What's a good XP replacement for magic item crafting?

[frogglesmash]

I want to replace the XP cost of magic item crafting with something other than more gold. The only idea I can think of at the moment is souls, but that makes magic item crafting too evil for my tastes.

[ryu]

I want to replace the XP cost of magic item crafting with something other than more gold. The only idea I can think of at the moment is souls, but that makes magic item crafting too evil for my tastes.

Look up ambrosia. It's a replacement for crafting XP or spellcasting XP you can make by casting distill joy from the book of exalted deeds. There's a similar version but evil with liquid pain.

[frogglesmash]

Are there any ways to get a steady production of Ambrosia going?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Are there any ways to get a steady production of Ambrosia going?

A Purified Nippleclamp of Exquisite Pleasure would give the wearer endless pleasure, on which a Spellclock of Distill Joy will produce endless supply of Ambrosia. Or set the Spellclock up in a brothel. Either way.

[frogglesmash]

A Purified Nippleclamp of Exquisite Pleasure would give the wearer endless pleasure, on which a Spellclock of Distill Joy will produce endless supply of Ambrosia. Or set the Spellclock up in a brothel. Either way.

This is all a lot easier than I was expecting.

[ryu]

A Purified Nippleclamp of Exquisite Pleasure would give the wearer endless pleasure, on which a Spellclock of Distill Joy will produce endless supply of Ambrosia. Or set the Spellclock up in a brothel. Either way.

In other words there's the boring way and the fun way that you can totally use to setup plot hooks. Think about it. The more successful a brothel you can make the more ambrosia you can get. Considering you're likely to have casters competing here.... FUN.

[Coretron03]

In other words there's the boring way and the fun way that you can totally use to setup plot hooks. Think about it. The more successful a brothel you can make the more ambrosia you can get. Considering you're likely to have casters competing here.... FUN.

Depends though, if he tries it it probably won't end in the destruction of the entire layer of hell :smallbiggrin:.

[MesiDoomstalker]

This is all a lot easier than I was expecting.

Honestly I was just paraphrasing a similar thread made a year or two ago that I vaguely remember off the top of my head.

[Dragonexx]

If your willing to use homebrew, there's the Wish Economy (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=354300#354300). If you scroll down, there's a list of magical power sources you can use to craft items.

[ryu]

Depends though, if he tries it it probably won't end in the destruction of the entire layer of hell :smallbiggrin:.

Yeah, well, not every party can be as productive as our usual group of hyper competent tier ones. Similarly not every wizard can effectively pull off the level of insane paranoia and backup plans that I do.

Also it wasn't a layer of hell. It was a layer of the ABYSS controlled by succubi. One is lawful evil the other is chaotic evil. Gotta keep the facts straight.

[Crake]

Not sure why people think encouraging patrons to indulge in hedonistic pleasures would destroy malcanthet's layer of the abyss, instead of reinforce it. If you're such a good brothel, and you're likely not charging much, because you're making ambrosia, which is where 90% of your profits will be coming from anyway, people will be over indulging to the point of neglidgence at your brothel, which is the very description of hedonistic chaotic evil.

[Coretron03]

I was merely referencing something Ryu had said, spoildered for length

Indeed. It goes even deeper into that. One of the best DMs I've ever had took notice of my standard method of farming ambrosia. Namely, brothels with wondrous architecture set to distill joy on command and with as much magical backing as I could throw at it. Guy took this quirky method of resource gathering that I made just as another ongoing joke common to my wizards and on a whim decided to see what would happen if competition was introduced. It started small. It really did. Just the odd encounter with a bit of backstory or with cryptic notes or warnings to set the tone. Over the course of several YEARS of playing this thing that happened on a whim evolved into a magical, interplaner pimp war of such scale that it had to end with the destruction of an entire layer of the abyss. I want you to take a moment to think about the sheer amount of work that had to be put into that whim, and then I want you to weep in respect of one the greatest people I've ever met. I do not offer that level of praise easily.

[ryu]

Not sure why people think encouraging patrons to indulge in hedonistic pleasures would destroy malcanthet's layer of the abyss, instead of reinforce it. If you're such a good brothel, and you're likely not charging much, because you're making ambrosia, which is where 90% of your profits will be coming from anyway, people will be over indulging to the point of neglidgence at your brothel, which is the very description of hedonistic chaotic evil.

So to answer your question, no, the brotheling isn't what destroyed it. It was the magical warfare with intent to end the competition that did that.

[weckar]

So what is the original source for this Ambrosia stuff?

[Coretron03]

So what is the original source for this Ambrosia stuff?

From memory, they are from the book of exalted deeds. Created by the spell distilled joy.

[weckar]

Isn't that 3.0? My mind is crawling with confusion right now... Excuse me as I go catch it.


EDIT: Got it. Now, as I find Distill Joy requires a target of one creature. I recall that a spell clock can't actually autonomously select targets, so you can't just leave it in a brothel and call it a day...

[ryu]

Isn't that 3.0? My mind is crawling with confusion right now... Excuse me as I go catch it.

If I remember properly it was actually very early 3.5. If not though 3.0 content that hasn't been superseded by something more recent still counts as fair game.

[Coretron03]

Common misconception, book of exalted deeds is 3.5 but the book of vile darkness is 3.0.

[ShurikVch]

"Eye of Newt and Toe of Frog: Using Power Components" article in Dragon #317 allow to use various esoteric components instead XP for both crafting and casting - such as Xill scales (all) to make Ring of Protection +1, or Devorer's ribcage to cast Limited Wish

[J-H]

I agree...components. Want Gloves of Ogre Power? Make them out of the pelts of Dire Bears. The Dire Bears live 200 miles away up in the north, and there are barbarian tribes up there that revere them. Plot hook!

Circlet of intelligence? Ok, go get some mind flayer brains.

Belt of Dwarvenkind? Get freely given beard hairs from at least 20 dwarves of 4th level and above.

etc etc

[ryu]

I agree...components. Want Gloves of Ogre Power? Make them out of the pelts of Dire Bears. The Dire Bears live 200 miles away up in the north, and there are barbarian tribes up there that revere them. Plot hook!

Circlet of intelligence? Ok, go get some mind flayer brains.

Belt of Dwarvenkind? Get freely given beard hairs from at least 20 dwarves of 4th level and above.

etc etc

Eh. Way to fiddly for every little craftable. The whole point of crafting, besides more efficient use of WBL, is to avoid having to sidequest for any particular wanted magic item so long as you've resources lying around.

[Bucky]

Artificers can break down existing magic items to gain crafting XP.

[ShurikVch]

Note: the article also mentioned monetary prices for all required components - otherwise getting a component for Ring of Major Spell Storing would be rathe tricky - it's Soul gems of Demilich with at least 25 HD

[ryu]

Note: the article also mentioned monetary prices for all required components - otherwise getting a component for Ring of Major Spell Storing would be rathe tricky - it's Soul gems of Demilich with at least 25 HD

Better, but I'd honestly prefer the ambrosia in most situations for reduction of complexity. Obtain one resource to convert to tools rather than using gold to convert to, presumably, lots and lots of different types to remember by name or at least write down.

[frogglesmash]

I agree...components. Want Gloves of Ogre Power? Make them out of the pelts of Dire Bears. The Dire Bears live 200 miles away up in the north, and there are barbarian tribes up there that revere them. Plot hook!

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use is ogres to make gauntlets of ogre power?

[manyslayer]

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use is ogres to make gauntlets of ogre power?
Are your boots of elvenkind made from real elves? :smallsmile:

[frogglesmash]

Are your boots of elvenkind made from real elves? :smallsmile:

Of course, what else?

[Slipperychicken]

You could play up the obscurity of crafting-reagents by making players do gather information/diplomacy type rolls and spend some time looking for them. Also have your players come up with names for some of the weirder reagents they need.

Or do the terrifying magically-forced bondage kink thing. Just expect endless jokes about what "ambrosia" is and how exactly you're harvesting it.

[ryu]

You could play up the obscurity of crafting-reagents by making players do gather information/diplomacy type rolls and spend some time looking for them. Also have your players come up with names for some of the weirder reagents they need.

Or do the terrifying magically-forced bondage kink thing. Just expect endless jokes about what "ambrosia" is and how exactly you're harvesting it.

Or brothels. You guarantee all participants are voluntary. Still gonna get the jokes though. You could be like me and not only accept that, but outfit the character in a purple robe, white furry hat, fancy cane, and a golden tooth.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The question is "what are you trying to accomplish with the change?" Do you want to make crafting easier? Harder? More flavorful? Less disruptive to a character's progression? More?

[frogglesmash]

The question is "what are you trying to accomplish with the change?" Do you want to make crafting easier? Harder? More flavorful? Less disruptive to a character's progression? More?
More flavorful, and less disruptive to character progress. I also intend to have some low level magic items be mass produced in the campaign world, so having a crafting system based on XP doesn't really mesh with that as far as internal consistency is concerned.

[ryu]

More flavorful, and less disruptive to character progress. I also intend to have some low level magic items be mass produced in the campaign world, so having a crafting system based on XP doesn't really mesh with that as far as internal consistency is concerned.

So make the mass produced stuff ambrosia/liquid pain based. Easy one two three.

[Grod_The_Giant]

More flavorful, and less disruptive to character progress. I also intend to have some low level magic items be mass produced in the campaign world, so having a crafting system based on XP doesn't really mesh with that as far as internal consistency is concerned.
Mkay. How about...

Time: For every thousand gold in the item's base price, the crafter ages one year.
Planar Matter: Magic items must include some amount of material mined from one of the four elemental planes, corresponding to the school of the base spell: Air for Illusion and Enchantment, Fire for Evocation and Transmutation, Earth for Abjuration and Conjuration, and Water for Divination and Necromancy.
Memories: You must pour some amount of significant memories into any item you craft-- one important fact or event for every five caster levels invested in the item. A Wish, Lesser Wish, or Miracle spell can restore the lost memories, but nothing less.
Location: Magic items can only be created in locations of great natural power-- near volcanos, great forests, rich coral reefs, and so on.

[ryu]

Removing memores as a COST? I do that on purpose all the time at high levels to defend against the natural predator of most high level characters: An insane vecna blooded wizard capable of casting ice assassin with a love of information gathering.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Removing memores as a COST? I do that on purpose all the time at high levels to defend against the natural predator of most high level characters: An insane vecna blooded wizard capable of casting ice assassin with a love of information gathering.
Yeah, but your experience of the game is not exactly what the rest of us call "normal gameplay."

[ryu]

Yeah, but your experience of the game is not exactly what the rest of us call "normal gameplay."

I mean true, but if you think I'm alien can you comprehend how everyone else looks?

[Cosi]

I don't think you really need to replace it. The amount of gold that crafting gets you (barring stupid cost reduction tricks) is just not terribly broken. You get your WBL, but it's in stuff you want instead of stuff you get as drops. That's good, but not game-breaking.

The real problem is that magic items themselves are handled poorly, but that's a fairly deep problem with the system.


Time: For every thousand gold in the item's base price, the crafter ages one year.

This is bad because you don't pay any costs until you instantly die at an unpredictable time. Actually, it's worse than that because casters (particularly people with polymorph-esque spells or Wild Shape) would really like to be old.


Planar Matter: Magic items must include some amount of material mined from one of the four elemental planes, corresponding to the school of the base spell: Air for Illusion and Enchantment, Fire for Evocation and Transmutation, Earth for Abjuration and Conjuration, and Water for Divination and Necromancy.

This is probably fine, but it does make it impossible for low level characters to create magic items without high level support (unless they happen to live on the right plane on their own). That either makes items rare (which screws a group of classes that are mostly not that good to begin with), or requires a bunch of high level casters which might warp the setting depending on what setting you want.


Memories: You must pour some amount of significant memories into any item you craft-- one important fact or event for every five caster levels invested in the item. A Wish, Lesser Wish, or Miracle spell can restore the lost memories, but nothing less.

This is basically free if your Knowledge bonus is big enough. You can make a check to learn a fact that is "important", but that you don't care about (like the name of the heir of a kingdom you never visit, or the history of a long-forgotten empire), and forget it for free. Also this has really weird interactions with how you define facts and can probably be used to learn things if you have an observer. Also, what happens if you forget a changeable fact then subsequently changes, like someone's name?


Location: Magic items can only be created in locations of great natural power-- near volcanos, great forests, rich coral reefs, and so on.

This is "free" (in that it is a fixed rather than variable cost), but probably good in that it encourages casters to have fortresses in places that are visually and (potentially) tactically compelling. This is a good thing, but it doesn't do anything to discourage arbitrary amounts of crafting.

[Cosi]

I missed this the first time I replied to Grod:

More flavorful, and less disruptive to character progress. I also intend to have some low level magic items be mass produced in the campaign world, so having a crafting system based on XP doesn't really mesh with that as far as internal consistency is concerned.

So again, with that in mind:

Time: For every thousand gold in the item's base price, the crafter ages one year.

Still bad. Cost is unpredictable, and something that some people want to pay. Also makes mass production difficult because you get a relatively small value out of workers (probably < 100k each). EDIT: More importantly, you get only three months worth of work out of your workers and then they die, which is pretty evil. Could work if you were willing to use exclusively Outsiders, Elans, or Warforged as crafters.


Planar Matter: Magic items must include some amount of material mined from one of the four elemental planes, corresponding to the school of the base spell: Air for Illusion and Enchantment, Fire for Evocation and Transmutation, Earth for Abjuration and Conjuration, and Water for Divination and Necromancy.

Has problems with mass production, unless you want each operation to be sponsored by a cabal of people with plane shift and/or gate.


Memories: You must pour some amount of significant memories into any item you craft-- one important fact or event for every five caster levels invested in the item. A Wish, Lesser Wish, or Miracle spell can restore the lost memories, but nothing less.

Still has all the problems from before. Facilitates mass production, but it looks really weird. You need to discover 365 important facts for every year worth of work you want people to do, but never more. So every mass production operation will come with a big book of facts that people work through over the course of their careers, becoming increasingly detached from reality as they age (which is potentially cool, but might not be what you want).


Location: Magic items can only be created in locations of great natural power-- near volcanos, great forests, rich coral reefs, and so on.

This is good, and if you want people to spam items it becomes an unalloyed good for the game. Could combine with the Planar Matter suggestion by sticking permanent gates in the relevant areas (which creates cool adventure hooks, look at magic sites in Dominions).

[Telonius]

How about favors? You could pay an Artificer or a Midgard Dwarf the usual half-list-price cost of creation to whip up something for you quickly, but they require a favor/plot hook in return.

[Hish]

Planar Matter: Magic items must include some amount of material mined from one of the four elemental planes, corresponding to the school of the base spell: Air for Illusion and Enchantment, Fire for Evocation and Transmutation, Earth for Abjuration and Conjuration, and Water for Divination and Necromancy.
Location: Magic items can only be created in locations of great natural power-- near volcanos, great forests, rich coral reefs, and so on.


What about a combination of both? Locations reduce the cost of creating the item, then the planar material could fill in the rest of the cost. You could have factories set up in these places to allow mass-production (maybe they wouldn't be factories per se, if the setting doesn't support factories. A small village that makes money selling magic items to the world?). If you don't like the planar material, you could use ambrosia/liquid pain.


This is probably fine, but it does make it impossible for low level characters to create magic items without high level support (unless they happen to live on the right plane on their own). That either makes items rare (which screws a group of classes that are mostly not that good to begin with), or requires a bunch of high level casters which might warp the setting depending on what setting you want.

I was thinking you would have mining companies that would be dedicated to going to other planes for the material.