Retiering the classes (PF): Sorcerer, Oracle, Shaman, Arcanist, Psychic

[Gnaeus]

OK, lets do this in a way that matters. I'm breaking my rule and jumping Eggynack in his tiering thread, although Sorcerer is the only direct comparison. And I do think a touch of the druid offshoot discussion may be relevant to Shaman.

Here we are tiering PF versions of classes. These look like the rest of the 9 casters. If I'm missing anyone, I'll add them in the half caster thread.

As discussed before, voting is open. Refer to the base thread if you need to.

[Gnaeus]

My Votes:
Sorcerer T1. I think the edition changes are enough to break the tier boundary. Specifically, crafting feats are now available, a lot more spells known per level if you include favored class, bonus feats and actual class features all help the sorcerer in the comparisons. Also, Paragon Surge is there if needed.

Oracle T1. (Although bottom). Exactly the same analysis as sorcerer. If you took the favored soul, made it SAD, almost doubled its spells known and let it convert to cures, added 6 powerful scaling spell likes and paragon surge, you get the oracle.

Shaman. T1 (higher than sorcerer or oracle) It says its a Oracle/Witch hybrid but feels more like Druid/Witch to me. Wandering spirit gives a revolving choice of spells. Prepared caster with what feels like a 9th level list, + hexes, and the hexes can be changed regularly. I see nothing bad here.

Arcanist. T1. I think Sorc and Wizard are both T1, so little doubt in my mind here.

Psychic T2. Certainly the one I'm most dubious about. Maybe T1. They have some abilities that let them change their spells, and what looks like a T1 list, but I don't see a FCB like sorcerers add to spells known, and they are MAD. I may change my vote here. I'll watch the discussion closely.

[Krazzman]

I will answer with my "insights" or objections directly.


My Votes:
Sorcerer T1. I think the edition changes are enough to break the tier boundary. Specifically, crafting feats are now available, a lot more spells known per level if you include favored class, bonus feats and actual class features all help the sorcerer in the comparisons. Also, Paragon Surge is there if needed.

Thruthfully... I am confused. I think that Bloodlines and FCB really push the sorcerer really strong. But always assumed you have so many spells to choose from that it makes it just unfeasible justify the tier rise... apparently I am wrong thanks to Paragon Surge (only for Half Elves) and the Humans FCB makes nearly every race safe for Half-Elves the inferior choice unless specific build goals are met.



Oracle T1. (Although bottom). Exactly the same analysis as sorcerer. If you took the favored soul, made it SAD, almost doubled its spells known and let it convert to cures, added 6 powerful scaling spell likes and paragon surge, you get the oracle.

My main "ire" with the Oracle is that your curses are really crushing if you take the wrong one. Adding the missing Good Fort save just as just another little slap... the cleric spell list is still solid, the right mystery/archetype gives awesome additional spells as well as getting some seriously good powers. I think T1 is doable, just not as easy as the Sorcerer.


Shaman. T1 (higher than sorcerer or oracle) It says its a Oracle/Witch hybrid but feels more like Druid/Witch to me. Wandering spirit gives a revolving choice of spells. Prepared caster with what feels like a 9th level list, + hexes, and the hexes can be changed regularly. I see nothing bad here.

No experience with them. From reading they seem like a Cleric with hexes and a spiritual gimmick.


Arcanist. T1. I think Sorc and Wizard are both T1, so little doubt in my mind here.

No argument here. The class itself could have been a Wizard archetype and I would probably not notice...


Psychic T2. Certainly the one I'm most dubious about. Maybe T1. They have some abilities that let them change their spells, and what looks like a T1 list, but I don't see a FCB like sorcerers add to spells known, and they are MAD. I may change my vote here. I'll watch the discussion closely.

I am unsure about the psychic myself. Considered him for a build that was recommended in one of my threads... but I just see a weaker version of sorcerer that could wear heavy armor...

[Felyndiira]

Definite T1:

Arcanist: Pretty much a prepared caster. Can grab a niche spell in one round rather than the minimum 1 minute that fast study requires. Full wizard list. The only major issue is delayed progression, but that's not going to change any tiers.

Shaman: The base shaman list is all battlefield control with some utility, which I feel is too weak to get into T1 by itself. However, with the FCB to grab cleric spells, flexible wandering spirit spells, and the Lore spirit hex that gives a bunch of wizard spells on demand (changeable every day!) as a wandering spirit, Shaman makes T1 under the same principle that a quadrupled-up Paragon Surge once made Oracle and Sorcerer T1. Hexes and spirit abilities aren't even needed for the tier consideration.

Arguably T1:

Sorcerer: Sorcerers got some major buffs in Pathfinder between bloodlines, the human FCB, paragon surge, and some new Paizo spells. The main question I ask of sorcerer isn't whether he can out-versatile the wizard, but whether he can out-versatile lower T1 classes like Cleric or Druid or Witch. And even with a limited spells known, I think a sorcerer can diversify enough that he can offer comparable utility when compared to the divine casters.

Oracle with Paragon Surge: Even with the nerfed Paragon Surge, I think a human FCB oracle who can cast just one floating spell a day can offer enough utility to belong to this tier.

T2:

Oracle without Paragon Surge: 7 spells per level off the cleric list still isn't enough, I think - especially with most of them acquired much later than a cleric can.



I don't have enough experience with the Psychic to really say anything about its tier.

EDIT: Changed all mention of ACF to FCB. Sorry.

[Tuvarkz]

Alright
Sorcerer: Tier 2. While there's theoretical access to almost the entire relevant spell list by later levels if you spend a lot of money into PoSKs, you are basically burning your entire WBL into it while the Wizard has all the spells and rods and wands and scrolls on top of that. False/Razmiran Priest Archetype makes the Tier 1 list, though, thanks to False Channeling allowing to use cleric spells through the sorc's spell slots.

Oracle: Tier 2, for the same reasons. Exceptions: Lore Oracle gets similarly the ability to cast wizard spells, if burning them off the spellbook, plus other features, and Lunar Oracle gets druid stuff to further empower his abilities, both tier 1.

Shaman: Tier 1, due to prepared caster stuff.

Arcanist: Yeah, Tier 1. Exploits are incredibly powerful, and the class feels like it gets the best of both wizard and sorcerer to play around with.

Similarly, I'll abstain from rating the Psychic due to not much experience with the class, but methinks it should lean more towards Tier 1 than Tier 2.

[Kurald Galain]

Arcanist = 0. It's stronger than either the sorcerer or the wizard. It can do all the nasty tricks from the best spell list in the books, gets the best of both worlds from spontaneous and prepared casting, and can trivially get a boost to its save DCs when needed. This is basically Paizo's do-everything class.

Sorcerer = 1. Stronger than its 3E counterpart, some of the bloodlines get powerful extra features, and it's pretty easy to increase the amount of spells known. It also has enough printed alternative class options that you can trade away bloodline features you don't like, can combine bloodlines, and get a strong familiar (with its own archetype) right out of the book.

Shaman = 1. Although it feels differently in play, in terms of building or optimizing one it's close enough to the Cleric that it shares its tier.

Oracle = 2. Sure, it's conceptually the same as the sorcerer, but the arcane spell list remains much better (although the divine list has its fair share of uber-spells as well). Traditionally a full-list spont-caster is T2, and the oracle sticks with that.

Psychic = 2. Basically the same as the oracle, a spontaneous caster with a wide list but not as earth-shattering as the boosted sorcerer.

[EldritchWeaver]

However, with the ACF...

Sorcerers got some major buffs in Pathfinder between bloodlines, the human ACF...

Even with the nerfed Paragon Surge, I think a human ACF oracle...

Do you mean FCB here? Pathfinder has no ACF like D&D did.

[Psyren]

Arcanist = T1, self-explanatory.

Shaman = T1, particularly with Lore and Wandering Hex.

Sorcerer = T2. They are definitely much closer to T1 in PF, but I feel the fact that their techniques don't apply to highest spell level, are race-gated, or are prohibitively expensive, limit their arsenal - and it is breadth of arsenal that delineates these two tiers.

Oracle = T2, same reason as above but even moreso because for divine casters, the incredibly niche can become even more necessary.

Psychic = T2, same as Sorcerer. However, Amnesiac Psychic can hit T1.

[Barstro]

Despite my ruminations on another thread, I now look at the correlation between Tier-1 and Tier-2 as follows;

A Tier-1 class can be in the hands of a moron for several levels, but still be put right to absolute power by someone with little effort. Example; even if someone intentionally choose poor feats and spells, a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Witch can spend a reasonable amount of gold to get the spells and items necessary to solve tomorrow's problems.

A Tier-2 class cannot be so saved without a lot more effort. I haven't defined "a lot", though.

HOWEVER, ours is not a game of random or stupid. While I don't think that taking the single "best" build of a class allows it to be listed among a high tier, I do think that reasonable optimization should be taken into account. As such, my views are based on what I think a person who knows the rules and is not intentionally nerfing his/her own character can build.

Arcanist - Tier 1
Oracle - Low Tier 1
Psychic - Tier 2 (unless I'm misreading the class)
Shaman - Tier 1
Sorcerer - Tier 1

Again, this is based on reasonable optimization but not min/max. It's hard to justify my position, though, when I just know Oracles and Sorcerers generally find themselves in niches from which they can never escape.

[Peat]

I still find myself unsure as to how many 'Encounter-Enders' are considered enough to qualify for Tier 1 and will therefore continue to vote lvl 9 prepared casters with good lists as Tier 1, lvl 9 spontaneous casters with some nice spells as Tier 2, and lvl 9 casters with dubious lists as ???

So -

Arcanist - Tier 1

Sorcerer, Oracle, Psychic - Tier 2

Shaman - ???

[Bucky]

Summarizing my arguments from the Sorcerer-specific thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518274-What-keeps-a-Sorcerer-at-Tier-2),

Sorcerers start from a baseline of being half a spell-level behind. They then need to choose whether they're using their few high-level spells known on raw power or on replicating many lower-level utility effects. If they were ahead of the prepared casters on spell progression, this would be a fair trade. Unfortunately, they have at most one non-bloodline spell known of the highest level the prepared casters have, so this choice is a real one and puts them squarely into the revised definition of T2.

Sorcerer - Tier 2

[Coretron03]

Arcanist: Tier 1, nice, simple and self explanatory. You cast of the wizard spell list with a better casting mechanic then a wizard. You can figure something out.

Shaman: Tier 1, Your a prepared caster of a nice list with hexes and other goodies.

Oracle: Tier 2. Oracles have less tricks for getting more spells known and cast of a worst list without the benefit of domains and "knowing" your entire list like a cleric. Some mysteries can push them to tier 1 though.

Psycic: Tier 2: Haven't really looked at them much but they seem like your typical spontaneous caster so they seem about tier 2.

Sorcerers: Arguably tier 1: Not really sure which. They can't swap out their spells on a daily basis and they lack spells known of their highest level and they are a spell level behind. Might change later if swayed.

[Calthropstu]

It is looking like the consensus is actually leaning sorcerer towards t1, and I agree. The sorcerer got some HUGE boosts in PF. The bloodlines give the sorcerer some incredible versatility and a nice array of options. The fact that you can get up to 3 of them with some trocks is actually kinda cool. Summon Monster, arguably one of the best spells a sorcerer can pick, also got some amazing boosts as well. With the ability to get extra spells known via feats and favored class means much greater versatility.

So I feel both sorc and oracle should be t1. Same with arcanist.

Psychic and shaman spell lists simply does not impress. T2 all the way.

[Psyren]

Eh, I wouldn't call 6-4 a "consensus" but we can all agree that they got a significant boost if nothing else

[Bucky]

Arguably T1:

Sorcerer: Sorcerers got some major buffs in Pathfinder between bloodlines, the human FCB, paragon surge, and some new Paizo spells. The main question I ask of sorcerer isn't whether he can out-versatile the wizard, but whether he can out-versatile lower T1 classes like Cleric or Druid or Witch. And even with a limited spells known, I think a sorcerer can diversify enough that he can offer comparable utility when compared to the divine casters.

I think you're severely underestimating the Cleric list, and possibly the Druid list as well. Recall that both Clerics and Druids can get domains to match the Sorcerer's bloodlines.

Additionally, Clerics can use Paragon Surge for the Preferred Spell feat for the same on-the-fly flexibility Paragon Surge provides Sorcerers.

----
Here's another comparison from the Sorcerer thread.

Wizard: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up a scroll each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea so I can prepare them for the dives."

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up four scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in one dive. Or I can buy Pages of Spell Knowledge at the cost of ten scrolls each."

Druid: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a shark. I can prepare castings of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea for our next dive."

[Gnaeus]

I think you're severely underestimating the Cleric list, and possibly the Druid list as well. Recall that both Clerics and Druids can get domains to match the Sorcerer's bloodlines.

Additionally, Clerics can use Paragon Surge for the Preferred Spell feat for the same on-the-fly flexibility Paragon Surge provides Sorcerers.

----
Here's another comparison from the Sorcerer thread.

Wizard: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up a scroll each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea so I can prepare them for the dives."

Sorcerer: "We're planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake next week. I'd better pick up four scrolls each of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea and hope we can get the job done in one dive. Or I can buy Pages of Spell Knowledge at the cost of ten scrolls each."

Druid: "I didn't know we were planning to retrieve an artifact from the bottom of a lake this week, but I can turn into a shark. I can prepare castings of Air Bubble and Touch of the Sea for our next dive."

Or he can use shapechanging spells he wants to get anyway, like alter self or monstrous physique or form of the dragon or undead anatomy. Any of which is vastly better than being a shark. Or he can craft a greater hat of disguise, well worth the crafted cost for almost anyone. Lesser planar binding an air elemental might work. Paragon Surge certainly would.

[Bucky]

...and Gnaeus recaps the other half of my conclusions.

The Wizard and Druid solve the problem of maneuvering and breathing underwater with two level 1 spells. They can't cover the whole party with them until about level 3, but the challenge doesn't necessarily require the whole party to be underwater at the same time.

Alter Self solves the underwater maneuvering part by transforming into an Undine. It does not grant the ability to breathe underwater. It covers only the sorcerer; other party members need their own solution. It's a second level spell that comes online at level 4.

Undead Anatomy is a good, if obscure, solution I didn't know about. It definitely solves the maneuvering part, and I think it also solves the breathing part. It won't work on other party members though. It costs one third level spell and it comes online at level 6 if you take it as your first 3rd level spell.

Monstrous Physique explicitly solves the breathing part; it's otherwise similar to Undead Anatomy. It costs one third level spell and it comes online at level 6 if you take it as your first 3rd level spell.

Paragon Surge can grant only one of the two spells. But it can grab Monstrous Physique to solve both problems at the cost of two third-level spells, or a third and a fourth level spell for your party members. It comes online at level 6.

Ride the Waves is your 4th level spell that solves both problems for other party members that you can grab with Paragon Surge. This version of the combo comes online at level 8 for you.

Finally, Lesser Planar Binding can probably grab something, or a team of somethings, that is capable of retrieving the artifact. It costs you a 3rd level spell, a 5th level spell and some other payment. It comes online at level 10.

In summary, while a sorcerer does indeed gain a pile of flexible ways to overcome this particular challenge, he only does so 3+ levels after it could be solved by preparing niche spells. Even then, it requires spending his only highest level spell known on flexibly emulating lower level effects or waiting an additional level.

[Coretron03]

Anyway, what kind of sorcerer is gonna spend their only 5th level spell known on planar binding? Is that a thing people do? Its not particularly wise as you don't get another one until 11 barring page of spell knowledge which cost 25k, too expensive to consider. Crafting it would take too long as well.

Gnaeus, would you like to make sorcerer spell list that you think would be tier 1 that could solve a vast majority of problems? I'm on the fence between tier 1 and 2 and some solid proof would be nice.

Edit: I think alter self does give the ability to breathe underwater as a general rule for polynorph spells is that if they grant you a speed (Swim, earth glide)in that area they also let you breathe their. Gonna look for a quote.

Edit 2: here, under the polymorph subschool
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing"

[Bucky]

Edit 2: here, under the polymorph subschool
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing"

Huh, using Alter Self to become an Undine gives the ability to breathe underwater even though a real Undine can't breathe underwater. That's... slightly dysfunctional, but I guess it works.

[Peat]

I am somewhat puzzled by the idea that Sorcerer is a Tier 1 and Oracle isn't. If the Cleric spell list is strong enough to support Tier 1, and a Sorcerer-amount of the best spells is enough to be Tier 1, then how is a Sorcerer-sized portion of Cleric spells not strong enough for Tier 1? I know the Cleric list isn't as strong as the Wizard list, but surely if you're only relying on the gems its good enough?

[Kurald Galain]

I am somewhat puzzled by the idea that Sorcerer is a Tier 1 and Oracle isn't. If the Cleric spell list is strong enough to support Tier 1, and a Sorcerer-amount of the best spells is enough to be Tier 1, then how is a Sorcerer-sized portion of Cleric spells not strong enough for Tier 1? I know the Cleric list isn't as strong as the Wizard list, but surely if you're only relying on the gems its good enough?

Sorc's got better class features.

Also, if prep-casting AND the best list (i.e. wizard) is high tier 1, and prep-casting OR the best list (i.e. cleric or sorcerer) is low tier 1, then it makes sense for NEITHER prep-casting NOR the best list (i.e. oracle) to be below that, i.e. on tier 2.

[khadgar567]

I agree sorc being tier 1 both sorc and wizard use nearly same list for their spells so if wizard is tier 1 sorc is to tier 1

[Peat]

Sorc's got better class features.

Also, if prep-casting AND the best list (i.e. wizard) is high tier 1, and prep-casting OR the best list (i.e. cleric or sorcerer) is low tier 1, then it makes sense for NEITHER prep-casting NOR the best list (i.e. oracle) to be below that, i.e. on tier 2.

Are Bloodlines really that much more powerful than Mysteries and Curses as to shift a tier? Particularly a tier hop based on flexibility?

[Calthropstu]

Are Bloodlines really that much more powerful than Mysteries and Curses as to shift a tier? Particularly a tier hop based on flexibility?

Actually, I agree that oracles should be t1. T2 is psychic, summoner, bard, magus and most other casters that only go to 6th lvl spells.Paizo gave enough power to most full 9 lvl casting classes that they pretty much all get to the top tier.

For what it's worth, I still feel this tier nonsense should stop. It's all a bunch of pure crap.


Sorc's got better class features.

Also, if prep-casting AND the best list (i.e. wizard) is high tier 1, and prep-casting OR the best list (i.e. cleric or sorcerer) is low tier 1, then it makes sense for NEITHER prep-casting NOR the best list (i.e. oracle) to be below that, i.e. on tier 2.

I disagree. I have gone over the oracle quite extensively and their abilities are actually BETTER than the sorcerer's. They also get their mystery spells a level earlier, which is really cool.

But their spell list is weaker.

Example: Fire Oracle vs fire sorcerer:
Sorcerer gets a free uncapped super fireball once per day at 9th level. They also get a scaling fire resistance, a ray they can shoot, they can swap any elemental spell to fire, get +30 movement at 15th and at 20th they get fire immunity and immunity to criticals and sneak attack.

Oracles get to choose from a wider array of abilities, some of which are so good many use the extra revelation feat to get more of them.
They can choose to get a 1hr/lvl version of elemental body, scales with lvl, a firey explosion more devastating than any fire spell in existence, fire resistance (though admittedly not as good as the sorcerers) and a slew of other great abilities. Oracle is a CLEAR winner here.

[Gnaeus]

...and Gnaeus recaps the other half of my conclusions.

The Wizard and Druid solve the problem of maneuvering and breathing underwater with two level 1 spells. They can't cover the whole party with them until about level 3, but the challenge doesn't necessarily require the whole party to be underwater at the same time.
.

1. As discussed, alter self works fine.
2. I thought Mr. Druid was wildshaping into a shark. How's he doing that at 1, or at 3. A spellcasting shark is level 5 minimum. And I'd still rather have alter self in case I wanted a wand.
3. At 1 minute/level, it's not much of an underwater adventure at level 1. The fighter can swim and hold his breath longer than that.
4 ok. You get there first. So, when we all make it underwater and we hit the unexpected dispel magic trap, the sorcerer casts another alter self, and the wizard drowns 14 minutes before he can prep that spell in his empty slot. Should have made that greater hat of disguise I was suggesting

[Gnaeus]

Gnaeus, would you like to make sorcerer spell list that you think would be tier 1 that could solve a vast majority of problems? I'm on the fence between tier 1 and 2 and some solid proof would be nice.
"

I don't mind, but it has to include bloodlines and feats. Because you build your list around your bloodline freebies and powers and you expand spells with feats. If that's fair, and no one is going to leap down my throat about that being a specific sorcerer, not reflective of all sorcerers, that's fine.

[Coretron03]

1. As discussed, alter self works fine.
2. I thought Mr. Druid was wildshaping into a shark. How's he doing that at 1, or at 3. A spellcasting shark is level 5 minimum. And I'd still rather have alter self in case I wanted a wand.
3. At 1 minute/level, it's not much of an underwater adventure at level 1. The fighter can swim and hold his breath longer than that.
4 ok. You get there first. So, when we all make it underwater and we hit the unexpected dispel magic trap, the sorcerer casts another alter self, and the wizard drowns 14 minutes before he can prep that spell in his empty slot. Should have made that greater hat of disguise I was suggesting

I'd just like to point out real quick that crafting a greater hat of disguise costs 6k, your entire level 4 wealth by level and over half of your wealth at level 5. Not really applicable to the ranges we are talking about.

[Gnaeus]

I'd just like to point out real quick that crafting a greater hat of disguise costs 6k, your entire level 4 wealth by level and over half of your wealth at level 5. Not really applicable to the ranges we are talking about.

No one ever actually gave me a level range. I'm not sure what range we are talking about.

[Barstro]

No one ever actually gave me a level range. I'm not sure what range we are talking about.

Don't feel bad. I've asked and received no answer on at least three different threads.

[Gnaeus]

L5 Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer:
Feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monster,
L1: Identify (Bloodline), Summon Monster 1, Enlarge Person, Dazzling Blade, Snowball, Stumble Gap, Mage Armor
L2: Invisibility (Bloodline), Summon Monster II, Alter Self
(Spells embedded in Summon Monster:
Grig: Entangle, Pyrotechnics
Faun: Hideous Laughter, Sleep
Pseudodragon: not spells, but Blindsense 60 and telepathy)
(So, can use save or sucks against all 3 saves, depending on need. Nice AOE control in entangle and pyrotechnics. Alter self provides aquatic movement, dark or low light vision or scent, natural attacks in the unlikely event that you want one. And a Str or Dex buff. You get a familiar from Arcane Bond, which you can hit with enlarge or alter self if you need. An Invisible Pseudodragon is a fantastic scout).

L10 Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer:
Feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monster, Dazing Spell, Craft Wondrous
L1: Identify (Bloodline), Shield, Enlarge Person, Dazzling Blade, Snowball, Mount, Mage Armor, Magic Missile
L2: Invisibility (Bloodline), Summon Monster II, Scorching Ray, Resist Energy, Create Pit, Command undead, Burning Gaze, Mirror Image
L3: Dispel Magic (Bloodline), Summon Monster III, Haste, Slow, Shrink Item, Paragon Surge
L4: Dimension Door (Bloodline), Summon Monster IV, Monstrous Physique II, Emergency Force Sphere, Greater Invisibility, scrying (Dazing Magic Missile, Dazing Snowball) (Gets an extra spell from arcane bloodline)
L5: Summon monster V (Dazing Scorching Ray, Dazing Burning Gaze)
(Spells embedded in Summon Monster:
Grig: Entangle, Pyrotechnics
Faun: Hideous Laughter, Sleep
Pseudodragon: not spells, but Blindsense 60 and telepathy
Lantern Archon: Aid, Detect Evil (and Aura of Menace)
Lyrakien: Ventriloquism, Cure Light Wounds, Lesser Confusion, Silent Image
Silvanshee: Dancing Lights, know direction, Speak with Animals (lay on hands)
Dretch: Cause Fear, Stinking Cloud
Faerie Dragon: Grease, Silent Image, Greater Invisibility (Self only), (telepathy 100)
Hound Archon: Aid, Message, Magic Circle against Evil, Beast Shape (Self only)
Pixie: Dispel Magic, Detect Thoughts, Entangle, Permanent Image, shield, Detect (alignment), Constant Invisible
Bralani Azata: Blur, Charm Person, Gust of Wind, Mirror Image, Wind Wall, Lightning Bolt, Cure Serious Wounds
Djinni: Gaseous Form, Create Wine, Persistent Image, Wind Walk
Vulpinal: Cure Disease, Major Image, Flame Arrow, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Charm Monster, (Bardic Knowledge, Lay on Hands)
Babau: Darkness, Dispel Magic,
Mephits: Acid Arrow, Stinking Cloud, Blur, Glitterdust, pyrotechnics, shocking grasp, lightning bolt, chill metal, heat metal, soften earth and stone, wind wall)
(So, Disabling attacks on all 3 saves, Travel via Wind Walk, Gaseous Form and D door, Curing abilities likely significantly exceed the druid, including dispel evil, a fantastic cleric spell that wipes out enchantment effects from evil creatures without a check. Buffs include haste, aid, magic circle v. evil, blur, greater invisibility, enlarge person, mage armor, mirror image and others. Vouivre Form gives 10 minute Flight, swim speed/water breathing, cold/fire/sonic resist, a claw/claw/wing/wing/bite/grab attack routine with reach in a form that can speak and hold wands (we will need to retrain in a few levels to add the breath weapon). Emergency Force Sphere is an immediate action NO that is handy to have in a spammable form. Significant melee minion abilities. Significant Scouting abilities. Significant Blasting abilities. Scrying + D Door= scry, kill, DDoor out. Abilities a wizard can't easily duplicate at this level (aside from spamming useful spell 4 times) include Dispel Evil, Wind Walk and Persistent Image. At level 11 we pick up Lesser Planar Binding, Magic Circle V Evil (as a spell known, not from a summon), and Overland Flight). Paragon surge fills niche holes.


That looks pretty competitive to a wizard to me. I think a PF druid would have a hard time beating it at this level.

[Calthropstu]

L5 Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer:
Feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monster,
L1: Identify (Bloodline), Summon Monster 1, Enlarge Person, Dazzling Blade, Snowball, Stumble Gap, Mage Armor
L2: Invisibility (Bloodline), Summon Monster II, Alter Self
(Spells embedded in Summon Monster:
Grig: Entangle, Pyrotechnics
Faun: Hideous Laughter, Sleep
Pseudodragon: not spells, but Blindsense 60 and telepathy)
(So, can use save or sucks against all 3 saves, depending on need. Nice AOE control in entangle and pyrotechnics. Alter self provides aquatic movement, dark or low light vision or scent, natural attacks in the unlikely event that you want one. And a Str or Dex buff. You get a familiar from Arcane Bond, which you can hit with enlarge or alter self if you need. An Invisible Pseudodragon is a fantastic scout).

L10 Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer:
Feats: Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Summon Good Monster, Dazing Spell, Craft Wondrous
L1: Identify (Bloodline), Shield, Enlarge Person, Dazzling Blade, Snowball, Mount, Mage Armor, Magic Missile
L2: Invisibility (Bloodline), Summon Monster II, Scorching Ray, Resist Energy, Create Pit, Command undead, Burning Gaze, Mirror Image
L3: Dispel Magic (Bloodline), Summon Monster III, Haste, Slow, Shrink Item, Paragon Surge
L4: Dimension Door (Bloodline), Summon Monster IV, Monstrous Physique II, Emergency Force Sphere, Greater Invisibility, scrying (Dazing Magic Missile, Dazing Snowball) (Gets an extra spell from arcane bloodline)
L5: Summon monster V (Dazing Scorching Ray, Dazing Burning Gaze)
(Spells embedded in Summon Monster:
Grig: Entangle, Pyrotechnics
Faun: Hideous Laughter, Sleep
Pseudodragon: not spells, but Blindsense 60 and telepathy
Lantern Archon: Aid, Detect Evil (and Aura of Menace)
Lyrakien: Ventriloquism, Cure Light Wounds, Lesser Confusion, Silent Image
Silvanshee: Dancing Lights, know direction, Speak with Animals (lay on hands)
Dretch: Cause Fear, Stinking Cloud
Faerie Dragon: Grease, Silent Image, Greater Invisibility (Self only), (telepathy 100)
Hound Archon: Aid, Message, Magic Circle against Evil, Beast Shape (Self only)
Pixie: Dispel Magic, Detect Thoughts, Entangle, Permanent Image, shield, Detect (alignment), Constant Invisible
Bralani Azata: Blur, Charm Person, Gust of Wind, Mirror Image, Wind Wall, Lightning Bolt, Cure Serious Wounds
Djinni: Gaseous Form, Create Wine, Persistent Image, Wind Walk
Vulpinal: Cure Disease, Major Image, Flame Arrow, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Charm Monster, (Bardic Knowledge, Lay on Hands)
Babau: Darkness, Dispel Magic,
Mephits: Acid Arrow, Stinking Cloud, Blur, Glitterdust, pyrotechnics, shocking grasp, lightning bolt, chill metal, heat metal, soften earth and stone, wind wall)
(So, Disabling attacks on all 3 saves, Travel via Wind Walk, Gaseous Form and D door, Curing abilities likely significantly exceed the druid, including dispel evil, a fantastic cleric spell that wipes out enchantment effects from evil creatures without a check. Buffs include haste, aid, magic circle v. evil, blur, greater invisibility, enlarge person, mage armor, mirror image and others. Vouivre Form gives 10 minute Flight, swim speed/water breathing, cold/fire/sonic resist, a claw/claw/wing/wing/bite/grab attack routine with reach in a form that can speak and hold wands (we will need to retrain in a few levels to add the breath weapon). Emergency Force Sphere is an immediate action NO that is handy to have in a spammable form. Significant melee minion abilities. Significant Scouting abilities. Significant Blasting abilities. Scrying + D Door= scry, kill, DDoor out. Abilities a wizard can't easily duplicate at this level (aside from spamming useful spell 4 times) include Dispel Evil, Wind Walk and Persistent Image. At level 11 we pick up Lesser Planar Binding, Magic Circle V Evil (as a spell known, not from a summon), and Overland Flight). Paragon surge fills niche holes.


That looks pretty competitive to a wizard to me. I think a PF druid would have a hard time beating it at this level.

Nice compilation. Not to mention you could theoretically replace Summon 5 with lesser binding for an even greater variety. But Summons are much better on the fly, since it takes 10 minutes to draw the summoning circle. Yeah, PF sorcerers definitely break the t1 barrier in my book. They were borderline in 3.5, in PF they definitely get there.

[Bucky]

Gnaeus appears to be arguing that the Summoner class is tier 1... even if the Summoner never summons their eidolon and never casts any spells themselves. So Sorcerers are therefore also T1 since they can replicate what the Summoner's doing.

[Gnaeus]

Gnaeus appears to be arguing that the Summoner class is tier 1... even if the Summoner never summons their eidolon and never casts any spells themselves. So Sorcerers are therefore also T1 since they can replicate what the Summoner's doing.

I'd call summoner a high T2. Summoning is an incredibly varied and powerful caster route, but this sorcerer has tricks a summoner lacks. A summoner 10 can DDoor and summon V. But with his lower spells known and spells per day, he can't (to give only one example) scry the enemy boss at the bottom of a lake, turn into a giant invisible dragon monster, summon 3 creatures off the summon V list, DDoor to the bottom of a lake with his pets, gank the boss, and DDoor back out of the lair. Of course, neither can a Druid.

This isn't the only way sorcerers can work. I was asked to build a sorc and I did. I think it is realistic because it is loosely based on the sorc I am currently playing.

[Psyren]

Why I'm personally not changing my mind:

- Paragon Surge fills a hole if you are one of the four specific races out of dozens who can actually use it, and three of those need a feat.
- "Summon something" is easy to interfere with or counter (even taking spamming into account), at which point the T1 is still T1 but the sorcerer is either hosed or has to fall back on an inferior ability, if he even learned one that helps.
- Alter Self grants a swim speed but not amphibiousness. The T1 at a lower level can more easily get both without hurting his versatility elsewhere.

I just don't feel like a class with these limits should be T1. It reminds me of Xykon - if you have cosmic power that could be denied that easily, did you really have cosmic power?


As for the Druid above - they can scry on the boss and get down there easily. Maybe they can't port back out until a little later, but they can tunnel out through the bottom of the lake and be just as difficult to follow or trace if swimming out isn't an option.

[Gnaeus]

- Alter Self grants a swim speed but not amphibiousness.

It does tho. It's a Polymorph spell and the Polymorph spell rules say you get water breathing if you get a swim speed. It's cited exactly earlier in the thread.

[Bucky]

You still aren't able to buff other party members to accompany you underwater until level 8, when it probably costs your Paragon Surge for the day.

[Gnaeus]

You still aren't able to buff other party members to accompany you underwater until level 8, when it probably costs your Paragon Surge for the day.

I'm sure I made them hats by level 8. Unless I really didn't like them. They're awesome for anyone, but a level above for muggles since the 6k cost is the same as upgrading their dex or strength from +2-+4, leaving the sense modes, speed boosts, natural attacks, disguise opportunities and swim speed as essentially free.

I'm not sure I would change the Tier without the changes in crafting rules. It's a big deal to me.

[Bucky]

In other words, Sorcerers can't do it until WBL lets anyone solve the problem.

[Gnaeus]

In other words, Sorcerers can't do it until WBL lets anyone solve the problem.

Any full caster, yes. In other words, if anyone can solve a problem with something they were going to do anyway, it's not a serious problem. In 3.5, crafting was really a T1 only trick. That was a huge blow.

It's actually better than that. It means I only really need the feat if we've got no more casters. When I list:craft wondrous it really means (craft wondrous or whichever craft feat we don't have). If the Magus got it for utility I might have taken rods or weapons or wands.

It's a team game. I like to be a team player. I think crafting is a near obligation to the party caster(s). It actually nerfs the sorcerer putting it alone like this, since I know my party when I build my character. If our sneak is a bard, I'll pass on blindness tricks and take spells that aren't sneak attack force multipliers. If we have a Magus I'll coordinate my spells with him and we'll likely consider cooperating on wands. I think I built a character that could solo effectively, but in play he will be stronger because he will dump generic tricks for things we need. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

[Calthropstu]

Any full caster, yes. In other words, if anyone can solve a problem with something they were going to do anyway, it's not a serious problem. In 3.5, crafting was really a T1 only trick. That was a huge blow.

It's actually better than that. It means I only really need the feat if we've got no more casters. When I list:craft wondrous it really means (craft wondrous or whichever craft feat we don't have). If the Magus got it for utility I might have taken rods or weapons or wands.

It's a team game. I like to be a team player. I think crafting is a near obligation to the party caster(s). It actually nerfs the sorcerer putting it alone like this, since I know my party when I build my character. If our sneak is a bard, I'll pass on blindness tricks and take spells that aren't sneak attack force multipliers. If we have a Magus I'll coordinate my spells with him and we'll likely consider cooperating on wands. I think I built a character that could solo effectively, but in play he will be stronger because he will dump generic tricks for things we need. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

Exactly. If you want to be the solo hero, go play a video game. I'm playing a group game, tyvm.

[Peat]

Exactly. If you want to be the solo hero, go play a video game. I'm playing a group game, tyvm.

But that's what the Tier system is measuring, no? Individual prowess, with an eye to at what classes a player could use to take over a campaign if they felt like it and what classes can result in a player spending a lot of time looking at their phone? I don't think anyone is suggesting that's a good thing, there's a reason the Tier guide gives 3 as the sweet spot, but it is what's being measured.

[Calthropstu]

But that's what the Tier system is measuring, no? Individual prowess, with an eye to at what classes a player could use to take over a campaign if they felt like it and what classes can result in a player spending a lot of time looking at their phone? I don't think anyone is suggesting that's a good thing, there's a reason the Tier guide gives 3 as the sweet spot, but it is what's being measured.

Except that's not what is happening here. Nor would it be effective in its goal even if it was. Instead of trying to argue about what classes are better, why go through all that trouble? Why not say "Here are the spells and abilities that are potentially game breaking" and discuss those? Why go to the effort of arguing tiers when all characters potentially have access to all abilities?
Why not propose fixes for abilities that are supposedly broken?

Instead, we argue useless tiering which does nothing for anyone.

[Peat]

Except that's not what is happening here. Nor would it be effective in its goal even if it was. Instead of trying to argue about what classes are better, why go through all that trouble? Why not say "Here are the spells and abilities that are potentially game breaking" and discuss those? Why go to the effort of arguing tiers when all characters potentially have access to all abilities?
Why not propose fixes for abilities that are supposedly broken?

Instead, we argue useless tiering which does nothing for anyone.

The thread title says Retiering the classes. I'm not sure what you expected here other than a discussion about the tier system, which is what seems to be going on to me.

If you think talking about tiers is useless and want to talk about potentially game breaking spells and abilities, then cool why not, but I don't see why a thread about tiers is the place for that.

[Gnaeus]

I don't think that assuming classes live in a vacuum is a precondition to tiering. It neither has to, nor should it, weigh solo play heavily.

When I look at a Tier 1, the factors I'm assessing are things like, can it casually outperform weak classes in their specialties. Can it with trivial effort choose between multiple methods (like melee, blasting, buffing, control) to dominate encounters. Can it likely dominate a wide range of encounters and also have significant downtime power across most of the things that T1s do. How extreme do DM targeted nerfs need to be to keep it from dominating play? I think PF sorcs perform very well by those measurements

[Calthropstu]

I don't think that assuming classes live in a vacuum is a precondition to tiering. It neither has to, nor should it, weigh solo play heavily.

When I look at a Tier 1, the factors I'm assessing are things like, can it casually outperform weak classes in their specialties. Can it with trivial effort choose between multiple methods (like melee, blasting, buffing, control) to dominate encounters. Can it likely dominate a wide range of encounters and also have significant downtime power across most of the things that T1s do. How extreme do DM targeted nerfs need to be to keep it from dominating play? I think PF sorcs perform very well by those measurements

Indeed. 3.5 Sorcs were borderline... easily the absolute top of t2. Adding to them the way paizo did easily pushed them past the threshold.


The thread title says Retiering the classes. I'm not sure what you expected here other than a discussion about the tier system, which is what seems to be going on to me.

If you think talking about tiers is useless and want to talk about potentially game breaking spells and abilities, then cool why not, but I don't see why a thread about tiers is the place for that.

I think the tiers should go away. As has been argued repeatedly, ultimately any class can get any ability.

But, since everything on this forum is tier this or tier that, I am kind of obligated to do as the Romans do while in Rome. Doesn't mean I can't tell the Romans they are doing it wrong though. So I participate.

I am quite fond of the Sorcerer class, and both of my most ridiculously powerful characters have been Sorcerers. As a GM, I will often use those characters as a gauge of how powerful my group will become, and use that to determine how powerful my endgame should be. But I digress.

My point here is that while I think the tiers should go away, I am more than capable of participating in it's discussion. And if they must exist, then I will argue for the characters I think should be in what tiers.

But I still disagree with the tier concept as a whole. There's a solid reason that adventuring parties generally consist of healer/arcane caster/meat shield/rogue type.

[Tuvarkz]

There's a solid reason that adventuring parties generally consist of healer/arcane caster/meat shield/rogue type.

It's fairly obvious, actually. Considering the tuning level of APs and PFS, it can be easily assumed that the majority of pathfinder players are bad at the game/optimization aspect of it. And imo, compared to other games with a similar skill vs power curve, this is a perfectly reasonable assumption.

[Calthropstu]

It's fairly obvious, actually. Considering the tuning level of APs and PFS, it can be easily assumed that the majority of pathfinder players are bad at the game/optimization aspect of it. And imo, compared to other games with a similar skill vs power curve, this is a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Wow... so you just insulted the entire player base of Pathfinder. Awesome.

Actually, the reason is the fact that the game started (original D&D) with the 4 major classes of thief, fighter, wizard, cleric. And, to this day, it is still one of the best well rounded parties around generally covering an answer for 90%+ of all scenarios. If the wizard can't magic it, the rogue can trap it. If the rogue can't trap it, the fighter can stab it. If the fighter gets hurt stabbing it, the cleric can fix that.

I actually find it funny that everyone here considers the cleric a top tier class because at most tables I play in, no one wants to play the cleric because, invariably people begin demanding spell sacrifices to cover healing so they don't use gold costing resources... turning the cleric into little more than a heal bot.

[Bucky]

...which is why you should play an evil cleric.

[Calthropstu]

...which is why you should play an evil cleric.

This made me lol... probably more than it should. Of course the party paladin might have something to say about that.

[Coretron03]

Wow... so you just insulted the entire player base of Pathfinder. Awesome.

Actually, the reason is the fact that the game started (original D&D) with the 4 major classes of thief, fighter, wizard, cleric. And, to this day, it is still one of the best well rounded parties around generally covering an answer for 90%+ of all scenarios. If the wizard can't magic it, the rogue can trap it. If the rogue can't trap it, the fighter can stab it. If the fighter gets hurt stabbing it, the cleric can fix that.

I actually find it funny that everyone here considers the cleric a top tier class because at most tables I play in, no one wants to play the cleric because, invariably people begin demanding spell sacrifices to cover healing so they don't use gold costing resources... turning the cleric into little more than a heal bot.

He didn't insult the entire playerbase he just said that they play on a different level of optimisation. It not inherently insulting because it's like saying most people play on easy on X game when the forumn plays on hard doesn't mean he just insulted everyone, it's acknowledging that pother eople play differently. This forumn is not a very very accurate representation of the player base because quite often someone makes a account and makes a thread about the "most broken wizard ever" that has 10% asf in fullplate. Anyway, the playerbase didn't build Harsk, the iconic whose average damage per round is 12. At level 12.

Clerics are depicted as healbots and most people find healbots boring so they don't play clerics. In my experience people play clerics and focus on buffing and people buy there own wands of cure light wounds and have the cleric use them for them, with the cleric popping some channels out of combat to save on money. Expecting the cleric to use his own cash comes off a bit rude to me.

On a different note (one that's relevant to the thread) the level 5 spell list looks pretty weak. The Spells you get from summons are basically irrelevant as sleep is past its hitdie limit, hideous laughter gives the opponent a +4 on saves if their not fey, entangle has a dc of 13 and at best is gonna waste a move action as anyone who will fail the reflex save will probably succsceed on a escape artist/strength check and pyrotechnics is dc 14. The sorcerers actual spells are ok, with some crowd control and some decent save or sucks but I don't think alter self is a good choice considering how weak your summons are. I don't think its that powerful, although it is a tough level for sorcerers as 3rd level spells are a big power up.

Level 10 looks much better, although that may be because its on a even level and summon monster is much better at that point because its way more versatile. Seems pretty good.

[Calthropstu]

He didn't insult the entire playerbase he just said that they play on a different level of optimisation. It not inherently insulting because it's like saying most people play on easy on X game when the forumn plays on hard doesn't mean he just insulted everyone, it's acknowledging that pother eople play differently. This forumn is not a very very accurate representation of the player base because quite often someone makes a account and makes a thread about the "most broken wizard ever" that has 10% asf in fullplate. Anyway, the playerbase didn't build Harsk, the iconic whose average damage per round is 12. At level 12.

Clerics are depicted as healbots and most people find healbots boring so they don't play clerics. In my experience people play clerics and focus on buffing and people buy there own wands of cure light wounds and have the cleric use them for them, with the cleric popping some channels out of combat to save on money. Expecting the cleric to use his own cash comes off a bit rude to me.

On a different note (one that's relevant to the thread) the level 5 spell list looks pretty weak. The Spells you get from summons are basically irrelevant as sleep is past its hitdie limit, hideous laughter gives the opponent a +4 on saves if their not fey, entangle has a dc of 13 and at best is gonna waste a move action as anyone who will fail the reflex save will probably succsceed on a escape artist/strength check and pyrotechnics is dc 14. The sorcerers actual spells are ok, with some crowd control and some decent save or sucks but I don't think alter self is a good choice considering how weak your summons are. I don't think its that powerful, although it is a tough level for sorcerers as 3rd level spells are a big power up.

Level 10 looks much better, although that may be because its on a even level and summon monster is much better at that point because its way more versatile. Seems pretty good.

Saying the majority of players of a game are bad at something is kind of insulting, no matter how you slice it... and it simply isn't true.

I see skill rolls in the 40+ range quite frequently, infinite free healing builds, powerful spell casters, huge damage output builds and many others.

As for summon monster 2, I use it well past 5th level. I drop it when I hit 10th lvl. 1d3 +1 celestial eagles with 3 attacks at +5 to hit and 1d4+ 1 damage that bypasses dr is viable for a long time. And the low cost open flanking buddies provide much needed assistance to party rogues, and even the melee chars such as fighters and paladins love the boost... all for a 2nd lvl spell. The reality of the versatility of summons isn't just spell availibility in the summons you can pick, it's also battlefield control, straight damage output and a wall of hitpoints. If you can get the enemy to attack a summons, that's an attack not going to your party.

[Bucky]

This made me lol... probably more than it should. Of course the party paladin might have something to say about that.

Something like "Don't worry, I know Lay On Hands" maybe?

[Tuvarkz]

Wow... so you just insulted the entire player base of Pathfinder. Awesome.

Calling someone bad at something isn't an insult. (And then I said majority, not everyone) Of course, unless their state of mind needs their skill at the game being considered decent by others, in which case there's other issues to adress.
To bring a similar example, I'll use the DotA2 MMR distribution (https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/).
You will find very bad players quite often up until the 3k MMR mark. Less than half of the ranked playerbase is at that level. You can still here and then find bad players until you reach 4k MMR, which only 14% or something of players play above of. 5k is considered 'getting good' at the game, and that's limited to less than 2% of the ranked playerbase.
So yes, in fact, more than half of the playerbase of a high learning curve game (Particularly considering the power level difference between chained, unarchetyped monk; and God Wizard) can be considered bad at the game.
EDIT: And while you may argue that the ranked playerbase of DotA2 is only one in three players, I cannot really consider that those that always play unranked must be honing their skills, particularly when unranked is naturally considered the more casual approach to the game.


I actually find it funny that everyone here considers the cleric a top tier class because at most tables I play in, no one wants to play the cleric because, invariably people begin demanding spell sacrifices to cover healing so they don't use gold costing resources... turning the cleric into little more than a heal bot.

And this only further proves my point.

[EldritchWeaver]

Calling someone bad at something isn't an insult. (And then I said majority, not everyone) Of course, unless their state of mind needs their skill at the game being considered decent by others, in which case there's other issues to adress.
To bring a similar example, I'll use the DotA2 MMR distribution (https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/).
You will find very bad players quite often up until the 3k MMR mark. Less than half of the ranked playerbase is at that level. You can still here and then find bad players until you reach 4k MMR, which only 14% or something of players play above of. 5k is considered 'getting good' at the game, and that's limited to less than 2% of the ranked playerbase.
So yes, in fact, more than half of the playerbase of a high learning curve game (Particularly considering the power level difference between chained, unarchetyped monk; and God Wizard) can be considered bad at the game.
EDIT: And while you may argue that the ranked playerbase of DotA2 is only one in three players, I cannot really consider that those that always play unranked must be honing their skills, particularly when unranked is naturally considered the more casual approach to the game.

I would have expected the curve to be more like a pyramid, but a bellcurve works also nicely. But that may be only due the inherent bias that unranking is done by the players with less skill overall. Still it provides an argument that top tier playing happens relatively seldomly, even when using classes with that potential.

[Calthropstu]

Calling someone bad at something isn't an insult. (And then I said majority, not everyone) Of course, unless their state of mind needs their skill at the game being considered decent by others, in which case there's other issues to adress.
To bring a similar example, I'll use the DotA2 MMR distribution (https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/).
You will find very bad players quite often up until the 3k MMR mark. Less than half of the ranked playerbase is at that level. You can still here and then find bad players until you reach 4k MMR, which only 14% or something of players play above of. 5k is considered 'getting good' at the game, and that's limited to less than 2% of the ranked playerbase.
So yes, in fact, more than half of the playerbase of a high learning curve game (Particularly considering the power level difference between chained, unarchetyped monk; and God Wizard) can be considered bad at the game.
EDIT: And while you may argue that the ranked playerbase of DotA2 is only one in three players, I cannot really consider that those that always play unranked must be honing their skills, particularly when unranked is naturally considered the more casual approach to the game.



And this only further proves my point.

Fair enough, but then the correct assessment should have been "Most people in role playing games are bad at optimization," rather than calling out pathfinder players in particular. It seems to me it was a jab at pathfinder players when, by the info you posted, it is hardley limited to pathfinder.

And I can agree to that. Many characters I have seen flat out suck (though some suck deliberately... whee, a ranged fighter who specializes in ranged disarm.... with a heavy crossbow)

[Felyndiira]

In summary, while a sorcerer does indeed gain a pile of flexible ways to overcome this particular challenge, he only does so 3+ levels after it could be solved by preparing niche spells. Even then, it requires spending his only highest level spell known on flexibly emulating lower level effects or waiting an additional level.

This is cherry-picking a single spell that the druid happens to get, however, and using to argue something as wide-open as flexibility. If a problem can be solved with some application of Grease or Silent Image, the druid simply doesn't get to do it either.

The question is whether the Druid list as a whole is equivalent to ~7 spells per level from the wizard list. Given that the Wizard list contains standouts of versatility like Summon Monster, the Shadow spells, and the spell versions of Wild Shape, I'd say that there's a good argument that at mid levels where tiering is considered the two can solve similar numbers of problems.

The T1/T2 line isn't, after all, whether you can solve a specific problem with a third vs. a first level spell.

EDIT:

As for the cleric list, there are definitely some really flexible spells there like shatter. Clerics get SM as well. Still, there's only so much you can get from your domain lists, and much of it (even things like Zone of Truth) is very, very situational. While you can argue that the situational spells are the boundary between T1 and T2, you then have to account for the sorcerer using, say, Shadow spells to simply solve something the cleric list isn't able to at comparable levels.

[Gnaeus]

On a different note (one that's relevant to the thread) the level 5 spell list looks pretty weak. The Spells you get from summons are basically irrelevant as sleep is past its hitdie limit, hideous laughter gives the opponent a +4 on saves if their not fey, entangle has a dc of 13 and at best is gonna waste a move action as anyone who will fail the reflex save will probably succsceed on a escape artist/strength check and pyrotechnics is dc 14. The sorcerers actual spells are ok, with some crowd control and some decent save or sucks but I don't think alter self is a good choice considering how weak your summons are. I don't think its that powerful, although it is a tough level for sorcerers as 3rd level spells are a big power up..

Fair. Still, pyrotechnics is a situational vision blocking spell. Putting a guard to sleep 100 feet away isn't bad, nor is disabling part of a larger encounter. Entangle is very useful even on a successful save (drop it on a group of archers and they can't escape a 40 radius effect of difficult terrain even on a double move. Can't run or charge through it. That's handy, and you are going to get at least 2 chances on most enemies if you can center it.) Telepathy even for a few rounds can be useful. Blindsense is autodetect sneak at that level.

And I don't think the faun or the wolf are terrible. Faun has 19 hp, diehard, good saves. He's a disposable flanker, or wall. Wolf has 19 hp, diehard, free trips. But we also have the general summons list. Giant spider is 22hp, mind affecting immune, poison, web, handy for getting over a wall. Air and earth elemental are generally handy.

Alter self is one of several things.
1. A good disguise
2. Tabaxi form. That's a claw claw bite attack. +2 strength. Base 40 movement. Dark vision. Scent.
3. Charau-ka form. +1 AC/to hit size, +2 dex, darkvision, low light vision, scent, 30 move as a small creature. Bite attack
4. Swim 30+ water breathing +2 strength for 5 minutes.

As a suite of utility, movement, senses, defenses and attacks, I think it's tough to beat at this level. Does it make you a fighter? No. But I have stabbed things with my shortspear in a pinch, and if you get there, 2 extra natural attacks aren't bad, if only to teach things the error of grappling you. To put it a different way, it's pretty comparable utility to the Druid's wildshape at this level without needing a feat to cast. Coupled with invisibility, you could just move around the battlefield as a flanker for your teammates or summons while aiding another if you wanted a low risk way to help. 5 minutes might get you through 2 fights in a small dungeon.

Oh. Duh. I forgot the other reason. Arcane bloodline gives you a familiar. Alter self turns your familiar into a humanoid for 5 minutes, if you like.

[Tuvarkz]

Fair enough, but then the correct assessment should have been "Most people in role playing games are bad at optimization," rather than calling out pathfinder players in particular. It seems to me it was a jab at pathfinder players when, by the info you posted, it is hardley limited to pathfinder.

And I can agree to that. Many characters I have seen flat out suck (though some suck deliberately... whee, a ranged fighter who specializes in ranged disarm.... with a heavy crossbow)

...Not exactly. I specifically mentioned high-learning curve, skill-to-power games. In a relatively simpler game, higher floor and lower ceiling, I wouldn't make that argument with that much security. I should have added 3.5 and others to the list, but I'd need more research on more casual-friendly systems and their overall popularities to make a statement regarding roleplaying games in general, particularly because someone good at optimizing in one system could not be as good at optimizing in another one (As an example, I can do very well with Pathfinder and 3.5, but wouldn't be able to optimize since I've got little to no experience in Savage Worlds or GURPS).

EDIT: Lest we derail the thread, Calthropstu, if you willing to take this conversation further, want to go into PMs or open another thread where it may belong?

[Coretron03]

I'd call summoner a high T2. Summoning is an incredibly varied and powerful caster route, but this sorcerer has tricks a summoner lacks. A summoner 10 can DDoor and summon V. But with his lower spells known and spells per day, he can't (to give only one example) scry the enemy boss at the bottom of a lake, turn into a giant invisible dragon monster, summon 3 creatures off the summon V list, DDoor to the bottom of a lake with his pets, gank the boss, and DDoor back out of the lair. Of course, neither can a Druid.

This isn't the only way sorcerers can work. I was asked to build a sorc and I did. I think it is realistic because it is loosely based on the sorc I am currently playing.
Fisrt, since I missed this post, how are you summoning 3 monsters off the summon monster V list? At level 10? At level 5 I'd say the summoner can do what your sorcerer can do but better. If a summoner took the master summoner archtype they would have 2 more feats then you and better spell casting as they would have only 2 less level 1 spells known if you include summon monster spell like ability which lasts 10 times longer with many more uses per day and summon monster 3 access. Instead of invisbility they could take haste for something much more powerful. They lose a bit of power the higher level you get but level 10 they are still powerful. You could probably make a case for them that they hit tier 1 if sorcerers do.

Edit: And they can use alter self better then sorcerers because they are better in melee with a d8 hitdie and 3/4 bab.

[Calthropstu]

...Not exactly. I specifically mentioned high-learning curve, skill-to-power games. In a relatively simpler game, higher floor and lower ceiling, I wouldn't make that argument with that much security. I should have added 3.5 and others to the list, but I'd need more research on more casual-friendly systems and their overall popularities to make a statement regarding roleplaying games in general, particularly because someone good at optimizing in one system could not be as good at optimizing in another one (As an example, I can do very well with Pathfinder and 3.5, but wouldn't be able to optimize since I've got little to no experience in Savage Worlds or GURPS).

EDIT: Lest we derail the thread, Calthropstu, if you willing to take this conversation further, want to go into PMs or open another thread where it may belong?

Eh, I'm over it. Water under the bridge and all that.

You seem reasonable enough.

As for tiering the PF classes goes, yes... the better and more experienced players can break most systems. Let's assume, as in 3.5 versions of these threads, that we are dealing with practical optimization rather than tricks to get more powerful than we should be eh?

[Bucky]

I'd like to point out that skill doesn't necessarily imply optimization. A skilled player can decide to deliberately avoid their gamebreaking options and play a tier 1 caster at a tier 3 power level, either for RP reasons or to make the game more fun for the rest of the players.

[Rynjin]

I'd still class Sorcerer as tier 2. A STRONG tier 2 on the cusp of T1, perhaps, but still T2. A Sorcerer can do ANYTHING but it can't do EVERYTHING unlike a T1 class like Wizard. The Bloodline abilities are largely irrelevant. You can dumpster dive Bloodlines for arguably useful abilities but even the best ones are usually the Arcana...which if a Wizard feels like they gotta have, cna take a 1 level dip in the class, have the same spell progression, and infinitely better flexibility. Being able to sprout wings and fly for a round/level at 13th is cute and all, but doesn't rally factor into the class' power.

Oracle is a much lower T2. Mysteries (and the Curses attached to them, for the most part) are better than Bloodlines by a wide margin (partly due to being able to avoid picking the garbage ones, unlike Sorcerer where each Bloodline has at least one piece of trash you HAVE to let take up space on your sheet), but it lacks the thing that makes Cleric T1: Access to every spell on its list and the flexibility to swap them out as needed. As an Oracle you're going to be very specialized and unlike a Cleric (who can prepare Restoration, for example, as needed) if you want to cast it you need to dedicate one of your few spells known to a spell you're gong to be casting a few times a campaign most likely.

Both can increase their flexibility somewhat with gold in the form of Scrolls and a Mnemonic Vestment but that just means the Wizard and Cleric respectively are still more flexible AND have 5k gp (plus the cost of scrolls) above in wealth.

Shaman is a strong tier 1. You basically get to cherry pick the best spells from the Cleric, Druid, AND Wizard spell lists on top of being a Prepared Wisdom caster. Most of the Spirits suck, you're stuck with a Familiar (I personally hate 'em), and you're slightly MADer than a Wizard or Cleric (since you actually NEED a bit of Charisma) but I don't think there's any argument that this isn't one of the strongest classes in the game.

Arcanist is in the same boat. Best single spell list in the game, has the best of both worlds as far as prepared and spontaneous casting are concerned, and can get an ability that makes the "prepared" part basically moot (Quick Study). It hard to argue anything but tier 1.

Psychic is the weird one. Psychic casting just breaks so many of the assumptions of the game that it makes it hard to judge. Many of the "foul up the caster" tactics like Grappling or even Paralysis don't actually work since every Psychic spells are purely mental actions. They even have baked into their rules that they can bypass specific material components and can basically use anything with the same GP value or less if they are "emotionally significant" objects which is a situational but very real (if small) boost to how Material components work.

On the other hand, they are also susceptible to some really weird ways of shutting down their spellcasting completely. Most notably, Fear. A simple Shaken condition (imposed by anyone who can make a DC "Lol what is this tiny number" Intimidate check) makes them absolutely incapable of casting spells without metamagic to remove Emotion components.

Their spell list is solid, if not spectacular, and has some pretty lulzy tricks along with it. It does have the easiest "extra life" spell in the game with Akashic Form and the ability to do some crazy stuff with Major Mind Swap. If you want, for example, to permanently be a dragon you can incapacitate it, Mind Swap with it (preferably after stabbing yourself repeatedly, Ginyu style) and then kill or otherwise restrain your original body. Bam, you're a dragon for as long as you want...and without most of the weird headache-y bull**** that comes with stuff like Polymorph Any Object and how that interacts with Type or body specific abilities. If you ever want to be something else, swap with another race or something.

On the downside they are spontaneous casters and due to them being a fairly recent class lack the huge amount of splat support that the other full casters have received to expand their spell lists.

All in all Psychic is probably a solid T2, with potential to go up to T1 with future support for the class increasing its list's flexibility.

[Bucky]

I'm pretty sure Psychics get some spells with no emotion component.

(E) Suggestion, for example, does not.

[Rynjin]

I'm pretty sure Psychics get some spells with no emotion component.

Quite a few, actually. Anticipate Thoughts (Meh.), Apport Object/Animal (not much combat use), Bilocation (a spell that seems to go out of its way to specify it can't be used for anything useful), Cognitive Block (really bad), Decrepit Disguise (no combat value), Deja Vu (pretty good for a 1st level spell), Hypercognition (combat useful if you REALLY need to know an enemy's weaknesses), Mind Fortress (the counter to the problem, in a way), Mind Shield (basically 5th ed Shield that scales poorly), Mental Block (actually really good), Mindlink (little combat use), Mindwipe (decent, basically "weird Enervate"), Node of Blasting (easier to use Explosive Runes), Placebo Effect (pretty good actually), Psychic Image (potentially great encounter buster...but the lack of Emotion component doesn't factor in since it's basically a buff spell), Psychic Surgery (useful out of combat), Synapse Overload (psychic Boneshatter, but better), Synaptic Pulse (pretty good), Telepathy (cast before combat, if it factors in at all), Thought Echo (useless in combat), Thought Shield (okay), and finally Tower of Iron Will (niche).

The main problem 3/4 of these are out of combat spells (rarely where you'll have an issue with Emotion components), and only about 1/2 the remainder, if that, are good enough to say "Wow, I want to spend a spell known on that!".

So yeah, I exaggerated a bit, but not by too much I think.

[Bucky]

Eh, they only need a couple of spells (say, Intellect Fortress and Greater Synaptic Pulse) to not be useless, even if they're performing like a mere tier 4 for the duration.

[upho]

@Gnaeus: as I mentioned in the barb etc thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21788002&postcount=72), it might be a good idea to clearly state in the OP that JaronK's original Tier System has been tweaked and that people should read up on the new stuff before voting (provided you intended us to use the same system as in eggynack's 3.5 threads of course). That is, I believe it may impact the discussion and the voting depending on whether people are aware of the changes being introduced by this part of the 3.5 retiering voting instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515845-Retiering-the-Classes-Home-Base&p=21722272#post21722272) :

"A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked."

At least in theory, what eggynack says in this post basically means that for example a hypothetical class that is extremely versatile and strong in basically all situations might be T2 despite not reaching game-breaking power within any one specific area. Likewise, I think the following (from the same post) is important to keep in mind:

"And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high."


My Votes:
Sorcerer T1. I think the edition changes are enough to break the tier boundary. Specifically, crafting feats are now available, a lot more spells known per level if you include favored class, bonus feats and actual class features all help the sorcerer in the comparisons. Also, Paragon Surge is there if needed.

Oracle T1. (Although bottom). Exactly the same analysis as sorcerer. If you took the favored soul, made it SAD, almost doubled its spells known and let it convert to cures, added 6 powerful scaling spell likes and paragon surge, you get the oracle.I really think these two, or at least the sorcerer, should be split into two entries depending on the human FCB and potentially some other choices (Lunar/Lore oracle?) which significantly increases power. Personally, I think for example a human sorcerer with Paragon Surge and a strong bloodline (like arcane) is T1, while say an elf sorcerer without Paragon Surge and with a weak bloodline is probably T2. And while you may try to nail down the theoretical average of the class, it wouldn't illustrate how much the real power of the sorcerer actually differs depending on one or two very specific choices. I'd like to wait on voting before split entries have been properly discussed as an alternative.

As for the two classes I'm personally more certain of:

Shaman: T1. Basically a treehugger-witch-ish prepared caster more versatile than either of its parent classes thanks to especially Wandering Spirit and changeable hexes.

Arcanist: T1. Do I really need to say why?

And finally, Psychic: ? Don't have any experience and IMO far from enough knowledge to vote.

[Gnaeus]

Fisrt, since I missed this post, how are you summoning 3 monsters off the summon monster V list? At level 10? At level 5 I'd say the summoner can do what your sorcerer can do but better. If a summoner took the master summoner archtype they would have 2 more feats then you and better spell casting as they would have only 2 less level 1 spells known if you include summon monster spell like ability which lasts 10 times longer with many more uses per day and summon monster 3 access. Instead of invisbility they could take haste for something much more powerful. They lose a bit of power the higher level you get but level 10 they are still powerful. You could probably make a case for them that they hit tier 1 if sorcerers do.

Edit: And they can use alter self better then sorcerers because they are better in melee with a d8 hitdie and 3/4 bab.

How am I not? Its a 5th level spell, which I get at level 10. I get 4 castings/day if I have a 20 cha. Normal summoners can't do that. Master summoners can get the 3 castings off, but can't do the other bits, as I said, like D Dooring to the scried target while shapeshifted and greater invisible and then D Dooring back out.

I see no conflict with an argument that Summoner is stronger at level 5. Summoner is stronger than a lot of T1 classes at level 5. Chained summoner especially. Level 1 summoner gets an eidolon, 2 spells per day, and about 9 summon monsters. Thats very probably the strongest caster in the game at that level. His weakness is in spells known/spells per day. At 10th level, he gets 5,5,4,2. Half Elf Sorc gets 8/7/6/4/1. If you adjust for summon monster, summoner gets 6/6/5/3/1. (although either one gets some advantages vs. the other. If a sorcerer wants to summon something to walk down a hall to pull a lever, or cast a low level spell effect he doesn't need to use a top level slot.) Sorc has a wider spell list, and stuff like paragon surge. At 15th level, Sorcerer gets 8/8/7/7/7/6/3 and something like 47 spells/day. Summoner gets 6/6/6/5/4/1/1/1 and something like 34 spells/day, assuming you count their SM as a spell of each level known. Chained summoner is brutally strong, which is why they rewrote the spell list. But its not sorcerer in versatility through most of the level range.

[Barstro]

Personally, I think for example a human sorcerer with Paragon Surge and a strong bloodline (like arcane) is T1

Has it been ruled that a race other than Half-Elf can cast a spell that states "personal (half-elf only)"?

[EldritchWeaver]

Has it been ruled that a race other than Half-Elf can cast a spell that states "personal (half-elf only)"?

There is a feat which allows three other races to access that spell. But in general, with such a limited access according to RAW, I don't think it should have influence in general on the tier.

[Psyren]

It does tho. It's a Polymorph spell and the Polymorph spell rules say you get water breathing if you get a swim speed. It's cited exactly earlier in the thread.

Point, but that's still self-only. It's a great spell for both of them to take, but something more situational that could help a party member would be easier for the T1 class to branch out for, particularly at low levels - things like Air Bubble or Touch of the Sea would largely be a waste of spells known on a T2 class for instance, but right at the moment you find that you need them, the T1 at least has the option.

Don't get me wrong - In practice, a sorcerer may likely end up being more useful at more tables than a wizard. The sorcerer has a higher floor I think, because playing a wizard effectively requires prepping effectively (and knowing the open slots rule, and striking the right balance of open slots to prepped ones at each level, and specializing appropriately etc.) But tier is harder to nail down - it's a level of optimization somewhere above the floor but somewhere below Uber-Commoner. I just think the mechanics of the wizard lend themselves to theoretically more diverse solutions, particularly in cases where the sorcerer's primary schtick (spammable toolboxes) can be stymied. That's the primary onus behind my rating - that and the narrow nature of some of the PF Sorcerer's stronger repertoire-broadening tricks, like Paragon Surge being race-gated.

[Bucky]

I think that Paragon Surge and Human FCB combined might put Sorcerer into the bottom of T1. But I expect very few characters to jump through the hoops to get both, so it doesn't significantly affect my vote.


This is cherry-picking a single spell that the druid happens to get, however, and using to argue something as wide-open as flexibility.

I chose that particular scenario because it was the most recent scenario from an actual campaign I was involved in where the party was severely inconvenienced for not having any T1 characters.

[Rynjin]

I think that Paragon Surge and Human FCB combined might put Sorcerer into the bottom of T1. But I expect very few characters to jump through the hoops to get both, so it doesn't significantly affect my vote.

It doesn't require any hoops. You just play a half-elf. Half-Elves can take human, half-elf, and elf Favored Class Bonuses.

But Paragon Surge is not the god-like spell it used to be, since the Feat you choose must be the same and have the same choices every time you cast it in a day.

It can be used to get around a specific problem, but unlike before you can't just have that and use all your 3rd level slots to have any spell available for any situation as needed.