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sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 10:34 PM
Alright, I'm new here, but I wanted to post a thread looking for some opinions.

We're setting up to start at level 1 and run to epic. As it stands right now, the party needs a frontliner or a healer. I've got ideas for the two.

Frontliner: Warblade from Tome of Battle, maybe add in a dash of Bloodstorm Blade.

Healer: Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple with Healing Blast.

Now, between the two, I'm honestly not sure which I'd play. Those two roles need to be filled, and I've not played hardly any casters. Warblades I've done quite a bit, and with a fair bit of success.

From here, I'd like to ask for your thoughts, and thanks in advance.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-07-25, 10:43 PM
Well, personally, I'd go with healer. It seems cool, and it's something new to try.

horseboy
2007-07-25, 10:43 PM
Play a druid, be both :smallwink:

Diggorian
2007-07-25, 10:45 PM
Well since you dont play casters often option 2 might be a nice change.

I'd go cleric first cause of the bigger HD and you'll want some healing at the first levels especially.

sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 10:45 PM
Well, personally, I'd go with healer. It seems cool, and it's something new to try.

That's the biggest thing going for the healer build. That, combined with invocations and divine spells is pretty nice.

'Course, ToB characters are nice as well.

sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 10:46 PM
Play a druid, be both :smallwink:

No, no, please, no.

Jack Mann
2007-07-25, 10:58 PM
Heh. Wanting to avoid being too powerful? Good on you. It's good to avoid overshadowing your buddies.

Yeah, what the heck. Try the healer. Warlocks on their own are pretty useless, but with the eldritch disciple (and I'm assuming you're starting high enough level you're beginning as an eldritch disciple) could make it pretty useful, especially since you can basically spam healing. Start as a cleric 4/warlock 1/eldritch disciple X. Continue with cleric at level 16. You're only out two levels of spells, so you'll get 9th level spells at level 19 (late in the game, but better than never). Ask the DM if you can use fractional BAB and saves.

Vortling
2007-07-25, 11:00 PM
Play the cleric. In a pinch you can be the backup frontliner if you prepare the right spells and it's something new and exciting for you. Double win!

sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 11:10 PM
Heh. Wanting to avoid being too powerful? Good on you. It's good to avoid overshadowing your buddies.

Well, the eldritch disciple I can see that with, but warblades? I think they're great for melee guys.



Yeah, what the heck. Try the healer. Warlocks on their own are pretty useless, but with the eldritch disciple (and I'm assuming you're starting high enough level you're beginning as an eldritch disciple) could make it pretty useful, especially since you can basically spam healing. Start as a cleric 4/warlock 1/eldritch disciple X. Continue with cleric at level 16. You're only out two levels of spells, so you'll get 9th level spells at level 19 (late in the game, but better than never). Ask the DM if you can use fractional BAB and saves.

I'm of the opinion that warlocks are fine if you opt for crowd control instead of all-out damage dealing. Baleful Utterance as a lesser invocation can do quite a bit to intimidate enemies.


Play the cleric. In a pinch you can be the backup frontliner if you prepare the right spells and it's something new and exciting for you. Double win!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't heavy armor cause ASF for warlock invocations?

Jimp
2007-07-25, 11:20 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't heavy armor cause ASF for warlock invocations?

Take the Armored Caster feat (name may be wrong) in Complete Arcane for the Warlock side then use mithral fullplate

brian c
2007-07-25, 11:21 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't heavy armor cause ASF for warlock invocations?

I'm too lazy to check right now, but Warlocks do get to cast in light armor, right? Take Armored Caster (I think that's the name?) the feat that increases your cast-able armor level by one. Then you can wear mithral fullplate and be fine with it.

Diggorian
2007-07-25, 11:24 PM
The feat is Battle Caster from Complete Arcane, it'll let ya wear medium armor withotu ASF.

If I'm not mistaken, there may be a feat that lets you heal at range.

sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 11:25 PM
The feat is Battle Caster from Complete Arcane, it'll let ya wear medium armor withotu ASF.

If I'm not mistaken, there may be a feat that lets you heal at range.

Healing Ray as a divine gift in Eldritch Disciple turns the Eldritch Blast into positive energy that will heal allies as per standard damage.

Diggorian
2007-07-25, 11:36 PM
Healing Ray as a divine gift in Eldritch Disciple turns the Eldritch Blast into positive energy that will heal allies as per standard damage.

Nice, but it wasnt that.

Reach spell from Complete Divine lets ya change any touch spell (like Cure) into a 30ft ranged touch attack. doestn require anything either.

sombrastewart
2007-07-25, 11:39 PM
Nice, but it wasnt that.

Reach spell from Complete Divine lets ya change any touch spell (like Cure) into a 30ft ranged touch attack. doestn require anything either.

Honestly, the idea is to not have to spontaneously burn stuff into healing. That's really the point of the Eldritch Disciple bit.

FoxHush
2007-07-25, 11:42 PM
Nice, but it wasnt that.

Reach spell from Complete Divine lets ya change any touch spell (like Cure) into a 30ft ranged touch attack. doestn require anything either.

Hmm That just really helped me make my undead killing machine.


Now anyway to make undead take sneakattack dmg without gravestrike?

Jack Mann
2007-07-25, 11:42 PM
Warblade is nice, and unlike a fighter is useful at higher levels, but it's still not as good a combat-specialist as a cleric or a druid.

Warlocks just have trouble contributing significantly a party's success. Their battlefield control is pretty pitiful compared to a wizards, and while they can do consistent damage, their round-to-round damage is too low to help the party. They do better solo, since they can let combats drag out, but in a party situation, you need to get a battle over with quickly. The warlock's endurance doesn't help much then.

EDIT: There's an augment crystal in the Magic Items Compendium that allows you to sneak attack undead.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-25, 11:45 PM
If you're taking Eldritch Disciple, take the Eldritch Glaive invocation from Dragon Magic--it combines well with cleric buffs, and especially with Healing Blast; you'll get a lot more healing out of it that way. It's especially nice if you have Divine Power up, i.e. right after a fight--Healing Blast plus the Eldritch Glaive plus full BAB for two or three attacks makes for quite a bit of healing per turning attempt used!

nerulean
2007-07-26, 08:45 AM
Every time I come up with a cool idea, someone else posts the thread just before I can! I'm looking at warlock1/cleric4/eldritch disciple (doubt we'll get past lvl15) for an upcoming campaign. Still, I guess that means I'm well placed to help you out.

One thing you'll want to watch is that your healing ray won't give you masses of healing, since its dependent on your turn attempts each day. Admittedly, the warlock charisma will help with that, but you're probably not looking at more than seven or eight times a day without the extra turning feat (and trust me, you'll be hard-pushed for feats).

Say you're at 12th level with the above build, that's giving you 8 lots of 4d6 healing a day, averaging out at about 14HP healed. You can grab maximise SLA for 24HP three times a day, totalling at, on average, 142HP of healing.I did some simple working for a lvl12 with 8 turns, since that's where I think I'll get to. Using divine metamagic with those same attempts to give you two maximised cure crits per day, along with two normal ones, for an average total of 140HP, not to mention two spare turns for healing blasts at 14 each, unless they're maximised too, for 168/188HP respectively.

The tastiest thing you can get for a healer is Mastery of Day and Night from the players guide to Eberron, which automatically maximise all your cures without any level or casting time increase. It reqiuires maximise as a prereq which will otherwise not be of vast use to you, but your party will love you forever. Those same four cure crits will now heal 168HP, with all your turning attempts left. If you've got maximise SLA as well (or can convince your DM to let you use that as the prereq for MoDaN) then you can add the 142 from healing blasts for 310HP of healing every day. Even the most unlucky, idiotic adventuring parties can't get into that much trouble, can they? Never mind, even if they do, all the rest of your cures are spontaneously maximised as well!

I also second the motion for Eldritch Glaive. At lower levels, you lose the weapon damage that Hideous Blow would give you in exchange for hitting touch AC, being able to make multiple attacks per round, and being able to make AoOs as if with a reach weapon. You're so MAD that you wouldn't have the strength to take advantage of using a weapon anyway, even if you did manage to hit normal AC.

Exil3dbyrd
2007-07-26, 08:56 AM
Have you thought about crusader for a frontliner with a little healing thrown in?

Darrin
2007-07-26, 08:59 AM
We're setting up to start at level 1 and run to epic. As it stands right now, the party needs a frontliner or a healer. I've got ideas for the two.


Why not both? If you want to tank and heal at the same time, play a Crusader.

Seriously, the Crusader is hands-down the best tank in the game. It can dish out punishment like any of the other Martial Adepts, and can simultaneously heal himself and others without wasting standard actions on spellcasting.

With a dip into Cleric, you qualify for Ruby Knight Vindicator, which includes full BAB, decent caster progression, and Divine Recovery+Divine Impetus+Extra Turning = all sorts of awesome.

MeklorIlavator
2007-07-26, 09:12 AM
Actually, depending on the campaign, you might be ridiculous as the eldrich disciple. The healing is very good, but until we got a new player, my horribly unoptimised buiuld was doing the most damage, absorbing the most(the biggest things he's taken so far: 2 flame strikes in a row(I saved), and in another encounter a Harm delivered by a Cleric/Duskblade). And I haven't really been using most of my spells, except when converting to cure spells. Eldrich Glaive is awesome, especially when combined with full-attacks/divine power/healing blast. What exactly is the rest of your group doing? Because based on their classes, you could be overpowered, or you could be right on their level.

My build currently is:
cleric4/warlock1/eldritch disciple6
Feats: Weapon Finess, Improved Intiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Practiced spellcaster(Cleric)
Invocations, Least:Eldrich Glaive, Eldrich Spear, Baleful Utterance
Invocations, Lesser: Fell Flight
Domains:Protection, Travel



For your Information, the utterances where chosen in about 5 minutes, because I had to change my character due to another player. I would suggest that combination, or either of the archery feats.

sombrastewart
2007-07-26, 09:41 AM
I suppose I should throw in the caveats for these characters.

Unless it's in the core books or one of the Completes, it needs to go on a case by case basis. The GM already approved these two concepts, but things like Eldritch Glaive are not approved.

However, I didn't realize you had to burn turn attempts to use your divine gifts... Looking more like I'll be playing the warrior.

As for the Crusader, honestly, I'm not a big fan. I like how straightforward the warblade is, I don't want to be doing things that will stretch out combat even more (sometimes combat can DRAG with our group). They're already edgy about me using ToB (I'm the only one who does) and how horrendous some of the manuevers can come off.

The Mormegil
2007-07-26, 10:10 AM
Hmm That just really helped me make my undead killing machine.


Now anyway to make undead take sneakattack dmg without gravestrike?

Greater Trudeath Crystal on your weapon (plus Spell Storing or the like). It's MIC, 10kgp.

sombrastewart
2007-07-26, 10:54 AM
The thought has also occurred to me, how well would a scout/warlock stack? Use skirmish with something like Fell Flight and Eldritch Blast and your damage increases quite a bit. Has anyone ever tried this?

Kurobara
2007-07-26, 11:31 AM
I actually was thinking the other day about Eldrithc Disciple myself, and realized that it gets much better stat synergy if you go Warlock 1/Favored Soul 8/Sacred Exorcist 1/Eldritch Disciple 10. The downside is that it pushes actually entering Eldritch Disciple way off to 11 due to the requirements for Sacred Exorcist. =/

Also, depending on whether or not you're willing to give up one level of divine casting and two of invocations/eldritch blast to get CHA to saves, Replace Eldritch Disciple 10 above with Prestige Paladin 2/Eldritch Disciple 8 (your DM would have to allow Prestige Paladin for the paladin alignment variations, though - any of them other than the PHB's LG paladin would work for the class in general, but for the healer-y bits of Eldritch Disciple, you'd pretty much have to be a Paladin of Freedom.)

Though Darrin is also right about the values of Crusaders and Ruby Knight Vindicators. I think using Paladin instead of the typical Cleric for entry might be a better idea though - RKVs need a lot of turning attempts to be useful, which means they need high CHA, and Paladins get more out of CHA than Clerics do. In spite of Paladin being a fairly MAD class, I think using Paladin instead of Cleric actually cuts down on the MAD in this case. Plus the caster levels lost in there hurt less when you're not a full caster to begin with.

(I seem to be on a Paladin trip lately. Perhaps I should get myself looked at... :smalltongue: )

(Also, apologies if I got a bit long-winded. This thread just happened to touch on a lot of builds I'd been thinking about lately myself.)

sombrastewart
2007-07-26, 11:44 AM
No, it's fine. I appreciate all the input people have put in this thread.

Sadly, the problem is that the Eldritch Disciple build doesn't shake out the way I thought it did because I misread the thing about Divine Gifts. So, really, I'm contemplating going as a blaster caster instead. The party will probably have a duskblade, so the all-out NEED for a frontliner won't be left wholly empty.

As for the Crusader crowd, really, I enjoy the Iron Heart school too much to give it up. Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven. I like to use a mix of Stone Dragon, Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, myself.