Summon Monster Spell line lackluster?

[Zancloufer]

So this came up in our last gaming session. One of the players is a Sorcerer with a focus on summoning stuff. However quite a few things seem off about it:

-Full Round casting. Ouch, long spell casting here.
-Non-existent Duration. 1 round/level isn't very long.
-Most monster just suck. 1-2 HD and literally do a d4+1 damage or something like that

So I think I might be missing something here. Is there just a short list of like 2-3 monster worth summoning or is the spell line legit under-powered and in need of a buff? Or does it only get good at much higher levels?

[Bronk]

Summon Monster spells are like their own minigame. There are lists out there that parse out all the various powers and utilities they offer. I'm sure someone can jump in with some.

There's also the 'summon ice beast' spell set for monsters that are a bit tougher...

[Bucky]

Summon Monster is gimped at levels 1 and 2. After that, they'll last for most of a combat.

Some tricks for getting more out of your summons:
* You can put them wherever you want. You can drop a summon in flanking position or in the face of a non-melee enemy.

I think you can also drop a Tiny summon (e.g. a Viper) into an enemy's square.
* The summon attacks right away when the spell finishes, AND you get to act immediately since the spell finishes at the start of your turn. This makes it good for ambushes.
* Many of the summons have in-combat utility as well. For example, Fire Beetles can deal with poor lighting and Dogs can track down hidden creatures by scent.
* Summons are inherently disposable. If you can get the enemies to attack your summons, those attacks aren't aimed at you. For low level summons, this can be just as valuable as their damage.

[Gullintanni]

Summoning. How Tier 1 classes find (And often disarm) traps.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are ways around the full-round casting time. For someone who focuses on summons they're obviously invaluable.
The duration sucks at low levels, but it will become irrelevant later on. Fights generally don't last longer than a few rounds, which is all summoning is intended for.
More long-term options generally cost you more than just a spell slot.

Summon Monster generally loses out to Summon Natures Ally in terms of bruisers (though summoned monsters do fine too in all but the most optimized games).
If you're just looking for meatshields druids are generally the better option. Druids also get access to Ashbound - the doubled duration makes summoning far more viable at low levels.
Either will need feat investment to really take off though (Augment Summoning and the like) because summons aren't designed to be equal to CR-appropriate enemies, for obvious reasons.

Summon Monster shines with SLAs on the other hand, starting at Summon Monster 3 or 4 and only getting better from there.
I'd suggest taking a look at The Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) - it's a long list.


Summon Monster is gimped at levels 1 and 2. After that, they'll last for most of a combat.
Also this. Not just duration, fiendish/celestial animals really don't work to SM's strengths. Once you get to outsiders (SM3-4, as i said) it'll get vastly better.

[Naez]

Never underestimate the ability to summon wave after wave of disposable minions.

The Malconvoker class does a lot to power up the spell line though, essentially twinning any evil summon and giving a few nice bonuses with a bluff check.

[Thurbane]

I have a home-brew rule: if you are a spontaneous caster, and have Heighten Spell plus any Summon Monster spell in your spells known, you can swap out any spell slot for an equivalent level SM (similar to a Druid with SNA).

It saves on spells known slots: all you need is Summon Monster I and a feat, and you essentially get 8 bonus spells known.

[jmax]

Summon Monster shines with SLAs on the other hand, starting at Summon Monster 3 or 4 and only getting better from there.
I'd suggest taking a look at The Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) - it's a long list..

Of particular import, Summon Monster adds a tremendous number of spells to a sorcerer's repertoire. Admittedly, they'll often be at low caster level and have poor save DCs, but it does add a lot of versatility to a class that typically has to choose spells very carefully.


I made this handy-dandy reference for lookup up Summon Monster SLAs and spells by the SLA/spell name rather than by SM level and creature name. It's built from the Summoner's Desk Reference tables, but inverted with a small script. I could generate for specific max SM levels if anyone was interested.

Summon Monster SLA Tables (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8gwbdAndZ4ZMWlLZ0Vpbkg2TWs/view)

Caveat: This isn't broken out by book, and it's possible there may be monsters on it that my DM added custom for his campaign (such as everything listed as Summon Monster X). If anyone is interested, I could probably tag it with the originating book. I also haven't included casting times, so it's possible some of them may take too long to cast to get them from a summoned monster.


EDIT:


I have a home-brew rule: if you are a spontaneous caster, and have Heighten Spell plus any Summon monster spell in your spells known, you can swap out any spell for an equivalent level SM, similar to a Druid with SNA.

It saves on spells known slots: all you need is Summon Monster I and a feats, and you essentially get 8 bonus spells known.

That's an awesome house rule. I love it!

[Zancloufer]

So essentially Summon Monster X only really gets good at level 5+ (both in duration and the available summons)?

The house rule to let heighten spell make lower level Summon X spells count as higher ones to seems nice. Not sure it will help as much as I do use a buffed Sorcerer/Favoured Soul Spell progression (Learn new spell levels at the same level as Wizard/Cleric know 2-6 spells of any given level) so not sure if burning a feat will help as much as they are a much more limited resource in my games (even with PF-esq feat progression).

Would there be any interesting monsters or just general house rules to buff up the first few level's spell selection though? Maybe make it simpler: Any CR X monster (CR = Spell level) of the outsider, elemental or magical beat type can be summoned?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So essentially Summon Monster X only really gets good at level 5+ (both in duration and the available summons)?
Roughly, yes. Summon Nature's Ally tends to be better at low levels, when you're mostly just getting brawlers, while Summon Monster really gets going once SLAs start appearing.

Though the spiders are good options for control.

[Starbuck_II]

1st level:
Small Spider: Spiders have web (free entangle/net, 8/day, up to 1 sizes larger), thus you can net a medium dude.
But unless fighting over your CR, few are larger than med, plus poison
Raven: flying help, weak damaqe though
Small Scorpion (improved grab +constrict), bad grapple, but if win, awesome, plus poison

2nd:
Med Spider (net large creatures), plus poison
Lemure devil: Good DR, 2 attks,
Wolf: bite +trip
large centipede: no improved grab, but amazing for level grapple check, plus poison
med Scorpion: Better scorpion (improved grab +constrict), better grapple, if win, awesome, plus poison
Bombardier beetle has area attack (weak damage, but good vs swarms)
Squid: amazing in watery areas.

[Venger]

I have a home-brew rule: if you are a spontaneous caster, and have Heighten Spell plus any Summon Monster spell in your spells known, you can swap out any spell slot for an equivalent level SM (similar to a Druid with SNA).

It saves on spells known slots: all you need is Summon Monster I and a feat, and you essentially get 8 bonus spells known.
That's a great house rule. I'll adopt that next time someone rolls a spontaneous caster.


Of particular import, Summon Monster adds a tremendous number of spells to a sorcerer's repertoire. Admittedly, they'll often be at low caster level and have poor save DCs, but it does add a lot of versatility to a class that typically has to choose spells very carefully.


I made this handy-dandy reference for lookup up Summon Monster SLAs and spells by the SLA/spell name rather than by SM level and creature name. It's built from the Summoner's Desk Reference tables, but inverted with a small script. I could generate for specific max SM levels if anyone was interested.

Summon Monster SLA Tables (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8gwbdAndZ4ZMWlLZ0Vpbkg2TWs/view)

Caveat: This isn't broken out by book, and it's possible there may be monsters on it that my DM added custom for his campaign (such as everything listed as Summon Monster X). If anyone is interested, I could probably tag it with the originating book. I also haven't included casting times, so it's possible some of them may take too long to cast to get them from a summoned monster.

Wow, that's a very helpful table. Thanks for sharing it.

As mentioned, if you use summons as brutes, you're gonna have a bad time. You pick summons at mid-high levels for their slas and utility powers more than raw numbers, hd, or damage. the conjure ice beast line from frostburn does improve survivability if you're looking for a damage sponge to shunt harm onto or to siphon for vampiric touch or similar.


Summon Monster is gimped at levels 1 and 2. After that, they'll last for most of a combat.

Some tricks for getting more out of your summons:
* You can put them wherever you want. You can drop a summon in flanking position or in the face of a non-melee enemy.

I think you can also drop a Tiny summon (e.g. a Viper) into an enemy's square.
* The summon attacks right away when the spell finishes, AND you get to act immediately since the spell finishes at the start of your turn. This makes it good for ambushes.
* Many of the summons have in-combat utility as well. For example, Fire Beetles can deal with poor lighting and Dogs can track down hidden creatures by scent.
* Summons are inherently disposable. If you can get the enemies to attack your summons, those attacks aren't aimed at you. For low level summons, this can be just as valuable as their damage.
You cannot summon monsters into people's squares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) you also can't summon monsters into thin air and drop them on people, they've gotta be on the ground.

[Thurbane]

That's an awesome house rule. I love it!

That's a great house rule. I'll adopt that next time someone rolls a spontaneous caster.

Thanks. I've considered expanding the rule to cover things like upgrading Dispel Magic to Greater Dispel Magic etc.


You cannot summon monsters into people's squares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) you also can't summon monsters into thin air and drop them on people, they've gotta be on the ground.

I was aware of this in a general sense, but I just realized: does this mean if you summon a flying monster, it needs to start off on the ground?

[Inevitability]

Summoning. How Tier 1 classes find (And often disarm) traps.

This is said way too much.

For finding traps, summons are nearly useless because they last for rounds/level. Even if you walk only half an hour per day, a 10th-level caster is going to have to sacrifice most of his spell slots on keeping a summon in front of him all the time, or burn through hundreds of GP on wands per day. Besides: more than a few traps are keyed to weight, alignment, or some other factor summoning can't replace.

For disarming: I assume you mean 'setting it off in a controlled fashion', as I don't know of any summons that have Trapfinding. Here, it limits their use to traps that only trigger once. And if the trap's radius is sufficient, party members may still face consequences.

I admit, summons are useful if you want to check whether that Obvious Loot-Filled Chest is trapped, but they're no match for actual trapfinding (which may or may not originate from a properly built cleric).

[Venger]

Thanks. I've considered expanding the rule to cover things like upgrading Dispel Magic to Greater Dispel Magic etc.

I was aware of this in a general sense, but I just realized: does this mean if you summon a flying monster, it needs to start off on the ground?

That's a good idea. No one wants to spend 2 knowns on that.

Yes, that is correct. Most people forget/ignore this rule, but there it is.

[Efrate]

Summon Monster I nets you a celestial monkey, who can manipulate objects. A wand of this is 750 gp, and will set off most traps you ever find, for a very minor cost. That is all you need.

There is also the summon elemental reserve feat that can do a lot of this, in complete mage, as well, giving you an infinite respawning minion for a feat and having a summon spell uncast. Useless except for aid another and flanking generally for combat, but for utility its great. Earth elementals are very heavy, can set off most weight based triggers, and if it dies, get another. You need to be able to cast 4th level spells and have an uncast at least 4th level summon monster spell, but its a perfectly fine trapfinder, and you can just get another one when it pops.

Add a wand of knock for 4500 GP and you can more or less invalidate that aspect of the rogue.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook&highlight=conjuration%20handbook

5th post has all the links to appropriate threads you need
there is no problem that cant be overcome with the proper summons
as with anything else, yea, low levels suck
the best summonors are Conjuration specialist with the rapid summoning ACF from Unearthed Arcana and then branch out from there
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning

[weckar]

Summon Ice Beast is hella powerful because it is a creation spell rather than a summoning spell. That means that fun tricks like Invisible Spell apply to it as you'd expect.

[Gullintanni]

This is said way too much.

For finding traps, summons are nearly useless because they last for rounds/level. Even if you walk only half an hour per day, a 10th-level caster is going to have to sacrifice most of his spell slots on keeping a summon in front of him all the time, or burn through hundreds of GP on wands per day. Besides: more than a few traps are keyed to weight, alignment, or some other factor summoning can't replace.

For disarming: I assume you mean 'setting it off in a controlled fashion', as I don't know of any summons that have Trapfinding. Here, it limits their use to traps that only trigger once. And if the trap's radius is sufficient, party members may still face consequences.

I admit, summons are useful if you want to check whether that Obvious Loot-Filled Chest is trapped, but they're no match for actual trapfinding (which may or may not originate from a properly built cleric).

I'm not disagreeing with you, but it's a reasonable use of 1st level spell slots during mid levels.

Opening doors and treasure chests can prove lethal, and Summoned creatures definitely mitigate that risk. That said, Command Undead//Animate Dead work better in this regard.

[Bucky]

You cannot summon monsters into people's squares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) you also can't summon monsters into thin air and drop them on people, they've gotta be on the ground.

You need to summon them in "an open location on a surface capable of supporting it". For Tiny creatures that could be supported by someone's head, that presumably means you can summon them on an enemy's head.

It looks like this only applies to the birds (owls, ravens and hawks) on the default summon monster I list.

[nyjastul69]

That's a great house rule. I'll adopt that next time someone rolls a spontaneous caster.


Wow, that's a very helpful table. Thanks for sharing it.

As mentioned, if you use summons as brutes, you're gonna have a bad time. You pick summons at mid-high levels for their slas and utility powers more than raw numbers, hd, or damage. the conjure ice beast line from frostburn does improve survivability if you're looking for a damage sponge to shunt harm onto or to siphon for vampiric touch or similar.


You cannot summon monsters into people's squares (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration) you also can't summon monsters into thin air and drop them on people, they've gotta be on the ground.

I don't see the prohibition on summoning a creature into an occupied square.

[Venger]

You need to summon them in "an open location on a surface capable of supporting it". For Tiny creatures that could be supported by someone's head, that presumably means you can summon them on an enemy's head.

It looks like this only applies to the birds (owls, ravens and hawks) on the default summon monster I list.


I don't see the prohibition on summoning a creature into an occupied square.



A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

in 3.5, creatures are treated as blocks who occupy their whole square. out of game, sure, there's plenty of room in a 5 foot cube a human's standing in to drop a snake on him, but in terms of actual rules, that square is occupied, so you have to have your summon appear somewhere else.

as a result, that'd be an adjacent, rules-legal square. the one above your target is in the air, so it's not a valid target for where your summon appears.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As mentioned, summon monster sucks at extremely low levels, due to the duration, if nothing else. That's why I use the mount spell at or around level 1. Far more potent to get an hour-long summoned critter than a mere 6 seconds.

At higher levels, you use low level summon spells for utility, such as setting off traps and such. The higher level spells are more to get you special abilities. Summon a unicorn and heal the party, as an oft-quoted example. And they really start to shine when you put some resources toward making them more viable, such as the various ways to lower casting times (such as the chronocharm of the uncaring archmage for a piddly 500 gp).

[Starbuck_II]

in 3.5, creatures are treated as blocks who occupy their whole square. out of game, sure, there's plenty of room in a 5 foot cube a human's standing in to drop a snake on him, but in terms of actual rules, that square is occupied, so you have to have your summon appear somewhere else.

as a result, that'd be an adjacent, rules-legal square. the one above your target is in the air, so it's not a valid target for where your summon appears.

But Complete Psionics has a Summoning spell (well power) that specifically summons a monster on a foes square (to attack them): Larval Flayers. They are tiny so can fit and apply attached if augment.
It is an augment meaning 4th level Psion +overchannel or Wilder 3 (using they wild surge ability), but still allowed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But Complete Psionics has a Summoning spell (well power) that specifically summons a monster on a foes square (to attack them): Larval Flayers. They are tiny so can fit and apply attached if augment.

It is an augment meaning 4th level Psion +overchannel or Wilder 3 (using they wild surge ability), but still allowed.General vs specific.

[nyjastul69]

in 3.5, creatures are treated as blocks who occupy their whole square. out of game, sure, there's plenty of room in a 5 foot cube a human's standing in to drop a snake on him, but in terms of actual rules, that square is occupied, so you have to have your summon appear somewhere else.

as a result, that'd be an adjacent, rules-legal square. the one above your target is in the air, so it's not a valid target for where your summon appears.

Reading fail on my part. I read right through open location.

[Venger]

But Complete Psionics has a Summoning spell (well power) that specifically summons a monster on a foes square (to attack them): Larval Flayers. They are tiny so can fit and apply attached if augment.
It is an augment meaning 4th level Psion +overchannel or Wilder 3 (using they wild surge ability), but still allowed.
that's specific trumping general. they're able to do that via their attach attack and as a function of the power, not solely by virtue of size.

that's a great power. I'd never looked at it before.


Reading fail on my part. I read right through open location.

it happens. those sections are hidden away in weird places.

[Allanimal]

Summon Monster I nets you a celestial monkey, who can manipulate objects. A wand of this is 750 gp, and will set off most traps you ever find, for a very minor cost. That is all you need.


How do you get the celestial monkey to set off the trap?


If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Emphasis mine. The spell does not give you the ability to communicate, as far as I can tell celestial monkeys don't have a language, so you have to burn another spell or resource to tell it to walk down that hallway or open that door/chest.

And since the celestial template makes it a magical beast, speak with animals won't work. Tongues doesn't work because
Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak.

So how do you get the celestial monkey to manipulate the specific objects you want manipulated in the way you want them manipulated?

[Starbuck_II]

How do you get the celestial monkey to set off the trap?



Emphasis mine. The spell does not give you the ability to communicate, as far as I can tell celestial monkeys don't have a language, so you have to burn another spell or resource to tell it to walk down that hallway or open that door/chest.

And since the celestial template makes it a magical beast, speak with animals won't work. Tongues doesn't work because

So how do you get the celestial monkey to manipulate the specific objects you want manipulated in the way you want them manipulated?

Because in 3.5, it is intelligent (at least 3) and gains a language due to Celestial/Fiendish template.

This means either Celestial or Infernal, but than again common is so common it makes sense too.

So the above quote assumes common.
But a smart summoner chooses Celestial/Infernal just in case.

[AnachroNinja]

An argument could be made that if the correct reading is that a square is fully taken up by it's occupier, then that person is actually occupying a 3D cube which they completely fill, so summoning a tiny animal in the cube above them would be considered an unoccupied space that can support them since the person below fills their 5' cube entirely in a way that's indistinguishable by the rules from the way a 5' cube of wood would fill the space.

On one hand it sounds silly, but it also sounds silly to say a 8 oz snake can't be summoned on top of a person's head because BADWRONG. I dunno.

[Coretron03]

Because in 3.5, it is intelligent (at least 3) and gains a language due to Celestial/Fiendish template.

This means either Celestial or Infernal, but than again common is so common it makes sense too.

So the above quote assumes common.
But a smart summoner chooses Celestial/Infernal just in case.

I think there's a general rule somewhere that creature that gain a language default to learning common if theirs no entry about it in their statblock which should apply in this situation. Don't know where the rule is though.

[Efrate]

They have int 3 and understand common. All celestial/fiendish creatures do, part of the templates is increasing int to at least 3. Its why you can give complex instructions to them like pull that lever, open that door, walk down that hallways back and forth stepping all over, etc.

[Allanimal]

Because in 3.5, it is intelligent (at least 3) and gains a language due to Celestial/Fiendish template.

This means either Celestial or Infernal, but than again common is so common it makes sense too.

So the above quote assumes common.
But a smart summoner chooses Celestial/Infernal just in case.

Ok, several people have said it, so I believe it is there, but I just am not finding it in the SRD.
I understand that the celestial template bumps the Int to 3, but I am not finding where Int 3+ automatically means a language is known. Can someone point me in the right direction?

[Venger]

An argument could be made that if the correct reading is that a square is fully taken up by it's occupier, then that person is actually occupying a 3D cube which they completely fill, so summoning a tiny animal in the cube above them would be considered an unoccupied space that can support them since the person below fills their 5' cube entirely in a way that's indistinguishable by the rules from the way a 5' cube of wood would fill the space.

On one hand it sounds silly, but it also sounds silly to say a 8 oz snake can't be summoned on top of a person's head because BADWRONG. I dunno.


in 3.5, creatures are treated as blocks who occupy their whole square. out of game, sure, there's plenty of room in a 5 foot cube a human's standing in to drop a snake on him, but in terms of actual rules, that square is occupied, so you have to have your summon appear somewhere else.

as a result, that'd be an adjacent, rules-legal square. the one above your target is in the air, so it's not a valid target for where your summon appears.

I mean, it's not an argument, that's just how the rules work. if you're small or larger, you take up the entirety of all the squares that you occupy. this is the reason we have special rules for squeezing, grappling, tumbling, etc.


Ok, several people have said it, so I believe it is there, but I just am not finding it in the SRD.
I understand that the celestial template bumps the Int to 3, but I am not finding where Int 3+ automatically means a language is known. Can someone point me in the right direction?



Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence
bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

[Allanimal]

Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence
bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).





Cool, thanks. I've been doing it wrong for a long time...

[Venger]

Cool, thanks. I've been doing it wrong for a long time...

this is part of the reason the animals you can summon are fiendish/celestial. it happens. sometimes important rules are hidden in weird places.

[Segev]

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

So, what we're prohibited from doing is:
Conjuring a creature inside another creature or object
So no putting snakes in people's stomachs
No summoning birds inside cages, oddly enough
Conjuring a creature without some surface which can support it
No dropping bears on people's heads
Not even by summoning it onto a flimsy piece of paper or awning you know will break
Because it does specify "surface," we're limited from summoning flying creatures in the air
Conjuring a creature in a non-open location
This could be read as "in a set of 5-ft. squares that includes any other creature's space,"
or it could be read as "in a space large enough to hold it."

Barring the penultimate sub-bullet's reading, nothing here says you cannot summon a Tiny creature inside a Medium or Small creature's space. Nor, as it turns out, a Large creature such that a Medium or smaller creature is also occupying its space.

Remember, smaller creatures can enter larger creatures' spaces. It usually provokes an AoO, but so too does stepping up next to Large and larger creatures, but you can summon right next to them for flanking purposes and the like.

I would suggest that it is perfectly fine to summon a Tiny snake such that it's draped over the shoulders of a Medium creature, especially if you're having it's action-immediately-upon-appearing be "grapple that guy."

[Gullintanni]

So, what we're prohibited from doing is:
Conjuring a creature inside another creature or object
So no putting snakes in people's stomachs
No summoning birds inside cages, oddly enough
Conjuring a creature without some surface which can support it
No dropping bears on people's heads
Not even by summoning it onto a flimsy piece of paper or awning you know will break
Because it does specify "surface," we're limited from summoning flying creatures in the air
Conjuring a creature in a non-open location
This could be read as "in a set of 5-ft. squares that includes any other creature's space,"
or it could be read as "in a space large enough to hold it."

Barring the penultimate sub-bullet's reading, nothing here says you cannot summon a Tiny creature inside a Medium or Small creature's space. Nor, as it turns out, a Large creature such that a Medium or smaller creature is also occupying its space.

Remember, smaller creatures can enter larger creatures' spaces. It usually provokes an AoO, but so too does stepping up next to Large and larger creatures, but you can summon right next to them for flanking purposes and the like.

I would suggest that it is perfectly fine to summon a Tiny snake such that it's draped over the shoulders of a Medium creature, especially if you're having it's action-immediately-upon-appearing be "grapple that guy."

I think the debate hinges on the definition of "Open" in terms of an open space.

The interpretation that is best supported by RAW (IMHO) is that any space occupied by a creature is not an "Open" space, ergo, you can not conjure into that space, even if the creature could, of its own volition, occupy that space with the given creature.

From a different perspective, imagine the creature you are summoning is an Earth Elemental. Can you conjure it inside of a rock wall? Per its own special abilities, it can indeed occupy that space, nevertheless, I have a hard time buying into the notion that a space occupied by wall constitutes an open space. Similarly, per existing RAW, a space occupied by a creature is never an open space. Summon Monster requires an open space, as defined by the game rules, ergo, regardless of whether or not a creature can legally occupy a space, the space must be open, in order to be considered a valid location for a Summoned creature to appear.

...that's my interpretation of the rules thus far anyway. I would probably let my players summon tiny snakes on top of colossal red dragons, but I openly acknowledge that (I believe) I'd be houseruling at that point.

[Segev]

I think the debate hinges on the definition of "Open" in terms of an open space.I agree; that is what the debate hinges on.


The interpretation that is best supported by RAW (IMHO) is that any space occupied by a creature is not an "Open" space, ergo, you can not conjure into that space, even if the creature could, of its own volition, occupy that space with the given creature.I'm not sure you can make a statement that it's "best" supported by RAW. It either is supported or it isn't. Is there a game-use for "open space" that defines it that way?


From a different perspective, imagine the creature you are summoning is an Earth Elemental. Can you conjure it inside of a rock wall? Per its own special abilities, it can indeed occupy that space, nevertheless, I have a hard time buying into the notion that a space occupied by wall constitutes an open space. Similarly, per existing RAW, a space occupied by a creature is never an open space. Summon Monster requires an open space, as defined by the game rules, ergo, regardless of whether or not a creature can legally occupy a space, the space must be open, in order to be considered a valid location for a Summoned creature to appear.This kind-of dodges the point entirely, but you couldn't do that because you can't summon something inside of an object. "Inside the wall" is inside an object - the wall.

I say it "kind-of" dodges because the fact that this contingency is covered removes it as a valid point of concern wrt the spell, and could arguably even be used as counter-evidence that the inclusion of "can't do it inside an object" undermines the notion that "open" space corresponds to "squares must not be occupied by any creature."


...that's my interpretation of the rules thus far anyway. I would probably let my players summon tiny snakes on top of colossal red dragons, but I openly acknowledge that (I believe) I'd be houseruling at that point.That's fair.

[Gullintanni]

I'm not sure you can make a statement that it's "best" supported by RAW. It either is supported or it isn't. Is there a game-use for "open space" that defines it that way?


The best you really get is that as long as a square is occupied then it isn't open. That is, in my opinion, the most logical semantic inference, but it IS an inference rather than RAW. Unfortunately, it's also the best you get.

Under "Moving through a square", you get the following:



Designated Exceptions
Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities.


So here, we have to infer that some creatures completely fill their squares and some do not, but I can't think of a single monster entry where this characteristic is defined. In short: The rules are no help here. Talk to your DM. My guidance is that certain definitions of occupied are antithetical to certain definitions of open, and as the reading with the most decisive outcome, that antithesis is where I believe the road to RAW lies. My strategy for resolving rules ambiguities has always been to err towards using linguistic definitions that produce the most well defined outcome. And if that outcome is dysfunctional and stupid, I then Rule Zero it away :smallwink:

YMMV.

[Segev]

I actually think that the "totally fills its square" clause shows up in Gelatinous Cubes, at least. For whatever that's worth.

But in general, yeah, arguing over whether it's legal by the RAW is less important that asking your DM if he'll let you do it.

[Zancloufer]

On the note of "Solid Surface": Shouldn't a creature with the Hover ability/feat or Perfect flight manoeuvrability be summonable in mid air above someone? I mean the air is a "surface that can support them" in that they can stay in place mid air no problem?

Also while I can see some arguments for allowing <Tiny creatures to be summoned on top of >Medium ones it opens a whole can of worms with where you can summons stuff.

Finally: Cloudy Conjuration and Summon Elemental (the Reserve Feat) seem like solid feat choices, but are there any other good summoning based feats that are worth taking for an arcane caster?

[Inevitability]

On the note of "Solid Surface": Shouldn't a creature with the Hover ability/feat or Perfect flight manoeuvrability be summonable in mid air above someone? I mean the air is a "surface that can support them" in that they can stay in place mid air no problem?

The problem is that accepting empty air as a 'surface' goes against most people's definition of it.

[Zancloufer]

The problem is that accepting empty air as a 'surface' goes against most people's definition of it.

Except that we are dealing with something that can literally hover mid air? Also DC 120 balance check lets you balance on air. You can walk on air with a high enough balance skill.

From a physics perspective air can be a surface you just generally have too much relative density to actually be supported by it. Also Epic Balance rules imply that it is a surface you can move across it is just REALLY HARD.

[Segev]

Except that we are dealing with something that can literally hover mid air? Also DC 120 balance check lets you balance on air. You can walk on air with a high enough balance skill.

From a physics perspective air can be a surface you just generally have too much relative density to actually be supported by it. Also Epic Balance rules imply that it is a surface you can move across it is just REALLY HARD.

Technically, it's clouds that you can balance on with epic balance. Not "merely" air. Reasonably extended, this would let you walk up a column of smoke, though.

[Allanimal]

"It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

What about summoning aquatic creatures? Say a crocodile. Can you summon it on the top a lake? I don't think water can suppprt its weight without it trying. (Paddling, inflating lungs, whatever- I'm no biologist!) What about underwater? Technically there is no "surface" til you hit the bottom. So do you have to summon it on the shore or the bottom of the lake?

[Segev]

"It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

What about summoning aquatic creatures? Say a crocodile. Can you summon it on the top a lake? I don't think water can suppprt its weight without it trying. (Paddling, inflating lungs, whatever- I'm no biologist!)Doesn't say that the surface has to support them without them working at it. Only that it be capable of supporting them.


What about underwater? Technically there is no "surface" til you hit the bottom. So do you have to summon it on the shore or the bottom of the lake?
Per the RAW, yes, you can only summon them on the surface or on the floor. Unless you interpret 'surface' very liberally, and in a way that allows flying critters to be summoned mid-air. Really, I'd rule (or rule 0) it the latter way, just because it makes more sense to me.

[Allanimal]

Doesn't say that the surface has to support them without them working at it. Only that it be capable of supporting them.


Per the RAW, yes, you can only summon them on the surface or on the floor. Unless you interpret 'surface' very liberally, and in a way that allows flying critters to be summoned mid-air. Really, I'd rule (or rule 0) it the latter way, just because it makes more sense to me.

Yes, at the table I play at, both as player and DM, we house rule aquatic creatures can be summoned under water, and flying creatures can be summoned in mid air.

Just like that croc can float with a bit of natural effort, so can that eagle (just unfurl those wings and soar!)

It's not blatant abuse like summoning a whale in the air over someone's head, but yes, it stretches the word "surface". :)

I was just wondering if it was an uncommon thing or not.

[jmax]

My RAI interpretation is that the condition was put in to prevent abuse along the lines of summon bigger fish (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0208.html).

So the key is to ignore the word "surface" (although I did look for a fancy topological math definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_(mathematics)) that would allow it regardless, those are all explicitly 2D) and focus on "support".

The result under this interpretation:

Creatures with a ground speed can be supported by ground.
Creatures with a climb speed can be supported by walls.
Creatures with a fly speed can be supported by air (and, depending on the flight mechanism, potentially even vacuum).
And creatures with a swim speed can be supported by water.


Creatures with Earth Glide could theoretically be supported by the interior of rock and dirt, but line of effect becomes tricky. However, it would mean you could summon a huge earth elemental into a stone chamber with 10-foot ceilings - any part that doesn't fit in the room would bleed over into the stone. This is a really helpful interpretation to keep summon nature's ally viable at high levels, since most of the good SNA beat-sticks are too big to fit inside most rooms. SM gets a lot more medium and large critters toward the upper end, and they're actually useful due to plentiful spell-like abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518804-3-5-Summoned-Creature-SLA-Lists).