my base with permanent images (a level 6 spell) at level 8. How do you plan to do that?

[Psyren]

I'm taking 3 feats that I would have taken anyway to beat the wizard in daily versatility. How do you speak with animals or dead? How do you convert your victims into devil currency? Wizards and sorcerers optimize differently. I turn my level 2 and 3 spells known into dozens of spells known, which continue to be spells known multipliers throughout my career.

You are out 375 for one circumstance. IF you took it. IF you have the spell memorized or can take the time prep it. I'm out 3 feats for an ever expanding list of spells many of which aren't even on the shared list. Spells which are at my fingertips every moment of every day without preparation. Some of which are way above level. I can surround my base with permanent images (a level 6 spell) at level 8. How do you plan to do that?

First the specific example: you still haven't addressed the fact that it's inferior because you can't recast it mid-conversation. So not only can the Wizard do the same thing as you, he can do it better by having access to more ways to pull it off, ways that work in more situations than your one. That is the essence the divide between T1 and T2 - it's not that you can't do it, it's that you only have one or a couple of ways to do it (in this case, "summon something to do it for me.") And if anything at all interferes with your one tactic, you lose a great deal of power in that situation, but the T1 class shrugs and goes to plans B, C, D and E; perhaps waiting 15 minutes to do so, or perhaps being forearmed through divinations and thus ready to deal with it pronto.

As for taking the time to prep it - like you, the Wizard can have the things he expects to get mileage out of each day ready to go (like summons.) But then open slots are there to cover the situations that aren't, while the sorcerer has no recourse save PoSK, consumables and retraining - all three of which are available to the Wizard too (well, Pearls in place of that first one, but you get the idea.) Hence why I say yes, Wizards are T1 and Sorcerers are T2. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just the way things are.

And a less important note - as I demonstrated with the traits above, it's trivial to move charisma skills to intelligence, but not so much the reverse. Thus Int is typically more valuable than Cha, just as it was in 3.5.

[Coretron03]

In a core only enviroment a sorcerer is likely tier 2. No human FCB, no paragon surge, no pages of spell knowledge and no false priest archtypes. Wizards, on the other hand have their bonded item, a once a day "solve alot of problems" ace, almost equivalent spells per day (assuming bonded item and specialisation) at level 1 they get 3, equvlent to sorcerers. By 4 the sorcerer has 1 more level 1 spell per day. All levels beyond that sorcerers have one more spell per day on the level below their highest, not that significant. Wizards get 2 spells a level free and have a easier access to new ones from scrolls and blessed books. Wizards get more versitile bonus feats then sorcerers and more of them. In core, Wizards have a clear advantage and sorcerers are sort of lacking.

Outside of core, sorcerers gain alot. They gain 1-20 more spells known from FCB, paragon surge lets them use donwtime spells like divinations and let them solve a problem once a day in 2 rounds and get pages of spell knowledge. Sorcerers might breach tier one for the sheer amount of spells know they get over 3.5 sorcerers, because (assuming arcane bloodline) they can have 32 more spells known across their levels, a huge sum of versatility. Abyssal bloodline sorcerers can summon 3 of the highest level options from summon monster, something (to my knowledge without eldritch heritage) can't do. However, wizards are still plenty powerful. I have a wizard build somewhere that walks around with his entourage of 14th and 16th level clerics and 18th level wizards entirely from class features. They can negate a opposed school with a feat. Wizards have versatility in spades and they can do pretty much anything. Sorcerers might be the best tier 2 class if they stay in tier 2. They might break into tier 1. Which side wins out will probably depend on the amount of optmization used but I think sorcerers have a good chance.

I don't really consider paragon surge as chesse anyway (post errata at least) it just a strong and versatile option.

[Sayt]

Personally, I think Sorcerers and Oracles are T2 because they canot completely respecify their payload every day. A cleric or wizard can.


Or; "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'll craft PoSK Air Bubble, and Touch of the Sea for 1,000 gp. I'll sell them for the same when we are done."

No argument on the Druid, though.
A page of spell knowledge costs (x^2)*1000 to craft, and you need the feat. And takes x^2 days.

Writing a spell in your book costs ((x^2)*10)*1.5 on the open market and takes x hours. (x being spell level)

Spell effects like Summon Monster being equal amongst those who can cast them, Sorcerer's access to a broad range of spells is much weaker, being slower and more expensive (although the sorcerer does have access to all his spells at once, which the wizard doesn't.)

My main quotation is: ideas the difference between Tiers 1 and 2 actually meaningful away from boards?

[Erik the Green]

[QUOTE=Sayt;21809323]Personally, I think Sorcerers and Oracles are T2 because they canot completely respecify their payload every day. A cleric or wizard can.

Thought experiment, just to keep the argument going: Take a human PF sorcerer, who grabbed the FC bonus with both hands. Let's say they can meditate and do weird gesture exercises for an hour before going to sleep. In the morning during their 15 minutes of spell preparation they can change any of their spells, up to all of them (except bloodline spells, just to respect the heritage). With that, plus the standard class features, is the Sorcerer then a T1?

How about if they can change 1 spell per level that they know/can cast by that method, each and every day?

[Eldariel]

Not very. You're using higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells.

That depends on what you replicate and how disbelief works. Replicating e.g. Contingency, Phantom Steed or Greater Mage Armor is far less of a hassle than trying to use them offensively.


If we allow 3rd party content, sorcerers are T1 with a simple trick of grabbing an item capable of manifesting psychic reformation.

Also, you guys have odd and even reversed. Sorcerers are better on even levels, 1st level, 19th level and 20th. So let's take a look:
Yes, there are ways, via spells, to completely obliterate wbl really late game. Most games end before reaching that point, but let's go level by level.

Lvl 1: Sorcerer is a clear winner. A wizard barely has enough spells to be useful for a single combat.

Wizard with 20 Int has 4 unique spells. Sorcerer only has 2 no matter what, though castable 5 times a day. I'd take my 4 Wizard-spells and Scribe Scroll for cheap starter Scrolls over Sorc any day. Sorc can only do one-two things while a Wizard can access like Charm Person, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Grease all in the span of a single day without using Scrolls (and he can keep Scrolls of e.g. Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, etc.). On this level, the encounter enders are rather specialized - your Color Spray is pretty useless in a social encounter or against mindless things or whatever, while Sleep offers even more immunities and Grease doesn't completely destroy people (but is certainly the most generally applicable). Thus it pays to have an array for different encounters.


Lvl 2: Same as lvl 1. A wizard has just enough now to be useful in 2 combats if spells are stretched.

Same as above. You forget the extra versatility a Wizard's mechanics afford him. Also, a single combat spell is generally enough for a single combat; you can just Daze or pling away with a Crossbow/Longbow much of the time and be contributing.


Lvl 3: Here is where the argument begins. Wizard gets lvl 2 spells first. The sorcerer still has more spells per day, and is still able to stretch himself for more encounters, but the 2nd level spells that can be used make the one combat they are used in a much bigger deal.

No, it's not even close. 2nd level spells >>> 1st level spells and Wizard has a more varied setup to hit different encounters at any rate. Sorcerer is good vs. some things but if there's a variety of encounters, he's SOL. Also, Wizard gets bonus spells from two levels so he's probably ahead in spells per day too. 20 Int Conjurer 3 has 8 spells per day while a Sorcerer 3 has 7. On this level, Sorcerer is completely and thoroughly eclipsed: Wizard has 8 unique spells including 3 spells of a higher power level (Web/Pyrotechnics/Invisibility/etc.) while Sorcerer has 4 unique spells (3 plus the Bloodline spell) castable 7 times per day.

Hell, it's a huge investment for a level 3 Sorcerer to even know Mage Armor! Wizard can just burn one of the 8 slots and be fine. He can also afford to prepare Charm Person and still go through 6 combat encounters a day with the combination of equipment, cantrips and about a spell per encounter. I've been doing just that in PF with no trouble. One spell is generally sufficient outside boss battles or unlucky rolls and frankly, you'll very rarely find 6 encounters you need to cast in anyways.


Low levels are a non-contest. Wizard absolutely destroys Sorcerer until items become a thing, and always on odd levels. Sorcerer begins to catch up once he begins being able to add Favored Class bonus spells to his repertoire and so on, but far as the highest level spells go he's always catching up.

[Gnaeus]

First the specific example: you still haven't addressed the fact that it's inferior because you can't recast it mid-conversation. So not only can the Wizard do the same thing as you, he can do it better by having access to more ways to pull it off, ways that work in more situations than your one. That is the essence the divide between T1 and T2 - it's not that you can't do it, it's that you only have one or a couple of ways to do it (in this case, "summon something to do it for me.") And if anything at all interferes with your one tactic, you lose a great deal of power in that situation, but the T1 class shrugs and goes to plans B, C, D and E; perhaps waiting 15 minutes to do so, or perhaps being forearmed through divinations and thus ready to deal with it pronto.

As for taking the time to prep it - like you, the Wizard can have the things he expects to get mileage out of each day ready to go (like summons.) But then open slots are there to cover the situations that aren't, while the sorcerer has no recourse save PoSK, consumables and retraining - all three of which are available to the Wizard too (well, Pearls in place of that first one, but you get the idea.) Hence why I say yes, Wizards are T1 and Sorcerers are T2. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just the way things are.

And a less important note - as I demonstrated with the traits above, it's trivial to move charisma skills to intelligence, but not so much the reverse. Thus Int is typically more valuable than Cha, just as it was in 3.5.

I didn't address it because it's meaningless. Not only would I disagree with what you interpret uninterrupted conversation to mean, there's a lot of situations where the message you really want to convey is "please Mr. Treant stop hitting me. We come in peace chasing the orcs with axes. If you could point where they went we can leave your forest." Which you can't say when you are beaten unconscious before you can take 15 minutes to prep tongues. Your trick isn't better. It's just different. The sorcerer can buy a scroll of tongues for the one time he needs to negotiate a treaty and rely on pseudodragons if he just needs to buy some black lotus or get directions to the tower of Set.

If you maintain multiple open slots, which you probably should, you are slightly increasing your strategic flexibility (you have potential access to all your spells) at a cost to your tactical flexibility (you can no longer use all your high level slots in this close battle). For that matter, my PF group hasn't had a full adventuring day that lasted 15 minutes in the last year of playtime. So go ahead and take a study break, the rest of us have timers running on spells and we'll just clear the next 4 rooms while you pick the 5% better solution to this one. Or of course, there's our most recent adventure, where we lost a fight and got stripped. Our 2 spontaneous casters were all "how inconvenient" and our Magus (we play at around T3) is jacked up, panicking, telling us we have to stick around the ass end of nowhere doing whatever we have to do to get his spellbook back!

And no, the wizard can't do the same thing as me. He can't say "each of my slots, from 3-7, aside from being these other 6 spells, is a summon. Therefore it is to my benefit to make each summon a portable caster with 4-10 other spells". He could take the feats, yeah. But he gets less mileage from them than the sorc does.

Beguilers and Necros expand lists. It's how they optimize. Sorcs expand spells known or spell versatility. Wizards buy a ton of scrolls and hope they have the right one picked or time to prepare. They have different advantages, but as we can tell from the way you didn't address my points you can't precisely duplicate my tricks at same level any more precisely than I can yours.

And yes. Of course wizards have all taken the traits to be social butterflies instead of the ones that give free metamagic or + initiative. We all know that's true.

[Coretron03]

I didn't address it because it's meaningless. Not only would I disagree with what you interpret uninterrupted conversation to mean, there's a lot of situations where the message you really want to convey is "please Mr. Treant stop hitting me. We come in peace chasing the orcs with axes. If you could point where they went we can leave your forest." Which you can't say when you are beaten unconscious before you can take 15 minutes to prep tongues. Your trick isn't better. It's just different. The sorcerer can buy a scroll of tongues for the one time he needs to negotiate a treaty and rely on pseudodragons if he just needs to buy some black lotus or get directions to the tower of Set.

If you maintain multiple open slots, which you probably should, you are slightly increasing your strategic flexibility (you have potential access to all your spells) at a cost to your tactical flexibility (you can no longer use all your high level slots in this close battle). For that matter, my PF group hasn't had a full adventuring day that lasted 15 minutes in the last year of playtime. So go ahead and take a study break, the rest of us have timers running on spells and we'll just clear the next 4 rooms while you pick the 5% better solution to this one.

And no, the wizard can't do the same thing as me. He can't say "each of my slots, from 3-7, aside from being these other 6 spells, is a summon. Therefore it is to my benefit to make each summon a portable caster with 4-10 other spells". He could take the feats, yeah. But he gets less mileage from them than the sorc does.

Beguilers and Necros expand lists. It's how they optimize. Sorcs expand spells known or spell versatility. Wizards buy a ton of scrolls and hope they have the right one picked or time to prepare. They have different advantages, but as we can tell from the way you didn't address my points you can't precisely duplicate my tricks at same level any more precisely than I can yours.

And yes. Of course wizards have all taken the traits to be social butterflies instead of the ones that give free metamagic or + initiative. We all know that's true.

What exactly are you arguing? Are you trying to prove sorcerers are better then wizards? More versatile? Better in actual play? Anyway, your arguements are someone lacking, especially "sorcerer has a scroll of tongues and wizards doesn't because they don't have scribe scroll as a bonus feat or anything". Plus, getting int to UMD is pretty huge to any degree because its a great skill. Plus, the free metamagic traits depend on your build. Their the best for blasters. I also don't think its fair to dismiss the anility to prepare a new spell in 15 minutes, especially when tou can get it down to 1 minute with a feat or a full round action with a archetype. Just because your experince doesn't line up with it doesn't mean its useless.

Anyway, i'll ask you something. Want to pick a focus and a level that you think sorcerers can do better then wizards and make a sorcerer focused that? And i'll try to make a wizard that covers it better? Wizards can do pretty much anything, which is why they deserve tier 1. Sorcerers are still more limited, which is why theirs arguement about whether or not they hit tier 1. Interested if you like to or not.

[Pugwampy]

Strongest hero player i ever had the misfortune to encounter who pretty much steamrolled me most of my DM hosted 19 sessions.

A Gnome Sorceress of silver dragon bloodline.

The player was an Ex DM , A tactician , did his homework and spent hours looking over other rule book options and wrestled me for Never Winter Nights missile storm spell .
This blaster master was perfectly suited to my preferred playstyle.

As much as i am a fan of wizards and probably never play a sorcerer , I think Sorcerers are stronger and less dependent , not to mention all those funny extra bloodline feats.They are easy to use .
They can outlast wizards in those rare 20 plus rounds combat encounters . You want blaster caster ? Wizard is a pistol but a sorcerer is a machine gun . My club labels them as magic missile machine guns


If there is something I know , your hero is only half as good without magic goodies .
Sorcerer can spend their gold on magic goodies instead of more spells .
Wizard is only as good as the spells he can find and DM is not obligated to help out so in theory wizards needs to spend all his cash on more spells instead of goodies .

As for access to high level spells well Sorcerer closes that gap at higher levels and when gap is closed he can do it two or three times more . A sorcerer should not be able to cast the highest level spells in the game but they do in time . And finally to add insult to the injury if you are say a Dragon blood sorcerer , you will be doing that in dragon form . I find that beyond unfair . 9th level spells should be restricted to wizard class only

Of course this is all very situational .
Experienced player or not . If DM only does classic dungeon crawling with average amount of monsters per room and rounds 6 or less . Lots of scrolls dropped and libraries to loot and its a low level game the wizard becomes king .

[Gnaeus]

What exactly are you arguing? Are you trying to prove sorcerers are better then wizards? More versatile? Better in actual play? Anyway, your arguements are someone lacking, especially "sorcerer has a scroll of tongues and wizards doesn't because they don't have scribe scroll as a bonus feat or anything". Plus, getting int to UMD is pretty huge to any degree because its a great skill. Plus, the free metamagic traits depend on your build. Their the best for blasters. I also don't think its fair to dismiss the anility to prepare a new spell in 15 minutes, especially when tou can get it down to 1 minute with a feat or a full round action with a archetype. Just because your experince doesn't line up with it doesn't mean its useless.

Anyway, i'll ask you something. Want to pick a focus and a level that you think sorcerers can do better then wizards and make a sorcerer focused that? And i'll try to make a wizard that covers it better? Wizards can do pretty much anything, which is why they deserve tier 1. Sorcerers are still more limited, which is why theirs arguement about whether or not they hit tier 1. Interested if you like to or not.

My argument was that the functional difference between sorcerer and wizard in Pathfinder is vanishingly small. Like, significantly less than the difference in power between the PF Wizard and Druid. They have few tricks that the other can't duplicate. The spell advantage that wizard gets, almost by definition, only applies in situations where the 7 most broken spells of a given level can't get you where you are going. And while I concede that can happen, I don't concede that those corner cases, which must be either pre-prepped or given 15 minutes notice, assuming that you know the spell to begin with, significantly outweigh the casual ability to toss off the most relevant spell 3 rounds in a row. Heck, in 15 minutes I can planar bind and that cheese walks anywhere. Yes, you can spend resources to reduce that. And I can spend resources to add additional spells or amplify current spells. And then, when all else is done, Paragon Surge is still a thing, even post errata.

The scroll thing was just because he conceded that he would need to buy a scroll of tongues to scribe it. I think it's more handy to have summons at will for communication and a scroll of tongues if you really need it, than to scribe tongues and have it sitting in your book because you aren't likely to prepare it, and then need to put it in an empty slot. Yes, wiz can then scribe a scroll of tongues. But then he's paid 1.5 times the cost the sorc did to have the same resource (a scroll of tongues) + the ability to make more scrolls of tongues. Which is ok but not falling out of my seat awesome. And if we both DO use our scroll of tongues, the sorcerer buys another one (Scroll cost x2) and the wizard makes another one (scroll cost + scribe cost x2) and we are even. You really need to use tongues at least 3 times for the wiz to have a clear advantage from your scribe scroll feat there. And I just don't see it being used that often. And your costs are frontloaded, so when we had the least WBL to play with.

I agree, Int to UMD is also better for most people than Int to diplomacy. I dispute that typical wizard will be equal or better than a typical sorcerer in a skill based social encounter.

[Barstro]

Personally, I think Sorcerers and Oracles are T2 because they canot completely respecify their payload every day.
I question if completely respecifying a payload every day is really required. If, of the 500 spells available, only 50 are needed, then that's not much of an argument. But, if it's more like 75-100, then the argument starts to gain traction. Sure, a Wizard can be prepared for 100% of the problems with great specificity, but how bad is a Sorcerer who is prepared for 75% and can cast on the fly enough to bump it to 80%? (rhetorical)

The other side of this is that if there are problems A, B, C, and D, and Wizard who doesn't know the upcoming problems, he's only 25% likely to have the correct spell package while the Sorcerer is still 75-80% efficient.

But I feel like I'm getting sidetracked. I still feel that Sorcerers are probably Tier-2. It's just my thought that with PoSK, they have access to so many more spells that NOW they bast burst through that crystal ceiling.


A page of spell knowledge costs (x^2)*1000 to craft, and you need the feat. And takes x^2 days.
(x^2)*1,000/2 cost to craft (and can sell when done or rent it out to people)
(x*2)/4 days with a Valet Familiar and increasing the difficulty.

[Barstro]

Hell, it's a huge investment for a level 3 Sorcerer to even know Mage Armor!

The investment is 1,000 gp. That's not much.

[Barstro]

There has been some great discussion here. Let's back it up to a question that I probably should have asked from the beginning.

Just to keep everyone on the same page...
At what level does a Wizard become Tier-1?

For sake of discussing the Sorcerer, we'll discuss him at one level higher. Again, we are not looking at "Are Wizards Better than Sorcerers", we are looking at "What could potentially make a Sorcerer Tier-1". That is an independent statement, not a study of comparative economics.

Is a Sorcerer of that level with ALL the Pages of Spell Knowledge a Tier-1?

If so, how many spells can be stripped away before he falls?

[Psyren]

I didn't address it because it's meaningless. Not only would I disagree with what you interpret uninterrupted conversation to mean, there's a lot of situations where the message you really want to convey is "please Mr. Treant stop hitting me. We come in peace chasing the orcs with axes. If you could point where they went we can leave your forest." Which you can't say when you are beaten unconscious before you can take 15 minutes to prep tongues. Your trick isn't better. It's just different. The sorcerer can buy a scroll of tongues for the one time he needs to negotiate a treaty and rely on pseudodragons if he just needs to buy some black lotus or get directions to the tower of Set.

Which is why the Wizard also has Summon Monster prepped, because as you've noted it's a very versatile spell. But when you walk into the negotiating room and find out that it's been dimensionally locked, you're screwed. Again, variety of nukes is what makes a T1.



For that matter, my PF group hasn't had a full adventuring day that lasted 15 minutes in the last year of playtime.

Wow, that's pretty on-the-nose don't you think? :smallbiggrin:



And no, the wizard can't do the same thing as me. He can't say "each of my slots, from 3-7, aside from being these other 6 spells, is a summon. Therefore it is to my benefit to make each summon a portable caster with 4-10 other spells". He could take the feats, yeah. But he gets less mileage from them than the sorc does.

Except the Wizard can do that. And also have contingency plans for when "summon something" is a bust.



And yes. Of course wizards have all taken the traits to be social butterflies instead of the ones that give free metamagic or + initiative. We all know that's true.
...
I agree, Int to UMD is also better for most people than Int to diplomacy. I dispute that typical wizard will be equal or better than a typical sorcerer in a skill based social encounter.

Extra Traits exists too; the Wizard has feats to spare. Now, I'd only do this if my party's face didn't bother with any languages himself, but that's an easy enough need to determine ahead of time.



Is a Sorcerer of that level with ALL the Pages of Spell Knowledge a Tier-1?

If so, how many spells can be stripped away before he falls?

The problem is that having ALL the pages would require breaking WBL. At which point you can get a Commoner to T1 too.

Assuming you stay within WBL though, I'd put them at T2 still then, so that would be the lower bound.

[Segev]

Thought experiment, just to keep the argument going: Take a human PF sorcerer, who grabbed the FC bonus with both hands. Let's say they can meditate and do weird gesture exercises for an hour before going to sleep. In the morning during their 15 minutes of spell preparation they can change any of their spells, up to all of them (except bloodline spells, just to respect the heritage). With that, plus the standard class features, is the Sorcerer then a T1? Godlings, yes, they're T1 then. They're better than wizards in almost every way at that point, with only the level-lag and maybe a couple of specialist tricks denied them. It's not the specialist tricks that make wizards T1.


How about if they can change 1 spell per level that they know/can cast by that method, each and every day?
More arguable here, at least. Still likely, since they could reshape their list for any adventure with just a few days plus their travel time.


Is a Sorcerer of that level with ALL the Pages of Spell Knowledge a Tier-1?

If so, how many spells can be stripped away before he falls?

Actually, this raises a question about the Wizard, too: How many spells does he need to spend gp putting in his spellbook before he's really living up to being Tier 1?

Is a wizard who never spends gp on his spellbook Tier 1?

Clearly, a wizard who knows fewer than "all of the spells" can be Tier 1. But what's the cut-off? How many spells known does he need? Is this number different than the same answer for the sorcerer? (Note: the sorcerer pays much more for the same number of spells known, but his versatility on a round-by-round basis might make up for this at some point.)

[Firest Kathon]

Thought experiment, just to keep the argument going: Take a human PF sorcerer, who grabbed the FC bonus with both hands. Let's say they can meditate and do weird gesture exercises for an hour before going to sleep. In the morning during their 15 minutes of spell preparation they can change any of their spells, up to all of them (except bloodline spells, just to respect the heritage). With that, plus the standard class features, is the Sorcerer then a T1?

How about if they can change 1 spell per level that they know/can cast by that method, each and every day?
So ... basically an Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/) with Spell Improvisation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/arcane-exploits/spell-improvisation-su/)?

[Gnaeus]

Which is why the Wizard also has Summon Monster prepped, because as you've noted it's a very versatile spell. But when you walk into the negotiating room and find out that it's been dimensionally locked, you're screwed. Again, variety of nukes is what makes a T1.

Wow, that's pretty on-the-nose don't you think? :smallbiggrin:



Except the Wizard can do that. And also have contingency plans for when "summon something" is a bust.

Extra Traits exists too; the Wizard has feats to spare. Now, I'd only do this if my party's face didn't bother with any languages himself, but that's an easy enough need to determine ahead of time.


So you have summon monster prepped. So what? Maybe you used it in the last fight. It's at least as likely as any scenario where you have 15 minutes to prep a spell or "you suddenly walk into a dimensionally locked negotiating room but you don't share a language with the negotiators." That's A the biggest corner case I've ever heard and B a great reason to just keep the scroll of tongues instead of writing it into a book, because that's not gonna occur twice.

No, I think that's the way 3.pf works. Dungeons get cleared SWAT style with prep and runs. Any fight that isn't in a dungeon is unlikely to wait 15 minutes to occur.

Well, first tell me what trick you are using to spontaneously convert to multiple different summon spells. Because I'm using the same resources you are spending to be a knockoff sorcerer to add versatility and become a knockoff wizard. Because once you've spent a couple feats on your spont trick, and then 3 feats on the summon good monster line, I've also got the summon alignment monster line, and, I dunno, craft wondrous item and dazing spell, and when all is said and done were still going to be centimeters away.

Yes, you could take extra trait and burn a feat to equal a sorcerer in social encounters. It's not a super good use of a feat, or anything that reflects most wizards in play. But yes, it's a thing.

[Bucky]

I think that, even after all the talk of Pages, the best argument for a tier 1 Sorcerer build is still the ability to 'prepare' a single spell each day with Paragon Surge.

And, incidentally, that Gnaeus needs to play with more Druids.

[Psyren]

The whole point of T1 is being able to handle corner cases better than a T2 can. Variety of nukes.

I'm not spontaneously doing anything, I just happen to have multiple summon spells like you do. (I mean, I certainly could, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-lucubration/) but I'm not.) While also having the capacity to do things when your sole strategy of "summon something" fails.

And since I'm 3 feats ahead of you as discussed prior, dropping one of them on extra traits isn't a big deal, assuming I even needed to.

While we're on the subject though, which traits are you using to get Cha to knowledge skills? Does your Sorcerer even know that half the things you want to summon exist?

[Lirya]

Is the wizard still Tier 1 if he must buy a scroll in order to learn a new spell (apart from the free ones he gains by leveling up). How large a percentage of his wealth should such a wizard spend on learning new spells (as opposed to headband/belt/cloak/handy haversack/other permanent items), and how much should he spend on creating his own scrolls?

If you calculate this you can compare the numbers with a sorcerer and see if it is close enough to also qualify. And if the wizard doesn't qualify as Tier 1 in such an environment, then is the wizard really Tier 1?

[Gnaeus]

I think that, even after all the talk of Pages, the best argument for a tier 1 Sorcerer build is still the ability to 'prepare' a single spell each day with Paragon Surge.

And, incidentally, that Gnaeus needs to play with more Druids.

I love Druid. I just don't think that when you nerf animal companion, summon natures ally and wild Shape, what you emerge with is still T1. I've got a solid Dzilla built for my backup if my character in my new game dies. He's a combat beast with good utility. But I don't think he would hit T2, let alone T1. Caster specced Druids I think are still T2 IMO.

In the voting thread, Druid did get voted T1, but below Witch, as the lowest T1 so far.

[Psyren]

Is the wizard still Tier 1 if he must buy a scroll in order to learn a new spell (apart from the free ones he gains by leveling up). How large a percentage of his wealth should such a wizard spend on learning new spells (as opposed to headband/belt/cloak/handy haversack/other permanent items), and how much should he spend on creating his own scrolls?

If you calculate this you can compare the numbers with a sorcerer and see if it is close enough to also qualify. And if the wizard doesn't qualify as Tier 1 in such an environment, then is the wizard really Tier 1?

Wizards do have WBL for exactly that. It's not like they're running around buying a +5 sword or bow, so they can allocate a chunk of that budget to scrolls. The sorcerer does not, however scrolls are both far cheaper and far more likely to be generated by random treasure tables, than umpteen PoSK.

[Bucky]

If you calculate this you can compare the numbers with a sorcerer and see if it is close enough to also qualify. And if the wizard doesn't qualify as Tier 1 in such an environment, then is the wizard really Tier 1?

Let's use as reference a wizard who takes his two spells per level and also buys out one level appropriate preconstructed spellbook (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spellbooks/) every four levels. Does this seem fair?

[Gnaeus]

The whole point of T1 is being able to handle corner cases better than a T2 can. Variety of nukes.

I'm not spontaneously doing anything, I just happen to have multiple summon spells like you do. (I mean, I certainly could, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mage-s-lucubration/) but I'm not.) While also having the capacity to do things when your sole strategy of "summon something" fails.

And since I'm 3 feats ahead of you as discussed prior, dropping one of them on extra traits isn't a big deal, assuming I even needed to.

I thought we had already agreed that "nukes" is a terrible way to Tier.

If you can't spont summon, you shouldn't spend feats on expanding and strengthening summons. If you didn't spend those feats, your summons can't do what mine do, so you aren't copying my trick.

If you have 50 spells in your spellbook, that need dimensionally locked negotiating rooms or the like to be good, then you are better in.... let's see 1 in a million x 50 =50/1,000,000=1/20,000 games? So I'm pretty close to you in 19,999/20,000. + the games where repeating a spell helps me? That seems fair.

[Eldariel]

The investment is 1,000 gp. That's not much.

What? Level 3 Wealth By Level is 3000gp. That's a whole third of all the items you can have.

[Gnaeus]

Wizards do have WBL for exactly that. It's not like they're running around buying a +5 sword or bow, so they can allocate a chunk of that budget to scrolls. The sorcerer does not, however scrolls are both far cheaper and far more likely to be generated by random treasure tables, than umpteen PoSK.

I can't remember who it was, but the last time this argument ran, someone had done the numbers on how many scrolls will pop up on average. It came out to a handful each 1-3, like 1 4-5, less than one total between 6-9. It's not impressive for the wizard regardless, or a stable source of scrolls over level 3. Then there's overlap, and the spells that are so useless you won't bother to scribe them.

[Lirya]

Let's use as reference a wizard who takes his two spells per level and also buys out one level appropriate preconstructed spellbook every five levels. Does this seem fair?

I think forcing the wizard to buy scrolls would favor the sorcerer (who would also buy scrolls to help with his versatility), and I also think the wizard should still qualify as Tier 1 in such a scenario if he wants to qualify as Tier 1 as it is a failure of versatility to not be able to function without borrowing/buying spellbooks from other wizards.

[Psyren]

I thought we had already agreed that "nukes" is a terrible way to Tier.

Nah, we agreed on no such thing. I'm using "nuke" as shorthand for "outright solution to problem" anyway.



If you can't spont summon, you shouldn't spend feats on expanding and strengthening summons.

Again, why not? Do summons stop being useful when prepared? This is silly.



If you have 50 spells in your spellbook, that need dimensionally locked negotiating rooms or the like to be good, then you are better in.... let's see 1 in a million x 50 =50/1,000,000=1/20,000 games? So I'm pretty close to you in 19,999/20,000. + the games where repeating a spell helps me? That seems fair.

Wizards can't repeat spells? :smallconfused:


I can't remember who it was, but the last time this argument ran, someone had done the numbers on how many scrolls will pop up on average. It came out to a handful each 1-3, like 1 4-5, less than one total between 6-9. It's not impressive for the wizard regardless, or a stable source of scrolls over level 3. Then there's overlap, and the spells that are so useless you won't bother to scribe them.

However compelling "some forum guy said" is, did they also crunch the numbers on the specific Page of Spell Knowledge you need showing up?

Also, you can trade scrolls. Or retrain and scribe. Or bind things to craft with you.

Also, is there a Cha to Knowledge trait out there somewhere?

[Gnaeus]

Nah, we agreed on no such thing. I'm using "nuke" as shorthand for "outright solution to problem" anyway.

Again, why not? Do summons stop being useful when prepared? This is silly.



Wizards can't repeat spells? :smallconfused:



However compelling "some forum guy said" is, did they also crunch the numbers on the specific Page of Spell Knowledge you need showing up?

Also, you can trade scrolls. Or retrain and scribe. Or bind things to craft with you.

Also, is there a Cha to Knowledge trait out there somewhere?

Ok. You just go on pretending nuking a campaign more than once matters at all. The rest of us can discuss play. And I demonstrated several things the sorc could do with summons that you can't match without a feat line that's junk for wizards. You have the choice of duplicating my trick worse than I do it, or not at all, or explain how you are generating the versatility of stealing wildly off the cleric list with a bunch of outleveled spells.

Yes, you could prep spells several times. I welcome it. Every time you do, you lose ground to the sorcerers who can use every spell of a level to cast something, or use them all to cast something else in a moment notice.

I don't need to. I haven't mentioned pages of spell knowledge once. It's just gravy. You, however, need to rely on the assistance of the DM. The random scroll charts don't help you the way you say.

Who cares. I have plenty of good places to spend my skill points. Once I have enough ranks knowledge planes to beat you down at planar binding it no longer matters.

[Calthropstu]

That depends on what you replicate and how disbelief works. Replicating e.g. Contingency, Phantom Steed or Greater Mage Armor is far less of a hassle than trying to use them offensively.



Wizard with 20 Int has 4 unique spells. Sorcerer only has 2 no matter what, though castable 5 times a day. I'd take my 4 Wizard-spells and Scribe Scroll for cheap starter Scrolls over Sorc any day. Sorc can only do one-two things while a Wizard can access like Charm Person, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Grease all in the span of a single day without using Scrolls (and he can keep Scrolls of e.g. Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, etc.). On this level, the encounter enders are rather specialized - your Color Spray is pretty useless in a social encounter or against mindless things or whatever, while Sleep offers even more immunities and Grease doesn't completely destroy people (but is certainly the most generally applicable). Thus it pays to have an array for different encounters.



Same as above. You forget the extra versatility a Wizard's mechanics afford him. Also, a single combat spell is generally enough for a single combat; you can just Daze or pling away with a Crossbow/Longbow much of the time and be contributing.



No, it's not even close. 2nd level spells >>> 1st level spells and Wizard has a more varied setup to hit different encounters at any rate. Sorcerer is good vs. some things but if there's a variety of encounters, he's SOL. Also, Wizard gets bonus spells from two levels so he's probably ahead in spells per day too. 20 Int Conjurer 3 has 8 spells per day while a Sorcerer 3 has 7. On this level, Sorcerer is completely and thoroughly eclipsed: Wizard has 8 unique spells including 3 spells of a higher power level (Web/Pyrotechnics/Invisibility/etc.) while Sorcerer has 4 unique spells (3 plus the Bloodline spell) castable 7 times per day.

Hell, it's a huge investment for a level 3 Sorcerer to even know Mage Armor! Wizard can just burn one of the 8 slots and be fine. He can also afford to prepare Charm Person and still go through 6 combat encounters a day with the combination of equipment, cantrips and about a spell per encounter. I've been doing just that in PF with no trouble. One spell is generally sufficient outside boss battles or unlucky rolls and frankly, you'll very rarely find 6 encounters you need to cast in anyways.


Low levels are a non-contest. Wizard absolutely destroys Sorcerer until items become a thing, and always on odd levels. Sorcerer begins to catch up once he begins being able to add Favored Class bonus spells to his repertoire and so on, but far as the highest level spells go he's always catching up.

Having watched NUMEROUS pfs wizard builds, I am calling pure and total bull****.

EPIC bull****. You are forgetting a HUGE problem, especially at first level:
No gold. No scrolls, no magical ink, no spells.
Also, VERY few characters actually start with that 20 int. Point buying an 18 is obscenely expensive, and requires ridiculous dual dumps to be viable which most people refuse to take, and rolling an 18 is rare (or should be... I have had a very suspicious number of 18s crop up in my recent groups.)
Ordinarily, that "4 spells per day" is actually 3, and one of those must be the school slot.
So you have 1 spell that will be the same every day, and 2 spells which you can choose between... 2 spells.
By 2nd level, you will have added maybe 4-6 spells to your book, and your memorizations are almost invariably ending up with 1 useless spell per day.
I have seen it 100 times: wizards are virtually useless. Oh, and the whole 2 school drop thing? It hurts you a lot more than you think. But I digress.
Wizards are **** at low levels. Useless ****. They memorize 1 color spray, 1 charm person, and then something ridiculous like animate rope or something because school spell. So 4 combat encounters, they knock out one or two guys with a color spray in the first combat and then sit back throwing darts the rest of the day.
Sorcerers take charm person, friends, or some other utility spell and maybe color spray, sleep or burning hands or summon monster 1 for combat.

So combat 1: Cast. Combat 2: cast. Combat 3: cast. Combat 4: cast. And on other rounds they have nifty abilities such as elemental rays or draining touch.
Hand of the apprentice is kinda cool at this lvl, but you're dropping a (probably useless) spell for it.
Low level sorcerers trump low level wizards so hard it's not even funny.

[Psyren]

Ok. You just go on pretending nuking a campaign more than once matters at all. The rest of us can discuss play. And I demonstrated several things the sorc could do with summons that you can't match without a feat line that's junk for wizards. You have the choice of duplicating my trick worse than I do it, or not at all, or explain how you are generating the versatility of stealing wildly off the cleric list with a bunch of outleveled spells.

Yes, you could prep spells several times. I welcome it. Every time you do, you lose ground to the sorcerers who can use every spell of a level to cast something, or use them all to cast something else in a moment notice.

I don't need to. I haven't mentioned pages of spell knowledge once. It's just gravy. You, however, need to rely on the assistance of the DM. The random scroll charts don't help you the way you say.

Who cares. I have plenty of good places to spend my skill points. Once I have enough ranks knowledge planes to beat you down at planar binding it no longer matters.

In your hypothetical universe where scrolls don't exist, the Wizard would do exactly what your Sorcerer is forced to do to even approach T1 variety, and optimize the most versatile line of spells it can. In PF that would be summons, which he would also select as his free spells from leveling with plenty left over for other things (again, unlike the sorcerer, at least until later.) So your repeated assertions that wizards would ignore a logical feat chain in those circumstances make no sense. But I find "scrolls don't exist" to be, to use your own language, "the biggest corner case I've ever heard of."

Of course, even with the DM being stingy like that, you haven't responded to simply identifying an extraplanar assistant who has what you need via Knowledge, Planar Binding it, and just scribing your own, but whatever.

I fail to see how the wizard "loses ground" - For starters, for most of the game they're a spell level ahead of you; second, they can scribe their own scrolls of things they need repeatedly, and third, Pearls exist. Which, unlike PoSK, you don't need specific ones.

And lastly, a Sorcerer will never beat a Wizard at identifying outsiders, like ever.

[Eldariel]

Having watched NUMEROUS pfs wizard builds, I am calling pure and total bull****.
No gold. No scrolls, no magical ink, no spells.
Also, VERY few characters actually start with that 20 int. Point buying an 18 is obscenely expensive, and requires ridiculous dual dumps to be viable which most people refuse to take, and rolling an 18 is rare (or should be... I have had a very suspicious number of 18s crop up in my recent groups.)
Ordinarily, that "4 spells per day" is actually 3, and one of those must be the school slot.
So you have 1 spell that will be the same every day, and 2 spells which you can choose between... 2 spells.
By 2nd level, you will have added maybe 4-6 spells to your book, and your memorizations are almost invariably ending up with 1 useless spell per day.
I have seen it 100 times: wizards are virtually useless. Oh, and the whole 2 school drop thing? It hurts you a lot more than you think. But I digress.
Wizards are **** at low levels. Useless ****. They memorize 1 color spray, 1 charm person, and then something ridiculous like animate rope or something because school spell. So 4 combat encounters, they knock out one or two guys with a color spray in the first combat and then sit back throwing darts the rest of the day.
Sorcerers take charm person, friends, or some other utility spell and maybe color spray, sleep or burning hands or summon monster 1 for combat.

So combat 1: Cast. Combat 2: cast. Combat 3: cast. Combat 4: cast. And on other rounds they have nifty abilities such as elemental rays or draining touch.
Hand of the apprentice is kinda cool at this lvl, but you're dropping a (probably useless) spell for it.
Low level sorcerers trump low level wizards so hard it's not even funny.

Just the fact that you've never seen a single decently played Wizard (because most PFS players don't optimize and the level of challenge on the adventure paths reflects that...) on those levels doesn't mean they're bad. And I'm seriously calling your experience into question if you've never gone through the trouble of playing one yourself - you'd know better if you'd seen both sides of the coin. It sounds clear the players you've been partied with don't know how to make the most out of a Wizard's abilities on those levels - not surprising, this is PFS and many people jump in knowing diddly squat and few come in with real mastery (this is reflected in the number of Wizards you see played - to a newbie, the class is one of the less attractive ones). It happens to be one of the more skill intensive classes specifically due to the preparation and the fact that you should learn spells known.

I've played PFS Conjurer (Elf, 20 Int, the usual) past those levels. First of all: Wizard starts the game with 3+Int 1st level spells (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/):
"Starting Spells (See Spellbooks below): A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook."

So I choose from 8 first level spells, giving them some variety. The obvious ones are Color Spray/Sleep/Grease/Enlarge Person/Silent Image/Ray of Enfeeblement /Protection from Evil/Mage Armor - the rest is to taste. 7/16/12/20/11/7 Elf with Evocation and Necromancy as banned schools. Could dump Wis over Cha just as well - makes little difference; or depends on what else you'd like to be doing. Grease just so happens to be a Conjuration and a spell you're always happy to have. Same applies to Enlarge Person and Transmutation (unless you get an [b]extremely aberrant party with no martial types, in which case you'd best do something different). Diviner loses out on this, granted, but they make up for that in school abilities - True Strike/Heightened Awareness/See Alignment are at least somewhat useful. Seriously, if you've seen all those Wizards fail to contribute, those guys haven't known what they're doing; on level 1 first and foremost you need that bloody extra bonus spell from 20 Int. You simply shouldn't play without it if you can help it (point buy is what it is), because it's foolish. And in PF, you don't lose anything meaningful by specializing. You can downtime cast the off-school spells with two slot investment (mostly Contingency). Obviously I took the Teleportation ACF. It increases my utility manyfold and it ensures I don't have to stick next to undesirables. It also allows moving through choke points, small holes and so on. Plus there's no point in using any of the damaging school abilities when Crossbows and Alchemist's Fires exist. +3 to hit on Crossbow is only +2 behind a warrior-type. You're perfectly fine contributing with those on this level (though Alchemist's Fire is of course still prohibitively expensive). Of course, for the first few levels, Daze-cantrip is also a bigger contribution against humanoids than your average attacks generally.

I've been in parties with Sorcerers spamming their Color Spray and Grease (about the best a Sorc can do). Even in a game model as heavily emphasizing combat and encounters and heavily discouraging preparation and lacking a cohesive plotline (all of which favour Sorcerer - Wizard further benefits of long-term abilities to prepare, adjust and indeed, pick their battles), I've yet to be left wanting in comparison or in general; I can contribute in fights just as well or better, depending on how their typical attack works vs. the enemy type, and I'm prepared for a variety of scenarios while they are generally prepared for 1-2 out of many. I've used all my 4-5-8 slots on each of those levels in some scenarios (e.g. Legacy of the Stonelords was rather spell-intensive, though in part because our derp party triggered a friggin' Large Magma Elemental twice and our only useful characters were myself and a Barbarian), and occasionally some Scrolls, but I've always been able to meaningfully contribute in every meaningful encounter and I've completely saved the party in some. Obviously I prepare spells with the locale, adventure type and probable encounters in mind. Protection from Evil to end possession in a path allowed us to actually solve certain quest: no Sorc would've had the spell prepared. Charm Person has solved countless diplomatic encounters. And the versatility from having access to whichever of Sleep/Color Spray seems better is awesome. I've completely negated some boss fights from very difficult positions thanks to the fact that Sleep has Medium range. On the other hand, in close quarters (dungeon crawls), Color Spray is largely superior. This also favours Pearls of Power. In the event that neither Sleep nor Color Spray is good (vs. high Will-save/Mindless enemies), I still have Grease and Enlarge Person to fall back on. Enlarge Person on a two-hander can easily be 1d6+1 bonus damage and that's without getting into the awesome that is a reach AoO build character getting a size increase. I've even prepared Silent Image once, in mindless-heavy paths (Undead on this level tend to be pretty dumb).

Let's not forget the advantage of having all Knowledges in class, massive Int and great many skill points on these levels. Basically every adventure/encounter/thing ever benefits of Knowledge-tests and having like +9 in all Knowledges (5 Int + 1 Rank + 3 Class-skill) by level 2 with most covered on level 1 (you need Spellcraft, might want Perception if you Trait it in on these levels, and that's about it) gives you a huge amount of encounter awareness and in general, benefits. Like every PFS scenario features numerous Knowledge-checks which range from a means of orienting to various bonuses, extra options or whatever. And you can roll Knowledge for almost any kind of thing you need to figure out.

[Gnaeus]

And lastly, a Sorcerer will never beat a Wizard at identifying outsiders, like ever.

I don't have to beat you in identifying outsiders. I just have to have enough ranks to justify using the spell. What beats you is the way in which, after I am done adventuring, I can convert all my unused spells over level 4 into bound allies for the next day.

[Segev]

I don't have to beat you in identifying outsiders. I just have to have enough ranks to justify using the spell. What beats you is the way in which, after I am done adventuring, I can convert all my unused spells over level 4 into bound allies for the next day.

Yes and no. You still need magic circles to contain them once called but not yet bound, and it takes 10 minutes per casting PLUS you need to actually get them to agree to serve, which is easier as a sorcerer, but still not guaranteed enough that you can say every 4th or higher spell slot translates to a bound minion.

[Gnaeus]

Yes and no. You still need magic circles to contain them once called but not yet bound, and it takes 10 minutes per casting PLUS you need to actually get them to agree to serve, which is easier as a sorcerer, but still not guaranteed enough that you can say every 4th or higher spell slot translates to a bound minion.

I guess. Magic circle is 10 minutes per level. So maybe I need to cast it twice? 3 times? Once you are camping I can't see time constraints mattering much, though. And whether I get all of them, or just most of them, its enough that I get a lot more than the wizard who merely gets the ones he prepared + any empty slots.

[Psyren]

I don't have to beat you in identifying outsiders. I just have to have enough ranks to justify using the spell. What beats you is the way in which, after I am done adventuring, I can convert all my unused spells over level 4 into bound allies for the next day.

"Ranks" aren't the issue - you have a lower modifier, which means the Wizard is getting their phone numbers far sooner.

Also, the Wizard only needs them to scribe things and he can then do the rest. You need them to actually accompany you into battle - big difference from their perspective since they can actually die, and that's before we get into aforementioned conjuration denial effects being active in the place you want to get to, which is entirely plausible if the bad guy divines your one-trick-pony class.

Again, you have one solution while the wizard has many. It's a strong solution of course, hence T2, but the minute it doesn't work well you're up a creek and the wizard is not. That's all it means. Nobody is saying sorcerers are bad, just less versatile.

[Gnaeus]

Again, you have one solution while the wizard has many. It's a strong solution of course, hence T2, but the minute it doesn't work well you're up a creek and the wizard is not. That's all it means. Nobody is saying sorcerers are bad, just less versatile.

Again I have plenty of tricks you haven't shown any ability to duplicate, and any combination that requires multiple castings of a spell you would only prepare one of is a "trick". We run across a team of low level spellcasters volley firing magic missiles and my level 5 slot that would have been Summon Monster V can just as easily be a quickened shield. What? You didn't have Quickened Shield prepared? Oh, no! I got dispelled! Better cast it again! What, you didn't have 2 Quickened shields prepared? Bunch of big thuddy guys and neither of us has an appropriate level 5? How about Dazing Scorching Ray? Its entirely probable that on any given day I have not just more, but vastly more options than the wizard, between my spells known and their possible permutations with metamagic. Or break them into mini-casters with summons. or turn them into allies at the end of the day.

[Lirya]

Again, you have one solution while the wizard has many. It's a strong solution of course, hence T2, but the minute it doesn't work well you're up a creek and the wizard is not. That's all it means. Nobody is saying sorcerers are bad, just less versatile.

Except between 3.5 and PF the sorcerer almost doubled the number of solutions he has, making the question: How many solutions do you need before you become Tier 1? relevant.

[Segev]

I guess. Magic circle is 10 minutes per level. So maybe I need to cast it twice? 3 times? Once you are camping I can't see time constraints mattering much, though. And whether I get all of them, or just most of them, its enough that I get a lot more than the wizard who merely gets the ones he prepared + any empty slots.

The main concern is that it's 10 min. per casting of planar binding, at a minimum (which ignores the negotiation time), and you do still want to get your 8 hours of rest. So I'd probably expect no more than 1-3 that you'd have time for while getting enough rest without the rest of your party being irked that you're staying up too late and thus sleeping in too late in the morning.

[Psyren]

Again I have plenty of tricks you haven't shown any ability to duplicate, and any combination that requires multiple castings of a spell you would only prepare one of is a "trick". We run across a team of low level spellcasters volley firing magic missiles and my level 5 slot that would have been Summon Monster V can just as easily be a quickened shield. What? You didn't have Quickened Shield prepared? Oh, no! I got dispelled! Better cast it again! What, you didn't have 2 Quickened shields prepared? Bunch of big thuddy guys and neither of us has an appropriate level 5? How about Dazing Scorching Ray? Its entirely probable that on any given day I have not just more, but vastly more options than the wizard, between my spells known and their possible permutations with metamagic. Or break them into mini-casters with summons. or turn them into allies at the end of the day.

Let's put aside the fact that Quickened Shield won't actually help you because you won't get a swift until after they've fired. Let's also put aside the fact that there are many other solutions to this problem (they can't volley me if I have total concealment or total cover etc) that are available below 5th level. Let's assume Quickened Shield is somehow the only solution, in which case I'll point out the obvious fact that Rods exist, and are actually a far better answer than blowing your 5th-level slots on a 1st-level spell. So not only can the wizard do the one solution you've come up with, they have many others too - again, the definition of T1.


Except between 3.5 and PF the sorcerer almost doubled the number of solutions he has, making the question: How many solutions do you need before you become Tier 1? relevant.

Let me take a moment to address this. The Sorcerer's FCB is nice, I agree. But it also only applies below your highest level, so at any given spell level you have 1-2 spells known at the top of your repertoire. The Wizard meanwhile has 2-4, and for the latter, is up one level too, all before scribing.

[Gnaeus]

I'll discuss it further in the tiering thread.

[Zanos]

The main concern is that it's 10 min. per casting of planar binding, at a minimum (which ignores the negotiation time), and you do still want to get your 8 hours of rest. So I'd probably expect no more than 1-3 that you'd have time for while getting enough rest without the rest of your party being irked that you're staying up too late and thus sleeping in too late in the morning.
G1:"We kicked that damn sorcerer out of our party."
G2:"Oh? Why's that?"
G1:"Was up all night and slept in too late."
G2:"What was he doing?"
G1:"Summoning a horde of unstoppable angels to devastate our enemies."
G2:"..."

[Psyren]

G1:"We kicked that damn sorcerer out of our party."
G2:"Oh? Why's that?"
G1:"Was up all night and slept in too late."
G2:"What was he doing?"
G1:"Summoning a horde of unstoppable angels to devastate our enemies."
G2:"..."

But I quite like my BMX...

[Segev]

G1:"We kicked that damn sorcerer out of our party."
G2:"Oh? Why's that?"
G1:"Was up all night and slept in too late."
G2:"What was he doing?"
G1:"Summoning a horde of unstoppable angels to devastate our enemies."
G2:"..."

G1: "I know how that sounds, but consider that we were unable to actually leave on the quest until he was done. Too many other parties beat us to too many dungeons."

Don't assume 15 min. adventuring days are going to be acceptable. Because the world may not wait that extra day for you to get done.

I mean, by the logic intimated in the quote block, the sorcerer should be given every other day to devote all of his spell slots to this.

[Lirya]

Let me take a moment to address this. The Sorcerer's FCB is nice, I agree. But it also only applies below your highest level, so at any given spell level you have 1-2 spells known at the top of your repertoire. The Wizard meanwhile has 2-4, and for the latter, is up one level too, all before scribing.

Getting spells earlier is why the wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer, this can be true even if the classes are on the same tier. The reason stated for the sorcerer being Tier 2 is that they do not know enough spells (this is why Paragon Surge (at least pre nerf)/False Priest sorcerer is agreed upon to be Tier 1, they still get spells later but it is easy to prove they have enough spells known). When editions change from 3.5 -> PF and the sorcerer is granted +29 spells over his career (85% increase in spells known), then asking how many spells known is needed to become Tier 1 needs to be discussed. And since it is generally agreed that the wizard is near the top of Tier 1, being weaker than the wizard is not enough to dismiss the claim that the sorcerer could be Tier 1 now.

It is easy to stick to the old paradigm and say "the sorcerer is tier 2 because he has always been that way", but when circumstances change one should make a genuine attempt to examine this truth to see if it still holds.

[Psyren]

Getting spells earlier is why the wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer, this can be true even if the classes are on the same tier. The reason stated for the sorcerer being Tier 2 is that they do not know enough spells (this is why Paragon Surge (at least pre nerf)/False Priest sorcerer is agreed upon to be Tier 1, they still get spells later but it is easy to prove they have enough spells known). When editions change from 3.5 -> PF and the sorcerer is granted +29 spells over his career (85% increase in spells known), then asking how many spells known is needed to become Tier 1 needs to be discussed. And since it is generally agreed that the wizard is near the top of Tier 1, being weaker than the wizard is not enough to dismiss the claim that the sorcerer could be Tier 1 now.

It is easy to stick to the old paradigm and say "the sorcerer is tier 2 because he has always been that way", but when circumstances change one should make a genuine attempt to examine this truth to see if it still holds.

I agree, and I am doing so. But even with their increased spells known in PF though, there are still many spells I find it hard to believe Sorcerers would take. Even if you de-emphasize all the situational ones, charop staples like Contact Other Plane or Scrying aren't very spammable (and can be highly dangerous besides), and 21 extra spells known become less and less of an advantage when every single new splatbook to see print is giving them more and more they need to learn - something the Wizard can pick up near-effortlessly.

And it's worth pointing out that Gnaeus' argument thus far has not actually been "Sorcerers get a ton more spells now." Rather it has been "Sorcerers get one very versatile spell (chain) that they can spam." That is an argument for T2, not T1.


G1: "I know how that sounds, but consider that we were unable to actually leave on the quest until he was done. Too many other parties beat us to too many dungeons."

Don't assume 15 min. adventuring days are going to be acceptable. Because the world may not wait that extra day for you to get done.

I mean, by the logic intimated in the quote block, the sorcerer should be given every other day to devote all of his spell slots to this.

Not to mention, you're giving the bad guy just as much extra time to bind a pile of fiends or whatever. Or locate the One Ring or something.

[Gnaeus]

And it's worth pointing out that Gnaeus' argument thus far has not actually been "Sorcerers get a ton more spells now." Rather it has been "Sorcerers get one very versatile spell (chain) that they can spam." That is an argument for T2, not T1.



Not gonna argue it here, better just to start the thread. But my answer in PF is really that there is a tipping point where more spells known> spells in spellbook. A 3.5 sorcerer has a hard time picking downtime spells at competitive levels. The PF sorcerer gets 9 bloodline spells, powers and up to 17 spells from favored class is likely enough spells. Yes, maybe there's a page of spell knowledge, a wand or scroll or 2, but when you hit as many spells known as the wizard has on his adventuring, overland and downtime lists (there will be overlap), the marginal trick of swapping out a specific spell is not necessarily better than the ability to use resist energy 6 times if you need to.


My biggest problem is trying to process all the different spells and spell likes on hand to pick the most useful ones. It's a very different problem than this lack of versatility people talk of.


What 'cha got there is one of them T2 3.5 sorcerers, son. You need to upgrade to the Pathfinder model. This baby packs 1 attack spell, 2 utility spells, 1 buff spell, a summons to fill multiple niches, a polymorph or shadow X line to fill multiple niches, and a downtime spell like shrink item, contingency, contact higher plane or planar binding to use up any unused spell slots before bed every night.



My argument was that the functional difference between sorcerer and wizard in Pathfinder is vanishingly small. Like, significantly less than the difference in power between the PF Wizard and Druid. They have few tricks that the other can't duplicate. The spell advantage that wizard gets, almost by definition, only applies in situations where the 7 most broken spells of a given level can't get you where you are going.

Just because you couldn't counter it doesn't mean I didn't make it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Paragon Surge has been mentioned, but there's another thing sorcerers can do that pushes the boundary towards T1.

The 1st level spell Blood Money, coupled with Limited Wish. It's certainly a late-game strategy, but I recently ran a Rise of the Runelords game. Our party had a wizard AND a human sorcerer (taking human favored class bonus every level). The sorcerer was primarily artillery, while the wizard prepped utility, divinations, and various other problem solving spells.

However, once the sorcerer got Limited Wish, he suddenly could pull just about anything out of his hat. They bought a bunch of wands of lesser restoration, and when they needed to, the sorcerer just bled himself for mini-wishes. He didn't do this all the time, mind, but even the wizard would run into situations where he didn't have the right thing prepared. In those cases, if the sorcerer couldn't brute-force it with his spells known, they pulled out the blood-money-wish trick. In the absence of a cleric, they mostly used it to replicate niche healing spells like Restoration.

This is noteworthy, because while a wizard could do the same, it's unlikely they would prep limited wish multiple times, and the sorcerer that knows limited wish can just spam it like the dickens if they've got the blood to spare.

[Lirya]

Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc Sorcerer 10 [arcane bloodline]
Spells Known (CL 10th)
5th- Telekinesis
4th- Dimension Door, Enervation, Resilient Sphere, Scrying, Summon Monster IV
3rd- Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Haste, Fly, Shrink Item, Fireball
2nd- Invisibility, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Detect Thoughts, Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind
1st- Identify, Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Charm Person, Silent Image, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile

(14 925 gp worth of scrolls)
5th level Scrolls: Polymorph, Sending, Teleport, Wall of Stone
4th level Scrolls: Dimensional Anchor x2, Elemental Body I x2, Greater Invisibility, Illusory Wall, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Secure Shelter, Stone Shape
3rd level Scrolls: Arcane Sight, Daylight, Heroism, Invisibility Sphere, Magic Circle against Evil, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Water Breathing, Wind Wall

47 075 gp of other stuff. Probably spending another 1 500 gp on 1st-2nd level scrolls.

Feel free to discuss why this core spell list (using human FCB) is Tier 2, and why the Wizard/Witch/Cleric/Druid is significantly more versatile. Also, for the wizard/witch state how much wealth you spend on extra spells known/scribing scrolls, as my experience is that even with a best case scenario that adds up to a surprisingly large expense and stating your assumptions is one of the keys to having a constructive debate.

I don't doubt that the wizard is Tier 1 while the sorcerer is still Tier 2, and the wizard is certainly more powerful than the sorcerer. I just haven't seen any convincing arguments for it in this thread.

[Coretron03]

Lirya, in all due respect your arguement is biased. You picked the bloodline that gives extra spells known, only let the sorcerer use something from non core (human faboured class bonus) while the wizard has to be core and made it a odd level, ignoring one of the sorcerers downsides. Your wizard has bought a scroll of elemental body 1 for god knows why when he has polymorph. Why does he even have polymorph? He also had the need to buy and scribe 8 3rd level scrolls. Apparently our wizard can't use a summon monster spell above 3 Unfair much? Do you expect me to prove your handpicked spell list is tier 1? Don't you think its just a little unfair thst you think you can pick both your sides spell list and your enemies? I might make a better spell list if your ok with that.

[Lirya]

I built no wizard, that is a sorcerer who bought some scrolls to increase his options for when his spells known are not enough. Yes, an even level with a human arcane bloodline is the most versatile and powerful you will get compared to wizard without using Paragon Surge/False Priest, but I really think using the human FCB should be considered standard, and arcane bloodline is certainly the vanilla sorcerer bloodline in PF.

As for why have scrolls of both Polymorph and Elemental Body I. Polymorph is higher level and more expensive, but can be cast on your party members. If you need earthglide or something similar to solve that one problem in one adventure, then Elemental Body I is cheaper but less versatile solution. Not that I put a lot of thought into the scrolls the sorcerer got, I just created a budget for how much I would spend on scrolls and extra spells on a wizard and used it to buy scrolls for the sorcerer instead. Then I just picked stuff at random that wasn't on his spell list and seemed fun.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think people are forgetting that this isn't about the wizard being better than the sorcerer (or the other way around).
Either class is perfectly capable of playing in the big leagues, with sometimes different approaches but on more-or-less equal footing.
The question is "is the sorcerer T2, and if so why?".

Imo the only thing that keeps a sorcerer at tier 2 is the fact that items aren't generally included in that assessment. It's all about "native to the class" power/versatility.

Otherwise, considering items like Mnemonic Vestments, Pages of Spell Knowledge and the fact that staves are rechargable by default pushes the sorcerer easily into T1.
At the same time things like the Spectacles of Annihilation, Amulet of Magecraft, Fast Study, rechargable staves and Staff-like Wand make a wizard far more able to adapt on the fly.

There are of course still differences, but i wouldn't say that one of them is better than the other if both are build to the same standard. They just have different playstyles and purchase priorities.

[Rerednaw]

Wow long and passionate thread. I play and like both. But that doesn't change the definition of tier 1. We can argue about that too granted...

Do you need a trick to get to tier 1? Okay welcome to Tier 2.
Do you spend X to get to tier 1 when the other class can either already do it innately or do it for less? Okay, Tier 2.
Do you typically gain something AFTER the other class you are comparing it to? Another argument for Tier 2.
Do you gain less of something (feats, spells) as part of the base class compared to the other? Okay another check for Tier 2.

I don't deny that we can create custom cases where one class outshines the other...but baseline abilities the wizard has the deluxe swiss army knife and the sorcerer has the one with less tools...and get fewer tools added, and added later, as time goes on.

[slachance6]

Also if Mythic is involved, sorcerers get a huge boost compared to wizards, since Wild Arcana basically negates the main weakness of playing a spontaneous caster. But that's a totally different discussion.

[RedMage125]

I saw the title of this thread and for a moment was filled with dread...

DO YOU KNOW WHAT DRACONIC HORROR YOU ARE INVITING?

:smallwink:

That said, I must agree that the sorcerer remains in Tier 2, by definition of JaronK's Tier system. This does not speak ill of sorcerers, nor does it say that individual sorc builds could not beat individual wizard builds.

By the Tier system definition, a T2 class can do anything a T1 class can, but no individual build of a T2 class can do ALL of the things a T1 class can. T2 barely qualifies as it's own tier, in that respect. But the sheer, overwhelming power of what a T1 class can do is SO overwhelming, that even a class that can do ANY of it (while completely unable to do ALL of it) merits its own tier.

Basically, there's a narrower gap between T1 and T2 than between any other tiers (including between T2 and T3).


Also if Mythic is involved, sorcerers get a huge boost compared to wizards, since Wild Arcana basically negates the main weakness of playing a spontaneous caster. But that's a totally different discussion.

Is that the one where you spend a Mythic point and cast ANY spell from your CLASS LIST?

Because I took that one with a wizard, but I forgot what the power was called. Totally OP.

Also, Half-Elf Sorcerers with Paragon Surge become T1. Paragon Surge->Extra Spell->any spell you might need. But also another discussion.

[Coretron03]

Also if Mythic is involved, sorcerers get a huge boost compared to wizards, since Wild Arcana basically negates the main weakness of playing a spontaneous caster. But that's a totally different discussion.

Problem is, that power benfits wizards just as much as sorcerers. Well, sure sorcerers get more benefit out of it because they start put lower and they have more downsides but it doesn't tip the scales between wizard and sorcerer. It is a incredibly powerful ability for anyone as its a huge addition to your highest level spells per day and basically lets you solve any situation, plus great for downtime. Dwarfs anything martial get and mythic is pretty bad balnce point.

Paragon surge after errata doesn't give them tier 1 after the errata because the feat has to be the same. Good for divinations, downtime and "once a day solve a problem" but not tier 1.

[Mordaedil]

I've been seeing it a lot on these boards, but where do people get the rule that a wizard can fill a slot with a 10-minute prep window from? The only place I recall that rule from was a feat which also specified you could only do so once per day?

[Coretron03]

I've been seeing it a lot on these boards, but where do people get the rule that a wizard can fill a slot with a 10-minute prep window from? The only place I recall that rule from was a feat which also specified you could only do so once per day?

Page 218 of the core rule book

"When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells."

Edit: There's also a wizard discovery, fast study that lets you prepare all of your spells in 15 minutes with a minimum prepare time of 1 minute.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/fast-study/

[Barstro]

every single new splatbook to see print is giving them more and more they need to learn - something the Wizard can pick up near-effortlessly.

While this is a fine logic for "What Sorcerers need to do in order to be like Wizards", I fail to see how it applies to the topic at hand. If a Core Wizard is Tier-1, then adding spells to the list does not change the Tier. Similarly, adding things to a class that is already Tier-1 does not effect what happens to classes in another Tier. The simple fact that there are now more spells in the universe does not necessitate the Sorcerer picking all of them up in order to become a Tier-1.

I am still of the mind that if a Sorcerer knows enough specific spells, then he can be Tier-1. I'm also willing to concede that such an accomplishment might not be feasible with Wealth By Level (or even WBL*4).

[Segev]

I am still of the mind that if a Sorcerer knows enough specific spells, then he can be Tier-1. I'm also willing to concede that such an accomplishment might not be feasible with Wealth By Level (or even WBL*4).

I'm inclined to agree. Conversely, a wizard who does not spend sufficient wealth on expanding his spellbook will be Tier 2. Or will he?

The question really is: how many spells must a wizard know to truly be Tier 1?

I contend that a sorcerer who knows as many spells as a Tier 1 wizard would also be Tier 1.

The follow-up is then: how many fewer spells than the bare-minimum Tier 1 wizard can a sorcerer get away with knowing and still be considered Tier 1? Does his spontaneous casting and access to ALL spells he knows as long as he has even ONE spell slot make up for missing ANY spells compared to the wizard who knows the fewest possible spells a wizard can get away with and still be considered Tier 1?

[Gnaeus]

While this is a fine logic for "What Sorcerers need to do in order to be like Wizards", I fail to see how it applies to the topic at hand. If a Core Wizard is Tier-1, then adding spells to the list does not change the Tier. Similarly, adding things to a class that is already Tier-1 does not effect what happens to classes in another Tier. The simple fact that there are now more spells in the universe does not necessitate the Sorcerer picking all of them up in order to become a Tier-1.4).

Sort of yes, sort of no. The tiers are optimization dependent. Grabbing the newest book as soon as it comes out and immediately plundering it for spells is certainly mid/high op behavior. But if enough new spells were added, it could shift the Tier bottom, currently somewhere at or below Druid.

Other than that, adding spells to the list has minimal impact. If the new spell is one of the top 6-8 Arcane spells of the level, it will kick up sorcerer by the marginal utility of taking it over whatever it replaces. If it's in about spot 9-20ish Arcane, it kicks wizard up by the marginal utility of taking it over whatever it replaces. For Tier evaluation, you probably only need to care about what it does to Witch or Druid. If, hypothetically, we decided that Druid was the floor of the Tier (possible but not concluded) and that sorcerer was below Witch, above Druid (possible but not decided) and that spell clearly kicked Druid above Sorcerer (possible) it could change tiering. But a really versatile metamagic feat could boost sorcerer. In practice it would have minimal impact most of the time.

[Psyren]

Wow long and passionate thread. I play and like both. But that doesn't change the definition of tier 1. We can argue about that too granted...

Do you need a trick to get to tier 1? Okay welcome to Tier 2.
Do you spend X to get to tier 1 when the other class can either already do it innately or do it for less? Okay, Tier 2.
Do you typically gain something AFTER the other class you are comparing it to? Another argument for Tier 2.
Do you gain less of something (feats, spells) as part of the base class compared to the other? Okay another check for Tier 2.

I don't deny that we can create custom cases where one class outshines the other...but baseline abilities the wizard has the deluxe swiss army knife and the sorcerer has the one with less tools...and get fewer tools added, and added later, as time goes on.

This is a decent summary in my opinion.

Anyway, I've cast my ballots in the other thread so I'm done debating it. I am however happy to refer to Sorc as "arguably T1" or "some believe T1" in posts going forward.

[Barstro]

Wow long and passionate thread. I play and like both. But that doesn't change the definition of tier 1. We can argue about that too granted...

1) Do you need a trick to get to tier 1? Okay welcome to Tier 2.
2) Do you spend X to get to tier 1 when the other class can either already do it innately or do it for less? Okay, Tier 2.
3) Do you typically gain something AFTER the other class you are comparing it to? Another argument for Tier 2.
4) Do you gain less of something (feats, spells) as part of the base class compared to the other? Okay another check for Tier 2.

I don't deny that we can create custom cases where one class outshines the other...but baseline abilities the wizard has the deluxe swiss army knife and the sorcerer has the one with less tools...and get fewer tools added, and added later, as time goes on.
Numbers added by me.

1) Even Wizards need a "trick". Sure, it's more of a class feature to scribe scrolls and scribe those into books, but they are not Tier 1 purely on their own.
This also requires circular logic. If I say that Sorcerer is Tier 1, then they don't need a trick to get there. You cannot start with "they are Tier 2 and require a trick to get to Tier 1, so they are Tier 2"

2) This really depends on your definition of "less". I readily admit that "Sorcerer as good as Wizard" is very expensive. But Wizard does not equal Tier 1, they are simply a subset.
Again you are defining Tiers by what is already in them. Classes either meet the definition of a Tier on their own, or they do not.

3) Same argument. I also disagree that something is a lower Tier simply because it takes one more level to be powerful.

4) ALL classes gain something less than all others.


Again, meeting a Tier is independent of whatever other classes meet a Tier. If we take the above requirements at face value, then there can never a a Tier 1 due to all classes inherent weaknesses.

I do agree that things should be looked at by "baseline". If only one build makes something Tier 1, then it just isn't really Tier 1

[Bucky]

I think I have an answer to the OP's question.

If a Sorcerer is given 3 extra levels on the rest of the party, but can ONLY use their highest level of spell slot to replicate lower level spells, they look as though they're Tier 1. A wizard needs significant effort for their highest level spells scriven to keep up with the sorcerer's spells known of the same level, and the sorcerer's extra WBL lets them use purchased Pages of Spell Knowledge to mostly keep up with the wizard's huge collection of low level spells. Furthermore, the Sorcerer's extra high level spells per day means the cost of using flexible high level spells to mimic the effects of narrow low-level spells is not so significant.

So what keeps a Sorcerer at Tier-2? Slow progression on top of the tradeoff between power and versatility.