I need a british translation

[Traab]

Ok, here is the deal, im reading a fanfic where one of the characters slips into some serious slang, puns, im not sure entirely, so I was hoping some of our UK types could translate this into american for me.

"Do you have to do that accent around me all the time?"
"Aye I do, even if it makes me sound a bit of a Berkeley Hunt." slipping into a hilariously bad glasgow accent before revealing a more cultured accent, verging on a drawl.
"Well try and tone it down, it ticks me off."
"Sure" he said with a total lack of sincerity "Now where are the apples and pears?"
"And I thought your brother was bad."
"No, just mad"


Thats basically it. Im not sure how much had extra meanings or not so I included all the speaking parts. Apparently there is "cockney rhyming slang" in there. I was told to translate at my own risk. I mean the apples and pears line obviously means SOMETHING, im just not sure what or if any of the rest meant anything.

[comicshorse]

It is indeed rhyming slang

'Apples and Pears' = Stairs

'Berkeley Hunt'= C**t.

'Ticked off' isn't rhyming slang it just means you're irritated

[oudeis]

I haven't gone to this site in a long, long time and am more than a little surprised it's still up:

http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk

[Ninja_Prawn]

As someone who works with both Scots and cockneys, I have to say that that entire exchange sounds extremely stilted and forced. You'd never hear a real person talking like that.

And yeah, the above translations are accurate.

[Traab]

As someone who works with both Scots and cockneys, I have to say that that entire exchange sounds extremely stilted and forced. You'd never hear a real person talking like that.

And yeah, the above translations are accurate.

Well to be fair, neither of the people doing it are scottish or cockney, he was just talking that way to annoy his coworker with the ludicrous number of british accents he could do. Earlier he says the guy sounds like someone dropped britain in a blender. And I did selectively edit some of what was written, leaving in the parts of dialogue that were needed, so that probably didnt help either.

[Rynjin]

It helps to say it out loud in your best (worst) accent yourself. Makes more sense than you'd expect.

[Aedilred]

One of the things about Cockney rhyming slang that often catches people out is the way it's constructed. You start off by rhyming a word with the thing you're referring to, then you make a phrase out of it, then, usually, you drop the part that actually rhymes.

So in the examples given, you'd more likely say "where are the apples?" rather than "where are the apples and pears?"

Sometimes the second word is changed too. For instance, "Berkeley Hunt", though not completely unknown in its longer forms, is most commonly used as "berk". Which thanks to widespread adoption has become a rather milder insult in its own right.

True CRS is pretty rare these days, as actual Cockneys are pretty rare these days. Some words are pretty well-known but almost nobody talks like that.

Further, the Cockney and Glasgow accents/dialects are so completely different both in vocabulary and elocution that trying to combine the two in the same sentence just wouldn't work at all.

With the above in mind, that exchange kind of looks to me like it was written by a non-Brit who had learned about Britishisms but hadn't really heard them in use.

[Aotrs Commander]

Sometimes the second word is changed too. For instance, "Berkeley Hunt", though not completely unknown in its longer forms, is most commonly used as "berk". Which thanks to widespread adoption has become a rather milder insult in its own right.

Apparently to the point the entymology is unfamiliar to most native speakers and has been for decades, since it's the sort of thing that appears on children's programmes thirty years ago...!

You learn sommat new every day, as they say.




One of the things about Cockney rhyming slang that often catches people out is the way it's constructed. You start off by rhyming a word with the thing you're referring to, then you make a phrase out of it, then, usually, you drop the part that actually rhymes.

So in the examples given, you'd more likely say "where are the apples?" rather than "where are the apples and pears?"

Or, to use one of my personally-frequently used aphorisms, "having a butcher's" - the origin of which I only know myself through the obscure chance of owning a Thunderbirds novel from the 1960s, in which Parker says at one point (when about to do some recon), he's going to to have a "butcher's hook" (look).



(It is worth noting is passing, of course, that some of us do talk a fair bit of aphorism-ening on purpose (and sometimes unconsciously), because it speaks to us on some ill-defined personal level, especially when chuntering to oneself; so the quote in the OP question in question may not be entirely inaccurate to the way wot some of us does talks like, mi'duck.)

[Traab]

One of the things about Cockney rhyming slang that often catches people out is the way it's constructed. You start off by rhyming a word with the thing you're referring to, then you make a phrase out of it, then, usually, you drop the part that actually rhymes.

So in the examples given, you'd more likely say "where are the apples?" rather than "where are the apples and pears?"

Sometimes the second word is changed too. For instance, "Berkeley Hunt", though not completely unknown in its longer forms, is most commonly used as "berk". Which thanks to widespread adoption has become a rather milder insult in its own right.

True CRS is pretty rare these days, as actual Cockneys are pretty rare these days. Some words are pretty well-known but almost nobody talks like that.

Further, the Cockney and Glasgow accents/dialects are so completely different both in vocabulary and elocution that trying to combine the two in the same sentence just wouldn't work at all.

With the above in mind, that exchange kind of looks to me like it was written by a non-Brit who had learned about Britishisms but hadn't really heard them in use.

The author is a brit, so maybe he put it in there as a way for non brits to be able to understand it? I mean apples and pears was bad enough, but learning you are supposed to leave off the rhyming word that should tell us what he is talking about? Da hek? Im sure there is something equally baffling in american english slang, but as ive grown up with it I cant think of any offhand. And the character speaking that way, just for clarity's sake, is regulus black, sirius (not so dead) brother from harry potter. He got out alive, and has spent the last 12 years or so learning to be secret agent man, going all over the nation. He intentionally speaks "like someone tossed britain in a blender" to his friend because he knows it ticks him off as he has learned how to blend in with anyone from any english walk of life.

The american equivalent would probably be speaking like a ninja turtle "Excellent! Bodacious! etc" while throwing in spanglish terms as well in the sentence. "My bodacious casa is your bodacious casa!" Sounds freaking awful and would probably drive you nuts listening to that drek in short order. Especially if you threw in a random accent while saying it like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R6_Chr2vro)

[Ninja_Prawn]

I mean apples and pears was bad enough, but learning you are supposed to leave off the rhyming word that should tell us what he is talking about? Da hek?

It actually sounds a lot better if you drop the rhyming parts (that's one of the things I found off-putting about your original excerpt). It just becomes a sort of code, and some of the more common ones are in wide enough use that it scans okay. I'd say most Brits would be familiar with dog (phone), trouble (wife), butcher's (look), plates (feet), barney (trouble; as in a bar fight), hank (starving) and probably a few others. Certainly China (mate). At least, I'd expect to be able to use them in conversation without being misunderstood.

[Comissar]

It actually sounds a lot better if you drop the rhyming parts (that's one of the things I found off-putting about your original excerpt). It just becomes a sort of code, and some of the more common ones are in wide wrought use that it scans okay. I'd say most Brits would be familiar with dog (phone), trouble (wife), butcher's (look), plates (feet), barney (trouble; as in a bar fight), hank (starving) and probably a few others. At least, I'd expect to be able to use them in conversation without being misunderstood.

For reference, the full versions of the above (save hank, I'm not familiar with that one) are Dog and Bone, Trouble and Strife, Butcher's Hook (already mentioned), Plates of Meat, and Barney Rubble. There's also Ball of Chalk (walk) and Frog and Toad (Road) that I can think of off the top of my head.

[Khedrac]

One thing worth adding, is that "Berkley Hunt" may not mean what you think it does.
Yes, the extremely rude term is what it is a slang replacement for, but all it actually means is "a fool".

I too am a Brit who did not know that that was the derivation of "berk", but I keep a compact OED on my desk so I looked them both up. The derivation of "berk" is indeed the CRS term, but that actual meaning of both is simply "a fool". Yes the source of the meaning is very rude, but it is not actually that severe an insult.

Well, well, well, I just found out something about English from an American website, whatever next?

[Ninja_Prawn]

(save hank, I'm not familiar with that one)

Hank Marvin? My sister uses it all the time (she's doing the 5-2 diet). It was in a big ad campaign recently (people kept turning into Hank Marvin when they were hungry), but I had heard it before then.

[Comissar]

Hank Marvin? My sister uses it all the time (she's doing the 5-2 diet). It was in a big ad campaign recently (people kept turning into Hank Marvin when they were hungry), but I had heard it before then.

Can honestly say it's not one I've heard before, guess I missed the ad campaign?

[Mith]

Another good one is "Chinas" = "Mates" from "China Plates"

[Aotrs Commander]

Another good one is "Chinas" = "Mates" from "China Plates"

I am finding fascinating how many of these I have only heard in the shortened non-rhyming version all my life and unlife and simpy accepted without having the slightest clue to their origins. The magic of context.

[Comissar]

I am finding fascinating how many of these I have only heard in the shortened non-rhyming version all my life and unlife and simpy accepted without having the slightest clue to their origins. The magic of context.

Ditto. China and Butcher's, while obvious in hindsight in their full versions, were ones that I just kind of understood without knowing the origin.

[oudeis]

Isn't it Berkshire Hunt?

[Khedrac]

Isn't it Berkshire Hunt?

Not according to the dictionary, Berkeley Hunt is correct. No, it's not something I had heard of either - I think that shows its age.

And that's the other thing about real cockney rhyming slang - it is in constant evolution with whatever phrases are current, so terms like "china" and "Berkeley" are probably no longer in use by real CRS speakers.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Not according to the dictionary, Berkeley Hunt is correct. No, it's not something I had heard of either - I think that shows its age.

And that's the other thing about real cockney rhyming slang - it is in constant evolution with whatever phrases are current, so terms like "china" and "Berkeley" are probably no longer in use by real CRS speakers.

I get the impression that 'China' got dropped by real cockneys because it became too popular with outsiders. I remember when I was in school everyone was using it, and none of those kids were born in London.

[Ebon_Drake]

Not according to the dictionary, Berkeley Hunt is correct. No, it's not something I had heard of either - I think that shows its age.

And that's the other thing about real cockney rhyming slang - it is in constant evolution with whatever phrases are current, so terms like "china" and "Berkeley" are probably no longer in use by real CRS speakers.

"James Blunt" was an amusing recent alternative to "Berkeley Hunt", although I can't vouch for how authentically Cockney that was and it's probably fallen out of use a bit now that the singer's not so well-known. Before that, there was also "Sir Anthony Blunt".

On the topic of familiar rhyming slang that people don't even realise is rhyming slang: telling porkies = pork pies = lies.

[Aedilred]

Apparently to the point the entymology is unfamiliar to most native speakers and has been for decades, since it's the sort of thing that appears on children's programmes thirty years ago...!
Yeah, I think there are a few words like that, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.


(It is worth noting is passing, of course, that some of us do talk a fair bit of aphorism-ening on purpose (and sometimes unconsciously), because it speaks to us on some ill-defined personal level, especially when chuntering to oneself; so the quote in the OP question in question may not be entirely inaccurate to the way wot some of us does talks like, mi'duck.)
I have definitely made a point of incorporating a couple of words of west country origin into my vocabulary. The one I get to wheel out most is "grockle", I think; occasionally I'm brave enough to use "bunnyhopper", though sadly I don't often get the chance to use "mangelwurzel" in context.


The author is a brit, so maybe he put it in there as a way for non brits to be able to understand it? I mean apples and pears was bad enough, but learning you are supposed to leave off the rhyming word that should tell us what he is talking about? Da hek? Im sure there is something equally baffling in american english slang, but as ive grown up with it I cant think of any offhand. And the character speaking that way, just for clarity's sake, is regulus black, sirius (not so dead) brother from harry potter. He got out alive, and has spent the last 12 years or so learning to be secret agent man, going all over the nation. He intentionally speaks "like someone tossed britain in a blender" to his friend because he knows it ticks him off as he has learned how to blend in with anyone from any english walk of life.

The american equivalent would probably be speaking like a ninja turtle "Excellent! Bodacious! etc" while throwing in spanglish terms as well in the sentence. "My bodacious casa is your bodacious casa!" Sounds freaking awful and would probably drive you nuts listening to that drek in short order. Especially if you threw in a random accent while saying it like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R6_Chr2vro)
That is pretty much what it sounds like to us, yes, although if anything even worse. But it's not annoying in the way that the persistent inaccuracies set your teeth on edge, as seems to be the intention, but more in the sense of someone putting their face an inch from your own and blowing raspberries. It doesn't come across as clever, just stupid.

As implied earlier, unintelligibility is part of the point. Rhyming slang is barely one step up from a thieves' cant, and was a sort of private dialect. The words were derived from rhymes, but they weren't meant to be easily traced back the other way, at least not without a bit of head-scratching. Once people started to write it down, word got out, and some of the slang proved popular enough that it's been incorporated into standard English slang. I think some of the older terms have been abandoned as a result of their popularity among those who still speak the slang in an everyday context.

But it's in real decline anyway. The old working-class communities that made up the East End and neighbouring areas - where Cockneys traditionally lived - have been broken up by the decline of industry and urban gentrification. True Cockneys are a dying breed, and, increasingly scattered and fragmented, their slang is dying with them. Those words that migrated across to common use will probably stay there but the majority of it will likely remain a matter of linguo-historic curiosity only.

On which note, Regulus Black almost certainly isn't a Cockney, and even if Grimmauld Place is in the East End (more likely the West End, I'd have thought), he's a pureblood wizard who wouldn't have had any contact with (Muggle) Cockneys growing up anyway. Which if we were inclined to be forgiving might explain why he sounds like someone who's never heard CRS spoken, even if he's doing it partly on purpose.

"Britain in a blender" I can cope with, at least in principle. But it doesn't even sound like that. Muddled accents are a thing, but switching between two such different ones in the middle of a sentence isn't going to have the desired effect: most likely neither will be identifiable and it'll just sound like nothing. The double-dip in the Cockney well also indicates an over-reliance on one lexicon if that's the intention: there are plenty of other weird and wonderful regional dialects to choose from.

I think what I (and at least some of the other Brits in the thread) are trying to say is that we understand what the intention is, even if we don't understand why that's the intention. It's just that that intention hasn't been executed very well.


"James Blunt" was an amusing recent alternative to "Berkeley Hunt", although I can't vouch for how authentically Cockney that was and it's probably fallen out of use a bit now that the singer's not so well-known. Before that, there was also "Sir Anthony Blunt".
Poor James Blunt. People are so mean about him. Are they not aware he saved the world (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050)?

[Aotrs Commander]

Poor James Blunt. People are so mean about him. Are they not aware he saved the world (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050)?

Apparently not.

You learn summat new every day.

Well done, that man.

[Beleriphon]

As someone who works with both Scots and cockneys, I have to say that that entire exchange sounds extremely stilted and forced. You'd never hear a real person talking like that.

And yeah, the above translations are accurate.

Unless, they're intentionally try to irritate each other. I've met some Britons with a very heavy cockney accent that can and do speak without using rhyming slang, but when they want to I know they're saying words in English but that's about as far as I can get. For a point of comparison go to Newfoundland in Canada, and find somebody from one of the small villages with a thick Newfiew accent and see how much you understand. They're saying normal English words but its barmy as all get out.

[Keltest]

Unless, they're intentionally try to irritate each other. I've met some Britons with a very heavy cockney accent that can and do speak without using rhyming slang, but when they want to I know they're saying words in English but that's about as far as I can get. For a point of comparison go to Newfoundland in Canada, and find somebody from one of the small villages with a thick Newfiew accent and see how much you understand. They're saying normal English words but its barmy as all get out.

Pennsylvania has some... interesting... ones too.

"Go down to the crick to get some wudder so you can red up the winders."

Id wager most people could understand it in text (mostly), but in speech it can be nigh incomprehensible to someone who isn't fluent.

[Aotrs Commander]

Pennsylvania has some... interesting... ones too.

"Go down to the crick to get some wudder so you can red up the winders."

Id wager most people could understand it in text (mostly), but in speech it can be nigh incomprehensible to someone who isn't fluent.

It took me a couple of reads (it's late) but yeah, I got the gist easily enough.

[Zalabim]

Hank Marvin? My sister uses it all the time (she's doing the 5-2 diet). It was in a big ad campaign recently (people kept turning into Hank Marvin when they were hungry), but I had heard it before then.

Never seen the commerical, or heard of Hank, but I have heard starvin Marvin, and I have heard of 'hankering.' Huh. These things do get around.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Never seen the commerical, or heard of Hank, but I have heard starvin Marvin, and I have heard of 'hankering.' Huh. These things do get around.

I think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Q0747iN-I) is one of the ads, though I seem to recall there being other ones in the same vein (and not featuring school kids). A whole campaign of Hank Marvins.

[Scarlet Knight]

Funny commercial!

I learned something today: I was sure you were all going to say : "Silly Americans! People speak like that only in the movies, not real life!"

[Khedrac]

I mentioned this thread to my borther and he came out with another relatively common British English term that few people know comes form a Cockney Rhyming Slang term - "Raspberry" (or in full "blowing a raspberry") for the noise one can make blowing through closed lips - it is short for "blowing a raspberry tart" referring to what it sounds like!

What I don't know is if the USA (or Canada or Australia or New Zealand) use the same term for that action...

EDit: I looked up "hankering" (online sicne my dictionary is at work) - it looks to come from the dutch not the CRS - sounds like that may be a back-formation

[Keltest]

I mentioned this thread to my borther and he came out with another relatively common British English term that few people know comes form a Cockney Rhyming Slang term - "Raspberry" (or in full "blowing a raspberry") for the noise one can make blowing through closed lips - it is short for "blowing a raspberry tart" referring to what it sounds like!

What I don't know is if the USA (or Canada or Australia or New Zealand) use the same term for that action...

is that where that term comes from?

[Excession]

What I don't know is if the USA (or Canada or Australia or New Zealand) use the same term for that action...

It's used in New Zealand. I didn't know where it came from though.

[An Enemy Spy]

Raspberries are definitely a thing in the US. I always thought it was named because you stick your tongue out while doing it, like a red berry.

[Traab]

Ok, so I may have come across some more. This author likes to blend monty python into his stories, so im not sure if this is gibberish or if its a dialect with actual meaning, or even a direct ripoff of a sketch.


"Oh it was quite the flap. Those balley sprogs pranged their kites into drink. The squabbling bleeder went to shaftie the clanger when some clot came in and got us up by our blackouts. A number of my oppos ended up going for a Burton."

Then later

"Bunch of monkeys on the ceiling gents. Grab your egg and fork and lets get the bacon delivered!"

"You know, balley ten-penney ones dropping in the custard! Ummm, Charlie Choppers tucking a handful!"

winding up with

"Crikey! Time to bail out lads! Balley Bones is coming right up the blue end! Cabbage crates coming over the briney!"

[comicshorse]

That's mostly just the Monty Python World War 2 pilots sketch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rKYL0tW-Ek&list=RD5rKYL0tW-Ek#t=76

[Traab]

Ok yeah I figured it was a sketch, but im also assuming those words MEAN something. I was kinda hoping for a translation lol.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Ok yeah I figured it was a sketch, but im also assuming those words MEAN something. I was kinda hoping for a translation lol.

The words do have meaning, but it's mostly RAF slang that I, for one, am not totally clued up on. I'll have a go:

Flap: situation of panic; in this case probably a fight.
Sprogs: usually 'children', I'm going to assume it's intended to mean 'Germans' here.
Pranged: crashed. This one is still in general use.
Kite: aeroplane.
Drink: sea. Again, this is in common use today.
Squabbling bleeder: must be 'squardon leader', but I've never heard that one before.
Shaftie the clanger: ...no idea, sorry.
Clot: again, not familiar with this one, but it's probably an insulting name for the Germans.
Blackouts: I've not heard it; it sounds fake, but if it's not I'd assume it means six o'clock; tail. Obviously The Blackout was the set of rules concerning light at night (Axis bombers used ground-based lights to aim their attacks), so the word might have ended up as a slang term too.
Oppos: opponents. I have seen this one in WWII writing. Quite a lot, actually.
Going for a Burton: MIA

Most of the rest is opaque to me...

[Traab]

Ah ok, thanks. I wasnt sure if it was another round of that cockney rhyming slang or not. Its possible its a bit of both, but at least now I can somewhat figure it out.

[Eldan]

I've read bleeder as a general all-purpose insult before. A clot is a fool or a prankster, my dictionary tells me. Bally means "bizarre" or "weird". "Charlie chopper" only brings up the vietnam war. The briney, again, is the sea.

[Ebon_Drake]

Ok, so I may have come across some more. This author likes to blend monty python into his stories, so im not sure if this is gibberish or if its a dialect with actual meaning, or even a direct ripoff of a sketch.


"Oh it was quite the flap. Those balley sprogs pranged their kites into drink. The squabbling bleeder went to shaftie the clanger when some clot came in and got us up by our blackouts. A number of my oppos ended up going for a Burton."

Then later

"Bunch of monkeys on the ceiling gents. Grab your egg and fork and lets get the bacon delivered!"

"You know, balley ten-penney ones dropping in the custard! Ummm, Charlie Choppers tucking a handful!"

winding up with

"Crikey! Time to bail out lads! Balley Bones is coming right up the blue end! Cabbage crates coming over the briney!"
My best attempt:

Flap = commotion
Bally = bloody, as in bloody hell. Kind of like saying "flipping" instead of the F-bomb.
Sprogs = normally children, although I agree that doesn't really make sense in context. I suppose he could be calling them children as an insult.
Pranged = crashed
Kites = planes
Drink = sea
Squabbling = arguing
Bleeder = normally something like idiot. I am inclined to think that Ninja_Prawn is right though in saying "Squabbling Bleeder" is meant as a rhyme for Squadron Leader here.
Shaftie = shaft would be equivalent to screw or maybe shank, so I'd guess it's a variant of that
Clanger = a clanger would normally be a big mistake or faux pas, as in "dropping a clanger". I've not heard it used to refer to a person, but I suppose it might be used to mean someone who had made a mistake. Or it could be something else entirely!
Clot = idiot
blackouts = ???
Oppos = not heard it myself, but opponents sounds right
Burton = ???

Monkeys = possibly just means "idiots", but could have a more specific meaning here.
Ceiling = assuming the context is still RAF-related, I'd guess sky?
Gents = gentlemen. Probably obvious, but just in case...
Egg and fork = ???
Bacon = I think it can mean money as in "bringing home the bacon", but might just be playing off of egg and fork - whatever that meant. I suppose "grab your egg and fork and let's get the bacon delivered!" could be a colourful way of saying "let's get to work!"
Ten-penny = probably big/long as a reference to the nail size. I guess maybe referring to bullets? Although ten-a-penny would mean "common" in the same way as dime-a-dozen so it might depend on context.
Custard = ???
Tucking = I can only think of using this in the phrase "tucking in" which means eating, possibly in a greedy way. From the context given, I guess it means that Charlie Chopper is getting shot a lot.

Crikey = a euphemism for Christ, used as a general exclamation
Bail out = eject
Lads = boys
Blue End = ???
Cabbage Crates = ???
Briney = I'd assume that means the sea, as in "the briny deep"

[Aotrs Commander]

My best attempt:
Oppos = not heard it myself, but opponents sounds right

Nah. That one is common usage - I use it myself all the time, actually. Not sure of the etymology, but the meaning is friend/associate/collegue as in "I was having a conflab1 with my oppos down the club last Monday week2 and we decided we need to replace all the [wargames] boards."



Edit: a google and the Oxford dictionaries tells me the etymology is 1930s for "opposite number."



1Informal discussion

1A week before the previous Monday

[Ebon_Drake]

Nah. That one is common usage - I use it myself all the time, actually. Not sure of the etymology, but the meaning is friend/associate/collegue as in "I was having a conflab1 with my oppos down the club last Monday week2 and we decided we need to replace all the [wargames] boards."



Edit: a google and the Oxford dictionaries tells me the etymology is 1930s for "opposite number."



1Informal discussion

1A week before the previous Monday

We must move in very different circles.

[Traab]

Hmm, so then,

"You know, balley ten-penney ones dropping in the custard! Ummm, Charlie Choppers tucking a handful!"

Would mean, "They are dropping big bombs on us." The sets of sentences are usually the guy finding another way to phrase the same statement. So charlie choppers is probably just slang for enemy air coming in with a large amount of weapons. Thats just what I can figure going by the context of the skit.

Did some searching, and cabbage cases were a brand of heavy duty luggage back in the 70s. So may be more slang for dropping large metallic objects (bombs) after they crossed the channel.

[Aotrs Commander]

We must move in very different circles.

Possibly, I am broad Derbyshire and have a nasty tendancy to acquire and spout aphorisms anyway (which I picked up from mi' Dad).




From contect "sprogs," probably means inexperienced flyers] crashed into the sea.

Traab, are you sure it was "shaftie" and not "shufftie" (which would be having a look (or "having a Butcher's" as I often say))? Still not 100% of clangers, but that might make marginal sense...?

[Traab]

Possibly, I am broad Derbyshire and have a nasty tendancy to acquire and spout aphorisms anyway (which I picked up from mi' Dad).




From contect "sprogs," probably means inexperienced flyers] crashed into the sea.

Traab, are you sure it was "shaftie" and not "shufftie" (which would be having a look (or "having a Butcher's" as I often say))? Still not 100% of clangers, but that might make marginal sense...?

Ok, this is strange. I just looked up the script of the actual sketch and its way different.

Bally Jerry, pranged his kite right in the how's-your-father; hairy blighter, dicky-birded, feathered back on his sammy, took a waspy, flipped over on his Betty Harpers and caught his can in the Bertie.

No shafties or shuffties at all, so unless they said it a different way (highly possible since they do tend to redo their sketches over the decades) I have no idea what the fanfic author was going for.

[veti]

A modern author, unless they've taken their research very seriously (and frankly, riffing on Monty Python does not augur well in that dimension), is very likely to have made mistakes in imitating 1940s RAF slang.

"Blackouts" - blackout curtains were used, by those who could afford them, to allow them to use lights indoors at night without violating the blackout rules. So I would hypothesise that "blackouts" = "curtains", and "curtains" (from the theatrical meaning) means "finished" (usually in the sense of "dead").

"Monkeys on the ceiling" - "ceiling" in RAF context means "high altitude". "Monkeys" could be a reference to "brass monkey", meaning (allegedly, although doubtfully) a triangular tray used on 17th-century ships to store cannonballs - hence a triangular shape, or (in this context) three planes in a V-formation. Alternatively, a "monkey" is £500, so might conceivably refer to a 500 lb bomb (or similar).

"Cabbage crates" - again, in context, is a derogatory way of talking about relatively large, unwieldy aircraft. I.e., if you're a fighter pilot, bombers.

[DemonicAngel]

I can't really contribute in any shape, way or form to this wonderful discussion, but as somebody who's english is second language and mostly knows just american slang, this has opened a whole new world to me

keep them coming, lads.

[Zalabim]

The "egg and fork" could be some reference to the yoke used to steer a plane. So it would mean "grab the wheel" if they were in a car.

[Keltest]

The next time some brit tells me that Americans are the worst thing to happen to the English Language, I'm pointing them at this thread.

[Aotrs Commander]

The next time some brit tells me that Americans are the worst thing to happen to the English Language, I'm pointing them at this thread.

Why? Aphorisms and colloqualisms are the Best Thing about the English language!

[Keltest]

Why? Aphorisms and colloqualisms are the Best Thing about the English language!

I'm not even totally convinced this is English anymore.

[factotum]

There's actually an entire Wikipedia article on RAF slang:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_slang

It confirms that "sprog" is a term for a freshly trained pilot, but it isn't so illuminating as to what an "egg and fork" is.

[Pilum]

Don't think anyone else has touched it and it's fairly obvious from context, but "going for a Burton" is usually that something's gone awry in a fairly big way. So in this case they're probably dead (or at least crashed and badly hurt), BUT it's also used in this sort of scenario: "yeah, we had planned on going out tonight but our Jimmy started spewing everywhere just after tea, so that went for a Burton."

My aunties also use it (sometimes, it's not constant) if someone falls down quite heavily. Helped with me and my sister as kids for distraction, and our own little 'uns!

Disclosure: they're Liverpool born and bred, and born before and during the war. Age may be relevant, but I don't think that location is. I have no idea what the derivation might be; Burton's as a shop made/makes cheap suits, so It could be a reference to what you'd be buried in.

Cockney's get plenty of attention (in the same way that all Americans are from New York, the Deep South or California) but they're by no means the only dialect that's spread idioms through the country, though courtesy of old films treating ANYONE who wasnt middle-class or higher as if they were born within the sound of Bow Bells (unless they were a token Scot, Welsh or Irish), it has spread further and for longer.

[Peelee]

The next time some brit tells me that Americans are the worst thing to happen to the English Language, I'm pointing them at this thread.

That's like a crappy butcher saying the crappy cook ruined the meat.

[Traab]

There is a reason why English is otherwise known as Thieves Cant. We stole from every other language on earth, and crammed it all into a nearly undecipherable ball of mush. Every nation that speaks it has their own mysterious dialect.

Ok it really isnt, I just like the sound of that. :p

[Aedilred]

Why? Aphorisms and colloqualisms are the Best Thing about the English language!


I'm not even totally convinced this is English anymore.

No problem at all with slang for the most part but the way it's being used in the examples by the OP is teeth-achingly painful, like nails on a blackboard. As such, while most of the expressions in themselves are fine, and even being used properly would also be fine, I'm inclined to agree with Keltest when taking the situation as a whole.

I have no idea what the derivation might be; Burton's as a shop made/makes cheap suits, so It could be a reference to what you'd be buried in.

I have to wonder whether it's related to Richard Burton and his legendary propensity to cause calamity through drinking and womanising, or whether that's a coincidence.

There is a reason why English is otherwise known as Thieves Cant.
Thieves' Cant is its own thing, although I think it's largely extinct now.

[Spacewolf]

There is a reason why English is otherwise known as Thieves Cant. We stole from every other language on earth, and crammed it all into a nearly undecipherable ball of mush. Every nation that speaks it has their own mysterious dialect.

Ok it really isnt, I just like the sound of that. :p

Cant is it's own thing, a better term for English as a whole would be a Mongrel tongue.

[Traab]

Cant is it's own thing, a better term for English as a whole would be a Mongrel tongue.

Bah, I prefer to call it a distillation of the best parts of every language into one refined whole. After all, I wouldnt speak it if it wasnt the best.

[Pilum]

I have to wonder whether it's related to Richard Burton and his legendary propensity to cause calamity through drinking and womanising, or whether that's a coincidence.


The latter, I'd say. Everything has to start somewhere of course, but that doesn't quite 'feel' right...

[Ninja_Prawn]

It confirms that "sprog" is a term for a freshly trained pilot

That makes sense, given how vulnerable rookie pilots were (a 'sprog' is normally a very young child; less than a year old). I think I read somewhere that you were 15 times more likely to die in your first hour of combat than the next ten put together? That's why some of the most successful RAF pilots in the Battle of Britain were the Polish veterans who'd flown in defence of their homeland in 1939.

[comicshorse]

And just to show there's life in an old joke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8

[Mith]

I assumed "blackouts" meaning backside in the sense of "sticking it where the sun don't shine."

[Ninja_Prawn]

And just to show there's life in an old joke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8

*deadpan* Standard, innit?

:smallbiggrin: