The Mystic: Balancing and Fixes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Typhon

2017-03-17, 09:57 AM

No.

They really shouldn't.

Psionicists are not Monks. I hate that 4e made Monks psionic for their "We have these power sources and we're making everyone fit into them!" baloney.

Even aside from the thematic differences between "Mystical Essence" and "Mind Power" there's the issue of a Monk getting ahold of BUTTLOADS OF KI by taking a few levels of Mystic and breaking their economy and point values.

It's like the Offspring said: Y'gotta Keep 'em Separated!

This specifically. There would be people taking uevels of mystic and monk for a seriously broken action and power economy. Say go Wu-jen/Four Elements and power trip the avatar or some other seriously broken MC shenannigans.

For balance sake, if they do allow it there has to be a counter produtive point economy. Like 4 PP to 1 ki and 1 ki to 2 PP., just to keep that level of munchkin to a bare minimun. For those who dislike that idea, think of it in the same light as changing from AC to DC and back to AC. Just changing the PPs to ki or vice versa should equal a generic loss of points due to inefficiency in conversion.

JackOfAllBuilds

2017-03-17, 11:36 AM

This specifically. There would be people taking uevels of mystic and monk for a seriously broken action and power economy. Say go Wu-jen/Four Elements and power trip the avatar or some other seriously broken MC shenannigans.

For balance sake, if they do allow it there has to be a counter produtive point economy. Like 4 PP to 1 ki and 1 ki to 2 PP., just to keep that level of munchkin to a bare minimun. For those who dislike that idea, think of it in the same light as changing from AC to DC and back to AC. Just changing the PPs to ki or vice versa should equal a generic loss of points due to inefficiency in conversion.

I would like to direct you to Sorcerers and Warlocks as the spell slot versions of Mystic and Monk Ki. Same as if you converted SorLocks to spell points.

Typhon

2017-03-17, 11:54 AM

I would like to direct you to Sorcerers and Warlocks as the spell slot versions of Mystic and Monk Ki. Same as if you converted SorLocks to spell points.

I would like to direct you to not going to happen like that. By MC a monk/mystic with very few levels in mystic (3) and reaching 2nd level as a monk, you would have as much ki as a 16th level monk. Not happening. Granted the mystic is still UA and not balanced for MC, but that would not fly in the least. Using the conversion I stated, the monk gets 4 more ki in the same scenario which is more equivalent to a 6th level monk. Not game breaking and it more closely matches your character level. .

If using spell points do warlock and sorcerer blend well, yeah but it could be seen as a little OP. Warlock slots are just slots of whatever level they can cast up to. Sorcerers work better with spell points but they are a different animal.

I get your point but just flat switching PSP for ki would literally break the game horribly to MC monk/mystic. I am positive that the monk archtype will have something worked out to the effect of balancing the whole issue, and I really wanto see it. But I would never allow flat PSP/ki adoption to happen in any game where I was the DM. If your DM or yourself as DM like and want it, cool do it.

jaappleton

2017-03-17, 11:59 AM

Kuu Lightwing

2017-03-17, 12:07 PM

That looks pretty nice. Although why did you decide against an extra attack for martials?

Ferrin33

2017-03-17, 03:59 PM

Psionics is specifically its own power source. It needs to be its own thing.

As far as balance... I think it needs to be stronger in some areas. Any ability that spends a Psi point to deal extra damage on a melee attack needs to be ON HIT, and shouldn't cost any part of your action economy. Make it like Divine Smite / Warlock style Smite.

There's enough uses for your bonus action as it is without gimping things.

The reason I didn't make all of them on-hit is twofold;

First reason is that it makes it harder to abuse when stacked, and that stacking them has a cost. Psionic Weapon is the only one that works with both Brute Force and Nomadic Arrow, so that's the one I chose to have stack, as well as making more sense when merged with the Soul Knife, which gets to use two-weapon fighting out of the gate. Nomadic Arrow already has ways to mitigate the chances of missing with its reaction, a way to get extra attacks, and ranged weapons do not innately have a way to use bonus actions, whereas dual-wielding weapons does.

Second reason is to differentiate the disciplines and make them unique.

Of course, Psionic Weapon goes well together with all of them; Brute Force, Nomadic Arrow, and Celerity(after the change), while the others don't. I'm actually quite content with that, nomadic arrow is for ranged, brute force for melee. The only outlier here is Celerity and I'm not happy with that, but also not sure how to change that without allowing people to stack too many things to burst with.

That looks pretty nice. Although why did you decide against an extra attack for martials?

That would make some disciplines stand out too much and be mandatory picks for the subclasses that do, or at least would require the discipline to be balanced around the fact that some get extra attack, which would make those disciplines too powerful for the ones that do or too weak for those that don't. The exact reason I gave Lethal Strike to Soul Knives baseline is to not give them a discipline tax.

JackOfAllBuilds

2017-03-17, 06:10 PM

Ferrin33

2017-03-17, 06:51 PM

16 Ki per short rest, so 48 Ki on an adventuring day. That'd be 6 mystic 5 monk for 32 +3*5=15 =47 Ki. Hardly the level 5 you were implying, that is at level 11
But you're also MAD needing Dex Int Wis and Con, plus you have MORE bigger Ki costs than a single classed monk

Why are you so set on changing the name of the resource?

Typhon

2017-03-17, 07:15 PM

I would like to direct you to not going to happen like that. By MC a monk/mystic with very few levels in mystic (3) and reaching 2nd level as a monk, you would have as much ki as a 16th level monk. Not happening. Granted the mystic is still UA and not balanced for MC, but that would not fly in the least. Using the conversion I stated, the monk gets 4 more ki in the same scenario which is more equivalent to a 6th level monk. Not game breaking and it more closely matches your character level. .

If using spell points do warlock and sorcerer blend well, yeah but it could be seen as a little OP. Warlock slots are just slots of whatever level they can cast up to. Sorcerers work better with spell points but they are a different animal.

I get your point but just flat switching PSP for ki would literally break the game horribly to MC monk/mystic. I am positive that the monk archtype will have something worked out to the effect of balancing the whole issue, and I really wanto see it. But I would never allow flat PSP/ki adoption to happen in any game where I was the DM. If your DM or yourself as DM like and want it, cool do it.

16 Ki per short rest, so 48 Ki on an adventuring day. That'd be 6 mystic 5 monk for 32 +3*5=15 =47 Ki. Hardly the level 5 you were implying, that is at level 11
But you're also MAD needing Dex Int Wis and Con, plus you have MORE bigger Ki costs than a single classed monk

So a level 5 character (3 mystic/ 2 monk)getting 14 Psi and 2 ki but all refered to as ki and used directly as such doesn't equal 16 ki for monk powers. Which if I am not mistaken is the equivalent of what a level 16 single class monk gets. If you convert the PP to ki at a rate of 4 PP to 1 ki then you would only get 3 ki (my math was off after Diff EQ finals). Which still equals character level instead of a much higher level. Use the other conversion and the 2 ki become 4 PP, which is just over a level 4 mystic, pushing your total to 18 PP.

If we use your set up of a level 11 character (6 mystic / 5 monk) that is a combined ki of 32 PP plus 5 ki, for a total of 37 ki. I have no idea where you got +3*5. Cut that up by 4 to 1 and it is a total of 13 ki, which is only 2 off of character level if you went straight monk. While you have more option, you also have more benefits. You can hold focus while you use monk attacks. Plus as you stated, by your model, it would all refill on a short rest which is in no possible way balanced. If only ki resets on a short rest and PP doesn't then it gives a boost but not one not quite as unbalanced.

Do you need more stats that are tuned to optimize the build, yes. But seeing as stats only matter for bonus to whatever and have no effect on ki or PP, figure out if you want to be more monk or mystic and focus in on that. They both have ways of optimizing AC and or gaining a nice pool of HP. The other class would simply be icing on your cake. If you roll for stats, roll well. If you use point buy, figure what you want most from the build and optimize.

JackOfAllBuilds

2017-03-17, 08:41 PM

Monk Ki is SHORT REST RESET, you get MORE than your level each day

So it's monk level * number of short rests

Ferrin33

2017-03-17, 09:16 PM

Monk Ki is SHORT REST RESET, you get MORE than your level each day

So it's monk level * number of short rests

There's no set number of short rests in a day, or inbetween encounters.

I've thought about this a bit when changing "Consumptive Power". (changing it to a short rest reset)

After reducing the Psi points of the Mystic by 7 from 10 onwards, it means they have 7 less PP before a short rest, same as pre-change Consumptive Power after a short rest but 7 less HP, and every short rest after that 7 less HP and 7 more PP. So for getting 7 more PP than the current Mystic, they exchange 14 hp, and every 7 pp after that another 7 hp. Not sure how balanced it would be, or how big the cost is relative to the benefit.

Now why did I bring this up? I don't remember, I got sidetracked. But it does remind me of something; Short rest abilities and relying on them(monks/warlocks) tend to fail when looking at party cohesion. I think it would have been better if the monk and warlock had a bigger pool of ki/pact magic, but restored only a part of it during a short rest. That way the difference between them and a wizard for example wouldn't be so polarizing. It makes me like the consumptive power to short rest even more, especially because it's not a free short rest ability, it costs hp.

Theodoxus

2017-03-17, 11:49 PM

Psi as Ki could work if all Psi is Ki - as in, you get 1 point per level, short rest recharge. BUT, that makes Psions Mystics too close to Warlocks and I don't think most people want another short rest recharging "full caster" (Oh god, please don't start a 100 page flame war on whether Mystics are full casters or not...)

Anyway, I do have legit questions. Mystical Recovery - you have it usable once per turn. Do you mean that, or once per round? Once per turn is the Sneak Attack terminology, allowing you to sneak on a reaction or under the influence of Commanders Strike. So, you're ok with autohealing on a OA that uses Psi points? Or the various Commanding abilities that grant extra turns to use powers? I'd say no, personally... but that's me.

Soul Knife - Parry, I think should still require 2 blades. Just to avoid the stacking of a Parry bonus with a shield, should the SK obtain the proficiency. (I get it's implied by "prepare the bladeS", but it should probably be spelled out - you know how the boards are...)

Shadow Beasts - Honestly, I think it should be 1 beast for 3 points, 2 for 5. Decent compromise between the two levels of power...

ETA:
Now why did I bring this up? I don't remember, I got sidetracked. But it does remind me of something; Short rest abilities and relying on them(monks/warlocks) tend to fail when looking at party cohesion. I think it would have been better if the monk and warlock had a bigger pool of ki/pact magic, but restored only a part of it during a short rest. That way the difference between them and a wizard for example wouldn't be so polarizing. It makes me like the consumptive power to short rest even more, especially because it's not a free short rest ability, it costs hp.

Every class gets something (except Rogue and Barbarian) from a short rest outside of Hit Dice. Sure, Land Druids and Wizards only get their spell recovery one short rest / long rest, but everyone likes a short rest - maybe not at the same time, but party cohesion doesn't tend to fall apart just because the monk or warlock need their mojo back.

Having said that, however, I have been toying with the idea of granting classes that have a limited long rest mechanic, a short rest equivalent. Most easily converted would be Barbarian Rages. Harkening back to Pathfinder, I'd grant them Level uses per short rest (Possibly Level+Con Mod, just to help out the 1st level Barbarian a bit) - BUT, they'd be per round (like PF rage). This would allow Barbarians to use exactly as much rage as they need (because really, how often does a combat last 10 rounds?) and gets them amped up to short rest more often than "uh, Conan hurt, wanna take nap. Rock look nice. nigh night"
We see this already with Monk Ki and Sorcery Points... why not Rage?

Kuu Lightwing

2017-03-18, 01:46 AM

That would make some disciplines stand out too much and be mandatory picks for the subclasses that do, or at least would require the discipline to be balanced around the fact that some get extra attack, which would make those disciplines too powerful for the ones that do or too weak for those that don't. The exact reason I gave Lethal Strike to Soul Knives baseline is to not give them a discipline tax.

Well, most of those disciplines are going to be used for melee archetypes anyways, so it already makes sense to pick them only for those archetypes and not the other ones. Making melee fighters rely on limited daily resource just to work in a fight feels like it's defeating the purpose of a melee fighter.

Zalabim

2017-03-18, 03:30 AM

No.

They really shouldn't.

Psionicists are not Monks. I hate that 4e made Monks psionic for their "We have these power sources and we're making everyone fit into them!" baloney.

I felt like monks fit the psionic philosophy based around a holistic treatment of mind, body and soul, though they didn't use the power points mechanic of the psionic power source, so they mechanically didn't fit in. Of course, I didn't like power points as the mechanic for the power source anyway. Two ways I would have gone with that is spin the monk off in the "soul" power source with Incarnum or make the mechanic for the psionic power source be different effects based on whether its user is focused or unfocused. Basically, the power would depend on your state of mind. In other words, a blending of psychic focus and psionic attack and defense modes, not a different method of accounting.

Every class gets something (except Rogue and Barbarian) from a short rest outside of Hit Dice. Sure, Land Druids and Wizards only get their spell recovery one short rest / long rest, but everyone likes a short rest - maybe not at the same time, but party cohesion doesn't tend to fall apart just because the monk or warlock need their mojo back.
Rangers and Sorcerers too. AKA, my entire party.

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 07:54 AM

Psi as Ki could work if all Psi is Ki - as in, you get 1 point per level, short rest recharge. BUT, that makes Psions Mystics too close to Warlocks and I don't think most people want another short rest recharging "full caster" (Oh god, please don't start a 100 page flame war on whether Mystics are full casters or not...)

Anyway, I do have legit questions. Mystical Recovery - you have it usable once per turn. Do you mean that, or once per round? Once per turn is the Sneak Attack terminology, allowing you to sneak on a reaction or under the influence of Commanders Strike. So, you're ok with autohealing on a OA that uses Psi points? Or the various Commanding abilities that grant extra turns to use powers? I'd say no, personally... but that's me.

Soul Knife - Parry, I think should still require 2 blades. Just to avoid the stacking of a Parry bonus with a shield, should the SK obtain the proficiency. (I get it's implied by "prepare the bladeS", but it should probably be spelled out - you know how the boards are...)

Shadow Beasts - Honestly, I think it should be 1 beast for 3 points, 2 for 5. Decent compromise between the two levels of power...

Fixing the Mystical Recovery, thanks for catching that. Didn't matter much because of Action/bonus action use powers only, though.

Agree on the Soul Knife parry, will add a line.

Shadow Beasts are already changed to cost 5 pp, you might have missed that.

ETA:
Every class gets something (except Rogue and Barbarian) from a short rest outside of Hit Dice. Sure, Land Druids and Wizards only get their spell recovery one short rest / long rest, but everyone likes a short rest - maybe not at the same time, but party cohesion doesn't tend to fall apart just because the monk or warlock need their mojo back.

Having said that, however, I have been toying with the idea of granting classes that have a limited long rest mechanic, a short rest equivalent. Most easily converted would be Barbarian Rages. Harkening back to Pathfinder, I'd grant them Level uses per short rest (Possibly Level+Con Mod, just to help out the 1st level Barbarian a bit) - BUT, they'd be per round (like PF rage). This would allow Barbarians to use exactly as much rage as they need (because really, how often does a combat last 10 rounds?) and gets them amped up to short rest more often than "uh, Conan hurt, wanna take nap. Rock look nice. nigh night"
We see this already with Monk Ki and Sorcery Points... why not Rage?

It's ok that there are differences between the recovery mechanics of classes, good even. I'd like it if wotc didn't polarize the classes as much as they did, though. (in terms of rest mechanics)

Totally agree on the barbarian change. And honestly, I think those Ki and Sorcery mechanics need to come in earlier with the class and give more at higher levels.

Bloodcloud

2017-03-18, 10:26 AM

I think the number of disciplines might need to go down at lvl 1 but talents should be up. Too low on the cantrip side.

Typhon

2017-03-18, 12:51 PM

I think the number of disciplines might need to go down at lvl 1 but talents should be up. Too low on the cantrip side.

I think the talent options need expanded, not so much the number of them. The number of disciplines is a little odd being how many PP you have to how much you can use. The only ready benefit for that number is the number of choices for focus you get. So I am guessing that is what they figured on and put it like that.

Coretex

2017-03-18, 03:10 PM

I Love what you have done here.

The rebalancing seems really well done and I only wish that it could be incorporated into the UA as is.

One thing I would argue is that Psychic weapon is not really a discipline tax for the Soul Knife.
It's focus is completely unnecessary for them.
Ethereal weapon could be nice but will really screw with the use of bonus actions later and become completely unnecessary after level 14.
Now Lethal Strike would surely be very nice, but adding it to the base class just weakens the interest in other disciplines that give similar benefits (for example brute, which I would love to try for the leap and damage boost, becomes a big investment just for leap).
And just to finish off: Augmented Weapon is also entirely pointless for a Soul Knife.

Really it the Psychic weapon discipline is less of a tax and more of a trap, offering only what Soul Knife gets already (which speaks to Soul Knife having too little on its base order if it can be replaced by any other Order with this one Discipline).

Anyway, I really like the rest of the changes. Perhaps Brute Strike should be reduced to 1d8. Reasoning Below:

Bestial form gives claws that do 1d10, but doesn't add to any weapon attack damage.
Psychic Weapon focuses on making a psychic weapon really hurt, thus has the best bonus.
Brute gives a bonus to ANY weapon in addition to being a broadly strengthening discipline. It probably should be below the level of a dedicated attack boost.

Celerity:
I like giving the dash to Blur of Motion but it's cost needs to go up further. It does more than disengage if you are clever about using it to evade enemies.
Disengages are plentiful in the Mystic as is so it seems fine that this part do more.
Surge of Action I would never use as you have it (or even as before). An extra attack on a bonus action will only help people who want to attack on bonus actions, and they will just get TWF. Instead it might be good to have a concentration effect (that this discipline currently lacks) to fill the last slot here.
Maybe something cool and somewhat fluffy like: "Every time you move 10 feet in one direction on a turn your speed carries you an extra 10 feet in that direction for every 10 feet moved. (Momentum carrying you forward).

On reading down I see you changed Lethal Strike on the Psionic Weapon discipline. I think my thoughts above speak to that and I would add that you made it really damn good for the Soul Knife, so you ended up turning Psionic Weapon into a tax after all.

Blade Meld does not need +1 to be useful. It might not be useful often, but giving it +1 is just whacky when weapon attackers will be either Soul Knives or using Psychic Weapon, both of which already have un-droppable weapons and a magic weapon boost.
Instead make it more versatile and let people meld in their foci (for caster multiclasses) or staves, wands, shields, or anything anyone could hold.

Thanks for taking the time to do all of this, I think you did a great job.

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 03:12 PM

Steampunkette

2017-03-18, 03:49 PM

I felt like monks fit the psionic philosophy based around a holistic treatment of mind, body and soul, though they didn't use the power points mechanic of the psionic power source, so they mechanically didn't fit in. Of course, I didn't like power points as the mechanic for the power source anyway. Two ways I would have gone with that is spin the monk off in the "soul" power source with Incarnum or make the mechanic for the psionic power source be different effects based on whether its user is focused or unfocused. Basically, the power would depend on your state of mind. In other words, a blending of psychic focus and psionic attack and defense modes, not a different method of accounting.

Ki is the idea of the Spirit. One harnesses the mind and body to unlock its power.

Psionic Power has jack all to do with the body or the soul. It's all about willpower and the power of the mind, of thought and how ideas and concepts can mold or alter reality.

One is aligning all your elements in harmony to harness your soul. The other is raw mental power and a mind strong enough to use it.

They are worlds apart in core conceit. Even if some styles of storytelling (particularly anime) treat them as essentially identical.

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 04:24 PM

"Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies." -Player's Handbook

"Qi literally translates as "breath", "air", or "gas", and figuratively as "material energy", "life force", or "energy flow".[4] Qi is the central underlying principle in traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts." -Wiki

Psi doesn't have a definition with a long history like Qi does, so how does the Mystic document define it?

"Mystics shun the world to turn their eyes inward, mastering the full potential of their minds and exploring their psyches before turning to face the world."

"Using their inner, psychic strength, they can read minds, fade into invisibility, transform their bodies into living iron, and seize control of the physical world and bend it to their will."

So Ki is the life force flowing through people, and Psi is the power of the mind. That's quite the difference.

Typhon

2017-03-18, 04:30 PM

What are they lacking in things to do in or outside of combat that they need more talents?

What are you missing in the options granted by the current talents?

Utility wise, I don't feel like they really put much effort into it. Light step, mind meld, beacon, and mystic hand kind of have me scratching my head. I get these are cantrip equivalents, but I am not seeing it.

Mind meld is pretty lacking and by level 2 is pretty much repetition and worthless. I know there is that whole memory sharing deal, but that feels a little one sided and tacked on to create relevancy. I question that only because it states it being as being what one wants to share and not a two way road to share. Implied ability is arguable, but an explicit ruling would be nice. I will grant that it is similar to the spell Message, at a faster usage and a little more versatility. But between Telepathic Contact's focus and the class ability Telepathy, I really question its existence.

Mystic hand feels like a half copy of mage hand, but limited to one turn. I will grant that it is closer to the Arcane Trickster ledger domain, than mage hand. But, maybe a longer time than one turn for its usage. It might even have a scaling feature to make it more unique.

Light step is almost usable, but is fighting for the bonus action economy and doesn't provide much of a boost other than an immediate stand up and 10 extra movement feet for a turn. One of these is useful, but the other is the focus effect of at least one discipline.

My issue with beacon is that it makes little sense to have a mystic create internal bio-luminescence on that scale, when it be easier to create a minor globule of spiritual energy for light. Don't get me wrong, I would totally use it if I was trying to use deception to convince people I was a celestial being. Otherwise, wouldn't it be a tactical disadvantage, as in hit the glowing person.

Delusion, blind spot, mystic charm and blade meld are OK. I see where they could easily have a great deal of function for a person adventuring or even in regular role play. Which leaves me feeling like that is a very small window of really usable utility talents.

Combat wise, they are gold. Maybe change out acid on energy beam for something like radiance, but that is negligible either way and mostly me being picky about not seeing acid as an energy type. Psychic Hammer is solid and with a nice control element. Mind Slam has a nice knock down feature for granting advantage. Mind Thrust is very hardy on the damage. Energy Beam is good all around, but I don't know why it isn't an attack roll compared to a saving throw. My only thought on this front is if there should also be some kind of rider for Mind Thrust or any of the Energy Beam damage types. Even then I am fine with the combat talents as they stand.

This is probably just me being picky, but that is what I am seeing. I would reference your document but at the moment, but I am at work and the majority of googles services are off limits.

Coretex

2017-03-18, 04:46 PM

Utility wise, I don't feel like they really put much effort into it. Light step, mind meld, beacon, and mystic hand kind of have me scratching my head. I get these are cantrip equivalents, but I am not seeing it.

Mind meld is pretty lacking and by level 2 is pretty much repetition and worthless. I know there is that whole memory sharing deal, but that feels a little one sided and tacked on to create relevancy. I question that only because it states it being as being what one wants to share and not a two way road to share. Implied ability is arguable, but an explicit ruling would be nice. I will grant that it is similar to the spell Message, at a faster usage and a little more versatility. But between Telepathic Contact's focus and the class ability Telepathy, I really question its existence.

Mystic hand feels like a half copy of mage hand, but limited to one turn. I will grant that it is closer to the Arcane Trickster ledger domain, than mage hand. But, maybe a longer time than one turn for its usage. It might even have a scaling feature to make it more unique.

Light step is almost usable, but is fighting for the bonus action economy and doesn't provide much of a boost other than an immediate stand up and 10 extra movement feet for a turn. One of these is useful, but the other is the focus effect of at least one discipline.

My issue with beacon is that it makes little sense to have a mystic create internal bio-luminescence on that scale, when it be easier to create a minor globule of spiritual energy for light. Don't get me wrong, I would totally use it if I was trying to use deception to convince people I was a celestial being. Otherwise, wouldn't it be a tactical disadvantage, as in hit the glowing person.

In some respects I agree completely: Mind meld is Telepathy at longer range and with a memory share, but nothing more. If it didn't require sight or lasted longer I can see it having a use.

As I understand it however the talents are almost all weaker copies of abilities granted by disciplines. This way gives more versatility if you want a particular trick rather than taking a whole discipline to get it. It doesn't really make sense though, because anyone who cares about that ability is likely to want the whole Discipline anyway.

It feels as though the idea of the Mystic is to have lots of versatility but balance power around the action economy, which I like. Then they made the Talents (Cantrips) extra versatility that is mostly superfluous. (you already get 8+ disciplines)
I think Talents should in general be more like Cantrips. More generally useful, less "cheap versions of something you probably already have".

Typhon

2017-03-18, 05:01 PM

In some respects I agree completely: Mind meld is Telepathy at longer range and with a memory share, but nothing more. If it didn't require sight or lasted longer I can see it having a use.

As I understand it however the talents are almost all weaker copies of abilities granted by disciplines. This way gives more versatility if you want a particular trick rather than taking a whole discipline to get it. It doesn't really make sense though, because anyone who cares about that ability is likely to want the whole Discipline anyway.

It feels as though the idea of the Mystic is to have lots of versatility but balance power around the action economy, which I like. Then they made the Talents (Cantrips) extra versatility that is mostly superfluous. (you already get 8+ disciplines)
I think Talents should in general be more like Cantrips. More generally useful, less "cheap versions of something you probably already have".

Nope, Mind Meld and Telepathy have the same range. The only advantage Mind Meld has is that memory sharing aspect and a statement of needing to have an Int of 2 or better to function.

Don't misunderstand, I like the versatility in the class as presented and understand some of the limitations. However, I wonder how much they kept back and didn't show. There are some mechanics and aspects I was looking forward to seeing and they just aren't even presented here (NOT 3.X TRASH). It is UA though and I am sure there is much that they are still working on. I will be sure to leave comments on the survey.

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 05:33 PM

Re-ordered and cut some of your post in order to make it easier to read and reply, Coretex.

Augmented Weapon is also entirely pointless for a Soul Knife.

On reading down I see you changed Lethal Strike on the Psionic Weapon discipline. I think my thoughts above speak to that and I would add that you made it really damn good for the Soul Knife, so you ended up turning Psionic Weapon into a tax after all.

Augmented Weapon is usable on allies' weapons as well, or further boosts the weapon/Soul Knife you hold, it also gives them powerful ranged options while still offering benefits to their Soul Knives.

Yeah, that change was one of the main reasons for giving it to them baseline, would be a more difficult decision whether to do that if not. Note that you won't find a single Soul Knife build without Psionic Weapon discipline on these boards, that says something already with how crap it was.

You did remind me though; I need to change the Soul Knife's Lethal Strike to have a clause that you don't get to use it on your non-Soul Knife weapons unless you have the discipline known.

Anyway, I really like the rest of the changes. Perhaps Brute Strike should be reduced to 1d8. Reasoning Below:

Bestial form gives claws that do 1d10, but doesn't add to any weapon attack damage.
Psychic Weapon focuses on making a psychic weapon really hurt, thus has the best bonus.
Brute gives a bonus to ANY weapon in addition to being a broadly strengthening discipline. It probably should be below the level of a dedicated attack boost.

Brute Strike only works with melee attacks and costs a bonus action, it doesn't provide any hit or miss assurances that the Nomadic Arrow discipline does so this ability can be more powerful in a vacuum than Speed Dart, for example. I also changed Bestial Claws, you might want to take a look at that.

You can take both Brute Force and Psionic Weapon, one does not invalidate the other.

Celerity:
I like giving the dash to Blur of Motion but it's cost needs to go up further. It does more than disengage if you are clever about using it to evade enemies.
Disengages are plentiful in the Mystic as is so it seems fine that this part do more.
Surge of Action I would never use as you have it (or even as before). An extra attack on a bonus action will only help people who want to attack on bonus actions, and they will just get TWF. Instead it might be good to have a concentration effect (that this discipline currently lacks) to fill the last slot here.
Maybe something cool and somewhat fluffy like: "Every time you move 10 feet in one direction on a turn your speed carries you an extra 10 feet in that direction for every 10 feet moved. (Momentum carrying you forward).

You're only invisible during your movement for one turn and it costs your action and 2 PP. That seems fair to me.

A bonus action for damage can be spent on; Brute Strike, Speed Dart, Surge of Action, or an off-hand attack, let's assume you have the Psionic Weapon discipline to maximize damage output;

Brute Strike adds 5.5*7pp
Speed Dart adds 5.5*7pp
Surge of Action costs 2 pp and adds ~3.5+5(Mod) and allows for a further lethal strike investment of 4.5*7pp
Off-hand attack is 2.5 for a dagger, or 4.5 for a Soul Knife and allows for a further lethal strike investment of 4.5*7pp

Surge of Action and the off-hand attack increase the odds of you getting your 2d8 extra damage from Potent Psionics
Surge of Action allows your Augmented Weapon to be used for another +3 damage.

All of this considered shows that your burst damage will be higher if you spend more PP, but not by a lot, and it'll be more consistent if only because of Potent Psionics bonus damage. 2 pp is worth the extra attack, 3 might be worth it if you're heavily buffed and missed your first attack. So if the choice is between 2 and 3 (1 being too powerful), the 2 means it's slightly weaker to slightly stronger depending on how many buffs you have, but 3 means it's at best on-par. It's fine for it to have a slightly higher potential, as it's an investment in a discipline that doesn't offer any other offensive benefits.

Blade Meld does not need +1 to be useful. It might not be useful often, but giving it +1 is just whacky when weapon attackers will be either Soul Knives or using Psychic Weapon, both of which already have un-droppable weapons and a magic weapon boost.
Instead make it more versatile and let people meld in their foci (for caster multiclasses) or staves, wands, shields, or anything anyone could hold.

Thanks for taking the time to do all of this, I think you did a great job.

Blade Meld only prevents you from being disarmed as-is, giving it a +1 to attack rolls for people who aren't soul knives, ranged, or using a two-handed weapon, is fine. It's a small bonus that doesn't synergize with the current most efficient damage builds, but instead it gives the class more options without changing how the ability itself works. Considered giving it a +2 to attack rolls even, but that seemed to be overdoing it. I kind of like the idea of making it more versatile in addition to the +1 to attack rolls with one-handed melee weapons, but that would require a name change as well for the ability.

Coretex

2017-03-18, 06:34 PM

Augmented Weapon is usable on allies' weapons as well, or further boosts the weapon/Soul Knife you hold, it also gives them powerful ranged options while still offering benefits to their Soul Knives.

Yeah, that change was one of the main reasons for giving it to them baseline, would be a more difficult decision whether to do that if not. Note that you won't find a single Soul Knife build without Psionic Weapon discipline on these boards, that says something already with how crap it was.

Good catch, I didn't notice that function which is actually pretty cool.

The second part here I do not understand. You wanted to make Soul Knife not require Psionic Weapon (which I would argue it already doesn't, really only offering benefits in the early game) but then made Psionic Weapon much better for Soul Knives?

Currently base Soul Knife does everything (and just barely more than) the Psionic Weapon Discipline. I would argue the problem here is that one Discipline can almost completely match the features of a whole Order. Which means that any order can take their powers and also act perfectly as a Soul Knife when the need/mood strikes them because they get bonus Disciplines to use on it. Psionic Weapon doesn't need to be weaker or less useful, but Soul Knife definitely needs to have more to it. Something that allows them to go down a different path than requiring Psionic Weapon but still allows Psionic Weapon to be a valued Discipline for folks who arn't min-maxing.

Brute Strike only works with melee attacks and costs a bonus action, it doesn't provide any hit or miss assurances that the Nomadic Arrow discipline does so this ability can be more powerful in a vacuum than Speed Dart, for example. I also changed Bestial Claws, you might want to take a look at that.

You can take both Brute Force and Psionic Weapon, one does not invalidate the other.

A bonus action for damage can be spent on; Brute Strike, Speed Dart, Surge of Action, or an off-hand attack

I get wanting to have many bonuses you can add to an attack's damage, but there are enough versatile ways to do that through the rest of the Mystic that they deserve to have some distinction made if only for fluff reasons. Brute Strike only costing on a hit is a nice change. I don't see why adding an additional damage die (over the one I would agree with) to a discipline that already has much utility is a worthy change.

You're only invisible during your movement for one turn and it costs your action and 2 PP. That seems fair to me.

That is plenty fair and I really like that part.

Blade Meld only prevents you from being disarmed as-is, giving it a +1 to attack rolls for people who aren't soul knives, ranged, or using a two-handed weapon, is fine. It's a small bonus that doesn't synergize with the current most efficient damage builds, but instead it gives the class more options without changing how the ability itself works. Considered giving it a +2 to attack rolls even, but that seemed to be overdoing it. I kind of like the idea of making it more versatile in addition to the +1 to attack rolls with one-handed melee weapons, but that would require a name change as well for the ability.

It is a cantrip! +1 to weapons (and I see no restriction to Soul Knives or two-Handed, you can always merge one hand and grab with the other) with no duration is a big and always useful boost (to melee attackers ofc). Fluff wise having a weapon merged to your hand would almost always be a disadvantage. Many maneuvers will want more from your hand than simply grasping the sword, which is all you can do if it is merged to you.

On the flip side there are many uses for being unable to have something dropped or disarmed if it doesn't have to be a weapon. Reins of a horse, chain of a prisoner, a key, the things you might not want to lose are multitude. Allowing you to hold a thing forever (no max duration and cancel at will) would be practical enough.

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 07:35 PM

Good catch, I didn't notice that function which is actually pretty cool.

The second part here I do not understand. You wanted to make Soul Knife not require Psionic Weapon (which I would argue it already doesn't, really only offering benefits in the early game) but then made Psionic Weapon much better for Soul Knives?

Currently base Soul Knife does everything (and just barely more than) the Psionic Weapon Discipline. I would argue the problem here is that one Discipline can almost completely match the features of a whole Order. Which means that any order can take their powers and also act perfectly as a Soul Knife when the need/mood strikes them because they get bonus Disciplines to use on it. Psionic Weapon doesn't need to be weaker or less useful, but Soul Knife definitely needs to have more to it. Something that allows them to go down a different path than requiring Psionic Weapon but still allows Psionic Weapon to be a valued Discipline for folks who arn't min-maxing.

Psionic Weapon is a discipline that's extremely close to the goal of the Soul Knife subclass as a whole. I'd rather make Soul Knives a discipline instead of a subclass, to be entirely honest. But to answers your question: I made the Psionic Weapon discipline better to buff the potential of martial mystics in general. Those same changes also meant that I needed to give Soul Knives Lethal Strike in order to not make it a mandatory pick, which works out rather nicely considering they needed a buff and allows them to actually use their off-hand soul knife. Psionic Weapon discipline is still a good pick for them even if they already get the (limited) Lethal Strike because of ranged weapons and buffing their Soul Knives further(or the weapon of an ally). If it's not a viable choice, consider having Augmented Weapon affect both Soul Knives?

I get wanting to have many bonuses you can add to an attack's damage, but there are enough versatile ways to do that through the rest of the Mystic that they deserve to have some distinction made if only for fluff reasons. Brute Strike only costing on a hit is a nice change. I don't see why adding an additional damage die (over the one I would agree with) to a discipline that already has much utility is a worthy change.

The damage die being that high is because of damage potential and making it a worthwhile discipline to compete with other choices. I'm not convinced it should be lowered as I don't think it outshines any other disciplines, it's just another choice right now.

It is a cantrip! +1 to weapons (and I see no restriction to Soul Knives or two-Handed, you can always merge one hand and grab with the other) with no duration is a big and always useful boost (to melee attackers ofc). Fluff wise having a weapon merged to your hand would almost always be a disadvantage. Many maneuvers will want more from your hand than simply grasping the sword, which is all you can do if it is merged to you.

On the flip side there are many uses for being unable to have something dropped or disarmed if it doesn't have to be a weapon. Reins of a horse, chain of a prisoner, a key, the things you might not want to lose are multitude. Allowing you to hold a thing forever (no max duration and cancel at will) would be practical enough.

It's an at-will ability that empowers melee mystics. The restriction is; "As a bonus action, a one-handed melee weapon you hold becomes one with your hand." This excludes two-handed weapons quite clearly, and soul knives because you're not holding them. Can't disagree on the fluff bit too much, except; a firm hold and precise control can be quite useful, you still have wrists, and there's no mention of how the muscles form around the various bits around the weapon which can allow maneuvers you might not be able to with your hand without losing your grip. You can take some liberties here.

Furthermore, the ability is called "Blade Meld", while it doesn't exclude non-bladed weapons, it's a bit of a stretch to allow something like a horse's reigns.

The purpose of the buff was to make Blade Meld a viable, non-mandatory option. I think that with it giving +1 to attack rolls it achieves that goal.

Inchoroi

2017-03-18, 07:54 PM

I actually don't like the Wu Jen much; it feels like it steps too much on the Monk's Four Elements subclass, which has a hard time as it is.

Typhon

2017-03-18, 07:57 PM

I actually don't like the Wu Jen much; it feels like it steps too much on the Monk's Four Elements subclass, which has a hard time as it is.

Feels like it steps on monk and sorcerer too much for me.

Pichu

2017-03-18, 08:02 PM

Give Soulknife disciplines!

Inchoroi

2017-03-18, 08:02 PM

Feels like it steps on monk and sorcerer too much for me.

I've actually been tempted to remove them and add them into 4-Elements Monk, but haven't had much of a reason to, as none of my players want to play one. It's weird, I made this whole world with lots of options, and everyone's made either an elf or human traditional class (we've got a fighter, a cleric, a barbarian, and a rogue).

Ferrin33

2017-03-18, 08:17 PM

Give Soulknife disciplines!

The Soul Knife doesn't embody any group of "powers" aside from his Soul Knives. Which, to be honest, could be a discipline on itself.

You can have Soul Knife disciplines; a ranged soul weapon discipline, a two-handed soul weapon discipline, and possibly a dual-wield discipline. Would remove some of the current baseline abilities of the Soul Knife and move them to the disciplines, giving only a single soul knife as baseline for the subclass, Extra Attack class feature at a higher level etc.

Creating a Soul weapon would cost power points, and the more you spend the stronger it gets(1/3/5/7 for a +0/1/2/3 weapon)

Each discipline gives special abilities that you can use with any soul weapon, giving you something special even if you get multiple soul knife disciplines.

Could have more "Soul Knife" disciplines, like one based around "Consumptive Knife" but stealing health, or a single psi-point if you have that Psychic Focus. But these would not require a Soul Weapon, as they don't grant access to one.

That's 4 disciplines, can people think of more?

Theodoxus

2017-03-19, 02:18 PM

Shadow Beasts are already changed to cost 5 pp, you might have missed that.

No, I caught that - what I was offering was a compromise between the UA 3 PP for 2 and your balance of 5 PP for 2 with "One Shadow for 3 PP and two Shadows for 5 PP".

I personally think on paper, 2 shadows are too strong regardless of cost, but I haven't actually seen it in action, so it's pure theorycraft. But there probably was a reason WotC thought 2 were good - so instead of quibbling over the price, I figured a good compromise was splitting the difference.

Full Description of the revised Discipline, for reference:

Shadow Beasts (3 or 5 psi; conc., 1 min.). As an action, you cause (one for 3) psi or two (for 5 psi) shadows to appear in (an) unoccupied space(s) you can see within 60 feet of you. The shadow(s) last(s) until your concentration ends, and it (they) obey your verbal commands. In combat, roll for their initiative, and choose their behavior during their turns. When this effect ends, the shadows disappear. See the Monster Manual for their stat block.

Ferrin33

2017-03-19, 10:10 PM

Reworking the base Mystic class, so posting the wip of my ideas here so people can comment and review/add ideas.

Mystic Class and Subclasses WIP (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xn2DZXuiBXslvqsLnvWZBNcrO5UdplIZLIVVfRKJclk/edit?usp=sharing)

New Disciplines and Talents WIP (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hAHjSQoQxxy-SKBfkzHcuPTlsHTpC7t8hZfrrQKPZ-4/edit?usp=sharing)

Important missing things are replacements for Psionic Mastery.

Intent of the changes is to give each subclass plenty of diversity in options, each focusing on another area, and to let Disciplines be used to customize your character. (also renamed "Orders" to "Paths", more sensible with how mystics are described.

Snowbluff

2017-03-20, 01:15 AM

Mastery of Light and Darkness either needs the concentration removed from Darkness (with a 1 minute duration) or the duration on the Radiant Beam back (maybe without concentration, as it gives a save each round I guess it's like a worse hold person).

I feel like Nomadic Mind should be rewritten entirely. Having it only changeable once per rest is incongruous with how foci work. Honestly, it feels redundant with how the nomad works. So if you're allowing small bonuses, maybe have it grant a Guidance type effect or a +1 to certain skill rolls?

I actually don't like the Wu Jen much; it feels like it steps too much on the Monk's Four Elements subclass, which has a hard time as it is.

This is a good thing. It means it's a functional class.

Personally, I think StP Erudite is a better term for it, because that's what it is. :P

Theodoxus

2017-03-20, 07:46 AM

So if you're allowing small bonuses...

Nailed it in one partial sentence. This is what's been bugging me about Mystic. The small bonuses. 5E from the printing of the PHB has been all about avoiding small bonuses. Granting advantage instead of a bonus; limiting Christmas Tree magic items through atonement; offering guidance on when to allow boosts in magical power through items; utilizing the Proficiency Bonus as much as possible.

Then, here comes the Mystic, out of left field, blowing all that out of the water. Fiddly +1s and +2s that naturally call into question whether they stack, but they break the social contract for 5E that we all subconsciously agreed to. No fiddly bits. At best, you had a fighting style from a few classes and the occasional double dipping of PB or attribute mods...

Remove the fiddly bits and I'd feel the Mystic will make a much better fit into core of the game, rather than suddenly being the 'must have' because numbers.

NNescio

2017-03-20, 07:49 AM

This is a good thing. It means it's a functional class.

Personally, I think StP Erudite is a better term for it, because that's what it is. :P

Wouldn't that make it totally OP though?

('though in a way, the Wu Jen is kinda unfair in another sense because it gets to mess with spellcasting via Dispel Magic and Counterspell without spellcasters being able to counter their psionic powers because of a lack of Psionics-Magic Transparency in 5e.)

Snowbluff

2017-03-20, 12:20 PM

Nailed it in one partial sentence. This is what's been bugging me about Mystic. The small bonuses. 5E from the printing of the PHB has been all about avoiding small bonuses. Granting advantage instead of a bonus; limiting Christmas Tree magic items through atonement; offering guidance on when to allow boosts in magical power through items; utilizing the Proficiency Bonus as much as possible.

Then, here comes the Mystic, out of left field, blowing all that out of the water. Fiddly +1s and +2s that naturally call into question whether they stack, but they break the social contract for 5E that we all subconsciously agreed to. No fiddly bits. At best, you had a fighting style from a few classes and the occasional double dipping of PB or attribute mods...

Remove the fiddly bits and I'd feel the Mystic will make a much better fit into core of the game, rather than suddenly being the 'must have' because numbers.
Really? I feel like I didn't notice any outside of the soul knife which gets them in lieu of enhancement bonuses from weapons.

OTOH I think advantage to any skill from nomadic mind would be a bit much. OTOOH some foci give advantages on checks.

Wouldn't that make it totally OP though?

('though in a way, the Wu Jen is kinda unfair in another sense because it gets to mess with spellcasting via Dispel Magic and Counterspell without spellcasters being able to counter their psionic powers because of a lack of Psionics-Magic Transparency in 5e.)
Tehehe

Yeah I think transparently should apply. However, I think the Jen uses actual spells and spell slots. Might be interesting in a paladin build

Theodoxus

2017-03-20, 08:14 PM

Really? I feel like I didn't notice any outside of the soul knife which gets them in lieu of enhancement bonuses from weapons.

OTOH I think advantage to any skill from nomadic mind would be a bit much. OTOOH some foci give advantages on checks.

Let's see...

Tough Hide: +2 AC
Feat of Strength: +5 to Str checks (Shouldn't that literally be advantage? Yes yes, no MC - but seriously, how good would that be with advantage from rage?)
Miniature Form: +5 to Dex (Stealth) checks
Microscopic Form: +10 bonus to stealth, +5 AC
Psychic Parry: +1 to +7 bonus to Cha, Int or Wis save
Iron Durability Focus: +1 AC
Iron Hide: +1 to +7 bonus to AC
Mantle of Awe Focus: Int mod to Cha checks.
Mastery of Fire Focus: +2 bonus to rolls for fire damage.
Grasp: +1 to +7 bonus to Str (Athletics) to boost your grapple check against being broken.
Mastery of Wood & Earth Focus: +1 AC
Defensive Step: +4 AC
Augmented Weapon: +3 Hit and Damage
Psychic Assault Focus: +2 Damage w/ psychic damage

So, maybe not a whole lot - but other than the Focus ones, there's no reason the bonuses can't stack... Using Tough Hide with Microscopic and Focused on Iron Durability gives you quite the defensive bonus... all fiddly... (Are you small? Are you still Focused? Did you lose Concentration?)