Cold Iron, Fey, and 5e

[blelliot]

I've been working on a particularly nasty Grandmother Green Hag from scratch, and was interested in giving her the Regeneration trait. I was looking for damage types to cause the trait to not function, and I settled on Radiant (because radiant is representative of pure life force, and this Hag is representative of the fetid disease, virulent poison, and disgusting rot of the swamp) and was figuring the other to be cold iron, because she is Fey. Except, I can find no precedence of this in 5e. Am I missing something? A particular passage in one of the rulebooks?
I understand that as DM, I can make it to where only a flaming bag of dog excrement on a stick would cause her Regeneration to falter if I so chose, but I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into balance if Cold Iron was done away with as a concept for this edition.
Has anyone else used Cold Iron in their 5e games? Can anyone of you in the playground help me out? Thank you in advance!

[Ninja_Prawn]

There is no such thing as 'Cold Iron' in the 5e RAW. The only special weapon materials in the core rules are silver, adamantine and 'magical'.

You can houserule whatever you like, of course. I can't see that introducing a new type of iron would cause any problems/conflicts.


Has anyone else used Cold Iron in their 5e games?

In my games, some fey creatures suffer the poisoned condition if they touch any iron or iron alloy, but that's about it. I don't implement it as a damage type, because the whole idea of 'cold iron' doesn't sit right with me. I always felt it was more of a turn of phrase ("taste my cold steel, you worms!") than a real thing - where the 'cold' part meant 'cruel' or 'unfeeling'.

[hymer]

There is no such thing as 'Cold Iron' in the 5e RAW. The only special weapon materials in the core rules are silver, adamantine and 'magical'.

I believe this is quite correct. If I were in your shoes, OP, I'd just use adamantine.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Cold Iron in 4e simply referred to iron weapons that had been worked/hammered raw and never melted/heated/forged.

[Joe the Rat]

In my games, some fey creatures suffer the poisoned condition if they touch any iron or iron alloy, but that's about it. I don't implement it as a damage type, because the whole idea of 'cold iron' doesn't sit right with me. I always felt it was more of a turn of phrase ("taste my cold steel, you worms!") than a real thing - where the 'cold' part meant 'cruel' or 'unfeeling'.Ah, the Dresden Interpretation. That's what I go with, with the stipulation that it is unenchanted iron. Your magic sword is no big deal, but that old mundane boot dagger makes them curl away like wisps of fog in the morning sun.

Any fey weapons will still be of silver or bronze. Just because they aren't vulnerable to something doesn't mean it's not unpleasant.

[Knaight]

You could just have it be iron and steel in general, on the basis of how "cold iron" was basically the "hot lead" of its time.

[zeek0]

I once tried to determine what cold iron even is. You can't hammer iron raw (too hard), but it seems cold iron refers to iron that is smithed using relatively low temperatures (later smithing practices allows for higher temps). Smithing iron at lower temperatures gives it a mottled, burnished quality.

I'd imagine that the reason for folklore concerning cold iron is because of facination with anything old and rare. But thats just speculation.

Cold iron is a funny thing to be weak to, because it's a step back - not a step forward like silvered weapons.

In game, you can make whatever monsters you want weak to cold iron, by I would make cold iron rare somehow. Perhaps it's really star iron, from a meteorite. Or it needs to be prayed over, or the metal comes from the body of an ancient golem that guards the cave just ice yonder. Then the players can go questing for it.

[Unoriginal]

I don't implement it as a damage type, because the whole idea of 'cold iron' doesn't sit right with me. I always felt it was more of a turn of phrase ("taste my cold steel, you worms!") than a real thing - where the 'cold' part meant 'cruel' or 'unfeeling'.


I once tried to determine what cold iron even is. You can't hammer iron raw (too hard), but it seems cold iron refers to iron that is smithed using relatively low temperatures (later smithing practices allows for higher temps). Smithing iron at lower temperatures gives it a mottled, burnished quality.


"Cold iron" is just an expression, because metal tends to feel cool to the touch. Like one would say "hot lead" to talk about bullets.

"Gold is for the mistress -- silver for the maid --
Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade."
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8CkSw4hVog)

[Nerdynick]

Yeah, the idea of iron that isn't forged is utter fantasy, unless you're using magic to shape the ore. But I kinda always got the impression that cold iron damaged fey and demons because it was symbolic of the natural world or some such. The more you worked it, the less natural it became (and magically extracting and shaping something probably counts as working it).

Personally, I like the idea of the unenchanted weapons bypassing it. Alternatively, the old 3.5 Iron Kingdoms rpg features alternative damage reductions, with blessed silver hurting undead and lodestone hurting fey. You could fashion bullets out of lodestone with their tech level, but even in high fantasy, you can incorporate a magnetic rock into a club. Or you could just rule magnetic fields weaken them and invent mechanics along those lines.

[Knaight]

Yeah, the idea of iron that isn't forged is utter fantasy, unless you're using magic to shape the ore. But I kinda always got the impression that cold iron damaged fey and demons because it was symbolic of the natural world or some such. The more you worked it, the less natural it became (and magically extracting and shaping something probably counts as working it).

That really doesn't work for fey - the iron thing originally comes from the opposite, where fey were considered part of the natural world and it's the symbolism that iron gets from being a synthetic material (in the state it's used) that led to it being seen as functional to begin with.

[N810]

Wrought Iron Blades.
http://www.bigrockforge.com/category/knives-2/swords-and-historical/

[Typhon]

I say just bring it back. Very few creatures were even affected by cold forged iron weapons, mostly demons and devils, so I don't see it being a huge deal. Most of the special materials used in previous editions had very limited use for specific creatures. The most common being silver for lycanthropes, certain undead, and others that escape my mind at the moment. Cold forged iron for a evil fey that may be tainted with demon blood works especially well.

[pwykersotz]

Fascinating, I had bought into the myth that cold forging was a thing. It's good to have that corrected.

In regards to the OP, I see no problem with inserting a special weapon type to overcome regeneration. As long as it's not a common thing to come up with a type of the week to stymie the players anyway, which it doesn't sound like you are trying to do.

[Typhon]

I once tried to determine what cold iron even is. You can't hammer iron raw (too hard), but it seems cold iron refers to iron that is smithed using relatively low temperatures (later smithing practices allows for higher temps). Smithing iron at lower temperatures gives it a mottled, burnished quality.

I'd imagine that the reason for folklore concerning cold iron is because of facination with anything old and rare. But thats just speculation.

Cold iron is a funny thing to be weak to, because it's a step back - not a step forward like silvered weapons.

In game, you can make whatever monsters you want weak to cold iron, by I would make cold iron rare somehow. Perhaps it's really star iron, from a meteorite. Or it needs to be prayed over, or the metal comes from the body of an ancient golem that guards the cave just ice yonder. Then the players can go questing for it.

One could just treat getting cold iron forged weapons as trying to find someone who still knows the ancient techniques. Technology moves forward and things get forgotten. 80 years ago people had more knowledge about where every country in the world is and now I can barely point out where countries I have visited are located on a globe. Maybe they need to find a sect of forgotten hunters/warrriors who may or may not be willing to help them by supplying weapons, for a price.

[BurgerBeast]

Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts includes monsters that are resistant to S, P, B weapons that aren't cold iron.

I ran a home-brewed fey wild campaign that made use of cold-iron weapons and resistances.

[Naanomi]

Folklore about *iron* is a thing, to be sure; it is the big sign of 'modern VS ancient' technology in a lot of folklore, and a lot of 'old things' have an aversion to it in some way. I generally interpret the 'cold iron' in roleplaying games to mean 'iron without being meaningfully modified into steel' (which is how Changling: the Dreaming handled it); but as mentioned above 5e doesn't care anymore mechanically

[Temperjoke]

I've always liked the idea that "Cold Iron" was actually just regular iron that could have been forged on a more basic level (general heating and hammering), as opposed to steel, since steel is created through additional processing.

[blelliot]

Here is the big bad hag, in all her glory.

Grandmother Agatha Greenteeth, Medium Fey, NE
AC: 20; Hit Points:185 (16d8+112); Speed: 30 ft.
Str 27 Dex 18 Con 24 Int 19 Wis 21 Cha 21
Saves: Dex +10, Int +10, Wis +11, Charisma +11
Skills: Arcana +10, Deception +17, Investigation +10, History +10, Nature +10, Perception +17, Religion +10, Stealth +10 (+20 while using Pass Without Trace)
Damage Immunities: Poison, Psychic, Necrotic; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage from Nonmagical weapons that aren't Cold Iron
Condition Immunities: Charmed, Frightened, Diseased, Poisoned
Damage Resistances: Acid, Cold, Fire, Thunder
Senses: Blindsight 20ft, Darkvision 120 ft, Passive Perception 32
Languages: Abyssal, Bullywug, Common, Draconic, Giant, Infernal, Narfelli, Netherese
Challenge 19
Legendary Resistance (3/Day): If Grandmother fails a saving throw, she can choose to succeed instead.
Amphibious: Grandmother can breathe air and water.
Horrific Appearance: Any humanoid that starts its turn within 30 feet of Grandmother and can see her true form must make a DC 19 Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is Frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, with disadvantage if Grandmother is within line of sight, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to Granmother's Horrific Appearance for the next 24 hours. Unless the target is surprised or the revelation of the hag's true form is sudden, the target can avert its eyes and avoid making the initial saving throw. Until the start of its next turn, a creature that averts its eyes has disadvantage on Attack rolls against her.
Innate Spellcasting: Grandmother's Innate Spellcasting ability is Charisma (Spell Attack +11, Spell Save DC 19). She can innately cast the following spells, requiring no material components:
At will: Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance, Commune, Commune with Nature, Contact Other Plane, Detect Thoughts, Find Traps, Glibness, Modify Memory, Nondetection, Scrying, Sending
3/Day: Blight, Contagion, Dispel Magic, Mind Blank, Pass Without Trace, Transport Via Plants
1/Day: Feeblemind, Plane Shift, Storm of Vengeance
Constant Magic: Due to her magical power, Grandmother is always under the effect of the following spells when encountered (included in her statistics)- Glibness, Mind Blank, Nondetection.
Keen Senses: Grandmother has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing, sight, or smell.
Magic Weapons: Grandmother's weapon attacks are magical.
Mimicry: Grandmother can mimic animal sounds and humanoid voices. A creature can tell they are imitations with a DC 19 Wisdom (Insight) check.
Regeneration: Grandmother regains 20 hit points at the start of her turn. If she takes damage from a Wrought Iron weapon, this trait doesn't function at the start of her next turn.
Stench: While in her true form, any creature other than a hag that starts its turn within 10 feet of Grandmother must succeed on a DC 21 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the start of the creature's next turn. On a successful saving throw, the creature is immune to Grandmother's stench for 24 hours.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: Grandmother attacks with her Bite and Claws, or uses Blinding Sludge Twice
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +14 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (1d8+8) Piercing damage plus 10 (3d6) Necrotic damage, and Grandmother regains hit points equal to half of the Necrotic damage dealt.
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +14 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 17 (2d8+8) Slashing damage plus 20 (6d6) Necrotic damage, and Grandmother regains hit points equal to half of the Necrotic damage dealt.
Blinding Sludge. Ranged Spell Attack: +11 to hit, range 30ft, one target. Hit:22 (5d8) Poison damage plus the target must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for one minute. While poisoned, the creature is blinded. The poisoned creature may make a Constitution save at end of each of its turns to end the poisoned condition.
Beguiling Gaze. One beast or humanoid that Grandmother can see within 30 feet of her must make a DC 19 Wisdom saving throw, or be magically charmed for one day. The charmed target obeys Grandmother's spoken commands. If the target suffers any harm from Grandmother or another creature or receives a suicidal command from Grandmother, the target can repeat the saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. If the saving throw is successful, or it the effect ends for it, the target is immune to the effect of Grandmother's Beguiling Gaze for the next 24 hours.
Change Shape: Grandmother magically polymorphs herself into a Small or Medium humanoid, beast, or into a Large giant, or back into her true form. In a new form, Grandmother retains her ability to speak, proficiencies, the Following Traits: Legendary Resistance, Amphibious, Innate Spellcasting, Keen Senses, Mimicry, Regeneration, and the following Action options: Beguiling Gaze and Change Shape. If she dies, she reverts to her true form. Any equipment she is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (Her choice.). If Grandmother becomes Large, any gear will also magically resize to fit her.
Decaying Breath (RECHARGE 5 OR 6). Grandmother exhales black smoke in a 30 foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 21 Dexterity saving throw, taking (36) 14d6 Poison damage and (36) 14d6 Necrotic on a failed save and then must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw or is poisoned. A successful save halves the damage and negates the poison. While poisoned by this effect, the hit point maximum of the affected creature is reduced by the amount of Necrotic Damage Taken. The effected creature may make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns in order to end the poisoned condition, otherwise the poison lasts an hour.

LEGENDARY ACTIONS- Grandmother can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creatures turn. Grandmother regains spent legendary actions at the start of her turn.

Grandmother's Evil Eye (1 Action). Grandmother targets one Frightened creature she can see within 30 ft. of her. If the target can see Grandmother, it must succeed on a DC 19 Wisdom saving throw against this magic or drop to 0 hit points.
Swamp Gas (2 actions). Grandmother causes her swamp to belch a 20-foot-radius sphere of poisonous, yellow-green fog centered on a point she chooses within 120 feet that she can see. The vapor spreads around corners. It lasts for one round or until strong wind disperses the gas, ending the effect. Its area is heavily obscured. When a creature enters the affected area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must make a Constitution saving throw. The creature takes 5d8 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. Creatures are affected even if they hold their breath or don’t need to breathe.
Rotting Swamp Sludge (3 actions). A giant bubble of fetid muck ripples out in a 60-foot-radius sphere from a point within 150 feet that Grandmother can see. Each creature in that area must make a Constitution saving throw. A target takes 8d6 necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

LAIR ACTIONS- On Initiative count 20 (losing Initiative ties), Grandmother can take a lair action to cause one of the following magical effects. She can't use the same effect two rounds in a row.

- Slick mud covers the ground in a 10-foot square centered on a point within 60 feet that Grandmother can see and turns it into difficult terrain for one minute. When the mud appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a DC 19 Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.
- Briefly surrounded by greenish yellow mist, Grandmother can teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that she can see.
- Granny chooses a point within 150 feet that she can see. All weeds and dead vegetation in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves. She can exclude one or more areas of any size within the effect’s area from being affected.

Grandmother's Power: Grandmother is so powerful, that any coven she is a part of has more powerful magic to access. The two lesser hags are the only ones that use these magics for combat, as Grandmother is powerful enough by herself. The casting is 20th level, with Spell attack equal to 6 plus the Hag's Intelligence modifier, and Spell save DC equal to 14 plus the Lesser Hag's Intelligence modifier. The casting is done from the Wizard- s spell list. This ability is otherwise akin to Hag's Shared Spellcasting Trait
1 (4 slots)- Feather Fall, Identify, Magic Missle
2 (3 slots)- Arcane Lock, Darkness, See Invisibility
3 (3 slots)- Counterspell, Fireball
4 (3 slots)- Evard's Black Tenacles, Polymorph
5 (3 slots)- Animate Objects, Wall of Force
6 (2 slots)- Flesh to Stone, Mass Suggestion
7 (2 slots)- Sequester, Teleport
8 (1 slot)- Maze, Telepathy
9 (1 slot)- Astral Projection, Wish

[Unoriginal]

Pretty nice boss Hag, from what I see.



My only suggestion would be to call her "Grandma Greentheeth" rather than Grandmother.

Or maybe Grandmama.





I've always liked the idea that "Cold Iron" was actually just regular iron that could have been forged on a more basic level (general heating and hammering), as opposed to steel, since steel is created through additional processing.

Steel is an alloy. It's different from even the most complexly crafted iron.

[JellyPooga]

Steel is an alloy. It's different from even the most complexly crafted iron.

Steel isn't an alloy; on a very basic level, it's iron with a high carbon content, not a blend of metals. A lot of the "iron" found on Iron Age sites is functionally low-carbon steel due simply to the forging processes used to craft the items in question.

Now, that isn't to say that the development of steel hasn't incorporated alloying processes to produce a stronger or whatever metal to suit the purpose it's required for, but at its most basic, steel is just iron that's been heated and hit enough times to include a certain amount of carbon (usually obtained from whatever fuel is used to heat it).

When it comes to a discussion on "cold iron", the argument that a steel weapon is fundamentally different to an iron one would depend on the forging techniques involved. At a certain level of technology, "steel" will likely be an alloy, but either way there's an argument that an "iron" weapon is more "pure" and further that iron that has been worked less will be purer still. As such, such a weapon that has been created with minimal forging (or none at all if magic or another process can be used to extract the metal from the ore without use of a carbon based heat source) may have mystical properties, much as "elemental" water or air carries a certain mysticism.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Steel is an alloy. It's different from even the most complexly crafted iron.

Has anyone ever used pure iron for anything ever, though? Even ancient 'iron age' metalwork is usually alloyed (*Archer voice* or, whatever. Blended) with carbon and arsenic, from what I've read. Pig, wrought and cast iron are all carbon alloys. Meteoric iron is a nickel alloy. Soldering irons are mostly made of copper. Clothes irons are made of cast iron or steel. People love the name, it sounds strong and angry, but they have no real use for the pure element.

[Naanomi]

Has anyone ever used pure iron for anything ever, though? Even ancient 'iron age' metalwork is usually alloyed (*Archer voice* or, whatever. Blended) with carbon and arsenic, from what I've read. Pig, wrought and cast iron are all carbon alloys. Meteoric iron is a nickel alloy. Soldering irons are mostly made of copper. Clothes irons are made of cast iron or steel. People love the name, it sounds strong and angry, but they have no real use for the pure element.
To me, the point of change is when people are *intentionally* mixing other stuff in to change the qualities of the metal... stuff 'just happening' to get some carbon mixed in because of your smithing process isn't the same on a mystical level as altering things on purpose

[Knaight]

Has anyone ever used pure iron for anything ever, though? Even ancient 'iron age' metalwork is usually alloyed (*Archer voice* or, whatever. Blended) with carbon and arsenic, from what I've read. Pig, wrought and cast iron are all carbon alloys. Meteoric iron is a nickel alloy. Soldering irons are mostly made of copper. Clothes irons are made of cast iron or steel. People love the name, it sounds strong and angry, but they have no real use for the pure element.

Pure iron is a soft and easily deformed metal, it's pretty useless. It's also nigh impossible to get to high purities without modern technology; worked steel usually has a lower carbon content than unworked iron.

[JellyPooga]

Has anyone ever used pure iron for anything ever, though? Even ancient 'iron age' metalwork is usually alloyed (*Archer voice* or, whatever. Blended) with carbon and arsenic, from what I've read. Pig, wrought and cast iron are all carbon alloys. Meteoric iron is a nickel alloy. Soldering irons are mostly made of copper. Clothes irons are made of cast iron or steel. People love the name, it sounds strong and angry, but they have no real use for the pure element.

Well, no, to answer the question. Elemental iron is almost non-existant outside a laboratory and certainly not using traditional smelting techniques which will introduce a certain amount of carbon due to the fuels used.

In a fantasy setting, however, magic can make truly "pure" (or elemental) iron, by a variety of means and it's there that I think the notion of "cold iron" should be explored and it's the purity that grants it whatever mystical properties we might want to give it. If Fey creatures dislike normal iron, they really won't like elemental iron.

[N810]

Good link on cold forging iron:
http://www.bigrockforge.com/for-the-love-of-iron/

latest project, one I’m very excited about.. a work hardened ‘La Tene’ Celtic short sword made from pure phosphoric iron and work hardened.
This will be mind and it’s gonna be called ‘Cold Iron’.
http://bigrockforge.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sword.jpg

[Psikerlord]

I very much using cold iron and similar "non-magical" metals to bypass monster immnunities, to avoid requiring magic weapons to defeat such opponents.

In Low Fantasy Gaming rpg cold iron weapons affects demons, elementals & undead (also holy water), and silvered weapons work on lycantropes and aberrations. Mithril weapons gain a +2 init bonus and Adamantine weapons cant be seriously damaged by mundane means & gain +2 bonus when breaking things.

[BurgerBeast]

I just want to add that cold-iron need not be cold-forged iron or specially treated iron. You could just as easily say that, in your world, there is a fantasy metal known as cold-iron, a la mithril, adamantium, etc.

[Mjolnirbear]

In the Tamuli by David Eddings, iron is inimical to the more mystical creatures because magnetism interferes with magic.

In the Dresden files, electromagnetism gets all ****ed up by magic, but the fey have no problem mixing magic and electronics.

In post-shift Atlanta in a series by Ilona Andrews, science and magic don't mix: the world oscillates between magic and science.

Personally I like the idea that science and magic interfere with each other. That they're fundamentally different forces. The Fey, being a kind of magic made manifest, are vulnerable to science in a peculiar way. In my games, 'cold iron' means lodestone or magnets and represents a purely scientific force.

[Regitnui]

Ah, the Dresden Interpretation. That's what I go with, with the stipulation that it is unenchanted iron. Your magic sword is no big deal, but that old mundane boot dagger makes them curl away like wisps of fog in the morning sun.

Any fey weapons will still be of silver or bronze. Just because they aren't vulnerable to something doesn't mean it's not unpleasant.

I go with the Dresden Interpretation, where it's iron and iron derivatives that are treated by the fae as we would treat radioactive materials.


Folklore about *iron* is a thing, to be sure; it is the big sign of 'modern VS ancient' technology in a lot of folklore, and a lot of 'old things' have an aversion to it in some way. I generally interpret the 'cold iron' in roleplaying games to mean 'iron without being meaningfully modified into steel' (which is how Changling: the Dreaming handled it); but as mentioned above 5e doesn't care anymore mechanically

The lore as I figure it is that any iron tool is toxic to fae not because it's iron, but because of the metaphysical implications of iron being the first step of civilisation and technology. An iron plough is just as dangerous to the fae as an iron sword, because it's an object that alters the natural world. Worked iron and steel are toxic because we, as humanity, believe that they're the basic form of technology.

Wood is not, because we don't celebrate a "Wood Age", and the "Stone Age" is considered primitive. Forged materials are powerful not because of their substance, but their connotations. Other metals don't have the same connotation as Iron and Steel, so a faerie can use gold, aluminum, silver, or copper and remain unharmed.

[GorinichSerpant]

I go with the Dresden Interpretation, where it's iron and iron derivatives that are treated by the fae as we would treat radioactive materials.



The lore as I figure it is that any iron tool is toxic to fae not because it's iron, but because of the metaphysical implications of iron being the first step of civilisation and technology. An iron plough is just as dangerous to the fae as an iron sword, because it's an object that alters the natural world. Worked iron and steel are toxic because we, as humanity, believe that they're the basic form of technology.

Wood is not, because we don't celebrate a "Wood Age", and the "Stone Age" is considered primitive. Forged materials are powerful not because of their substance, but their connotations. Other metals don't have the same connotation as Iron and Steel, so a faerie can use gold, aluminum, silver, or copper and remain unharmed.

So, should fairys be smitten down by the mere presence of an iphone?

[2D8HP]

So, should fairys be smitten down by the mere presence of an iphone?


So that's why so many now feel free to use the "F" word (begging your pardons gentle sirs and ladies) for our goodly neighbors!

[Regitnui]

So, should fairys be smitten down by the mere presence of an iphone?

Nope. Because iPhones seem natural to us now. It's the near-mythological connotations of being able to forge iron that makes the fae weak to it. Name a pantheon that does not have a god of the forge or manufacturing metal in some way. A lot of religions have a story of where smelting and forging comes from.

[BurgerBeast]

Nope. Because iPhones seem natural to us now. It's the near-mythological connotations of being able to forge iron that makes the fae weak to it. Name a pantheon that does not have a god of the forge or manufacturing metal in some way. A lot of religions have a story of where smelting and forging comes from.

This looks more like support than a refutation, to me.

In the first place, iPhones do not seem natural to me. And even if they did, you could just as easily say that iron hammers and picks seem natural to the peoples who use them - at the very least it would seem that they would have to appear more natural than iPhones.

Anyone who ascribes "mythological connotations" to the forging of iron, must apply at least equal connotations to computers. If iPhones existed at the time that people were inventing pantheons, there would almost certainly be either a god of technology in every pantheon or the god of the forge's portfolio would expand to include all iPhones.

[hymer]

Name a pantheon that does not have a god of the forge or manufacturing metal in some way. A lot of religions have a story of where smelting and forging comes from.

Well, let's see where this gets us: The Norse pantheon turn to dwarves to get their magnificent artifacts made, or the gods steal them from someone.

[Knaight]

Anyone who ascribes "mythological connotations" to the forging of iron, must apply at least equal connotations to computers. If iPhones existed at the time that people were inventing pantheons, there would almost certainly be either a god of technology in every pantheon or the god of the forge's portfolio would expand to include all iPhones.

Not necessarily. There's a major distinction to be made between a process which we know produces a certain result, and a process which we know produces a certain result through known methods, where "we" refers to the collective knowledge of a culture and not individual knowledge. Iron smelting had mythological connotations because the things needed to understand it (variations in solid state crystal structures with temperature, phase change kinetics and the implications of rapid cooling, the effect of impurities on material properties due to the way atoms work) were far from developed. Computers don't really have that in the same way - there's still stuff that isn't understood as to why things are behaving the way they do (good old QM), but how is understood to a much higher level.

It's the same way that alchemy has a mystical feel that chemistry doesn't, even though historically all alchemy could ever do is a tiny fraction of what chemistry does. Once you're talking about bond energies and lattice energies, calculating equilibrium conditions and reaction kinetics, drawing reaction mechanisms that track how individual electrons move, predicting reactions based on known electronegativities, etc. it feels a lot less mythological. The weight of history is there, as is the weight of just how smart a lot of the people who developed this stuff had to be, and changing one substance into another is still fundamentally really cool, but there's nothing near-mythological about it.

[2D8HP]

Well, let's see where this gets us: The Norse pantheon turn to dwarves to get their magnificent artifacts made, or the gods steal them from someone.


From how they're described, the Dvergr (Dwarves), Dökkálfar (Dark Elves), and Svartálfar (Black Elves) all seem to be the same creature, but fey are tricky, fortunately iron horseshoes have been shown to usually ganga álfrek (keep the elves away, also means "go #2).

I can't find any testimony of the Huldufólk (hidden people AKA Álfar, which they consider a slur) of Iceland otherwise being wary of iron, but they do dislike electricity, and they also dislike holy symbols, a trait they share with their presumed cousins, the "good neighbors" (Elves) of England.

Unfortunately when I last went to Ace Hardware, while I could find "Gopher-go-die", "Rat-be-gone", and "Squirrel-scram", they were all out of "Elf-away", so since you can't be too careful, I recommend installing multiple water closets (please have them installed by Guild/Union plumbers), with iron horseshoes nailed on the walls, and lit by plug-in holy symbols.

Hopefully that will keep the "gentry" away.

[Naanomi]

Mezoamerican, North American, and Polynesian pantheons also tend to lack forge Gods

[Unoriginal]

From how they're described, the Dvergr (Dwarves), Dökkálfar (Dark Elves), and Svartálfar (Black Elves) all seem to be the same creature

It's a debate. Maybe there are different in some way, or it's just different names for the same beings. But we know for sure some Dvergr are Alfar.

[BurgerBeast]

Not necessarily. <snip>

I think you're missing my point. In the modern world, people do not make mythological explanations to account for swords nor for iPhones. This is because, for the most part, we don't use myths to explain things.

In a world where people do use myths to explain things, an iPhone is at least equally likely (but probably exceedingly more likely) to have mythological attributions.

If you want to switch realities and then cross-compare, you are not making a fair comparison.

[2D8HP]

So now that I'm home (and about to sleep) I dug up my 1976 copy of Katharine Briggs An Encyclopedia of Fairies, Hobgoblins, Brownies, Bogies, and Other Supernatural Creatures (a worthy companion to her British Folktales).

Besides such notable entries such as "Spells to obtain power over fairies", and "Virtues esteemed by fairies", there's "Protection against fairies". Some methods include bells, crosses (particularly ones made of iron), four-leafed clover, knives, open scissors (particularly ones made of steel), and the horseshoes I mentioned in an earlier post.

And given that the "people of peace"' have a history of blighting your cattle, stealing your children, and causing strokes, why wouldn't you use protection?

[Regitnui]

Mezoamerican, North American, and Polynesian pantheons also tend to lack forge Gods

They are also cultures who didn't really forge on a regular basis. But points to you for remembering what I forgot.


I think you're missing my point. In the modern world, people do not make mythological explanations to account for swords nor for iPhones. This is because, for the most part, we don't use myths to explain things.

In a world where people do use myths to explain things, an iPhone is at least equally likely (but probably exceedingly more likely) to have mythological attributions.

If you want to switch realities and then cross-compare, you are not making a fair comparison.

You're the one switching realities. In the modern age, everything seems wondrous if you think like someone from the middle ages. But we're not from the middle ages anymore. We're in the modern age. We have grand an wondrous devices, but we (collectively) understand them. Anyone who's taken a science class in school can understand how a computer works, on a basic level. We built the modern world for ourselves.

However, even up until relatively recent times, we didn't understand how a rock that looked unremarkable could be it through a complicated process and come out a shining silver (at first). We knew how to do it, but it was very much a philosophical black box. That gave rise to myths and magical theories. Those now endure in some small part to the present day. Much like how diseases weren't thought to be germs or viruses up until the last few centuries.

That primitive sense of wonder and importance, the metaphysical act of transforming the natural world to our will, that's what makes fae vulnerable to ferrous material. There's no magic in an iPhone. You can go to a factory and see them being put together. There was and is magic in a smithy, where rocks are destroyed and remade into tools. For the longest time in Western history, it was superior iron or forging that turned a rabble into an army. The Romans conquered most of Europe with iron and tactics. That's what I mean when I talk about the civilisation-building myth of iron.

Fae are nature supreme, the at-best incomprehensible forces that ruled the pre-medieval world. Iron and steel are artifice supreme, the first act of man that started us down the long, bloody road to our nature-subjugating civilisation today. It's not iron that hurts fae. It's the metaphysical presence we've given it.

[hymer]

Besides such notable entries such as "Spells to obtain power over fairies", and "Virtues esteemed by fairies", there's "Protection against fairies". Some methods include bells, crosses (particularly ones made of iron), four-leafed clover, knives, open scissors (particularly ones made of steel), and the horseshoes I mentioned in an earlier post.

Cool! Seems like stuff that's iron/steel, holy, lucky and with a sharp edge is what works. I'm not sure about bells; are they lucky or holy?


They are also cultures who didn't really forge on a regular basis.

How about the various Celtic mythologies, then? I'm not that familiar with them, but I've stolen been inspired by some of their gods on occasion. I don't recall any forging god.

[rollingForInit]

Here is the big bad hag, in all her glory.


Nice boss! You should let us know how the fight goes.

Probably no need to have Nondetection and Glibness as at-will spells if they're alrady active.

[Regitnui]

How about the various Celtic mythologies, then? I'm not that familiar with them, but I've stolen been inspired by some of their gods on occasion. I don't recall any forging god.

Found (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goibniu) one (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid) or (http://www.britannia.com/celtic/gods/gofannon.html) two (http://getasword.com/blog/391-celtic-gods-list-of-celtic-gods-and-goddesses/). It's a little hard to tell with Celtic gods, their history isn't recorded as neatly as Classical or even Norse.

[hymer]

Found (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goibniu) one (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid) or (http://www.britannia.com/celtic/gods/gofannon.html) two (http://getasword.com/blog/391-celtic-gods-list-of-celtic-gods-and-goddesses/). It's a little hard to tell with Celtic gods, their history isn't recorded as neatly as Classical or even Norse.

Getting conquered by the Romans can do that to a culture, I suppose. :smalleek:
Nice finds! The Brigid one is entirely new to me, which is probably because she's Irish. I should look into that more. The 'getasword' list seems to refer to the same Gofannon/Govannon as the britannia.com page, or am I missing one on the list?

[Regitnui]

Getting conquered by the Romans can do that to a culture, I suppose. :smalleek:
Nice finds! The Brigid one is entirely new to me, which is probably because she's Irish. I should look into that more. The 'getasword' list seems to refer to the same Gofannon/Govannon as the britannia.com page, or am I missing one on the list?

Belenos.

There are a good number of Celtic tribes. They weren't as monolithic in belief as the Classics portrayed themselves. They have a couple different gods, and in some cases multiple aspects of the same god; for example, is the Morrigan 3 or 1 goddess?

[Firemaster]

In my world cold iron is just a special, relatively rare metal one can find that Fey have a sort of allergic reaction to when they touch or get too near to (I like the idea of having a few types of armour and weapons that have special properties but are not actually magical).

What I've done for it in my world is if a fey is hit by a cold iron weapon they must make a CON save. If they fail, they lose their natural spellcasting (if any) until the start of the attacker's next turn. Cold Iron Armour gives you advantage on saving throws vs. a fey's abilities (other than normal, not-natural spellcasting).

[2D8HP]

Man do I dig this topic!

OK from Iron in Folklore – Superstitions Explained (https://diabolicalconfusions.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/iron-in-folklore-superstitions-explained/)

....Human blood has a very distinct smell which can often times be instantly categorized as iron. But back in the day, people did not know that blood contained elements of iron in it, so they simply equated iron to lifeforce. Being that iron is a mineral buried within the earth, once it was uncovered that you could obtain iron not only from meteorites, but deep within the earth, certain cultures regarded iron as the lifeforce of the earth. It was regarded as a magical substance because it could withstand both the elements of fire and a deep freeze of the cold, and because it was still harder than most if not all metals at the time...

...another quick reference of folklore would tell you that burying an iron knife under your doorstep would prevent a witch or negative spirit from entering your home. I suspect that after you hear the theory, you will believe as I do that it would have stopped all spirits, regardless of good or bad. In India, they believe that iron would repel the famous Djinn, and in other areas such as Scotland, Ireland, and Europe, iron is used specifically to keep malicious faeries from doing harm near you or your loved ones. This is because the “popular” belief is that iron is the “life of the earth” and is sacred, but when man had wrought it, twisted it, and mutated it to form shapes and objects, they tainted its natural reverence and turned it into something disgusting and putrid to the ancient faeries. It is no longer in its purest form, and that is what repels them...


.

[BurgerBeast]

You're the one switching realities. In the modern age, everything seems wondrous if you think like someone from the middle ages. But we're not from the middle ages anymore. We're in the modern age. We have grand an wondrous devices, but we (collectively) understand them. Anyone who's taken a science class in school can understand how a computer works, on a basic level. We built the modern world for ourselves.

In the modern age, everything seems wondrous if you think like someone from the middle ages, agreed. In the context of a middle age mindset, both smithing and the manufacture of iPhones are wondrous. Both warrant mythological explanation. That's my point.

Beyond this, an iPhone will always require more mythological explanation, or more scientific explanation, because it's manufacture is more wondrous than smithing, in either context. The most obvious way to point this out is that the process of mineral extraction, refinement, and "shaping," which is the sum total of smithing, is merely one (minor) part of the process of iPhone manufacture. In short, the metal pieces need to be smithed. But then you also need to make glass, microchips, and combine them is particular ways.

Also, the end product is exponentially more wondrous. Present a metalworker object to a person from the middle ages and he may feel wonder, but at the end of the day it's shaped metal that serves a purpose or two.

To the same person, an iPhone is not only a wondrous looking thing, it can show them movies, present a map of the entire (mostly undiscovered) world, speak to him and answer questions, etc.


However, even up until relatively recent times, we didn't understand how a rock that looked unremarkable could be it through a complicated process and come out a shining silver (at first). We knew how to do it, but it was very much a philosophical black box. That gave rise to myths and magical theories. Those now endure in some small part to the present day. Much like how diseases weren't thought to be germs or viruses up until the last few centuries.

Again, use a constant context.

context 1: Middle Ages:

The iPhone is more wondrous than a sword (or other object), and an explanation is still required for each.

(edited out a duplicate paste)

context 2: modern times:

The iPhone is more wondrous than a sword (or other object), and an explanation is still required for each.



That primitive sense of wonder and importance, the metaphysical act of transforming the natural world to our will, that's what makes fae vulnerable to ferrous material. There's no magic in an iPhone.

Except you have to transform the natural world to our will in order to get an iPhone. You're aware that iPhones have metal parts, I presume.


You can go to a factory and see them being put together. There was and is magic in a smithy, where rocks are destroyed and remade into tools.

But the pieces themselves have to come from the same wondrous place. rocks have to be destroyed and made into metal components.


For the longest time in Western history, it was superior iron or forging that turned a rabble into an army. The Romans conquered most of Europe with iron and tactics. That's what I mean when I talk about the civilisation-building myth of iron.

That "myth" is still present. It still is superior metal technologies that make weapons, ammunition, vehicles, and body armour. It's either mythical or it isn't, but in either context it requires or does not require the same amount of explanation.


Fae are nature supreme, the at-best incomprehensible forces that ruled the pre-medieval world. Iron and steel are artifice supreme, the first act of man that started us down the long, bloody road to our nature-subjugating civilisation today. It's not iron that hurts fae.

So, in your view, a sword is artifice supreme. Things like iPhones and artificial intelligence are not as supreme as a butter knife. got it.


It's the metaphysical presence we've given it.

Yes. The same metaphysical presence that is required to explain iPhones, in a middle ages context.

[Regitnui]

You're forgetting that iPhones don't exist in a Middle Ages, or even WW2, setting. Urban fantasy might have more on the interaction of fae and iPhones, but if we're talking D&D and traditional fantasy, you have no point. It's like arguing there should be a god of Quantum Mechanics in Greek Mythology because that's wondrous now.

But as to why Iron has more metaphysical weight that a piece of proprietary trend-follower nonsense (my autocorrect keeps messing up iPhone, so they're ptfn), is because the ptfn wouldn't exist without iron. We've been forging items for millennia. Ptfns have only existed for the past decade. The act of forging represented by processed iron is the metaphysical wonder that hurts fae. Not ptfn which are put together out of various processed materials and lightning-stones.

[BurgerBeast]

You're forgetting that iPhones don't exist in a Middle Ages, or even WW2, setting. Urban fantasy might have more on the interaction of fae and iPhones, but if we're talking D&D and traditional fantasy, you have no point. It's like arguing there should be a god of Quantum Mechanics in Greek Mythology because that's wondrous now.

I haven't forgotten that iPhones didn't exist in the Middle Ages nor during WW2, actually.

No, it's not like arguing that there should be a god of quantum mechanics. Not at all.

Let's look at the history of this conversation:


The lore as I figure it is that any iron tool is toxic to fae not because it's iron, but because of the metaphysical implications of iron being the first step of civilisation and technology. An iron plough is just as dangerous to the fae as an iron sword, because it's an object that alters the natural world. Worked iron and steel are toxic because we, as humanity, believe that they're the basic form of technology.

You've said three things here:

(1) because of the metaphysical implications of iron being the first step of civilisation and technology - this is problematic because iron is really not the first step in civilization nor technology, despite your arguments about an age being named after it.

(2) because it's an object that alters the natural world - this is the most coherent reason you've given, so the one I'm going with.

(3) because we, as humanity, believe that they're the basic form of technology. - this is problematic because it doesn't seem to me that you mean for it to hinge on popular belief in the sense that if suddenly most people changed their minds and thought that stone was the most basic form, then face would automatically become susceptible to stone. So I reject this.

Then, in response, we got:


So, should fairys be smitten down by the mere presence of an iphone?

Well, in the first context, you have an out: iPhones are not the "first step of civilisation and technology." But then you have the problem that neither is iron. In the second context, you have a problem, because a cell phone is "an object that alters the natural world." In the third context, the problem is the belief... because if people started believing that the cell phone is the basic form of technology, then the face would have to become susceptible to it.

So it seems to be a legitimate challenge. To which you replied:


Nope. Because iPhones seem natural to us now. It's the near-mythological connotations of being able to forge iron that makes the fae weak to it. Name a pantheon that does not have a god of the forge or manufacturing metal in some way. A lot of religions have a story of where smelting and forging comes from.

*** Note that didn't say "no, because cell phones don't exist in the past." You said "no, because they seem natural to us now." This is important. Your argument is that they seem natural - not that they didn't exist. ***

But swords and armour and bullets and guns seem natural to us, now, too. So this doesn't get you anywhere. They didn't seem natural in the Middle Ages, hence the problem of switching contexts.

All of it seems natural to us, now, so the fact that it seems natural to us now has no bearing on the fact that it seemed mythical in past ages.

So the problem remains unanswered: if iPhones do not hurt far because "they seem natural to us now," then swords and butter knives should not hurt far because they also seem natural to us now. End of story.

So now we come back to your present argument (re-quoted):


...Urban fantasy might have more on the interaction of fae and iPhones, but if we're talking D&D and traditional fantasy, you have no point. It's like arguing there should be a god of Quantum Mechanics in Greek Mythology because that's wondrous now.

So now you've gone back to the argument that iPhones don't hurt fey because fey and iPhones don't coexist. This is just a cop-out. You could have just said this initially, but I think even you know that it was just a cop out. I can have a fantasy world with fey and no iron. I can have a fantasy with fey and no cellphones. I can have a fantasy with fey, iron, and cellphones. None of this is relevant. The question was:


So, should fairys be smitten down by the mere presence of an iphone?

Which carries the presumption that a fairy and a cell phone come together in some context. And the question is, will the fairy be smitten down, based on your logic: "because it's an object that alters the natural world."

So, you've still got a problem, here. You still have not explained why objects made of iron harm fey, but cellphones (which contain iron) do not.


But as to why Iron has more metaphysical weight that a piece of proprietary trend-follower nonsense (my autocorrect keeps messing up iPhone, so they're ptfn), is because the ptfn wouldn't exist without iron. We've been forging items for millennia. Ptfns have only existed for the past decade. The act of forging represented by processed iron is the metaphysical wonder that hurts fae. Not ptfn which are put together out of various processed materials and lightning-stones.

You still have the problem of identifying what this "metaphysical wonder" is, and then why it applies to iron but not iPhones.

For example, a ptfn made of iron is still made of iron, so does a ptfn made of iron affect fey? No, it would appear that being a ptfn is irrelevant the point.

Does it matter that iron has been forged for millennia? It would appear to me that it does not, because the first piece of iron, new at the time, was presumably harmful to fey. Likewise newly crafted iron items presumably work despite not being mellenia old. As a separate point, copper has been used for longer than iron, so copperworks are technologies older than iron. So "being forged for millennia" seems irrelevant.

"Not ptfn which are put together out of various processed materials and lightning-stones." - sorry. I still can't accept your explanation. It seems to me that it is a mostly useful and pretty cool explanation, but it fell apart when you failed to apply it consistently. In the end "they are just susceptible to the physical properties of iron itself" works better. There are just too many holes in your explanation. Sorry.

[Beleriphon]

In my games, some fey creatures suffer the poisoned condition if they touch any iron or iron alloy, but that's about it. I don't implement it as a damage type, because the whole idea of 'cold iron' doesn't sit right with me. I always felt it was more of a turn of phrase ("taste my cold steel, you worms!") than a real thing - where the 'cold' part meant 'cruel' or 'unfeeling'.

I was going to say that cold iron is just another way of expressing cold steel in that sort of phrase.

Although how does one turn a phrase exactly?

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder326/250x250/72968326.jpg

[pwykersotz]

Man do I dig this topic!

OK from Iron in Folklore – Superstitions Explained (https://diabolicalconfusions.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/iron-in-folklore-superstitions-explained/)

....Human blood has a very distinct smell which can often times be instantly categorized as iron. But back in the day, people did not know that blood contained elements of iron in it, so they simply equated iron to lifeforce. Being that iron is a mineral buried within the earth, once it was uncovered that you could obtain iron not only from meteorites, but deep within the earth, certain cultures regarded iron as the lifeforce of the earth. It was regarded as a magical substance because it could withstand both the elements of fire and a deep freeze of the cold, and because it was still harder than most if not all metals at the time...

...another quick reference of folklore would tell you that burying an iron knife under your doorstep would prevent a witch or negative spirit from entering your home. I suspect that after you hear the theory, you will believe as I do that it would have stopped all spirits, regardless of good or bad. In India, they believe that iron would repel the famous Djinn, and in other areas such as Scotland, Ireland, and Europe, iron is used specifically to keep malicious faeries from doing harm near you or your loved ones. This is because the “popular” belief is that iron is the “life of the earth” and is sacred, but when man had wrought it, twisted it, and mutated it to form shapes and objects, they tainted its natural reverence and turned it into something disgusting and putrid to the ancient faeries. It is no longer in its purest form, and that is what repels them...




I like quite a lot of this. Iron being the life blood of the earth is a pretty awesome concept! I'm not as big of a fan of smithing the iron tainting it though. I think I'd prefer it if fey simply had no power over iron because while they have power over all living things, the fey cannot alter the earth itself. It is more fundamental than they are on the cosmic scale, and so when it is brought to bear against them, they cannot withstand it.

Or something like that anyway. :smallsmile:

[GorinichSerpant]

On the subject of "wonder", while Iphones don't cause awe like iron did, they are still a potent symbol of modernity and consumerism. There's the belief that Apple products are always the best even if that isn't the case, how is that different from the mysticism surrounding iron? One difference that pops up to me as different is age, but aren plastics,factories and computing not as antithetical to nature supreme as forging? Forging at least makes more intuitive sense, hit metal, get dent, repeat until you've got a plow, in software the complexities just keep increasing at every step.

[Regitnui]

Trillions of humans over millenia have put belief in iron as power, as magic, as weapons, as earth blood. iPhones haven't been around for a generation. Less metaphysical impact.

It irritates me that someone thinks a pillar of civilisation and its impact can be likened to a trending brandname.

[GorinichSerpant]

Trillions of humans over millenia have put belief in iron as power, as magic, as weapons, as earth blood. iPhones haven't been around for a generation. Less metaphysical impact.

It irritates me that someone thinks a pillar of civilisation and its impact can be likened to a trending brandname.

I can't argue with that. I made the mistake of applying the metaphysics of Unknown Armies to unrelated discussions, forgetting that while I find that doing so leads to interesting and amusing results, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[BurgerBeast]

On the subject of "wonder", while Iphones don't cause awe like iron did, they are still a potent symbol of modernity and consumerism. There's the belief that Apple products are always the best even if that isn't the case, how is that different from the mysticism surrounding iron? One difference that pops up to me as different is age, but aren plastics,factories and computing not as antithetical to nature supreme as forging? Forging at least makes more intuitive sense, hit metal, get dent, repeat until you've got a plow, in software the complexities just keep increasing at every step.

I'm still hung up on "while Iphones don't cause awe like iron did"... who cares how much awe they caused? They are, by every relevant metric, more awe-inspiring than iron.


Trillions of humans over millenia have put belief in iron as power, as magic, as weapons, as earth blood. iPhones haven't been around for a generation. Less metaphysical impact.

I'm still trying to figure out where you are coming from on this. You appear to be using metaphysics differently than I do. Are you saying that if a lot of people share a belief, then it has "metaphysical impact"?

It is abundantly clear to me that an iPhone has more metaphysical significance than smelting (or the entire process of creating an iron tool, for that matter). Merely asking the question of "How does Siri know where the nearest McDonald's is?" has more metaphysical significance than the entire history of ironwork. You may not like that, or find it irritating, but it's true regardless of how you feel.

It raises questions such as what is the internet? Where is the internet? Where is the information on the internet actually stored? How does Siri understand what you are saying? Is Siri alive? Is Siri a person? What makes a person a person? What is A.I., and what makes it different than human intelligence? Does Siri have a soul? Does Siri eat? What is electricity? Etc.


It irritates me that someone thinks a pillar of civilisation and its impact can be likened to a trending brandname.

Well, if we're going to play this game, it's at least equally irritating that someone could claim that a butterknife has more metaphysical significance than an iPhone.

I'll admit straight away that the discovery of how to extract iron was more important to human history. But that doesn't make it more metaphysically significant nor awe-inspiring.

[Regitnui]

I'll admit straight away that the discovery of how to extract iron was more important to human history. But that doesn't make it more metaphysically significant nor awe-inspiring.

That's exactly what makes it more metaphysically impactful. We're talking fae here. Fae can live for hundreds upon thousands of years. Even the weak dryads live as long as their bonded tree. The most up-to-date faeries still speak like someone from the last century because a decade old trend simply doesn't matter to them.

It's like a holy relic. The Shroud of Turin is literally a corpse-blanket. Why can you scare off supernatural beasties with it and not a blanket you slept under last night? Greater metaphysical significance. A billion people have believed or do believe the Shroud of Turin was the cloth in which Jesus was wrapped. It's the combined "weight" of the faith on it that makes it important, not anything of the object in particular.

If iPhones are around for a century of uninterrupted use, then they'd gain some metaphysical impact, some magic.

The real problem with using Iphones as an example, though, is that there are an equal number of people who'd argue they're useless pieces of junk and that you should pick an Android instead, which does everything an iPhone can and doesn't require you to accept Steve Jobs as your one true technological lord and saviour.

[BurgerBeast]

Okay, so it's clear at this point that we are coming at this from entirely different places. Part of the is your desire to use the word metaphysics to mean something different than it means, and the other part is some combination of using popular opinion as a measure of truth value, and, perhaps, thinking that there is real religious or spiritual significance to particular artifacts on earth? I don't share any of these views, so moving forward isn't really possible.


That's exactly what makes it more metaphysically impactful. We're talking fae here. Fae can live for hundreds upon thousands of years. Even the weak dryads live as long as their bonded tree. The most up-to-date faeries still speak like someone from the last century because a decade old trend simply doesn't matter to them.

No, it really doesn't. The historical significance of something to the species does not make it any more or less metaphysically relevant. I would say that iron is a physical phenomenon and really doesn't have any metaphysical significance at all.


It's like a holy relic. The Shroud of Turin is literally a corpse-blanket. Why can you scare off supernatural beasties with it and not a blanket you slept under last night? Greater metaphysical significance. A billion people have believed or do believe the Shroud of Turin was the cloth in which Jesus was wrapped. It's the combined "weight" of the faith on it that makes it important, not anything of the object in particular.

You appear to conflating metaphysics with, specifically, Christian religious importance, here. The Shroud of turin has no metaphysical significance, at all - not even if I accept the (historical) explanation behind it.

Also, the fact that people believe in some metaphysical concept does not make the metaphysical concept real. No more, at least, than the fact that people believe in some physical concept makes the physical concept real. For example, the fact that most people thought the world was flat did not make the world actually physically flat. Likewise, the fact that people attribute metaphysical properties to the Shroud does not make those properties real. This is not how reality works.


If iPhones are around for a century of uninterrupted use, then they'd gain some metaphysical impact, some magic.

Yeah... so... I reject this entire paradigm. It's completely unfounded woo-woo, which you seem to attribute some degree of significance to, and I'm not sure why.


The real problem with using Iphones as an example, though, is that there are an equal number of people who'd argue they're useless pieces of junk and that you should pick an Android instead, which does everything an iPhone can and doesn't require you to accept Steve Jobs as your one true technological lord and saviour.

There are a couple of problems here. When people say "pieces of junk," they are not being literal, and I think we both know that. Not even someone who claims an iPhone is a piece of junk is going to honestly say that it is less useful or less advanced or less significant than a similarly mass produced work of iron. The fact that they prefer androids is not evidence that they think iPhones are literal garbage, and as I said I think you know that.

So, I am not going to point to an iron hammer manufactured in China as evidence that iron is garbage, or that smelting is uninspiring. I'd expect the same degree of courtesy from anyone who wants to argue honestly.

Clearly you have chosen to go hyperbolic here, because Steve Jobs (and hyperbolic arguments constructed around his spiritual significance) has nothing to do with any of this.

You do have another problem, though. Even in your woo-woo context, iPhones are more significant. You see, iPhones are electrical devices, and the manufacture of electrical devices is a demonstration of man's power over lightning, and lightning is a raw natural force that predates not only man's discovery of iron, but man's existence, and indeed the existence of life itself. Lightning existed before the earth existed. In fact, iron is held together by electrical bonds. So while you can claim that iron is the lifeblood of the earth, lighting is the lifeblood of thought, consciousness, and the mind (whether human or godly). This is because electrical impulses are the lifeblood through which thought itself travels. Even as man unlocked the secrets of iron, he never dreamed that he would one day control lightning and thoughts. The ability to make iron seemed trivial in the face of such power. It was the realm of the god only, a realm man could never touch, and to even think it was considered blasphemy in many circles. So, for all of iron's physical significance, the microchip brings metaphysical significance, in the form of A.I., control of thoughts and emotions, etc.

But, let's be honest. All of this is B.S. You're not interested in any real significance. You just like your story and your particular woo-woo. Carry on and enjoy.

[Regitnui]

Alright. When you're talking about magic, you've got to accept a certain amount of woo-woo. When I use the word metaphysics, I mean cultural and symbolic significance, where the concept of iron has a deeper impact on culture over time than the concept of smartphones, but that's wandering back down the path.

[Unoriginal]

Alright. When you're talking about magic, you've got to accept a certain amount of woo-woo. When I use the word metaphysics, I mean cultural and symbolic significance, where the concept of iron has a deeper impact on culture over time than the concept of smartphones, but that's wandering back down the path.

Well, the thing is, it's not what metaphysics means. Just to clear that part of the debate between you and BurgerBeast.


In any case, one has to remember that back in the past, people had less knowledge of "what came before" and "what happened/happens elsewhere". We modern humans can appreciate iron for the amazing technologies that domesticating it provided.

For people at the time? Iron had an important symbolic value, because it was abundant, useful, and relatively easy to use.

Iron was mythicaly/symbolically powerful because it made one factually, physically powerful. Because it allowed one to control nature and humans alike. We can't really say it was because the humans of the time knew the humans of before or of another place also used iron.

[hymer]

Well, the thing is, it's not what metaphysics means.

I approve of you pedantry! And let me offer you some in return in appreciation:


We modern humans can appreciate iron for the amazing technologies that domesticating it provided.

'Domesticate' is not a proper word to use of the mastering of extracting and shaping of a material. According to the OED, it can be applied to animals, plants, and humorously to people.

[Beleriphon]

For anybody that doubts there's magic in a forge, go watch a few episodes of Forged in Fire. If those smiths aren't wizards I don't know what counts.

[BurgerBeast]

Alright. When you're talking about magic, you've got to accept a certain amount of woo-woo. When I use the word metaphysics, I mean cultural and symbolic significance, where the concept of iron has a deeper impact on culture over time than the concept of smartphones, but that's wandering back down the path.

I agree. But we're not talking about magic. We're talking about whether a an iron item is more awe-inspiring than an iPhone.

Bringing woo-woo into it doesn't decide the matter either way, no matter how cool the woo-woo is in anyone's opinion.

Also, as Unoriginal points out, that's not what metaphysics means.


I approve of you pedantry! And let me offer you some in return in appreciation:

'Domesticate' is not a proper word to use of the mastering of extracting and shaping of a material. According to the OED, it can be applied to animals, plants, and humorously to people.

In fairness, it's orders of magnitude for forgivable. He's used the word correctly but applied it to the wrong variety of object. This is a whole different category of error than using the word to mean something that it doesn't mean.

Regardless, you're correct to point it out.


For anybody that doubts there's magic in a forge, go watch a few episodes of Forged in Fire. If those smiths aren't wizards I don't know what counts.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. Again, it doesn't decide the matter of whether an iron item or an iPhone is more "magical."

But, taking you literally: smiths are not wizards. They don't count as wizards. There is no magic to be found on earth. There is plenty of awe to be experienced, but no magic.

[GorinichSerpant]

That's exactly what makes it more metaphysically impactful. We're talking fae here. Fae can live for hundreds upon thousands of years. Even the weak dryads live as long as their bonded tree. The most up-to-date faeries still speak like someone from the last century because a decade old trend simply doesn't matter to them.

It's like a holy relic. The Shroud of Turin is literally a corpse-blanket. Why can you scare off supernatural beasties with it and not a blanket you slept under last night? Greater metaphysical significance. A billion people have believed or do believe the Shroud of Turin was the cloth in which Jesus was wrapped. It's the combined "weight" of the faith on it that makes it important, not anything of the object in particular.

If iPhones are around for a century of uninterrupted use, then they'd gain some metaphysical impact, some magic.

The real problem with using Iphones as an example, though, is that there are an equal number of people who'd argue they're useless pieces of junk and that you should pick an Android instead, which does everything an iPhone can and doesn't require you to accept Steve Jobs as your one true technological lord and saviour.

I'll rephrase my thoughts to get them across better. If we accept the premise that iron hurts fey because iron represents humanity dominating over nature, then any given smartphone should do so as well because it does so tenfold. I used an iphone as an example because I like mixing aesthetics, not because the same logic doesn't apply to any computer. As BurgerBeast said, a smartphone isn't only bending the blood of the earth to mankind's will, it's also bending untouchable fleeting lighting into a stable predictable form. It's not only doing that, smartphones are also a portal to the internet, a realm where space doesn't exist, where everything is abstraction and idea divorced from the logic of the wild places, maintained by the constant watch of human civilisation. If that's not anathema to the Fey I don't know what is. Sure, it hasn't existed long enought to gain magical weight behind it, and we humans who live in developed countries have come to consider them normal, but from from the perspective of fairies who consider forged iron revolting and vile, modern technology should look like Yog-Shoggoth. The fact that iphones didn't exist as long a puny human's lifespan makes their existence even more obscene to the Fey.



I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. Again, it doesn't decide the matter of whether an iron item or an iPhone is more "magical."

But, taking you literally: smiths are not wizards. They don't count as wizards. There is no magic to be found on earth. There is plenty of awe to be experienced, but no magic.

I'd argue that the difference between scientists with engineers to wizards and mystics of ancient time is a cultural one. They both want to understand the world and apply that knowledge to get stuff done, it's just that for a long time the knowledge was tied up with nonsense. IT people are often expected to just magically fix computers, like smiths were thought to have mystical powers because they know how heat a heated lump of metal correctly. Real people who were referred to as some sort of mages are either skilled at a certain task, tellers of bull****(which they may themselves believe) or both.

[hymer]

In fairness, it's orders of magnitude for forgivable. He's used the word correctly but applied it to the wrong variety of object. This is a whole different category of error than using the word to mean something that it doesn't mean.

Regardless, you're correct to point it out.

Thus making my pedantry more pedantic than his. Yes! :smallcool: This is going to be a great day!

[2D8HP]

I call my posts bloviation rather than pedantry myself, as the latter implies attention to detail.