Why Evokers are amazing if you know some science

[ChrisDemilich]

So, everyone says Evokers are sub-optimal. And going by the spells as given in the game, I can see their point. There is so much more variety in the other schools of magic. I mean, all evocation does is create or alter energy.... Wait, WHAT?

Yes, if you know anything about modern science, then what I just said sounds like I described the most overpowered magic possible. Because everything is energy. And because D&D has rules for spell creation, any evoker worth a damn is closer to a god than they know. And I am going to go over some simple examples.

Some background though: All chemical bonds involve the interactions of energy between atoms or molecules. Atoms form molecules by sharing electrons. Or salts are formed when negatively charged atoms are attracted to positively charged atoms. Almost every protein in your body holds it shape(i.e. functions) because of intramolecular forces between functional groups of the amino acids forming those proteins.

If you have the ability to alter energy, you have the ability to remake matter, undo or create chemical reactions, and literally pull apart atoms and molecules at your leisure. There are words for individuals who do that sort of thing: GODS!

So let's begin with a concept for a level 1 spell. Something simple. Causing fatigue is something necromancy can do. And fatigue is a nice debuff in early game. But how does evoker pull it off? Weeeeelllll... If your spell dephosphorylates the ATP and ADP molecules in the target's body, they've just lost all the ATP created by mitochondria(THE POWERHOUSE OF THE CELL) to power cellular functions. ATP is required for muscular activity. It will regenerate quickly, but for the ohh.. let's say 1d4 turns the target is drained of it's ATP, it's going to struggle to function. So there is that.

Why do so many schools of magic have instant kill spells and not evoker? I mean, illusion??? Really? Pass a high amperage electrical current over the heart, causing cardiac arrest and death. Boom.

But then again, instant kill is sort of hit and miss. What about buffs for the party? How about haste for the party via evocation? Weeeellll..... First let's look at neuron physiology. Everyone thinks that neurons transmit signals by sending electrical messages to and from each other. This is mostly accurate, but not the whole picture. You see, people have this image of the neurons being electrically conductive wires and jolts of electricity flow through. This would destroy the neurons if it were true. Instead, neurons use positively charged calcium ions and channels on the surface of the neuron to control the electrochemical gradient along the cell surface. When a signal is received by a neuron, it creates a cascade that pumps calcium out of the cell, changing the charge along the neurons.

Soooo, if we were to somehow speed this process up, say by helping the electrochemical gradient along it's path magically, a person's ability to react to stimuli would increase. Their ability to move would increase, since muscles are activated by neurons that trigger cascades of calcium to bind to muscle proteins. In short, in every way, you give the target a boost to the speed they are able to function at.

Polymorph? Alter the molecular structure of your target.
Acid cloud? Cause the oxygen and nitrogen in the air to react and form nitric acid.

For that matter, why throw gobs of acid at enemies, when you can cause the bicarbonate in their blood(it literally buffers blood against pH change) to form carbonic acid, and kill them quickly yet painfully with extreme acidosis?

There are so many other fun ideas, but I am busy with a biochem paper and should get back to that soon.

If your DM is spurious about this, take points in Knowledge: biology. If he asks where you learned it, remind him that divination exists. In fact, I question HOW D&D wizards do not know everything about everything when magic exists that gives them answers to questions.

Anyway, that is all I have to say about that. Have fun.

[weckar]

Before we start this -- can someone safeguard the catgirls, please?

[khadgar567]

And can you please dumb this in to hommer simpson levels mate to much science for even sci fi setting

[Grod_The_Giant]

All of that is Transmutation, though: changing the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. The fact that you know the science behind it doesn't change that.

Also, "[thing] is powerful because I can homebrew new powerful options for it" isn't a very convincing argument, because, you know, you're inventing new stuff in such a way as to totally change the game.

[ChrisDemilich]

And can you please dumb this in to hommer simpson levels mate to much science for even sci fi setting

Sure, I can do that:

Evoker control energy.

Energy hold everything together.

You change energy, you can make change everything.

Make people lose energy and no move good.

Make people has lots of energy and move gooder.

Change people energy make them look different.

Make air acid.

Make blood acid.

Me go do homework now.

If DM not sure this good idea, tell him you smart and him dumb.

Bye Bye.

[eggynack]

Doing this kinda thing through chemistry is cool beans, but it doesn't have all that much impact on evocation's power level specifically. This idea is pretty universally true for schools, not just for evocation. More or less any spell in the game could have been flavored in such a way that it could fit in more or less any school and still have the same effect. I mean, take your opening example of fatigue. Abjuration could block a target's internal energy for a bit. Conjuration can call forth some magic fatigue dust (glitterdust is right there doing something super similar). Divination can overload the target with arbitrary facts until they get bored. Enchantment does stuff like this all the time (really short step from sleep to fatiguing effects), to the extent that I don't really even need to justify a particular flavoring. Illusion can make the target temporarily think they've just exercised a ton when they actually haven't. And transmutation can alter the target from a normal person to a fatigued person. Always been interesting to me how easy that is.

[ShurikVch]

All of that is Transmutation, though: changing the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. The fact that you know the science behind it doesn't change that.

Also, "[thing] is powerful because I can homebrew new powerful options for it" isn't a very convincing argument, because, you know, you're inventing new stuff in such a way as to totally change the game.Note: Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) is Evocation

[ChrisDemilich]

All of that is Transmutation, though: changing the properties of some creature, thing, or condition. The fact that you know the science behind it doesn't change that.

Also, "[thing] is powerful because I can homebrew new powerful options for it" isn't a very convincing argument, because, you know, you're inventing new stuff in such a way as to totally change the game.

See, final results do not matter. Electrical spells alter the flow of electrons from molecule to molecule. Fire spells cause a combustion reaction that combines O2 with carbon to form carbon dioxide and heat. Ice spells slow the movement of molecules and atoms by draining away the Gibbs free energy in the system. Acid spells, cause reactions that increase the level of positively charged hydrogen atoms. All those things are just rearranging electrons or electrochemical gradients, or remaking molecules into other molecules. And so is everything I listed.

By your definition, all evocation should be a subset of transmutation, because it makes changes to matter around it. I imagine transmutation works by causing alterations that bypass chemical reactions entirely. Similar, but it's the process and not the end result that matters.

[Necroticplague]

'Energy' doesn't mean the same thing in DnD as it does in real life. In DnD, 'energy' refers to forces derived from various planes. So Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Force, and maybe one or two miscelaneous are what you have to work with.

Also, you're invoking scientific principles that are almost certainly false in DnD. After all, the basic part about any kind of energy gradient is false because it's possible to create something from nothing. Undead will continue to move, think, and otherwise act like a living being without any kind of energetic input for thousands of years. There exist methods for having a 'battery' loop to itself to charge itself, and retrieve usable energy, a logical impossibility in real life (PP recharge tricks). In short, the physics these ideas work under may not even be in place for these to even start working.

Incidentally, whether those things 'could' be classified as evocations is irrelevant, to the fact they aren't. So you're argument basically boils down to 'If you homebrew everything useful to be evocation, based on some very shaky logic, it's useful!', which, while obviously true, is trivial, and says nothing about about the state of the school as it currently exists.

[ryu]

Note: Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) is Evocation

First: The power of a school is not determined soley on ninths but the average quality of the spectrum.

Second: When people say evoker they're usually referring to classes that are arcane, not divine.

[weckar]

'Energy' doesn't mean the same thing in DnD as it does in real life. In DnD, 'energy' refers to forces derived from various planes. So Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, Force, and maybe one or two miscelaneous are what you have to work with.

I think the obvious ones missed are electricity, sonic, acid and cold. Unless that somehow breaks your definition.

[Zombimode]

I mean, all evocation does is create or alter energy.... Wait, WHAT?

Yeah, I think I will have to stop you at this point. This Statement is not correct.
A Fireball spell does not "create engery". It does "create a fireball that behaves according to the spell description".
You've Chosen to reframe this with a new vocabulary that you have borrowed from a different field (namely real-world physics). Then, after you have rewritten the effect of an evocation spell in a new language, you try to use the semantics of this new language to extrapolate new effects for the spell.

This is of course nothing more then make-belief, obfuscated by language.

[weckar]

This is of course nothing more then make-belief, obfuscated by language.
Yeah, almost like D&D or something.

[Necroticplague]

I think the obvious ones missed are electricity, sonic, acid and cold. Unless that somehow breaks your definition.

Almost everything I've seen has those associated with the elemental planes. Electricity is associated with Air, Acid associated with Earth, Cold associated with Water. Sonic is a bit more complicated, but it's a small enough hiccup that, like Light (another one i forgot about), it can be assumed to fit in somewhere (likely drawing energy from Pandemonium for Sonic, and Quasi-elemental plane of Radiance for Light).

[ryu]

Yeah, almost like D&D or something.

I think the complaint holds merit. Keep it ONE level meta-reality. Not double.

[Deophaun]

So, everyone says Evokers are sub-optimal. And going by the spells as given in the game, I can see their point. There is so much more variety in the other schools of magic. I mean, all evocation does is create or alter energy.... Wait, WHAT?
Bolded is questionable. Evocation's ability to control energy is very limited. It can send a large quantity of it somewhere over there (fireball), or contain it in a macroscopic scale area (forcecage). While there are a few exceptions, they are few.

Which means you're not going to get the fine control to turn someone's blood to acid. I mean, you might be able to turn some blood to acid with it, but the other 99% of the energy you create/use to accomplish the task is going to just be raw, untamed power that would destroy everything around the acid you created and the acid itself.

Nope. You want fine control? That's transmutation's bailiwick.

[Uncle Pine]

Tl;dr A particular gaming construct that's considered suboptimal is actually​ incredibly powerful if I introduce this homebrew content.

[Zombimode]

Yeah, almost like D&D or something.

:smallsigh:

I will just choose to believe that all you wanted to do is to make a witty comment.

Because the alternative, that you are unable to distinguish between the process of making up a Story and Setting and the process of making up rules, would be far less flattering.

[ryu]

Bolded is questionable. Evocation's ability to control energy is very limited. It can send a large quantity of it somewhere over there (fireball), or contain it in a macroscopic scale area (forcecage). While there are a few exceptions, they are few.

Which means you're not going to get the fine control to turn someone's blood to acid. I mean, you might be able to turn some blood to acid with it, but the other 99% of the energy you create/use to accomplish the task is going to just be raw, untamed power that would destroy everything around the acid you created and the acid itself.

Nope. You want fine control? That's transmutation's bailiwick.

Or alternatively conjuration. Teleport all the blood... somewhere else and conjure acid in its place.

[Zanos]

3.5 sure does have rules for spell research. And the first thing you do is compare your spells to other spells to determine appropriate school and level. So if you try to make "haste, but Evocation", your spell is going to wind up as a transmutation because haste is already an established game effect, and it's a transmutation. Also, doing what you suggest to someone would probably do very little. Your reaction time increasing is a dex increase, not a literal doubling at the rate at which you can move, which is what haste does. All the reaction time in the world isn't going to make your legs move any faster.

Also science and physics don't really apply in the D&D verse. Shocking touch does 5d6 electricity damage despite how electricity works in the real world. Fireball apparently produces enough heat to instantaneously melt many metals despite only does 5d6 damage when you first get it, more damage doesn't increase it's ability to melt stuff and the explosion of flame produces no pressure and does burn oxygen. Polymorph directly violates conservation of mass, so you'd have trouble using Evocation to replicate that anyway.

And you're wrong again about divination. Even assuming biology exists in the D&Dverse, which it doesn't, almost all powerful divination draw on the power of either deities or planar entities, none of which have any ranks in any sort of biological knowledge skill. The other divinations are based around learning stuff about a target, and have listed effects.

[Blu]

Almost everything I've seen has those associated with the elemental planes. Electricity is associated with Air, Acid associated with Earth, Cold associated with Water. Sonic is a bit more complicated, but it's a small enough hiccup that, like Light (another one i forgot about), it can be assumed to fit in somewhere (likely drawing energy from Pandemonium for Sonic, and Quasi-elemental plane of Radiance for Light).

I think sonic is associated with Air, no?

[Flickerdart]

Or alternatively conjuration. Teleport all the blood... somewhere else and conjure acid in its place.

I have done nothing but teleport blood for 3 days. (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/847/BRED.gif)

[ryu]

I have done nothing but teleport blood for 3 days. (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/847/BRED.gif)

Good meme.

[Bohandas]

I don;t think you're allowed to evoke energy inside a creature's body. Certainly not with a level 1 spell

[Necroticplague]

I think sonic is associated with Air, no?

I see that one go back and forth. Sometimes it's Lightning, sometimes it's Sonic. At least Pandemonium is consistently related to sound-based things.

[ShurikVch]

First: The power of a school is not determined soley on ninths but the average quality of the spectrum.First: unless you absolutely sure you will never reach 9th-level spells - yes, it does!
Spells of such caliber are worth the whole school, and ability/disability to use them may be a world of difference!

Second: OK, you asking for other spells?
There they are:

0th: Sonic Snap
1st: Magic Missile
2nd: Emerald Planes, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray
3rd: Fireball, Wind Wall
4th: Desert Burial, Vortex of Teeth
5th: Mind Transfer, Wall of Force
6th: Contingency
7th: Forcecage
9th: Chain Contingency

How's it?


Second: When people say evoker they're usually referring to classes that are arcane, not divine.It's not like there are shortage of methods to get Miracle as arcane caster; if you doesn't have it, then it's your problem (unless it's because of DM)

[ryu]

First: unless you absolutely sure you will never reach 9th-level spells - yes, it does!
Spells of such caliber are worth the whole school, and ability/disability to use them may be a world of difference!

Second: OK, you asking for other spells?
There they are:

0th: Sonic Snap
1st: Magic Missile
2nd: Emerald Planes, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray
3rd: Fireball, Wind Wall
4th: Desert Burial, Vortex of Teeth
5th: Mind Transfer, Wall of Force
6th: Contingency
7th: Forcecage
9th: Chain Contingency

How's it?

It's not like there are shortage of methods to get Miracle as arcane caster; if you doesn't have it, then it's your problem (unless it's because of DM)

Actually no. Even if you're playing to full twenty and perhaps a bit beyond having access to ninths will make up a tiny fraction of total time spent. Like, super small.

Second with the exception of wall of force contingency and forcecage literally every spell on that list has near equivalent or superior options in other lists. Considering you can only have one contingency spell per character chaining is basically low value. It's also much obsolesced by the craft contingent spell feat. And the force effects are only slightly better in some situations than most similar conjuration options.

[Zanos]

5th: Mind Transfer
I can't find this one. Sauce?

[ryu]

I can't find this one. Sauce?

Perhaps they were thinking of magic jar which is NECROMANCY.

[ShurikVch]

Second with the exception of wall of force contingency and forcecage literally every spell on that list has near equivalent or superior options in other lists.Such as..?
Go ahead, name it!
Just, please, on the same spell levels, not N levels higher


And the force effects are only slightly better in some situations than most similar conjuration options.Emerald Planes is a 2nd-level spell; which of conjuration options can give you indestructible 5' barrier at 3rd level (if not at the very 1st)?


I can't find this one. Sauce?Sauce?
https://hugelolcdn.com/comments/1321879.jpg
Call of Cthulhu d20 (Appendix: Lovecraftian D&D campaigns)

[Khedrac]

Personally I don't think you can rely on any of your base assumptions.
This is D&D - matter may not be composed of atoms, but instead of varying combinations of the 4 (or 7) elements, plus positive and negative energy.
At "electron" may not even exist!


See, final results do not matter. Electrical spells alter the flow of electrons from molecule to molecule.Actually probably not - magical electricity does not follow standard conduction rules (check the rules for under water spells etc.). Electrical spella create "charge" - but do they alter the flow of electrons?


Fire spells cause a combustion reaction that combines O2 with carbon to form carbon dioxide and heat.Now you are confusing "fire" with "combustion" and they are not the same. Fire (or flame) is gas heated until it glows, there is no actual requirement for oxygen (though it is rare for flame to happen without it). As for carbon? - I will put that down to a temporary mental aberation.


Ice spells slow the movement of molecules and atoms by draining away the Gibbs free energy in the system.Possibly, but cold in D&D is not simply 'less heat'.


Acid spells, cause reactions that increase the level of positively charged hydrogen atoms. All those things are just rearranging electrons or electrochemical gradients, or remaking molecules into other molecules. And so is everything I listed.Actually, acid spells usually create acid rather than make other things more acidic. That said, this one is fairly true if atoms and molecules exist in D&D similarly to the real world.


By your definition, all evocation should be a subset of transmutation, because it makes changes to matter around it. I imagine transmutation works by causing alterations that bypass chemical reactions entirely. Similar, but it's the process and not the end result that matters.
As others have said, not really. If your above points were all correct, then possibly, but evocation is about energy not transmutaion of material (except in as much as the energy usally tranforms what it hits).

[OracleofWuffing]

If you have the ability to alter energy, you have the ability to remake matter, undo or create chemical reactions, and literally pull apart atoms and molecules at your leisure. There are words for individuals who do that sort of thing: GODS!
But those are Prestidigitation's jobs. And that's Universal, not Evocation. :smalltongue:

[ryu]

First: unless you absolutely sure you will never reach 9th-level spells - yes, it does!
Spells of such caliber are worth the whole school, and ability/disability to use them may be a world of difference!

Second: OK, you asking for other spells?
There they are:

0th: Sonic Snap
1st: Magic Missile
2nd: Emerald Planes, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray
3rd: Fireball, Wind Wall
4th: Desert Burial, Vortex of Teeth
5th: Mind Transfer, Wall of Force
6th: Contingency
7th: Forcecage
9th: Chain Contingency

How's it?

It's not like there are shortage of methods to get Miracle as arcane caster; if you doesn't have it, then it's your problem (unless it's because of DM)

0: Launch bolt
1: Symbol of pain
2: Not literally indestructible but grease at one level lower gets wider area and is much more debilitating at a lower level. Gust of wind is awful and one step above HOLD PORTAL for having some niche uses. Not dignifying it with a response. Fire blasting? Orb of fire line is just superior because of no SR and working on golems.
3: See orb of fire line again, At one level higher friendly fire is immediate action castable, works on all projectiles, AND lets you counterattack with your defensive spell at no action cost.
4: 4th level just for some control? Try web at second. Or black tentacles, Orb of force will usually kill faster than your vortex and also harder to mitigate the damage even if not lethal.
5: Magic Jar, Wall of stone accomplishes the same general goal in most situations and at much lower level. Wall of steel for something a bit harder.
6: We've passed the point of spells I claimed perfect replication and haven't already listed. Care to see the much expanded list of pretty much every other school that has far more, and more valuable good spells that aren't playing mimic in this conversation?

[Deophaun]

Second: OK, you asking for other spells?
There they are:

0th: Sonic Snap
- Never used or needed. Also, acid splash.

1st: Magic Missile
- Never cast. I have used scrolls or wands of it at low level. Higher, I summon a musteval or four. Not worth actually learning.

2nd: Emerald Planes, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray
- Dark way is more useful than emerald planes, because even though it needs to be anchored, it can at least form a wall, while an emerald plane cannot be placed within 5' of another one.
- Gust of wind I've never used. Too situational.
- Scorching ray I have used as the basis for a Mailman build, but that's playing with the normies. Acid arrow is comparable, though. Even though it doesn't do as much damage, you at least don't have to be in close range to use it.

3rd: Fireball, Wind Wall
- Fireball I've, get this, never used.
- Wind wall is similar. For all the complaints about how it shuts down archers, it only shuts down archers, which already are underpowered. I've done similar with a silent image.

4th: Desert Burial, Vortex of Teeth
- Bands of steel comes one level earlier and cannot be defeated by teleportation.
- Vortex of teeth I've actually used, but it was more for the sake of using it. Modest damage over a large area isn't a reason to not prohibit the school.

5th: Mind Transfer, Wall of Force
- Call of Cthulhu is Call of Cthulhu, not D&D. Plus magic jar.
- Wall of force has been conceded, though wall of iron/salt/stone can get you some of the utility.

6th: Contingency
- A feat does it better.

7th: Forcecage
- Conceded. Though again, teleportation beats it, and at this level that's not an uncommon defense. I mean, the things that it works against aren't really a threat, are they?

Hey look, even you think 8th is hopeless!

9th: Chain Contingency
- A feat does it better.

[ryu]

And this is before we start bringing up the gems of the other schools. Barring enchantment, they're both much much more extensive and usually far more powerful unique effects.

[eggynack]

Resilient sphere is pretty nice.

[ryu]

Resilient sphere is pretty nice.

Resilient sphere and force effedts do not an entire school of magic make. They're, like, nice things to pick up if you haven't banned the school, but otherwise? Eh. Do you wanna start the conversation of comparing the list of uniquely good evocation to uniquely good literally anything that's not enchantment which is just comparable?

[eggynack]

Resilient sphere and force effedts do not an entire school of magic make. They're, like, nice things to pick up if you haven't banned the school, but otherwise? Eh. Do you wanna start the conversation of comparing the list of uniquely good evocation to uniquely good literally anything that's not enchantment which is just comparable?
Nah, it's still the second worst school. That this stuff is present is just what moves it out of the worst school slot.

[ryu]

Nah, it's still the second worst school. That this stuff is present is just what moves it out of the worst school slot.

And even then I don't think it reaches those lofty heights handily. I mean yeah enchantment loses, but consider it at least a fighting defeat as opposed to a curbstomp.

[ShurikVch]

0: Launch boltFirstly, Launch bolt required attack roll and impeded by enemy's AC; and secondly - you can't add any useful metamagic to it


1: Symbol of paint:smallconfused: 5th-level spell to prove inferiority of 1st-level spell? Weird...


2: Not literally indestructible but grease at one level lower gets wider area and is much more debilitating at a lower level.Grease doesn't block LoE - thus can't accomplish the same thing; also, Allip wouldn't be affected by the grease...


Gust of wind is awful and one step above HOLD PORTAL for having some niche uses. Not dignifying it with a response.Gust of Wind is a counter for various "cloud" spells - including those of much much higher level - and low-level mean to repel swarms


Fire blasting? Orb of fire line is just superior because of no SR and working on golems.Lesser Orb of Fire at 3rd level do 8 damage on average, Scorching Ray - 12; what Golems at CR 3?


3: See orb of fire line againNo, I don't see it - how is 20' spread comarable to a single target spell? And Orb of Fire is one level higher - thus beyond the scope


At one level higher friendly fire is immediate action castable, works on all projectiles, AND lets you counterattack with your defensive spell at no action cost.Once again - one level higher... But still, assuming numerous archers - how fast you will run out of spells?


4: 4th level just for some control? Try web at second.Web is environment-dependent, thus likely unusable in area fit for Desert Burial


Or black tentaclesBlack Tentacles are OK, but blocking path for your one melee; Desert Burial is Instantaneous


Orb of force will usually kill faster than your vortex and also harder to mitigate the damage even if not lethal.Are you seriously comparing Instantaneous single-target spell with area spell with round/level duration? Also, there is chance to miss...


5: Magic JarIs limited by duration; Mind Transfer is Instantaneous

Wall of stone accomplishes the same general goal in most situations and at much lower level. Wall of steel for something a bit harder.:smallconfused: What "much lower level"? They are the same level! And Wall of Iron is one level higher!

[Deophaun]

:smallconfused: 5th-level spell to prove inferiority of 1st-level spell? Weird...He probably meant power word: pain, which is pants-off broken.

[eggynack]

Once again - one level higher... But still, assuming numerous archers - how fast you will run out of spells?

The spell also has a full round mode that keeps the effect up for rounds/level. It's a pretty great spell.

[ryu]

Firstly, Launch bolt required attack roll and impeded by enemy's AC; and secondly - you can't add any useful metamagic to it

:smallconfused: 5th-level spell to prove inferiority of 1st-level spell? Weird...

Grease doesn't block LoE - thus can't accomplish the same thing; also, Allip wouldn't be affected by the grease...

Gust of Wind is a counter for various "cloud" spells - including those of much much higher level - and low-level mean to repel swarms

Lesser Orb of Fire at 3rd level do 8 damage on average, Scorching Ray - 12; what Golems at CR 3?

No, I don't see it - how is 20' spread comarable to a single target spell? And Orb of Fire is one level higher - thus beyond the scope

Once again - one level higher... But still, assuming numerous archers - how fast you will run out of spells?

Web is environment-dependent, thus likely unusable in area fit for Desert Burial

Black Tentacles are OK, but blocking path for your one melee; Desert Burial is Instantaneous

Are you seriously comparing Instantaneous single-target spell with area spell with round/level duration? Also, there is chance to miss...

Is limited by duration; Mind Transfer is Instantaneous
:smallconfused: What "much lower level"? They are the same level! And Wall of Iron is one level higher!

You wanna waste how many feats on a tactic that's no longer useful past level 5? Meant power word pain actually.

Grease is much better battlefield control, and no enemy is gonna care about a wall that tiny for more than one round.

There's a reason I said one step ABOVE hold portal as opposed to below. You want a better counter to clouds? Abrupt jaunt.

Just pointing out that scorching ray becomes quickly irrelevant Also literally anything with SR.

There is literally no situation I'd cast fireball in. The answer to crowds is battlefield control. There ARE situations I'd use orb of fire line spells though.

Wall of salt. Also free money.

About several rounds before the archers run out of being alive.

You seem to have this odd idea that I consider people who can't cast spells party members rather than hired NPCs.

I'd much rather the orb because the target is dead THIS turn.

Your proposed spell isn't even D&D.

[AnachroNinja]

I feel like a lot of people misread the tone of the OP on this one. Seemed pretty obviously tongue in cheek rather then claiming Evokers were super powerful in game with home brew...

[icefractal]

I don;t think you're allowed to evoke energy inside a creature's body. Certainly not with a level 1 spellNot with a 1st level spell, no, but high level magic has precedent for doing this. See Drown (Spell Compendium, Druid 6), and Decerebrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm) (Psion 7) for examples.

So if you wanted to research an Evocation SoD that generates a small amount of electricity inside the target's brain to fry it, that seems reasonable. Probably a 7th level spell or so, Fort or Will save to take 5d6 electricity instead, not a [Death] effect but requires the target to have a brain and not be immune to Electricity.

And I'd agree that Evocation's precedent for being able to manipulate (as opposed to create) energy is pretty weak - there are only a few spells that do so. Psychokinesis (XPH) does do it, but that one is more like a mix of Evocation+Transmutation.


Slightly tangentially, this totally reminds me of playing Mage. The things that the Matter sphere can do with some basic chemistry knowledge are rather impressive.

[The Viscount]

Have fun.

This will be a treat.
First, as several have said, evocation is concerned largely with blasts. When you start affecting creatures by manipulating their bodies, it becomes transmutation. D&D magic is classified based on effect and some degree of arbitrary "feel" not on any mechanism. Evokers are wizards that aren't interested in subtlety or fine manipulation for their evocation, they're going big and bold, because that's the feel of the school. To pursue this rabbit hole will lead nowhere productive, but I have some time so let's pursue this folly and recklessly endanger some catgirls.

Your discussion of manipulation of "energy" glosses over the fact that energy is categorized. The wizard's manipulation of large scale thermal energy for a fireball doesn't inherently mean they possess the ability to manipulate the very small but highly potent bonds of molecules. That's a jump you'll need some basis for.

Would converting all the ATP and ADP to AMP in the body impair muscular function? Of course, but you're going to have a lot of problems besides that. You're going to see a constellation of symptoms, the more concerning being neurological ones. It might be enough for a blackout, but it's difficult to abstract such a scenario.

Evocation has death effects, you're just not looking hard enough. Detonate is a flat death effect of course, as is the green effect of any of the prismatic spells. The petrification is also practically a death sentence, assuming you can crack the thing before someone can reverse it. Illusion spells capable of killing isn't that far fetched of an idea; if we're pursuing the science route they're stimulating the sensory system directly, and a massive enough stimulus can induce shock, which can lead to death (you get 2 saves after all, only death effect I know of like it). As for stopping the heart as a death effect, that exists, and its inventively called Stop Heart. Because it manipulates organs in a bad way it's a necro spell, not an evocation, because that's how spells are classified.

As for making acid out of air, you're studying biochemistry, you should know better than to say you can make nitric acid by just throwing O2 at N2 and saying "energy." The cost in making any useful quantity is almost certainly more efficiently spent setting the target on fire.

As for killing people by screwing with the buffer system, that's a misrepresentation of how the buffer system works. If you're going to turn bicarbonate into carbonic acid by cleaving off a hydrogen ion, you've just pushed the equation to one side, which you know will mean it pushes back to balanced. That's the entire point of the buffer system.

As for your discussion of buffs by fiddling with the nervous system, you've got a wrong presentation of neural physiology. I'm saying this as one student of the sciences to another in the hopes that you'd want to know where you're wrong. First, the electrochemical gradient of a neuron is made most importantly from a high internal potassium and a low internal sodium (though yes some calcium and chloride). Intracellular concentration of calcium is low, and calcium pumps are always working to keep it out. The alteration of charge along the neuron is accomplished by opening sodium channels. The big role of calcium is in the synapse to induce the release of neurotransmitter. The transport here is by passive channels, active pumps are for regeneration of the previous state.
The manipulation of this system is where things got really strange. When you say "If we speed up this process," which process are you referring to? Depolarization? Hyperpolarization? Release of neurotransmitter? Clearage of neurotransmitter from the synapse? And as for ability to react to stimulus increasing, not really. If you want somebody to respond to stimulus more powerfully, you're going to have to lower the threshold for the action potential to fire, and to do that you're going to need to tweak the number of sodium and potassium channels that exist on the neuron body. This will activate them more easily, but that's not going to necessarily be what you want. Easier activation won't mean faster movement, it will mean more dramatic response, and proper coordination requires the appropriate number of neurons to fire. Yes sure, motor neurons trigger calcium release in the muscle, but increasing that release will increase contraction strength, not speed. If you want to change the speed with which they're reacting to things, you're going to need to alter conduction velocity and good luck altering that with a simple change without causing problems.

By the way, do you like Flux Adept? It seems like you would like Flux Adept.

[eggynack]

I feel like a lot of people misread the tone of the OP on this one. Seemed pretty obviously tongue in cheek rather then claiming Evokers were super powerful in game with home brew...
Yeah, I kinda assumed it was humorously meant. I just really like coming up with new variations on the, "Basically any spell can be basically any school, if you flavor it right," argument, which I consider an amusing thing in and of itself. Not precisely playing along, but not really an all out fight for the supremacy of conjuration either.

[ayvango]

Just transmute rock to microblackhole. The damage from evaporating black hole would put any evoker in shame.

[ryu]

Just transmute rock to microblackhole. The damage from evaporating black hole would put any evoker in shame.

And leave you dead. And depending on the size of the hole anywhere from the continent to the entire planet being blown up/essentially sucked to oblivion.

[Mystral]

Sure, I can do that:

Evoker control energy.

Energy hold everything together.

You change energy, you can make change everything.

Make people lose energy and no move good.

Make people has lots of energy and move gooder.

Change people energy make them look different.

Make air acid.

Make blood acid.

Me go do homework now.

If DM not sure this good idea, tell him you smart and him dumb.

Bye Bye.

"A demon laughs at your puny desire to explain the ways of the planes and eats you. He's resistant to all your damage spells."

[ShurikVch]

To the OP: actually, a lot of things in game a kinda amazing "if you know some science"
Simple example: Elementals. I mean, all they are just inhabitants of space with infinite matter.... Wait, WHAT?
Infinite matter mean infinite mass, and infinite mass mean infinite gravity
To move at all in such conditions, Elementals should have Str score above infinity - which mean they are able to destroy anything with a single hit, carry unlimited load, and jump infinitely far
Oh, and to don't collapse into black hole from just being on their home plane, they should also be infinitely durable. What, you trying to hack that Earth Elemental with your greatsword? Forget it! You have better chance to cleave a neutron star in half!


One more Evocation spell - Greater Floating Disk - like normal Floating Disk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/floatingDisk.htm), except 4th level, don't need to stay withing 3' from surface, and have fly speed 20' (perfect)



You wanna waste how many feats on a tactic that's no longer useful past level 5?Eh... What's you mean?
Launch Bolt is kinda meh - unless you use custom bolts (which is a bit expensive), and normal crossbow can do the same (unless you believe in "bolt of any size")
Fell Drain Sonic Snap is deadly at lower levels (and can provide you with Wights)


Meant power word pain actually.PWP is strong, but also mind-affecting; Ooze, Undead, and Vermin are immune from the get-go
Fell Drain Magic Missile will work even at higher levels


Grease is much better battlefield control, and no enemy is gonna care about a wall that tiny for more than one round.Flying enemies are starting from below the CR 1, archers and casters are unimpeded by grease too
Eh, comparison between that spells reminding me about argument "what's better - apples or oranges"; both spells have it's uses and problems, but it's impossible to tell which one is strictly better - there are always will be situations when one is awesome and another is useless


There's a reason I said one step ABOVE hold portal as opposed to below. You want a better counter to clouds? Abrupt jaunt.Abrupt jaunt countering clouds in the same way hold portal does - i. e. NOT
Your average cloud is 20', Abrupt jaunt - 10'; even in theory, you should be in the center of the cloud, and know exactly in which direction to jaunt
Also, "You can't bring along any other creatures."


Just pointing out that scorching ray becomes quickly irrelevant Also literally anything with SR.Scorching Ray is good on low levels, but gets less impressive to mid-levels; Lesser Orb of Fire gets notably better to higher levels


Wall of salt. Also free money.IIRR, somebody recently said something about "no enemy is gonna care about a wall that tiny for more than one round" about 2nd-level spell which make indestructible barrier, but considering good 4th-level spell which make barrier of the same size and so brittle even geriatric Kobold may collapse it with a single hit?
Consistency, thy name is ryu!
And attempt to make "infinite money" with that spell may provoke DM to include "economic simulator" component into the game (or just demonstrate "massive DMG" rules IRL)


About several rounds before the archers run out of being alive.If you cast it as immediate action (assuming you even have immediate action at this round) - then it's only for one hit; if you cast it as a full round, then it's mean you don't do anything else for the whole round - which is a big deal for primary caster


You seem to have this odd idea that I consider people who can't cast spells party members rather than hired NPCs.Shouldn't it be in blue?
Anyway, unintelligently used BFC impedes not just non-casters, but CoDzilla and "ninja" too


I'd much rather the orb because the target is dead THIS turn.One is dead - it's friends will kill you!


Your proposed spell isn't even D&D.It's D&D
Lovecraftian D&D campaigns



0th: Sonic Snap
- Never used or needed. Also, acid splash.Acid resistance
Acid immunity
Natural 1 on touch attack :smalltongue:


2nd: Emerald Planes, Gust of Wind, Scorching Ray
- Dark way is more useful than emerald planes, because even though it needs to be anchored, it can at least form a wall, while an emerald plane cannot be placed within 5' of another one.
Dark way isn't impassable: "Creatures that cause the total weight on a dark way to exceed this limit fall through it as if it weren't there" (also, was only 2' wide until the Dec, 2005; Emerald Planes was printed at Sep, 2004)


3rd: Fireball, Wind Wall
- Fireball I've, get this, never used.Just because you never used it, it doesn't mean spell isn't worth to use at all

- Wind wall is similar. For all the complaints about how it shuts down archers, it only shuts down archers, which already are underpowered. I've done similar with a silent image.How exactly? Silent Image doesn't stop projectiles. Shadowcraft Mage? :smallamused:


4th: Desert Burial, Vortex of Teeth
- Bands of steel comes one level earlier and cannot be defeated by teleportation.Bands of Steel is a single-target spell with limited duration and can be defeated by Lesser Ironguard


5th: Mind Transfer, Wall of Force
- Call of Cthulhu is Call of Cthulhu, not D&D.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pziqFiuwMc8/UvACU_m0fiI/AAAAAAAAFME/zfbRBPEfpBg/s1600/Cthulhu.jpg

Plus magic jar.One level later, with limited duration, Necromancy


6th: Contingency
- A feat does it better.Assuming you, actually, have it


9th: Chain Contingency
- A feat does it better.OK
Still, Miracle is at 9th level too

[ryu]

To the OP: actually, a lot of things in game a kinda amazing "if you know some science"
Simple example: Elementals. I mean, all they are just inhabitants of space with infinite matter.... Wait, WHAT?
Infinite matter mean infinite mass, and infinite mass mean infinite gravity
To move at all in such conditions, Elementals should have Str score above infinity - which mean they are able to destroy anything with a single hit, carry unlimited load, and jump infinitely far
Oh, and to don't collapse into black hole from just being on their home plane, they should also be infinitely durable. What, you trying to hack that Earth Elemental with your greatsword? Forget it! You have better chance to cleave a neutron star in half!


One more Evocation spell - Greater Floating Disk - like normal Floating Disk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/floatingDisk.htm), except 4th level, don't need to stay withing 3' from surface, and have fly speed 20' (perfect)


Eh... What's you mean?
Launch Bolt is kinda meh - unless you use custom bolts (which is a bit expensive), and normal crossbow can do the same (unless you believe in "bolt of any size")
Fell Drain Sonic Snap is deadly at lower levels (and can provide you with Wights)

PWP is strong, but also mind-affecting; Ooze, Undead, and Vermin are immune from the get-go
Fell Drain Magic Missile will work even at higher levels

Flying enemies are starting from below the CR 1, archers and casters are unimpeded by grease too
Eh, comparison between that spells reminding me about argument "what's better - apples or oranges"; both spells have it's uses and problems, but it's impossible to tell which one is strictly better - there are always will be situations when one is awesome and another is useless

Abrupt jaunt countering clouds in the same way hold portal does - i. e. NOT
Your average cloud is 20', Abrupt jaunt - 10'; even in theory, you should be in the center of the cloud, and know exactly in which direction to jaunt
Also, "You can't bring along any other creatures."

Scorching Ray is good on low levels, but gets less impressive to mid-levels; Lesser Orb of Fire gets notably better to higher levels

IIRR, somebody recently said something about "no enemy is gonna care about a wall that tiny for more than one round" about 2nd-level spell which make indestructible barrier, but considering good 4th-level spell which make barrier of the same size and so brittle even geriatric Kobold may collapse it with a single hit?
Consistency, thy name is ryu!
And attempt to make "infinite money" with that spell may provoke DM to include "economic simulator" component into the game (or just demonstrate "massive DMG" rules IRL)

If you cast it as immediate action (assuming you even have immediate action at this round) - then it's only for one hit; if you cast it as a full round, then it's mean you don't do anything else for the whole round - which is a big deal for primary caster

Shouldn't it be in blue?
Anyway, unintelligently used BFC impedes not just non-casters, but CoDzilla and "ninja" too

One is dead - it's friends will kill you!

It's D&D


Acid resistance
Acid immunity
Natural 1 on touch attack :smalltongue:

Dark way isn't impassable: "Creatures that cause the total weight on a dark way to exceed this limit fall through it as if it weren't there" (also, was only 2' wide until the Dec, 2005; Emerald Planes was printed at Sep, 2004)

Just because you never used it, it doesn't mean spell isn't worth to use at all
How exactly? Silent Image doesn't stop projectiles. Shadowcraft Mage? :smallamused:

Bands of Steel is a single-target spell with limited duration and can be defeated by Lesser Ironguard

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pziqFiuwMc8/UvACU_m0fiI/AAAAAAAAFME/zfbRBPEfpBg/s1600/Cthulhu.jpg
One level later, with limited duration, Necromancy

Assuming you, actually, have it

OK
Still, Miracle is at 9th level too

I, do, in fact believe in bolts of whatever size you like. Spell says it can launch anything a crossbow could fire. It never states the crossbow has to be usable by you.

Yeah power word pain doesn't work on everything. You wanna what you do about things it doesn't work on? Use a different spell because magic missile is awful. And no it doesn't do especially well at higher levels because a fell drain spell can only do one negative level per target per round. You wanna hit something with five fell missile? Still just one negative level.

Are you joking? Grease routinely ends encounters at low levels, and still works as defense to any not flier even if it doesn't. Your plane spell can only defend, and will only stop a competent enemy for a round or two TOPS if it even does anything.

Get hit by cloud: immediate action jaunt, wait for your turn, jaunt again, take your turn. Congratulations you've countered a cloud without even spending non-immediate actions. Also who cares I can't bring people with me? My parties aren't dumb enough to stand shoulder to shoulder rubbing up against each other.

And STILL functions well at lower levels without becoming junk later.

Did you know that unlike your crummy spell, wall of salt can actually natively connect all 5 foot square segments? Make any shape desired? Capable of sealing passages rather than being explicitly disallowed from edges touch all those surfaces at casting? Can multi-layer the walls such that you have to break multiple walls even if every attack breaks a wall? Can DOUBLE the area you work with in exchange for half thickness? And can even be used to efficiently bridge gaps even if you didn't prepare a fly or teleport? No? You didn't know? Well now DO.

Having the OPTION to cast immediate means that even if the enemy wins initiative and starts bowing first, you've the ability to respond. And the full round is better because it works on things that aren't arrows, and actively punishes the use of ranged attacks rather than just making them useless. Also no obscure wind wall piercing enhancement for your bow is getting through THIS spell.

So cast your BFC properly and coordinate properly with your party. You know, like a competent person?

Again if there's more than one you use relevant BFC.

Yeah. Care to guess what percentage of campaigns are lovecraftian? The hint is not goddamn many.

[eggynack]

Also no obscure wind wall piercing enhancement for your bow is getting through THIS spell.
Still not entirely convinced that the energy bow, assuming that's what you're referring to, pierces a wind wall. It arguably should, but I think there's RAW support for the opposing notion.

[ryu]

Still not entirely convinced that the energy bow, assuming that's what you're referring to, pierces a wind wall. It arguably should, but I think there's RAW support for the opposing notion.

It debatably doesn't that's true. You know what spell there's no debate it can't pierce? Yeah. I thought so.

[eggynack]

It debatably doesn't that's true. You know what spell there's no debate it can't pierce? Yeah. I thought so.
Friendly fire is pretty amazing, no disputing that.

[ryu]

Friendly fire is pretty amazing, no disputing that.

Which is precisely why I brought that up in an argument about which spell was better, yes. Just pointing out that if there's even a reasonable chance your spell designed specifically to block arrows does nothing against some kinds of arrows it's NOT even remotely comparable to its much better big bro from a better school. Also other reasons.

[lord_khaine]

"A demon laughs at your puny desire to explain the ways of the planes and eats you. He's resistant to all your damage spells."

It only takes a single feat to ignore elemental resistance though.


Scorching Ray is good on low levels, but gets less impressive to mid-levels; Lesser Orb of Fire gets notably better to higher levels

Its also kinda good in the middle levels, especially in situations where you have limited access to metamagic reducers. At level 7 empowered scorching rays deals rather brutal damage.


Assuming you, actually, have it

A feat doing it better is also a bad argument, when said feat is almost universally consideret broken to a degree where a lot of people dont play with it.

In the end though, Evocations biggest problem is not that its theme is weak, it is that other schools have been allowed to steal from its theme. I mean, if we had some spell called.. for example Force crush, that did 1d10/level fort half, then we would not have people complaining about evocation being weak, we would have complaints about save-and-die spells.

[Zanos]

If you want somebody to respond to stimulus more powerfully, you're going to have to lower the threshold for the action potential to fire, and to do that you're going to need to tweak the number of sodium and potassium channels that exist on the neuron body. This will activate them more easily, but that's not going to necessarily be what you want. Easier activation won't mean faster movement, it will mean more dramatic response, and proper coordination requires the appropriate number of neurons to fire.
I took a neurochemistry course(so I am not an expert) and everything you've said seems right, but I'm pretty sure that making action potentials fire at lower thresholds and/or tweaking the ion gradient across the board is just going to give someone a seizure. Neuron chemistry is delicate.


3rd: Fireball
- Fireball I've, get this, never used.
I hate this hivemind that damage is bad. A CR = Party Level encounter with 4 monsters has all of them at 4 under the parties level. At level 5, 4 CR 2 creatures are CR 6, which is actually above the parties CR. A CR 2 monster has 20 health on average. A 5d6 fireball stands a pretty good chance of straight up killing an entire encounter even when CR > APL as long as it's made up of multiple creatures. Dead is the best BFC effect.

At the level fireball stops scaling it's doing 10d6 and CR 6 monsters have 70 health on average. So that isn't great, but 2 fireballs will kill the encounter on average. 2 3rd level spells for an entire encounter is pretty good. Yeah they could make their saves, but reflex doesn't tend to be super high anyway. I still call that a good value.

For the record though, yes Evocation is probably the weakest school of magic barring goofy lore breaking homebrew. But it's still a school of magic. It has gems, stinkers, and mediocre spells. You could easily make a quite good caster with only Evocation spells.

[ryu]

I took a neurochemistry course(so I am not an expert) and everything you've said seems right, but I'm pretty sure that making action potentials fire at lower thresholds and/or tweaking the ion gradient across the board is just going to give someone a seizure. Neuron chemistry is delicate.


I hate this hivemind that damage is bad. A CR = Party Level encounter with 4 monsters has all of them at 4 under the parties level. At level 5, 4 CR 2 creatures are CR 6, which is actually above the parties CR. A CR 2 monster has 20 health on average. A 5d6 fireball stands a pretty good chance of straight up killing an entire encounter even when CR > APL as long as it's made up of multiple creatures. Dead is the best BFC effect.

At the level fireball stops scaling it's doing 10d6 and CR 6 monsters have 70 health on average. So that isn't great, but 2 fireballs will kill the encounter on average. 2 3rd level spells for an entire encounter is pretty good. Yeah they could make their saves, but reflex doesn't tend to be super high anyway. I still call that a good value.

For the record though, yes Evocation is probably the weakest school of magic barring goofy lore breaking homebrew. But it's still a school of magic. It has gems, stinkers, and mediocre spells. You could easily make a quite good caster with only Evocation spells.

Actually pretty sure the case he was make wasn't that all damage deal was bad. He was saying that particular spell was too mediocre for his attention. Further a lot of spells look good if you specifically design encounters to their strengths. Such unusual circumstances is usually fairly poor, but lets assume we ARE working with a bunch of mooks. You know what I want? Minions. Lots of minions. They don't even have to be good minions. Just take hits and retaliate. The minions can even be created with spells outside that days allotment. Also the mooks no longer have to stand shoulder to shoulder in a tight clump.

[Deophaun]

To the OP: actually, a lot of things in game a kinda amazing "if you know some science"
Simple example: Elementals. I mean, all they are just inhabitants of space with infinite matter.... Wait, WHAT?
Infinite matter mean infinite mass, and infinite mass mean infinite gravity
Infinite gravity distributed across an infinite plane. The vectors cancel out. It's like being at the center of a planet whereever you go, without all the pressure of billions of trillions of tons of rock crushing down on you.

Acid resistance
Acid immunity
Natural 1 on touch attack :smalltongue:
Assuming you, actually, have it.

Also
Sonic resistance
Sonic immunity
Spell resistance


Dark way isn't impassable: "Creatures that cause the total weight on a dark way to exceed this limit fall through it as if it weren't there"
Assuming you, actually, have it.

Also, Emerald planes have half the weight limit and are completely passable without bothering unless you're dealing with a 5'-wide passage.

(also, was only 2' wide until the Dec, 2005; Emerald Planes was printed at Sep, 2004)
I'll keep that in mind next time I schedule a game in the past.

Just because you never used it, it doesn't mean spell isn't worth to use at all
Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, it does mean that you can go without. There's no problem where fireball is the only optimal solution, and it's not exactly versatile in its applications.

How exactly? Silent Image doesn't stop projectiles. Shadowcraft Mage? :smallamused:
Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, archers have a big problem when they cannot see where their opponents are.

Bands of Steel is a single-target spell with limited duration and can be defeated by Lesser Ironguard
Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, the limited duration is more than enough to apply the dead condition, and so what if it's defeated by a spell no one prepares?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pziqFiuwMc8/UvACU_m0fiI/AAAAAAAAFME/zfbRBPEfpBg/s1600/Cthulhu.jpg
Yes.

One level later, with limited duration, Necromancy
No, it's not one level later. Your spell has a level of null, because it doesn't exist in 3.5. There's no level for it to be later to.

I can't even "Assuming you, actually, have it" this one.

Assuming you, actually, have it
Hold on, I'm gonna go back and include this as part of my rejoinders to every one of your spells to show what a ridiculous argument it is!


OK
Still, Miracle is at 9th level too
And that's basically where we are at with the Evocation school: there's miracle at 9th.

Assuming you, actually, have it.


I hate this hivemind that damage is bad. A CR = Party Level encounter with 4 monsters has all of them at 4 under the parties level. At level 5, 4 CR 2 creatures are CR 6, which is actually above the parties CR. A CR 2 monster has 20 health on average. A 5d6 fireball stands a pretty good chance of straight up killing an entire encounter even when CR > APL as long as it's made up of multiple creatures. Dead is the best BFC effect.
The quality of the encounter matters more than its CR. I've never been in an encounter where "being able to easily end it with a fireball" wasn't a phrase three letters too long.

[ryu]

Infinite gravity distributed across an infinite plane. The vectors cancel out. It's like being at the center of a planet whereever you go, without all the pressure of billions of trillions of tons of rock crushing down on you.

Assuming you, actually, have it.

Also
Sonic resistance
Sonic immunity
Spell resistance


Assuming you, actually, have it.

Also, Emerald planes have half the weight limit and are completely passable without bothering unless you're dealing with a 5'-wide passage.

I'll keep that in mind next time I schedule a game in the past.

Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, it does mean that you can go without. There's no problem where fireball is the only optimal solution, and it's not exactly versatile in its applications.

Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, archers have a big problem when they cannot see where their opponents are.

Assuming you, actually, have it

Also, the limited duration is more than enough to apply the dead condition, and so what if it's defeated by a spell no one prepares?

Yes.

No, it's not one level later. Your spell has a level of null, because it doesn't exist in 3.5. There's no level for it to be later to.

I can't even "Assuming you, actually, have it" this one.

Hold on, I'm gonna go back and include this as part of my rejoinders to every one of your spells to show what a ridiculous argument it is!


And that's basically where we are at with the Evocation school: there's miracle at 9th.

Assuming you, actually, have it.


The quality of the encounter matters more than its CR. I've never been in an encounter where "being able to easily end it with a fireball" was a phrase three letters too long.

Okay points. High five?

[ShurikVch]

I, do, in fact believe in bolts of whatever size you like. Spell says it can launch anything a crossbow could fire. It never states the crossbow has to be usable by you.Firstly, using real bolts may be a bit expensive on lower levels, so no free Colossal-sized bolts to you
And secondly, RAW says: "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll"; there are penalties for Inappropriately Sized Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize); for Medium-sized caster it will be -6 (assuming Gargantuan bolt), and for Small-sized - -8; excluding usage of True Strike - are you sure you will hit anyone at all?


Yeah power word pain doesn't work on everything. You wanna what you do about things it doesn't work on? Use a different spell because magic missile is awful. And no it doesn't do especially well at higher levels because a fell drain spell can only do one negative level per target per round. You wanna hit something with five fell missile? Still just one negative level.Proof?


Are you joking? Grease routinely ends encounters at low levels, and still works as defense to any not flier even if it doesn't. Your plane spell can only defend, and will only stop a competent enemy for a round or two TOPS if it even does anything.Small Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) is only CR 1, so you can meet group of them at the very 1st level
Once again - Grease doesn't do jack against ranged attacks
But it's not even the worst parts: the same Grease which keeps enemies from you - also keep you from enemies! No way in Baator somebody have Balance 5 as a 1st-level character! Thus, your party can't get to enemies until the Grease expires, and at that point - once again, why you cast it at all? :smallamused:


Get hit by cloud: immediate action jauntAssuming you aren't rammed blindly into wall, tree, or enemy, and not appeared above some pit/trap/hazard...
wait for your turnWhile taking DoT or desperately rolling saves...

Also who cares I can't bring people with me? My parties aren't dumb enough to stand shoulder to shoulder rubbing up against each other.How sensitive of you!
Now I see why it wasn't blue!
But really, my point was slightly different: what if the only way plugged by cloud which isn't dispersing over time?
So, to get in, you would need either teleport (assuming you can, and assuming your point of destination really cloud-free), just walk in (while suffering whatever effects the cloud causing), or use Gust of Wind (but you can't - you banned Evocation :smalltongue:)
Or how about the dungeon level which is completely filled with Acid Fog? How you will deal with it?


Did you know that unlike your crummy spell, wall of salt can actually natively connect all 5 foot square segments? Make any shape desired?It would be more impressive if it wasn't so brittle and so small at lower levels; yes, at higher levels it get better, but again - Wall of Stone can do all the same things, and just one level higher (and much more sturdy)

Capable of sealing passages rather than being explicitly disallowed from edges touch all those surfaces at casting?It would be more impressive if salt was more durable; and while Emerald Planes can't really touch another surface, they still can block narrow enough passages - if there are just a few inches between the plane and wall

Can multi-layer the walls such that you have to break multiple walls even if every attack breaks a wall? Can DOUBLE the area you work with in exchange for half thickness?By multi-layer you diminishing the actual blocked area, by doubling the area - simplifying the wall's destruction; but the main problem is the same as with Grease spell - the same wall which separating you from enemies also separating enemies from you; it may be good if you attempting to escape, or just need some breathing room, but what if you actually need to go ahead? At least Grease have decency to disappear - you will need do break your own Wall (while risking to get into traps or readied attacks)
But you know what - if you like BFC walls of 4th level so much - Evocation have 'em too: Wall of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm).

And can even be used to efficiently bridge gaps even if you didn't prepare a fly or teleport?What's it's maximal weight?


Having the OPTION to cast immediate means that even if the enemy wins initiative and starts bowing first, you've the ability to respond. And the full round is better because it works on things that aren't arrows, and actively punishes the use of ranged attacks rather than just making them useless.Note: "toward another target within 30 feet"
What's the only creatures withing 30' of you is your friends? Looks like you punishing your friends for you being attacked from range...
Oh, wait...
My parties aren't dumb enough to stand shoulder to shoulder rubbing up against each other.Which mean the only creature withing 30' of you is you, and Friendly Fire do big fat nothing!

[ryu]

Firstly, using real bolts may be a bit expensive on lower levels, so no free Colossal-sized bolts to you
And secondly, RAW says: "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll"; there are penalties for Inappropriately Sized Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize); for Medium-sized caster it will be -6 (assuming Gargantuan bolt), and for Small-sized - -8; excluding usage of True Strike - are you sure you will hit anyone at all?

Proof?

Small Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) is only CR 1, so you can meat group of them at the very 1st level
Once again - Grease doesn't do jack against ranged attacks
But it's not even the worst parts: the same Grease which keeps enemies from you - also keep you from enemies! No way in Baator somebody have Balance 5 as a 1st-level character! Thus, your party can't get to enemies until the Grease expires, and at that point - once again, why you cast it at all? :smallamused:

Assuming you aren't rammed blindly into wall, tree, or enemy, and not appeared above some pit/trap/hazard...While taking DoT or desperately rolling saves...
How sensitive of you!
Now I see why it wasn't blue!
But really, my point was slightly different: what if the only way plugged by cloud which isn't dispersing over time?
So, to get in, you would need either teleport (assuming you can, and assuming your point of destination really cloud-free), just walk in (while suffering whatever effects the cloud causing), or use Gust of Wind (but you can't - you banned Evocation :smalltongue:)
Or how about the dungeon level which is completely filled with Acid Fog? How you will deal with it?

It would be more impressive if it wasn't so brittle and so small at lower levels; yes, at higher levels it get better, but again - Wall of Stone can do all the same things, and just one level higher (and much more sturdy)
It would be more impressive if salt was more durable; and while Emerald Planes can't really touch another surface, they still can block narrow enough passages - if there are just a few inches between the plane and wall
By multi-layer you diminishing the actual blocked area, by doubling the area - simplifying the wall's destruction; but the main problem is the same as with Grease spell - the same wall which separating you from enemies also separating enemies from you; it may be good if you attempting to escape, or just need some breathing room, but what if you actually need to go ahead? At least Grease have decency to disappear - you will need do break your own Wall (while risking to get into traps or readied attacks)
But you know what - if you like BFC walls of 4th level so much - Evocation have 'em too: Wall of Ice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfIce.htm).
What's it's maximal weight?

Note: "toward another target within 30 feet"
What's the only creatures withing 30' of you is your friends? Looks like you punishing your friends for you being attacked from range...
Oh, wait...Which mean the only creature withing 30' of you is you, and Friendly Fire do big fat nothing!

Tell me have you read fell drain? It doesn't say it imbues a creature hit by the spell negative levels equivalent to the number of times it was hit. It said it inflicts A negative level, as in one, to any target hit by the spell.

Who needs to ''get to'' the enemies? Did we not just go over my general distaste for melee classes? Even then reach weapons boy. It's easy.

I see you seem to think D&D characters, much less wizards with more int than literally any human being that has ever lived on this planet, are the sort of mental cripples that can't remember the general terrain of the area they're in. Alternatively you're just trying to come up with uses for a bad spell and I think that's adorable. Further, an entire floor of a dungeon covered in fog eh? I'd wait approximately a minute because fog has a duration measured in ROUNDS which you'd know if you bothered to read.

Did you know that every time you attack the wall of salt that's a standard action used regardless of how easily that wall section fell? plus move actions if I spaced barriers well? or that you can shape them with a hole big enough for line of effect ranged attacks but not enough to move through to screw melee? Or that being so easily broken when the fight's over is actually CONVENIENT? Or that you don't get a reflex save to make wall of salt automatically FAIL TO FORM just for being adjacent the target area? You aren't winning the wall fight. You think you are, but you're not.

Also maximum weight on wall of salt is unlisted as a factor, therefore NO limit.

Toward another TARGET within 30 feet. Not creature. Target. I can hit whatever square or inanimate object I please. I also get to just hit an enemy if they were close, but that's just gravy on top of all the other reasons that friendly fire is great while wind wall blows goats for pocket change.

[ShurikVch]

Tell me have you read fell drain? It doesn't say it imbues a creature hit by the spell negative levels equivalent to the number of times it was hit. It said it inflicts A negative level, as in one, to any target hit by the spell.Yes.
So what?
Magic Missile hit it, than hit again, and again, and again...


Who needs to ''get to'' the enemies? Did we not just go over my general distaste for melee classes?We're talking about first levels there; our caster likely have less spell slots than fingers, so it's not like he have a lot of spells for blasting from afar
Also, Evocation is banned, so with what, exactly, you going to blast 'em? Note: range of Lesser Orb of Fire at 3rd level is 30'; range increment of Sling is 50' (at the very 1st level)
And summoned creatures are in risk of expiring before getting anywhere near the enemies

Even then reach weapons boy. It's easy.It's assuming enemies conveniently standing exactly at the other edge of Grease rather than far further...


I see you seem to think D&D characters, much less wizards with more int than literally any human being that has ever lived on this planet, are the sort of mental cripples that can't remember the general terrain of the area they're in. Alternatively you're just trying to come up with uses for a bad spell and I think that's adorable.It's easy to justify why caster know the place if it's something he actually familiar with; if he never was there before, how can he know what's there beyond the sight range? There is such thing as preparedness, and there is such thing as hand-waving (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-waving) - don't mix them


Further, an entire floor of a dungeon covered in fog eh? I'd wait approximately a minute because fog has a duration measured in ROUNDS which you'd know if you bothered to read.Maybe whoever have enough power to fog the floor also have enough power to make it not go away any time soon?
Or, maybe, acid is "natural" rather than "magical" and just acts like Acid Fog?
For less extreme examples - Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm).


Did you know that every time you attack the wall of salt that's a standard action used regardless of how easily that wall section fell?Yes - so what?
Unless enemies are somehow limited on time - they can do it just fine
Don't forget - any turn when they attacking the Wall is also the turn of you not attacking them


or that you can shape them with a hole big enough for line of effect ranged attacks but not enough to move through to screw melee?Honestly, I missed such application
However, it's once again relying on assumption of monsters actively attacking you rather than guarding the passage - because in that case they just need to stay out of the area of fire, and you can't even walk ahead without breaking your own Wall
Also, WoS is squishy enough to collapse from just ranged attacks...

Or that being so easily broken when the fight's over is actually CONVENIENT?This advantage is just the extension of it's disadvantages

Or that you don't get a reflex save to make wall of salt automatically FAIL TO FORM just for being adjacent the target area?Yes, another good point
Still, it very likely there will be some place which is both fit for the Wall of Ice and don't have anybody to make the Reflex save

Also maximum weight on wall of salt is unlisted as a factor, therefore NO limit.That is - until the DM don't disagreed with you; obscure point there is a risk factor rather than advantage




Infinite gravity distributed across an infinite plane. The vectors cancel out.It's not how gravity works

It's like being at the center of a planet whereever you go, without all the pressure of billions of trillions of tons of rock crushing down on you.No, you would be crushed by your own super-heavy parietal bones which will fall into abdominal cavity


Assuming you, actually, have it.Have... what? :smalltongue:

Also
Sonic resistance
Sonic immunityVanishingly rare

Spell resistanceWhile widespread in-game, usually - not at lower levels


Assuming you, actually, have it.Have... what? :smalltongue:

Also, Emerald planes have half the weight limitIt's incorrect - there is no weight limit


Assuming you, actually, have itHave... what? :smalltongue:

Also, archers have a big problem when they cannot see where their opponents are.And attacking a square is a non-option now?


Assuming you, actually, have itHave... what? :smalltongue:


Also, the limited duration is more than enough to apply the dead conditionAssuming enemy don't put dead condition on you first: Bands of Steel prevent movement, not attacks or anything else

and so what if it's defeated by a spell no one prepares?You said Desert Burial can be defeated by teleportation - like it's so easy to get access to teleportation without somatic components around 7th level (Abrupt Jaunt aside)
I mentioned fairly popular defensive spell which protecting from any non-magical metal


No, it's not one level later. Your spell has a level of null, because it doesn't exist in 3.5. There's no level for it to be later to.3.5 is just an add-in to 3.0; all what existed in 3.0 - also exists in 3.5 - unless RAW somewhere says it isn't - like with Scry skill


Hold on, I'm gonna go back and include this as part of my rejoinders to every one of your spells to show what a ridiculous argument it is!Yes - assuming you actually have it.
Craft Contingent Spell isn't a class feature - it's a feat
You can very easily to don't have it
Are you never faced knee-jerk DM ban of Craft Contingent Spell "because it's broken"?
What? No? Not a once?
I'm glad for you.
I'm really really glad for you
Also, whole Complete Arcane may be unavailable
What if the game is "Core-only", "Core+campaign", or "Core+setting"? Where will be your orbs, dark way, friendly fire, and Craft Contingent Spell? While Evocation lost almost nothing (sans the 4th-level)
Also, Contingency is a whole level earlier than Craft Contingent Spell

[ryu]

So half your post is homebrew, access to excessive amounts of high level XP costing effects used dumbly, more homebrew, not realizing that you can have your wall of salt literally intersecting the square of your target enemy with little half inch thick by full inch wide bars of salt to limit move with a checkerboard of foot wide holes to allow constant ranged punishment, or that time the enemy is attacking your wall is time you could be buffing, summoning, debuffing, or otherwise just hurting them, and you still expect me to take you seriously? Really? Like lacking even the most basic knowledge of your surrounding despite the fact that unless you were just randomly teleported somewhere you've never been you likely traveled there looking around the whole time? Just accept you've lost already and save some dignity.

[ShurikVch]

access to excessive amounts of high level XP costing effects used dumblyIt's well known fact - monsters in the dungeons don't have enough WBL to allow the magical traps in the very same dungeons
Why the difference now?


not realizing that you can have your wall of salt literally intersecting the square of your target enemy with little half inch thick by full inch wide bars of salt to limit moveDestroyed with a single attack

with a checkerboard of foot wide holes to allow constant ranged punishmentShield to the hole = total cover :smallamused:

or that time the enemy is attacking your wall is time you could be buffing, summoning, debuffing, or otherwise just hurting themNuh-huh!
If enemies are out of LoE, or just out of range - then you have zero ways to "debuffing, or otherwise just hurting them."
Most of buffs, debuffs, and summons are relatively short-lived - so stalling is a winning strategy for monsters, not party
And note: we are talking about only the most common enemies - Earth Elemental can go right through the Wall, Shadow is incorporeal, and some sneaker can just squeeze through one of those 1' holes and shiv the caster

Like lacking even the most basic knowledge of your surrounding despite the fact that unless you were just randomly teleported somewhere you've never been you likely traveled there looking around the whole time?If he never was there in the whole life, than how the heck he can even know the layout? Darkness and fog may be rather limiting for sight range, and traps tend to be rather unnoticeable (that's the point), so, please - stop the hand-waving

[Deophaun]

It's not how gravity works
You are bad at science.

No, you would be crushed by your own super-heavy parietal bones which will fall into abdominal cavity
No. If you have infinite mass pulling at every part of your body from infinite directions, the vectors cancel out. It's what makes the Dyson sphere (well, Dyson swarm) work instead of collapsing in on its star under its own mass. It's no different than being in zero gravity.

Have... what? :smalltongue:
Reading comprehension.

Vanishingly rare
While widespread in-game, usually - not at lower levels
So what? The only reason to ever say "OMG sonic snap is so good you will kick yourself if you ban evocation!" is if you're using it with metamagic, which means it becomes relevant at what, five, maybe, and then at the cost of third level spells. So, acid splash.

It's incorrect - there is no weight limit
Sorry, I got my information from the wrong source. It's still a crap spell.

And attacking a square is a non-option now?
When you have twenty squares to choose from, that's a 97.5% miss chance. This isn't like attacking a square in melee.

Assuming enemy don't put dead condition on you first: Bands of Steel prevent movement, not attacks or anything else
You said Desert Burial can be defeated by teleportation - like it's so easy to get access to teleportation without somatic components around 7th level (Abrupt Jaunt aside)
Anklet of translocation. Dirt. Cheap.

I mentioned fairly popular defensive spell which protecting from any non-magical metal
No, you didn't. Because it's non-magical metal. It's a crap spell. And it doesn't even protect you from the spell, because the only metal is in the name, not the effect.

3.5 is just an add-in to 3.0; all what existed in 3.0 - also exists in 3.5 - unless RAW somewhere says it isn't - like with Scry skill
Call of Cthulhu is not 3.0. It's Call of Cthulhu. It's. A. Different. Game.

Yes - assuming you actually have it.
Craft Contingent Spell isn't a class feature - it's a feat
You can very easily to don't have it
Are you never faced knee-jerk DM ban of Craft Contingent Spell "because it's broken"?
What? No? Not a once?
I'm glad for you.
I'm really really glad for you
All the same can be said for contingency

Also, whole Complete Arcane may be unavailable
Says the one dumpster diving Dragon content.

What if the game is "Core-only", "Core+campaign", or "Core+setting"? Where will be your orbs, dark way, friendly fire, and Craft Contingent Spell? While Evocation lost almost nothing (sans the 4th-level)
You cannot lose what you never had.

At this point I'm half expecting you to post an evocation build that winds up being a psionic transmuter with a half-dozen terrible combos.

[ryu]

It's well known fact - monsters in the dungeons don't have enough WBL to allow the magical traps in the very same dungeons
Why the difference now?

Destroyed with a single attack
Shield to the hole = total cover :smallamused:
Nuh-huh!
If enemies are out of LoE, or just out of range - then you have zero ways to "debuffing, or otherwise just hurting them."
Most of buffs, debuffs, and summons are relatively short-lived - so stalling is a winning strategy for monsters, not party
And note: we are talking about only the most common enemies - Earth Elemental can go right through the Wall, Shadow is incorporeal, and some sneaker can just squeeze through one of those 1' holes and shiv the caster
If he never was there in the whole life, than how the heck he can even know the layout? Darkness and fog may be rather limiting for sight range, and traps tend to be rather unnoticeable (that's the point), so, please - stop the hand-waving

Wrong. Any dungeon is built, controlled, and lived in by actually somewhat powerful things. You don't start the game going through dungeons. You start the game protecting villages from local dangers like goblins, native fauna, bandits and the like. Perhaps the odd hunt for a dangerous beast or something. You don't get an honest to goodness dungeon, as in a multi-floor sprawling complex of death, hidden traps, and gods only know what unspeakable horrors until at least mid levels. You might get some time with a smaller but still fortified building before then, but it's no dungeon.

Yeah every single one of the one foot apart layers preventing you from moving falls in one attack. What of it? You'll still be stuck a while.

Ah AH which one of the few dozen holes do you plan to cover with your little shield. I'm SURE it will help defend you so well. Considering the fight already started you're neither out of range nor, as we've just established out of line of effect.

Most buffs and debuffs are either immediately tide turning if actually used or long term. Nice try.

And you think I'd bother to use walls of any kind against enemies specifically designed to mess with walls? Do you even strategy?

For that matter have you ever moved around outside or in most buildings for that matter? Ever learn the basic skill of taking note of your immediate surroundings such that you've a general understanding of where things are? You know one of those basic facets of things every man woman and child learns from a young age so they don't constantly walk into posts, or into active traffic? No you don't suddenly not know the general terrain around you just because someone dropped a cloud. It limits your movement and blocks line of sight. Nothing more.

[ShurikVch]

You are bad at science.OK, I dare you: show me!
Give me links to smart science books which could prove your words

No. If you have infinite mass pulling at every part of your body from infinite directions, the vectors cancel out.Wrong - infinitely strong vectors from infinite directions would rip you apart like overblown balloon

It's what makes the Dyson sphere (well, Dyson swarm) work instead of collapsing in on its star under its own mass. It's no different than being in zero gravity.Dyson sphere is a Sci-fi construct which can't be accomplished IRL, because it will inevitably collapse on itself
While Dyson swarm is more viable - how the heck it's relevant there?


Anklet of translocation. Dirt. Cheap.And how many monsters actually have it?


No, you didn't. Because it's non-magical metal. It's a crap spell.At lower levels, most of attacks are physical, and most of weapons are at least partially metallic; and magical weapon is too expensive - anybody below the 8th level likely wouldn't have it

And it doesn't even protect you from the spell, because the only metal is in the name, not the effect.Proof, please!


Call of Cthulhu is not 3.0. It's Call of Cthulhu. It's. A. Different. Game.While Call of Cthulhu is, indeed, a different game, official adaptation from the appendix is a definitely 3.0


Says the one dumpster diving Dragon content.Oh, come on - I used like 2 spells from the Dragon in the whole list... :smallsigh:

[ryu]

Yeah on a list of less than 20.

[Deophaun]

OK, I dare you: show me!
Give me links to smart science books which could prove your words
OK. Here (https://www.amazon.com/Physics-I-Dummies-Steven-Holzner/dp/1119293596/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1489790108&sr=8-3&keywords=introduction+to+physics).

Wrong - infinitely strong vectors from infinite directions would rip you apart like overblown balloon
If they were infinitely strong horses pulling at you, sure. But this is gravity, which acts on each atom at the same time. An infinitely strong gravitational pull on all of you won't hurt you.

Dyson sphere is a Sci-fi construct which can't be accomplished IRL, because it will inevitably collapse on itself
No, it won't collapse in on itself. It's just unstable in orbit around the star, eventually colliding with it.

While Dyson swarm is more viable - how the heck it's relevant there?
Remember that time in physics class when the teacher asked what the gravitational pull of a sphere would be if you were inside it?

Oh, wait, you don't. That's the problem.

And how many monsters actually have it?
Creatures in a dungeon probably don't.

Oh wait, stone floors. Darn!

Proof, please!
Read the spell. How about you give me proof in the spell description that says it actually creates metal bands. Does it say "Effect: bands made of metal?"

And then there's the fact that it's a fricken spell. Saying that a spell is not magical is nonsense.

Do you know what proof is?

While Call of Cthulhu is, indeed, a different game
Then stop.

Oh, come on - I used like 2 spells from the Dragon in the whole list... :smallsigh:
Oh, come on - I used like 1 feat. :smallsigh:

[The Viscount]

I took a neurochemistry course(so I am not an expert) and everything you've said seems right, but I'm pretty sure that making action potentials fire at lower thresholds and/or tweaking the ion gradient across the board is just going to give someone a seizure. Neuron chemistry is delicate.

For the record though, yes Evocation is probably the weakest school of magic barring goofy lore breaking homebrew. But it's still a school of magic. It has gems, stinkers, and mediocre spells. You could easily make a quite good caster with only Evocation spells.

Oh if you made all your neurons fire too easily you would most definitely get seizures. I was assuming for this argument we'd be somewhat targeted, but you're right, even then you're at risk for some problems. My mistake there.

Hear hear for that second part. While I hold that enchantment is a strong contender because so much of it is useless against a 1st level spell and a lot of monsters, evocation definitely gets a bad rap it does not deserve. Warmage, a class with almost only evocation spells from 2 books still is a competent and valuable member of the party, a solid T3.

[ryu]

Oh if you made all your neurons fire too easily you would most definitely get seizures. I was assuming for this argument we'd be somewhat targeted, but you're right, even then you're at risk for some problems. My mistake there.

Hear hear for that second part. While I hold that enchantment is a strong contender because so much of it is useless against a 1st level spell and a lot of monsters, evocation definitely gets a bad rap it does not deserve. Warmage, a class with almost only evocation spells from 2 books still is a competent and valuable member of the party, a solid T3.

I mean it's still the second weakest school of magic. It can hit tier 3 natively partially because of rare not blasty things, and the fact that even the bottom of the wizard's casting barrel is still better than most mundanes.

[Deophaun]

Hear hear for that second part. While I hold that enchantment is a strong contender because so much of it is useless against a 1st level spell and a lot of monsters, evocation definitely gets a bad rap it does not deserve. Warmage, a class with almost only evocation spells from 2 books still is a competent and valuable member of the party, a solid T3.
It is not that evocation is bad or that it cannot be the basis for an effective character, it's that it's good at doing what many other classes are already good at. That's wasted potential to me; my instinct is always to fill holes, not shovel more dirt on holes already filled.

[ShurikVch]

OK. Here (https://www.amazon.com/Physics-I-Dummies-Steven-Holzner/dp/1119293596/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1489790108&sr=8-3&keywords=introduction+to+physics).Physics for dummies?
This is your textbook?
How apt... :smallamused:


No, it won't collapse in on itself. It's just unstable in orbit around the star, eventually colliding with it.It will collapse because of it's own gravity - centrifugal force may compensate on "equator", but will be negligible on "poles", thus incapable to prevent the collapse


Remember that time in physics class when the teacher asked what the gravitational pull of a sphere would be if you were inside it?Except it's completely useless now, because Elemental Planes aren't spherical, and the shell theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_theorem) doesn't works for non-spherical objects.

[Deophaun]

Physics for dummies?
This is your textbook?
How apt... :smallamused:
Hey, I've got to start you somewhere. Baby steps.

Anyway, it's cute that you think someone who jumps out of a plane immediately has to worry about sprains or dislocations from the force of gravity pulling on his legs.

[ShurikVch]

Hey, I've got to start you somewhere. Baby steps.Thank you very much, but my physics is pretty OK (unlike, apparently, yours) - I'm physics laboratory worker in a night school
One simple fact you don't pointed me to schoolbook, encyclopedia, or some obvious internet link (like Wikipedia or one of numerous science-specific forums) tell volumes about you


Anyway, it's cute that you think someone who jumps out of a plane immediately has to worry about sprains or dislocations from the force of gravity pulling on his legs.Because pull strength isn't constant; the higher you are - the weaker it is; in theory, if you jump out high enough, you wouldn't fall at all - satellites are, usually, don't fall

EDIT: also, if gravity doesn't cause "sprains or dislocations" on the surface, then why the heck it suddenly should do it in the air?

[Vaz]

Anyone who doesn't believe in evocation clearly doesn't miracle for fun and profit.

[ryu]

Anyone who doesn't believe in evocation clearly doesn't miracle for fun and profit.

That's not even a wizard spell meaning you're either a cleric or a shenanigans craft mage. Even as a shenanigans craft mage I'd say it's the strength of the shenanigans craft mage rather than evocation.

[Deophaun]

Because pull strength isn't constant; the higher you are - the weaker it is;
Again, you know nothing about gravity: you think it's the strength that matters.

You want a wiki article, fine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification

That will explain what it takes for gravity to actually tear you apart.

Good luck with the night school.

[ShurikVch]

Again, you know nothing about gravityApparently still more than you: you asking silly questions and referring to unrelated facts

you think it's the strength that matters.OK, is power doesn't matter, then what mater


You want a wiki article, fine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification

That will explain what it takes for gravity to actually tear you apart.Do you even reading what's you linking?
For massive bodies with a surface, the tensile force is largest near the surface
It's exactly as I said!

[Vaz]

That's not even a wizard spell meaning you're either a cleric or a shenanigans craft mage. Even as a shenanigans craft mage I'd say it's the strength of the shenanigans craft mage rather than evocation.
My point exactly. Evocation does plenty damage at many levels, but you need to optimize it lest you get walled by hard counters such as launching fireballs at fire immune foes. Sure, others do "more" damage but evocations are actually balanced alomg the lines of what you're expected to fight at the levels you do so.

Also, Arcane Disciple (Luck) or whatever.

Or just don't bother and be an Ardent and tell reality to sit down and get in your back pocket as you pick up Miracle via Dragon Disciple>Spell to Power Erudite>Substitute Power ACF.

[ryu]

My point exactly. Evocation does plenty damage at many levels, but you need to optimize it lest you get walled by hard counters such as launching fireballs at fire immune foes. Sure, others do "more" damage but evocations are actually balanced alomg the lines of what you're expected to fight at the levels you do so.

Also, Arcane Disciple (Luck) or whatever.

Or just don't bother and be an Ardent and tell reality to sit down and get in your back pocket as you pick up Miracle via Dragon Disciple>Spell to Power Erudite>Substitute Power ACF.

Except ''it's balanced for most of the CR system'' still makes it the second weakest school. Wizards aint about that fair fights life. They either win because they did a better job rigging it than the enemy, or lose because they did a worse job. Oh or draw because they couldn't force a win but the enemy didn't have the means to deal with anti death contingency plans.

[Deophaun]

OK, is power doesn't matter, then what mater

Stephen Hawking[2] describes the flight of a fictional astronaut who, passing within a black hole's event horizon, is "stretched like spaghetti" by the gravitational gradient (difference in strength) from head to toe.
There is no gravitational gradient on an infinite plane with infinite mass.

[Vaz]

Except ''it's balanced for most of the CR system'' still makes it the second weakest school. Wizards aint about that fair fights life. They either win because they did a better job rigging it than the enemy, or lose because they did a worse job. Oh or draw because they couldn't force a win but the enemy didn't have the means to deal with anti death contingency plans.

You still obviate fighter and paladins by a factor of teletubby.

Edit; Talking on contingency; That too is an evoc.

Edit 2; lol teletubby. Meant ten, but it's oddly appropriate.

[Jay R]

All attempts to use modern scientific techno-babble to make a spell do something other than the spell effects listed in the book will fail in my universe.

Modern science doesn't apply. Fireballs are proof that energy isn't conserved; flight is proof that momentum is not conserved; feather fall is proof that gravity is not universal.

In fact, in my world, the stationary earth is the center of the universe, the moon and sun are planets, the only elements are earth, air, fire, and water (and ether outside the orbit of the moon), and fire is made of phlogiston. I had a player tell me that he was going to research gunpowder. I told him that if he succeeded, then at the end he'd have a scroll of fireball, because that's the only way to use sulfur and guano to make an explosion.

[ShurikVch]

There is no gravitational gradient on an infinite plane with infinite mass.Proof?

But really, spaghettification isn't the only danger of high gravity: if gravity have one direction, but sufficiently strong, it will crush you like a bug on a windshield

[ryu]

You still obviate fighter and paladins by a factor of teletubby.

Edit; Talking on contingency; That too is an evoc.

Edit 2; lol teletubby. Meant ten, but it's oddly appropriate.

That does more to talk down those classes than talk up evocation. Also we already talked about contingency. It's obviated approximately one way per atom in the observable universe to Sunday by a readily available feat.

[Vaz]

Proof?

But really, spaghettification isn't the only danger of high gravity: if gravity have one direction, but sufficiently strong, it will crush you like a bug on a windshield


http://www.billboard.com/files/styles/article_main_image/public/media/one-direction-up-all-night-album-artwork-billboard-1548.jpg

[Necroticplague]

Proof?

But really, spaghettification isn't the only danger of high gravity: if gravity have one direction, but sufficiently strong, it will crush you like a bug on a windshield

However, that's a massive 'if'. If the plane is infinitely big, then there should be an infinite amount of objects to gravitationally pull on you in all directions. Thus, with infinite things in all directions, the differing directions of gravity should cancel out to produce the same net effect as no gravity.

[Telok]

You still obviate fighter and paladins by a factor of teletubby.

Edit; Talking on contingency; That too is an evoc.

Edit 2; lol teletubby. Meant ten, but it's oddly appropriate.

I have nothing to offer the debate, but that is the best typo/autocorrect that I've seen all week.

[Deophaun]

But really, spaghettification isn't the only danger of high gravity: if gravity have one direction, but sufficiently strong, it will crush you like a bug on a windshield
Are you lost when someone says "It's not the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the end?"

[ryu]

Are you lost when someone says "It's not the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the end?"

I mean technically there's pressure, but then we get to this interesting conversation about density at given points in the environment due to higher or lower order infinities and how they relate to each other. It PROBABLY balances out to something resembling normalcy considering there are natives to all such planes, and descriptions of conditions that don't involve you being immediately pressure crushed like ye old can in the steam cold water experiment.

[ShurikVch]

However, that's a massive 'if'. If the plane is infinitely big, then there should be an infinite amount of objects to gravitationally pull on you in all directions. Thus, with infinite things in all directions, the differing directions of gravity should cancel out to produce the same net effect as no gravity.Except we know it's not like that: Elemental Plane of Earth have "Heavy Gravity", and Elemental Plane of Fire - "Normal Gravity"


...
Posting Oversized Images
Giant pictures that stretch the screen are a bane to people trying to read the boards. Please link to files larger than 400pixels wide, or 500kb, rather than coding them into the post. You may also post images that exceed the width limit under a Spoiler tag along with a note that it is a large image. Please note that images under spoilers still load every time someone views the thread, so large file sizes are still a concern.636x421 :miko: Reporting?


Are you lost when someone says "It's not the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the end?"I dunno whoever said it, but he(/she) was wrong - falling totally can kill you - "terminal velocity" named so not because "sudden stop at the end"

[raygun goth]

All attempts to use modern scientific techno-babble to make a spell do something other than the spell effects listed in the book will fail in my universe.

Modern science doesn't apply.

Modern knowledge doesn't apply.

Science is a method of description. No matter what you do, science would apply just fine.


Fireballs are proof that energy isn't conserved;

No it isn't. Plane of Fire exists, fireball could be drawing energy from it. Or from ambient heat among any number of other planes.


flight is proof that momentum is not conserved;

Not necessarily. It's evidence that if you cast the flight spell, you can dingle with your momentum.


feather fall is proof that gravity is not universal.

I'd buy it, unless IRLz feathers falling are somehow evidence that gravity isn't universal? I don't think the spell alters gravity. I think it alters your mass. If gravity wasn't universal, you'd expect to see a whole lot more than just aberrations that can float around, considering how huge of a survival trait flying is.

These things are more like evidence that their particular spells are exceptions that provide evidence for a general law. It's not that there aren't physical laws similar to the real world ones, it's that there are physical laws like our real ones but with exceptions for particular ritualistic keys.

I agree that it's dumb to assume everything down to the molecular level is going to be exactly the same and use modern understanding of how it all works to make spells, and on that note:


In fact, in my world, the stationary earth is the center of the universe, the moon and sun are planets, the only elements are earth, air, fire, and water (and ether outside the orbit of the moon), and fire is made of phlogiston. I had a player tell me that he was going to research gunpowder. I told him that if he succeeded, then at the end he'd have a scroll of fireball, because that's the only way to use sulfur and guano to make an explosion.

Oh, I definitely concede and agree very heavily on this point. D&D's physics are way different than our own for (glaringly) obvious reasons. However, I do find merit with in-character researching and discovering them, because that is how a wizard do.

This is pretty sweet, though. Is it flat? Does your world have a solid dome-like firmament with windows in it for the rain to come down? Are there waters under the disk of the earth?

Side note: It's old, but this is one of my favorite articles on the subject of D&D physics: https://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

[Vaz]

636x421 :miko: Reporting?


Sure, whatever gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.

[Strigon]

I dunno whoever said it, but he(/she) was wrong - falling totally can kill you - "terminal velocity" named so not because "sudden stop at the end"

I mean, that's true, but it also definitely has nothing to do with the lethality of the fall.
You can't die from falling alone. You can die from hitting something too fast, however, which is a real danger from falling.

[Deophaun]

I dunno whoever said it, but he(/she) was wrong - falling totally can kill you - "terminal velocity" named so not because "sudden stop at the end"
Wait... you think "terminal velocity" is the velocity at which you die?

What school are your night classes at, and have you considered a refund?

[ShurikVch]

I mean, that's true, but it also definitely has nothing to do with the lethality of the fall.Sorry, incorrect term usage.
English isn't my language


You can't die from falling alone.Really?
I know jet fighters don't fly faster than now not because they can't, but because if they would fly faster, pilots will die
But anyway, even if speed along can't kill, then at least you can be fryed by air friction

[Necroticplague]

Except we know it's not like that: Elemental Plane of Earth have "Heavy Gravity", and Elemental Plane of Fire - "Normal Gravity"

In which case, you're 'infinite gravity crushed you' hypothesis is still incorrect, because the plane's traits say otherwise. So if you're trying to kill catgirls by bringing IRL physics in, it doesn't work like that, thanks to forces balancing out. And if you're going purely by the rules of the game, it doesn't work like that, because the rules don't say the gravity is instantly crushing, so it isn't.

[Vaz]

Sorry, incorrect term usage.
English isn't my language

Really?
I know jet fighters don't fly faster than now not because they can't, but because if they would fly faster, pilots will die
But anyway, even if speed along can't kill, then at least you can be fryed by air friction

I'd suggest going back to school. You seem to be struggling.

[Deophaun]

Really?
I know jet fighters don't fly faster than now not because they can't, but because if they would fly faster, pilots will die
The ISS travels close to 5 miles/second without the crew dying. What jet fighters do you know of that even approach that speed?

But anyway, even if speed along can't kill, then at least you can be fryed by air friction
Which has nothing to do with gravity, which is what you are saying kills all by itself.

[Necroticplague]

The ISS travels close to 5 miles/second without the crew dying. What jet fighters do you know of that even approach that speed?

He's probably thinking of the g-forces that come with turning at high speeds (a type of centripetal force). Of course, that's, again, not speed that's harming someone, but acceleration. How fast one gets to extreme speeds is very relevant.

[Pleh]

Sorry, incorrect term usage.
English isn't my language

Really?
I know jet fighters don't fly faster than now not because they can't, but because if they would fly faster, pilots will die
But anyway, even if speed along can't kill, then at least you can be fryed by air friction

Sounds like you're talking about G forces.

Unfortunately, RPG rules for falling aren't too realistic. There are no official rules for frictional forces from reentry nor for G force speeds.

Worth noting is that even with G forces, it isn't moving fast that hurts the pilot. It's the acceleration of reaching those speeds.

Technically, our entire planet moves considerably faster through its orbit than our planes fly through our atmosphere. We aren't hurt because there is no radical acceleration to experience.

The earth could be seen as perpetually falling into the sun and missing, but never escaping the sun's gravity.

[Deophaun]

He's probably thinking of the g-forces that come with turning at high speeds (a type of centripetal force). Of course, that's, again, not speed that's harming someone, but acceleration. How fast one gets to extreme speeds is very relevant.

Worth noting is that even with G forces, it isn't moving fast that hurts the pilot. It's the acceleration of reaching those speeds.
It's not so much the acceleration but the resistance against acceleration within the body, which produces weight. You experience 1 G while standing on the ground, even though you aren't accelerating with respect to Earth, while you experience 0 Gs while in freefall, even though you are accelerating at 9.8 m/s2. If you could design a vehicle that could accelerate every part of the human body at once (as gravity does), there would be no G force experienced regardless of the magnitude of the acceleration.

[Pleh]

It's not so much the acceleration but the resistance against acceleration within the body, which produces weight. You experience 1 G while standing on the ground, even though you aren't accelerating with respect to Earth, while you experience 0 Gs while in freefall, even though you are accelerating at 9.8 m/s2. If you could design a vehicle that could accelerate every part of the human body at once (as gravity does), there would be no G force experienced regardless of the magnitude of the acceleration.

Yes, in a pedantically technical sense. You could say it even more accurately, "if you could design a vehicle that could affect the exact same acceleration to every particle in your body at a rate that was uniform across the body and remaining uniform even as the accelerating force changes".

Even Gravity doesn't always follow these rules. Near the event horizon of a black hole the gravitational force would not be as evenly distributed across a body as it does on the surface of the earth.

But here I thought that just saying, "F=ma" would be sufficient.

[Deophaun]

Yes, in a pedantically technical sense...
It's not pedantic when you have someone arguing that gravity alone or speed alone will kill you, just by virtue of exposure.

[ross]

I think the complaint holds merit. Keep it ONE level meta-reality. Not double.

He can keep it to as many as he wants.

[Pleh]

It's not pedantic when you have someone arguing that gravity alone or speed alone will kill you, just by virtue of exposure.

It is when a less technical answer works just as well. F=ma. It's only ever force that deals damage (in this scenario), so you have to have acceleration.

Gravity can crush your body just by exposure, but earth's surface isn't strong enough to do it (unless your bones are super weak and brittle).

The reason I used the word "pedantic" was because the argument about G force was being leveled against a non native speaker. You were correcting my statement on a technical level past the point that it is likely to be helpful to someone with a limited mastery of the language.

I was trying to keep it (relatively) simple.

[Deophaun]

The reason I used the word "pedantic" was because the argument about G force was being leveled against a non native speaker.
His non-native speaking was not the problem--he fundamentally misunderstood the concept which is why he thought being exposed to infinite gravity would cause you to pop like a balloon as you were torn into a billion pieces flying off in every direction; language barriers do not explain that--and precisely why precision is needed.

When I'm correcting you, I'm not correcting you because I think you do not understand, but because ShurikVch will not understand. So when you say "gravity can kill by exposure," I'm going to correct that to state that, no, it cannot, it requires another object to crush you with.

And yes, gravitational gradients were talked about as to how gravity actually can kill you all on its own.

[ross]

no, it cannot, it requires another object to crush you with.

If I drop a rock on someone and it kills them, what killed them? Me, the rock, or gravity?