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View Full Version : Pathfinder Good ways to alter the alignment of creatures that one has Awakened.



Coidzor
2017-03-16, 01:49 AM
So far I see a few options.

1. Wheedle or otherwise talk the GM into just handwaving it so that subjects of Awaken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken/) take on the alignment of the spellcaster. The main downside is variability depending upon GM and not being ironclad supported in the rules. Also doesn't work to get you creatures with a different alignment if that's what you're after.

2. While able to get them to do things for you, get them to do actions that cause alignment change. The main downside is that this slows down the production of animal people.

3. Get them to accept an Atonement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/atonement/) spell to change to your alignment. May run afoul of not working due to magical compulsions, also only gets you creatures with the alignment of a spellcaster with Atonement (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/atonement/) that one has access to, may result in having to pay for spellcasting services.

4. While they're still friendly but are no longer doing things for you unless it's also in their interest, convince them to do actions that change their alignment to the desired alignment. Main downside I see is the amount of time it can take and potential difficulties with arranging for there to be actions of X alignment that are in a creature's interest to do.

Let's say we've got a Shaman who wants to pad out their organization of choice with some Awakened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken/) Animals and/or Awakened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken/) Anthropomorphic Animals (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal/). For whatever reason, True Neutral creatures wouldn't really be a good fit beyond the very short term.

What does our Shaman do?

Ettina
2017-03-16, 07:59 AM
I think animals are only true neutral because they're too dumb to be good or evil. The only really low Int creatures that aren't TN are literally powered by alignment magic, such as undead or extraplanar creatures.
So I'd say that the awakened animals wouldn't have any particular tendency to be true neutral, but instead would find their alignment based on how they interpret things with their newfound intelligence. The shaman could try to influence them, but it would be about as effective as a parent trying to influence their child's alignment.
Some animals' natural tendencies, once they're awakened, would also seem to predispose them to good or evil, or lawful or chaotic. Dogs for example would probably tend towards lawful, because they really like following orders (judging from my Labrador, at least). In fact probably lawful good, because they also tend to have a lot of empathy for people and other dogs who are suffering. Cats are more like 'so? what's in it for me?' so they'd probably be more inclined towards chaotic alignments. Rats have been found in lab studies to help other rats even when it's to their own detriment (when they could eat all the chocolate chips, or release a trapped friend and share the chocolate chips, they released their friend and shared the chips) so they'd tend towards being good. (I used to have rats, trust me, they don't deserve the nasty reputation they have.) Meanwhile baboon males are naturally inclined to be violent misogynist *****, so they might tend towards evil. If you read up on the animal's typical behavior, you could get a sense for how a sentient version of that would typically behave, and what alignment would be associated with that behavior pattern.
Of course, each awakened animal would be an individual, so there's room for variation there. Before being awakened, there'd be differences in their personalities (even fish have personalities - some are more timid and others are more bold), and then during the adjustment to being awakened, more differences would emerge.

Geddy2112
2017-03-16, 10:08 AM
I second that the animal, before awakening, is simply too stupid(int score of 1-2) to even understand morality and ethics. Once awakened, the animal suddenly knows all about this kind of thing. It probably would not change alignment immediately, but it is capable of understanding morality and ethics. There is a chance the animal could have a major existential crisis as well, which could lead down almost any alignment...

Certainly a specific animal's biology and individual temperament will influence it some. As Ettina said, a pack/herd animal like a dog will probably have some predisposition towards law, and a solitary animal like a housecat or tiger has some predisposition to chaos.

Predator animals would suddenly understand that they are killing things to eat, but in most systems, settings and understanding of alignment this is not an evil act. It is probably not good, but certainly not evil to kill animals for food. An awakened Tiger knows it cannot eat plants, and must hunt, but it might go out of its way to ensure the kills are quick and clean, while the same animal pre awakened might have fun "playing" with its food.

Awakening a wild animal is going to have it fall to its basal biology and likely still be neutral. These animals are now intelligent enough to be trained and over time could make their own choices, but as you said this would be difficult and take a lot of time.

Your best bet is to condition the animal beforehand. An awakened animal that was a druid's companion or otherwise domesticated has the best chance of instantly changing once it understands. Say a neutral evil druid awakened their wolf companion, that they had trained to brutally hunt down, stalk, and kill. The wolf's previous actions won't default it to evil once it is awakened, but it has a pretty good chance or continuing to do evil or even a wish to do so. Now say you have a guard dog that works for a lawful good city guard. Once awakened, it will probably continue being lawful good and even wish to continue serving as a guard.

The key to this is that those behaviors were positively reinforced and rewarded in those animals. That good(in the interest of the animal) things happened when the wolf killed, or the dog barked/sniffed out trouble. That their owner/handler was kind to them and treated them well. In the case of abuse or neglect, the creature may take on the alignment that is opposite the owner once awakened, to rebel against it and the actions it took. Abused animals might themselves become evil out of bitterness, and possibly nonlawful if they seek vengeance against their owner. Neglected animals are liable to be chaotic, having no structure or order to rely on other than themselves, but also might become very lawful as they desperately seek order and acceptance.

Of course, some domesticated animals might double down on not giving a flip one way or another. You take a gruff and likely older animal and awaken it, and you will probably end up with Old Benjamin from Animal Farm-something even more neutral now that it understands.

Coidzor
2017-03-16, 04:05 PM
Any ideas for animals that would be predisposed towards Good or Evil? The herd/pack animal versus solitary animal argument for predisposition towards Law vs. Chaos seems solid enough.

What about behaviors to encourage towards the alignment extremes, beyond rewarding them while still Animal Intelligence for harming or aiding other creatures?

In the next opportunity I'll have to play around with this in a game personally, for instance, I'm going to want some animal friends that occupy the LN-LE-NE corner of the alignment grid.

Geddy2112
2017-03-16, 11:45 PM
Any ideas for animals that would be predisposed towards Good or Evil?
The major evil act an animal could commit is murder. Animals are not really capable of evil acts otherwise for various reasons; the next most common would be rape(ducks are a prime example) but on an animal level this is not evil, instead actually seen as protecting the species as a whole. Most animals will only kill if they are hunting for food, or acting in self defense. Your really sadistic predators like cats that might hurt or play with their food and may be more penchant to evil. Animals that aggressively and violently defend territory could also be evil of any color. Some animals break down by gender-sea otter males rape and murder for fun(also territorial), while female sea otters are gentler and nurturing creatures.

With that in mind, dominant territorial apex predators are your thing for predisposed to evil. Solitary animals like tigers are likely more chaotic, while lions are more lawful. Octopi and most cuddlefish are very chaotic evil, if underwater critters are your thing. Orcas can be solitary or pods, but are very evil.


What about behaviors to encourage towards the alignment extremes, beyond rewarding them while still Animal Intelligence for harming or aiding other creatures?
Pushing anything outside of its biology, which is largely possible by classical conditioning. Cats can be trained to do tricks like dogs, and even act in a "pack" form. While wolves are pack hunters, domesticated dogs are long removed from this and only retain select traits of their wolflike ancestors. Dogs can be trained to be guard, attack, companion, agility, hunting, seeing eye(and other forms of support animal) and any multitude of things. A horse can be trained for battle; to kick and bite on command. A horse can equally be trained to pull a wagon, run from threats, or even serve as a guide/support animal.

Abuse or mistreatment can create an overly good or evil animal. Some mistreated animals become violent and digressive, while others become skittish and submissive. This varies within species and even breeds, and breed, temperment, and situation all play important roles.

Animals with the lack of ability to harm or manipulate others are rarely going to be evil. Sheep and rabbits are simply not cut out for evil, even awakened(although it is possible). Using some example from Animal Farm and some from pigs/wild hogs in general, swine are very capable of evil even without awakening.


In the next opportunity I'll have to play around with this in a game personally, for instance, I'm going to want some animal friends that occupy the LN-LE-NE corner of the alignment grid.
For this, I would go with group predators. Lions and wolves follow hierarchy and are willing to kill for food, maybe even for sport. Aggressively territorial animals might also be good picks, but could easily become CN-CE. Animals used by corrupt organizations are liable to be lawful evil, but could possibly reject that philosophy
as well. Sport-fighting animals would most likely be neutral/chaotic evil, but any nongood alignment possible and good alignment rare.

Ettina
2017-03-17, 11:42 PM
For good animals, I'd recommend looking at research on animal altruism and empathy. Animals that have empathy for others and are naturally altruistic would tend towards good. Examples include bonobos, rats, elephants, dogs and vampire bats (they regurgitate food for starving fellow bats).
Animals that are very aggressive towards the same species/individuals we'd expect them to have a close bond with, animals that engage in rape, and animals that kill for fun or engage in torture might tend towards evil. Examples include cats, ducks (they're rapists), hyenas (twin siblings try to kill each other within hours of birth), baboons, cuckoos (killing your adoptive siblings is brutal), and spoon-billed storks (the parents show blatant favoritism to their older chick, who often kills their younger sibling).
Of course, there are also animals who show both good and evil traits, like dolphins (who have empathy and altruism, but also rape) and chimpanzees (who will torture random animals, and are quite violent, but also show empathy and altruism towards sick or injured members of their troup). Those ones could be all over, depending on which traits are more pronounced in that individual, much like humans are.