OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Bluepaw]

Lean in, sister, indeed! I suddenly have the urge to hope that she somehow makes it out of this...

[littlebum2002]

Find the ship, save Roy, get the sword?



Lean in, sister!

I didn't get the joke

[Kantaki]

Sure Belkar, but their dislike for you outweights that so much they leave Haley behind just because of your proximity.:smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

"Lean in, sister!". Hilarious, and nice segue to Haley.

It appears that sexism is rampant among Frost Giants. Who could have guessed?

So the trio finding the ship will probably including finding Roy's sword, preventing a long sub-plot search for it. The question is, who is going to defeat angry Frost Giant woman? Will Elan charm her?

[Giggling Ghast]

Tiny, inconsequential, please-don't-make-this-a-huge-argument nitpick: Ship Abandoned would have been a better title.

But pretty good all the same, RB.

[monkeyslinger]

Wow! I've never had such perfect timing before! So, even among frost giants, women are pressured to not be superior to men. Sad that this is still a thing in our society.

[QUOTE=Giggling Ghast;21811007]Tiny, inconsequential, please-don't-make-this-a-huge-argument nitpick: Ship Abandoned would have been a better title.

I disagree. Ship Abandoned makes me think Haley & co. abandoned the ship instead of the other way around.

[KorvinStarmast]

As a golfer, I am only mildly disappointed that she did not yell "Fore" just prior to impact in panel 2.
Disappointment: no witty comeback from Haley when Belkar pokes her about Elan being her pet.
Last panel: enjoyed the Belkar Punchline.
Art: lovin' it.
Last point: All they have to do is CLIMB and they will find the ship. There is no "10,000foot altitude limit" on the fly spell, right?

[Shining Wrath]

Find the ship, save Roy, get the sword?




I didn't get the joke

https://books.google.com/books?id=y9_mxZLYiiMC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=lean+in+sister&source=bl&ots=ph7sgnoH93&sig=0J9LYtqpSJvbFopyqVPhVEfW1QU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRh9z9_9jSAhVK2WMKHffTC-AQ6AEIWDAJ#v=onepage&q=lean%20in%20sister&f=false

[Justyz]

Roy sure is taking a lot of damage. I wonder if V would try and locate his sword as a way of finding him? Then again hilarity will ensue.

[Kantaki]

Disappointment: no witty comeback from Haley when Belkar pokes her about Elan being her pet.

Why deny the truth?:smallamused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Why deny the truth?:smallamused: Haley's got as quick a wit and as sharp a tongue as Belkar, and a response about what Belkar and his pets do behind closed doors might have been a nice riposte ...

(Actually, she's got a quicker wit and a higher Int score ... if Geekery threads are to be believed).

[CoffeeIncluded]

Maybe the next world will have more gender equality?

[ZMiles]

Hmm. I wonder if there's a locate person type spell that could be useful here.

(Loving the action! And I like the snarky giant).

[Jasdoif]

Maybe the next world will have more gender equality?Even if it would, why wait for global annihilation? There's a world right there that could benefit from more gender equality.

[hroþila]

Tiny, inconsequential, please-don't-make-this-a-huge-argument nitpick: Ship Abandoned would have been a better title.
Disagreed! That would spoil the play on "Abandon ship", and I love the use of "abandon" as a noun.

[Lord Torath]

Whew! I was sure the title meant the end of the Mechane! :smalleek:

It's hard to tell whether Belkar's concern for the fate of all the humans is due a possible lack of human faces to stab...

Thanks, Giant!

[arrowed]

Such exciting tension! Poor caster-giants seem to have met their end at Haley and V's hands. One can only hope V didn't burn too many resources, and that they can find the ship quickly.:smallfrown:
I don't think it will go well for Roy while he's weaponless. He could use his environment to beat Thog, but pulling that trick here could be a no-sail. :smallbiggrin:
Loving the pace, feels well balanced and thrilling. Go Giant! (but not the giants)

[Rogan]

I don't know if I should feel sad for Belkar or Roy.
The one does not feel like stabbing anyone right now, the other is not able to...

Thanks Giant, it's allways a great Comic

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't know if I should feel sad for Belkar or Roy.
The one does not feel like stabbing anyone right now, the other is not able to...

Thanks Giant, it's allways a great Comic By the time they fly up and find the ship, Belkar will doubtless be in stabby mood again. His refresh rate is pretty tight.

[Grand Arbiter]

Another great comic. Thank you Mr. Burlew!
Whew! I was sure the title meant the end of the Mechane! :smalleek:

I had a very similar scare myself.

[Psyren]

Even Frost Giants struggle under the suffocating weight of the patriarchy :smalltongue:

[Crusher]

Belkar, killing it as always. In pretty much every possible way.

[Anarion]

That's a good reference from the Frost Giant. And I'd be amused and pretty happy if V actually has one of her myriad locator spells prepared (you know, from back on the ocean voyage) and can get them to the ship.

[mouser9169]

Keep an eye for a sword on your way!!!

[Doug Lampert]

By the time they fly up and find the ship, Belkar will doubtless be in stabby mood again. His refresh rate is pretty tight.Yeah, but he's faking character growth, for instance he never did kill Crystal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html).

[MoonCat]

I'm loving that new eyebrow expression V's got in the last panel!

And everything else. It's a pity even ice giants have to deal with these issues too though.

[Spellbreaker26]

That's got to be the lamest second-wind quote ever.

The bit about Belkar and Elan being a pet cracked me up though.

[denthor]

laugh worthy Belkar still has to tell jokes for a living

someone please explain lean in sister

[nyjastul69]

I think Andi's poor decisions are going to haunt them for some time.

[JumboWheat01]

You know Belkar, if you keep this worrying up, you might start working your way towards Chaotic Neutral.

[Sniffnoy]

I think the title -- taking the phrase "abandon ship" and reversing it -- is supposed to indicate that the ship abandoned them, rather than vice versa? Still pretty confusing.

[Ganbatte]

I don't get it. Why would that giant snow woman be afraid to take credit for her work and own strenght? Why would she willingly downplay herself and then blame it on her male colleagues?

Sounds kinda dumb to me.

[Spellbreaker26]

I don't get it. Why would that giant snow woman be afraid to take credit for her work and own strenght? Why would she willingly downplay herself and then blame it on her male colleagues?

Sounds kinda dumb to me.

I get the joke - that she feels sexist pressure not to overshadow her male colleagues. But it just doesn't work that well in this context; partially because the giants have gender-integrated combat units and partially because the intention of hyping up the bad situation Roy's in is unnecessary because we already know he's massively screwed.

[Dagny]

Yeah, but he's faking character growth, for instance he never did kill Crystal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html).

Is he even still faking it at this point? The whole "developing empathy for his pets and then slowly beginning to generalize that empathy to other people" thing has seemed sincere for a while now.

[Mido]

Ah, something witty and away from the whole infuriating scene. Nice change of pace. Great to get an update a bit quicker than the previous one too.

Belkar quips are back and nice to see development all around. It's pretty easy for Haley to snap back at Belkar's ill mannered snipes (the one on this page not as mean-spirited as most before. guy's developing more than he's letting on... or I'm just reading too much into things) and V hardly begrudgingly objects anymore with aiding the little devil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I get the joke - that she feels sexist pressure not to overshadow her male colleagues. But it just doesn't work that well in this context; partially because the giants have gender-integrated combat units

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

GW

[hroþila]

That they have gender-integrated combat units only means that's a particular sphere where overt, institutional sexism doesn't prevail. It doesn't say anything about more subtle forms of sexism.

[pendell]

An update! Sweet, it's like an early Christmas present! :)

Andi's bad decisions keep piling up; in the time it takes for V and company to hunt them down there's no telling how much damage the giantess will do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ChillerInstinct]

Another great comic. Thank you Mr. Burlew!

I had a very similar scare myself.

Likewise. Though I suppose, if we're about to have one Mechane "on the rocks", probably good to show that everyone else is okay first.

Presumably it won't be hard for them to catch up, either. Should be able to get enough altitude to see the Mechane with V and Haley's flight, I'd imagine, if absolutely nothing else.

[Ganbatte]

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?
And while she's the one who chooses to cave in to the pressure, rather than bringing the fight where it belongs - her own frost giant society - she chooses to bitch and complain when nobody's around to hear?

Well I guess that's frost giants for you.

[hroþila]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?
There's like a BILLION parallels with the real world. I'm confused that you find it confusing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah. It's yet another example of the glass (ice?) ceiling at work again.

[Spellbreaker26]

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?


Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of women being denied a shot at higher ranks, or maltreated off the battlefield, but that specific form of sexism seems like something that wouldn't happen on the actual battlefield.

[Unoriginal]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?

It's actually pretty common among sexist people. Expecting people of the other gender to do things for them while still thinking they're inherently inferior.



And while she's the one who chooses to cave in to the pressure, rather than bringing the fight where it belongs - her own frost giant society - she chooses to bitch and complain when nobody's around to hear?

Leaving the debate of "choosing to cave" aside, she's saying right now that it's her opportunity to go "no, he didn't do it, I did, and no one can deny it".

It could also be that Frost Giants have a culture of self-sacrifice and humility after battle/never-speak-ill-of-the-dead kind of deal (given that their god at least oppose the Northern deities who are all about glory in battle and singing your awesome deeds), and that she's sick and tired of having to credits those who were weak enough to die.



There's like a BILLION parallels with the real world. I'm confused that you find it confusing.

Well, bigotry is not rational, so trying to find the logic of it can be pretty confusing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.

[Peelee]

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

So, you're saying that for this system to be in place, a given male warrior less capable than a female warrior who is downplaying her martial prowess wouldn't last very long.

I feel like I should point out at this point that the male giant didn't last very long.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.
That's not what she said. She said that even if she does perform better, she is pressured to say that the male fighters did most of the work - i.e. she does the work, they get the medals.


I'm not ruling out the possibility of women being denied a shot at higher ranks, or maltreated off the battlefield, but that specific form of sexism seems like something that wouldn't happen on the actual battlefield.

Like hroþila said, there is plenty examples in RL of this very situation going on, in the military and in many other fields.

GW

[Spellbreaker26]

I feel like I should point out at this point that the male giant didn't last very long.

Against Roy, an incredibly good fighter with a magic sword and a magic belt.

Either way, I don't so much have a problem with the point being made so much as that it interrupted the flow of the scene in its ham-handedness.

[Spellbreaker26]

Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.

Not true, there were some clerics. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1052.html

[Jasdoif]

That they have gender-integrated combat units only means that's a particular sphere where overt, institutional sexism doesn't prevail. It doesn't say anything about more subtle forms of sexism.Like if the overall culture hasn't (yet) adapted to the introduction of gender-integrated combat units.

[Chei]

Ah, good, a brief breath of funny amidst all the Andi. I'm liking it.

Also damn, Roy. Think of something.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's clerics, not warriors, as I specifically called out.

Thinking about it, the giantess may now be the highest leveled person in the tribe. And the Jarl might've been in with those casters. Can you say promotion?

[Peelee]

Against Roy, an incredibly good fighter with a magic sword and a magic belt..

....so it wasn't a really an issue until they fought someone who made it an issue? Imean,you're kind of demolishing your own point here.

[Ganbatte]

It's actually pretty common among sexist people. Expecting people of the other gender to do things for them while still thinking they're inherently inferior.
What do you mean? She's not doing anything for them, she's fighting with them. And in a group one single weakling can mean doom for the whole party.
Remember 300, when Leonidas refused to let Ephialtes join their ranks because he was unable to cover the flank of the men beside him? That's the point. If she's perceived as a weakling fighter by them, would they let her fight with their elite ranks in the first place? No.
Which means they do know she's strong enough to pull her own weight, meaning that there's no reason for her to conceal her own strenght.
I don't know, it just makes no sense other than attempting to deliver a real-world social message that sounds kinda clumsy and awkward in this context.


It could also be that Frost Giants have a culture of self-sacrifice and humility after battle/never-speak-ill-of-the-dead kind of deal (given that their god at least oppose the Northern deities who are all about glory in battle and singing your awesome deeds), and that she's sick and tired of having to credits those who were weak enough to die.

But she's not doing that, in fact if you read the strip she's actually scorning her own God for that. What kind of frost giant is she? Does she not care for her own religion and customs as well?
And if the Frost Giant's culture is one of "humility and never speaking ill of the dead" that means all dead equally, not just because most happen to be males, meaning that her throwing a fit at Roy is totally out of personal bias there.

[PH7]

But say two male (or two female) giants had jumped on the ship. Would the superior warrior not have been unwilling to share credit anyway?
The gender divide makes it more obvious perhaps, yes. But wouldn't this whole argument have been inevitable?

[Spellbreaker26]

....so it wasn't a really an issue until they fought someone who made it an issue? Imean,you're kind of demolishing your own point here.

Why should we believe that she would have lasted long either? Roy is special - he's far above the power level that these Giants were prepared for. If he hadn't lost his sword she'd almost certainly be dead by now.

Also, on the subject of numbers, I count about 3 or 4 ladies here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1050.html

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ganbatte, have you ever seen a Lily Tomlin/Jane Fonda movie called 9 to 5? It might explain the whole concept of "woman does all the work, man gets all the credit" better than a message board can.

[Jay R]

5. Last point: All they have to do is CLIMB and they will find the ship. There is no "10,000foot altitude limit" on the fly spell, right?

The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it.

[Peelee]

Why should we believe that she would have lasted long either? Roy is special - he's far above the power level that these Giants were prepared for. If he hadn't lost his sword she'd almost certainly be dead by now.

So if they fight people stronger then they are, it doesn't matter, and if they fight people weaker than they are, I think we can safely assume it doesn't matter.... so this system would only mean that the less competent wouldn't last long with the other one holding back, but only for a narrow range of skilled enemies?

[MoonCat]

See, in an environment where any weak links could be considered unacceptable, women taking their own fair share of credit might still be seen as being the weak link and being 'pushy,' because of unconscious biases on the part of their, let's say, managers.

And in this case, holding back could also be read as letting her male cohort take the lead, so she wouldn't be seen as 'bossy,' which might have meant following his sub-par commands in a case where she could have defeated Roy better in another way.

These are all distinct real life parallels, and sadly, the mere fact that they are in a gender-integrated workplace, even one that relies on everyone doing their best, does not save it from having these issues.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Either way, I don't so much have a problem with the point being made so much as that it interrupted the flow of the scene in its ham-handedness.


I don't know, it just makes no sense other than attempting to deliver a real-world social message that sounds kinda clumsy and awkward in this context.

These two comments remind me so much of the "complaints" about "bad writing" in the comic where Bandana off-handedly mentioned having had a girlfriend that I think I'll bow out of this conversation right now.

GW

[Spellbreaker26]

So if they fight people stronger then they are, it doesn't matter, and if they fight people weaker than they are, I think we can safely assume it doesn't matter.... so this system would only mean that the less competent wouldn't last long with the other one holding back, but only for a narrow range of skilled enemies?

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about.

Random chance can affect anyone, so in war you have to be going all-out during battle (within reason, i.e. keeping within rules of war).

Anything less is not only putting yourself in danger but your comrades as well. Whether you're fighting stronger or weaker enemies, the result of going at less than all-out means a higher chance of death.

*Neither* of them would last long if either held back.

Either way, I don't see this discussion going anywhere particularly enlightening, so the upshot is
"Laugh at the funny sexy shoeless god of war"

[Peelee]

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about.

Random chance can affect anyone, so in war you have to be going all-out during battle (within reason, i.e. keeping within rules of war).

Anything less is not only putting yourself in danger but your comrades as well. Whether you're fighting stronger or weaker enemies, the result of going at less than all-out means a higher chance of death.

*Neither* of them would last long if either held back.

OK, I can break it down for you. You said, "having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518373-OOTS-1068-The-Discussion-Thread/page2&p=21811511#post21811511)"

Except that you also say that Roy is so powerful that they both wouldn't last long anyway. And if the giants fight anyone weaker than the weakest giant, then they would likely both survive. So, you are saying that the giants won't last very long, but only against a very specific level of enemy.

Better?

[SaintRidley]

I get the joke - that she feels sexist pressure not to overshadow her male colleagues. But it just doesn't work that well in this context; partially because the giants have gender-integrated combat units and partially because the intention of hyping up the bad situation Roy's in is unnecessary because we already know he's massively screwed.

We have a gender-integrated work force, but this is still a real thing in real world workplaces anyway. The joke works perfectly well because it mirrors the real world perfectly. And that's sad.

[Quibblicious]

Find the ship, save Roy, get the sword?


(re: lean in)

I didn't get the joke

I had to google it.

Still not 100% sure I got it right. Must've failed my bardic knowledge check.

Q

[Jasdoif]

*Neither* of them would last long if either held back.That is indeed the problem being expressed: one of them held back, and the other didn't last.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I didn't quite get the "Lean in" part of the joke, but the rest of it was hilarious and sadly far too relevant. I hope that when Thyrm remakes the world, he makes it a more equal one.

Also, those last panels remind me of that sinking feeling one gets when late and having missed the only form of transportation available.

[Knaight]

This makes no sense. Her comment only works if she's in an integrated combat unit. Her complaint is that there is pressure put on her to not overshadow less-able male fighters. If there weren't integrated combat units, how would she be pressured to not overshadow male fighters she doesn't fight next to?

I wouldn't say that. There need to be both male and female fighters/raiders/whatever, but if the individual combat units weren't integrated it's not like it would be that hard for the same pressure to show up in a slightly different form regarding an all female unit outperforming an all male unit.

[FlawedParadigm]

Maybe the next world will have more gender equality?

Ah, that's it. The Order will fail and the new world the Gods create will be an idealistic version of our world, which is why the Rift World isn't ours.

[Ganbatte]

See, in an environment where any weak links could be considered unacceptable, women taking their own fair share of credit might still be seen as being the weak link and being 'pushy,' because of unconscious biases on the part of their, let's say, managers.

And in this case, holding back could also be read as letting her male cohort take the lead, so she wouldn't be seen as 'bossy,' which might have meant following his sub-par commands in a case where she could have defeated Roy better in another way.

These are all distinct real life parallels, and sadly, the mere fact that they are in a gender-integrated workplace, even one that relies on everyone doing their best, does not save it from having these issues.

Regardless it's her own choice to take the road of "sucking it up and play low" instead of fighting the fight where it belongs. If she's as strong as she claims then she could easily duel her male colleagues or prove her worth in ways that cannot be ignored by her elders, but she apparently didn't do that.
What's certain is that throwing a fit at Roy berating her culture and God won't help.
I don't know if you watched the movie G.I. Jane but that's the correct approach to take in these situations. Less whining, more acting.


That is indeed the problem being expressed: one of them held back, and the other didn't last.

Maybe if she hadn't held back she could've saved her comrade and proved herself to be a valid asset. Just a thought.

[Unoriginal]

What do you mean? She's not doing anything for them, she's fighting with them.

And is expected to give them the credit.


Think of this like that: there is a group project in an office, with a sexist guy and a woman having to work together. The woman does her share, and even more when the guy dumps his work on her, then once she's finished the guy go "well, took you long enough", go to the boss and claim all the credit, downplaying the woman's part in everything.



And in a group one single weakling can mean doom for the whole party.

She wasn't pretending to be weak, she was pretending to be on the same level as her male peers, presumably because Frost Giant female fighters are expected to not overshadow them.





Which means they do know she's strong enough to pull her own weight, meaning that there's no reason for her to conceal her own strenght.

She was clearly known to pull her own weight, but seemingly hid that she was better than this.




I don't know, it just makes no sense other than attempting to deliver a real-world social message that sounds kinda clumsy and awkward in this context.

I admit it's a bit awkward, but I think it's because it's due to the pacing of how it was delivered.




But she's not doing that, in fact if you read the strip she's actually scorning her own God for that. What kind of frost giant is she? Does she not care for her own religion and customs as well?

As I said, she apparently had enough of the parts of her religion and customs that are putting her at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean she disagree about the rest.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe if she hadn't held back she could've saved her comrade and proved herself to be a valid asset.The lack thereof is the problem being expressed, yes.

[Unoriginal]

Regardless it's her own choice to take the road of "sucking it up and play low" instead of fighting the fight where it belongs. If she's as strong as she claims then she could easily duel her male colleagues

Evil Giant society. They could just slit her throat in her sleep, if she does too much waves. Even if she's tough, there is a lot more of them than there is of her, so if they're pissed enough they can dispose of her.



or prove her worth in ways that cannot be ignored by her elders, but she apparently didn't do that.

She's doing this right now.



What's certain is that throwing a fit at Roy berating her culture and God won't help.

Mid-combat banter isn't about helping, it's about venting




Maybe if she didn't hold back she could've saved her comrade and proved herself to be a valid asset. Just a thought.

Again, Evil Giant society.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wouldn't say that. There need to be both male and female fighters/raiders/whatever, but if the individual combat units weren't integrated it's not like it would be that hard for the same pressure to show up in a slightly different form regarding an all female unit outperforming an all male unit.

Slightly different is the key - in WW2, Russia had all-female flying teams (the infamous Night Witches), who got the worst equipment and fairly bad missions, so that even if they were better than male pilots, they'd never get the chance to shine.

In an integrated team, the mission, equipment and other crucial variables are much harder to segregate - therefore the better fighter would shine... which is why in this case, pressure is put specifically on the female to not claim any kills she does make.

The specific sexist issue here is when females are pressured into extol a male's performance above her own by giving him credit for her work - that is only possible if they are both in the same situation at the same time - i.e. a mixed team.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

This is indeed very much like the reaction when Bandana casually mentioned a female ex.

What I'm wondering is how long it will take the people with these objections to realize that the never-reminds-them-LGBT-people-exist-and-sexism-is-real-and-bad comic they were reading is never coming back.

[Ganbatte]

Unoriginal I'm not gonna respond to pyramids of text. No offence I just don't like that sort of discussing. All I'll say is that a "group office project" is an entirely unrelatable and different situation than a fighting with your life on the line in a fantasy setting.
Honestly that's the problem with most "social messages" like these, they tend to forget that the setting of this story makes them look kinda wacky considering what's actually at work most of the times.


She's doing this right now.
She let all her comrades die by playing low against an obviously strong opponent then after their defeat she's going all out. Honestly I'd demote her or worse if I was an Elder of an evil Frost Giant society as you say. It's moronic beyond belief in terms of fighting and clearly, clearly shows that her emotional state makes her non-viable as part of a fighting team.

[Keltest]

She let all her comrades die by playing low against an obviously strong opponent then after their defeat she's going all out. Honestly I'd demote her or worse if I was an Elder of an evil Frost Giant society as you say. It's moronic beyond belief in terms of fighting and clearly, clearly shows that her emotional state makes her non-viable as part of a fighting team.

Agreed. Letting a male warrior take credit for your work is entirely different from deliberately holding back so as to not upstage them, even if they do stem from a similar societal problem. The former is significantly more plausible than the latter, but is not what is going on here.

[Snails]

Random chance can affect anyone, so in war you have to be going all-out during battle (within reason, i.e. keeping within rules of war).

Anything less is not only putting yourself in danger but your comrades as well. Whether you're fighting stronger or weaker enemies, the result of going at less than all-out means a higher chance of death.


Real people are not necessarily practical and rational in that way. Sometimes it is for a very good reason: they fear the wrath of the their leaders far more than the danger posed by their enemies. That can be perfectly rational, for the individual.

There is risk to doing stupid things, but sometimes that is the only path out of a 100% certain lose-lose scenario: damned if I outperform my male colleagues, damned if I die. By sandbagging, she gets a real chance of both winning laurels (even if an unfairly small share) and not getting exiled.

In terms of not trying all out, something similar can happen at the highest levels of strategy, too. Fearful of sudden defeat or even fearful of one's own generals, a ruler may keep the best loyal troops far away from battle. Of course, that can create a track record of death by a thousand losses, where the bad troops know they are considered expendable because they are. It also makes the ruler absolutely terrified of losing control of his precious few loyal quality troops, after so many losses. Example: Arguably the Nationalist Chinese purposefully kept their precious few good divisions away from the battles with the Communists, until the war was decided by little loss after little loss, and those elite well-equipped well-trained troops never got to do anything but cover a retreat to Taiwan.

[MoonCat]

Regardless it's her own choice to take the road of "sucking it up and play low" instead of fighting the fight where it belongs. If she's as strong as she claims then she could easily duel her male colleagues or prove her worth in ways that cannot be ignored by her elders, but she apparently didn't do that.
What's certain is that throwing a fit at Roy berating her culture and God won't help.
I don't know if you watched the movie G.I. Jane but that's the correct approach to take in these situations. Less whining, more acting.

It seems evident that you have never been in this type of a situation. Fighting with your colleagues is just as easily described as being unprofessional behaviour when they're supposed to be working as a team. She could just as easily get called an insecure woman being unnecessarily aggressive because she wants to prove herself for attempting such a thing.

In terms of proving herself to her elders, the whole point is that she is not seen as an equal by her elders despite being equal or better than her colleagues. You can't tell someone to prove themselves equal by being good at what they do when their issue is that their being good at what they do is ignored.

I find it interesting that you call her behaviour 'throwing a fit.' She is a warrior in combat, showing the same aggression literally every other fighter is. Why is she the one throwing a fit? How is it different from any other wordy war-cry we've seen in OoTS?

I have not seen G.I. Jane, but how is anything of what this ice giant has done whining? She is competently kicking Roy's butt right now, while also talking as a free action, in a way that is hardly whining but sounds exactly like all the other combat-banter we've seen in OoTS. What is she doing wrong here?

[Shining Wrath]

There is exactly one person who knows the details of Frost Giant society and its gender roles: Rich Burlew.
And he has told you that from the perspective of Fur Bikini Giant, she is expected to give credit for her achievements to less-capable men. And that she has to not display greater competence, which is somewhat different than using greater competence.

Now, she may be exaggerating. And the difference between her best effort, and her not-showing-up-the-men effort, may be 1% or less. Or huge. We don't know.

Nonetheless, she has told us that her society pressures her to be subservient to men. And the only person who knows how true that is, is the person who those words in her mouth.

It's not just seen in the male-female context. For example, in In the Heart of the Sea we saw how there was pressure on the mate to not display greater competence than the captain, because of family status, even though having a ship sink in the middle of the ocean is a survival matter. Similar things have happened in armies where the officers were of noble birth and the non-coms were not; or in armies where the officers went to college and the non-coms did not.

Since we can establish from observing our real world that people of lower status are expected to not show up people of higher status in life or death situations, we can believe the giantess that such a thing happens in OotS-world without any quibbling or complaint. If she becomes a recurring character we may learn whether or not she's exaggerating the level of sexism she faces, but no one should doubt that real-world people are willing to die in order to maintain rank and status.

[Ruslan]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strength? How does that work?
Same way it does in the real world. Most on this board could recognize the blindingly-obvious parallels. It was a good allegory. Well played, Giant!

[Ganbatte]

It seems evident that you have never been in this type of a situation. Fighting with your colleagues is just as easily described as being unprofessional behaviour when they're supposed to be working as a team.

Then earn the trust of your team. Beat them up (friendly) sometimes. Save their lifes a few times. Sometimes play it slightly low, sometimes show them you're worthy of respect by kicking their faces to the ground. Show them you're not what they believe or would like you to be.
If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.
If they believe you to be a weakling and want you to fit that status the worst possible thing you can do is kneel down and act like the weakling they see. You'll never earn anything like that.


She could just as easily get called an insecure woman being unnecessarily aggressive because she wants to prove herself for attempting such a thing.

Then succeed and put all that to silence. As a wise guy said "Talking is free action".


I find it interesting that you call her behaviour 'throwing a fit.' She is a warrior in combat, showing the same aggression literally every other fighter is. Why is she the one throwing a fit? How is it different from any other wordy war-cry we've seen in OoTS?

Because unlike all the other warrios her aggression is entirely directed at herself and her colleagues/society. It's like she's not even seeing Roy there, so it's totally throwing a fit.

[Adeptus]

I have a feeling there will be no showdown with Xykon in the near future.

[Spellbreaker26]

I have a feeling there will be no showdown with Xykon in the near future.

But I mean, that would be the end of the comic.

Priorities:
1. Get to the dwarves and stop Durkon*
2. Get to the North Pole and reunite with O-Chul and Lien.
3. Stop Xykon.

It's one thing to say "gosh, they've been fighting the giants a while". It's another to say "when is this oveeeer".

[Snails]

Since we can establish from observing our real world that people of lower status are expected to not show up people of higher status in life or death situations, we can believe the giantess that such a thing happens in OotS-world without any quibbling or complaint.

Indeed.

There have been airliner crashes where the 1st mate thought the captain was probably making an error, but kept his mouth tight shut because embarrassing his higher status boss would be too painful. Or it seemed so in the moment.

These are incidents where people died and potentially every life on board the airplane could have been lost. We know the details because enough of the crew survived to validate that the instruments said what they were supposed to say, and at least one member of the flight crew noticed as much as the danger approached.

This has happened multiple times. It happened at SFO not very many years ago with a Korean airliner.

[Ganbatte]

This is indeed very much like the reaction when Bandana casually mentioned a female ex.

What I'm wondering is how long it will take the people with these objections to realize that the never-reminds-them-LGBT-people-exist-and-sexism-is-real-and-bad comic they were reading is never coming back.

Heh. Probably the same it'll take for people to realize that hand-waving someone's points and arguments doesn't make them disappear.

[hroþila]

Then earn the trust of your team. Beat them up (friendly) sometimes. Save their lifes a few times. Sometimes play it slightly low, sometimes show them you're worthy of respect by kicking their faces to the ground. Show them you're not what they believe or would like you to be.
If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.
If they believe you to be a weakling and want you to fit that status the worst possible thing you can do is kneel down and act like the weakling they see. You'll never earn anything like that.



Then succeed and put all that to silence. As a wise guy said "Talking is free action".



Because unlike all the other warrios her aggression is entirely directed at herself and her colleagues/society. It's like she's not even seeing Roy there, so it's totally throwing a fit.
"Why don't you just overcome sexism and be done with it?"

[Joerg]

Hmm, I would not have expected that frost giantess to be someone who downplays her own abilities because of social pressure. But then, I didn't know much about her and even less about frost giant society.

It's somehow sad that she was holding back and that perhaps contributed to the death of her colleague. Also that she seems to be more concerned with these issues than with that death. But then, perhaps the death isn't that terrible because of a probable "raise dead" spell. Or perhaps she really hated him?

Anyway, it's difficult for me to imagine that if I was fighting together with someone and he was killed (and it was partially my fault) my primary thought would be "finally I can show how good I am at fighting". I guess frost giantesses in OotS world are too far away from my own experiences.

[Basement Cat]

The Title "Ship Abandon" made me wonder if someone's romance (Elan and Haley's?) was about to come to an abrupt halt. *phew* Dodged that bullet! :smallsmile:

I don't get the "Lean in" comment either. :smallconfused:

My Playground sense is tingling: I detect many pages of Frost Giant gender culture debates to come!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Rogar Demonblud]

The point of this sexist behavior, Ganbatte, is that you will not earn anything no matter what you do. Which makes it the by far much easier course to just knuckle under. and accept that you will get jack squat no matter what you do.

[happycrow]

The Giant's opponent is disarmed.

She could be hell on wheels. She could be full of unearned resentments.

We don't know.

Meanwhile, the joke was hilarious if you've lived in the appropriate RL social contexts.
Don't get why this is even a debate.

[Jasdoif]

If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.What if they do have a choice? Say, if they have enough influence with your commander to get you demoted/terminated, or if your commander is the one expecting you to conform to their expectations in the first place?

It's still an inefficient way for them to go about doing things, but it's often amazing how far people go to reinforce their own notions of how the world is.

[Unoriginal]

Then earn the trust of your team. Beat them up (friendly) sometimes. Save their lifes a few times. Sometimes play it slightly low, sometimes show them you're worthy of respect by kicking their faces to the ground. Show them you're not what they believe or would like you to be.
If given no choice, eventually, they'll learn to accept who you actually are.
If they believe you to be a weakling and want you to fit that status the worst possible thing you can do is kneel down and act like the weakling they see. You'll never earn anything like that.

That's what they want. You to earn nothing.

They're not going to be fair, nor to acknowledge you did a good job, nor that you're worthy of respect.

To put this in perspective: when sexist guys see a man outdone by a woman, do you think they'd go "ahaha, you were beaten by a girl" or "whoa, this woman is awesome"?


Then succeed and put all that to silence.

A woman succeeding isn't going to make sexist bigots stop talking about how inferior she is. Bigotry is not rational.



Because unlike all the other warrios her aggression is entirely directed at herself and her colleagues/society. It's like she's not even seeing Roy there, so it's totally throwing a fit.

"I'm going to kill every single on of you to prove those jerks I'm awesome" while unleashing deadly force on an unarmed combatant is not directing her aggression toward the people on the Mechane?

[hroþila]

In addition to the other points being raised, a woman succeeding is not going to change their worldview. In a weird way, it's going to reinforce it: if she actually manages to gain the men's respect (and thus move beyond the "haha, you were beaten by a girl!" thing), that woman will be seen as praiseworthy, but also as exceptional, extraordinary, a manly woman. It takes a lot more momentum to change such a worldview.

[Ganbatte]

Hmm, I would not have expected that frost giantess to be someone who downplays her own abilities because of social pressure. But then, I didn't know much about her and even less about frost giant society.

It's somehow sad that she was holding back and that perhaps contributed to the death of her colleague. Also that she seems to be more concerned with these issues than with that death. But then, perhaps the death isn't that terrible because of a probable "raise dead" spell. Or perhaps she really hated him?

Anyway, it's difficult for me to imagine that if I was fighting together with someone and he was killed (and it was partially my fault) my primary thought would be "finally I can show how good I am at fighting". I guess frost giantesses in OotS world are too far away from my own experiences.

Well... she is a frost giant, that is, not exactly big on the smarts department. :smallbiggrin:
In a way it's actually a pretty realistic characterization overall. She has the means to change things but doesn't realize it, and takes it out venting on everything thus indirectly punching Roy harder.


The point of this sexist behavior, Ganbatte, is that you will not earn anything no matter what you do. Which makes it the by far much easier course to just knuckle under. and accept that you will get jack squat no matter what you do.

Yeah no. There used to be a time when sexism made it impossible for women to vote, talk or even go out alone.
You do can change things, but first you have to act. Abiding the rules by playing the weakling while whining that things don't turn around by themselves magically isn't gonna work.

[KorvinStarmast]

The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it. And it's still moving.
Just a quick question: how much airborne aerial reconnaissance have you flown IRL? Think three dimensionally ...

[aurilee]

makes them look kinda wacky

What?! A webcomic being wacky?! Say it ain't so!

That's the point. It's a joke.

She's describing a real situation that can happen when women are working with men, but applying it to a medieval fantasy elite giant fighting squad where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (it makes a little sense, but it's a bit harder to apply it one-for-one here).

Contradictions = jokes = funny

*sigh*

EDIT: Just want to also point out here that as a woman who works in the technology sector in a technical capacity, I can vouch for this situation being very real and present in our society. Yes, the "right" thing to do can be to speak out and fight back, but it can be difficult when you have a family depending on you to bring home that paycheque and sometimes you just want to keep your head down and carry on carrying on. It's hard to fight back when you feel completely and utterly isolated (because there is literally no other woman in your department), so let's cut this giantess some slack here. Fighting back is great, but it's something that you have to work up to and not just a switch you turn on.

[KorvinStarmast]

Contradictions = jokes = funny
*sigh* Well described, not to mention Rich trolled the board beautifully with this strip ... some people bit.

I think that Shining Wrath made the best point in a single post in the back and forth bickering.

I am pretty sure Rich never served in the military, so I don't think the point he is making is based on that sub culture. I had the experience of serving while American military culture change from 1976 to 2015 ... and it changed a lot, which included a whole lot of progress for women getting to play a larger role in the line units. Culture change takes time, but change can happen if the leadership is willing to make it a priority.

Back on topic: I am not sure how motivated OoTSverse Frost Giant leadership is to change, nor how open they are to change. If she dies in this fight, which seems likely, the ruling council may only see this as "one more soldier lost" ... and never have appreciated what talent they had in the first place.

[Ganbatte]

What?! A webcomic being wacky?! Say it ain't so!

That's the point. It's a joke.

She's describing a real situation that can happen when women are working with men, but applying it to a medieval fantasy elite giant fighting squad where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (it makes a little sense, but it's a bit harder to apply it one-for-one here).

Contradictions = jokes = funny

*sigh*

Wacky in terms of narrative, not comic effect. It feels very goofy to try to parallel real life job situations to... giants killing people with axes.
Especially when the situation and what the giantess is saying directly contradict each other.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah no. There used to be a time when sexism made it impossible for women to vote, talk or even go out alone.
You do can change things, but first you have to act. Abiding the rules by playing the weakling while whining that things don't turn around by themselves magically isn't gonna work.

And women acted for centuries, without much of a change. A major factor why the Western cultures are less sexist than before nowadays is because the successive World Wars resulted in a relative shift in power due to the sheer number of men who died, snowballing into cultural changes and eventually into societal changes.


There as been many great female rulers, and revolutionaries, and artists, and scientists. They didn't make sexist people see women as equal or deserving rights.

[PH7]

Well described, not to mention Rich trolled the board beautifully with this strip ... some people bit.


Exactly. Let's face it, that scene contributes nothing to the story. It's not like there's a 'resolve gender issues in the frost giant tribe' quest coming up. The OotS has too much on their plate as it is...

[KorvinStarmast]

And women acted for centuries, without much of a change. A major factor why the Western cultures are less sexist than before nowadays is because the successive World Wars resulted in a relative shift in power due to the sheer number of men who died, snowballing into cultural changes and eventually into societal changes.
I will suggest to you that there is a correlation between today's strip and the following fact:

As a result of our efforts, the week of March 8th (International Women’s Day) was officially designated as National Women’s History Week. (http://www.nwhp.org/about-2/our-history/)

[Tyrannosaurus]

Regardless it's her own choice to take the road of "sucking it up and play low" instead of fighting the fight where it belongs. If she's as strong as she claims then she could easily duel her male colleagues or prove her worth in ways that cannot be ignored by her elders, but she apparently didn't do that.
What's certain is that throwing a fit at Roy berating her culture and God won't help.
I don't know if you watched the movie G.I. Jane but that's the correct approach to take in these situations. Less whining, more acting.


Maybe if she hadn't held back she could've saved her comrade and proved herself to be a valid asset. Just a thought.

That's implying that the Frost Giant society more merit based than political. It's entirely possible that her "colleague" was of a much higher social standing, possibly even the son of the elder. So exceeding expectations and making herself look good would come at the cost of making someone rather powerful and important look bad. Making those kinds of people look bad usually bodes ill for your life prospects. Kings, rulers, and elders like people who are very competent at what they do. You know what they hate? People who are so good at what they do they upset the social status quo and threaten their position either directly or indirectly.

[RogueCookie]

Giant: "I'm going to write in a joke about real-world sexism, which will A: be funny in context, and B: piss off some people enough that they spend literal PAGES in the Discussion Thread arguing either that sexism in the workplace isn't a thing and they don't want to see it in their webcomic because it's their safe space and seeing things which imply dissenting views upsets them, or it is a thing and women are addressing it wrong, or it is a thing but they don't want to see it in their webcomic because it's their safe space and seeing things which make them uncomfortable upsets them."

B is probably incidental.

[dtilque]

Also, note that she's the only female frost giant warrior we've seen.


Not true, there were some clerics. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1052.html

One female cleric, one female guard (the archer). You can tell the guard isn't a cleric because of her lack of holy symbol pendant.

And there were other females among the giants. I didn't do a census, but roughly half were female.

[Unoriginal]

I will suggest to you that there is a correlation between today's strip and the following fact:

As a result of our efforts, the week of March 8th (International Women’s Day) was officially designated as National Women’s History Week. (http://www.nwhp.org/about-2/our-history/)

You'll note that this effort started in the 80s, which, while certainly not an egalitarian time period, was still decades after that society in the US changed to allow more (not much, but more than before) freedom and recognition to women.

[Ganbatte]

That's implying that the Frost Giant society more merit based than political. It's entirely possible that her "colleague" was of a much higher social standing, possibly even the son of the elder. So exceeding expectations and making herself look good would come at the cost of making someone rather powerful and important look bad. Making those kinds of people look bad usually bodes ill for your life prospects. Kings, rulers, and elders like people who are very competent at what they do. You know what they hate? People who are so good at what they do they upset the social status quo and threaten their position either directly or indirectly.

"...So I just stood back and let them all die." :smallcool:

Great plan! That'll surely bode well to the figures of power.

[Unoriginal]

Letting your rivals die in combat is a oft-used tactic.

[Euclidodese]

"I feel a great disturbance in the tumblrsphere, as if millions of bingo-wings slapped together in half-understood support and were instantly sighed at."

[Mido]

Not sure if this will help the current overarching discussion about sexism parallels in the comic but I'll give it a whirl.

First, I can't find it for now, but a good example of this sort of thing comes in the form of the backstory of the stock barbarian character in the Pathfinder handbook. Can't remember her name but I barely recall that she has sort of a similar situation. Male dominated society, absurdly strong female character sent on a suicide mission she succeeds in, survives, finds out before she returns that she was sent to die in that mission and leaves her tribe to adventure... Hopefully if anybody here has a copy of that can proof read if I got all the important plot details correctly.

Second, prose, even in a brief manner, might just be a good place to put in parallels to things that cause problems in RL. Kinda like how comedy sometimes pokes fun at the flawed things that happen in RL as well. Good comedians poke fun at that and make the audience think, thereby facilitating a non-hostile way of instilling a conflicting idea over somebody's bias barrier.

Third... well, I don't really have a third. I just wish I could put a link on that first point. I really think that would be a good parallel. I guess my real third is that, acting up against injustice is fine and all, but is it economical? People aren't just symbols against oppression, inequality and injustice, they're just people too. Much like I don't expect Uncle Myrtok or Aarindarius to just drop everything and help the Order wholeheartedly if the Order were to ask for it because they're basically people with nuanced motivations and not just cardboard cutout deus ex machina's, It's also not that easy to just rise up against these injustices because situations and truth are always just very nuanced. RL gets in the way, families to feed, lives to get back to and all that.

edit:
Also, I'd like to assert that lady frost giant is not in fact whining but possibly expressing self confirming righteous indignation because if we were to buy in to the premise that she is under workplace bias duress, this is a great chance for her to succeed at her job with very little to no conflicting point to prove otherwise since the only other voice that can make assertions on what happened is dead... Unless her bosses comes back with the whole "maybe her partner softened them up for her" schtick though. Damn.

[Gusion]

New comic is up.

Is OOTS going the way of Sinfest?

I mean, that's totally Rich's call. His comic strip after all. Just wondering.

[Ornithologist]

Priorities:
1. Get to the dwarves and stop Durkon*
2. Get to the North Pole and reunite with O-Chul and Lien.
3. Stop Xykon.


Don't forget priority 1.5 - Rez Durkon Classic so the team has their needed Cleric.

[Zernin]

Like hroþila said, there is plenty examples in RL of this very situation going on, in the military and in many other fields.


There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.

[Unoriginal]

Is OOTS going the way of Sinfest?

I mean, that's totally Rich's call. His comic strip after all. Just wondering.

Please, it's not because an author bring up those issues that they're going the Sinfest road.

Beside, Rich actually seems informed about the issues at hand and is actually a coherent storyteller. There isn't going to be something to the level of "there is a slave market operating in the open in the middle of the city and none of the protagonists care or do much about it."

[hroþila]

There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.
Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?

[Grand Arbiter]

First, I can't find it for now, but a good example of this sort of thing comes in the form of the backstory of the stock barbarian character in the Pathfinder handbook. Can't remember her name but I barely recall that she has sort of a similar situation. Male dominated society, absurdly strong female character sent on a suicide mission she succeeds in, survives, finds out before she returns that she was sent to die in that mission and leaves her tribe to adventure... Hopefully if anybody here has a copy of that can proof read if I got all the important plot details correctly.

...

I just wish I could put a link on that first point.
...


Did somebody wish for a link? (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Amiri)

[mr-mercer]

I don't have any particular issues with our giantess's rant, though I do have to wonder what the point of it was narratively speaking. I don't think we'd get this tiny insight into giant culture if we weren't going to see more of it later, though I can't say I'm especially interested in following that train: as at least one other person has said, the order has enough on its plate right now that another subplot would be kind of silly at this stage. Still, you never know what might happen.

More than anything, I'm unjustifiably salty about the fact that Roy's sword apparently doesn't have the returning property: political discussion is all well and good, but a guy with a big sword laying waste to his enemies is what really hai yais my forces. Though admittedly I'm a person with very limited tastes, so this shouldn't reflect on what Rich does in the future.

[KorvinStarmast]

You'll note that this effort started in the 80s, which, while certainly not an egalitarian time period, was still decades after that society in the US changed to allow more (not much, but more than before) freedom and recognition to women. We are in violent agreement. I was in high school when "I Am Woman" was a hit song on the radio. Bra burning was a big deal a few years before that ... but your (I think it was you) point on Rosie the riveter was not being argued against.

[Mido]

Did somebody wish for a link? (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Amiri)Holy crap, you're my hero!

Been looking for that for quite a while. I must be going through hypoglycemia because wow, did not even register to try the pathfinder wikia. That and I couldn't remember her name. :smallsigh:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm impressed that we managed to turn this into such a debate. I don't think that this needs to be a deep dive into the society of Frost Giants. Clearly, there's some kind of sexist pressure on the Frost Giant that makes her unwilling to be at the front of combat, and while you can argue that it doesn't make much sense, there's a lot that makes little sense about sexism. But that's really besides the point. The joke doesn't need to be examined in some wider cultural context; clearly all it is is a joke about sexism in the real world. And as someone who thought that strip #959 may have been a little awkward, but definitely still enjoyed, this strip really was not that awkward at all.

[Zernin]

Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?

How many more Straw People are we going to have set up in this thrad about how Word of Giant makes it so that this character faces sexism in an attempt to invalidate discussion? Nobody has ever argued that to not be the case. People are stating that it feels forced. So I guess I should thank you for proving the point by invoking that fact that the truth of the situation is indeed locked in by the author? :smallconfused:

[Finagle]

Oh, no. The author went full SJW. You never go full SJW.

[Ganbatte]

I don't have any particular issues with our giantess's rant, though I do have to wonder what the point of it was narratively speaking.

Probably none. Sometimes the Giant likes to jump out from the OOts-verse and steer into teaching class for a few seconds. I wouldn't look too deep into it honestly in terms of storytelling.

[Themrys]

This nicely illustrates how all men profit from patriarchy - even Roy profited from her holding back and he doesn't even belong to the same species! (Her colleague is dead, but he profited insofar as he did not look bad, I suppose that is more important to frost giants than not dying.)

[Jasdoif]

I don't have any particular issues with our giantess's rant, though I do have to wonder what the point of it was narratively speaking.I'm fairly sure it was a setup for the cutaway to Haley....Something which would have flowed better if Haley's part wasn't such an opaque reference to a book title that it felt like something's missing without prior knowledge of said book and title.

[Euclidodese]

This nicely illustrates how all men profit from patriarchy - even Roy profited from her holding back and he doesn't even belong to the same species! (Her colleague is dead, but he profited insofar as he did not look bad, I suppose that is more important to frost giants than not dying.)

Wait... 1980's gender politics is back? Oh my god... My time machine worked!

[Zernin]

Probably none. Sometimes the Giant likes to jump out from the OOts-verse and steer into teaching class for a few seconds. I wouldn't look too deep into it honestly in terms of storytelling.

There is some argument for it supporting the reason why Roy wasn't just getting his ass kicked from square one, but its also arguable that loosing his sword should be enough to suspend disbelief.

[Burner28]

Great strip as usual.


You know Belkar, if you keep this worrying up, you might start working your way towards Chaotic Neutral.

I doubt that is going to happen

[hroþila]

How many more Straw People are we going to have set up in this thrad about how Word of Giant makes it so that this character faces sexism in an attempt to invalidate discussion? Nobody has ever argued that to not be the case. People are stating that it feels forced. So I guess I should thank you for proving the point by invoking that fact that the truth of the situation is indeed locked in by the author? :smallconfused:
For it to be a Straw Person, I'd have had to misrepresent your posture and argue against that misrepresentation instead. But I didn't even represent it. I didn't refer to your position at all.

Grey_Wolf_c: Yeah this thing happens IRL
You: Sometimes it's not about sexism
Me: But sometimes it is, and this once it is.
You: STRAW PERSON
???

I mean, I did get a very specific vibe from your post and your mention of third-wave feminism, but I purposely avoided going there in my reply.

[JoeyTheNeko]

I must confess, the title had me worried about the ship being destroyed.

it was a good bait and switch. I fell for it. glad to see that hopefully help is on the way for roy, elan and the crew.

[Snails]

Probably none. Sometimes the Giant likes to jump out from the OOts-verse and steer into teaching class for a few seconds. I wouldn't look too deep into it honestly in terms of storytelling.

Speaking for myself, I thought it was clever as an unexpected throw away line that may or may not tell us something important about frost giant society. After all, Bikini Barbara Barbarian could just be talking up her courage and trying to intimidate Roy by way of exaggeration.

The fact that her claim might be a true and rational description about a made up society we are unlikely to need to learn more about sure seems to make some people uncomfortable, though.

Which proves this tiny little dig was right on the mark. Hats off to the Giant!

[Legato Endless]

Curse these fighters and their tendency to hold back their full potential until narratively appropriate.

[nocoolnamejim]

I'm going to laugh if the Giant chooses to use an actual blue giant to join the Order of the Stick in a big plot twist to solve the Smurfette thing.

No, the purpose of the whole arc wasn't to get Bandana into the Order...it was to get the Frost Giant fighter.

Roy uses his intelligence score in combat: "Hey, you ARE pretty strong. We could really use you and you'd never have to pretend to not be as strong as you are...etc.etc."

No, not really serious.

[SilverCacaobean]

Alright, this change of focus from Roy to Haley and V caught me off guard. I have no idea what is going to happen with the sword now. Or on the ship for that matter.

I was half expecting the sword to return in this strip. Or at least to get informed about what Roy is going to do about it... The way things are going and judging by Rich's tendency to do nothing that big without a reason or only for shock value, the loss of the sword will have a great impact on the story.

Although I'll be honest, I don't know what to expect at all after Andi's wrenching.

On an unrelated note, I hope that if the giantess tries to make good on her promise of killing everyone on the ship, she'll start with the one who currently looks like the captain of the ship...


...Isn't it funny how a two panel joke about sexism prompted a rather disproportionate response here?
What, five pages, as of now? Huh. What does that mean, I wonder?

[Ganbatte]

This nicely illustrates how all men profit from patriarchy - even Roy profited from her holding back and he doesn't even belong to the same species! (Her colleague is dead, but he profited insofar as he did not look bad, I suppose that is more important to frost giants than not dying.)

Hah, good one :smallbiggrin:
Let's not forget all the male boars and animals in general who profit from the tribe losing skilled hunters, the male bacteria and male humus in the soil who'll profit from the giant's burial mounds and all the vicious male air spirits getting valuable zeppelin fuel gas - all because of a single giantess unfair oppression.

[danielxcutter]

Indeed.

There have been airliner crashes where the 1st mate thought the captain was probably making an error, but kept his mouth tight shut because embarrassing his higher status boss would be too painful. Or it seemed so in the moment.

These are incidents where people died and potentially every life on board the airplane could have been lost. We know the details because enough of the crew survived to validate that the instruments said what they were supposed to say, and at least one member of the flight crew noticed as much as the danger approached.

This has happened multiple times. It happened at SFO not very many years ago with a Korean airliner.

Uh... you mean the 세월호 incident? That was a boat, and part of the reason it sunk was because of rampant corruption in the government, which is why we kicked out our former president a few days ago.

But yeah, the crew screwed up a lot.

[AuthorGirl]

Curse these fighters and their tendency to hold back their full potential until narratively appropriate.

Ha, yes. That actually seems to happen quite a lot, though not necessarily with just fighters . . . although, I might question the narrative appropriateness due to the fact that everything already went horribly wrong with the whole losing-the-sword thing. This feels a bit like belaboring the point, but it is a nice segue to Haley.

[AuthorGirl]

Hah, good one :smallbiggrin:
Let's not forget all the male boars and animals in general who profit from the tribe losing skilled hunters, the male bacteria and male humus in the soil who'll profit from the giant's burial mounds and all the vicious male air spirits getting valuable zeppelin fuel gas - all because of a single giantess unfair oppression.

I am laughing at that pun even as I wish I had never read it, which proves it was a good one by the warped standards of punnery. Male boars :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

These two comments remind me so much of the "complaints" about "bad writing" in the comic where Bandana off-handedly mentioned having had a girlfriend that I think I'll bow out of this conversation right now.

GW

Indeed, this is pretty wise.


This is indeed very much like the reaction when Bandana casually mentioned a female ex.

What I'm wondering is how long it will take the people with these objections to realize that the never-reminds-them-LGBT-people-exist-and-sexism-is-real-and-bad comic they were reading is never coming back.

Maybe they'll get the message after another 1000 strips? :smalltongue:


For it to be a Straw Person, I'd have had to misrepresent your posture and argue against that misrepresentation instead. But I didn't even represent it. I didn't refer to your position at all.

Grey_Wolf_c: Yeah this thing happens IRL
You: Sometimes it's not about sexism
Me: But sometimes it is, and this once it is.
You: STRAW PERSON
???

I mean, I did get a very specific vibe from your post and your mention of third-wave feminism, but I purposely avoided going there in my reply.

And +100 this too. Wow.

[SaintRidley]

I don't have any particular issues with our giantess's rant, though I do have to wonder what the point of it was narratively speaking.


It provides a ready-made opportunity for a joke and a transition to Haley.

[Zernin]

For it to be a Straw Person, I'd have had to misrepresent your posture and argue against that misrepresentation instead. But I didn't even represent it. I didn't refer to your position at all.

Grey_Wolf_c: Yeah this thing happens IRL
You: Sometimes it's not about sexism
Me: But sometimes it is, and this once it is.
You: STRAW PERSON
???

I mean, I did get a very specific vibe from your post and your mention of third-wave feminism, but I purposely avoided going there in my reply.

Ooo, going from straw person to cherry picking. You're on a roll.

The whole conversation:

Ganbatte: She held back?! Holding back is dumb.
Spellbreaker26: I get the joke, but it's a bad corollary to real life.
Grey_Wolf_c: This thing happens IRL.
Me: it's not sexism just because it happens, so it doesn't make the use in this context more believable
You: This one is sexist because giant said so, whats your problem?
Me: That isn't relevant to the conversation about the believability of the context. Stop beating that dead horse.
You: OUT OF CONTEXT RE-ENGINEERED QUOTES!

See? I can do that, too.

[Gift Jeraff]

Somewhat clunky dialogue in this strip. I'm not feeling it.

[Grand Arbiter]

Holy crap, you're my hero!

http://i.imgur.com/qgHjKX6.gif
Happy to help. :smallredface:

[Liquor Box]

Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?

An interpretation of the scene that addresses all of Zernin and Gunbatte'a concerns might be that the female frost giant perceived sexism when none actually existed. Not all occssions where a person claims sexism result from actual sexism and we have seen no evidence of sexism amongst frost giant society (other than this one giant's perception) in the strip so far. Indeed (as some have pointed out) males and females seem integrated (for example the most prestigious group - the casters - includes two males and two females).

[littlebum2002]

The whole conversation:


Let's see if you're telling the truth here.


How many more Straw People are we going to have set up in this thrad about how Word of Giant makes it so that this character faces sexism in an attempt to invalidate discussion? Nobody has ever argued that to not be the case. People are stating that it feels forced. So I guess I should thank you for proving the point by invoking that fact that the truth of the situation is indeed locked in by the author? :smallconfused:

OK, you're saying that your argument is that it felt forced, and that he made a straw-man argument. Let's look at the tape for review:



There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.

Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?

And the ruling on the filed is that you're completely full of it. His argument was not a straw man, because your made a claim (not everything is motivated by sexism) and he directly responded to that claim.

I mean, perhaps you have a different definition of the term "straw man argument", but "someone directly addressing a claim you made and then attempting to refute it" usually isn't the accepted definition of that term.

[Snails]

Uh... you mean the 세월호 incident? That was a boat, and part of the reason it sunk was because of rampant corruption in the government, which is why we kicked out our former president a few days ago.

But yeah, the crew screwed up a lot.

I am thinking of Asiana Air Flight 214 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214) where the captain approached under speed and the rest of the crew sat silent while it unfolded.

[Zernin]

An interpretation of the scene that addresses all of Zernin and Gunbatte'a concerns might be that the female frost giant perceived sexism when none actually existed. Not all examples of sexism result from actual sexism and we have seen no evidence of sexism amongst frost giant society (other than this one giant's perception) in the strip so far - indeed (as some have pointed out) males and females seem integrated (for example the most prestigious group - the casters - includes two males and two females).

I actually don't believe this to be the case in my head-cannon. I fully believe that the Frost Giant was subject to some really annoying bull**** in her life because she was a woman. I do find that it breaks my suspension of disbelief that any unit that regularly puts their life on the line would want someone to hold back, though I also believe that it's completely plausible that individual frost giants would try and take credit for the feats of others.

TL;DR: Frost Giant Lady faces sexism and others take credit for her work is plausible, others encouraging her to actually perform poorly in life or death situations is not.

[Zernin]

Let's see if you're telling the truth here.

The mental gymnastics required to formulate your reply to my post after quoting the first line of my post talking about the need for full context and then proceeding to focus on two posts is astounding. Gold star.

[goodpeople25]

I actually don't believe this to be the case in my head-cannon. I fully believe that the Frost Giant was subject to some really annoying bull**** in her life because she was a woman. I do find that it breaks my suspension of disbelief that any unit that regularly puts their life on the line would want someone to hold back, though I also believe that it's completely plausible that individual frost giants would try and take credit for the feats of others.

TL;DR: Frost Giant Lady faces sexism and others take credit for her work is plausible, others encouraging her to actually perform poorly in life or death situations is not.
Okay, does it break suppension of disbelief that the bolded isn't necessarily true?

[Liquor Box]

I actually don't believe this to be the case in my head-cannon. I fully believe that the Frost Giant was subject to some really annoying bull**** in her life because she was a woman. I do find that it breaks my suspension of disbelief that any unit that regularly puts their life on the line would want someone to hold back, though I also believe that it's completely plausible that individual frost giants would try and take credit for the feats of others.

TL;DR: Frost Giant Lady faces sexism and others take credit for her work is plausible, others encouraging her to actually perform poorly in life or death situations is not.

Another plausible explanation is that the female frost giant was subject to sexism, but was not holding anything back because of it (for the reasons you give). She made the comment as a way of both showing bravado and expressing contempt for the sexism she perceives, even though the comment was not accurate.


Your concern is that she is unlikely to hold back in a life or death situation, merely to conform to expectations or avoid rebuke - a reasonable concern in my opinion. If the giant was not holding back (as we think), to maintain the internal consistency of the story we need to find an explanation for her (untrue) comment that she had been - I think either of the explanations given fit well enough.

[Liquor Box]

Okay, does it break suppension of disbelief that the bolded isn't necessarily true?

It doesn't matter whether they regularly do it or not. What matters is that she implied that she had been holding back in this particular battle and that the lives of her and her fbrothers in arms were at risk in this battle.

While it may be plausible that women may hold back in an ordinary workplace situation if that is the norm of the society (and there are probably isolated examples of this occurring int he real world), it does not seem plausible that she would risk her life, and those of her brothers by holding back.

[Zernin]

Okay, does it break suppension of disbelief that the bolded isn't necessarily true?

The only way its not true is if they are in a well trained fighting unit with a hierarchy based on bragging about fighting prowess that never actually gets in any fights that actually test that fighting prowess until now. Is it possible from training to know the abilities of your squad? Certainly, but then everyone would know the male giant was full of it.

[Dr.Zero]

The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it.

I suppose the point is that if you climb high enough, you can oversee the whole zone, Mechane included, wherever it is, as long as the dimension of the Mechane related to the environment visual noise don't make it imperceptible for your visual perception abilities.

About the "lean in" joke, the interesting thing is that me, being not english-speaking, got it immediately, supposing, from the context, that it was a female/feminist version of "Gimme five/Preach it, sister!"
Ignorance for the win! :smallbiggrin:

[gooddragon1]

I'm all for fair treatment of women, but I feel like this approach will restrict dialogue rather than promote it. People might see it as an attack and one that is happening somewhere where it shouldn't be happening. That's what I see from other places on the internet. Your comic is well made Mr. Burlew, but I'm just not sure that this method is the best way to convey that message. To be fair, I don't know if there is a way to convey that message with how things are going these days, everyone is in their own camps, and no one is listening to anyone else. Perks of being a gamer that I get to escape into fantasy.

Shameless promotion of my clergy vigilant class:

Level 16, picks up a piece of planking, has a 26 Strength.
+8, two handed for +12
Power attacks for 2, x2 for two handed, 4
16*3=+48 damage as a standard action decisive strike. +16 -4 (nonproficiency) -2 (power attack) + 8 = +18 to hit.

The fighter suffers more than many other classes from item dependency because they focus on one weapon.

Some day I'll get to play it. Someday.

[Liquor Box]

About the "lean in" joke, the interesting thing is that me, being not english-speaking, got it immediately, supposing, from the context, that it was a female/feminist version of "Gimme five/Preach it, sister!"
Ignorance for the win! :smallbiggrin:

Like you, I thought it was pretty easy to guess what lean in meant, and get the joke. I'm a native english speaker, but I hadn't heard of the book.

[Grim Portent]

The only way its not true is if they are in a well trained fighting unit with a hierarchy based on bragging about fighting prowess that never actually gets in any fights that actually test that fighting prowess until now. Is it possible from training to know the abilities of your squad? Certainly, but then everyone would know the male giant was full of it.

It's possible that their normal enemies are so weak that they pose no threat. Giants would barely notice normal humans or orcs in a fight and could cleave through dozens or hundreds easily before feeling any real risk. If they mostly raid weaker races then they almost never fight an actual threat. People and monsters able to take on a 14 HD giant are very rare, rarer if any of the giants have class levels, which it appears most of the ones here do.

[Zernin]

It's possible that their normal enemies are so weak that they pose no threat. Giants would barely notice normal humans or orcs in a fight and could cleave through dozens or hundreds easily before feeling any real risk. If they mostly raid weaker races then they almost never fight an actual threat. People and monsters able to take on a 14 HD giant are very rare, rarer if any of the giants have class levels, which it appears most of the ones here do.

Then there are no great feats for any of them to be bragging about:

Giant 1:smallamused:: Yeah, I totally cleaved through 5 of those orcs in one blow.
Giant 2:smallconfused:: So you didn't roll a 1? Congrats, I guess?

[Ruslan]

I actually don't believe this to be the case in my head-cannon. I fully believe that the Frost Giant was subject to some really annoying bull**** in her life because she was a woman. I do find that it breaks my suspension of disbelief that any unit that regularly puts their life on the line would want someone to hold back, though I also believe that it's completely plausible that individual frost giants would try and take credit for the feats of others.

TL;DR: Frost Giant Lady faces sexism and others take credit for her work is plausible, others encouraging her to actually perform poorly in life or death situations is not.
This was well-covered in post #81 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21811759&postcount=81). Those who think it's not plausible simply haven't experienced tight hierarchical societies plus have a failure of imagination.


It's possible that their normal enemies are so weak that they pose no threat. Giants would barely notice normal humans or orcs in a fight and could cleave through dozens or hundreds easily before feeling any real risk. If they mostly raid weaker races then they almost never fight an actual threat. People and monsters able to take on a 14 HD giant are very rare, rarer if any of the giants have class levels, which it appears most of the ones here do.Which begs the question, how do they even acquire class levels if there are no enemies to get XP off of?

[Grim Portent]

Then there are no great feats for any of them to be bragging about:

Giant 1:smallamused:: Yeah, I totally cleaved through 5 of those orcs in one blow.
Giant 2:smallconfused:: So you didn't roll a 1? Congrats, I guess?

Great feats are relative. To a race of 20 foot tall vikings it's almost impossible to find something that can actually hurt you, unless you stand if front of a siege weapon and give it plenty of time to aim before actually attacking it or happen to live near another giant clan that happens to be at war with you. The only things available to brag about will be fighting the odd wild animal big enough to hurt them, impressive feats of strength like pushing down a fortified town gate by hand, or slaughtering many more people than the rest of your clan even if they are no real threat.

[yldenfrei]

Would the angry people have shut up if the female frost giant instead said something along the lines of "I am not left-handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded)!" :smallconfused:

The point is to reveal that the enemy was holding back and that Roy is now in for some serious hurt. That the Giant decided to fit in some female-empowering banter that nicely flows into a segue to Haley & co. is a bonus.

That people decide to get seriously offended at this one-shot gag (and find fault with the female frost giant in the process!) is icing on the cake. :smallbiggrin:

[Zernin]

Great feats are relative. To a race of 20 foot tall vikings it's almost impossible to find something that can actually hurt you, unless you stand if front of a siege weapon and give it plenty of time to aim before actually attacking it or happen to live near another giant clan that happens to be at war with you. The only things available to brag about will be fighting the odd wild animal big enough to hurt them, impressive feats of strength like pushing down a fortified town gate by hand, or slaughtering many more people than the rest of your clan even if they are no real threat.

At which point we have a whole group of rampaging giants stomping out towns across the countryside, yet still feel the need to keep themselves in some kind of organized fighting unit that regularly fights in groups. There wouldn't be much of a non-giant countryside left. I don't think this discussion is bringing us closer to plausibility. :smallconfused:

[Liquor Box]

Would the angry people have shut up if the female frost giant instead said something along the lines of "I am not left-handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded)!" :smallconfused:

The point is to reveal that the enemy was holding back and that Roy is now in for some serious hurt. That the Giant decided to fit in some female-empowering banter that nicely flows into a segue to Haley & co. is a bonus.

That people decide to get seriously offended at this one-shot gag (and find fault with the female frost giant in the process!) is icing on the cake. :smallbiggrin:

Has anyone said they are angry or offended? It seems to me that the people who come across as angriest are those who are objecting to the discussion of why the female giant said what she did and how it fits in with the world.

There are pages of debate about every strip that's released - some even spill into seperate threads (see the 21 page "Is Andi wrong?" for example). Why is it so offensive that some people have opinions on the realism and meaning of the comments in this particular panel?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Grim Portent]

At which point we have a whole group of rampaging giants stomping out towns across the countryside, yet still feel the need to keep themselves in some kind of organized fighting unit that regularly fights in groups. There wouldn't be much of a non-giant countryside left. I don't think this discussion is bringing us closer to plausibility. :smallconfused:

They live in a remote mountain range in the middle of nowhere. Chances are the only things to raid are goblinoids and orcs, maybe the odd young dragon, and the dwarves who mostly live underground. They can't even march too far from the mountains because they suffer severely in warm temperatures, which is a problem as they head south or into lowlands. They can lay waste to anything in half a days march of the mountains, plus a bit during winter. That's not much.

I also wouldn't call what we've seen much of an organised fighting unit, it's more likely just a clan of giants that's shown up on Thrym's command because they happened to live near enough. It's a dozen or so giants, mostly younger ones, working together in loose cohesion. So far their organisation has consisted of a simple ambush, thrown rocks, three boarders and some spellcasters, all working in very loose cooperation.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah... I mean, I'm totally for treating people equally regardless of gender(or race, sexuality, etc.), but this strip didn't do a totally good job of saying that. I only got it after the playgrounders provided context, and even then it's not funny, it just makes sense. It seems a little random and out of place.

Note: this is 100% personal opinion, and my problem is how it was presented, not what.

[Kish]

I'm all for fair treatment of women, but I feel like this approach will restrict dialogue rather than promote it.
What's "this approach"? Making jokes based on the fact that sexism exists and ignoring the wishes of people who would rather pretend it doesn't?

What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

[dsollen]

It seems like this update came faster then they usually do, not that i'm complaining about that.

I liked Belkar's last response, and of course the continued subtle character development. In fact It made me think back to one of the earliest strips with unholy blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). I feel like something like that may be show up to bookend (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BookEnds) the comic too. Some spell or ability that targets evil will be cast on him and fail, demonstrating to everyone that he has developed enough to have actually made it to chaotic neutral, around the end of the series. Probably won't happen for some time, but I think there is a decent chance it could happen eventually. Though I will hate to see it happen if it does, because Belkar likely will finally meet prophesied end shortly after that revelation, and no one wants that! Or if the giant is really cruel he will die to an ability that wouldn't target evil, but I don't think the Giant would give the sexy shoeless god of war such an ironic ending, the Belkstar is going to have to die in a far more glorious manner.

As to the debate about sexism and the Frost Giant I think I'll jump on the bandwagon and over analyze the joke some, since it did stick out in my head when I read it, though not too much since it did serve the joke and a great segway to the other team.

I have to admit that struck me as odd, though not for the reason some have argued. I'm a feminist and generally fight against gender roles (female AND male) whenever I can, I don't deny at all that women have felt forced to under-perform to not show up a male counterparts in the past, and present. I wouldn't put that past the frost giants either, though I admit I would think that in combat the survival instincts and "I don't want to get killed" bit would be a strong enough push that it would usually overpower the culturally ingrained fear of showing up a man, combat has been showed to cause men and women to give up many other strong cultural inhibitions in the sake of self preservation. Still, my issue isn't that a frost giant would feel that way, I just find it odd that *this* frost giant feels that way.

The degree with which she celebrated 'not having' to limit herself, even the fact that she was consciously aware of how much she had been limiting herself, felt a little off. The switch from "I can't out perform this man, even if it may risk my own harm/death" to "I will brag about how awesome I am and how I'll tell everyone I did all the work when I go back home" just because of her partner's death just felt too drastic. Cultural limits, including gender roles, don't just disappear that fast. I've advised women who were in situations similar to the "can't out perform a man" situation, or other gender/culture enforced roles they felt constrained by, and I just don't see one of them throw off those inhibitions so flippantly on such a minor change of circumstances. Basically I can see two viable extremes of approaching such gender role restrictions, complying to them to the degree that you may risk your life, or rebelling against them and striving to disprove them, all in the same character. I could except either extreme, but both in one character within a panel of each other felt odd.

The whole "I won't give the man any credit" part is the part I think threw me off. If she had said something like "and I bet that the man will get all the credit anyways" or something along those lines It would have felt fine to me. But saying your holding back to avoid upsetting one man, but then that your going to go out of your way to brag to everyone about your performance right after, especially when in this case it would actually be taking credit away from the dead (he did some damage and tanked a good bit for her, that's not trivial) just felt off.

Still, I'm not complaining really, just over analyzing. As I said I like the segway, and I don't mind the giant bringing up a joke about real gender politic issues, it's *good* to make people away of gender stereotypes and the harm they do so that we can be more proactive in trying to avoid perpetuating them. I just think the joke would have flowed better when I was reading it if the last line about not giving the man any credit was tweaked slightly, it sort of jerked me out of the moment for a second with the oddity of the change.

[8BitNinja]

More about Haley, Belkar, and V? It's as if Rich Burlew can read my innermost thoughts.

Can he?

If so, does anyone know how to make a good tinfoil hat?

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

It provides a ready-made opportunity for a joke and a transition to Haley.

We have a winner! It even serves its purpose as trash talk: "hey, human fighter, way to take out the only reason I've been holding myself back and provide an opportunity for advancement!"

[Aegis J Hyena]

Wow, I never even saw the update happen -zooms over to comment-

They can't run far enough away from *you*, Belkar.

[Ganbatte]

What's "this approach"? Making jokes based on the fact that sexism exists and ignoring the wishes of people who would rather pretend it doesn't?

What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

I don't get it, why do you insist with this idea that whoever voices any complaints of any sort automatically "doesn't want this to ever be acknowledged or mentioned in any form"?
I don't know, it feel to me like you're quite literally jumping the shark and attempting to shove your own isolated view into everyone else's mouth, regardles of any point of argument presented which you've been leisurely ignoring.

Have you considered the possibility that the message and the way it's delivered may be two different elements, with the second possibly being executed wrongly regardless of how rightful the first is? Just a thought. Think about it.

[Shining Wrath]

Men taking credit for women's work? Who ever heard of that (http://www.biography.com/news/famous-female-scientists)?

And anyone suggesting those women should have been somehow even more badass and prevented the men from claiming credit for their work, when they already oozed badassary from every pore, is embarrassing themselves.

I've known emotionally strong, highly intelligent, extremely capable women who felt they had to hold back because of gender roles in society. The frost giantess' problem does really happen. And as snails cited above, people have died rather than break out of their place in the pecking order. In fact, it's a recognized source of error (http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/faculty-and-research/vanderbilt-business-inbrief/preventing-medical-errors.cfm) in the field of medicine, and people die as a result of that deference to authority.

I am now done with this discussion. People risk death routinely rather than break out of their place in society.

[Jasdoif]

The whole "I won't give the man any credit" part is the part I think threw me off.You may be confusing "I will not say he did all the work", which was in the comic; with "I will say he did not do any of the work", which was not.

[Shining Wrath]

More about Haley, Belkar, and V? It's as if Rich Burlew can read my innermost thoughts.

Can he?

If so, does anyone know how to make a good tinfoil hat?

Your helmet should serve adequately as a Faraday Cage.

Don't ask me how I know.

[KorvinStarmast]

Curse these fighters and their tendency to hold back their full potential until narratively appropriate. But their dates appreciate their holding back until just the right moment ...

No, the purpose of the whole arc wasn't to get Bandana into the Order...it was to get the Frost Giant fighter. Roy's not cute enough. Only Elan can do that.

Would the angry people have shut up if the female frost giant instead said something along the lines of "I am not left-handed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded)!" :smallconfused: If she had said "prepare to die" they'd have felt better, in their geek comfort zone.

They live in a remote mountain range in the middle of nowhere. Chances are the only things to raid are goblinoids and orcs, maybe the odd young dragon, and the dwarves who mostly live underground. The could always snuggle with a young or hatchling White Dragon ...

[Liquor Box]

Men taking credit for women's work? Who ever heard of that (http://www.biography.com/news/famous-female-scientists)?

And anyone suggesting those women should have been somehow even more badass and prevented the men from claiming credit for their work, when they already oozed badassary from every pore, is embarrassing themselves.

I've known emotionally strong, highly intelligent, extremely capable women who felt they had to hold back because of gender roles in society. The frost giantess' problem does really happen. And as snails cited above, people have died rather than break out of their place in the pecking order. In fact, it's a recognized source of error (http://www.owen.vanderbilt.edu/faculty-and-research/vanderbilt-business-inbrief/preventing-medical-errors.cfm) in the field of medicine, and people die as a result of that deference to authority.

I am now done with this discussion. People risk death routinely rather than break out of their place in society.

You give examples of two entirely different things (women not being sufficiently credited for scientific work they did, and people more senior in a hierachy making fatal errors, when people lower in the hierachy may have done better) and then appear to conclude that this means that women will hold back in fighting for the life of themselves and their brothers in arms so not to upstage males, as was suggested by the giant in the comic?

Defference to authority is an entirely different thing. In medicine decisions have to be made, people may have a different opinion, and the seniority of the doctors involved is how it is determined which opinion will prevail. Sometimes the more senior person may turn out to be wrong, but you might expect (if people were promoted on merit) that the senior doctor would be right more often. This example (and Snails' plane example) are more analogous to the Andi/Bandana conflict than to the situation with the giant.

As Ganbatte pointed out, someone suggesting that this particular scenario jars with reality does not mean that a person is endorsing or denying sexism. We don't have to try to shut down any discussion of it as if its heretical.

[KorvinStarmast]

As Ganbatte pointed out, someone suggesting that this particular scenario jars with reality does not mean that a person is endorsing or denying sexism. We don't have to try to shut down any discussion of it as if its heretical. Check your calendar. Year 2017. That is exactly what many people try to do. That is also why I stayed out of this inane branch of the discussion for a strip that Broke Us Out of the Mechane Drama Tedium.

We now know that Belkar and Haley and V have: Mission Accomplished.
Their job: rendezvous with Mechane
Roy's Job: survive
Elan's Job: repair balloon, and perhaps charm the giant lady.
Andi's Job: remove head from Sphincter
Mateo's Job: steer Mechane
Felix's Job: Not sure, I'd like to see some initiative from our only Saber wielding pirate. Lay a little Errol Flynn on it all, Felix! You already look great.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ugh.
Every time.
Every single time.
Every goddamn time.

Awkward dialogue complaints come up every time. In the same comic with "Go Hel! Know? Thor wont!". But it always just so happens to be 'awkward' and 'clumsy' when its a social justice point. Every single time.
The real awkward dialogue is reading people bending over backwards to justify not liking the line because of how 'wacky' and 'out of place' it is. They aren't sexist, really!

[CrispyCriminal]

While I have no issue with the subject matter for the most part, I do hold issue with the fact that she's spewing this stuff to a guy who already acknowledged she was made of thicker stuff than her now dead colleague. An understanding was already established of the circumstances between the two and Roy didn't say anything to provoke the tirade, aside from saving something special in case it's needed, and even then it was robbed of him before it began (one of the few things I don't like about Rich's writing style, but that's another subject). I'm pretty sure it's only there so Rich had something for her to speak of that wasn't rubbing the loss of his weapon or some other smug remark in a way that one of the bigger bads would of done...and maybe to lower talk of roy's lost blade.

[Lvl45DM!]

You give examples of two entirely different things (women not being sufficiently credited for scientific work they did, and people more senior in a hierachy making fatal errors, when people lower in the hierachy may have done better) and then appear to conclude that this means that women will hold back in fighting for the life of themselves and their brothers in arms so not to upstage males, as was suggested by the giant in the comic?

Defference to authority is an entirely different thing. In medicine decisions have to be made, people may have a different opinion, and the seniority of the doctors involved is how it is determined which opinion will prevail. Sometimes the more senior person may turn out to be wrong, but you might expect (if people were promoted on merit) that the senior doctor would be right more often. This example (and Snails' plane example) are more analogous to the Andi/Bandana conflict than to the situation with the giant.

As Ganbatte pointed out, someone suggesting that this particular scenario jars with reality does not mean that a person is endorsing or denying sexism. We don't have to try to shut down any discussion of it as if its heretical.

Jars with reality.
This particular scenario jars with reality.

The Frost Giant Barbarian battling the Fighter who just lost his magical sword on a flying pirate ship to save the world from a vampire dwarf, describing something that happens in real life as a joke, jars with reality.

Maybe, just maybe, you're reading the wrong kind of comic?



EDIT: oh and of course the assumption that everything is purely merit based has never, ever, ever, in history EVER been true in any institution. Theres always some stupid bias, from sexism, classism, racism, or just regular seniority. Preferencing string theorists over loop quantum gravity theorists, or going with the pretty guy as your secretary. Promoting the girl who agrees with you over the one who disagrees. Bias is rampant. So the idea that its shockingly unbelievable that the Evil society under a single male deity with low intelligence isn't PURELY merit based jars with reality.

[Gift Jeraff]

Ugh.
Every time.
Every single time.
Every goddamn time.

Awkward dialogue complaints come up every time. In the same comic with "Go Hel! Know? Thor wont!". But it always just so happens to be 'awkward' and 'clumsy' when its a social justice point. Every single time.
The real awkward dialogue is reading people bending over backwards to justify not liking the line because of how 'wacky' and 'out of place' it is. They aren't sexist, really!

The Go Hel strip was awkward and clunky, too. But please, continue to imply I'm sexisy.

[Lvl45DM!]

The Go Hel strip was awkward and clunky, too. But please, continue to imply I'm sexisy.

Only as long as you continue to fight for sexism, rather than against it.

[Liquor Box]

Check your calendar. Year 2017. That is exactly what many people try to do. That is also why I stayed out of this inane branch of the discussion for a strip that Broke Us Out of the Mechane Drama Tedium.



What is it that you are saying many people are trying to do? Shut down any discussion regarding a comment that carried an anti-sexist message? I agree many people are - and its a bad thing including for those of us that oppose sexism.


Lvl45DM! Awkward dialogue complaints come up every time. In the same comic with "Go Hel! Know? Thor wont!". But it always just so happens to be 'awkward' and 'clumsy' when its a social justice point. Every single time.
The real awkward dialogue is reading people bending over backwards to justify not liking the line because of how 'wacky' and 'out of place' it is. They aren't sexist, really!

People complain about the dialogue, or the storyline every single strip. They don't only complain when there is a social justice point. For a recent example, see the 21 pages dedicated to whether Andi was wrong in her criticisms of Bandana. In that thread people "bend over backwards" equally to justify their views. Its only that when it's a social justice issue people get worked up over any suggestion that the passage doesn't make much sense. I'm sure people like Gambatte and Zermin have been critical of several scenes throughout the course of OotS, but you have only noticed it on this ocassion, and then assumed that it MUST BE because they are sexist.

[JumboWheat01]

More about Haley, Belkar, and V? It's as if Rich Burlew can read my innermost thoughts.

Can he?

If so, does anyone know how to make a good tinfoil hat?

It would be kinda awesome if you could defeat psionics with tinfoil.

[Ganbatte]

Jars with reality.
This particular scenario jars with reality.

The Frost Giant Barbarian battling the Fighter who just lost his magical sword on a flying pirate ship to save the world from a vampire dwarf, describing something that happens in real life as a joke, jars with reality.

Maybe, just maybe, you're reading the wrong kind of comic?

Ah yes, this is a common misconception that many people share :vaarsuvius: the belief that just because a work is grounded in a fantasy setting with fictional races and powers that must mean that basic reason and logic have no reason to exist and that "everything goes no matter how absurd or jarring".

Needless to say, that's not how it works. Fictional elements like magic swords or giants don't invalidate basic natural behaviour and rationale like the one the giantess is displaying here, even moreso since it's clearly grounded in our reality, which is why it feels jarring: a real person wouldn't behave like that.
Suspension of disbelief exists to make us accept dragons and magic brooms, not to justify any bizarre or nonsensical thing a character could come up with. That's up to a person's own writing standards and it appears many people raised a question mark in this particular case.


I'm sure people like Gambatte and Zermin have been critical of several scenes throughout the course of OotS, but you have only noticed it on this ocassion, and then assumed that it MUST BE because they are sexist.

Calling sexism is a good deflection to answer something while not really saying anything. A convenient scapegoat very often used.

[Liquor Box]

Jars with reality.
This particular scenario jars with reality.

The Frost Giant Barbarian battling the Fighter who just lost his magical sword on a flying pirate ship to save the world from a vampire dwarf, describing something that happens in real life as a joke, jars with reality.

Maybe, just maybe, you're reading the wrong kind of comic?
That doesn't jar with the realities established by the comic at all. Within the world that has been established for the OotS, all that works perfectly well.

But the OotS has also established a world where people, more or less, act in a certain way. Sometimes though, characters say or do things that depart from what we might expect them to do in the context (of the comic and the situation), and this is one of those times. On those occasions fans on this board discuss those character actions at length, with some fans defending them, and others remaining critical. Usually the departure from the sort of behaviour we might expect does not involve a social justice issue, and then the discussion proceeds without the sort of righteous indignation we see on this occasion.

Edit - Ninja'd by seconds

[Knaight]

What's "this approach"? Making jokes based on the fact that sexism exists and ignoring the wishes of people who would rather pretend it doesn't?

What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

I'm guessing it's whatever approach isn't in use, until said approach is used and it magically doesn't work anymore.

[Lvl45DM!]

What is it that you are saying many people are trying to do? Shut down any discussion regarding a comment that carried an anti-sexist message? I agree many people are - and its a bad thing including for those of us that oppose sexism.



People complain about the dialogue, or the storyline every single strip. They don't only complain when there is a social justice point. For a recent example, see the 21 pages dedicated to whether Andi was wrong in her criticisms of Bandana. In that thread people "bend over backwards" equally to justify their views. Its only that when it's a social justice issue people get worked up over any suggestion that the passage doesn't make much sense. I'm sure people like Gambatte and Zermin have been critical of several scenes throughout the course of OotS, but you have only noticed it on this ocassion, and then assumed that it MUST BE because they are sexist.


Noone was complaining that Andi's or Bandannas dialogue was awkward, they were twisting internal facts around. Completely different issue. Theres a difference between complaining about something within the strip, and complaining about the strips inclusion of social justice points. Assuming that this complaint is equivalent to any other is part of the issue. Its not. Because this issue is real. What you think about sky pirates doesnt matter to the real world. What you think about sexism in the workplace, or homosexuality, does.
The specific phrase 'awkward' dialogue does in fact come up specifically and excessively in this context. Its weasel words designed to hide the fact that people dont like being made to think about this kinda stuff. Its always clumsy, or out of place. Even in this case when the entirety of the comedy of this dialogue is the silliness of the parallel. Somehow its the wrong kind of silly or out of place. Its the wrong kind of awkward because it was designed to teach or lecture or be a SJW. blah blah blah.

[Lvl45DM!]

Ah yes, this is a common misconception that many people share :vaarsuvius: the belief that just because a work is grounded in a fantasy setting with fictional races and powers that must mean that basic reason and logic have no reason to exist and that "everything goes no matter how absurd or jarring".

Needless to say, that's not how it works. Fictional elements like magic swords or giants don't invalidate basic natural behaviour and rationale like the one the giantess is displaying here, even moreso since it's clearly grounded in our reality, which is why it feels jarring: a real person wouldn't behave like that.
Suspension of disbelief exists to make us accept dragons and magic brooms, not to justify any bizarre or nonsensical thing a character could come up with.



Calling sexism is a good deflection to answer something while not really answering anything. A convenient scapegoat very often used.

Real people DO in fact behave like that.
This is the same argument we had with Durkons mum saying 'gal or fella'.
Awkward dialogue, doesnt fit established world, noone in the real world says that.
Subjective, wrong wrong.
Amazing how the same arguments come up, but no seriously THIS time its different right?

[Ganbatte]

Real people DO in fact behave like that.
This is the same argument we had with Durkons mum saying 'gal or fella'.
Awkward dialogue, doesnt fit established world, noone in the real world says that.
Subjective, wrong wrong.
Amazing how the same arguments come up, but no seriously THIS time its different right?

If it's subjective how can you claim that your position is right and everyone else's is wrong?

See the contradiction you're displaying?

[Liquor Box]

Noone was complaining that Andi's or Bandannas dialogue was awkward, they were twisting internal facts around. Completely different issue. Theres a difference between complaining about something within the strip, and complaining about the strips inclusion of social justice points. Assuming that this complaint is equivalent to any other is part of the issue. Its not. Because this issue is real. What you think about sky pirates doesnt matter to the real world. What you think about sexism in the workplace, or homosexuality, does.

But nobody is complaining about the strips conclusion of a social justice point (maybe someone did, but thats not what the ongoing discussion is about). The complaint is that the way the point was delivered seemed unrealistic to some people - some people thought it seemed unlikely that a giant would deliberately fight poorly in circumstances where her on life and those of her colleagues were at risk, just to conform with some norm of her society - especially in circumstances where the rest of the objective evdence appears to suggest a reasonably well integrated society.

By complaining about this people aren't making a comment on homosexuality (where did that come from?) or sexism at all. They are just complaining about whether this particular scenario was realistic in the context of this comic.

Whether people prefer to be hit over the head with social justice messages (even if delievered better than this) in a comic is a different issue - porbably with valid points on each side - but it is not the discussion most people here are having.


The specific phrase 'awkward' dialogue does in fact come up specifically and excessively in this context. Its weasel words designed to hide the fact that people dont like being made to think about this kinda stuff. Its always clumsy, or out of place. Even in this case when the entirety of the comedy of this dialogue is the silliness of the parallel. Somehow its the wrong kind of silly or out of place. Its the wrong kind of awkward because it was designed to teach or lecture or be a SJW. blah blah blah.

You say that the argument is excessive in this case - but here it has only gone on for four or so pages. As pointed out, the "Is Andi wrong" thread is 21 pages and had to be closed by a mod - it seems far more excessive to me.

Your comments about this all being weasel words designed to disguise a dark motive is just silly conjecture, and you cannot point to anything to justify that view. People are allowed to express their view on a comic without being accused of sexism. People's complaint about the way this strip played out is indistinguishable from their complaints about numerous other strips (such as the example already given), it's just that you don;t like it in this case, because how dare anyone criticise the delivery of a message that you agree with.

[Liquor Box]

Real people DO in fact behave like that.
This is the same argument we had with Durkons mum saying 'gal or fella'.
Awkward dialogue, doesnt fit established world, noone in the real world says that.
Subjective, wrong wrong.
Amazing how the same arguments come up, but no seriously THIS time its different right?

No - this time is not different. It's the same as every other time we argue about dialogue or character actions or other content. There is no hidden motive, like every other time, it's simply because people see things in the comic that they want to talk about.

[Tyrannosaurus]

Real people DO in fact behave like that.
This is the same argument we had with Durkons mum saying 'gal or fella'.
Awkward dialogue, doesnt fit established world, noone in the real world says that.
Subjective, wrong wrong.
Amazing how the same arguments come up, but no seriously THIS time its different right?

Some real people behave like that. In this society, we've ideally progressed to the point where we see that inequality as undesirable.

Yes. The idea that the dialogue is awkward is subjective. I'm failing to see your leap from that to "OH GOD THERE IS SEXISM!!!!!!!" Maybe I'm willing to give my forum colleagues more of a benefit of doubt than you are.

I can see how the dialogue in that particular setting might be perceived clunky. It seems like a particularly odd place to burst into a rant on that subject. It makes more sense if one assumes that she had frequently been required to (and I seriously paraphrase here) "hold back and let her colleague take credit for her actions". However all that seems more like internal exposition rather than a battle cry. So when someone is attempting to suspend their disbelief and imagine the scene, who is to say what ought to break that suspension?

That all being said, I'm thoroughly surprised at how much of a raging debate this became because I took the comic as just a small little joke informed by the author's viewpoint rather than a beaming statement on social justice that I'm starting to pick up.

Can we all just go back to talking about Elan's magical flavor clouds? I'm pretty sure that's gender neutral and not hateful at all. Unless you consider that all those goddamn clouds are white...

[Wroth]

The only reason I found it a bit clunky was because she had established she was stronger then her brethren in the previous comic and Roy had seen so during combat.

Not to mention she's announcing this while she's beating on a disarmed opponent that came about due to circumstantial issues and it comes off a bit odd to try and tout her own strength now.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Which begs the question, how do they even acquire class levels if there are no enemies to get XP off of?

Roleplay XP. And maybe there's an old school GP=XP thing going on.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The only reason I found it a bit clunky was because she had established she was stronger then her brethren in the previous comic and Roy had seen so during combat.

Not to mention she's announcing this while she's beating on a disarmed opponent that came about due to circumstantial issues and it comes off a bit odd to try and tout her own strength now.

Roy might be quite a bit smarter than the average frost giant. Plus, I'm sure none of them have an MBA from a prestigious fighter college.

[Mandor]

I might have titled it "in Soviet Russia, Ship Abandons You!".

If only they had someone.... could be anyone really... who had obsessively focused on locate person spells to the point of mentally fragmenting and making pacts with demons to save their family after being hit by revenge from a forgotten villian. If only they had someone like that nearby. :smallsmile:

[danielxcutter]

I might have titled it "in Soviet Russia, Ship Abandons You!".

DARN you Swordsage'd me. I was going to say that!


If only they had someone.... could be anyone really... who had obsessively focused on locate person spells to the point of mentally fragmenting and making pacts with demons to save their family after being hit by revenge from a forgotten villian. If only they had someone like that nearby. :smallsmile:

Hmmm... Well, I don't see any other way of V, Haley, and Belkar getting to the Mechane quickly besides that.

[gooddragon1]

Ugh.
Every time.
Every single time.
Every goddamn time.

Awkward dialogue complaints come up every time. In the same comic with "Go Hel! Know? Thor wont!". But it always just so happens to be 'awkward' and 'clumsy' when its a social justice point. Every single time.
The real awkward dialogue is reading people bending over backwards to justify not liking the line because of how 'wacky' and 'out of place' it is. They aren't sexist, really!


What's "this approach"? Making jokes based on the fact that sexism exists and ignoring the wishes of people who would rather pretend it doesn't?

What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

Because of the nature of jokes is to be at the expense of others. It puts people on the defensive. That tends to restrict dialogue. The first quote is unfortunately what I mean by people being in camps (I have been in camps... like 3.5 vs 4e, and I was very petty). If we can't bridge the gap, we won't communicate. When we shut out others without even listening (yes, sexism is wrong, but we need to know where it comes from to show why it's wrong) we can't expect them to listen.

People said I you do not know. Silence like a cancer grows.

[F.Harr]

GAH!

Sword!

He needs that!

[GrayGriffin]

So, since no one has commented on the "lean in" joke, I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be advice for swinging an axe. If you lean in, you have more force behind the blow. (I think)

[Nightcanon]

We have a gender-integrated work force, but this is still a real thing in real world workplaces anyway. The joke works perfectly well because it mirrors the real world perfectly. And that's sad.

I know, right? Have these people never heard that joke about women needing to be twice as clever and work twice as hard to get half the credit a man gets? (Killer punchline: fortunately that isn't difficult...)

[Cazero]

I didn't get Haley's punchline about leaning. It made the obviously feminism-themed cutaway panel joke fell flat and made me feeling like typing a comment that could be considered sexist. What am I missing?


I might have titled it "in Soviet Russia, Ship Abandons You!".
I have never heard of that Soviet Russia you are talking about. Is it a kind of food?
In an ordinary crew, when you are in big trouble you abandon the ship. But with Andi as captain, when you are in big trouble the ship abandons you !

[martianmister]

I didn't get Haley's punchline about leaning. It made the obviously feminism-themed cutaway panel joke fell flat and made me feeling like typing a comment that could be considered sexist. What am I missing?

So, since no one has commented on the "lean in" joke, I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be advice for swinging an axe. If you lean in, you have more force behind the blow. (I think)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-were-watching-lean-in
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_In

[pearl jam]

Regarding Haley's "Lean In" reference.

https://leanin.org/book/

It's totally connected to what the Frost Giant was talking about.

I've seen references to this all over lately but apparently not everyone reads the same articles/watches the same Youtube clips as me.

(Surprise!)

In my personal opinion this situation that the Frost Giant has proposed doesn't seem that implausible at all.

Also, I suspect that it might be helpful to remember that this whole battle has probably taken a lot less real OOTS-world time than we might be remembering when it comes to questions of why the Frost Giant might not have started fully exerting herself sooner. The actual time they've had to realize this opponent might not be a pushover has probably not really been all that long?

[danielxcutter]

Regarding Haley's "Lean In" reference.

https://leanin.org/book/

It's totally connected to what the Frost Giant was talking about.

I've seen references to this all over lately but apparently not everyone reads the same articles/watches the same Youtube clips as me.

(Surprise!)

In my personal opinion this situation that the Frost Giant has proposed doesn't seem that implausible at all.

Also, I suspect that it might be helpful to remember that this whole battle has probably taken a lot less real OOTS-world time than we might be remembering when it comes to questions of why the Frost Giant might not have started fully exerting herself sooner. The actual time they've had to realize this opponent might not be a pushover has probably not really been all that long?

It's been, what, a minute in in-comic time? So I guess.

Also your avatar's not working.

[pearl jam]

It's been, what, a minute in in-comic time? So I guess.

Also your avatar's not working.


I'm not a rules expert but I would guess that's not super far off?



Yeah, Dropbox changes to the Public folder just took effect. I tried changing the link but that didn't work so I guess I'll have to upload it to imgur. :P

[Windscion]

As alluded to by a couple others, how will Roy get his sword back? I am hoping he remembers something from the book Wrecan gave him and manages to recall it to his hands. Honestly, it's kinda what I expect.

Oh, and nothing about the giantess's anger or actions are implausible. People do stupid stuff all the time.

[martianmister]

So, uh, the giants have no problem with integrating women into their fighting lots (where one weak link in the chain might spell doom for all) but at the same time they don't feel like acknowledging their strenght? How does that work?
And while she's the one who chooses to cave in to the pressure, rather than bringing the fight where it belongs - her own frost giant society - she chooses to bitch and complain when nobody's around to hear?

Society itself is probably sexist but they're forced to de-segretade by the much more progressive/practical/professional/meritocratic higher ups. Her male colleague is probably a jerk though, who wants to be the center of attention. Which explains her indifference to his death.

[Marlowe]

I've never heard "lean in" before in my life; but is it really that hard to work out from context? I had no trouble working out the broad strokes of what she meant, and the fact that it works rather well with the mechanics of wielding an axe makes it all the sweeter.

[DigoDragon]

Disappointment: no witty comeback from Haley when Belkar pokes her about Elan being her pet.

Kinda says something without saying a thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, that dialogue was so clunky.

Just like "Guess what? I'm not left handed, either (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded)" was terrible writing, never before seen in modern literature.

Giantess has been holding back. Giantess explains why she's been holding back. In a comic strip, where dialogue is the only means of exposition.

Heads explode.

Head explosions are because the dialogue is just that bad, not because acknowledging sexism hits people in a sore spot.

Uh-huh.

[warmachine]

Finding the ship wouldn't be a problem if they had pocket compasses. If only they existed in their world.

[Kish]

Because of the nature of jokes is to be at the expense of others. It puts people on the defensive.
That answers one of my questions, albeit with an assertion that I wholly disagree with (there is no reason for a man who doesn't take credit for his female colleagues' work to identify with the male frost giants she's complaining about). It doesn't answer the other one.

[Ganbatte]

Yeah, that dialogue was so clunky.

Just like "Guess what? I'm not left handed, either (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IAmNotLeftHanded)" was terrible writing, never before seen in modern literature.

Giantess has been holding back. Giantess explains why she's been holding back. In a comic strip, where dialogue is the only means of exposition.

Heads explode.

Head explosions are because the dialogue is just that bad, not because acknowledging sexism hits people in a sore spot.

Uh-huh.

Indeed, sometimes clunky dialogue is just clunky dialogue. Everyone has their own persona sore spots on everything but most often then not people share a common one with badly-woven teaching.

[Spellbreaker26]

Yeah, that dialogue was so clunky.


You know what? It was pretty clunky. And "I'm not left-handed either" isn't clunky writing because:

1. It just takes a sentence, so the change in the balance of the fight happens really quickly. The giant lady takes about four panels worth of text to get to her point, so the energy is lost.

2. It is said at the actual turning point of the fight. Inigo was winning at that point. Whereas the tables have already turned for Roy since he's already lost his sword.

I don't object to other points in the comic where it critiques sexism, like when Roy apologises to Miko for treating her like an object, because that was

A] Something that was introduced in the story and had relevance, and wasn't just tacked on

and

B] Well-written, since Roy was doing a disservice to both Miko (by condescending to her) and the party (by ignoring her bad attitude). It tied into a bunch of other things and had quite a few dimensions while still critiquing sexist attitudes.

This was neither, so I think it's clunky. I felt the same about the revelation two weeks ago that Andi hated Bandana for such a petty reason. Sometimes clunky writing is just clunky writing.

[Quild]

I have the feeling that all her lines were clunky. From the beginning.
Not because of what she says, but because of how she says it (The Cleric giants had the same kind of speech. The fighter one was just grunting which was weird too).

[KorvinStarmast]

I have the feeling that all her lines were clunky. From the beginning.
Not because of what she says, but because of how she says it (The Cleric giants had the same kind of speech. The fighter one was just grunting which was weird too).
1. She grew up in a tribal culture (Frost Giant culture is often presented as tribal in D&D, and seems to be close enough in ooTSverse to that archetype).
2. She's not speaking in her native tongue, so whatever comes out will be poor "common" / "English" just as with Oona up near Kraagor's tomb.
3. Tribal cultures are rarely matriarchies; default patriarchy model fits Frost Giant tribal culture. Reasonable to assume she's been dealing with Patriarchy mores and norms her whole life. She has certainly picked up on the trash talking skill ...
4. Face/image/reputation/bragging rights is important in tribal cultures (see also some forms of "locker room" culture and trash talking in sports ...)
5. Trash talking in combat: as Roy drops the "strong but silent" male giant, part of her Intimidation check is to boast to him (be it true or false) that he doesn't know who he's messing with, and that she's got a can of frost giant whoopass coming his way. Her boast is that she's the tougher giant warrior than the one Roy just dropped.
I accept her boast at face value: in tribal warfare, it is common for the better warriors to lead the charge. She led the charge down the slope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) before the giants leapt to the Mechane, and she's been shown to be the smarter of the two as she is the one who sliced open the gas bag on the way down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) She's now trying to slice open the other gas bag (Roy, aka Talky Man) with her axe.
6. Someone pointed to the segue to Haley as the narrative purpose for that last line. I think that's a solid point.
7. Roy's sword: Roy needs to use every point of his intelligence, or Elan needs to do "something" if the promised can of whoopass is to have its delivery interrupted. We thus have a bit of tension built up for the next strip. Whose going to stop this Frost Giant warrior now that she's got up a head of steam? She's angry, for multiple reasons it seems, and if I may quote the doctor who sometimes turned green and grew large:

You don't want to see me when I'm angry.

[Bedinsis]

I thought Belkar and Vaarsuvius(and Haley and Elan too for that matter) had the same skin colour; when did Belkar get so red?

I got fearful when I saw the title, and laughed at the second panel(it's just so filled with modern lingo that the contrast between what is going on and how it is described is highlighted).

[JumboWheat01]

Maybe the cold just affects Belkar more than the others. Living in a fairly cold area myself, I see a lot of flushed faces after they've been outside for a while.

[hamishspence]

I thought Belkar and Vaarsuvius(and Haley and Elan too for that matter) had the same skin colour; when did Belkar get so red?


V looks a bit paler than both Belkar and Haley.

[Kish]

You know, it occurs to me that this strip, yet again, drives home how badly Andi's messed up. Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Haley would be about to arrive to reinforce the Mechane, potentially saving the day from the loss of Roy's sword and from the multiple thwartings of Elan's attempts to cast Mending...

...except, because it turned off the pass, they don't know where to look for it.

[pendell]

Quite. This situation has been made immeasurably worse by Andi's meddling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Keltest]

Quite. This situation has been made immeasurably worse by Andi's meddling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Its like a theme, or something.

[Quild]

V may have cast Endure Elements on hirself and maybe on Haley. Or Haley has a wand for that.


1. She grew up in a tribal culture (Frost Giant culture is often presented as tribal in D&D, and seems to be close enough in ooTSverse to that archetype).
2. She's not speaking in her native tongue, so whatever comes out will be poor "common" / "English" just as with Oona up near Kraagor's tomb.
3. Tribal cultures are rarely matriarchies; default patriarchy model fits Frost Giant tribal culture. Reasonable to assume she's been dealing with Patriarchy mores and norms her whole life. She has certainly picked up on the trash talking skill ...
4. Face/image/reputation/bragging rights is important in tribal cultures (see also some forms of "locker room" culture and trash talking in sports ...)
5. Trash talking in combat: as Roy drops the "strong but silent" male giant, part of her Intimidation check is to boast to him (be it true or false) that he doesn't know who he's messing with, and that she's got a can of frost giant whoopass coming his way. Her boast is that she's the tougher giant warrior than the one Roy just dropped.
I accept her boast at face value: in tribal warfare, it is common for the better warriors to lead the charge. She led the charge down the slope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) before the giants leapt to the Mechane, and she's been shown to be the smarter of the two as she is the one who sliced open the gas bag on the way down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1060.html) She's now trying to slice open the other gas bag (Roy, aka Talky Man) with her axe.
6. Someone pointed to the segue to Haley as the narrative purpose for that last line. I think that's a solid point.
7. Roy's sword: Roy needs to use every point of his intelligence, or Elan needs to do "something" if the promised can of whoopass is to have its delivery interrupted. We thus have a bit of tension built up for the next strip. Whose going to stop this Frost Giant warrior now that she's got up a head of steam? She's angry, for multiple reasons it seems, and if I may quote the doctor who sometimes turned green and grew large:

You don't want to see me when I'm angry.

What? I don't understand how your response is related to my message.
I didn't judged the way she talked. I said that if the dialogue seems clunky to some here, it may be because of that rather than because of what she talks about. But I'm aware it reaaaaally isn't the first time someone speaks differently than the others in OOTS.

[Quibblicious]

The ship is below 10,000 feet, not on the pass, circling around a mountain, and aiming for a different pass. This will guarantee not finding it.

Plus, humans tend to do poorly over 10K feet thanks to the lack of atmosphere. It's not immediately debilitating but it does have negative effects until you adapt to it. Pretty much anything over about 5000 feet is considered high altitude and takes some time to adapt to.

Q

[Lord Torath]

It would be kinda awesome if you could defeat psionics with tinfoil.This guy might be able to give you some pointers (https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fprop-replica.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F2%2F5%2F7%2F125 74326%2F6359408_orig.jpg&f=1).


I might have titled it "in Soviet Russia, Ship Abandons You!":Nah. Rich is saving that joke for the North Pole and the bugbears. (Nod. Get treat!).

[Alcore]

Only as long as you continue to fight for sexism, rather than against it.

The way I see it (it's a really funny view) is that your all sexist. I must lump myself with the rest of you but that only adds to the funny. Whether your building the wall or tearing the wall of sexism down your all dancing in the Playground of Sexism.


"This is a joke. This is all a joke." :smallbiggrin:
- The Comedian

[GloatingSwine]

Quite. This situation has been made immeasurably worse by Andi's meddling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Andi would say that she was engaging in strategic, long term thinking. Leaving the pass solved the wide ranging big picture frost giant problem, the fact that there's still an angry frost giant on the ship is incidental detail. (and even if she counted on Roy to solve that there's be an angry 15th or so level fighter on the ship)

[Cifer]

I must say I like the strip. And the giantess. And the Giant. Yeah, it's a little heavy handed - turns out giants have heavy hands. But by weaving in the social commentary in the middle rather than the final punchline, it IMO works better than the double one with Bandana's girlfriend plus Haley's messed up female relationships.

As for wondering whether holding back enough to get the other guy killed is bad… I think it makes perfect sense when you factor in that she's not just an oppressed fighting woman, but also quite probably an evil being in an evil culture. Want to make sure your deeds are recognized? Engineer things so that there's noone to contradict you and noone whom the success over Thrym's enemies could possibly be attributed to other than you. Combine lifelong oppression, a risk-taking nature (or else she would have stayed in the kitchen - do frost giants have kitchens?) and a severe lack of moral restrictions regarding letting your comrades die for your ambitions and this is exactly what you get.

[Psyren]

For the folks who had a problem with the Giantess holding back until now, just headcanon that seeing her comrade fall made her Frenzy or something. Use whatever blunt instruments you deem necessary to achieve this goal.

[JumboWheat01]

This guy might be able to give you some pointers (https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fprop-replica.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F2%2F5%2F7%2F125 74326%2F6359408_orig.jpg&f=1).

Unfortunately, I don't think that's tinfoil. Still, fair point.

[Shining Wrath]

Plus, humans tend to do poorly over 10K feet thanks to the lack of atmosphere. It's not immediately debilitating but it does have negative effects until you adapt to it. Pretty much anything over about 5000 feet is considered high altitude and takes some time to adapt to.

Q

Living in Denver you learn to pace visitors. Don't take someone from sea level to see Rocky Mountain National Park their first day in town. I get a little winded at the top of a 14,000 foot peak even though I live over 5,000.

[KorvinStarmast]

What? I don't understand how your response is related to my message. The opening was a response to the "clunky language" with an alternative view, and then I just went ahead an appended my take on the Lady Frost Giant's boasting/bragging/trashtaking in general. You got two posts for the price of one. (Limited time offer, ends on St Patrick's Day). What I wasn't doing was arguing with you. I might ought to have used "reply to thread" button rather than "reply to so and so" but it wasn't showing on my screen.

For the folks who had a problem with the Giantess holding back until now, just head canon that seeing her comrade fall made her Frenzy or something. Use whatever blunt instruments you deem necessary to achieve this goal. Makes sense if the Frost Giant culture has a lot of barbarian overtones ...

[gooddragon1]

That answers one of my questions, albeit with an assertion that I wholly disagree with (there is no reason for a man who doesn't take credit for his female colleagues' work to identify with the male frost giants she's complaining about). It doesn't answer the other one.

It's an insult against a group of people, and two wrongs don't make a right.

[Laurana]

Finally a good strip, with some great lines from the Belkster. I was starting to tire of the Andi-focussed ones.

[Ruslan]

Ah yes, this is a common misconception that many people share :vaarsuvius: the belief that just because a work is grounded in a fantasy setting with fictional races and powers that must mean that basic reason and logic have no reason to exist and that "everything goes no matter how absurd or jarring".

Needless to say, that's not how it works. Fictional elements like magic swords or giants don't invalidate basic natural behaviour and rationale like the one the giantess is displaying here, even moreso since it's clearly grounded in our reality, which is why it feels jarring: a real person wouldn't behave like that.
No, a real person would behave exactly like that. That's what makes the Giantess' banter funny. If you're not finding it funny, it's because you just don't understand how those things work in the real world. Or choose not to understand.

[137beth]

Andi's poor decision continues to hurt.

[Kish]

It's an insult against a group of people, and two wrongs don't make a right.
That's fascinatingly disconnected. Putting together your two assertions ("The nature of jokes is to be at the expense of others" "It's an insult against a group of people, and two wrongs don't make a right" (which requires the unstated premise "it's wrong to insult a group of people even if simply describing them accurately is the insult in question")), I note that you have now, in effect, stated that humor is inherently morally wrong, which means I wonder how it's taken you 1068 strips to notice that what was going up on this website was the ultimate abomination unto your sight, an entire work designed to be humorous.

However, you still haven't answered my question. What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

[Snails]

You know, it occurs to me that this strip, yet again, drives home how badly Andi's messed up. Vaarsuvius, Belkar, and Haley would be about to arrive to reinforce the Mechane, potentially saving the day from the loss of Roy's sword and from the multiple thwartings of Elan's attempts to cast Mending...

...except, because it turned off the pass, they don't know where to look for it.

The timing is not entirely a coincidence. Andi started to panic in response to the heaviest hitters entering the fray (the spellcasters and the three elite barbarian-leveled giants), because apparently the ambush had a rough plan that the less strong would soften up the target before the mightiest finished the task.

Andi implicitly made the guess that these giants jumping on board were evidence that the ambush would continue to get even worse as they travelled down the pass. Of course, Andi was confused on multiple important observable facts, such as suggesting the PCs who were clearing the path were abandoning the ship. Which just goes to show that reacting abruptly to bad news is not a substitute for having a plan, among other things.

[Unoriginal]

It's an insult against a group of people, and two wrongs don't make a right.

How is that an insult against a group of people?


The timing is not entirely a coincidence. Andi started to panic in response to the heaviest hitters entering the fray (the spellcasters and the three elite barbarian-leveled giants), because apparently the ambush had a rough plan that the less strong would soften up the target before the mightiest finished the task.

Andi implicitly made the guess that these giants jumping on board were evidence that the ambush would continue to get even worse as they travelled down the pass. Of course, Andi was confused on multiple important observable facts, such as suggesting the PCs who were clearing the path were abandoning the ship. Which just goes to show that reacting abruptly to bad news is not a substitute for having a plan, among other things.

Technically she started to panic before the elite melee combatants showed up, and she apparently didn't notice the spellcasters since she thought the adventurers busy with fighting them were abandoning the ship. But it's true she really started to lose it when the third Frost Giant jumped into the propellers.

[Tyrannosaurus]

Andi would say that she was engaging in strategic, long term thinking. Leaving the pass solved the wide ranging big picture frost giant problem, the fact that there's still an angry frost giant on the ship is incidental detail. (and even if she counted on Roy to solve that there's be an angry 15th or so level fighter on the ship)

I'm pretty sure we discussed how Anti's incompetent buffoonery would leave the party abandoned. Andi wouldn't say she was engaging in strategic, long term thinking. She would say she was "solving the problem at hand" because her woefully unsatisfactory analysis only managed to identify one of the 4 active problems plaguing the ship and that's not to mention the myriad of problems her "solution" would cause. That being said, the current Andi-less strip is welcome even if the consequences of her actions are far reaching.

[Mx56]

Regarding the "clunkiness" or otherwise of this bit of dialogue, the fact that it doesn't quite belong in a quasi-medieval fantasy world is the joke. It's a fairly consistent running theme in the humour of the comic as well, the OOTS-verse pretty frequently has bits of flavour or little jokes that seem anachronistic in the context of a high fantasy setting, e.g.:
Demonic TeeVo/Blind Date with a medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)
Team Evil's payroll forms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)
The Test of the Heart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html)
A fiendish coalition that uses the aesthetic and language of corporate America (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)
Basically everything about this entire subplot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

Much as I hate to kill a joke by explaining it, for me the humour lies in the incogruity of the phrasing and the heavy nod and a wink to the audience that entails. Incogruity and absurdity being, IMO, the actual core of humour rather than being a jerk to people ;)

[Snails]

But nobody is complaining about the strips conclusion of a social justice point (maybe someone did, but thats not what the ongoing discussion is about).

Well, it can be difficult to see it as just a simple complaint about it being awkward dialogue or a doubt that the tactical choice makes enough sense that anyone would do that, when so very early in the discussion the conclusion jumped towards is the giantess is probably dumb.

Being very quick to jump to conclusions has an unsurprising tendency to get other people to be quicker than usual to jump to conclusions in response. Maybe there is a useful lesson somewhere in there about how not to get ganged up on in an internet forum?

As for the giantess' assertions, I continue to be amazed about how worked up people can get about an argument built on the assumption someone's dialogue should be accepted as either 100% factually true or intended to be 100% factually true. There are all kinds of reasons why such assertions may be misleading, both innocent and less than innocent reasons. The context of this dialogue is comical combat banter after all -- she could be talking herself up to intimidate Roy or buttress her own courage.

I, for one, find the giantess' claims perfectly plausible, while I also do not feel any need to come to firm conclusions about the exact truth of her claims. Keeping an open mind leaves me free to enjoy the humor of the dialogue at multiple levels.

[Unoriginal]

IMO I'd say the "clunky" impression is maybe due to how the speech bubbles are displayed on the page.

[aurilee]

Regarding the "clunkiness" or otherwise of this bit of dialogue, the fact that it doesn't quite belong in a quasi-medieval fantasy world is the joke. It's a fairly consistent running theme in the humour of the comic as well, the OOTS-verse pretty frequently has bits of flavour or little jokes that seem anachronistic in the context of a high fantasy setting, e.g.:
Demonic TeeVo/Blind Date with a medusa (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html)
Team Evil's payroll forms (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)
The Test of the Heart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html)
A fiendish coalition that uses the aesthetic and language of corporate America (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)
Basically everything about this entire subplot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html)

Much as I hate to kill a joke by explaining it, for me the humour lies in the incogruity of the phrasing and the heavy nod and a wink to the audience that entails. Incogruity and absurdity being, IMO, the actual core of humour rather than being a jerk to people ;)

Yup.

I made a post saying a similar thing a few pages back.

Some people still don't get it, it seems.

*sigh*

(again)

[littlebum2002]

The mental gymnastics required to formulate your reply to my post after quoting the first line of my post talking about the need for full context and then proceeding to focus on two posts is astounding. Gold star.

If you insist:


Ooo, going from straw person to cherry picking. You're on a roll.

The whole conversation:

Ganbatte: She held back?! Holding back is dumb.
Spellbreaker26: I get the joke, but it's a bad corollary to real life.
Grey_Wolf_c: This thing happens IRL.
Me: it's not sexism just because it happens, so it doesn't make the use in this context more believable
You: This one is sexist because giant said so, whats your problem?
Me: That isn't relevant to the conversation about the believability of the context. Stop beating that dead horse.
You: OUT OF CONTEXT RE-ENGINEERED QUOTES!

See? I can do that, too.

Let me correct your summary (since the summary you gave for some of the quotes in question has nothing to do with the actual content of those quotes)

Ganbatte: She held back?! Holding back is dumb.
Spellbreaker26: I get the joke, but it's a bad corollary to real life.
Grey_Wolf_c: This thing happens IRL.
Zernin: Not everything is about sexism
hroþila: That is correct. Not everything is about sexism, but some things are
Zernin: That is a straw-man argument
hroþila: I'm pretty sure it isn't


It was very clear from this exchange that you don't actually know what the term "straw man" means. And, so that everyone else can understand how ridiculous your claim is, and so you can't claim anything is out of context, I'll post the entire chain here for their convenience:


I don't get it. Why would that giant snow woman be afraid to take credit for her work and own strenght? Why would she willingly downplay herself and then blame it on her male colleagues?

Sounds kinda dumb to me.

Because of all the forms of sexism that might exist in a gender-integrated combat unit, having anyone perform less-than-their best seems fairly low down based purely on the fact that you won't last very long.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of women being denied a shot at higher ranks, or maltreated off the battlefield, but that specific form of sexism seems like something that wouldn't happen on the actual battlefield.

That's not what she said. She said that even if she does perform better, she is pressured to say that the male fighters did most of the work - i.e. she does the work, they get the medals.

Like hroþila said, there is plenty examples in RL of this very situation going on, in the military and in many other fields.

There are plenty of examples of people taking credit for other peoples work without it being motivated by sexism. Contrary to the third wave belief, every action isn't motivated by sexism. Some (maybe most) people are just self indulgent *******s.

Not every action is motivated by sexism. But many are. Including the one the comic is talking about and its real-world parallels. What's the problem?

How many more Straw People are we going to have set up in this thrad about how Word of Giant makes it so that this character faces sexism in an attempt to invalidate discussion? Nobody has ever argued that to not be the case. People are stating that it feels forced. So I guess I should thank you for proving the point by invoking that fact that the truth of the situation is indeed locked in by the author? :smallconfused:

[gooddragon1]

That's fascinatingly disconnected. Putting together your two assertions ("The nature of jokes is to be at the expense of others" "It's an insult against a group of people, and two wrongs don't make a right" (which requires the unstated premise "it's wrong to insult a group of people even if simply describing them accurately is the insult in question")), I note that you have now, in effect, stated that humor is inherently morally wrong, which means I wonder how it's taken you 1068 strips to notice that what was going up on this website was the ultimate abomination unto your sight, an entire work designed to be humorous.

However, you still haven't answered my question. What approach would possibly promote dialogue with people whose fundamental premise is that an easily observable aspect of reality must never be acknowledged, even assuming such is a desirable goal?

To answer your second question first: I don't know.

Humor is fine. People don't have to be thin skinned. But using it to try to convince people they are wrong will put them on the defensive. Making fun of someone isn't going to get them to listen to you.

How is it an insult to accurately describe them? I could address someone with a speech impediment by that speech impediment in place of their name (yes, sexism is a choice, but see further about generalizing and there being more to people). It would be an insult. This is publicly shaming them and generalizing them. There is more to these people than just their sexism. By making these kinds of jokes we are generalizing them just as they generalize females. Ultimately, humiliating people by pointing out their flaws (even if it's true), will not get them to listen to you. It feels good to do it, but it's a path to the dark side.

[Kish]

I only asked the one question there. But you did, finally, after I asked it three times, answer it (with "I don't know.").

I think your apparent premise that Rich is trying to get sexist men to think "I should be not-sexist" is in error.

I think your apparent premise that all social progress, or any significant social progress, has been accomplished by sweetly and gently explaining to people who hold backward views that they shouldn't hold those views while carefully avoiding implying that those views are in fact incorrect, is so thoroughly wrong it's verging on "not even wrong" territory.