Magic and the Mystic

[Millstone85]

I have a friend who really likes 2nd edition psionics, but I initially just didn't get the appeal. I am talking fluff here. Why bring another reality-warping energy to a world that already has magic?

After a while though, I started to like the concept. There are certain assumptions about magic in D&D, notably it being some kind of ambient field that can have dead zones or wild zones, leaving spellcasters like modern folk complaining about the terrible Wi-Fi coverage. Meanwhile, psionicists are all about the hidden potential in one's own mind, body and soul. That can become an interesting plot point, notably in settings like Dark Sun where nearly all magic has become corrupted.

But in the latest UA, psionics are only distinct from spellcasting, not from magic as a whole. Has there ever been this level of... I think it is called "transparency"?

Anyway, I still like the mystic class with its eastern magic fluff and stance mechanics, but I also feel like psionics are more of an empty term than ever.

Have I got it all wrong again?

[Typhon]

I have a friend who really likes 2nd edition psionics, but I initially just didn't get the appeal. I am talking fluff here. Why bring another reality-warping energy to a world that already has magic?

After a while though, I started to like the concept. There are certain assumptions about magic in D&D, notably it being some kind of ambient field that can have dead zones or wild zones, leaving spellcasters like modern folk complaining about the terrible Wi-Fi coverage. Meanwhile, psionicists are all about the hidden potential in one's own mind, body and soul. That can become an interesting plot point, notably in settings like Dark Sun where nearly all magic has become corrupted.

But in the latest UA, psionics are only distinct from spellcasting, not from magic as a whole. Has there ever been this level of... I think it is called "transparency"?

Anyway, I still like the mystic class with its eastern magic fluff and stance mechanics, but I also feel like psionics are more of an empty term than ever.

Have I got it all wrong again?

For me, the attraction of psionics has always been that it appealed to my nature of trying to be completely self-reliant. Arcane and divine magic are always reliant. Your point about wild and dead magic zones are one of the reasons, but in previous edition just moving between planes could potentially negate all of a magic users ability. Psionics, due to the portable nature, is not as affected in the same way or as often and if it was you could always pay more and still try to have your powers work (that hurt a lot though). Some seek to harness the mind to mold the body, some live to exist in thought alone, and some seek to attain a higher consciousness. It is not so much an all in affair like the monk, but it has its moments.

Transparency has always been a tricky point forever and I think they are trying to allay peoples issues by integrating it so closely with magic this time. In the past they have spelled out where it would specifically cross and gave DMs options to keep balance, but that didn't always work for everyone. Since Faerun (Forgotten Realms) is the default setting now and it is so magic heavy, I think that the way that have bound them together is probably ok. Other settings, that is going to be a whole different enchilada when it finally arrives.

Psychics and psionics are not an eastern concepts and I am extremely adverse to people thinking that. Unfortunately, I think that it is mostly eastern media that plays up such concepts as general spirituality. Many cultures and people have had things like mediums/diviners/spirit talkers but I am confounded why people constantly think psychic/psionics is mostly an eastern concept.

[MrStabby]

Psychics and psionics are not an eastern concepts and I am extremely adverse to people thinking that. Unfortunately, I think that it is mostly eastern media that plays up such concepts as general spirituality. Many cultures and people have had things like mediums/diviners/spirit talkers but I am confounded why people constantly think psychic/psionics is mostly an eastern concept.

Purely guessing here but i wonder if it is a language thing? Psy pertaining to spirit from the ancient Greek and people looking to the portrayal of the orient and things powered by Ki/Chi/Qi and translating it the same way. They therefore see "Psy" powers in eastern cultures.

[Typhon]

Purely guessing here but i wonder if it is a language thing? Psy pertaining to spirit from the ancient Greek and people looking to the portrayal of the orient and things powered by Ki/Chi/Qi and translating it the same way. They therefore see "Psy" powers in eastern cultures.

Perhaps.

But for me to get too far into that discussion will raise a large amount of personal beliefs and I wish not to take that route of conversation. Just from my perspective, psionics has little to do with spirituality in most regards and more to do with strictly power of the mind alone. Granted there is always a unity of sorts between mind, body, spirit, and soul, but really it is tenuous.

[Naanomi]

There are places in the traditional DnD setting that psionics don't work (heck there are places where *chemistry* doesn't work)

In Forgotten Realms, the traditional conceit is that psionics *is* a type of magic, just one that doesn't rely on the larger 'weave' or 'shadow-weave' to function (you generate your own mini-weave through talent and concentration); which is why it works in dead magic zones and isn't effected by wild magic (because those are related to the larger weave) but can still be dispelled

[Millstone85]

For me, the attraction of psionics has always been that it appealed to my nature of trying to be completely self-reliant. Arcane and divine magic are always reliant. Your point about wild and dead magic zones are one of the reasons, but in previous edition just moving between planes could potentially negate all of a magic users ability. Psionics, due to the portable nature, is not as affected in the same way or as often and if it was you could always pay more and still try to have your powers work (that hurt a lot though).
In Forgotten Realms, the traditional conceit is that psionics *is* a type of magic, just one that doesn't rely on the larger 'weave' or 'shadow-weave' to function (you generate your own mini-weave through talent and concentration); which is why it works in dead magic zones and isn't effected by wild magic (because those are related to the larger weave) but can still be dispelledThe portable weave is actually my preferred interpretation. I still dislike the introduction of a second miraculous energy, so psionics being fundamentally the same as magic is good. The divorce from the world wide magic field is the interesting part.

Now, by the latest UA's rules, casting Counterspell or Dispel Magic on a psionic effect would not work, unless that effect reproduces a spell. On the other hand, a psionic effect is always a magical effect that Antimagic Field can suspend. Would you treat dead and wild magic zones as a different beast entirely?


Transparency has always been a tricky point forever and I think they are trying to allay peoples issues by integrating it so closely with magic this time. In the past they have spelled out where it would specifically cross and gave DMs options to keep balance, but that didn't always work for everyone. Since Faerun (Forgotten Realms) is the default setting now and it is so magic heavy, I think that the way that have bound them together is probably ok. Other settings, that is going to be a whole different enchilada when it finally arrives.I see. No need to worry about Dark Sun then.


Psychics and psionics are not an eastern concepts and I am extremely adverse to people thinking that. Unfortunately, I think that it is mostly eastern media that plays up such concepts as general spirituality. Many cultures and people have had things like mediums/diviners/spirit talkers but I am confounded why people constantly think psychic/psionics is mostly an eastern concept.
Purely guessing here but i wonder if it is a language thing? Psy pertaining to spirit from the ancient Greek and people looking to the portrayal of the orient and things powered by Ki/Chi/Qi and translating it the same way. They therefore see "Psy" powers in eastern cultures.I was more referring to the mystic class than to psionics in general. It feels eastern, especially the Wu Jen subclass.

[MrStabby]

I was more referring to the mystic class than to psionics in general. It feels eastern, especially the Wu Jen subclass.

So i wonder if the Wu Jen does feel eastern? Or is it just given an eastern name? If it were called "Elemental Scholar" or something similar and described among classical western colonnades would it still feel eastern? This is genuinely a question - I could believe either way.

[Sir cryosin]

In the description part underneath disciplines it says that disciplines are considered magical effects. So they are subject to anti-magic fields.

[Typhon]

The weave was only established as the magical backdrop for Faerun is my understanding and even then the shadow weave was separate layer from the normal weave. Also in Faerun, psionics is confused with standard magic, so I could see a couple certain magical based deities taking that mantle to meld their power to it.

Krynn, Dragonlance, is the one world classical D&D world that didn't have any native psionics. They functioned just not in any of the native born unless they were related to outsiders that came to the realm.

Greyhawk had them but they were seen as just a different magic and most NPCs would treat practioners as such.

Ravenloft had a crazy amount of restrictions and limitations on certain powers. Plus the added benefit of dark powers checks for certain power uses and certain powers in general.

At least that was back in the old TSR days as per the complete psionics handbook. When the 2nd ed epic high level campaign book came out it had some dimensional stuff in it but mostly if it affected psionics it did so to magic much more greatly. The whole portable network.

Wu-jen is just one of the many adaptions of a cultural model into a game system. It used to be a wizard, but it feels a little overpowered as a mystic. It honestly feels like a archtype for a sorcerer to mix in psionics.

[Bahamut7]

In the description part underneath disciplines it says that disciplines are considered magical effects. So they are subject to anti-magic fields.

But should it be? I have always liked the idea of some classes utilizing the Weave while others don't.

Wizards: through rituals, gestures, incantions, and seemingly odd components they are able to manipulate the weave (hackers if you will). Their own magic is nearly nonexistent as they utilize the world's.

Sorcerer: Does the same thing as Wizards only they are able to do it innately without components, gestures, or rituals. Not saying that they can't use stuff like Wizards but that they are more connected to the Weave than Wizards.

Warlock: they made a deal to be empowered with the ability to manipulate the weave. If the contract is not done, the patron can revoke the power. If the contract is completed, the Patron cannot.

Cleric/Paladin: they are empowered by a Deity. If the Deity cuts them off, thats it no more. This would allow Divine magic to work in AMF.

Druid: Sorcerer on a whole different level. These people are so attuned to the Weave that they can also alter their own body to be more like the world empowered by the Weave.

Bard: Like Wizards only they understand the natural rthym of the Weave and can manipulate it through their music.

Monk: Has learned to manipulate the power of their Soul by maintaining a perfect or near perfect balance between Mind, Body, and soul. They should not be affected by an AMF.

Mystic: Close to a Monk but instead focus everything on the Mind and Soul.

[Naanomi]

<Class Stuff>
In classic Forgotten Realms; Clerics, Rangers, Druids, and Paladins all get their power from their Patron Gods; but the Gods have to still act 'through the weave' (except the few... ?two?/?three? who use the shadow weave instead) and are thus affected by Anti-Magic the same as any other casters

[SharkForce]

in 3.5 psionics were fully "transparent". they counted as magic, but not spells. they were subject to spell resistance by default, though there were variant options where you could make them more distinct (including making spell resistance less effective) if you wanted.

4e i'm not extremely familiar with, but for all the bother they went to in terms of making everything have a specified power source, i don't recall a *single* time it actually came up where something interacted with one power source but not another. i'm not saying there were no such situations, mind you... i'm just saying in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience with 4e, it never came up even once.

[Typhon]

AD&D psionics couldn't readily affect magic, but magic could do little to psionics unless it was very specific. If using the spell detect invisibility, a psionicist using invisibility or even superior invisibility showed up to the wizard. But psionics had almost no way of affecting magic, which meant illusionary magic was very powerful against psionic senses. Even spells that mimicked psionics (esp, telepathy, and the like) couldn't be detected by psionics. When they did collide, the psionicist was always the one making opposed checks to avoid detection, or to take control.

Actually, without psionics and Dark Sun there wouldn't even be 10th level spells. Those came about specifically because they were a merging of psionic ability with great divine or arcane magics. It had to do with the Dragon-Kings, Avangions, and the Elemental druids.

[Millstone85]

So i wonder if the Wu Jen does feel eastern? Or is it just given an eastern name? If it were called "Elemental Scholar" or something similar and described among classical western colonnades would it still feel eastern? This is genuinely a question - I could believe either way.On second thought, it is not so much that the mystic feels eastern and more that the monk feels psionic. Not because of ki/psi sounds but because of inner power and mental discipline.


The weave was only established as the magical backdrop for Faerun is my understandingIn the history of D&D, maybe, but in 5e the Weave is introduced in the PHB and is said to be known by other names depending on the setting.

And I do not consider the PHB to be an FR book. For instance, SCAG goes out of its way to make the paladin a narrower sort of character than what the PHB authorizes.


in 3.5 psionics were fully "transparent". they counted as magic, but not spells. they were subject to spell resistance by default, though there were variant options where you could make them more distinct (including making spell resistance less effective) if you wanted.So it has been done that way before. I didn't know "transparency" meant psionics were in fact magic.

Did the 3.5 version of Antimagic Field work against psionics? If yes, were dead magic zones a different matter?


4e i'm not extremely familiar with, but for all the bother they went to in terms of making everything have a specified power source, i don't recall a *single* time it actually came up where something interacted with one power source but not another. i'm not saying there were no such situations, mind you... i'm just saying in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience with 4e, it never came up even once.I vaguely remember certain feats only applying to arcane spells, or divine prayers, etc. Things that would only matter during character creation, not as a plot point.

And checking out the PHB3, I see it was in fact talking about "psionic magic".

...

Okay then. It seems psionics haven't been truly separate from magic in a long time.

[Typhon]

On second thought, it is not so much that the mystic feels eastern and more that the monk feels psionic. Not because of ki/psi sounds but because of inner power and mental discipline.


In the history of D&D, maybe, but in 5e the Weave is introduced in the PHB and is said to be known by other names depending on the setting.

And I do not consider the PHB to be an FR book. For instance, SCAG goes out of its way to make the paladin a narrower sort of character than what the PHB authorizes.

Greyhawk was the main world of 2nd ed, but its name wasn't on the title. The pubs typically pick which ever world is their favorite or will sell best and that becomes the main world.



So it has been done that way before. I didn't know "transparency" meant psionics were in fact magic.

Did the 3.5 version of Antimagic Field work against psionics? If yes, were dead magic zones a different matter?

I vaguely remember certain feats only applying to arcane spells, or divine prayers, etc. Things that would only matter during character creation, not as a plot point.

And checking out the PHB3, I see it was in fact talking about "psionic magic".

...

Okay then. It seems psionics haven't been truly separate from magic in a long time.

3.x did a whole lot of things with feats and prestige classes. It did help bring people on to psionics by letting them think in terms relative to wizard, but it left a really bad taste in my mouth. Not my favorite take on psionics in gaming.