Getting the devoted spirit stance aura of perfect order on a non-initiator

[Gusmo]

Aura of perfect order has the very powerful ability of allowing you to take 11 on any d20 roll once per round (awesome for UMD, contact other plane, and tons of other things). But it's a level 6 devoted spirit stance. Thaneus nicely sums out how big of a pain it is acquire for non-initiators here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21805985&postcount=11). Are there any shenanigans that can make it easier to get this stance easier to obtain?

[Uncle Pine]

Legacy Champion can be used to gain +1.5 IL/level if you use it to advance an initiator class. I'm AFB atm, but it could be worth to investigate whether it can also be used to gain +0.5*2 IL/level if you use it to advance a non-initiator class (I'm dubious, but you never know).

[Anthrowhale]

Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) plausibly allow access at L20-.

[Dagroth]

Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) plausibly allow access at L20-.

Bloodlines would only increase your full Initiator level if you had at least 1 full initiator class level to start with.

[Jack_Simth]

Aura of perfect order has the very powerful ability of allowing you to take 11 on any d20 roll once per round (awesome for UMD, contact other plane, and tons of other things). But it's a level 6 devoted spirit stance. Thaneus nicely sums out how big of a pain it is acquire for non-initiators here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21805985&postcount=11). Are there any shenanigans that can make it easier to get this stance easier to obtain?
Get more hit dice, maybe? The Bard's Inspire Greatness?

[Zancloufer]

You still need to burn three feats to get the stance if you don't take any initiator levels. Also decent odds being that you would need IL 11 by level 18 to take it pre-epic as that's where your feats land. Still need 4 full initiator levels minimum to hit that window in time.

Might honestly be easier to dip or use something like RKV. It is a solid ability but you are jumping through too many hoops IMHO to get it while trying to avoid ToB material as much as possible.

[Jack_Simth]

You still need to burn three feats to get the stance if you don't take any initiator levels. Also decent odds being that you would need IL 11 by level 18 to take it pre-epic as that's where your feats land. Still need 4 full initiator levels minimum to hit that window in time.

Might honestly be easier to dip or use something like RKV. It is a solid ability but you are jumping through too many hoops IMHO to get it while trying to avoid ToB material as much as possible.

*Considers*
*Checks*
Huh. Looks like you can do that. A Cleric-5 taking the appropriate skill ranks, Martial Study, and Martial Stance can qualify without any levels in base initiator classes. Similarly, a Sorcerer or Wizard could go into Jade Pheonix Mage with Martial Study twice and Martial Stance. You still lose a caster level, but it does increase your odds of getting what you want.

[Zancloufer]

*Considers*
*Checks*
Huh. Looks like you can do that. A Cleric-5 taking the appropriate skill ranks, Martial Study, and Martial Stance can qualify without any levels in base initiator classes. Similarly, a Sorcerer or Wizard could go into Jade Pheonix Mage with Martial Study twice and Martial Stance. You still lose a caster level, but it does increase your odds of getting what you want.

Alternately if your so worried about caster level loss a Lawful Evil Crusader 5/Ur Priest 2/RKV 10 gets you the stance in question and full casting with 9ths by level 17. Spell Focus [Evil] and Iron will are easy enough to pick up having no real pre-requists.

I mean we are pretty much a Divine Gish at this point, but it does get you full casting and the stance you want really easily and in a straight forward manner with a playable build.

[Gusmo]

Hm, could polymorphing into a dusk giant somehow work? Would the extra hit dice progress initiator level, and assuming you got to the stance via feats, would you lose access to it once the polymorph effect wore off?

[Dagroth]

You can't be an Ur-Priest and become a RKV... at least by RAW. Even if you accept an adaptation for a different game world/deity, Ur-Priest wouldn't qualify.

[torrasque666]

You can't be an Ur-Priest and become a RKV... at least by RAW. Even if you accept an adaptation for a different game world/deity, Ur-Priest wouldn't qualify.
It qualifies by RAW. Nothing in the Ur-Priest RAW states you can't worship a deity at least. It's fluff certainly disqualifies it, but by RAW nothing does. It just states that you can't be a cleric and take the class. Seriously, find me the line in the rules text that states that you must not worship a deity.

[shaikujin]

Aura of perfect order has the very powerful ability of allowing you to take 11 on any d20 roll once per round (awesome for UMD, contact other plane, and tons of other things). But it's a level 6 devoted spirit stance. Thaneus nicely sums out how big of a pain it is acquire for non-initiators here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21805985&postcount=11). Are there any shenanigans that can make it easier to get this stance easier to obtain?

Amulet of Devoted Spirit (see the Crown of White Raven section in ToB). Scholar version grants the knowledge of a 6th level manuever.

ToB pg5, A stance is a special type of maneuver.

Prereq of the maneuver still needs to be met. The prereq section for Aura of Perfect Aura says 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers (of any level).

So, pick up 2 martial study feats to get 2 level 1 Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and 1 martial stance feat to allow you to use a stance.

In general, it's more efficient to just get a single level of martial class rather than to blow 3 feats though.

[Uncle Pine]

Amulet of Devoted Spirit (see the Crown of White Raven section in ToB). Scholar version grants the knowledge of a 6th level manuever.

ToB pg5, A stance is a special type of maneuver.

Prereq of the maneuver still needs to be met. The prereq section for Aura of Perfect Aura says 2 Devoted Spirit maneuvers (of any level).

So, pick up 2 martial study feats to get 2 level 1 Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and 1 martial stance feat to allow you to use a stance.

In general, it's more efficient to just get a single level of martial class rather than to blow 3 feats though.

The prerequisites for a maneuver include minimum IL to learn it, so you'll still need IL 11 to get the stance through the amulet.

[Esprit15]

It qualifies by RAW. Nothing in the Ur-Priest RAW states you can't worship a deity at least. It's fluff certainly disqualifies it, but by RAW nothing does. It just states that you can't be a cleric and take the class. Seriously, find me the line in the rules text that states that you must not worship a deity.

It also requires that one be taught by another Ur-priest, which does force fluff back into this.

[Gusmo]

The prerequisites for a maneuver include minimum IL to learn it, so you'll still need IL 11 to get the stance through the amulet.

This sounds like a job for UMD. I think this solution wins.

[weckar]

It's not a requirement for using the item, it's part of the effect :smallconfused:

Ability to ignore part of an item's effect was never part of UMD... Otherwise I'd be UMD pushing immovable rods.

[shaikujin]

This sounds like a job for UMD. I think this solution wins.

Depending on your table's interpretation (and power level), you can discuss with your table/DM regarding whether IL is part of the prerequisite of a maneuver.

The prerequite of a maneuver, is defined on page 44 (that entire section describes what Level, Prerequisite, Initiation Action, Range, Target, Duration means).



In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, you must meet a certain set of requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know.


That means the prereqs are specifically referring to the "certain set of requirements" listed in each maneuver's Prereq section. Class and Level requirements are something in addition to the prereqs.

Prereq section of Aura of Perfect Order is just "Prerequisite: Two Devoted Spirit maneuvers".

[Dagroth]

I have to agree that, though it says "class and level requirements", it would be just like a Wand of Fireballs. One doesn't have to be 5th level to UMD it, so why would one have to be Initiator level 11 to UMD an Amulet of Devoted Spirit?

[Uncle Pine]

I have to agree that, though it says "class and level requirements", it would be just like a Wand of Fireballs. One doesn't have to be 5th level to UMD it, so why would one have to be Initiator level 11 to UMD an Amulet of Devoted Spirit?

Because wands can be used by anyone with a spell on its list, while an amulet of devoted spirit lets you use a maneuver if you satisfy the prerequisites (bar class) to learn that maneuver.

[Jack_Simth]

Because wands can be used by anyone with a spell on its list, while an amulet of devoted spirit lets you use a maneuver if you satisfy the prerequisites (bar class) to learn that maneuver.
Look at the "Emulate a Class Feature" option of Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm). Full initiator level is a class feature. So if you need Initiator Level 11 to use a particular item, then you need to roll a 31 on a UMD check. You can probably use the same method to activate the item as though you had the other requirements, although at a much lower DC (it only takes one level of Crusader to know two maneuvers).

[Gusmo]

It's not a requirement for using the item, it's part of the effect :smallconfused:

Ability to ignore part of an item's effect was never part of UMD... Otherwise I'd be UMD pushing immovable rods.

Hm, this is an interesting point. I'll need to examine this more closely when I have time.