The Build Tearer Thread

[flappeercraft]

So on the year and a bit I have been here I have seen a lot of threads regarding making builds and powerful ones that are supposed to be real powerful. So what I suggest we do with this thread, is create specific counters. Here one can post any build they want for the whole purpose of having someone creating a specific counter to it. In addition I will put name builds here for the challenge to tear those down to. Also teams such as Team Solar are fair game for this thread to tear down. Any tearing down can be done with a build, a combo, feat selections or anything along those lines. An extra challenge here is to try creating counters as low level as possible but for the sake of this lets avoid using things like Pun Pun or the Omniscifier. If you have any build suggestions to tear apart just reply. Variants such as Taint or Possession are allowed.

The names in Blue are those that have not been torn apart (In this thread) yet
Those in Green are those that have been torn apart here and will have the name of the one who did it beside the name in parenthesis

Builds/Teams to Tear apart:
Stutter Caster
Standard Ubercharger (Bad wolf)
ExFighter
Clockwork Wizard
1d2 Crusader (JNAproductions, Bucky)
Team Solar
Team Primeval
Emerald Legion (Anthrowhale)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281601-The-Stutter-caster
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201638-Team-Primeval
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-(Archiving)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201776-d2-Crusader
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques

[JNAProductions]

D2 Crusader? Make yourself immune to damage. Diehard and Hide Life, for instance.

[Bucky]

A d2 Crusader's offense can be neutralized by an Enlarge Person or Shrink Person effect - anything that changes his damage die. Then we need just enough muscle to deal with a mid-level Crusader.

[Buufreak]

Other threads have proven a commoner 1 can beat the sorc, simply out of being a rules legal build.

[JNAProductions]

Oh, yeah, Dread Sorcerer King? Not worth putting up there.

Also, neat idea, Bucky! I never thought of that!

[Bad Wolf]

For the Ubercharger:

1: Cast Time Stop
2: Cast Mage's Disjunction
3: Cast Grease
4: Cast Summon Swarm
5: Wait for them to slowly bleed to death.

[weckar]

Care to reference sources for these builds? One or two of them I cannot place by name...

[flappeercraft]

Care to reference sources for these builds? One or two of them I cannot place by name...

I referenced those I found, I will keep seraching later today for the remaining ones. Although since all Dread sorcerer threads are deleted we will have to go on memory on that one.

[Daefos]

I referenced those I found, I will keep seraching later today for the remaining ones. Although since all Dread sorcerer threads are deleted we will have to go on memory on that one.

I stopped reading the threads after a while so perhaps I'm misinformed, but as I recall Dread Sorcerer King never really worked in the first place. All you really have to do to counter it is stand back and watch it implode.

[Grand Arbiter]

Don't poke the Tarrasque lest it find its way here.
I suggest removing the relevant build from the list and saying no more about it.

[ben-zayb]

Any of the legal builds above could be outraced by a Symbiotic Human Commoner, using Lilitu's Item Use(Ex) (FC1) and Shaedling's Shadow Gossamer. ECL2, possibly ECL1 with LA buyoff and level drain.

For this one's setup, anyone who has no access to spellcasting, manifesting, any amount of wealth to be spent, any minionmancy, any deal with the devil, the Serpent Kingdoms sourcebook, or any Wish/Miracle effects, should still be able to use it. The only caveat is to be the unfortunate plaything of a Hagunemnon. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21796124&postcount=137) build utilizes and explains the symbiotic trick, while this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19590450&postcount=1) showcase utilizes and explains the Shadow Gossamer trick. Both of these should also outrace/beat any of those.


As I said in a previous thread, how can this specific showcase outdo the presented legal* builds is left as an exercise to the reader without resorting. Suffice, to say, it can pretty much replicate the builds themselves, at bare minimum.




*Not saying it can't beat certain unnamed builds, but I'm not gonna touch that topic with any pole of any length.

[Anthrowhale]

Here is one list of builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258580-Famous-optimized-character-builds).

There are couple difficulties that you are sure to run into.

1) Most of the builds are not fully specified since the point of the build is illustrating a capability rather than playing. This is kind of rough to beat though, because maybe there is some specification of the build which would not be beaten?
2) There are rules issues. Are setting specific rules allowed? How do you settle rules disputes? They can get pretty confusing. What happens when an incorporeal undead casts antimagic field? Or when Transcend Mortality ends on a Tarrasque?

W.r.t. specific builds, this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21672622&postcount=60) can defeat just about anything that is playable by:
(a) finding the target anywhere, even penetrating mindblank.
(b) wishport inside of them (incidentally disabling all of the target's magic via AMF).
(c) kill really dead.
All as one action.

[daremetoidareyo]

Any spell based build can be totally neutralized by a cloistered cleric/wizard/mystic theurge with heighten spell, divine defiance, elven spell lore/soultouched spellshaping. Pair those feats with dispel magic and maxed spellcraft skill. Fill all of your slots with heightened dispel magics as counterspells. If you face off against a dweomerkeeper, make sure that you are a max ranked official in the knowledge domain organization and nullify their supernatural spell ability with a knowledge check. Just make sure your friends are bigger than their friends and the rest is easy. Use divine defiance on the turns that you want to cast a spell at him instead of using one of your numerous prepared dispel magics.

[One Step Two]

Other threads have proven a commoner 1 can beat the sorc, simply out of being a rules legal build.

iunderstoodthatreference.jpg

But that's hardly a fair comparison, those builds tend to be an ego-trip to try and show off, as opposed to Char-Op or Theory-Op, which at least bring some new tricks to the table.

[Gruftzwerg]

another Idea to beat the Ubercharger:
Due to my last build, I stepped upon the "Shadow Cloak". For only 5,500g you can teleport 10ft as immediate action. As long as you are aware of the Ubercharger, you will have at least 2 rounds of time to beat him without any risk at all. As soon as he initiates the movement of his charge, sidestep with the immediate teleport and watch him run into nothing.

[icefractal]

Standard CoDzilla
Standard God Wizard
Standard BatmanThese aren't going to work for this thread, because they aren't builds, they're concepts, and there's no agreement what the concrete details would be. Someone could figure out how to tear down a Wizard, but then the reply would just be "Oh, that's not the spells you'd prepare, you'd have X, Y, and Z instead and then that method wouldn't work."

Even for the Stutter Caster and Clockwork Wizard, only the method for casting spells is determined, not the selection of spells prepared. Although for the latter, figuring out how to deal with the time stopping could be done first as a prerequisite to any method for defeating it.

[Bucky]

A standard CoDzilla loses head-to-head to a cheater of Mystra, right?

[Gruftzwerg]

These aren't going to work for this thread, because they aren't builds, they're concepts, and there's no agreement what the concrete details would be. Someone could figure out how to tear down a Wizard, but then the reply would just be "Oh, that's not the spells you'd prepare, you'd have X, Y, and Z instead and then that method wouldn't work."

Even for the Stutter Caster and Clockwork Wizard, only the method for casting spells is determined, not the selection of spells prepared. Although for the latter, figuring out how to deal with the time stopping could be done first as a prerequisite to any method for defeating it.

yeah always the same problem when someone tries to beat a wizard. Which spells will he prepare. And most of the times the answer will be just a question back: "I use spell X and gather intel about my enemy and than..." or "my contingent spells will proc and bring my ass into safety where I will be in my ultra slowed own domain and prepare into eternity to find a solution to the given situation.."

btw, I guess BoBaFeat falls into the Pun-Pun category? Otherwise I would pull it out ^^

[The_Iron_Lord]

I think the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques) should be up there...though so far, the only ways I know of to beat them is to use a Sphere of Annihilation or a dubious RAWish interpretation of the Pyroclastic Dragons's disintegrating breath...

[flappeercraft]

I think the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101587-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Emerald-Legion-Mass-Producing-Ikea-Tarrasques) should be up there...though so far, the only ways I know of to beat them is to use a Sphere of Annihilation or a dubious RAWish interpretation of the Pyroclastic Dragons's disintegrating breath...

True, forgot about those so I'll add them asap.

Although wouldn't what it defeats it be that Spark of Life does not make them living and therefore allowing them to breed Ghedens, the only thing that Spark of Life does is make them vulnerable to things tht would not normally affect them but says nothing about having become actually living and able to breed.

[The_Iron_Lord]

True, forgot about those so I'll add them asap.

Although wouldn't what it defeats it be that Spark of Life does not make them living and therefore allowing them to breed Ghedens, the only thing that Spark of Life does is make them vulnerable to things tht would not normally affect them but says nothing about having become actually living and able to breed.

At that point it's irrelevant, since as far as I know there are no official rules for breeding; thus, an undead can breed freely by RAW.

[Buufreak]

At that point it's irrelevant, since as far as I know there are no official rules for breeding; thus, an undead can breed freely by RAW.

And now we are getting into that book territory. And we don't talk about that book.

[Anthrowhale]

The Emerald Legion is vulnerable to a Cleric 5/Dweomerkeeper 10 casting Poison Spell[Trollbane] Supernatural[Harm] twice.

[Amphetryon]

Is Algernon of the White Lilies still famous enough to qualify?

[flappeercraft]

Is Algernon of the White Lilies still famous enough to qualify?

There is no requirement. Just give suggestions and I'll add it. Heck, if you want post your own build so we can tear it down here and can improve it based on that. Also I can't find Algernon of the White Lilies so if you had a link or something that would be helpful.