Persistent Spell requires Extend.. any way to get that for free?

[weckar]

I, like most, hate feat taxes. Knowing you will never use a feat you need to take is a rubbish feeling. There are, however, sometimes ways to either get a feat without having to explicitly choose it (class feature, item) or to count as having such a feat (like a related feat that will work as a prerequisite explicitly).

Does such a solution exist for Persistent Spell requiring Extend Spell? I can't imagine ever wanting to extend any spell, really...

[Grod_The_Giant]

The... Planning Domain, I want to say, gives it for free? Along with any number of bonus-metamagic-feat classes.

[weckar]

Planning? What's that from? :smallconfused:

[lagninja]

I believe it is either from one of the FR books, or SpC.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Clerics can get it from the Planning domain (SpC). Incantatrix gets bonus metamagic feats at various levels, as does Ultimate Magus iirc. (So do various other arcane PrCs, but with Persistent Spell i'm assuming you're aiming for some kind of metamagic reduction).

That said there are a lot of spells that benefit from Extend.
Basically every 1 hour/level buff before level 15-16 or so to make it last all day.
Any 24 hour buff so you only have to cast it every second day.
A lot 10 minute/level spells also qualify by the mid levels, but it's more situational.
It's also useful on utility spells and non-combat spells like Charm, Dominate, Command Undead or other long-duration spells like that. The level adjustment is definitely worth double duration with a lot of those.

Also keep in mind that Persist has more restrictions on what it can affect. You can extend basically anything with a duration.

[weckar]

True. It'd be nice if Haste could be persisted, but I guess Extend is the only real option there. I see your point.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True. It'd be nice if Haste could be persisted, but I guess Extend is the only real option there. I see your point.
There's always Ocular Spell if you want to get really dumb. (It turns a spell into a 60ft ray-- that's a fixed range, and so qualifies for Persist)

[weckar]

If you can find a way to target yourself with an ocular spell that is not completely ridiculous?? :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you can find a way to target yourself with an ocular spell that is not completely ridiculous?? :smallbiggrin:
"I look down. I can see myself pretty clearly."

[Deophaun]

"I look down. I can see myself pretty clearly."
Who would have thought navel gazing could have a practical purpose?

[Anthrowhale]

"Swift Haste" is a L2 personal 1d4 rounds version of haste in the Spell Compendium. Disadvantage: it's a ranger spell.

[thorr-kan]

Planning? What's that from? :smallconfused:
Spell Compendium, mentioned above. Originally in Comp. Divine. Or maybe Warrior.

[SirNibbles]

The nice thing about Swift Haste is that Archivists can learn it.

Archivists with Turn Undead are better than Clerics at being Persist-bots due to the sheer number of spells they can learn.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The nice thing about Swift Haste is that Archivists can learn it.

Archivists with Turn Undead are better than Clerics at being Persist-bots due to the sheer number of spells they can learn.

Unless you allow Nightstick stacking and give your players significantly raised wealth you won't be persisting more than a small handful of spells anyway, and there's enough of them around even just on the cleric list to make choosing a hassle.
Not to mention that you need to wait a while to get TU without losing caster progression (Sacred Exorcist).
I'd rather get DMM:Persist by level 3, two (or even three) free domains and the better chassis of the cleric.

Not to mention that clerics aren't exactly lacking in options to access other lists, between Anyspell and the Divine Magician ACF.

[xkroku]

In Magic Item Compendium there are Domain Draughts, which give you 24-hour access to domain spells and granted power. I think you could drink a Planning one before gaining a feat, and take Persist Spell.

It isn't the best option (they are pretty expensive, 3300 gp) but hey, that's somethig right?

If you want to play wizard there is also Domain Granted Power ACF (form Complete Champion i think) which gives you the chosen domain granted power
For this ACF you need to give up the feat in exchange, so you could just take Extend Spell.

[ayvango]

DCFS trick allows you to change any feat to any other legally accessible feat. So take 1 level dip into a class that grants your access to some useless feats and convert them to useful.

Cleric with War and Metal domains grants you 4 feats. They could be suspended with the divine interdiction spell though. Stalwart dragonblooded sorcerer grants you 3 feats without any obligations towards your deity.

Being elf grants your 4 bonus feats and you should not worry about -2 Con loss, since it could be lifted with druid's reincarnation.

[Anthrowhale]

Unless you allow Nightstick stacking and give your players significantly raised wealth you won't be persisting more than a small handful of spells anyway, and there's enough of them around even just on the cleric list to make choosing a hassle.
Not to mention that you need to wait a while to get TU without losing caster progression (Sacred Exorcist).
I'd rather get DMM:Persist by level 3, two (or even three) free domains and the better chassis of the cleric.

Not to mention that clerics aren't exactly lacking in options to access other lists, between Anyspell and the Divine Magician ACF.

I agree that clerics have better access both in terms of level and quantity to DMM[Persistent spell]. But an archivist that tries can persist about 2 dozen spells without breaking wealth by level or stacking nightsticks. This is enough that the spell access of an archivist has some value. Furthermore, it's enough that the cleric will probably be scraping the bottom of the barrel if it goes all out and persists 4 dozen spells.

Consider a human Archivist 18/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1(Undeath->Extra Turning), with feats:
Human: Extend Spell
1. Persistent Spell
3,6,9,12,15 Extra Turning
18. DMM[Persistent Spell]
Archivist 10. Easy Metamagic(Persistent Spell)

That is 6 Extra Turnings (7 with a nightstick). Let's assume Charisma is enhanced to 20, so effectively 7x4+5+3 = 36 Turn Undeads

Then:
1) Shapechange to change into an old Tome Dragon (24HD).
2) Cast spells with DMM[Persistent Spell] using Free Metamagic (-3) from Tome Dragon and Easy Metamagic (-1), reducing the metamagic cost to +2 for 3 turn undeads. Hence, we have budget for 12 spells.
3) Use 4 rods of extend spell to double the duration of each spell. Now you can keep 24 persistent spells up all the time.

[flappeercraft]

If you can find a way to target yourself with an ocular spell that is not completely ridiculous?? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, like putting your hand in front of your eyes maybe?

[icefractal]

I agree that clerics have better access both in terms of level and quantity to DMM[Persistent spell]. But an archivist that tries can persist about 2 dozen spells without breaking wealth by level or stacking nightsticks. ...True, but that relies burning all your feats for the purpose (and using DFCS or something to swap the pre-Exorcist feats for Extra Turning), and doesn't come fully online until you have Shapechange. At 15th level, for instance, as high as many games reach, you're only looking at 5 spells/day, so 10 total.

[Anthrowhale]

True, but that relies burning all your feats for the purpose (and using DFCS or something to swap the pre-Exorcist feats for Extra Turning), and doesn't come fully online until you have Shapechange. At 15th level, for instance, as high as many games reach, you're only looking at 5 spells/day, so 10 total.

I agree about the feats, but you can use them a little bit more efficiently.

At 15th level, you would want to use Assume Supernatural Ability with Polymorph[Young Adult Tome Dragon] so that persistent spell is only +3 metamagic. You drop to ~28 Turn undeads, implying persisting 7 spells/day or 14 with appropriate rods.

[Anthrowhale]

Yeah, like putting your hand in front of your eyes maybe?

The annoying thing here is that I believe you miss your hand 5% of the time.

[Dagroth]

The Cleric wins the DMM game for one simple reason: Rebuke Dragons/Channel Incarnum. Getting one of those two at 1st level and Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist gives you twice as much turning and 8 extra turns for every Extra Turning feat. It's so good that Easy Metamagic is actually a wasted feat until you have greater than 20 Cha & Extra Turning at least 5 times.

[Rerednaw]

Huh didn't know you could get it for free...then again I usually Extend my Persistents too that way I can alternate casting days and not burn as many turns.

[Firechanter]

In Magic Item Compendium there are Domain Draughts, which give you 24-hour access to domain spells and granted power. I think you could drink a Planning one before gaining a feat, and take Persist Spell.



When you lose the prerquisites of a feat, you also lose the feat's benefit. That's what makes qualifying for something via item (like Dex Bracers for TWF) a bit risky, and temporary benefits completely useless for this purpose.