What's the purpose of Fog Cloud? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sharur

2017-03-15, 06:01 PM

The advantage on attacks one makes and disadvantage on attacks made against you don't always cancel out.

Consider the following scenarios, Caster casts fog cloud, Ally is allied to the Castor, Foe is against the caster:
1) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can step out of Fog Cloud to attack at range, and then return to cover.
2) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can work on escaping or healing rather than fighting.
3) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can attack with abilities that force saving throws, rather than attack rolls.
4) Castor/Ally are being attacked in melee by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Foe is a heavy hitter and his targets are low on hit points. Its more important to not get hit than to hit.Fog Cloud can cover retreat, granting disadvantage on any opportunity attacks.
5) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on Foe (remember 120ft range), giving disadvantage to hit. Castor/Ally can then attack with AoE or saving throw attacks.
6) Foe is a rogue (or rouge-like). Denying foe advantage is more important then receiving disadvantage.
7) Foe uses gaze attacks, and being heavily obscured prevents this (admittedly this is a house rule, but I believe being heavily obscured is akin to blindness...)
8) Castor/Ally is a wizard who favors Magic Missile, and doesn't care.
9. Castor/Ally already have disadvantage. Adding more disadvantage is doesn't make it worse.

EDIT: Wow, I must have taken a long time to make this list; there weren't any responses when I started.

AttilatheYeon

2017-03-15, 06:12 PM

Fog Cloud is great for eliminating advantage from Pack tactics or a Reckless Attack.

Desamir

2017-03-15, 06:14 PM

So far it looks like the uses for RAW Fog Cloud include:

Everyone can stealth
No more opportunity attacks
Negating existing advantage/disadvantage
Blocking line of sight to make spellcasting more difficult

The advantage on attacks one makes and disadvantage on attacks made against you don't always cancel out.

Consider the following scenarios, Caster casts fog cloud, Ally is allied to the Castor, Foe is against the caster:
1) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can step out of Fog Cloud to attack at range, and then return to cover.
2) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can work on escaping or healing rather than fighting.
3) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Castor and Ally can attack with abilities that force saving throws, rather than attack rolls.
4) Castor/Ally are being attacked in melee by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on self, giving Foe disadvantage to hit. Foe is a heavy hitter and his targets are low on hit points. Its more important to not get hit than to hit.Fog Cloud can cover retreat, granting disadvantage on any opportunity attacks.
5) Castor/Ally are being attacked at range by Foe. Caster casts Fog Cloud on Foe (remember 120ft range), giving disadvantage to hit. Castor/Ally can then attack with AoE or saving throw attacks.
6) Foe is a rogue (or rouge-like). Denying foe advantage is more important then receiving disadvantage.
7) Foe uses gaze attacks, and being heavily obscured prevents this (admittedly this is a house rule, but I believe being heavily obscured is akin to blindness...)
8) Castor/Ally is a wizard who favors Magic Missile, and doesn't care.
9. Castor/Ally already have disadvantage. Adding more disadvantage is doesn't make it worse.

EDIT: Wow, I must have taken a long time to make this list; there weren't any responses when I started.

#1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 don't work because the disadvantage your enemy gets for attacking blindly is canceled out by the advantage they get for being unseen. #8 doesn't work because Magic Missile can only target creatures you can see.

#7 does work because gaze attacks do require sight.

#6 and #9 sort of work. Fog Cloud would cancel out all existing advantage/disadvantage, making everyone attack normally.

That said, I've mostly seen it ruled as disadvantage, not advantage and disadvantage cancelling out, when both sides are in the fog. I know that's not RAW but I saw it ruled that way even in AL many times.

This is exactly how my group chose to houserule it, and it feels much better.

DanyBallon

2017-03-15, 06:14 PM

SharkForce

2017-03-15, 06:15 PM

there are times where someone being unable to see you is extremely valuable. for example, most fights against a spellcaster.

Desamir

2017-03-15, 06:19 PM

I've got a question, in the case of a Fog Cloud cast over characters in melee with foes. Would you allow the character or the enemy to move out of range without provoking an AoO? As for myself I would, but I'd like to know how you guys would rule it?

Yep. That lines up with the book:

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

DanyBallon

2017-03-15, 06:24 PM

Yep. That lines up with the book:

Thanks for the PHB quote! I didn't have it at hand :smallbiggrin:

Tanarii

2017-03-15, 06:36 PM

#1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 don't work because the disadvantage your enemy gets for attacking blindly is canceled out by the advantage they get for being unseen. #8 doesn't work because Magic Missile can only target creatures you can see.Oh lord, I thought the 'attacking unseen' advantage came from the DEFENDER being blinded, not the attacker being concealed, so it only canceled out at melee range. And that's how I've been running it too, which is why I said 'cast it on archers'. /facepalm

Yeah, I think I'm going to just make my 'archers' house-rule, since that's what it appears to be, global. You have to be able to see your target to get the 'unseen attacker' advantage to your attack rolls due to you being concealed. I may make it due to any reason, so as not to separate defender (effectively) blinded vs attacker concealed.

Kane0

2017-03-15, 06:44 PM

Pretty much any spell or ability that uses the phrase 'that you can see' doesn't work, because it blocks line of sight. That includes opportunity attacks as mentioned above.

RickAllison

2017-03-15, 07:35 PM

It is also useful for when you have frighten effects. Those prevent approach when they can see the subject of their fear, but this removes that issue.

JellyPooga

2017-03-15, 07:39 PM

Fog Cloud is also straight up better than Darkness; larger AoE, lower level, better scaling. Go figure. Only downside is that it can be dispersed by a strong wind, but how often do those occur?

SharkForce

2017-03-15, 07:51 PM

Fog Cloud is also straight up better than Darkness; larger AoE, lower level, better scaling. Go figure. Only downside is that it can be dispersed by a strong wind, but how often do those occur?

and for some reason, WotC seems comparatively willing to hand out the ability to see through magical darkness like candy, so you can potentially synergize with it better (but you can also potentially run into enemies who can also see right through it).

Addaran

2017-03-15, 08:06 PM

and for some reason, WotC seems comparatively willing to hand out the ability to see through magical darkness like candy, so you can potentially synergize with it better (but you can also potentially run into enemies who can also see right through it).

Awww, i was gonna say exactly that. Fog Cloud isn't countered by devil/demon/warlock.

MrStabby

2017-03-15, 08:07 PM

Fog Cloud is also straight up better than Darkness; larger AoE, lower level, better scaling. Go figure. Only downside is that it can be dispersed by a strong wind, but how often do those occur?

Well darkness can be moved more easily.

Fog cloud is a pretty awesome spell and you can cover pretty big areas by upcasting it.

My most common use is to just take enemies out of the fight. If they are movement constrained, say behind a rampart, then fog cloud can mean they do nothing and gives you a lot of freedom.

Desamir

2017-03-16, 12:48 AM

Fog cloud is a pretty awesome spell and you can cover pretty big areas by upcasting it.

My most common use is to just take enemies out of the fight. If they are movement constrained, say behind a rampart, then fog cloud can mean they do nothing and gives you a lot of freedom.

It certainly gets pretty big with upcasting, but I'm curious what you mean by "taking enemies out of the fight." Fog Cloud has little or no impact on attack rolls, for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.

NNescio

2017-03-16, 02:02 AM

Since advantage (from being unseen) and disadvantage (from being unable to see) cancel out, I'm struggling to find a use for Fog Cloud. What is the purpose of this spell?

It's for killing Beholders.

...okay, not just Beholders, but the point of Fog Cloud is that it effectively blocks Line of Sight by creating an area of Heavy Obscurement (which blinds all creatures within). The most direct consequence of this is that spells and other abilities that rely on LoS (e.g. "The beholder shoots three of the following magical eye rays at random, choosing one to three targets it can see") fail to work completely. This also shuts off most short-range teleporation options, like Misty Step or some Fiends' innate teleporation, as they usually rely on LoS.

What make the LoS-blocking ability exceptionally strong is that most enemies you face are not immune to it. Truesight can't pierce it, and neither can Devil's Sight (both of which can pierce through Darkness). Even creatures with Tremorsense aren't technically immune either (they can pinpoint creatures, but LoS is still blocked). Blindsight would work though (arguable depending on how the DM interprets "perceive", but this has other unintended consequences if the DM doesn't let Blindsight pierce fog).

The other use, as you have said, is to grant disadvantage against attackers who can't see their targets, and advantage for attackers who can't be seen by their targets. On the surface, this seems useless, as disadvantage and advantage cancel each other out. There are some ways to exploit this however:

1) Attackers has advantage (usually via pack tactics) and you don't. Since one source of disadvantage negates however many sources of advantage, this effectively negates advantage on the enemies' side without affecting your party.

2) Ranged fights. Centering a Fog Cloud on your position lets you and your allies step out of the cloud to take pot shots at your targets (without disadvantage) before retreating into the Fog Cloud. Enemies are forced to either shoot at your party at disadvantage, or ready actions to hit you and your party when they step out (which either denies Multiattack/Extra Attack, or requires concentration for enemies who ready spells).

3) Somebody in the party has the Alert feat. Unseen enemies don't get advantage when they attack Alert characters, so they still have disadvantage on attacks against them (since there's no longer any advantage to cancel it out). This gives an edge to Alert creatures who fight in Heavy Obscurement.

4) Somebody in the party has some source of alternate senses. Usually this is Blindsight via a Druid's Wild Shape or a high level Rogue. These guys can still fight normally within their Blindsight radius, unlike your enemies (e.g. Fog Cloud + Wild Shape into Giant Spider or Giant Constrictor Snake is a nasty low level trick for Druids).

Less directly, Fog Cloud can also be used to help set up the battlefield by laying traps or using other BFC spells (or even Illusions) to exploit the fact that your opponents can't see what you're doing. This can also be used to bait enemies into falling into terrain hazards. Also, if your DM isn't one of those "all creatures magically know the positions of all creatures who aren't Hiding" types (which similarly hoses Invisibility for non-rogues, for that matter), the Cloud can also be used to obscure your own movement (forcing enemies to choose the correct square to hit you).

MrStabby

2017-03-16, 05:27 AM

It certainly gets pretty big with upcasting, but I'm curious what you mean by "taking enemies out of the fight." Fog Cloud has little or no impact on attack rolls, for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.

Well you don't have to fight them. You can just hide and sneak past them if they can't easily move into a position to spot you.

MrMcBobb

2017-03-16, 05:35 AM

Go Moon Druid - Take Sentinel feat - Take Fog Cloud - Cast Fog Cloud on BBEG - Wildshape into a Giant spider (blindsight 10ft) - Murder the **** out of BBEG - Win :smallcool:

Desamir

2017-03-16, 12:40 PM

2) Ranged fights. Centering a Fog Cloud on your position lets you and your allies step out of the cloud to take pot shots at your targets (without disadvantage) before retreating into the Fog Cloud. Enemies are forced to either shoot at your party at disadvantage, or ready actions to hit you and your party when they step out (which either denies Multiattack/Extra Attack, or requires concentration for enemies who ready spells).

You made some good points, I just wanted to point out that the bolded part doesn't work. The disadvantage enemies get for being unable to see you is canceled out by the advantage they get for your party being unable to see them.

Fishyninja

2017-03-16, 01:06 PM

Setting the ambience for campfire stories.

Deathtongue

2017-03-16, 01:19 PM

You made some good points, I just wanted to point out that the bolded part doesn't work. The disadvantage enemies get for being unable to see you is canceled out by the advantage they get for your party being unable to see them.

The idea is that you use half of your movement or whatever to step out of the Fog Cloud, take a few potshots, then use the rest of your movement to slip back in the cloud.

Dalebert

2017-03-16, 01:45 PM

Folks have covered already most of what I was going to say--

* Casters stepping out, blasting, then stepping back in for concealment
* Beholders HATE this or Darkness. Without caster support to dispel, you will slaughter them quickly.
* Druids turning into things with blindsight

One thing that occurred to me is the Alert feat. It acts sort of like a blind-fighting ability. You attack normally while your enemies have disadvantage. This is because you don't grant enemies advantage for being hidden. Thus they have nothing to cancel out their disadvantage for not being able to see you.

So Fog Cloud could be a good choice for a melee character like an EK with the Alert feat. Also, ATs might like it because they eventually get blindsight to 10 ft. As was pointed out, Darkness moves with you but the problem is more things see through it.

Desamir

2017-03-16, 02:46 PM

The idea is that you use half of your movement or whatever to step out of the Fog Cloud, take a few potshots, then use the rest of your movement to slip back in the cloud.

I understand, but stepping back into the fog cloud doesn't grant you that benefit. While you're in the cloud, your attackers can't see you, so they have disadvantage, but you can't see them, so they also have advantage, which cancels out.

So Fog Cloud could be a good choice for a melee character like an EK with the Alert feat. Also, ATs might like it because they eventually get blindsight to 10 ft. As was pointed out, Darkness moves with you but the problem is more things see through it.

The interaction with Alert is interesting. It's worth noting that Rogues don't actually get blindsight. They get a watered-down version that tells you the location of things, but doesn't negate the disadvantage.

High-level Rangers do have a disadvantage-negating ability, however.

RickAllison

2017-03-16, 02:54 PM

I understand, but stepping back into the fog cloud doesn't grant you that benefit. While you're in the cloud, your attackers can't see you, so they have disadvantage, but you can't see them, so they also have advantage, which cancels out.

Part of that one is very DM-dependent. While it makes sense that those in melee can hear the scuffling of others while blinded and thus hone in on them, the ranged personnel Fog Cloud is used on may be far enough away that they should not be able to distinguish anyone's position by sound. If a DM is strict about everyone knowing the exact position of everyone else if Hide isn't used, then it doesn't work well. If a DM rules that the sound 120 feet away and 3 degrees to the right is clearly distinguishable from the same sound 120 feet away and 3.5 degrees to the right, then it is average at best. But if a DM rules that sound that far away and over such a small degree is not as clear then you have archers having to guess where the PCs are.

Deathtongue

2017-03-16, 03:57 PM

I understand, but stepping back into the fog cloud doesn't grant you that benefit. While you're in the cloud, your attackers can't see you, so they have disadvantage, but you can't see them, so they also have advantage, which cancels out.
You go first, enemy goes second.

1.) Your turn starts. You, the ranged attacker, are in the fog cloud. Your enemy is not. Both of you have disadvantage against each other, assuming either of you can even pinpoint the square you're in.

2.) You pop out of your cloud using half of your movement. You and your enemy no longer have disadvantage from the fog against each other and can pinpoint each other.

3.) You make a ranged attack. Neither of you have disadvantage from the fog against each other.

4.) You go back into the cloud with the remainder of your movement.. Your enemy is still not in the cloud. Both of you have disadvantage against each other, assuming either of you can even pinpoint the square you're in.

5.) You end your turn.

6.) Your enemy's turn begin. They, also a ranged attacker, are not in the fog cloud. You are. Both of you have disadvantage against each other.

Now, there are ways to subvert this, most notably with a readied attack. However, there are ways to subvert the readied attack itself; most notably, making an area attack from within the fog cloud or summoning a monster or using the opportunity to heal or buff or whatever. Assuming the trigger is 'when the enemy escapes the fog cloud', it never goes off and you have a free turn.

Also, note the strict wording of abilities like Extra Attack. You can only get extra attacks when it's your turn. When you make an attack as a readied attack, you only get the one. You also can't make an attack as a bonus action. So if you're something like, say, a mid-level ranger with Sharpshooter you'll be getting three attacks to your opponents' one.

Xetheral

2017-03-16, 04:29 PM

1.) Your turn starts. You, the ranged attacker, are in the fog cloud. Your enemy is not. Both of you have disadvantage against each other, assuming either of you can even pinpoint the square you're in.

Your problem is in step 1. It should be: "You, the ranged attacker, are in the fog cloud. Your enemy is not. Both of you attack each other normally, assuming either of you can even pinpoint the square you're in."

This is because although the inability to see gives you both disadvantage, you also both have advantage because you are each an Unseen Attacker. The advantage and disadvantage cancel out.

KorvinStarmast

2017-03-16, 06:03 PM

My tempest cleric used it with some frequency to break up groups of enemies for a round or two so we could defeat them in detail. Depending on the terrain and are we were fighting it was pretty effective.

Another time we used it to steal a wagon.

LudicSavant

2017-03-16, 06:22 PM

Since advantage (from being unseen) and disadvantage (from being unable to see) cancel out, I'm struggling to find a use for Fog Cloud. What is the purpose of this spell?

1) You can take advantage of non-sight reliant senses to leverage a considerable advantage. For example, Animated Objects have Blindsight. So does, say, your Druid pal who just transformed into a Giant Spider or a Giant Scorpion. And your bat familiar.

2) While advantage and disadvantage cancel out, enemies still need to correctly locate your square, or the attack automatically fails. (PHB 194) Making attacks gives away your position, but you can move after attacking, or simply not use tactics dependent on attack rolls.

The real question is how to determine whether enemies are in hearing range of you or not. I can't seem to find any rules on this, which is a bit frustrating given how many rules are dependent on hearing ranges.

3) Stop enemy casters from counterspelling. They cannot Counterspell you if they cannot see you. (PHB pg228)

4) Make a Frightened character stop seeing the object of their fear.

5) Escaping melee range unscathed (Enemies who can't see you can't OA you at all! Drop Fog Cloud and run out! PHB pg195). Way better than using Disengage action when combined with any of the spell's other uses.

6) Set traps that enemies cannot see, and therefore have trouble avoiding or countering. They'll wander around blindly trying to find their way out of the cloud, taking damage from spike growth or whatever the whole time.

7) Opportunities to hide.

8) Shut down gaze attacks.

9) Take better advantage of terrain. Also, make it harder for enemies to see the terrain, which can be hazardous in some cases (or make it harder for them to, say, figure out how to circumvent your game-changing Cover bonus).

Strill

2017-03-16, 07:52 PM

Dalebert

2017-03-16, 09:53 PM

It's worth noting that Rogues don't actually get blindsight. They get a watered-down version that tells you the location of things, but doesn't negate the disadvantage.

OMG, that's pathetic for a lvl 14 class feature.

Strill

2017-03-16, 10:01 PM

It's worth noting that Rogues don't actually get blindsight. They get a watered-down version that tells you the location of things, but doesn't negate the disadvantage.

What's the point of that? You already know where everyone is unless they've used the Hide action or cast Silence.

Desamir

2017-03-16, 11:51 PM

I think it's dumb that you have both advantage and disadvantage, so I'm considering the following houserule:

"When a creature can't see you, but you can see it, you have advantage on attack rolls against it."

Therefore, attacking into or out of a Fog Cloud would give Disadvantage, unless you have blindsight or tremorsense or something. Would this break the game or allow for some OP combo?

This is how my group houserules it (and Tanarii's as well, apparently). It works just fine.

OMG, that's pathetic for a lvl 14 class feature.

Right? With a 10-foot range, this ought to be straight up blindsight.

What's the point of that? You already know where everyone is unless they've used the Hide action or cast Silence.

The existence of this feature, as well as the second part of Feral Senses (you are aware of the location of any non-hidden invisible creature within 30 feet of you), is why many players--myself included--believe that you don't automatically pinpoint everyone else.

There was a very long thread about this a while back, here is the summary of arguments on both sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All).

Strill

2017-03-17, 12:32 AM

The existence of this feature, as well as the second part of Feral Senses (you are aware of the location of any non-hidden invisible creature within 30 feet of you), is why many players--myself included--believe that you don't automatically pinpoint everyone else.

There was a very long thread about this a while back, here is the summary of arguments on both sides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All).

Guess I've gotta go back and figure out how Hiding even works then.

Saeviomage

2017-03-17, 01:25 AM

Guess I've gotta go back and figure out how Hiding even works then.

You and the devs...

LudicSavant

2017-03-17, 11:35 AM

You and the devs...

Indeed.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All&p=20032860#post20032860

I would like to see ideas from the community about how to make proper rules for hearing range / determining if you can locate a non-hiding enemy / etc.

JBPuffin

2017-03-17, 11:39 AM

So far it looks like the uses for RAW Fog Cloud include:

Everyone can stealth
No more opportunity attacks
Negating existing advantage/disadvantage
Blocking line of sight to make spellcasting more difficult

#1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 don't work because the disadvantage your enemy gets for attacking blindly is canceled out by the advantage they get for being unseen. #8 doesn't work because Magic Missile can only target creatures you can see.

#7 does work because gaze attacks do require sight.

#6 and #9 sort of work. Fog Cloud would cancel out all existing advantage/disadvantage, making everyone attack normally.

This is exactly how my group chose to houserule it, and it feels much better.

Um...you can move-attack-move in 5e...That alone makes this sooo much better for archer/caster squads.

Desamir

2017-03-17, 01:02 PM

Um...you can move-attack-move in 5e...That alone makes this sooo much better for archer/caster squads.

Caster squads yes, archer squads no.

djreynolds

2017-03-18, 03:45 AM

A beach landing and having to wade through water, difficult terrain. A ranger guiding his party casts this in the woods, it might not set off alarms like darkness would.

Rogozhin

2017-03-18, 12:09 PM

Fog cloud + faerie fire + ranged attacks = fun!

NNescio

2017-03-19, 07:16 AM

Fog cloud + faerie fire + ranged attacks = fun!

Doesn't work that way though. In 5e Faerie fire negates invisibility ("...affected creature or object can't benefit from being invisible"), not all cases of being unseen. It does nothing to negate heavily obscured areas (unless the heavy obscurement was due to darkness, in which case Faerie Fire changes darkness [not the Darkness spell, unless Faerie Fire is upcasted] into dim light).

The 3.5e or 3.PF Faerie Fire could potentially work that way, as they negated concealment "normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects". DMs back then sometimes ruled that the Fog Cloud (and other fog spells) was a "similar effect", in which case the 3.5e/3.PF Faerie Fire would negate concealment provided by fogs.

5e obscurement rules differ significantly from concealment rules in past editions, and Faerie Fire is now written differently, so FF would no longer outline targets in Fog Cloud (technically it still outlines them, but you can't see it).

Dudu

2017-03-19, 07:30 AM

Tanarii

2017-03-19, 08:15 AM

^ Exactly.

The step out attack step in cover is great for Rogues that can hide with bonus action. A lot of sneak attacks in an open field for a ranged rogue.
They don't get sneak attack, because after stepping out they have neither advantage nor are hidden. So no advantage on the attack rolls.

It does mean they can hide pretty easy every round, unless you DM rules you need to be unseen at the beginning of your turn to hide or something like that. (There is at least one frequent poster who does exactly that and argues that it's RAW so I thought I'd just toss it in. I don't rule it that way myself.)

Unoriginal

2017-03-19, 09:02 AM

Only downside is that it can be dispersed by a strong wind, but how often do those occur?

Wind magic or blows powerful enough to cause a strong wind aren't exactly rare.

I would argue even explosions could work, depending.

mcsillas

2017-03-19, 02:38 PM

Since advantage (from being unseen) and disadvantage (from being unable to see) cancel out, I'm struggling to find a use for Fog Cloud. What is the purpose of this spell?

Drop Fog Cloud on your group. Have your group positioned on the outer portion of the cloud so that they can see out of the cloud (heavily obscured), causing enemy attackers who are not in the cloud to suffer from the blinded condition when trying to attack/spot your group. I would leave it to DM discretion as to how far back in the cloud you can be and still see out of it. I can see a lot of uses for this especially when it comes to ranged attacks. It's always good to have advantage while the enemy suffers from disadvantage.

mcsillas

2017-03-19, 02:46 PM

Guess I've gotta go back and figure out how Hiding even works then.

Great hiding guide:

olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/

Strill

2017-03-20, 01:16 AM

Great hiding guide:

olddungeonmaster.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/

That doesn't account for Sitri's argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All). Your link says that in order to hide in combat, you must use the Hide action, and does not provide any alternative. Sitri argues that this cannot be correct, because it means that an Invisible creature who has not taken the hide action could have its location pinpointed by by the enemy. Pinpointing an invisible creature is exactly what the blindsense feature does, and since most creatures do not have blindsense, we conclude that they cannot pinpoint invisible creatures, and therefore that it is possible to hide, without taking the hide action.

There's more holes in that hiding guide as well. What happens if I'm a Shadow Monk, and I use Shadowstep to teleport to the ceiling. Do enemies know where I've gone because they can automatically see everything around them that's not hidden? Or alternatively, am I hidden anyway (unseen and unheard), even though I didn't use the Hide action?

Tanarii

2017-03-20, 08:00 AM

Drop Fog Cloud on your group. Have your group positioned on the outer portion of the cloud so that they can see out of the cloud (heavily obscured), causing enemy attackers who are not in the cloud to suffer from the blinded condition when trying to attack/spot your group. I would leave it to DM discretion as to how far back in the cloud you can be and still see out of it. I can see a lot of uses for this especially when it comes to ranged attacks. It's always good to have advantage while the enemy suffers from disadvantage.
Unless you're standing in the edge of the cloud and the DM is making a special ruling for you, or I'm totally forgetting how obscuring working in 5e (possible because it's an effing mess as usual, especially after errata), then this shouldn't be possible.

mcsillas

2017-03-20, 08:49 AM

Unless you're standing in the edge of the cloud and the DM is making a special ruling for you, or I'm totally forgetting how obscuring working in 5e (possible because it's an effing mess as usual, especially after errata), then this shouldn't be possible.

The Errata clarified that a heavily obscured area does not blind those in it; however, it does cause those trying to see something located in a heavily obscured area to suffer from the blinded condition. I think some common sense comes into play as how far back in it you should be allow to be and still see out. For example, darkness would work slightly differently than heavy foliage, depending on how the DM decides to rule.

mcsillas

2017-03-20, 08:57 AM

Your link says that in order to hide in combat, you must use the Hide action, and does not provide any alternative. Sitri argues that this cannot be correct, because it means that an Invisible creature who has not taken the hide action could have its location pinpointed by by the enemy. Pinpointing an invisible creature is exactly what the blindsense feature does, and since most creatures do not have blindsense, we conclude that they cannot pinpoint invisible creatures, and therefore that it is possible to hide, without taking the hide action.

There's more holes in that hiding guide as well. What happens if I'm a Shadow Monk, and I use Shadowstep to teleport to the ceiling. Do enemies know where I've gone because they can automatically see everything around them that's not hidden? Or alternatively, am I hidden anyway (unseen and unheard), even though I didn't use the Hide action?[/QUOTE]

Hiding is somewhat ambiguous in 5e, but I do agree that hiding requires using an action (rogues can hide with a bonus action). Hiding means unseen and unheard. An invisible creature can be pinpointed by rolling a hearing based perception check, either an active check or a passive check, depending on whether you choose to use an action to search for the invisible menace. If successful you would be able to pinpoint an invisible creature's location; however, you still can't see them, obviously. Since you still can't see them, you suffer from the blinded condition; however, you don't have to guess their location.

Tanarii

2017-03-20, 09:15 AM

The Errata clarified that a heavily obscured area does not blind those in it; however, it does cause those trying to see something located in a heavily obscured area to suffer from the blinded condition. I think some common sense comes into play as how far back in it you should be allow to be and still see out. For example, darkness would work slightly differently than heavy foliage, depending on how the DM decides to rule.
Oh yeah I forgot the errata completely breaks obccuring for anything other than darkness, if you choose to interpret it as applying to people inside the heavily obscured area. If you use it that way, then Fog Cloud is invisible to anyone inside it as long as they look at anyone outside it.

Strill

2017-03-20, 09:21 AM

An invisible creature can be pinpointed by rolling a hearing based perception check, either an active check or a passive check, depending on whether you choose to use an action to search for the invisible menace. If successful you would be able to pinpoint an invisible creature's location; however, you still can't see them, obviously. Since you still can't see them, you suffer from the blinded condition; however, you don't have to guess their location.

But see that's exactly what would happen, even if they had used the Hide action. That means they're already hidden, without having taken the Hide action.

Tanarii

2017-03-20, 09:26 AM

But see that's exactly what would happen, even if they had used the Hide action. That means they're already hidden, without having taken the Hide action.
What would happen if they're hidden is it's an opposed roll vs their stealth check. Nothing says the DM can't follow the normal rules and set a DC to determine where something is.

I'vs done that once or twice as DC 10. I wouldn't go higher than that, on the assumption that generally a creature trying to hide should be *better* than what effectively becomes a floor DC for hiding. Edit: nor do I see it as something that should be done regularly.

mcsillas

2017-03-20, 09:48 AM

But see that's exactly what would happen, even if they had used the Hide action. That means they're already hidden, without having taken the Hide action.

I would say the difference is that if you're hidden, you can't be pinpointed. If you are invisible and your stealth check does not beat the enemy's perception check, then you are pinpointed. Once pinpointed they don't have to guess which direction to attack you.

JellyPooga

2017-03-20, 03:05 PM

Wind magic or blows powerful enough to cause a strong wind aren't exactly rare.

I would argue even explosions could work, depending.

Not rare, per se, because many spell lists have access to effects that create a strong wind, but hardly common because unless you know you're going up against something/one you know will be using a dispersable spell like Fog Cloud those spells tend to be fairly limited in scope. Likewise, it's only outside or in a drafty house and on a windy day that a natural phenomenon will suffice.

While you can argue an explosion could work, it would a) not be a magical one unless the spell specified it creates a wind and b) have to be pretty large. e.g. A phial or two of alchemists fire isn't going to do the trick and (if it even exists in your setting) you'd need more than a couple of sticks of dynamite to produce sufficient "wind", by my estimation.

There is also an argument that a large enough creature could just take a deep breath and blow, but this would entirely be a GMs call (no creature I can call to mind, except Air Elementals, has a "wind" ability) and it would likely require an Action to perform such a feat, if it's even smart enough to think of doing so. Trading a low-level spell for a big critter to waste its action negating it is likely a good trade!

SharkForce

2017-03-20, 07:10 PM

ironically, any dynamite blast strong enough to clear the fog cloud would probably create a dust cloud big enough to obscure the area anyways :P

i don't think anything would really have the lung volume to actually create a significant amount of wind, but i would say a large enough flying creature could probably create enough wind with their wings.

Strill

2017-03-20, 07:23 PM

I would say the difference is that if you're hidden, you can't be pinpointed. If you are invisible and your stealth check does not beat the enemy's perception check, then you are pinpointed. Once pinpointed they don't have to guess which direction to attack you.

According to the rules, when you use the Hide action, you make a Stealth vs Perception check, and if you lose, you give yourself away. Why wouldn't the enemy be able to pinpoint you?

TrinculoLives

2017-03-22, 07:19 PM

It is also useful for when you have frighten effects. Those prevent approach when they can see the subject of their fear, but this removes that issue.

Hahaha, so the party sees a dragon and half of them cower in fear. The wizard drops a fog cloud over the dragon.

"Come on guys, it's okay now, just head into that fog."

./facepalm

SharkForce

2017-03-22, 07:27 PM

Hahaha, so the party sees a dragon and half of them cower in fear. The wizard drops a fog cloud over the dragon.

"Come on guys, it's okay now, just head into that fog."

./facepalm

even better, there are fear effects which you only get saves on later rounds if you can't see the source. and for some of those effects, you're immune for a day once you've made the save :P

Saggo

2017-03-22, 11:52 PM

That doesn't account for Sitri's argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All). Your link says that in order to hide in combat, you must use the Hide action, and does not provide any alternative. Sitri argues that this cannot be correct, because it means that an Invisible creature who has not taken the hide action could have its location pinpointed by by the enemy. Pinpointing an invisible creature is exactly what the blindsense feature does, and since most creatures do not have blindsense, we conclude that they cannot pinpoint invisible creatures, and therefore that it is possible to hide, without taking the hide action.

An invisible creature, even if you know it's location, still imposes disadvantage on attacks, can't be targeted by a good portion, and can use Hide virtually any time they want.

Senses like blindsense take that all away from them, including the ability to use Hide while in range of the sense. So blindsense does exactly what it's supposed to do, take away their ability to Hide. It works fine without adding auto-hidden to invisible creatures.

Strill

2017-03-23, 02:09 PM

An invisible creature, even if you know it's location, still imposes disadvantage on attacks, can't be targeted by a good portion, and can use Hide virtually any time they want.

Senses like blindsense take that all away from them, including the ability to use Hide while in range of the sense. So blindsense does exactly what it's supposed to do, take away their ability to Hide. It works fine without adding auto-hidden to invisible creatures.

You're missing the point. If an invisible creature's location is known by default, then that's the same as saying that everyone has blindsense. But of course, blindsense is a special ability that not every creature has, so that can't be true.

BLINDSENSE
Starting at 14th level, if you are able to hear, you are aware of the location of any hidden or invisible creature within 10 feet of you.

So we must conclude that an invisible creature's location is not known by default. However, when we look at the definition of "Hidden", it says "both unseen and unheard". By that definition, an Invisible creature IS hidden by default.

Unseen Attackers and Targets: If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

So we have to conclude that it is possible to be hidden, without using either the Silence spell, or the Hide action.

SharkForce

2017-03-23, 02:25 PM

So we have to conclude that it is possible to be hidden, without using either the Silence spell, or the Hide action.

i dunno.

i think it's pretty reasonable to assume that not everyone on the dev team was on the same page with hiding and invisibility, or particularly that they at some point changed the rules on hiding and forgot to update that one ability in one class at a level that doesn't get playtested very often.

Saggo

2017-03-23, 03:18 PM

You're missing the point. If an invisible creature's location is known by default, then that's the same as saying that everyone has blindsense. But of course, blindsense is a special ability that not every creature has, so that can't be true.
I'm not missing the point, so thanks for that. There's a simple question that will clear up confusion. Do you think a level 14 Rogue attacking an invisible creature in melee has disadvantage?

Strill

2017-03-23, 03:51 PM

I'm not missing the point, so thanks for that. There's a simple question that will clear up confusion. Do you think a level 14 Rogue attacking an invisible creature in melee has disadvantage?

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't they? Having disadvantage is dependent on whether you can see the target, not whether they're hidden.

Saggo

2017-03-23, 04:05 PM

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't they? Having disadvantage is dependent on whether you can see the target, not whether they're hidden.

I'm not talking about hidden, don't jump ahead so fast. Unseen is a generic rule, special senses are specific rules, so it's entirely possible to "see" your target without using Mk. I Eyeballs. If you don't think Blindsense is one of them, that's an entirely different conversation that I don't feel like bogging down a Fog Cloud discussion with.

Strill

2017-03-23, 04:13 PM

I'm not talking about hidden, don't jump ahead so fast. Unseen is a generic rule, special senses are specific rules, so it's entirely possible to "see" your target without using Mk. I Eyeballs. If you don't think Blindsense is one of them, that's an entirely different conversation that I don't feel like bogging down a Fog Cloud discussion with.

Blindsense specifically says that you can only pinpoint the location of invisible creatures within 10 feet. It says nothing about seeing them. I posted the full description further up.

If you were talking about Blindsight, then sure, that would negate disadvantage.

And I don't think this discussion is off-topic at all. It applies just as much to Fog Cloud as it does to Invisibility.

Saggo

2017-03-23, 05:27 PM

And I don't think this discussion is off-topic at all. It applies just as much to Fog Cloud as it does to Invisibility.
Fair point.

Blindsense specifically says that you can only pinpoint the location of invisible creatures within 10 feet. It says nothing about seeing them. I posted the full description further up.

If you were talking about Blindsight, then sure, that would negate disadvantage.

Neither does Blindsight, they're both weakly defined.

Strill

2017-03-23, 05:57 PM

Neither does Blindsight, they're both weakly defined.

Blindsight at least says you can perceive them without relying on sight, which is more than Blindsense.

Saggo

2017-03-23, 06:58 PM

Blindsight at least says you can perceive them without relying on sight, which is more than Blindsense.

You can flip it and say that blindsight doesn't say you're aware of a creatures location but blindsense does. Like I said, they're weakly defined, neither using keywords or terminology.

The argument, that the location of an invisible creature must be obfuscated because to know the location with enough confidence to attack at disadvantage without a guess or perception check is the same as having blindsense of an undefined range, only works if blindsense unequivocally does not remove unseen disadvantage.

Unfortunately, it seems like this was never addressed in Sage Advice. Honestly, I would have never thought to still give disadvantage.

Strill

2017-03-23, 07:03 PM

Unfortunately, it seems like this was never addressed in Sage Advice. Honestly, I would have never thought to still give disadvantage.

If it negated disadvantage, it would just be Blindsight, and would say "You gain Blindsight, to a range of 10 feet".

Saggo

2017-03-23, 07:27 PM

If it negated disadvantage, it would just be Blindsight, and would say "You gain Blindsight, to a range of 10 feet".

Assuming the book is well written and they don't make silly editing mistakes like leave a feature in the Grapple feat that refers to a rule that no longer exists.

More seriously, regardless of disadvantage or not, blindsense is not complete blindsight. Blindsight works on the entire contents of the environment, blindsense only works on creatures.

Desamir

2017-03-23, 07:34 PM

The argument, that the location of an invisible creature must be obfuscated because to know the location with enough confidence to attack at disadvantage without a guess or perception check is the same as having blindsense of an undefined range, only works if blindsense unequivocally does not remove unseen disadvantage.

Unfortunately, it seems like this was never addressed in Sage Advice. Honestly, I would have never thought to still give disadvantage.

Feral Senses (Ranger 18) is worded very similarly to Blindsense:

You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn't hidden from you and you aren't blinded or deafened.

We know that this paragraph unequivocally does not remove unseen disadvantage, because the paragraph right before it does:

When you attack a creature you can't see, your inability to see it doesn't impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.