[3.5] At-will attack for a 2nd level Sorcerer?

[Uncle Pine]

Hello playgrounders,

I was wondering if there is a way for a 2nd level Sorcerer to get some sort of magical at-will attack to spam after running out of spells. Until yesterday, I was under the impression that Fiery Burst didn't require 2nd level spells and so I was leaning on that to accomplish my goal.

Is there any other way to get an at-will attack at such a low level as a Sorcerer (no Warlock dip)?
If everything else fails I could use Earth Sense + Heighten Spells (flaw) + Earth Spell (flaw) + Fiery Burst (human) to get it at level 1, but that seems extremely convoluted for what is effectively just a cool trick.

[weckar]

DFA dip? I mean, it's not a Warlock dip...

[Troacctid]

Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle).

Works best if you're an Azurin.

[Uncle Pine]

DFA dip? I mean, it's not a Warlock dip...
It still isn't something a 2nd level Sorcerer can have access to. I'm sorry, I should've been more clear and said "no dips".


Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle).

Works best if you're an Azurin.
This works very well, thank you!

If anyone else has other ideas (especially if fire-/arcane- themed), keep them coming. Alternatives are always good.

[Pyromancer999]

Human + Precocious Apprentice(for Fire spell) + Fiery Burst

[Nettlekid]

Light Crossbow. 1d8 damage, 80 ft range before taking a penalty to hit, and it costs neither class levels nor feats.

[Grim Reader]

In addition to Pyromancer999 s advice on Precocious Apprentice, Heighten + Versatile spellcaster also lets you qualify for Fiery Burst.

[ben-zayb]

Silverbrow Human + Spellfire Wielder feat? The catch is that you will need to recharge it in-between encounters, and it gets you MADder (CHA, CON, DEX).

How about being a Dragonborn?

[Uncle Pine]

Human + Precocious Apprentice(for Fire spell) + Fiery Burst
Now that's simple and easy. When looking for early entry tricks for PrCs and similar I usually default to Sanctum Spell, so I had completely forgotten about Precocious Apprentice.

[Mystral]

Hello playgrounders,

I was wondering if there is a way for a 2nd level Sorcerer to get some sort of magical at-will attack to spam after running out of spells. Until yesterday, I was under the impression that Fiery Burst didn't require 2nd level spells and so I was leaning on that to accomplish my goal.

Is there any other way to get an at-will attack at such a low level as a Sorcerer (no Warlock dip)?
If everything else fails I could use Earth Sense + Heighten Spells (flaw) + Earth Spell (flaw) + Fiery Burst (human) to get it at level 1, but that seems extremely convoluted for what is effectively just a cool trick.
While there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, I don't think that the feat investment pays of even in the medium term. As a level 2 sorcerer, you are going to cast your spells for special occasions, and taking down the chaff with at will stuff is the job of the fighter, rogue and cleric. Get a light crossbow and you won't do much less damage, and you'll be thankfull for the feats come the medium levels.

[Uncle Pine]

While there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, I don't think that the feat investment pays of even in the medium term. As a level 2 sorcerer, you are going to cast your spells for special occasions, and taking down the chaff with at will stuff is the job of the fighter, rogue and cleric. Get a light crossbow and you won't do much less damage, and you'll be thankfull for the feats come the medium levels.

I'm simply gathering ideas for a small 2nd level adventure that may or may not happen in a few weeks in case any of the players asks me for suggestions/help with their character, so getting to the medium levels won't happen.

[weckar]

Plus, it may not be ideal or optimal to go for at-wills -- but it is FUN!

[Inevitability]

Plus, it may not be ideal or optimal to go for at-wills -- but it is FUN!

Also, at low levels it's kind of necessary if you want to contribute meaningfully. Casters basically get one spell per combat: after that it's acid splashes unless you invest in at-wills.

[Deophaun]

While there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, I don't think that the feat investment pays of even in the medium term.
That's why Pelor gave us the PHBII.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In addition to the ones already mentioned you can qualify for Winter's Blast with Snowcasting as long as you know a 1st level [Cold] spell.
If all you care about is contributing damage (or are allowed flaws) you can also get Bind Soulmeld:Soulspark Familiar or Wild Cohort for companions that are useful at low levels. You can also trade in your familar for an animal companion - it's identical to a druid one until level 3, longer if you spend a feat on Natural Bond.
Another option is taking Mercantile Background and spending the extra starting gold on a wand of Acid Splash or another cantrip (or a partially charged wand of a 1st - Power Word:Pain rocks at low level). That should last you long enough to level up.


While there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, I don't think that the feat investment pays of even in the medium term. As a level 2 sorcerer, you are going to cast your spells for special occasions, and taking down the chaff with at will stuff is the job of the fighter, rogue and cleric. Get a light crossbow and you won't do much less damage, and you'll be thankfull for the feats come the medium levels.
It's worth it if you can retrain later or have a psion in the party/get access to Psychic Reformation. If only to fight the crippling boredom.
Even if it's not much less effective, nobody likes plinking away with a crossbow on a low BAB (and possibly low dex as well) build, especially if what you wanted to play was a caster.

[daremetoidareyo]

Flasks of alchemists whathaveyou?

[Inevitability]

Flasks of alchemists whathaveyou?

If you opt for this, pick Launch Item as one of your cantrips. Range penalties suck.

[Troacctid]

The other thing about Shape Soulmeld that I didn't mention earlier is that it also has the benefit of letting you take Share Soulmeld to give your familiar access to it. So even when you've leveled up enough that you don't need it anymore, your pet bat can still spend its action spitting acid for 2d6 free damage a round.

[TIPOT]

If you buy a wand of orb lesser (something) for 750gp that's 50 charges which is basically at will

[Troacctid]

If you buy a wand of orb lesser (something) for 750gp that's 50 charges which is basically at will

You can't afford that as a 2nd level character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you buy a wand of orb lesser (something) for 750gp that's 50 charges which is basically at will
Unless you're fighting undead (or plants or vermin) you're better off buying a wand of Power Word:Pain. It needs no attack roll, has no save and does significantly more damage (spread over several rounds, but so what?).
It's mind-affecting, but that doesn't exactly come up a lot at low levels. Presumably you can ask your DM if you'll see nothing but zombies until level 3-4.

Sunstroke is another good option - it does 2d6 nonlethal, no save, with a fort save for fatigue. Only works on living creatures, but again unless you're fighting undead or constructs it's not exactly a problem and the lack of attack roll helps a lot. Low level casters suck at hitting things, particularly when you're playing with low point buys or roll bad.


You can't afford that as a 2nd level character.
WBL for a 2nd level character is 900gp iirc.
And that's also assuming you can't haggle (diplomacy skill, rules in CAdv) or have Mercantile Background (+300gp starting wealth, 75% buy cost 1/month, sell stuff for 75% of price instead of 50%. A very good feat that will remain useful throughout your career unlike most other options here, if your build isn't too feat starved).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn of Bahamut or White Dragonspawn gets a breath weapon usable every few rounds. Works best with Entangling Exhalation.

As others have said, Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster + 1st level fire spell allows you to take Fiery Burst at level 1, but you'd need flaws to have enough feats.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sandblaster from mm3 or 4, I forget, the sand giant weapon, shoots out a cone. The non proficiency don't matter, cuz ya ain't rolling to hit. I'd just do a little sand giant court jester backstory and shoot sand all over the place.

[Malroth]

Animal Companion variant Sorcorer with the Wild Cohort feat just sick your 2 attack dogs on things you disable with sleep/colorspray

[Mystral]

If you buy a wand of orb lesser (something) for 750gp that's 50 charges which is basically at will

Good suggestion. Just give your player the thing with 20 charges as a boon and the other players comparable stuff, like a masterwork weapon or something like that. 20 charges should be plenty to last through a quick one-off.

I wouldn't take an orb spell, though, because you can still miss it and get penality for firing into melee, basically you get a lot of the problems associated with using a crossbow. Magic Missile seems better.

[Thurbane]

You can do it with flaws.

H Versatile Spellcaster
1 Heighten Spell
F Fiery Burst

...although Precocious Apprentice is probably easier.

[Uncle Pine]

Yeah Precocious Apprentice is probably the way to go to get Fiery Burst in a 2nd level one shot or similar. However, every time someone suggests giving a low level Wizard Wild Cohort, the animal companion ACF or just a few gold to get a bunch of riding dogs to throw them at poor NPCs, I'm reminded of that one time I tried GURPs as a player, made a Wizard-ish low level librarian and spent a loads of points in a magic spell that did exactly that: unleashing hounds. It never ceases to make me smile. :smallbiggrin:

[Dagroth]

Yeah Precocious Apprentice is probably the way to go to get Fiery Burst in a 2nd level one shot or similar. However, every time someone suggests giving a low level Wizard Wild Cohort, the animal companion ACF or just a few gold to get a bunch of riding dogs to throw them at poor NPCs, I'm reminded of that one time I tried GURPs as a player, made a Wizard-ish low level librarian and spent a loads of points in a magic spell that did exactly that: unleashing hounds. It never ceases to make me smile. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, the old Johnny One-Spell trick. :smallbiggrin: Johnny Undo has always been my favorite. With a high enough skill in the Undo spell, you can unravel worn chainmail & unweave clothing!

[Uncle Pine]

Ah, the old Johnny One-Spell trick. :smallbiggrin: Johnny Undo has always been my favorite. With a high enough skill in the Undo spell, you can unravel worn chainmail & unweave clothing!

I actually had other spells, like one that could summon a wall of stone (yeah, you can do that at the equivalent of 1st level in GURPs) and a "bag of tricks" ability that allowed me to have simple tools for various tasks like a spade, a rope, etc., in addition to dumping a lot of points in the skill that lets you concentrate on spells. But I really loved throwing my dogs at people, or using them to track people, or locking them inside walls with people in it. You get the idea.

[Inevitability]

Yeah Precocious Apprentice is probably the way to go to get Fiery Burst in a 2nd level one shot or similar. However, every time someone suggests giving a low level Wizard Wild Cohort, the animal companion ACF or just a few gold to get a bunch of riding dogs to throw them at poor NPCs, I'm reminded of that one time I tried GURPs as a player, made a Wizard-ish low level librarian and spent a loads of points in a magic spell that did exactly that: unleashing hounds. It never ceases to make me smile. :smallbiggrin:

Did you shout 'release the hounds!' when casting it? :smalltongue:

[Uncle Pine]

Did you shout 'release the hounds!' when casting it? :smalltongue:

Nah: the character was an expy of my usual Cha 8 3.5e Wizard, so he focused more on effectiveness than style.

[Tetsubo 57]

Light Crossbow. 1d8 damage, 80 ft range before taking a penalty to hit, and it costs neither class levels nor feats.

I like the simplicity of this idea.

[Troacctid]

You can do it with flaws.

H Versatile Spellcaster
1 Heighten Spell
F Fiery Burst

...although Precocious Apprentice is probably easier.
Neither of those methods works. Reserve feats require a spontaneous caster to know an appropriate spell of the required level, and neither Heighten Spell nor Precocious Apprentice gives you a 2nd level spell known.

[Calthropstu]

Ahhh, I keep forgetting about the whole "no infinite cantrips" thing, or the "no bloodline powers." Oh how pathfinder has spoiled me.

[Thurbane]

Neither of those methods works. Reserve feats require a spontaneous caster to know an appropriate spell of the required level, and neither Heighten Spell nor Precocious Apprentice gives you a 2nd level spell known.

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that:


A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast...

[Troacctid]

The rule you quoted right there says you have to know an appropriate spell.

[Thurbane]

Appropriate spell in this case would simply mean a spell with the Fire descriptor, unless I'm missing anything?

Two separate conditions are checked:
1. Do you know a fire spell?
2. Do you have a high enough level slot capable of casting said fire spell?

[Troacctid]

It needs to be a fire spell of 2nd level or higher, as per the feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It needs to be a fire spell of 2nd level or higher, as per the feat.

A fire spell heightened to 2nd level is a 2nd level fire spell. That's what heighten does.

[Vizzerdrix]

Appropriate spell in this case would simply mean a spell with the Fire descriptor, unless I'm missing anything?

Two separate conditions are checked:
1. Do you know a fire spell?
2. Do you have a high enough level slot capable of casting said fire spell?

#2 would be the sticking point. Versatile spellcaster does not give you a slot, it lets you pay with two lesser slots. Now, if you have a fire cantrip, heighten, and a second level slot, you would be in business.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

#2 would be the sticking point. Versatile spellcaster does not give you a slot, it lets you pay with two lesser slots. Now, if you have a fire cantrip, heighten, and a second level slot, you would be in business.

The feat itself, though, looks at whether you have a 2nd level fire spell available to cast, which Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell definitely fulfills.

In all cases, specific trumps general. The specific wording of any particular reserve feat supersedes the general rules regarding reserve feats when arbitrating that particular reserve feat. The general rules on reserve feats don't even take Heighten Spell into consideration, and can and should be completely dismissed when Heighten Spell allows you to fulfill the specific requirements of any particular reserve feat.

[Troacctid]

A fire spell heightened to 2nd level is a 2nd level fire spell. That's what heighten does.
When you're casting it, yes. Which means you qualify for "Able to cast 2nd level spells." But as per the rules for reserve feats, in order to use them as a spontaneous caster, you have to have an appropriate known spell, and you only know it as a 1st level spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When you're casting it, yes. Which means you qualify for "Able to cast 2nd level spells." But as per the rules for reserve feats, in order to use them as a spontaneous caster, you have to have an appropriate known spell, and you only know it as a 1st level spell.

The feat itself, though, looks at whether you have a 2nd level fire spell available to cast, which Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell definitely fulfills.

In all cases, specific trumps general. The specific wording of any particular reserve feat supersedes the general rules regarding reserve feats when arbitrating that particular reserve feat. The general rules on reserve feats don't even take Heighten Spell into consideration, and can and should be completely dismissed when Heighten Spell allows you to fulfill the specific requirements of any particular reserve feat.

[Troacctid]

The feat itself, though, looks at whether you have a 2nd level fire spell available to cast, which Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell definitely fulfills.

In all cases, specific trumps general. The specific wording of any particular reserve feat supersedes the general rules regarding reserve feats when arbitrating that particular reserve feat. The general rules on reserve feats don't even take Heighten Spell into consideration, and can and should be completely dismissed when Heighten Spell allows you to fulfill the specific requirements of any particular reserve feat.
"Available to cast" is not just being used in its general English meaning; it is a defined game term.

The primary benefit can only be activated if the caster has a spell of an appropriate variety (of a particular school, subschool, or descriptor) available to cast. The definition of “available to cast” depends on whether the character prepares spells or casts spontaneously from a list of spells known.

A spellcaster who prepares spells each day (such as a wizard) must have an appropriate spell prepared and not yet cast that day. If the character has more than one appropriate spell prepared and uncast, she gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell; she can't gain multiple benefits, or stack benefits, by preparing more than one appropriate spell.

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher. If the character has more than one appropriate spell known, he gains the benefit only from the highest-level spell for which he has an unused spell slot of that level or higher.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Available to cast" is not just being used in its general English meaning; it is a defined game term.

Again, the general rule doesn't take Heighten Spell into consideration, but it also doesn't dismiss it as a possible means of activating a reserve feat.

It also doesn't consider the fact that a Druid who doesn't prepare a summon nature's ally spell may still have one available to cast at any given time, but since a Druid prepares spells he wouldn't be able to use that to activate a reserve feat if adhering to the general rule. When considering the specific wording of the Summon Elemental reserve feat, a Druid is definitely able to cast a summoning spell in place of any spell he has prepared, so he should be able to count his highest level spell currently prepared for activating it. Strictly adhering to the general rule, that Druid would need to leave a spell slot open and unused to benefit from the reserve feat according to the general rule on spontaneous casters, even though he can't use that spell slot to actually cast that summon nature's ally spell because he can only convert prepared spells into those. It becomes a situation where he either can't cast the summon nature's ally spell in order to be able to activate the reserve feat, or he can cast the summon nature's ally spell but that doesn't allow him to activate the feat.

It's clear that the general rules on reserve feats didn't even try to consider any of the possible situations outside of a single-classed Wizard or Sorcerer with no feats or items that affect how they cast spells. It's more making a point that the character must have that spell available to cast right now, not after they rest again, to activate a reserve feat, and did a poor job of getting the point across that this was the only purpose those paragraphs serve.

You're free to rule it any way you want at your own table, it's already widely accepted that Heighten Spell can benefit reserve feats, which requires that the specific wording of a particular feat override the general rules on reserve feats.

[Troacctid]

You can Heighten a 1st level spell, but you still have to actually know a 2nd level spell and have a 2nd level spell slot available. With Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell, you don't meet either of those requirements. That's how the rules work.

[zergling.exe]

Also the general rule isn't overridden, it is supplementary. It's additional rules that tell you how exactly the requirements of the feats works for spontaneous vs prepared.

[Amechra]

I support the Precocious Apprentice idea, especially since it essentially just turns into a 2nd level spell slot once you hit 4th level.

It's also much more balanced than the other options, especially if you aren't playing in a high-op environment.