My Mystic Analysis- Looking for other people's opinions

[treecko]

The mystic came out, and it is long, complicated, and seems quite good. I've tried to break it down in the form of a guide, and I would like other people's opinions on my ratings, and how good it seems vs other classes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OYCD6xlK8qXutf6ULAq2Ba-etlblsj0EEQqHIDRk4c/edit?usp=sharing

What I have issues most with are the mind only casting (subtle spell on everything basically), the skills from Nomad's mind, and the mind messing abilities.

Please, tell me your thoughts!

[Deleted]

The mystic came out, and it is long, complicated, and seems quite good. I've tried to break it down in the form of a guide, and I would like other people's opinions on my ratings, and how good it seems vs other classes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13OYCD6xlK8qXutf6ULAq2Ba-etlblsj0EEQqHIDRk4c/edit?usp=sharing

What I have issues most with are the mind only casting (subtle spell on everything basically), the skills from Nomad's mind, and the mind messing abilities.

Please, tell me your thoughts!


I'll look at this in a bit, but my overall thoughts on the mystic is that it doesn't belong in 5e. Now, you can MAKE a 5e where it belongs! But the current situation of 5e is not it.

The mystic steps on too many toes, is a very general class, and should have just been called the Incarnate.

If you had a Martial, Spellcaster, and Mystic as your three classes... I could see this working quite well and I may remake my build a martial and finish my sorcerer just for this purpose. This way all three primary types are "build your own" classes.

[KorvinStarmast]

IMO, it violates the "less complicated" objective for 5e. Mystic has a lot of fiddly bits and book keeping, and IMO is not good for most beginner players. I think it's a "once one has a bit of system mastery" in 5e probably an interesting class to play if the player will dedicate themselves to keeping track faithfully of all of the points during play.

Having reviewed the material twice, I am itching to play test it under two different modes:
1. A campaign from levels 1- 12 (or 15) with one of each discipline in the party.
2. A similar campaign with a single Mystic in an other wise PHB+1 only party.

As I don't have a local group that wish may languish and die. (I finally have one night a week free for game night if I wish, so this or an AL group will probably be just fine).

It risks, depending on how they mod it before release (and I think they will be releasing Mystic in a finished form eventually) having the same problem psionics has always had.

[Deleted]

IMO, it violates the "less complicated" objective for 5e. Mystic has a lot of fiddly bits and book keeping, and IMO is not good for most beginner players. I think it's a "once one has a bit of system mastery" in 5e probably an interesting class to play if the player will dedicate themselves to keeping track faithfully of all of the points during play.

Having reviewed the material twice, I am itching to play test it under two different modes:
1. A campaign from levels 1- 12 (or 15) with one of each discipline in the party.
2. A similar campaign with a single Mystic in an other wise PHB+1 only party.

As I don't have a local group that wish may languish and die. (I finally have one night a week free for game night if I wish, so this or an AL group will probably be just fine).

It risks, depending on how they mod it before release (and I think they will be releasing Mystic in a finished form eventually) having the same problem psionics has always had.

To be fair, a majority of the "no fiddly bits" was lip service.

Attacks in 5e
* Weapon Attack
* Melee Weapon Attack
* Ranged Weapon Attack
* Melee Spell Attack
* Ranged Spell Attack
* Unarmed Strike
* Attack with a weapon in one hand and no weapon in the other
* Attack with a heavy weapon
* Attack with a light or finesse weapon
* Attack with a light weapon
* When you take the attack action, your reach increases by 5'
* Special melee attack (grapple)
* Special melee attack (shove)

Spells in 5e
* Attack versus AC (see above)
* Str saving throw
* dex saving throw
* con saving throw
* Int saving throw
* Wis saving throw
* Cha saving throw
* Intelligence Check (because this can't be an Int save?)

Other fiddly things that I feel like bringing up
* Exhaustion
* Wizard having a spell book.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wizard having a spell book. Don't mess with tradition.

[Hathorym]

Thank you for spending the time and effort in writing this. While I do have a few quibbles here and there, I agree with your assessments.

[Deleted]

Don't mess with tradition.

Doesn't make it any less fiddly.

[treecko]

Thank you for spending the time and effort in writing this. While I do have a few quibbles here and there, I agree with your assessments.

Thanks! I hope to turn it into a mystic guide once the class comes out officially (which it no doubt will).

[Inchoroi]

I do agree that there may be a bit too many fiddly bits, the only place I find that to be above the norm is in the psi points, which is somewhat intrinsic to the class, so they have to remain. I'm trying to convince someone to playtest this out for my upcoming campaign in July, but no takers yet. They all want to be spellcasting humans, for some reason...

[Deleted]

I do agree that there may be a bit too many fiddly bits, the only place I find that to be above the norm is in the psi points, which is somewhat intrinsic to the class, so they have to remain. I'm trying to convince someone to playtest this out for my upcoming campaign in July, but no takers yet. They all want to be spellcasting humans, for some reason...

They must really love macro-fiddly bits as Spellcasting is very fiddly.

I just want to say, that I'm all for fiddly bits.

As long as they stay consistent and you don't add new types of fiddly bits down the road (cough3ecough) and you stay with macro fiddly bits.

Subclasses and Class Features are macro-fiddly bits.

+1's here and there and tree features that give you a sloooow progression are micro fiddly bits.

However I just want the Mystic to really fit in with the game and it doesn't really do it that well.

[Provo]

Mastery of light and darkness should probably be gold.

Level 1 magical darkness (that foils dark vision) for minimal cost without concentration is huge. Plus you can see through said darkness.

A lot of people dip two levels of Warlock just to get this trick, and mystic gets it for MUCH cheaper.

Edit: even with the risk of annoying your team, this is way too abusable.

[treecko]

I changed the rating on light and darkness to blue, for two reasons. First is the darkness bit, which is a strong trick even if their darkvision is weaker than the warlocks. The other reason is the more I look at shadows, the better I realize they are.

[Squiddish]

My thing with the mystic: It seems interesting, awesome, and fun to play, but also somewhere between a bit and a lot too powerful.

In the hands of a normal, decent person, a mystic might come out a bit ahead of the power curve, but not enough to outshine other people.

In the hands of a munchkin, it would wreck the game, shred the plot, and hit all of the players in the face with a metaphorical hammer.

Another thing is that it just feels tacked on, as is typical for psionics. I feel like it would seem more natural if soulknife was a rogue archetype, or we had some associated feats or something.

[Deleted]

My thing with the mystic: It seems interesting, awesome, and fun to play, but also somewhere between a bit and a lot too powerful.

In the hands of a normal, decent person, a mystic might come out a bit ahead of the power curve, but not enough to outshine other people.

In the hands of a munchkin, it would wreck the game, shred the plot, and hit all of the players in the face with a metaphorical hammer.

Another thing is that it just feels tacked on, as is typical for psionics. I feel like it would seem more natural if soulknife was a rogue archetype, or we had some associated feats or something.

Well, it is just tacked on.

[Quoxis]

I really want to like it, and having started playing D&D less than a year ago i don't think it's too difficult to handle with a little bit of honesty and reading, but - just as many before me - i think it's too powerful. Throw in a few levels of a martial class and you get multiattack with massive boni, or dip the mystic for one level to get three (if you take anything but soul blade) foci and their abilities... Almost all of this seems overpowered in the low levels.
Also: you can bend most classes to fit another role, be it the face wizard, the grapple bard, the controller fighter, whatever - but you can bend a mystic into everything, in most cases they're even doing the exact same tricks as others but better or/and sooner into the game.

[Steampunkette]

The Unearthed Arcana for Mystic LITERALLY SAYS that it is not balanced for Multiclassing yet.

So the whole "Multiclassing too stronk!" argument is a pointless circle.

That said.

I mostly agree with your assessment, Applepi. However I think the Soulknife is going to be a bit stronger than most people realize. And while 2 PP is a tiny bit (especially with the killing blow requirement) I could easily see a SK talking to her party members about the power she draws out of those she fells with her psy-knives and how important it can be for her to take down some enemies, here and there, for refueling.

Every 2pp is another 2d10 of Smiting, after all.

Mind Meld, on the other hand, allows you to communicate with beings that don't have a language and, most importantly, take one of their memories. Forget detecting thoughts or interrogating the Hobgoblin Scout, you can yoink the memory of him standing before Zallisk the Betrayer, Mage of the Royal Order, laying out his nefarious plot for his generals and their scouts.

[Ferrin33]

I really want to like it, and having started playing D&D less than a year ago i don't think it's too difficult to handle with a little bit of honesty and reading, but - just as many before me - i think it's too powerful. Throw in a few levels of a martial class and you get multiattack with massive boni, or dip the mystic for one level to get three (if you take anything but soul blade) foci and their abilities... Almost all of this seems overpowered in the low levels.
Also: you can bend most classes to fit another role, be it the face wizard, the grapple bard, the controller fighter, whatever - but you can bend a mystic into everything, in most cases they're even doing the exact same tricks as others but better or/and sooner into the game.

UA content is not balanced with multiclassing in mind.

The main strength of the Mystic seems to be versatility > power. He doesn't get the equivalent of higher levels spells, and instead relies on combining multiple effects together or targeting the opponent's weaknesses.

[Provo]

UA content is not balanced with multiclassing in mind.

The main strength of the Mystic seems to be versatility > power. He doesn't get the equivalent of higher levels spells, and instead relies on combining multiple effects together or targeting the opponent's weaknesses.

Yes, but a major problem is that during the low to mid level range the mystic isn't behind in "spell level" but still has a ton their versatility.

[Ferrin33]

Yes, but a major problem is that during the low to mid level range the mystic isn't behind in "spell level" but still has a ton their versatility.

If you were to say that they're frontloaded, I would agree. But overall, especially at higher levels, I think they're fine if somewhat lacking.

If I were to change it, I would give them another discipline of their subclass at a higher level, like 10, rather than 2 upfront like now.

[joaber]

Some opinions:
Soul Knives - mystic already have too much uses for bonus action, you can't use that with many disciplines and you can't recover life and make bonus action attack at same time. You don't have two weapon fighting style too.
Consumptive Knife - isn't bad at all, in fact, RAW is broken, you can say in your background that you hate invertebrates more than anything, now just kill 20 bugs to recover 40 psi. This need a fix like CR bigger than 0.

Brute Force -
Brute Strike - you can use this after the hit and before the damage, so you use after see a crit and will not lose the psi points if miss, unlike any other discipline that add damage. Using when crit, this is better than lethal strike
athletics focus is amazing to any grappler or shield master build, as Feat of Strength.
This is conditional, but worth a "black" rank

Giant Growth - really useful if multiclass, but agree that don't help much a full mystic (unless you go as grappler)

Light and Darkness: devil's sight + no concentration darkness for 1 PP make this gold for any ranged build, shadows are a good plus.

But I really agree with most part of your analysis.

[nilshai]

I disagree with the control abilities being to strong. Most effects are basically like Hold Monster or Confusion. One does damage and a lesser effect than Hold Monster, another does a similar effect with different flavor.


The mystic steps on too many toes, is a very general class, and should have just been called the Incarnate.

The whole concept of stepping on toes doesn't make sense. Here an easy example: "Whaaaat?!?! You deal damage, too?!?!".
Seriously, if the Mystic did everything the Rogue AND the Bard does, it wouldn't matter at all, because of action economy and ressources.

[Matrix_Walker]

I lost most of my interest in playing the Mystic when it want from revision 2 to 3... Lethal Strike went from Smite-like ability to smite-spell-like ability, and that loss takes all the joy out of a Martial styled Mystic.

[Cybren]

I'll look at this in a bit, but my overall thoughts on the mystic is that it doesn't belong in 5e. Now, you can MAKE a 5e where it belongs! But the current situation of 5e is not it.

The mystic steps on too many toes, is a very general class, and should have just been called the Incarnate.

If you had a Martial, Spellcaster, and Mystic as your three classes... I could see this working quite well and I may remake my build a martial and finish my sorcerer just for this purpose. This way all three primary types are "build your own" classes.

That's because you're evaluating it from the lens of "this will be the full class eventually released" rather than "this is a testing ground of alternate mechanics".

[Deleted]

That's because you're evaluating it from the lens of "this will be the full class eventually released" rather than "this is a testing ground of alternate mechanics".

Who knows. Maybe this is the final version (sans some minor editing) or maybe it won't be. You and I don't know that. I can only go by what they show us and pretending what's there isn't there won't help anything.

Well... Let's do it your way.

I don't like how they gave it at-will firestorm at level 1. That might be a bit unbalanced.

I'm not a fan of the Wu Jen just saying *insert wizard here*, they could have put some effort into it!

And why did they stop at level 17... That seems like a weird level to stop at!



edit===



I disagree with the control abilities being to strong. Most effects are basically like Hold Monster or Confusion. One does damage and a lesser effect than Hold Monster, another does a similar effect with different flavor.



The whole concept of stepping on toes doesn't make sense. Here an easy example: "Whaaaat?!?! You deal damage, too?!?!".
Seriously, if the Mystic did everything the Rogue AND the Bard does, it wouldn't matter at all, because of action economy and ressources.


I don't disagree with you. However 5e was made with the idea of not stepping on toes... Which is why unarmed strikes where made the way they were and why the Tavern Brawler was made the way it was, so the Monk wouldn't have their toes stepped on.

I'm all for generic classes that you can mix and match and make cool combinations... But only if everyone is on the same playing field.

[Zene]

A lot of the things that are very tough to get on one character for grappling builds... bonuses to athletics checks, advantage on athletics checks, size category increases, teleportation/mega jumps/flight/movement bonuses, damage resistance... can be pulled together easily in the mystic as currently written. You could even get a lot of that at level 1. It's a little bit counterbalanced by the fact that mystics are light on AC and miss second attack. But it this isn't *heavily* nerfed (and way moreso than UAs have been in the past) before made official, MC mystic grapple builds will be exponentially better than anything currently possible.

[joaber]

I disagree with the control abilities being to strong. Most effects are basically like Hold Monster or Confusion. One does damage and a lesser effect than Hold Monster, another does a similar effect with different flavor.

You know Psychic Grip cost the same as a 4th lvl spell, hold monster is 5th, has 1/3 of range but don't need components, is Int save instead Wis and if he fail in his turn you can move him triggering how many AoO you can, with advantage and auto crit. And with Psionic Mastery you can use up to 5 psi at same time.
I'll not say it's to strong looking at that only that one, because spellcaster get many things that mystic don't. But this one is obviously better than hold monster

[Naanomi]

Just worked with one of my players to build a Mystic for our next game (planned the character 1-20, but changes may occur in play of course). Two things that came up:

I feel like we ended up with 1-2 'too many' disciplines. We could do everything we wanted the character to do by 20, but still had to pick a few.

Likewise, I don't think that nearly *every* subclass needed bonus skills... why are mystics inherently just as broadly skilled as a Rogue (and moreso than a Bard)?

Clarification on if feats would work for the class (like Warcaster or Spellsniper) would also be nice

[Matrix_Walker]

You know Psychic Grip cost the same as a 4th lvl spell, hold monster is 5th, has 1/3 of range but don't need components, is Int save instead Wis and if he fail in his turn you can move him triggering how many AoO you can, with advantage and auto crit. And with Psionic Mastery you can use up to 5 psi at same time.
I'll not say it's to strong looking at that only that one, because spellcaster get many things that mystic don't. But this one is obviously better than hold monster

Attacks of Opportunity are only triggered by voluntary, willing movement.

[Deleted]

You know Psychic Grip cost the same as a 4th lvl spell, hold monster is 5th, has 1/3 of range but don't need components, is Int save instead Wis and if he fail in his turn you can move him triggering how many AoO you can, with advantage and auto crit. And with Psionic Mastery you can use up to 5 psi at same time.
I'll not say it's to strong looking at that only that one, because spellcaster get many things that mystic don't. But this one is obviously better than hold monster

Forced Movement don't provoke OA.

[joaber]

PHB 195: "Vou also don't provoke an
opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone
or something moves you without using your movement,
action, or reaction."

You're compelling it to use his movement, so trigger AoO. Same thing with fear, dissonant whisppers, command...

[dejarnjc]

Nice analysis but I would bump up Master of Wood and Earth to minimum blue and possibly gold due to Wall of Wood.

I'm half convinced this is a typo but the discipline reads:

Wall of Wood (3 psi; conc., 1 hr.). As an
action, you create a wall of wood at least one
portion of which must be within 60 feet of you.
The wall is 60 feet long, 15 feet high, and 1 foot
thick. The wall lasts until your concentration
ends. Each 5-foot wide section of the wall has AC
12 and 100 hit points. Breaking one section
creates a 5-foot by 5-foot hole in it, but the wall
otherwise remains intact.

12 AC, 100 HP sections is extremely powerful for what is essentially a 2nd level spell. This seems stronger than wall of stone even which is a 5th level spell (15 AC, 30 HP sections) though wall of wood won't be permanent if you concentrate on it through the duration like wall of stone.

[Matrix_Walker]

PHB 195: "Vou also don't provoke an
opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone
or something moves you without using your movement,
action, or reaction."

You're compelling it to use his movement, so trigger AoO. Same thing with fear, dissonant whisppers, command...

hmmn, and it uses half their speed, so I suppose that could mean their movement. It does not use their reaction tho...

[Syll]

Psionic Regeneration: Blue only for avatar mystics, who can rack up a lot of out of combat healing with mend wounds. For other mystics, this is the only healing you can get, and it’s not very good. Leave this to the clerics- although it does help to have another healer sometimes. Also notable, is the versions of greater restoration and revitify have no material cost.

I think this assessment is a bit harsh. If you view this from the standpoint psi-point/spell equivalencies a Cure Wounds takes a first level slot and heals 1d8+mod; comparatively 2 psi points heals 2d8. It has the potential to roll snake eyes sure, but also the potential to roll more than Cure wounds is capable of. 2nd level: 2d8+mod vs 3d8, 3rd level: 3d8+mod vs 5d8 etc.

It's certainly -better- with Avatar, but it doesn't strike me as bad without.

[Naanomi]

I think this assessment is a bit harsh. If you view this from the standpoint psi-point/spell equivalencies a Cure Wounds takes a first level slot and heals 1d8+mod; comparatively 2 psi points heals 2d8. It has the potential to roll snake eyes sure, but also the potential to roll more than Cure wounds is capable of. 2nd level: 2d8+mod vs 3d8, 3rd level: 3d8+mod vs 5d8 etc.

It's certainly -better- with Avatar, but it doesn't strike me as bad without.
In the few mystics I've built on paper, it isn't uncommon to 'run out' of things you are really interested in... a good 'backup healing' with Resurrection potential is a good late-game choice to me

[Cybren]

Who knows. Maybe this is the final version (sans some minor editing) or maybe it won't be. You and I don't know that. I can only go by what they show us and pretending what's there isn't there won't help anything.

Crawford literally said this on twitter. The purpose of the Mystic UA is to test an alternate system of magic/special abilities

[Deleted]

Crawford literally said this on twitter. The purpose of the Mystic UA is to test an alternate system of magic/special abilities

And again... That doesn't mean anything. 5 bucks says Crawford doeant even know the exact bature of what the Mystic will be, unless this UA was just a false flag and they have one ready but are just appeasing people for now?

But what, we can't have an opinion on what they actually put out for us to have an opinion on?

We have to have opinions based on things they haven't put out?

Should we ignore the mystic, tell them we ignored it, but then give feedback on stuff we made up about the mystic?

You are not dealing in reality.


Edit====

Back to reality.



PHB 195: "Vou also don't provoke an
opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone
or something moves you without using your movement,
action, or reaction."

You're compelling it to use his movement, so trigger AoO. Same thing with fear, dissonant whisppers, command...

There was a tweet about OA and things like Command wouldn't even trigger as you are forcing the creature to use their movement...

Honestly it's weird and it's not like OA are usually all that powerful so go ahead. Hellz it would speed up the game a bit.

[Cybren]

And again... That doesn't mean anything. 5 bucks says Crawford doeant even know the exact bature of what the Mystic will be, unless this UA was just a false flag and they have one ready but are just appeasing people for now?

But what, we can't have an opinion on what they actually put out for us to have an opinion on?

We have to have opinions based on things they haven't put out?

Should we ignore the mystic, tell them we ignored it, but then give feedback on stuff we made up about the mystic?

You are not dealing in reality.

Your specific criticisms hinge on the Mystic playtest intending on playtesting a specific class rather than a specific mechanic. Arguing it "steps on too many toes" is irrelevant, it's stepping on all the toes intentionally. It's a playtest.
You can make plenty of fair criticisms about the Mystic. You made a few specific ones that are nonsense in the context of the playtest.

[joaber]

There was a tweet about OA and things like Command wouldn't even trigger as you are forcing the creature to use their movement...

Honestly it's weird and it's not like OA are usually all that powerful so go ahead. Hellz it would speed up the game a bit.

Do ypu know that twitter? Because the rule in PHB is clear that if you force target to use movement, action or reaction, that trigger AO

what i find was that one, confirming state exactly that you can make OA with a flee command:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/02/will-the-flee-command-from-the-command-spell-attract-attack-of-opportunity/

Crit OA are powerful, rogue OA is powerful, crit smite OA is powerful, war caster OA is powerful, crit barbarian OA is powerful...

[Logosloki]

I feel the mystic has a similar issue to the warlock in that it has the kitchen sink approach to class design (throw a bit of everything in there and it will balance itself out). The difference between the Warlock and the mystic is that the warlock was a release class and the mystic is something they have made from looking at the other classes retrospectively (much like most of UA). I feel that if they wanted to test psionics then they should have made a couple of classes rather than one mega class.

[Matrix_Walker]

I said it before and I'll say it again... Six psi sub-classes and 28 pages of content including a Discipline called Telepathic Contact... And still, no way for a Psi to initiate a two way telepathic conversation.

Boo! Boooo!

[dejarnjc]

I said it before and I'll say it again... Six psi sub-classes and 28 pages of content including a Discipline called Telepathic Contact... And still, no way for a Psi to initiate a two way telepathic conversation.

Boo! Boooo!

The Mind Meld talent technically allows this.

As a bonus action, you can communicate
telepathically with one willing creature you can
see within 120 feet of you. The target must have
an Intelligence of at least 2, otherwise this talent
fails and the action is wasted.
This communication can occur until the end of
the current turn. You don’t need to share a
language with the target for it to understand
your telepathic utterances, and it understands
you even if it lacks a language. You also gain
access to one memory of the target’s choice,
gaining perfect recall of one thing it saw or did.


Presumably the memory could be used to carry on a conversation. For example, I mentally ask you a question, and you send me your memory from 2 seconds ago of you articulating a response in your head. I'll admit it's not the most elegant but I kinda like it.

[Cybren]

Communicate kind of implies that it's two-way already

[Jarlhen]

The telepathy is not two-way as per Sage Advice unless explicitly stated. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/14/does-the-monster-manuals-description-of-how-telepathy-works-apply-to-the-mystics-telepathy/

[Ferrin33]

I don't see any two-way telepathy either aside from the work-around that dejarnjc mentioned with Mind Meld.

I actually like that. You're sending your thoughts/implanting them in a person's brain, something the receiving party can't do back. Instead, they can elect to open up part of their mind to you as per Mind Meld, or you use one of the other disciplines to force memories or thoughts out.

That said, I think it wouldn't be too weird to be able to enhance allies' mental faculties to be able to telepathically communicate.

[KorvinStarmast]

I said it before and I'll say it again... Six psi sub-classes and 28 pages of content including a Discipline called Telepathic Contact... And still, no way for a Psi to initiate a two way telepathic conversation. Respectfully disagree.
Page 4, Telepathy. At 2d level all Mystics ...
"can telepathically speak to any creature you can see within 120 {feet}"
Speaking is a way to initiate a conversation. The mind meld talent is a form of two way exchange of information, which is communication ... however awkward. As Ferrin33 points out, that makes the telepathic conversation a challenge, and could make for some interesting back and forth between the DM and the player. If the other creature is a mystic, or has telepathy, then something like a clear phone conversation could be undertaken.

[Matrix_Walker]

Speaking is one way. J Crawford confirms the Mystic's Telepathy is one way here:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/841459385096265728

Yes, someone could reply if they had a memory of themselves saying what they wanted to say, but could not convey a new idea quickly. Needlessly poor design.

[Ferrin33]

Speaking is one way. J Crawford confirms the Mystic's Telepathy is one way here:

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/841459385096265728

Yes, someone could reply if they had a memory of themselves saying what they wanted to say, but could not convey a new idea quickly. Needlessly poor design.

The Mystic has the capability of sending his thoughts to another mind. The people receiving his thoughts aren't trained to do that. Mind Meld is, like the name implies, more personal, and lets the Mystic have a look at whatever the other person opens up to him in his mind. The mystic also has more powerful disciplines to focus on taking the thoughts of others, but those all rely on the mystic's powers of the mind.

I agree it would be nice to have two-way telepathy, but I think it would be for a new discipline that enhances/alters the minds of others. I don't, however, think it breaks immersion if you think about it the way I described; the Mystic has the power, not others as they're just not trained to do so.

[SharkForce]

A lot of the things that are very tough to get on one character for grappling builds... bonuses to athletics checks, advantage on athletics checks, size category increases, teleportation/mega jumps/flight/movement bonuses, damage resistance... can be pulled together easily in the mystic as currently written. You could even get a lot of that at level 1. It's a little bit counterbalanced by the fact that mystics are light on AC and miss second attack. But it this isn't *heavily* nerfed (and way moreso than UAs have been in the past) before made official, MC mystic grapple builds will be exponentially better than anything currently possible.

i'm not sure it would be exponentially better.

i mean, better, definitely. mostly because you can increase your size more than anyone else. apart from that? is a 99% chance really an exponential improvement over 95% chance? because we already have level 1 characters that can fly and grapple in the game, so that's nothing terribly new.

[Zene]

i'm not sure it would be exponentially better.

i mean, better, definitely. mostly because you can increase your size more than anyone else. apart from that? is a 99% chance really an exponential improvement over 95% chance? because we already have level 1 characters that can fly and grapple in the game, so that's nothing terribly new.

The L1 characters with flight (Aarakocra and Winged Tiefling) aren't allowed in AL or by many DMs. But ok sure, if you include them, you can make a L1 rogue with expertise in Athletics, or a L1 barbarian with advantage on grapple checks. They're still going to miss that grapple a lot of the time, have very little in the way of defenses, and won't be able to lift most creatures above size S up with flight due to str limitations. If you're building a grappler, you're sacrificing a lot for that L1 flight, and I'd venture it's going to be a long time before you hit that "95%" effective mark, if ever.

And no current grappler build can grapple a Gargantuan creature. So it's 0% in that size category, not 95%. For Huge, you can only do it with the Enlarge spell, which is actually pretty hard to work into most effective grappling builds.

To get that "95%" effectiveness you mentioned, current grapplers really need expertise in Athletics (i.e. Rogue 1 or Bard 3), advantage on strength checks (Barbarian 1 or [Full Spellcaster] 3 or [EK/AT] 7), and some kind of survivabilty boost (EK's full plate and Shield spell, or Bear Totem Barbarian 3). So they're almost always multiclassing just to get the basics. And that's just to successfully land and maintain the grapple. If they actually want to drag them into hazards or away from squishies, they need movement speed boosts, and (usually) carrying capacity boosts. If they want to be able to "suplex" (i.e. drop grappled opponents from the air for auto-prone and a little damage) they need flight or a massive jump boost. If they want to grapple anything Huge, they need the Enlarge spell, which is incompatible with Barbarian Rage builds and isn't super easy to work into other builds (EKs/ATs don't get it until 7 for example, and remember they probably multiclassed so it's more like CL8 or later). If they want to grapple anything bigger than that --well, they can't.

My point is, to pull together the pieces you need to be a decent grappler, you're going multiple levels into multiple classes. Mystics as written can do it all (and more) in just one class, and at much lower overall character levels. Or if multiclassed, can bring the grapple tricks to the mix with a 1 or 2 or 3 level dip that you'd need to go much deeper into other classes to get (or not get at all). On top of that, as currently written Psi concentration doesn't conflict with Barbarian Rage, opening up all kinds of possibilities.

[SaintRidley]

I think they specifically went with "speak to" rather than "speak with" to make it one-way and make Mind Meld a meaningful choice.

It's dumb, but there it is.

[joaber]

The L1 characters with flight (Aarakocra and Winged Tiefling) aren't allowed in AL or by many DMs. But ok sure, if you include them, you can make a L1 rogue with expertise in Athletics, or a L1 barbarian with advantage on grapple checks. They're still going to miss that grapple a lot of the time, have very little in the way of defenses, and won't be able to lift most creatures above size S up with flight due to str limitations. If you're building a grappler, you're sacrificing a lot for that L1 flight, and I'd venture it's going to be a long time before you hit that "95%" effective mark, if ever.

And no current grappler build can grapple a Gargantuan creature. So it's 0% in that size category, not 95%. For Huge, you can only do it with the Enlarge spell, which is actually pretty hard to work into most effective grappling builds.

To get that "95%" effectiveness you mentioned, current grapplers really need expertise in Athletics (i.e. Rogue 1 or Bard 3), advantage on strength checks (Barbarian 1 or [Full Spellcaster] 3 or [EK/AT] 7), and some kind of survivabilty boost (EK's full plate and Shield spell, or Bear Totem Barbarian 3). So they're almost always multiclassing just to get the basics. And that's just to successfully land and maintain the grapple. If they actually want to drag them into hazards or away from squishies, they need movement speed boosts, and (usually) carrying capacity boosts. If they want to be able to "suplex" (i.e. drop grappled opponents from the air for auto-prone and a little damage) they need flight or a massive jump boost. If they want to grapple anything Huge, they need the Enlarge spell, which is incompatible with Barbarian Rage builds and isn't super easy to work into other builds (EKs/ATs don't get it until 7 for example, and remember they probably multiclassed so it's more like CL8 or later). If they want to grapple anything bigger than that --well, they can't.

My point is, to pull together the pieces you need to be a decent grappler, you're going multiple levels into multiple classes. Mystics as written can do it all (and more) in just one class, and at much lower overall character levels. Or if multiclassed, can bring the grapple tricks to the mix with a 1 or 2 or 3 level dip that you'd need to go much deeper into other classes to get (or not get at all). On top of that, as currently written Psi concentration doesn't conflict with Barbarian Rage, opening up all kinds of possibilities.

You forgot moon druid, they can grapple gargantuan as giant constrictor snake.

But yeah mysyic is great and probably will add a lot in any grappler multiclass.

[Matrix_Walker]

Hmnn no components... Wildshaped Psi?

[joaber]

Hmnn no components... Wildshaped Psi?

The grappler with all psi benefits and spike growth with brutal force extra movement, well... I think disciplines will not work in wild shape, lol.

[Zene]

You forgot moon druid, they can grapple gargantuan as giant constrictor snake.

True. Or with giant scorpion, or with giant toad. But with escape DCs ranging from 12 to 16 they're not going to grapple anything gargantuan for long.

[SharkForce]

The L1 characters with flight (Aarakocra and Winged Tiefling) aren't allowed in AL or by many DMs. But ok sure, if you include them, you can make a L1 rogue with expertise in Athletics, or a L1 barbarian with advantage on grapple checks. They're still going to miss that grapple a lot of the time, have very little in the way of defenses, and won't be able to lift most creatures above size S up with flight due to str limitations. If you're building a grappler, you're sacrificing a lot for that L1 flight, and I'd venture it's going to be a long time before you hit that "95%" effective mark, if ever.

And no current grappler build can grapple a Gargantuan creature. So it's 0% in that size category, not 95%. For Huge, you can only do it with the Enlarge spell, which is actually pretty hard to work into most effective grappling builds.

To get that "95%" effectiveness you mentioned, current grapplers really need expertise in Athletics (i.e. Rogue 1 or Bard 3), advantage on strength checks (Barbarian 1 or [Full Spellcaster] 3 or [EK/AT] 7), and some kind of survivabilty boost (EK's full plate and Shield spell, or Bear Totem Barbarian 3). So they're almost always multiclassing just to get the basics. And that's just to successfully land and maintain the grapple. If they actually want to drag them into hazards or away from squishies, they need movement speed boosts, and (usually) carrying capacity boosts. If they want to be able to "suplex" (i.e. drop grappled opponents from the air for auto-prone and a little damage) they need flight or a massive jump boost. If they want to grapple anything Huge, they need the Enlarge spell, which is incompatible with Barbarian Rage builds and isn't super easy to work into other builds (EKs/ATs don't get it until 7 for example, and remember they probably multiclassed so it's more like CL8 or later). If they want to grapple anything bigger than that --well, they can't.

My point is, to pull together the pieces you need to be a decent grappler, you're going multiple levels into multiple classes. Mystics as written can do it all (and more) in just one class, and at much lower overall character levels. Or if multiclassed, can bring the grapple tricks to the mix with a 1 or 2 or 3 level dip that you'd need to go much deeper into other classes to get (or not get at all). On top of that, as currently written Psi concentration doesn't conflict with Barbarian Rage, opening up all kinds of possibilities.

you do need to multiclass to get the absolute best of everything. but it's pretty much overkill.

the size thing is new. the rest, nothing that new, and frankly not that special. (and no, current grapple builds do not have a low success rate. if you took the current best grapple builds and removed the rules restricting it by size, i don't think there's much of anything in the monster manual they couldn't out-grapple).

[joaber]

True. Or with giant scorpion, or with giant toad. But with escape DCs ranging from 12 to 16 they're not going to grapple anything gargantuan for long.

You can use grapple action in wild shape, if make sense for that shape. Only the mos t dumb DM will say that a bear or a earth elemental can't grapple because isn't in they stat block

[tieren]

I don't know if its something you want to discuss on character creation, but I found tryign to make a character that Order was a difficult thing for me to visualize, still many concepts fit within each Order and some concepts could fit in a couple orders.

I found it simplest to start by looking at the 4 disciplines I would want to start with, then looking at which orders they fell in, and if 2 were from the same order that was the choice.

[Zene]

You can use grapple action in wild shape, if make sense for that shape. Only the mos t dumb DM will say that a bear or a earth elemental can't grapple because isn't in they stat block

Oh yeah totally, earth elemental especially is awesome for grappling. But even it can't grapple gargantuan opponents unless Enlarged. Those three beasts referenced above can grapple anything regardless of size (IIRC) due to the special effects in their stat blocks.

[SharkForce]

it is also worth noting that even if the opponent is highly likely to escape, it still costs them their action to even try, so it's still pretty worthwhile imo :)

[Waar]

The telepathy is not two-way as per Sage Advice unless explicitly stated. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/14/does-the-monster-manuals-description-of-how-telepathy-works-apply-to-the-mystics-telepathy/

That is a load of bull, the only place where telepathy is defined is page 9 of the monster manual. (incidentally the same is true for tremorsense, which the mystic could also have, and yet people would expect that ability to follow the only definition that is given).