Dragon Disciple?!

[xkroku]

Hi, I stumbled into a problem
In a campaign that I'm DMming in, one of my players (not a newbie, i'd call him beginning-optimizer) wants to play Dragon Disciple. He knows that Dragon Disciple is like Tier99, but he is ready to take it, mainly for fluff reasons. I want to reward him for this beautiful act in some way.

Is this reasonable to:
•Give DD full BAB?
•Change this 1-per-day breath weapon into a one with use every 1d4 or 2d4 rounds?
•Give the class a normal spellcasting progression instead of the bonus spells?

Every advice much appreciated!

[Venger]

Hi, I stumbled into a problem
In a campaign that I'm DMming in, one of my players (not a newbie, i'd call him beginning-optimizer) wants to play Dragon Disciple. He knows that Dragon Disciple is like Tier99, but he is ready to take it, mainly for fluff reasons. I want to reward him for this beautiful act in some way.

Is this reasonable to:
•Give DD full BAB?
•Change this 1-per-day breath weapon into a one with use every 1d4 or 2d4 rounds?
•Give the class a normal spellcasting progression instead of the bonus spells?

Every advice much appreciated!

yeah, those fixes sound pretty reasonable. go with 1d4 rounds for breath weapon. combat doesn't last 2d4 rounds past very low levels.

[Zancloufer]

The first two I think there is no problem with at all. You are pretty much spending 10 levels to become a weaker Half-Dragon at that point.

Full Casting on this PrC with all the other goodies would probably be a bit much. Maybe not 5/10 casting like in PF, but a 7/10 (maybe 8/10 depending on the party's overall power) casting progression would work well (defiantly the last level should be a "dead level" for casting). Would be a solid trade off: Loose 2~3 levels of casting for better BaB, HD, Fort save and the benefits of the Half-Dragon template.

[xkroku]

The first two I think there is no problem with at all. You are pretty much spending 10 levels to become a weaker Half-Dragon at that point.

Full Casting on this PrC with all the other goodies would probably be a bit much. Maybe not 5/10 casting like in PF, but a 7/10 (maybe 8/10 depending on the party's overall power) casting progression would work well (defiantly the last level should be a "dead level" for casting). Would be a solid trade off: Loose 2~3 levels of casting for better BaB, HD, Fort save and the benefits of the Half-Dragon template.

Yeah, I meant he gets a standard casting class spells increase every level when he would normally gain a bonus spell (this comes out as 7/10 cl increase)

[Telonius]

What's his build up to this point? If he's trying to Gish it up a bit (like, one level of Sorcerer and mostly melee) then it isn't completely terrible. There are better options, usually; but it does get some nifty stuff.

If he's focusing more on the Draconic flavor, I'd suggest taking a look in some of the Dragon-centric books (Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon) to see if there are any other options there that would appeal to him. Dracolexi can be pretty nice if it's not a high-op game.

[noce]

I suggest against giving full bab.
You gain +8 STR that more than makes up for the 3 bab loss.
If he uses his natural weapons, he doesn't get more attacks anyway.
If he uses a two handed weapon, he's doing a good chunk of damage thanks to said STR bonus.

I think the class is nicely balanced for a melee character with just a caster dip, and clearly not meant for full casters (maybe not even for canon gishes).
+8 STR, +2 CON, natural armor, bite, wings, blindsense, high will, d12 and a couple of Enlarge Person and Nerveskitters per day are all excellent additions to a fighter.

The only change I suggest is the 1d4 rounds breath weapon, just as a quality of life change.

[xkroku]

What's his build up to this point? If he's trying to Gish it up a bit (like, one level of Sorcerer and mostly melee) then it isn't completely terrible.

Right now he's Sorcerer 1/Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Dragon Disciple 1

[Inevitability]

I suggest against giving full bab.
You gain +8 STR that more than makes up for the 3 bab loss.
If he uses his natural weapons, he doesn't get more attacks anyway.
If he uses a two handed weapon, he's doing a good chunk of damage thanks to said STR bonus.

Firstly, the arcane spellcasting requirement means nine out of ten dragon disciples are going to lose four points of BAB, not three.

+8 strength means +6 damage per two-handed attack.
+4 BAB, if used with proper PA enhancers, can easily mean +12 or even +16 damage per two-handed attack. At worst, it's +8 damage plus the freedom to spend 10 class levels (or perhaps more like 11) on something that actually increases melee ability. Not to mention the possibility of an extra attack.

Sure, the dragon disciple will hit somewhat more often, but hitting doesn't tend to be a melee character's problem at high levels. Even a balor has only 35 AC.

[Telonius]

So, does the guy just really want to be a dragon? Dragonborn of Bahamut could be an option. No level investment necessary, and he could get a better breath weapon than Dragon Disciple if he wants. After that he could continue on in his regularly scheduled Crusader career.

[xkroku]

I think I'll go with:
•Full BAB
•6/10 spellcasting class progression
•+1 spell known on levels with no spellcasting progression (1, 4, 7, 10)
•Breath Weapon every 1d4+1 rounds

idk if it's too much, if it is, how about changing will save to poor or something?

[xkroku]

So, does the guy just really want to be a dragon? Dragonborn of Bahamut could be an option. No level investment necessary, and he could get a better breath weapon than Dragon Disciple if he wants. After that he could continue on in his regularly scheduled Crusader career.

He's made up his mind to play Dragon Disciple.
I tried convincing him into something better, but he stays with DD.
(He has something going on with the basic SRD, he's crazy about it)

[Segev]

I took a look at the PF Dragon Disciple just now, and realized that it doesn't do the "get the half dragon template" thing. Instead, it just gives boosts, and then it also lets you turn into a dragon a few times per day by casting form of the dragon I or II.

I think a good level 10 capstone would be letting you cast that spell at will, and retain your spellcasting.

[CharonsHelper]

Really - if you're playing Pathfinder the Dragon Disciple is fine. It's a bit sub-par past level 4, but it's perfectly playable. (If you convert to 3.5 - remember to give him the Pathfinder sorcerer bloodline - which is a big part of what makes the Pathfinder version better.)

I went that direction with one tiefling character. The character had been raised by a do-gooder dragon for a few years as a small child, and he was convinced that he was a half-dragon. (He DID have scales, enough fangs for a bite attack, a tail, and with sorcerer levels he had dragon powers - so not a crazy conclusion.)

[noce]

Firstly, the arcane spellcasting requirement means nine out of ten dragon disciples are going to lose four points of BAB, not three.

I tend to assume fractional bab, in which case you lose 3, but not everyone uses this. My fault.


+8 strength means +6 damage per two-handed attack.
+4 BAB, if used with proper PA enhancers, can easily mean +12 or even +16 damage per two-handed attack.

+8 STR means +4 to hit and +6 to damage, while +4 bab means +4 to hit.
It's true that power attack can scale very well, but only shock troopers can put all their bab on power attack.
If you're not a shock trooper, +8 STR seems better than +4 bab, in my opinion.


Not to mention the possibility of an extra attack.

Dragon Disciples get a bite attack. Less damage, but much more chance to hit than the last attack in the iterative.

All of this is not counting +2 CON, d12, high will, flight, blindsense, +4 AC.

[Inevitability]

+8 STR means +4 to hit and +6 to damage, while +4 bab means +4 to hit.
It's true that power attack can scale very well, but only shock troopers can put all their bab on power attack.
If you're not a shock trooper, +8 STR seems better than +4 bab, in my opinion.

Dragon Disciples get a bite attack. Less damage, but much more chance to hit than the last attack in the iterative.

All of this is not counting +2 CON, d12, high will, flight, blindsense, +4 AC.

Firstly, Storm Trooper is one of the most common feats for PA-users, so a sizable portion of them will actually have it.

Even on someone without shock trooper, there's a ton of ways to boost to-hit. Wand chambers of Wraithstrike, anyone?

The bite attack will miss out on all the other damage-boosters a main weapon enjoys, though. It doesn't get enhancement bonuses, or synergetic feats, or even the ability to bypass DR/magic without invested resources that could've been spend on other things.

Sure, dragon disciples get a bunch of extra stuff, but again: so does 11 levels of choice melee classes.

[Telok]

Right now he's Sorcerer 1/Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Dragon Disciple 1

Suggestion: Only change the bonus spells. Turn it into +1 of previous class's main abilities. That way he can mix sorcerer spell advancement and crusader maneuver advancement.

The breath weapons is... unimportant. 2d8 at 8th level? 6d8 at 15th level? Divine Surge is +8d8 and on approximately a 1d4+1 timer at IL 7. He could pick up Hatchling's Flame as a magic item sooner than the breath weapon comes on line.

[Telonius]

Well, if he's dead set on Dragon Disciple and nothing but Dragon Disciple, go ahead and let him. If you want to give him an extra boost on top of that, maybe give him the Intermediate Bloodline of his chosen dragon for free, as additional class features at each of the 10 levels of Dragon Disciple. The Energy Resistance will eventually be taken over by Dragon Apotheosis, but it'll be flavorful and a nice boost while he's waiting around for DD10. And he'll be playing the dragoniest dragon that ever dragonned.

Otherwise? I'd pay close attention to the treasure you're giving out, and make sure he gets some nice stuff that's tailored to him.

[xkroku]

Suggestion: Only change the bonus spells. Turn it into +1 of previous class's main abilities. That way he can mix sorcerer spell advancement and crusader maneuver advancement.

I like that idea. It'll give him some nice options. Should it be 10/10 or 7/10 (as bonus spells)?

However...


The breath weapons is... unimportant. 2d8 at 8th level? 6d8 at 15th level? Divine Surge is +8d8 and on approximately a 1d4+1 timer at IL 7. He could pick up Hatchling's Flame as a magic item sooner than the breath weapon comes on line.

I think i'll let him have the weapon every 1d4+1or so rounds. I like the breath weapon, and 6d8 1/day is just a joke.
Probably will leave BAB at 3/4

[Dagroth]

I like that idea. It'll give him some nice options. Should it be 10/10 or 7/10 (as bonus spells)?

However...

I think i'll let him have the weapon every 1d4+1or so rounds. I like the breath weapon, and 6d8 1/day is just a joke.
Probably will leave BAB at 3/4

Breath Weapon every with a recharge of 1d4 rounds means at best he'll be using it every other round.

Having it give +1 to class abilities (thus, either Sorcerer Casting or Crusader Maneuvers/Stances) is a great idea. 7/10 (as bonus spells) works fine, considering Jade Phoenix Mage.

BAB at 3/4 works fine too, considering you're giving him the +1 to class abilities option. Show him some of the nice things Sorcerers can get (like Wings of Cover & Greater Mage Armor) so he knows it's actually a good idea to advance Sorcerer for some of those levels.

You might also introduce him to Meta-Breath Feats. :smallbiggrin:

[xkroku]

You might also introduce him to Meta-Breath Feats. :smallbiggrin:

Thats exactly why I want his breath weapon not x/day but with a die recharge time. Many Metabreath feats require "breath weapon with recharge time expressed with rounds" :smallbiggrin:

[thoroughlyS]

He's made up his mind to play Dragon Disciple.
I tried convincing him into something better, but he stays with DD.
(He has something going on with the basic SRD, he's crazy about it)
Maybe show him the Half-Dragon Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)? I know he seems dead set, but if he's just after Half-Dragon, this is definitely a better option. According to the LA assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21763287&postcount=1259), +3 is a little steep, so maybe you could combine it with the Half-Dragon Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfDragonParagon) from Unearthed Arcana? As a 3 level class, this option is definitely strong, especially when you consider he can finish it up and return to Sorcerer levels after.

[ShurikVch]

An obscure fact: 3.0 version of Dragon Disciple gave size increase at 5th level

Since our Dragon Disciple is more of a "beatstick" than "squishy wizard sorcerer", give him +1 size with complete bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases)

[Dagroth]

Maybe show him the Half-Dragon Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)? I know he seems dead set, but if he's just after Half-Dragon, this is definitely a better option. According to the LA assignment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21763287&postcount=1259), +3 is a little steep, so maybe you could combine it with the Half-Dragon Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfDragonParagon) from Unearthed Arcana? As a 3 level class, this option is definitely strong, especially when you consider he can finish it up and return to Sorcerer levels after.

Wait... You're recommending three character levels that give everything that Half-Dragon gives plus d12 hit dice, full BAB, two good saves, +1 Natural Armor & breath weapon 3/day?

[thoroughlyS]

Wait... You're recommending three character levels that give everything that Half-Dragon gives plus d12 hit dice, full BAB, two good saves, +1 Natural Armor & breath weapon 3/day?
Attaching the bonuses to a decent chassis would make up for the fact that the template is 1 level too long, and the paragon bonuses aren't necessarily all that strong at the level they're playing at. Especially when you consider the feat Dragon Breath (Races of the Dragon) gives unlimited uses with the standard 1d4 cooldown.

[Dagroth]

The three Paragon levels are almost as good as 3 Barbarian levels (not counting 1st & 2nd level Barbarian).

Just the changes to Dragon Disciple that we've suggested (7/10 class progression, 3/4 BAB, Essentially a the Dragons Breath feat for free) gives him the 3 ECL of Half-Dragon spread across the class, but still gives him Hit Points, Skill Points & Saves on those levels. Oh, and he gets Wings! Something medium Half-Dragons don't normally get.

What you're describing (Half-Dragon + Half-Dragon Paragon all in 3 levels) is something that almost any melee build would look at as a "must have", because it's broken.

[thoroughlyS]

The three Paragon levels are almost as good as 3 Barbarian levels (not counting 1st & 2nd level Barbarian).

What you're describing (Half-Dragon + Half-Dragon Paragon all in 3 levels) is something that almost any melee build would look at as a "must have", because it's broken.
Except that I'm not making this a suggestion for something in general. I don't think this needs to be an option at every table, for every game. I think this specific person could benefit from having this as an option for their character. I'll admit, I didn't really think about the strength that the chassis has on its own, so maybe just shortening the savage progression to 2 levels is a better alternative.

[weckar]

Silly question perhaps, but does the player in question WANT the class to be buffed? I'd feel cheated if I signed up for one class but got a heavily modified one...

[xkroku]

Silly question perhaps, but does the player in question WANT the class to be buffed? I'd feel cheated if I signed up for one class but got a heavily modified one...

He's totally ok with it, I'm letting him know of any change that I'm implementing, and asking if it's ok.

By far, he's totally ok with the changes (it's his birthday today, so I'm thinking of maybe a little buff, like maybe adding any spell to known at 10 lvl or maybe bonus Draconic Feat...)