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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next [Need help / feedback] Skill Points for 5E



Mocpages
2017-03-14, 06:50 PM
Preface:
One of the guys who has been playing for some time but never really DMed has decided to give it a show, with a sort of multiplanar WW1 (Machine guns, artillery, demons, elementals, and so forth). So, he has decided for various reasons (Primarily dogfighting skills for air combat) that we need skills ranks and such for 5e.

Actual question:
What would be the gameplay implications of replacing the 5e skills system with the one from 3.x? ASIs would remain the same, but players would earn skill points each level and so forth.

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-14, 07:08 PM
Preface:
One of the guys who has been playing for some time but never really DMed has decided to give it a show, with a sort of multiplanar WW1 (Machine guns, artillery, demons, elementals, and so forth). So, he has decided for various reasons (Primarily dogfighting skills for air combat) that we need skills ranks and such for 5e.

Actual question:
What would be the gameplay implications of replacing the 5e skills system with the one from 3.x? ASIs would remain the same, but players would earn skill points each level and so forth.It should be feasible, but you'll need to modify many features to work with this.

Instead of classes selecting 2-to-4 skills (with +2 proficiency each) at 1st level, you might give them 4-to-8 skill points (and impose a rule that no skill can have more ranks higher than the PC's proficiency bonus).
A Rogue's Expertise would allow them to push skills as far as twice their proficiency bonus.
A Bard's Jack of All Trades would let them treat skills as though they had ranks equal to half their proficiency (rounded down) until they ranks higher than that.

Simple enough! Now to handle leveling up.
A character's proficiency bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels, meaning all skills "gain one rank" every 4 levels in the current system. If we're using skill points, that should still be possible, but players should be free to put their points elsewhere if they choose. Every four levels, a character must acquire a number of skill points equal to the number they acquired at 1st level divided by two (or equal to the number of skills they would gain at first level, in the official rules).
For a Rogue, this is 4 skill points every 4 levels (corresponding to the 4 skills they acquire at 1st level in core, or the 8 points / 2 they acquire in our variant rules. One skill per level! Easy!
For Fighters and any other class that starts with two skills (aka 4 points), this is 2 skill points every 4 levels, or one every other level. Odd, but okay.
For Bards and other classes that start with three skills (aka 6 points), this is three points over four levels. There is no straightward way to distribute these.
It would be easiest to grant one point per level. this would leave Rogues the skill monkeys they are, but also make non-Rogues slightly more monkeyish, if you're fine with that.

Mocpages
2017-03-14, 07:19 PM
It should be feasible, but you'll need to modify many features to work with this.

Instead of classes selecting 2-to-4 skills (with +2 proficiency each) at 1st level, you might give them 4-to-8 skill points (and impose a rule that no skill can have more ranks higher than the PC's proficiency bonus).
A Rogue's Expertise would allow them to push skills as far as twice their proficiency bonus.
A Bard's Jack of All Trades would let them treat skills as though they had ranks equal to half their proficiency (rounded down) until they ranks higher than that.

Simple enough! Now to handle leveling up.
A character's proficiency bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels, meaning all skills "gain one rank" every 4 levels in the current system. If we're using skill points, that should still be possible, but players should be free to put their points elsewhere if they choose. Every four levels, a character must acquire a number of skill points equal to the number they acquired at 1st level divided by two (or equal to the number of skills they would gain at first level, in the official rules).
For a Rogue, this is 4 skill points every 4 levels (corresponding to the 4 skills they acquire at 1st level in core, or the 8 points / 2 they acquire in our variant rules. One skill per level! Easy!
For Fighters and any other class that starts with two skills (aka 4 points), this is 2 skill points every 4 levels, or one every other level. Odd, but okay.
For Bards and other classes that start with three skills (aka 6 points), this is three points over four levels. There is no straightward way to distribute these.
It would be easiest to grant one point per level. this would leave Rogues the skill monkeys they are, but also make non-Rogues slightly more monkeyish, if you're fine with that.

I like that, but I feel like Expertise ought to double the points you have in it, as well as subsequent points, with no maximum, and some feat or similar should increase the maximum. That way other classes can super-specialize as well as rogues and Lore Bards.
Ooh, or what if you can invest past your prof but with diminishing returns (like cross-class skills)?

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-14, 08:15 PM
I like that, but I feel like Expertise ought to double the points you have in it, as well as subsequent points, with no maximum, and some feat or similar should increase the maximum. That way other classes can super-specialize as well as rogues and Lore Bards.No. Bounded accuracy. 5e is predicated on a system where no adventuring task is totally trivial. Only as they approach the peak of their career can an adventurer overcome DC 10 (common) obstacles with 100% confidence, and at no point in their career can an adventurer overcome DC 15 (specialized) obstacles with any kind of certainty. This means that no matter how high your level is, 1st-level threats like goblins, pitfalls and poisons remain threats in some way shape or form. Just like the greatest soldier in the real world could be killed by a clever, lucky or supported civilian, the greatest adventurer 5e can never truly shrug off early threats.

To represent this, no d20 roll has modifier higher than 11 (+5 ability, +6 proficiency) without special features (such as Expertise) which themselves are limited. A roll of 1 + 11 = 12, meaning an adventurer can finally succeed at easy tasks effortlessly, but will still fail specialized tasks occasionally. A roll of 1 + 17 = 18, meaning an adventurer with expertise can actually succeed at specialized obstacles effortlessly, but still cannot confront daunting obstacles (DC 20) or the rare obstacles of higher DC with such certainty. A DC 30 obstacle is the highest an adventurer can ever hope to overcome without expertise or magical assistance, because it is the highest a d20 + 11 can hit without a critical hit.

But in the system you describe, not only can a level 1 Rogue have +11 Stealth rolls (+8 ranks, +3 Dexterity) and achieve the nigh-impossible DC 30 task right off the bat, but gaining one rank per level, they could gain a +30 modifier and succeed at this task literally 100% of the time. The fundamental premise of 5e's design—thematic and mechanical—is lost.

Mocpages
2017-03-14, 08:23 PM
Yeah, you're totally right. This is exactly why I run such things past smart internet people :P

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-14, 08:29 PM
I neglected to comment, but buying save proficiency with skill points (or a similar points system) could be interesting! And raising the price for saves outside of your class would make sense (or at the very least, restricting access to them. Maybe they can't have more ranks than half your proficiency, or they can't have ranks higher than their respective ability modifiers?)

Seldriss
2017-03-15, 07:37 AM
Interesting option.
And very good analysis, Galactic :)

Grod_The_Giant
2017-03-15, 09:06 AM
A Rogue's Expertise would allow them to push skills as far as twice their proficiency bonus.
Not so; it should instead grant a bonus equal to your currently invested ranks, or some such effect. That way you actually get the bonus without having to pay double price.

I'd also suggest handing out skill points in block chunks, rather than spreading them out over the course of three or four levels; that keeps things a little simpler and matches the original math better. Otherwise, you've pretty much nailed it, I think.

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-15, 10:36 AM
Not so; it should instead grant a bonus equal to your currently invested ranks, or some such effect. That way you actually get the bonus without having to pay double price.Well, no. Along with expertise the Rogue could acquire extra skill points.


I'd also suggest handing out skill points in block chunks, rather than spreading them out over the course of three or four levels; that keeps things a little simpler and matches the original math better. Good idea!

Grod_The_Giant
2017-03-15, 08:55 PM
Well, no. Along with expertise the Rogue could acquire extra skill points.
I mean, I guess that would work, but it seems like kind of an awkward way to approach the situation, and the ability doesn't wind up working quite like it did before. (Instead of "pick a skill to get a bigger bonus," it's "get a bigger bonus or get more different skills"). Which isn't necessarily bad, but for things like this I prefer to try to minimize unnecessary changes.

RATHSQUATCH
2017-03-15, 11:24 PM
Have you considered maybe doing a point "leveling" system similar to Elder Scrolls?

Maybe have rules for successful uses of a skill and each time it is used successfully, having a percentage chance the skill increases. You could even do this with combat if you wanted to, break weapons into weapon groups and have those level as you use them. Just some food for thought.

GalacticAxekick
2017-03-15, 11:35 PM
Have you considered maybe doing a point "leveling" system similar to Elder Scrolls?

Maybe have rules for successful uses of a skill and each time it is used successfully, having a percentage chance the skill increases. You could even do this with combat if you wanted to, break weapons into weapon groups and have those level as you use them. Just some food for thought.I think 5e tries to avoid that kind of bookkeeping. It's convenient in Elder Scrolls where you handle the practice and a computer runs the math, but in 5e this would basically mean tracking another set of experience points for each skill/weapon (and potentially having very high level skills at very low character levels) or keeping track of percentage-change-for-skill increase every time a skill is rolled (which is itself tedious and introduces an element of luck I don't think many people want in their builds).

Gaining conventional EXP from skill challenges wouldn't be unreasonable, but I don't think 5e is designed to go much further than that.

RATHSQUATCH
2017-03-15, 11:58 PM
I think 5e tries to avoid that kind of bookkeeping. It's convenient in Elder Scrolls where you handle the practice and a computer runs the math, but in 5e this would basically mean tracking another set of experience points for each skill/weapon (and potentially having very high level skills at very low character levels) or keeping track of percentage-change-for-skill increase every time a skill is rolled (which is itself tedious and introduces an element of luck I don't think many people want in their builds).

Gaining conventional EXP from skill challenges wouldn't be unreasonable, but I don't think 5e is designed to go much further than that.

You would have to cap the skill levels of course and the DM could roll, but I often play online and have the ability to do multiple rolls, so that usually not an issue. In an in-person game where you have to roll every die, I completely understand your point.