Party of 4 VS overpowered "PC"

[pangoo209]

I plan on making a start to a story-arc where the BBEG is a wizard, built from the ground up like a PC. I plan on making him level 16 (so no 9th level spells), but have either very weak or no minions with him.

Assuming a party of 4, what level should the players be (paladin, sorcerer, some sort of DPR or Damage dealer, and some sort of main healer) minimum to have this be a difficult (but not quite deadly) encounter?

[Sans.]

Screw dat'. Go for the epicawesome approach first and foremost: cool description, interesting, thematic spells, and then minmax within that outline.

[pangoo209]

Screw dat'. Go for the epicawesome approach first and foremost: cool description, interesting, thematic spells, and then minmax within that outline.

Okay, that's fair enough, but given that they have about the power and spells given at that level, what level would you recommend the party be? I would guess a bit lower because there is 4 of them, but I wanted to know if anyone had a recommended number to go off of

[DivisibleByZero]

Okay, that's fair enough, but given that they have about the power and spells given at that level, what level would you recommend the party be? I would guess a bit lower because there is 4 of them, but I wanted to know if anyone had a recommended number to go off of

Archmage, right there in the MM for you, has 18d8hp and 9th level spells, meaning he has many more HP than your BBEG a d more spells, and he is CR12

[Lombra]

I'd strongly advise against making any class into an enemy, PvP isn't really polished in this edition. Take the archmage from the MM and use his stats. But of you really want a wizard character then i think that 4 level 10s could make it

[Maxilian]

Use the Archmage (CR12) change the spells as you see fit, at 8 lvl this is still a deadly encounter at lvl 9, it becomes a hard encounter, so i will go with lvl 9 (In the end, the BBEG is a caster that got lvl 9 spells, so you only need to play it smart to make it a deadly encounter again -Dislike the idea of starting at lvl 8, cause without thinking much -AKA without thinking like a true Wizard- you can kill the whole party)

[ProphetSword]

I would definitely give him minions. Otherwise, they might be able to lock him down.

I ran a game earlier this week where a party of 3rd level characters came across an Adult Black Dragon in a swamp. Normally, I would expect them to run. Instead, they used some damn good tactics. They killed that dragon within four rounds. The kicker...the party took no damage from the dragon, who spent the first round breaking free from an entanglement spell, and once he did, he got stunned and never recovered. He was dead before he even got his breath weapon going. Not at all what I expected, but I have to hand it to my players for having a plan that worked.

My point is this: If you give your wizard no minions to soak up some of the players' attention, expect them to beat him quicker than you imagined, possibly without taking a scratch, especially if you're playing it fair and square.

[Lombra]

I would definitely give him minions. Otherwise, they might be able to lock him down.

I ran a game earlier this week where a party of 3rd level characters came across an Adult Black Dragon in a swamp. Normally, I would expect them to run. Instead, they used some damn good tactics. They killed that dragon within four rounds. The kicker...the party took no damage from the dragon, who spent the first round breaking free from an entanglement spell, and once he did, he got stunned and never recovered. He was dead before he even got his breath weapon going. Not at all what I expected, but I have to hand it to my players for having a plan that worked.

My point is this: If you give your wizard no minions to soak up some of the players' attention, expect them to beat him quicker than you imagined, possibly without taking a scratch, especially if you're playing it fair and square.

Damn the luck is strong in that party. Especially since the dragon can decide to succeed in any save that he fails 3 times a day... I am very curious about the details.

[KorvinStarmast]

Damn the luck is strong in that party. I suspect that they had a monk.

[Lombra]

I suspect that they had a monk.

I just don't see how they could have done it since the dragon has legendary resistance. I guess that somehow he couldn't use it, maybe the dragon was resting just after another fight.

[flynnhornfettle]

The Archmage from the MM is perfect. But he'd be even better if you gave him the Arcane Ward trait from the Abjurer in Volo's Guide.

[Kane0]

Also remember that the party gets four times as many actions as the big bad evil mage. Thats why a lot of fights like this feature minions or legendary actions.

[Vogonjeltz]

I plan on making a start to a story-arc where the BBEG is a wizard, built from the ground up like a PC. I plan on making him level 16 (so no 9th level spells), but have either very weak or no minions with him.

Assuming a party of 4, what level should the players be (paladin, sorcerer, some sort of DPR or Damage dealer, and some sort of main healer) minimum to have this be a difficult (but not quite deadly) encounter?

What do you think the 8th level spell will be? Figure out the average hp damage, and then determine how likely that is to KO one (or more players).

Remember, Wizards have terrible action economy, and most of their damage spells are nothing to write home about.

[Cespenar]

In D&D, always add some minions to your bosses. Because action economy.

Or, use guerilla tactics, harry, snipe, retreat, etc. but this is a little taxing on the DM because it may require some planning and extra work regarding the fleshing out of the surroundings.

[ProphetSword]

Damn the luck is strong in that party. Especially since the dragon can decide to succeed in any save that he fails 3 times a day... I am very curious about the details.

Sorry, I made a mistake when I wrote the story above. It was a Young Black Dragon, not an Adult. It still should have been a challenge to a 3rd level party, though, and probably would have been if he had minions with him. As I said, though, I did not expect them to attack it.

My point still stands. Add minions or they will kill your boss quicker than you think.

[DivisibleByZero]

In D&D, always add some minions to your bosses. Because action economy.

This.
You have a paladin. That Paladin alone can potentially deal ridiculous damage. Let's go easy and give him a longsword and compare at level 9 against the 99hp of the D8 Wizard that is the Archmage in the MM.
Round one:
1d8+5 weapon + 1d6 Hunter's Mark +4d8 Divine Smite with a 3rd level slot = 4.5+5+3.5+18 = ~33
Do it again for Extra Attack = ~ 66 damage in round one. Now he's out of 3rd level slots, but who cares?
33 more damage from the entirety of the rest of the party, and that Archmage never even gets a turn.

Solo monsters need to be gigantic bags of HP, or they will simply get facerolled. Unless they have minions.
This is the reason that Legendary Actions and Lair Actions exist.

[Citan]

I plan on making a start to a story-arc where the BBEG is a wizard, built from the ground up like a PC. I plan on making him level 16 (so no 9th level spells), but have either very weak or no minions with him.

Assuming a party of 4, what level should the players be (paladin, sorcerer, some sort of DPR or Damage dealer, and some sort of main healer) minimum to have this be a difficult (but not quite deadly) encounter?
Hi!

My suggestions.

1. Give minions. Just do it. XD
(or, give such a powerful feature to the Wizard, like perma Advantage on Initiative + Contingencies or a ring of Greater Invisibility, that your players will feel cheated. Which is usually not a great thing).

2. Instead of thinking plain CR, think about what spells could be at the same time challenging and fun, without risking a TPK too easily, to force your players to either use spells they usually don't pay attention to, or scheme creative tactics, or both.
If your party is not too much experienced with D&d 5e mechanics/spells, I'd advise favoring single-target save or suck. If they are all experienced and crafty, be wild!
Keep in mind though how much this archenemy is supposed to know about the party: did they harm his plans several times in the past OR gained much reknown by other feats elsewhere? Then he should know much about their abilities. Otherwise, pick an array of spells in the mindset "I have to be prepared for everything".


A. He knows much about the party, especially that they tend to rely on Paladin hasted by Sorcerer and buffed by a Cleric.
- put some Glyph of Warding with some Web, Grease or Bestow Curse (note: not sure every example here is RAW)
- cast any way you can a Maze on the Paladin, and laugh as the party has now lost the core of his usual tactic.,

B. He just knows the general composition, but nothing else.
Prepare Shield and Mirror Image, maybe storing also a Haste, Blur or Greater Invisibility into a Ring of Spell Storing (not sure last is possible).
Put a few Glyphs with Fireballs or Walls (or Silence ^^), and other protective spells.
Prepare a Cone of Cold/Greater Invisibility/etc as a Contingency.



3. Then adapt armor, number of HP and the like, using your experience of how your party managed the previous encounters. If the "counters" for your own tactics are things that are out of reach for players spellcasting, ensure they have a way to win with tactics (even if its a risky one). If players include "prepared" casters such as Druids or Cleric, give them some chances to learn a bit of information about the BBEG (interrogating someone high-ranked in Wizard army, sending some magical scout to try and check the kind of components the Wizard brews/stores, etc).
It also depends on how much you want your party to have a good chance to win obviously. ;)

[JNAProductions]

...

Want me to make a monster that'll fit? I make cool monsters. (Monster as in monster statblock, not an actual monster.)

[Gignere]

Sorry, I made a mistake when I wrote the story above. It was a Young Black Dragon, not an Adult. It still should have been a challenge to a 3rd level party, though, and probably would have been if he had minions with him. As I said, though, I did not expect them to attack it.

My point still stands. Add minions or they will kill your boss quicker than you think.

It happens sometimes on the other hand I had a party of level 4 fight one giberring mouther and they nearly TPKed. No one rolled above a 5 on their saving throws for 4 rounds straight and I crit like three times and knocked out 3 PCs before the last two finally took care of the CR 2 creature.